WEBVTT 00:00:03.390 --> 00:00:05.160 AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, 00:00:05.160 --> 00:00:08.220 democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. 00:00:08.220 --> 00:00:09.390 I’m Amy Goodman. 00:00:09.390 --> 00:00:12.240 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And I’m Juan González. Welcome to all of our listeners 00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:14.580 and viewers around the country and around the world. 00:00:15.630 --> 00:00:18.760 The attorneys general of Maryland and Washington, D.C., 00:00:18.760 --> 00:00:20.820 have filed an anticorruption lawsuit 00:00:20.820 --> 00:00:22.460 against President Trump, 00:00:22.460 --> 00:00:23.730 accusing him of, quote, 00:00:23.730 --> 00:00:26.590 "unprecedented constitutional violations." 00:00:26.590 --> 00:00:28.270 The lawsuit alleges Trump 00:00:28.270 --> 00:00:30.310 has flagrantly violated the Emoluments 00:00:30.310 --> 00:00:33.380 Clause of the Constitution by accepting payments 00:00:33.380 --> 00:00:35.970 from foreign governments since he became president. 00:00:35.970 --> 00:00:39.000 AMY GOODMAN: The lawsuit cites reports that the embassies of 00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:40.720 Kuwait and Saudi Arabia 00:00:40.720 --> 00:00:43.970 and other countries have booked expensive rooms 00:00:43.970 --> 00:00:47.210 and held events at the Trump International Hotel 00:00:47.210 --> 00:00:49.670 on Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington, D.C., 00:00:49.670 --> 00:00:53.190 possibly seeking to win favor with the president. 00:00:53.190 --> 00:00:56.380 D.C. Attorney General Karl Racine announced 00:00:56.380 --> 00:00:58.070 the lawsuit on Monday. 00:00:58.790 --> 00:01:01.210 ATTORNEY GENERAL KARL RACINE: President Trump’s businesses 00:01:01.210 --> 00:01:03.220 and his dealings violate 00:01:03.220 --> 00:01:06.910 the Constitution’s anticorruption provisions, 00:01:06.910 --> 00:01:09.580 known as the Emoluments Clauses. 00:01:09.580 --> 00:01:12.030 My office window is just a few floors above 00:01:12.030 --> 00:01:13.610 where we’re sitting today, 00:01:14.280 --> 00:01:17.370 and I can tell you that as I look out the window 00:01:17.370 --> 00:01:20.280 and see the tower of the Trump International Hotel, 00:01:20.280 --> 00:01:24.020 we know exactly what’s going on every single day. 00:01:24.870 --> 00:01:27.630 We know that foreign governments are spending money 00:01:27.630 --> 00:01:30.120 there in order to curry favor 00:01:30.120 --> 00:01:32.470 with the president of the United States. 00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:36.510 Just one example, the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, 00:01:36.510 --> 00:01:38.740 whose government has important business 00:01:38.740 --> 00:01:41.940 and policy before the president of the United States, 00:01:41.940 --> 00:01:45.730 has already spent hundreds of thousands of dollars 00:01:45.730 --> 00:01:47.880 at the Trump International Hotel. 00:01:49.500 --> 00:01:51.340 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Resistance against Trump’s profiteering 00:01:51.340 --> 00:01:54.340 while in the Oval Office has taken other shapes, as well. 00:01:54.340 --> 00:01:57.480 Last month, artists projected the words 00:01:57.480 --> 00:01:59.260 "Pay Trump Bribes Here" 00:01:59.260 --> 00:02:01.940 on the front of Trump International Hotel. 00:02:01.940 --> 00:02:04.220 Meanwhile, in another setback to the Trump agenda, 00:02:04.220 --> 00:02:06.660 the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit 00:02:06.660 --> 00:02:08.980 unanimously ruled Monday that President Trump 00:02:08.980 --> 00:02:10.940 had overstepped his legal authority 00:02:10.940 --> 00:02:12.330 in signing an executive 00:02:12.330 --> 00:02:14.590 order seeking to ban all refugees 00:02:14.590 --> 00:02:17.460 and citizens from six majority-Muslim nations 00:02:17.460 --> 00:02:18.840 from entering the United States. 00:02:18.840 --> 00:02:21.530 AMY GOODMAN: Well, today, we spend the rest of the hour 00:02:21.530 --> 00:02:22.970 with someone who has been closely 00:02:22.970 --> 00:02:24.700 following the various forms 00:02:24.700 --> 00:02:27.490 of resistance against the Trump presidency: 00:02:27.490 --> 00:02:29.890 the best-selling author, journalist, 00:02:29.890 --> 00:02:31.640 activist Naomi Klein, 00:02:31.640 --> 00:02:33.520 author of The Shock Doctrine 00:02:33.520 --> 00:02:35.420 and also This Changes Everything: 00:02:35.420 --> 00:02:37.120 Capitalism vs. the Climate. 00:02:37.120 --> 00:02:39.020 She’s out today with a new book; 00:02:39.020 --> 00:02:41.810 it’s called No Is Not Enough: 00:02:41.810 --> 00:02:44.800 Resisting Trump’s Shock Politics 00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:47.210 and Winning the World We Need. 00:02:47.210 --> 00:02:49.620 In the book, Klein writes, quote, 00:02:49.620 --> 00:02:51.610 "This is one attempt to uncover 00:02:51.610 --> 00:02:54.510 how we got to this surreal political moment. 00:02:54.510 --> 00:02:56.870 It is also an attempt to predict how, 00:02:56.870 --> 00:02:59.280 under cover of shocks and crises, 00:02:59.280 --> 00:03:01.540 it could get a lot worse. 00:03:01.540 --> 00:03:02.970 And it’s a plan for how, 00:03:02.970 --> 00:03:04.530 if we keep our heads, 00:03:04.530 --> 00:03:07.120 we might just be able to flip the script 00:03:07.120 --> 00:03:09.530 and arrive at a radically better future." 00:03:10.220 --> 00:03:12.240 Naomi Klein, welcome to Democracy Now! 00:03:12.240 --> 00:03:13.990 NAOMI KLEIN: Thank you, Amy. I’m very pleased to be with you. 00:03:13.990 --> 00:03:14.540 And hi, Juan. 00:03:14.540 --> 00:03:15.000 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Hi. 00:03:15.000 --> 00:03:16.900 AMY GOODMAN: It’s great to have you with us. 00:03:16.900 --> 00:03:20.330 You’re beginning your tour across the United States. 00:03:20.330 --> 00:03:22.590 The book is called No Is Not Enough. 00:03:22.590 --> 00:03:24.510 What do you mean? 00:03:24.510 --> 00:03:28.880 NAOMI KLEIN: Well, as you know, Amy, I have been covering crises 00:03:28.880 --> 00:03:31.790 and major shocks to countries for a long time. 00:03:33.020 --> 00:03:35.800 And to be honest with you, when I wrote The Shock Doctrine 00:03:35.800 --> 00:03:37.720 and it came out 10 years ago, 00:03:38.490 --> 00:03:40.580 I actually kind of thought no was enough, 00:03:40.580 --> 00:03:41.790 in the sense that I thought that 00:03:41.790 --> 00:03:44.810 if we understood this particular tactic—and 00:03:44.810 --> 00:03:46.730 what I mean by "the shock doctrine" 00:03:46.730 --> 00:03:51.750 is the ways in which large-scale shocks to societies, 00:03:51.750 --> 00:03:54.510 large-scale crises, economic crises, 00:03:54.510 --> 00:03:57.150 wars, coups, natural disasters, 00:03:57.150 --> 00:04:00.760 has systematically been used by right-wing governments, 00:04:00.760 --> 00:04:03.780 using the disorientation and the panic in society, 00:04:03.780 --> 00:04:06.390 to push through a very radical, 00:04:06.390 --> 00:04:07.860 pro-corporate agenda. 00:04:07.860 --> 00:04:09.730 You know, and I have been on the show many times 00:04:09.730 --> 00:04:12.090 talking about examples of this, like Hurricane Katrina 00:04:12.710 --> 00:04:17.130 and how that tragedy and the dislocation 00:04:17.130 --> 00:04:18.500 of the residents of that city 00:04:18.500 --> 00:04:21.220 was used to privatize the school system, 00:04:21.220 --> 00:04:22.880 attack public housing, 00:04:22.880 --> 00:04:25.620 introduce a tax-free free enterprise zone 00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:29.550 under George Bush’s administration. 00:04:29.550 --> 00:04:31.960 But after that book came out—it came out 00:04:31.960 --> 00:04:35.760 in 2007—we had the 2008 financial crisis. 00:04:35.760 --> 00:04:39.210 And all around the world, people did say no. 00:04:39.210 --> 00:04:40.980 You know, people knew 00:04:40.980 --> 00:04:43.580 that they were being forced to pay for the crisis of the bankers. 00:04:43.580 --> 00:04:45.440 They took to the streets. They occupied plazas. 00:04:45.440 --> 00:04:46.800 They stayed there for months. 00:04:46.800 --> 00:04:48.410 They said, "No. No more." 00:04:50.780 --> 00:04:52.580 But they didn’t, in so many cases, 00:04:52.580 --> 00:04:55.740 have a plan for what to do instead, beyond just, 00:04:55.740 --> 00:04:57.620 you know, we don’t want the austerity, 00:04:57.620 --> 00:04:59.350 we don’t want the attacks. 00:04:59.350 --> 00:05:03.640 There wasn’t a credible plan put forward, in many cases, 00:05:03.640 --> 00:05:06.000 for how we could have a different 00:05:06.000 --> 00:05:07.950 and better economy, 00:05:07.950 --> 00:05:10.820 that responded to the underlying reasons 00:05:10.820 --> 00:05:12.970 why we are seeing these shocks. 00:05:12.970 --> 00:05:15.940 And so, I think in this moment where Trump 00:05:15.940 --> 00:05:17.650 is this sort of rolling shock—you know, 00:05:17.650 --> 00:05:19.760 every day there’s some shocking news. 00:05:19.760 --> 00:05:22.600 We just heard a few examples of it in the headlines. 00:05:22.600 --> 00:05:24.020 Behind the scenes, we’re seeing 00:05:24.020 --> 00:05:26.690 that same agenda advance very quickly. 00:05:26.690 --> 00:05:28.770 I’m concerned about what’s going to happen 00:05:28.770 --> 00:05:31.910 if they have even larger shocks to exploit, 00:05:31.910 --> 00:05:34.380 not the shock of just Trump himself 00:05:34.380 --> 00:05:37.090 and what he’s doing and the various investigations, 00:05:37.090 --> 00:05:39.460 the various gaffes, the various palace dramas, 00:05:39.460 --> 00:05:41.060 the rest of it, 00:05:41.060 --> 00:05:43.470 but I think it’s really crucial that 00:05:43.470 --> 00:05:44.670 in preparing for that, 00:05:44.670 --> 00:05:48.240 we understand that there has to be a yes, 00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:50.740 what we want instead of the shock doctrine. 00:05:50.740 --> 00:05:52.080 So that’s why I called it No Is Not Enough 00:05:52.080 --> 00:05:53.860 and put a great big "No" on the cover, 00:05:53.860 --> 00:05:56.660 because I just want to make sure no one misses that message, 00:05:56.660 --> 00:05:59.660 because it’s a hard-won insight after many years. 00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:01.480 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, one of the interesting things, 00:06:01.480 --> 00:06:03.120 to me, in reading your book 00:06:03.120 --> 00:06:06.560 was the—how you connect, for instance, 00:06:06.560 --> 00:06:10.840 the work you had done long ago on branding 00:06:10.840 --> 00:06:12.740 and how the Trump administration 00:06:12.740 --> 00:06:14.640 has become the branding of the president 00:06:14.640 --> 00:06:17.520 and how he was able to understand 00:06:17.520 --> 00:06:19.310 the importance of branding way 00:06:19.310 --> 00:06:20.710 back during when he was doing 00:06:20.710 --> 00:06:21.870 the Apprentice program. NAOMI KLEIN: Right. 00:06:21.870 --> 00:06:24.500 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: In fact, you talk about, you analyze The Apprentice 00:06:24.500 --> 00:06:27.320 and its impact on American consciousness. 00:06:27.320 --> 00:06:30.060 NAOMI KLEIN: Right. So, I think we need to understand that Trump 00:06:30.060 --> 00:06:31.830 is not playing by the rules of politics. 00:06:31.830 --> 00:06:33.460 He’s playing by the rules of branding. 00:06:33.460 --> 00:06:35.510 And, you know, there have been 00:06:35.510 --> 00:06:38.010 presidential conflicts of interest before. 00:06:38.010 --> 00:06:41.270 There have been presidents with business interests before. 00:06:41.270 --> 00:06:44.470 But there has never been a fully commercialized global brand 00:06:44.470 --> 00:06:46.010 as a sitting U.S. president. 00:06:46.010 --> 00:06:47.670 That is unprecedented. 00:06:47.670 --> 00:06:49.550 And the reason that’s unprecedented is 00:06:49.550 --> 00:06:52.120 because this is a relatively new business model. 00:06:52.120 --> 00:06:53.760 It is—the business 00:06:53.760 --> 00:06:56.500 model that has been adopted 00:06:56.500 --> 00:06:57.940 by the Trump Organization 00:06:57.940 --> 00:07:01.550 is really not one that existed before the 1990s. 00:07:01.550 --> 00:07:03.450 It is what I called in my first book, 00:07:03.450 --> 00:07:06.800 No Logo, the hollow brand model, right? 00:07:06.800 --> 00:07:11.990 And the model comes out of the fact that in the—so, 00:07:11.990 --> 00:07:14.570 the original history of branding is you have a product—you know, 00:07:14.570 --> 00:07:17.370 maybe it was rice, maybe it was beans, 00:07:17.370 --> 00:07:21.610 maybe it was shoes—you’re a manufacturer first, 00:07:21.610 --> 00:07:23.210 but you want people to buy your product, 00:07:23.210 --> 00:07:24.960 so you brand it. 00:07:24.960 --> 00:07:26.640 You put a logo on it. 00:07:26.640 --> 00:07:28.840 You identify it with, you know, 00:07:28.840 --> 00:07:30.600 some sort of iconic image, 00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:32.410 like Uncle Ben’s or whatever it is, right? 00:07:32.410 --> 00:07:33.890 You give it a kind of personality. 00:07:35.170 --> 00:07:39.370 That stopped working in the 1980s. Customers got savvy to it. 00:07:39.370 --> 00:07:42.950 I had—probably the most requoted quote of mine 00:07:42.950 --> 00:07:45.350 in No Logo is from an advertising executive who said, 00:07:45.350 --> 00:07:46.890 "Consumers are like roaches. 00:07:46.890 --> 00:07:50.420 You spray them and spray them, and they become immune after a while." 00:07:50.420 --> 00:07:53.910 It’s just lovely insight from a marketer, yeah, 00:07:53.910 --> 00:07:55.260 about how they see customers. 00:07:55.260 --> 00:07:57.990 So, marketing started to get more ambitious, 00:07:57.990 --> 00:08:00.060 and then you started to see these companies 00:08:00.060 --> 00:08:03.420 that position themselves as lifestyle brands. 00:08:03.420 --> 00:08:06.710 And they said, "No, we’re not product-based companies. 00:08:06.710 --> 00:08:10.900 We are in the business of selling ideas and identity." 00:08:10.900 --> 00:08:12.650 Nike was the ultimate example of this. 00:08:12.650 --> 00:08:14.360 Nike CEO Phil Knight stepped forward 00:08:14.360 --> 00:08:15.870 and said, "We are not a sneaker company. 00:08:15.870 --> 00:08:17.250 We are not a shoe company. 00:08:17.250 --> 00:08:18.700 We are about the idea 00:08:18.700 --> 00:08:21.360 of transcendence through sports," right? 00:08:21.360 --> 00:08:22.970 Starbucks wasn’t a coffee company; 00:08:22.970 --> 00:08:24.820 it was about the idea of community 00:08:24.820 --> 00:08:26.160 and the third place. 00:08:26.160 --> 00:08:29.080 And, you know, Disney was family. And all this. 00:08:29.080 --> 00:08:31.000 So, there was these—you know, 00:08:31.000 --> 00:08:32.710 the corporations would have their séances 00:08:32.710 --> 00:08:35.200 and come forward and say, "We have our grand idea." 00:08:35.920 --> 00:08:38.190 This changed manufacturing dramatically, 00:08:38.190 --> 00:08:40.160 because once you decide that you’re in the business 00:08:40.160 --> 00:08:42.070 of selling an idea as opposed to aproduct, 00:08:42.070 --> 00:08:44.390 well, it doesn’t really matter who makes your product. 00:08:44.390 --> 00:08:46.860 What you want to do is you want to own 00:08:46.860 --> 00:08:49.210 as little sort of hard infrastructure as possible, 00:08:49.210 --> 00:08:53.070 and your real value is your name and how you build that up. 00:08:53.070 --> 00:08:57.560 So, Trump was more of a traditional business in the 1980s. 00:08:57.560 --> 00:08:59.980 And Trump was just sort of like a guy who built buildings, 00:08:59.980 --> 00:09:02.530 but—built buildings and had a flair for marketing. 00:09:02.530 --> 00:09:04.810 But the game changer for him was The Apprentice. 00:09:04.810 --> 00:09:06.850 That’s when he got to—he realized 00:09:06.850 --> 00:09:10.520 he could enter the stratosphere of the superbrands. 00:09:10.520 --> 00:09:12.250 And his business model changed. 00:09:12.250 --> 00:09:15.340 It no longer became about building the building 00:09:15.930 --> 00:09:17.380 or buying the building. 00:09:17.380 --> 00:09:19.050 That was for other people to do. 00:09:19.050 --> 00:09:21.790 He was about building up the Trump name 00:09:21.790 --> 00:09:24.450 and then selling it and leasing it 00:09:24.450 --> 00:09:25.750 in as many different ways as possible. 00:09:25.750 --> 00:09:27.300 So you’ve got the Trump water and Trump 00:09:27.300 --> 00:09:28.830 Steaks and Trump’s 00:09:28.830 --> 00:09:31.570 very so-called dodgy university. 00:09:31.570 --> 00:09:33.640 And so many of the towers, 00:09:33.640 --> 00:09:35.010 the Trump towers around the world, 00:09:35.010 --> 00:09:36.690 the Trump resorts around the world, 00:09:36.690 --> 00:09:38.840 those are not owned by the Trump Organization. 00:09:38.840 --> 00:09:41.210 The Trump Organization is paid millions of dollars 00:09:41.880 --> 00:09:45.160 by these developers for the privilege 00:09:45.160 --> 00:09:47.310 of putting the Trump name on those towers. 00:09:47.310 --> 00:09:51.790 So, this has huge implications for how we understand the corruption 00:09:51.790 --> 00:09:53.970 at the heart of Trump’s decision 00:09:53.970 --> 00:09:57.510 to merge his global brand with the U.S. government, 00:09:57.510 --> 00:10:00.590 which is what is underway on so many different fronts, 00:10:00.590 --> 00:10:02.260 because, honestly, what it means is, 00:10:02.260 --> 00:10:04.370 every time we say the word "Trump," 00:10:04.900 --> 00:10:07.340 even when we’re saying it in a negative light, 00:10:08.080 --> 00:10:09.650 we’re doing his marketing for him. 00:10:09.650 --> 00:10:10.920 So, you know, with this lawsuit 00:10:10.920 --> 00:10:12.720 that was just announced by the attorneys general 00:10:12.720 --> 00:10:14.720 of New York and D.C.— 00:10:14.720 --> 00:10:15.360 AMY GOODMAN: Maryland. 00:10:15.360 --> 00:10:18.230 NAOMI KLEIN: Oh, sorry, of Maryland and D.C.—yeah, 00:10:18.230 --> 00:10:22.520 maybe New York will get in on it—you know, 00:10:22.520 --> 00:10:23.860 it’s getting at part of it, 00:10:23.860 --> 00:10:25.850 in the sense that foreign governments 00:10:25.850 --> 00:10:27.450 are clearly favoring Trump 00:10:27.450 --> 00:10:30.390 hotels as a way to ingratiate themselves to the president. 00:10:30.390 --> 00:10:33.360 But the conflict is more continuous than that, 00:10:34.740 --> 00:10:37.080 because Trump’s big idea, 00:10:37.080 --> 00:10:39.520 the idea at the center of his brand, 00:10:40.210 --> 00:10:42.940 is the power that comes with wealth. 00:10:42.940 --> 00:10:46.570 And so, the more powerful he is—and, of course, 00:10:46.570 --> 00:10:49.350 he happens somehow to have got himself 00:10:49.350 --> 00:10:52.970 the most powerful job in the world—that fact 00:10:52.970 --> 00:10:56.140 alone is massively increasing the value of his brand, 00:10:56.140 --> 00:10:59.370 which his sons are cashing in on busily 00:10:59.370 --> 00:11:03.050 on every front by selling that name for inflated prices. 00:11:03.050 --> 00:11:04.870 And, of course, Trump, by not divesting 00:11:04.870 --> 00:11:06.610 from the Trump Organization, 00:11:06.610 --> 00:11:08.510 profits from that as president. 00:11:08.510 --> 00:11:11.430 So the conflict is baked in, 00:11:11.430 --> 00:11:12.810 happening every second. 00:11:12.810 --> 00:11:15.840 AMY GOODMAN: So you talk about jamming the Trump brand. How? 00:11:16.560 --> 00:11:21.430 NAOMI KLEIN: Right. So, this phrase, "culture jamming," 00:11:21.430 --> 00:11:25.050 was very much in vogue in the 1990s 00:11:25.050 --> 00:11:26.980 when these superbrands sort of emerged 00:11:26.980 --> 00:11:28.810 and started kind of projecting their names 00:11:28.810 --> 00:11:30.810 onto ever more surfaces. 00:11:30.810 --> 00:11:33.060 You know, maybe you remember some of the campaigns, 00:11:33.060 --> 00:11:36.460 like "Just don’t do it," which—exposing the sweatshops 00:11:36.460 --> 00:11:38.940 that Nike products were being made under; 00:11:40.070 --> 00:11:42.850 you know, "Joe Cancer," 00:11:42.850 --> 00:11:44.260 taking on Joe Camel, 00:11:45.920 --> 00:11:47.700 this, you know, cartoon character 00:11:47.700 --> 00:11:49.700 which is basically selling cigarettes to kids. 00:11:50.610 --> 00:11:53.760 So, yeah, I’ve been thinking about: How do we jam the Trump brand? 00:11:53.760 --> 00:11:55.710 Because I think you have to kind of accept Trump 00:11:55.710 --> 00:11:57.730 on his own terms to some degree. 00:11:57.730 --> 00:12:00.660 And this idea that we’re going to somehow catch him out, 00:12:01.640 --> 00:12:04.870 damage him by proving that he is corrupt, 00:12:05.400 --> 00:12:08.680 you know, that he treats people awfully, that’s his brand. 00:12:08.680 --> 00:12:11.240 His brand is that he’s the boss, 00:12:11.240 --> 00:12:13.680 and he gets to do whatever he wants. 00:12:13.680 --> 00:12:16.470 That’s what he has been selling now for many, many decades. 00:12:16.470 --> 00:12:16.860 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, along with that— 00:12:16.860 --> 00:12:18.300 NAOMI KLEIN: So the more he gets away with it—yeah. 00:12:18.300 --> 00:12:21.910 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: But to get back to The Apprentice, The Apprentice, 00:12:21.910 --> 00:12:23.820 as you so aptly describe, 00:12:23.820 --> 00:12:28.460 was really based on selling a cutthroat brand of capitalism 00:12:28.460 --> 00:12:30.970 to the American people as the way that people should be. 00:12:30.970 --> 00:12:31.620 And— 00:12:31.620 --> 00:12:33.080 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah, it’s televised class war. 00:12:33.080 --> 00:12:34.310 I mean, it opens up 00:12:34.310 --> 00:12:36.280 with an image of a homeless man 00:12:36.280 --> 00:12:38.650 sleeping rough on the streets of New York, 00:12:38.650 --> 00:12:41.770 and then cuts to Trump in his limousine. 00:12:41.770 --> 00:12:43.380 And it’s basically like "Who do you want to be? 00:12:43.380 --> 00:12:44.840 The homeless guy or Trump?" Right? 00:12:44.840 --> 00:12:46.680 And so, you know, this happens. 00:12:47.250 --> 00:12:51.610 You know, the show launches at a time 00:12:51.610 --> 00:12:55.520 when people understand that this—that neoliberalism 00:12:55.520 --> 00:12:56.980 is not lifting all boats. 00:12:56.980 --> 00:12:59.650 It is this cutthroat world of winners and losers. 00:12:59.650 --> 00:13:01.350 And which one do you want to be? 00:13:01.350 --> 00:13:04.390 And that was very sharply played out in The Apprentice, 00:13:04.390 --> 00:13:06.860 and it got more brutal as the show went on. 00:13:06.860 --> 00:13:08.100 And, you know, I didn’t know this until 00:13:08.100 --> 00:13:09.690 I started researching this book, I have to admit. 00:13:09.690 --> 00:13:11.540 I had maybe watched The Apprentice a couple of times. 00:13:11.540 --> 00:13:13.420 I didn’t know that in later seasons 00:13:13.420 --> 00:13:17.360 they deported half of their contestants 00:13:17.360 --> 00:13:19.150 into tents in the backyard. 00:13:19.150 --> 00:13:20.740 They called it Trump’s trailer park. 00:13:21.370 --> 00:13:25.560 And, you know, they would overlay the sound 00:13:25.560 --> 00:13:27.690 of like howling dogs at night. 00:13:27.690 --> 00:13:29.360 And it was this idea 00:13:29.360 --> 00:13:32.480 of creating drama out of the massive 00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:34.740 inequalities of our economic system. 00:13:34.740 --> 00:13:37.940 The people who were sleeping in the backyard, 00:13:37.940 --> 00:13:40.790 who had been deported into Trump’s trailer park, 00:13:40.790 --> 00:13:42.380 would peak over the hedges 00:13:42.380 --> 00:13:44.930 to look at the people living in the mansion, 00:13:44.930 --> 00:13:46.230 you know, drinking champagne 00:13:46.230 --> 00:13:48.160 and floating around in the swimming pool, right? 00:13:48.160 --> 00:13:51.200 So, I think that this is part of his appeal, 00:13:51.200 --> 00:13:53.760 like not to challenge this massive inequality, 00:13:53.760 --> 00:13:56.830 but to promise that if you play by my rules, 00:13:56.830 --> 00:13:58.030 you end up in the mansion. 00:13:58.680 --> 00:14:00.300 And it will be even sweeter 00:14:00.300 --> 00:14:02.750 because people are sleeping outside, right? 00:14:02.750 --> 00:14:03.870 Because you won. 00:14:03.870 --> 00:14:08.550 And, you know, I think that this has been very much the message 00:14:08.550 --> 00:14:11.100 that he ran on as president, right? 00:14:11.100 --> 00:14:13.940 The promise of lifting you up, the chosen few— 00:14:13.940 --> 00:14:15.800 right?—the white working class, 00:14:15.800 --> 00:14:20.110 and at the explicit extent—at 00:14:20.110 --> 00:14:24.030 the explicit expense of brutality 00:14:24.030 --> 00:14:26.170 against people of color, right? 00:14:26.170 --> 00:14:29.220 And so, that formula that he honed, 00:14:29.220 --> 00:14:30.460 that was so profitable, 00:14:30.460 --> 00:14:33.200 that got such great ratings on The Apprentice, 00:14:33.850 --> 00:14:36.230 is now—the world is his reality show. 00:14:36.230 --> 00:14:38.570 And, you know, I quote Newt Gingrich in the book, 00:14:39.090 --> 00:14:40.920 where Newt Gingrich was asked—and 00:14:40.920 --> 00:14:43.990 he’s been such a booster of Trump’s—what he thought of Trump 00:14:43.990 --> 00:14:47.220 staying on as executive producer of Celebrity Apprentice, 00:14:47.220 --> 00:14:50.310 and Newt Gingrich, in a rare criticism of Trump, 00:14:50.310 --> 00:14:51.820 said that he thought it was a bad idea, 00:14:51.820 --> 00:14:54.330 because Trump was now the executive producer 00:14:54.330 --> 00:14:56.870 of a show called The United States. 00:14:56.870 --> 00:15:00.580 And I thought that was, you know, a rare moment of truth, right? 00:15:00.580 --> 00:15:02.330 We’ve all been recruited as extras into this show. 00:15:02.330 --> 00:15:04.240 AMY GOODMAN: Well, I think the Trumps have declared this week 00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:06.530 "Apprentice Week," and he and his daughter 00:15:06.530 --> 00:15:07.870 and adviser Ivanka Trump 00:15:07.870 --> 00:15:09.750 are going to Wisconsin today, 00:15:09.750 --> 00:15:11.250 where they’re going to Waukesha, 00:15:11.250 --> 00:15:14.190 where a GE plant is closing, 00:15:14.190 --> 00:15:16.150 and it’s heading to Canada, where you’re from. 00:15:16.150 --> 00:15:19.280 And we’re going to talk about all this and more with Naomi Klein. 00:15:19.280 --> 00:15:22.030 Her new book is out; it is called 00:15:22.030 --> 00:15:24.050 No Is Not Enough: 00:15:24.050 --> 00:15:26.120 Resisting Trump’s Shock Politics 00:15:26.120 --> 00:15:28.340 and Winning the World We Need. 00:15:28.340 --> 00:15:31.410 We’ll also talk about this weekend in Chicago, 00:15:31.410 --> 00:15:32.610 where we both were. 00:15:32.610 --> 00:15:36.330 Bernie Sanders held a major event, the People’s Summit. 00:15:36.330 --> 00:15:38.160 Four thousand people came. 00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:40.790 You’ll hear some of what he has to say. 00:15:40.790 --> 00:15:43.100 And also, what happened in Britain 00:15:43.100 --> 00:15:45.660 with Jeremy Corbyn, the Labour leader? 00:15:45.660 --> 00:15:48.320 Is he soon to be the British prime minister? Stay with us. 00:15:48.320 --> 00:15:48.970 [break] 00:15:48.970 --> 00:16:10.640 AMY GOODMAN: "Terrifying Sight" 00:16:10.640 --> 00:16:12.960 by Ani DiFranco, here on Democracy Now!, 00:16:12.960 --> 00:16:16.210 democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. 00:16:16.210 --> 00:16:18.650 I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. 00:16:18.650 --> 00:16:21.990 This weekend, 4,000 people packed the McCormick 00:16:21.990 --> 00:16:25.160 Place convention center for a People’s Summit. 00:16:25.160 --> 00:16:26.360 Independent senator, 00:16:26.360 --> 00:16:28.950 former presidential candidate Bernie Sanders 00:16:28.950 --> 00:16:31.330 delivered the keynote speech. 00:16:31.330 --> 00:16:32.530 During his speech, 00:16:32.530 --> 00:16:35.660 he repeatedly criticized the Democratic Party, 00:16:35.660 --> 00:16:37.610 calling it an "absolute failure" 00:16:37.610 --> 00:16:41.160 and blaming it for the election of President Trump. 00:16:41.800 --> 00:16:44.810 SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: I’m often asked by the media and others: 00:16:44.810 --> 00:16:48.340 How did it come about that Donald Trump, 00:16:48.340 --> 00:16:51.720 the most unpopular presidential candidate 00:16:52.240 --> 00:16:54.110 in the modern history of our country, 00:16:54.630 --> 00:16:55.900 won the election? 00:16:57.180 --> 00:16:58.600 And my answer 00:16:58.600 --> 00:17:07.260 is—and my answer 00:17:07.260 --> 00:17:10.940 is that Trump didn’t win the election; 00:17:10.940 --> 00:17:13.700 the Democratic Party lost the election. 00:17:18.090 --> 00:17:23.470 Let us—let us be very, very clear: 00:17:24.220 --> 00:17:29.150 The current model— the current model 00:17:29.150 --> 00:17:32.440 and the current strategy of the Democratic Party 00:17:32.440 --> 00:17:34.670 is an absolute failure. 00:17:39.630 --> 00:17:44.640 This is not—this is not my opinion. 00:17:44.640 --> 00:17:46.870 This is the facts. 00:17:49.940 --> 00:17:53.920 You know, we focus a lot on the presidential election, 00:17:53.920 --> 00:17:56.000 but we also have to understand 00:17:56.550 --> 00:18:00.090 that Democrats have lost the U.S. House, 00:18:00.090 --> 00:18:02.010 the U.S. Senate. 00:18:02.010 --> 00:18:06.050 Republicans now control almost two-thirds 00:18:06.050 --> 00:18:08.450 of the governors’ chairs throughout the country. 00:18:09.710 --> 00:18:12.100 And over the last nine years, 00:18:12.100 --> 00:18:16.520 Democrats have lost almost 1,000 00:18:16.520 --> 00:18:19.030 legislative seats in states 00:18:19.030 --> 00:18:20.780 all across this country. 00:18:20.780 --> 00:18:25.380 Today—today, in almost half of the states 00:18:25.380 --> 00:18:26.630 in America, 00:18:26.630 --> 00:18:27.870 Democratic Party 00:18:27.870 --> 00:18:31.820 has almost no political presence at all. 00:18:32.480 --> 00:18:34.450 Now, if that’s not a failure, 00:18:35.020 --> 00:18:37.180 if that’s not a failed model, 00:18:37.180 --> 00:18:39.410 I don’t know what a failed model is. 00:18:45.260 --> 00:18:48.480 AMY GOODMAN: That’s Bernie Sanders speaking on Saturday night 00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:51.430 at the People’s Summit in Chicago 00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:54.110 at the McCormick Place convention center. 00:18:54.790 --> 00:18:58.100 It was an event that was organized by many different groups, 00:18:58.100 --> 00:19:01.760 primarily the Nurses United, 00:19:01.760 --> 00:19:03.170 nurses around the country. 00:19:03.170 --> 00:19:04.780 About a thousand nurses were there. 00:19:04.780 --> 00:19:07.190 Naomi, we were both there. 00:19:07.820 --> 00:19:11.170 Can you talk about the significance of what Bernie Sanders said? 00:19:11.170 --> 00:19:12.560 Now, remember, he is in 00:19:12.560 --> 00:19:13.850 the Democratic leadership— NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. 00:19:13.850 --> 00:19:14.830 AMY GOODMAN: —right now of the Senate. 00:19:14.830 --> 00:19:17.170 He is supposedly like the outreach person. 00:19:17.170 --> 00:19:18.780 He was brought into it. 00:19:18.780 --> 00:19:22.130 But he’s got a fierce critique of the Democratic Party. 00:19:22.130 --> 00:19:25.190 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. And I think he’s been biting his tongue a little bit. 00:19:25.190 --> 00:19:27.740 I might speculate that he was inspired 00:19:27.740 --> 00:19:29.140 by what just happened in the U.K. 00:19:29.140 --> 00:19:30.620 with Jeremy Corbyn—we know 00:19:30.620 --> 00:19:32.390 he just came back from a trip to the U.K.— 00:19:33.770 --> 00:19:37.230 because there is an interesting parallel, 00:19:37.230 --> 00:19:40.580 in the sense that Jeremy Corbyn was elected 00:19:40.580 --> 00:19:43.680 by a grassroots, insurgent, 00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:45.530 youth-led movement. 00:19:45.530 --> 00:19:46.760 He was elected as leader 00:19:46.760 --> 00:19:49.730 originally—a youth-led movement 00:19:49.730 --> 00:19:51.780 called Momentum in the U.K., many, 00:19:51.780 --> 00:19:54.000 many young people who joined the Labour Party 00:19:54.000 --> 00:19:55.870 in order to support Jeremy Corbyn. 00:19:56.820 --> 00:20:01.280 And there was this—they were treated as, you know, invade—like, 00:20:01.280 --> 00:20:03.470 instead of being excited 00:20:03.470 --> 00:20:07.150 about this wave of interest in the political party, 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:09.050 the Labour Party establishment, 00:20:09.050 --> 00:20:12.000 the so-called New Labour party establishment, 00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:15.120 because Labour was rebranded by Tony Blair 00:20:15.120 --> 00:20:18.010 in the late 1990s to be the New Labour party, 00:20:18.010 --> 00:20:20.120 which is kind of like a labor-scented party 00:20:20.120 --> 00:20:23.150 as opposed to a party of actually working people, 00:20:23.150 --> 00:20:25.360 really using the tools of marketing 00:20:25.360 --> 00:20:28.000 as opposed to having a party 00:20:28.000 --> 00:20:31.690 that knows what it stands for and who it stands for. 00:20:31.690 --> 00:20:33.940 And so, Jeremy Corbyn was elected, 00:20:33.940 --> 00:20:36.390 and there was just this campaign of sabotage. 00:20:36.390 --> 00:20:39.020 It was just the end of the world. He’s unelectable. He was smeared. 00:20:39.020 --> 00:20:41.340 Then there was a coup to try to unseat him. 00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:44.870 He was sabotaged relentlessly by his MPs, 00:20:44.870 --> 00:20:46.580 while he was leader, 00:20:46.580 --> 00:20:49.780 who were constantly leaking damning information, 00:20:49.780 --> 00:20:52.130 trying to make him look bad in the press, 00:20:52.130 --> 00:20:54.550 sabotaging him at every front, right? 00:20:55.130 --> 00:20:58.810 But the insurgency was ultimately successful, 00:20:58.810 --> 00:21:02.160 in that this campaign was a tremendous upset. 00:21:02.160 --> 00:21:03.460 It was an—sorry, 00:21:03.460 --> 00:21:06.400 this election was a tremendous upset in the U.K. 00:21:06.400 --> 00:21:08.090 [Theresa] 00:21:08.090 --> 00:21:09.880 May did not need to call the election. 00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:11.080 She said she wouldn’t call the election. 00:21:11.080 --> 00:21:12.470 The only reason she called the election, 00:21:12.470 --> 00:21:14.290 because she was so convinced 00:21:14.290 --> 00:21:16.610 that she was going to get an overwhelming majority, 00:21:16.610 --> 00:21:19.360 which was supposed to give her this mandate 00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:22.280 to get the best deal possible under Brexit 00:21:22.280 --> 00:21:23.970 as they negotiated with the EU. 00:21:23.970 --> 00:21:26.380 And there’s this huge upset, and, in fact, 00:21:26.380 --> 00:21:28.450 she loses all these seats, she loses her majority. 00:21:28.450 --> 00:21:30.850 Jeremy Corbyn wins about 30 seats. 00:21:30.850 --> 00:21:32.210 AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to Jeremy Corbyn— NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. 00:21:32.210 --> 00:21:34.000 AMY GOODMAN: —in his own words. 00:21:34.000 --> 00:21:37.950 JEREMY CORBYN: What’s happened is people have said they’ve had quite enough 00:21:37.950 --> 00:21:39.230 of austerity politics, 00:21:39.230 --> 00:21:42.560 they’ve had quite enough of cuts in public expenditure, 00:21:42.560 --> 00:21:44.470 underfunding our health service, 00:21:44.470 --> 00:21:47.720 underfunding our schools and our education service 00:21:47.720 --> 00:21:49.340 and not giving our young people 00:21:49.340 --> 00:21:52.040 the chance they deserve in our society. 00:21:52.740 --> 00:21:54.310 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: That was Jeremy Corbyn speaking. 00:21:54.310 --> 00:21:56.110 I wanted to ask you—in 00:21:56.110 --> 00:21:58.710 No Is Not Enough, 00:21:58.710 --> 00:22:01.200 you also raise some criticisms 00:22:01.200 --> 00:22:02.600 of why Bernie Sanders 00:22:02.600 --> 00:22:05.110 was not more successful during the primary campaign. 00:22:05.110 --> 00:22:07.970 And you raise the issue that some people claim 00:22:07.970 --> 00:22:10.380 that Hillary Clinton rode identity politics, 00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:13.760 as well as the machinations of the Democratic Party, 00:22:13.760 --> 00:22:16.750 to be able to persevere against him, 00:22:16.750 --> 00:22:19.870 in that was an issue of identity politics versus class politics. 00:22:19.870 --> 00:22:23.370 But you raise some criticism on that. 00:22:23.370 --> 00:22:24.970 I’m wondering if you could expand on that. 00:22:24.970 --> 00:22:28.630 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah, I mean, and I endorsed Bernie and support him. 00:22:28.630 --> 00:22:30.980 I think he’s a tremendously important voice, 00:22:30.980 --> 00:22:32.600 and I’m so grateful to him. 00:22:32.600 --> 00:22:35.470 But I don’t think we, you know, 00:22:35.470 --> 00:22:38.990 do ourselves a service on the progressive side 00:22:38.990 --> 00:22:40.410 of the political spectrum—you know, 00:22:40.410 --> 00:22:41.890 those of us who do believe it 00:22:41.890 --> 00:22:43.920 is a moment for deep change 00:22:43.920 --> 00:22:45.810 as opposed to these little sort of tinkering 00:22:45.810 --> 00:22:47.010 changes—to 00:22:47.010 --> 00:22:49.100 not engage in self-criticism in this moment. 00:22:49.100 --> 00:22:51.090 I mean, I am sort of disheartened by the extent 00:22:51.090 --> 00:22:53.830 to which some of this debate is still frozen 00:22:53.830 --> 00:22:56.180 as if we are still in the primary, 00:22:56.180 --> 00:22:57.970 and you still have people in their hard, 00:22:57.970 --> 00:22:59.790 you know, "Bernie would have won" camps, 00:23:00.380 --> 00:23:03.020 and you still have Hillary supporters 00:23:03.020 --> 00:23:06.090 refighting and blaming Bernie supporters for Hillary’s defeat. 00:23:06.090 --> 00:23:08.970 And it’s just like we have to get out of that debate. 00:23:08.970 --> 00:23:13.060 And I think on—among the people who did support Bernie, 00:23:13.730 --> 00:23:16.440 like the many thousands of people who were at the People’s Summit, 00:23:16.440 --> 00:23:20.170 I think it’s very important to understand 00:23:20.170 --> 00:23:23.920 why Bernie wasn’t able to go all the way, right? 00:23:23.920 --> 00:23:25.300 I mean, he got 13 million votes. 00:23:25.300 --> 00:23:26.820 He took 22 states. 00:23:26.820 --> 00:23:29.840 He got closer than any candidate 00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:35.070 who described himself as a democratic socialist, 00:23:35.070 --> 00:23:37.010 his campaign as a political revolution. 00:23:37.010 --> 00:23:38.810 I mean, it was incredible. 00:23:38.810 --> 00:23:42.360 But I don’t think Bernie lost the primary 00:23:42.360 --> 00:23:44.720 because the Democratic base 00:23:44.720 --> 00:23:46.390 is too conservative for Bernie. 00:23:46.390 --> 00:23:47.690 I think he lost the primary 00:23:47.690 --> 00:23:50.630 because he was not able to connect with, 00:23:50.630 --> 00:23:54.030 to speak to enough black and Latino voters, 00:23:54.030 --> 00:23:56.150 who tend to be more progressive 00:23:56.150 --> 00:23:57.880 than the rest of the Democratic base, 00:23:58.650 --> 00:24:02.910 and also to older women, who felt that their issues 00:24:02.910 --> 00:24:05.030 were too much of an add-on 00:24:05.030 --> 00:24:06.460 or sort of tacked on. 00:24:06.460 --> 00:24:09.440 So, you know, I think, frankly, the best quote in my book 00:24:09.440 --> 00:24:11.020 is from Michelle Alexander, 00:24:11.020 --> 00:24:12.510 the author of The New Jim Crow, 00:24:12.510 --> 00:24:15.170 just a wonderful author and theorist and activist. 00:24:15.170 --> 00:24:17.430 And, you know, she said to me 00:24:17.430 --> 00:24:20.970 that if the progressives cannot 00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:23.400 do a better job of connecting with black voters, 00:24:23.400 --> 00:24:27.580 of understanding the role of race in American history 00:24:27.580 --> 00:24:29.420 and telling that story differently, she said, 00:24:29.420 --> 00:24:31.330 "They better get Elon Musk on speed dial, 00:24:31.330 --> 00:24:33.290 because they’re going to need another planet." 00:24:33.290 --> 00:24:36.030 And so, I think we—and one of the things 00:24:36.030 --> 00:24:38.300 that I found really inspiring about the People’s Summit 00:24:38.300 --> 00:24:40.480 was I think that critique was really embedded 00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:43.520 in the way the weekend was organized, 00:24:43.520 --> 00:24:46.340 I mean, beginning with the voices 00:24:46.340 --> 00:24:49.020 of organizers of color, 00:24:49.020 --> 00:24:50.630 the Million Hoodies Movement. 00:24:50.630 --> 00:24:54.350 We heard from the chairs of the Women’s March, 00:24:55.060 --> 00:24:57.280 including Linda Sarsour, on the opening night, 00:24:57.280 --> 00:24:59.690 speaking explicitly about the need 00:24:59.690 --> 00:25:02.160 for a deeply intersectional politic, 00:25:02.160 --> 00:25:06.690 to use Kimberlé Crenshaw’s very important framing, 00:25:06.690 --> 00:25:08.890 and saying, "No, this is not—this 00:25:08.890 --> 00:25:12.230 is not a competition between class and economics 00:25:12.230 --> 00:25:14.520 and so-called identity politics. 00:25:14.520 --> 00:25:16.280 It is deeply interconnected, 00:25:16.280 --> 00:25:20.120 and we can’t understand the story of the United States 00:25:20.120 --> 00:25:22.540 and what this economy is without understanding 00:25:22.540 --> 00:25:25.570 how race has been used systematically as a wedge 00:25:25.570 --> 00:25:28.880 to divide and enforce this brutal economic system." 00:25:28.880 --> 00:25:32.520 So I think that critique is making it in there, you know, 00:25:32.520 --> 00:25:34.740 and I didn’t—don’t make the critique in the book, 00:25:35.730 --> 00:25:37.840 you know, in the spirit of finger-pointing. 00:25:37.840 --> 00:25:41.080 But just because what we are seeing 00:25:41.080 --> 00:25:44.330 with Bernie’s candidacy, with Corbyn’s candidacy, 00:25:44.330 --> 00:25:47.480 with Mélenchon’s candidacy in France, 00:25:47.480 --> 00:25:49.490 who came two points shy— 00:25:49.490 --> 00:25:50.720 AMY GOODMAN: Explain who Mélenchon was. 00:25:50.720 --> 00:25:51.270 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. Well, Jean-Luc— 00:25:51.270 --> 00:25:53.660 AMY GOODMAN: Not to be confused with the new prime minister. 00:25:53.660 --> 00:25:57.730 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah, right. So, in the recent French elections recently, 00:25:58.350 --> 00:26:02.200 there was a—there was a surprise, 00:26:02.200 --> 00:26:03.570 where Jean-Luc Mélenchon, 00:26:03.570 --> 00:26:05.870 who is a very left-wing candidate, 00:26:05.870 --> 00:26:08.020 significantly to the left of Bernie Sanders—I think 00:26:08.020 --> 00:26:10.980 he was calling for a rate of a 100 percent taxation 00:26:10.980 --> 00:26:12.390 for the rich, right?—running 00:26:12.390 --> 00:26:16.010 on a campaign of really deep redistribution 00:26:16.640 --> 00:26:19.730 of wealth in order to pay for the social safety 00:26:19.730 --> 00:26:24.710 net—it was a much less xenophobic message. 00:26:24.710 --> 00:26:27.090 It was much more friendly to refugees 00:26:27.090 --> 00:26:29.830 than we’ve been hearing from French politicians, 00:26:29.830 --> 00:26:32.830 you know, even on the so-called left, 00:26:32.830 --> 00:26:35.700 an antiwar message, a pro-peace message, 00:26:35.700 --> 00:26:38.270 making the connections, as Jeremy Corbyn did, 00:26:38.270 --> 00:26:42.750 between the failed war-on-terror-model 00:26:42.750 --> 00:26:44.510 foreign interventions 00:26:44.510 --> 00:26:48.520 and terrorist attacks in France—in Jeremy Corbyn’s case, 00:26:48.520 --> 00:26:51.970 in the U.K.—really trying to get at these root causes. 00:26:51.970 --> 00:26:54.910 Jean-Luc Mélenchon picked up, I think, 10 points. 00:26:54.910 --> 00:26:56.790 I mean, he surged at the end. 00:26:56.790 --> 00:27:00.190 And he came, at the end of the campaign—and 00:27:00.190 --> 00:27:01.710 this is on the first ballot, 00:27:01.710 --> 00:27:03.400 because the way the French elections work 00:27:03.400 --> 00:27:06.670 is they have multiple candidates on the first ballot, 00:27:06.670 --> 00:27:08.080 and then they narrow it down 00:27:08.080 --> 00:27:10.390 to two candidates for the final vote. 00:27:10.390 --> 00:27:11.600 AMY GOODMAN: For president. 00:27:11.600 --> 00:27:12.980 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. And all of a sudden, 00:27:12.980 --> 00:27:16.320 Mélenchon is getting 70,000 people at rallies, right? 00:27:16.320 --> 00:27:19.100 I mean, his was the campaign that had the energy. 00:27:19.100 --> 00:27:23.280 And he came within two points of Marine Le Pen, 00:27:23.280 --> 00:27:25.620 so he almost made it onto the second ballot, 00:27:25.620 --> 00:27:27.400 which would have meant that it was a race 00:27:27.400 --> 00:27:30.740 between a Hillary-like neoliberal figure, 00:27:30.740 --> 00:27:33.840 which is who Macron is—Macron is a former banker; 00:27:33.840 --> 00:27:35.840 he imposed economic austerity 00:27:35.840 --> 00:27:37.540 under the government of François Hollande, 00:27:37.540 --> 00:27:40.530 despite Hollande having won the election 00:27:40.530 --> 00:27:43.670 originally promising to resist 00:27:43.670 --> 00:27:46.700 the imposition of austerity in France—so 00:27:46.700 --> 00:27:48.750 it would have been him versus Mélenchon, 00:27:48.750 --> 00:27:50.300 which would have been a very interesting race. 00:27:50.300 --> 00:27:52.990 As it turned out, it was Marine Le Pen versus Macron. 00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:58.250 And thankfully, you know, France rejected fascism. 00:27:58.250 --> 00:28:04.310 But my concern is that after, you know, four years of the kind 00:28:04.310 --> 00:28:07.090 of privatizations, deregulation, 00:28:07.800 --> 00:28:10.150 austerity politics that I think Macron 00:28:10.150 --> 00:28:12.150 is almost certain to impose on France, 00:28:12.150 --> 00:28:14.010 I’m worried about that setting the stage 00:28:14.010 --> 00:28:17.380 for a surge for the Front National, 00:28:17.380 --> 00:28:18.780 which is—you know, people have 00:28:18.780 --> 00:28:21.730 made these direct analogies 00:28:21.730 --> 00:28:23.330 between Trump and Marine Le Pen, 00:28:23.330 --> 00:28:25.320 and sort of holding up Macron 00:28:25.320 --> 00:28:26.920 as if, well, this proves 00:28:26.920 --> 00:28:28.260 that neoliberalism 00:28:28.260 --> 00:28:31.350 can beat a candidate like Trump. 00:28:31.350 --> 00:28:33.290 But Marine Le Pen is not Trump. 00:28:33.870 --> 00:28:37.290 The more accurate equivalent would be David Duke. 00:28:37.290 --> 00:28:42.110 I mean, this is a party with ties to Nazism historically, 00:28:43.850 --> 00:28:47.280 you know, that align themselves with the Vichy regime. 00:28:47.280 --> 00:28:49.520 The fact that they got around 00:28:49.520 --> 00:28:50.890 30 percent of the vote in France 00:28:50.890 --> 00:28:52.240 is absolutely shocking. 00:28:52.240 --> 00:28:54.700 It’s nothing to feel, you know, complacent about. 00:28:55.530 --> 00:28:58.090 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, earlier this month, President Trump announced 00:28:58.090 --> 00:29:01.360 he will withdraw from the United—the United States 00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:03.260 from the landmark Paris climate accord 00:29:03.260 --> 00:29:07.150 that was signed by nearly 200 nations in 2015. 00:29:08.220 --> 00:29:10.870 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: As of today, the United States 00:29:10.870 --> 00:29:13.630 will cease all implementation 00:29:14.140 --> 00:29:16.330 of the nonbinding Paris accord 00:29:17.610 --> 00:29:19.460 and the draconian financial 00:29:19.460 --> 00:29:20.860 and economic burdens 00:29:21.830 --> 00:29:24.910 the agreement imposes on our country. 00:29:25.550 --> 00:29:28.150 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: In his speech, Trump said he wants to negotiate 00:29:28.150 --> 00:29:29.620 a better climate deal. 00:29:30.990 --> 00:29:32.230 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: So we’re getting out, 00:29:33.990 --> 00:29:35.710 but we will start to negotiate, 00:29:36.820 --> 00:29:39.280 and we will see if we can make a deal that’s fair. 00:29:39.280 --> 00:29:40.910 And if we can, that’s great. 00:29:41.900 --> 00:29:43.110 And if we can’t, that’s fine. 00:29:44.120 --> 00:29:47.220 ... I’m willing to immediately work with Democratic leaders 00:29:48.830 --> 00:29:51.740 to either negotiate our way back into Paris, 00:29:52.790 --> 00:29:57.130 under the terms that are fair to the United States 00:29:57.130 --> 00:29:58.820 and its workers, 00:29:58.820 --> 00:30:01.220 or to negotiate a new deal 00:30:02.310 --> 00:30:04.900 that protects our country and its taxpayers. 00:30:05.990 --> 00:30:07.950 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Naomi Klein, a better deal? 00:30:07.950 --> 00:30:09.350 NAOMI KLEIN: I just can’t wait, Juan. 00:30:09.350 --> 00:30:12.300 I mean, it’s been—took 25 years to get this deal, 00:30:12.300 --> 00:30:14.640 but I’m just looking for to another 25 years— 00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:15.960 right?—to get an even better deal, 00:30:15.960 --> 00:30:17.270 because when it comes to climate change, 00:30:17.270 --> 00:30:18.860 we’ve got nothing but time, you know? 00:30:18.860 --> 00:30:22.650 Sorry. That was unfair sarcasm for Democracy Now! 00:30:22.650 --> 00:30:26.090 But no, I—I mean, everything about what he said 00:30:26.090 --> 00:30:27.710 is just so extraordinary, 00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:31.210 and in particular this idea 00:30:31.210 --> 00:30:33.810 that the deal is unfair to the United States, 00:30:33.810 --> 00:30:37.060 that it’s this draconian, top-down. 00:30:37.060 --> 00:30:40.840 I mean, the deal is so weak, right? 00:30:40.840 --> 00:30:42.960 And the reason it is weak is 00:30:42.960 --> 00:30:44.860 because it doesn’t impose anything on anyone. 00:30:44.860 --> 00:30:48.650 And the people who made sure of that were the U.S. negotiators, 00:30:48.650 --> 00:30:52.210 who fought tooth and nail—and this is not under Trump, 00:30:52.210 --> 00:30:55.570 this is under Obama—but, you know, in large part 00:30:55.570 --> 00:30:58.710 because they had to bring the deal back to the U.S., 00:30:58.710 --> 00:31:00.540 and if it was a binding treaty, 00:31:00.540 --> 00:31:02.240 they would have had to get it ratified 00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:04.070 by a Republican-controlled House, 00:31:04.070 --> 00:31:05.430 and they knew that they couldn’t, right? 00:31:05.430 --> 00:31:08.010 So the U.S. fought the world, 00:31:08.010 --> 00:31:10.670 which wanted a legally binding treaty, 00:31:10.670 --> 00:31:12.950 and said, "Well, then you won’t have us involved." 00:31:12.950 --> 00:31:19.250 So, what the deal actually is is really just a kind of patchwork of the best 00:31:19.250 --> 00:31:21.110 that every country could bring to the table. 00:31:21.110 --> 00:31:24.060 The U.S. brought Obama’s Clean Power Plan, 00:31:24.060 --> 00:31:26.630 a plan to accelerate the decommissioning 00:31:26.630 --> 00:31:28.250 of coal-fired power plants, 00:31:28.990 --> 00:31:32.330 new restrictions on new coal-fired power plants 00:31:32.330 --> 00:31:34.920 that would require that they sequester more carbon. 00:31:35.840 --> 00:31:38.820 It was a fraction of what the U.S. needed to do 00:31:38.820 --> 00:31:41.680 to do its share of the goal of the Paris accord, 00:31:41.680 --> 00:31:46.530 which is to keep warming below 1.5 to 2 degrees Celsius. 00:31:46.530 --> 00:31:49.810 You know, then that deal was announced, 00:31:49.810 --> 00:31:52.100 I joked that the governments of the world came together 00:31:52.100 --> 00:31:53.790 and said, "We know it what we need to do, 00:31:53.790 --> 00:31:55.680 and we’re willing to do roughly half that." 00:31:55.680 --> 00:31:57.870 Right? Because if you add it up, 00:31:57.870 --> 00:31:59.960 what all the governments brought to the table, 00:31:59.960 --> 00:32:02.800 it didn’t lead to a trajectory that would keep warming below 00:32:02.800 --> 00:32:04.080 what they said they wanted to do, 00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:06.060 but it would lead to warming of double that. 00:32:06.060 --> 00:32:08.280 But under Trump, they had already announced 00:32:08.280 --> 00:32:09.440 that weren’t even going to do that. 00:32:09.440 --> 00:32:11.570 So this whole debate about Paris was 00:32:11.570 --> 00:32:14.610 whether or not the U.S. was going to stay in the accord 00:32:14.610 --> 00:32:17.360 but treat it as if it wasn’t worth the paper 00:32:17.360 --> 00:32:18.730 it was printed on, 00:32:18.730 --> 00:32:20.090 which would have had, you know, 00:32:20.090 --> 00:32:23.920 a very insidious moral hazard for other governments, 00:32:23.920 --> 00:32:26.250 because then if you have a volunteer, 00:32:26.250 --> 00:32:27.780 kind of good-faith agreement 00:32:27.780 --> 00:32:29.860 and the largest economy in the world 00:32:29.860 --> 00:32:31.150 is treating it like a joke, 00:32:31.150 --> 00:32:32.630 which is what would have happened if Trump 00:32:32.630 --> 00:32:35.030 had stayed—they made that clear as soon as they said 00:32:35.030 --> 00:32:37.620 that they were rolling back the Clean Power Plan—then 00:32:37.620 --> 00:32:39.340 that would have encouraged other governments 00:32:39.340 --> 00:32:41.720 that were already starting to slip, 00:32:41.720 --> 00:32:43.140 like the government of Canada, 00:32:43.140 --> 00:32:44.810 under Trudeau—you know, went to Paris, 00:32:44.810 --> 00:32:46.100 made all kinds of wonderful speeches 00:32:46.100 --> 00:32:50.180 and then went home and approved two new tar sands pipelines 00:32:50.770 --> 00:32:54.880 and cheered when President Trump approved the Keystone XL pipeline. 00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.120 So that’s three new tar sands pipelines. You know— 00:32:56.120 --> 00:32:58.540 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, that’s—I wanted to ask you about that, just the impact 00:32:58.540 --> 00:33:00.820 on the climate change movement within the last three months, 00:33:00.820 --> 00:33:02.670 all of these reversals of Trump— NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah. 00:33:02.670 --> 00:33:04.320 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: —Keystone, Dakota Access. 00:33:04.990 --> 00:33:05.290 NAOMI KLEIN: Right. 00:33:05.290 --> 00:33:08.020 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: What’s your sense now of how the movement 00:33:08.020 --> 00:33:09.150 will be able to function? NAOMI KLEIN: Right. 00:33:09.150 --> 00:33:11.510 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And also, the importance of the local resistance, 00:33:11.510 --> 00:33:14.170 of cities and states, to the federal government? 00:33:14.170 --> 00:33:18.970 NAOMI KLEIN: Well, to be honest, I mean, I think that this—just the shock 00:33:18.970 --> 00:33:21.550 of just seeing Trump in the Rose Garden 00:33:21.550 --> 00:33:23.860 just lifting that middle finger to the world, 00:33:25.620 --> 00:33:29.480 I think that is proving to be more of a catalyst 00:33:29.480 --> 00:33:31.500 for other countries 00:33:31.500 --> 00:33:34.420 and for states here in the U.S. 00:33:34.420 --> 00:33:37.100 and cities here in the U.S. to understand 00:33:37.100 --> 00:33:38.810 that this is the moment to step up, 00:33:38.810 --> 00:33:40.990 to increase ambitions, 00:33:40.990 --> 00:33:44.210 whereas I think if it had been more ambiguous 00:33:44.210 --> 00:33:46.080 and they had stayed in 00:33:46.080 --> 00:33:47.780 and sort of pretended 00:33:47.780 --> 00:33:49.290 like there was something happening—and, 00:33:49.290 --> 00:33:51.810 well, is Ivanka having a good influence on him? 00:33:51.810 --> 00:33:53.640 Are things about to get better?—I mean, 00:33:53.640 --> 00:33:56.410 I don’t think we would have seen this kind of very bold response 00:33:56.410 --> 00:33:59.020 of having hundreds of mayors step forward and say, 00:33:59.020 --> 00:34:00.630 "No, we’re committed to Paris," 00:34:00.630 --> 00:34:02.520 the mayor of Pittsburgh coming forward 00:34:02.520 --> 00:34:04.950 and saying—you know, after Trump said, 00:34:04.950 --> 00:34:07.570 "I was elected by the people of Pittsburgh, not the people of Paris," 00:34:07.570 --> 00:34:09.330 the mayor of Pittsburgh stepping up and going, 00:34:09.330 --> 00:34:11.820 "Actually, you were not elected in Pittsburgh. 00:34:12.980 --> 00:34:14.220 Pittsburgh voted for Hillary. 00:34:14.220 --> 00:34:16.430 And I’m going to get the city of Pittsburgh 00:34:16.430 --> 00:34:19.260 to 100 percent renewable energy by the year 2035," 00:34:19.260 --> 00:34:22.160 which is exactly the level of ambition 00:34:22.160 --> 00:34:24.310 we need across the board 00:34:24.310 --> 00:34:26.830 if we’re going to hit that ambitious temperature target 00:34:26.830 --> 00:34:28.110 in the Paris accord, 00:34:28.110 --> 00:34:30.280 if we’re going to keep temperatures below 1.5. 00:34:30.280 --> 00:34:33.770 So, you know, that—I think this is— 00:34:33.770 --> 00:34:34.350 AMY GOODMAN: And then you have the— 00:34:34.350 --> 00:34:36.210 NAOMI KLEIN: Obviously, we would like this not to be happening. 00:34:36.210 --> 00:34:38.250 We would like Donald Trump not to be president. 00:34:38.250 --> 00:34:40.960 We would like not to have such an array of bad options on the table. 00:34:40.960 --> 00:34:42.670 But given what we have, 00:34:42.670 --> 00:34:46.620 I would say that people are stepping up. 00:34:46.620 --> 00:34:48.710 And that is what the climate movement needs to be doing, 00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:50.480 is sending this very clear message 00:34:50.480 --> 00:34:53.390 that because of the recklessness, 00:34:53.390 --> 00:34:56.580 because the U.S. at the federal level has gone rogue, 00:34:56.580 --> 00:34:59.020 at every level that Trump does not control, 00:34:59.020 --> 00:35:02.370 whether it is universities and their fossil fuel holdings, 00:35:02.370 --> 00:35:04.080 you know, whether it is states 00:35:04.080 --> 00:35:05.560 and their ability 00:35:05.560 --> 00:35:08.930 to get to 100 percent renewable very, very quickly—because 00:35:08.930 --> 00:35:10.830 we don’t get our energy at the federal level; 00:35:10.830 --> 00:35:13.100 we get it at the state level, we get it at the provincial level, 00:35:13.100 --> 00:35:14.510 we get it at the city 00:35:14.510 --> 00:35:16.230 level—at all those places 00:35:16.230 --> 00:35:18.820 where Trump doesn’t control things, 00:35:18.820 --> 00:35:20.750 there has to be an increase of ambition. 00:35:20.750 --> 00:35:24.840 And thankfully, the climate justice movement is, 00:35:24.840 --> 00:35:27.330 you know, I think, really focused on that and understands 00:35:27.330 --> 00:35:28.530 that that’s the mission now. 00:35:28.530 --> 00:35:31.800 And I think we’re seeing more ambition, 00:35:31.800 --> 00:35:34.790 including universities being likelier to divest their holdings, 00:35:34.790 --> 00:35:38.060 putting financial pressure on the industry. 00:35:38.060 --> 00:35:40.520 AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask you about healthcare. You come from Canada. 00:35:41.710 --> 00:35:44.380 This weekend, I mean, it was a major topic 00:35:44.380 --> 00:35:45.880 of discussion at the People’s Summit, 00:35:45.880 --> 00:35:48.100 because you had National Nurses United, 00:35:48.100 --> 00:35:51.450 a thousand nurses at this 4,000-person event. 00:35:51.450 --> 00:35:54.860 And yet, this moment, 00:35:54.860 --> 00:35:57.790 where you talk about how critical it 00:35:57.790 --> 00:36:04.790 actually is to seize upon what’s happening, 00:36:04.790 --> 00:36:08.050 the—we just have this—on Monday, 00:36:08.050 --> 00:36:10.320 Senator Sanders tweeted, "BREAKING: 00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:13.150 Senate Republicans just released a schedule of hearings, 00:36:13.150 --> 00:36:16.300 committee markups public testimony for their health care bill." 00:36:16.300 --> 00:36:20.150 His tweet includes the image of a blank white piece of paper. 00:36:22.260 --> 00:36:24.130 Wouldn’t this be the moment 00:36:24.130 --> 00:36:26.710 where people across the country—in fact, 00:36:26.710 --> 00:36:28.350 some polls suggest the majority 00:36:28.350 --> 00:36:29.720 of people in the United States— NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah, yeah. 00:36:29.720 --> 00:36:33.060 AMY GOODMAN: —would put forward something different from Obamacare, 00:36:33.060 --> 00:36:35.900 certainly different from what the Republicans are putting forward? 00:36:35.900 --> 00:36:36.360 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah, yeah, of course. 00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:37.960 AMY GOODMAN: What would that look like? 00:36:37.960 --> 00:36:40.730 NAOMI KLEIN: Right. And this is starting to happen, because, you know, 00:36:40.730 --> 00:36:43.540 I think this is also part of the Sanders effect, 00:36:43.540 --> 00:36:47.730 of seeing how popular it was to stand before the country 00:36:47.730 --> 00:36:51.170 and talk about single payer on the Canadian model, right? 00:36:51.170 --> 00:36:53.140 AMY GOODMAN: And yet he hasn’t introduced a new bill 00:36:53.140 --> 00:36:54.690 at this point for single payer. 00:36:54.690 --> 00:36:59.780 NAOMI KLEIN: But in California, the Senate just got one step closer. 00:36:59.780 --> 00:37:01.330 The California Senate just got one step 00:37:01.330 --> 00:37:05.270 closer to single payer at the state level, right? 00:37:05.270 --> 00:37:07.280 And this is—you know, there is a vacuum 00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:12.390 that’s being created by the Trump administration 00:37:12.390 --> 00:37:13.880 going rogue on all of these fronts. 00:37:13.880 --> 00:37:16.070 And it is creating a space 00:37:16.070 --> 00:37:18.820 for boldness at the subnational, 00:37:18.820 --> 00:37:20.730 at the municipal level. 00:37:20.730 --> 00:37:22.650 You know, climate is an example. 00:37:22.650 --> 00:37:24.170 Healthcare is an example. 00:37:24.170 --> 00:37:27.420 Imagine if we were to see this proliferate across the country, 00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:30.400 and people realized and experienced in their lives 00:37:30.400 --> 00:37:33.090 that it is possible to have 00:37:33.090 --> 00:37:35.630 a far less bureaucratic system, 00:37:35.630 --> 00:37:37.140 a much simpler system, 00:37:37.140 --> 00:37:39.090 with quality healthcare that is cheaper. 00:37:39.720 --> 00:37:42.470 You know, this is what we have in Canada. 00:37:42.470 --> 00:37:46.120 And, you know, unfortunately, it has been under ceaseless attack 00:37:46.120 --> 00:37:48.840 by various politicians that have underfunded it, 00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:50.370 but it’s still—you know, 00:37:50.370 --> 00:37:53.270 it’s still a good system, despite what people hear a lot. 00:37:53.270 --> 00:37:55.900 You know, you hear a lot of attacks 00:37:55.900 --> 00:37:57.770 on the Canadian system, endless waits. 00:37:57.770 --> 00:38:00.380 And I don’t want to idealize it, but then, you know, 00:38:00.380 --> 00:38:02.570 look at what just happened with Jeremy Corbyn in the U.K., 00:38:02.570 --> 00:38:03.970 to bring him back into the conversation. 00:38:03.970 --> 00:38:06.460 I mean, some of his most powerful messages 00:38:06.460 --> 00:38:08.980 were about the NHS 00:38:08.980 --> 00:38:11.220 and what has happened— 00:38:11.220 --> 00:38:12.120 AMY GOODMAN: The National Health Service. 00:38:12.120 --> 00:38:13.660 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah, the public healthcare system, 00:38:13.660 --> 00:38:17.330 which has been systematically starved in order 00:38:17.330 --> 00:38:19.220 to get it ready for privatization. 00:38:19.220 --> 00:38:20.530 And he just named that. 00:38:20.530 --> 00:38:23.370 And he made these very powerful campaign ads, 00:38:23.370 --> 00:38:26.490 including one, a beautiful one directed by Ken Loach, 00:38:27.250 --> 00:38:30.680 that featured nurses and doctors, 00:38:30.680 --> 00:38:33.070 including a pediatrician who broke down crying 00:38:33.070 --> 00:38:36.200 about having to send a child to be hospitalized 00:38:36.200 --> 00:38:38.960 500 kilometers away from where his family lived 00:38:38.960 --> 00:38:41.100 and where they couldn’t visit him. 00:38:41.100 --> 00:38:44.180 And people stepped forward 00:38:44.180 --> 00:38:46.870 and were galvanized by a desire to reclaim the system, 00:38:46.870 --> 00:38:49.730 because when you have universal public healthcare, 00:38:49.730 --> 00:38:51.910 no politician can run against it. 00:38:51.910 --> 00:38:54.710 That’s why they have to chip away at it bit by bit. 00:38:54.710 --> 00:38:57.290 And always, every politician, no matter what party, 00:38:57.290 --> 00:39:00.450 will always claim they are defending the public healthcare system, 00:39:00.450 --> 00:39:02.210 whether in the U.K. or in Canada, 00:39:02.210 --> 00:39:03.710 because they will not get elected. 00:39:03.710 --> 00:39:05.130 So what they do is they try to kill it 00:39:05.130 --> 00:39:06.390 by these little—you know, 00:39:06.390 --> 00:39:08.270 a thousand cuts, and then they say, "Well, it’s impossible. 00:39:08.270 --> 00:39:10.210 The waiting lists are too long." 00:39:10.910 --> 00:39:14.390 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to ask you—No Is Not Enough, the title of the book 00:39:14.390 --> 00:39:16.860 —you’ve talked about that the movement needed 00:39:16.860 --> 00:39:19.320 to have a vision of the world it wants. 00:39:19.320 --> 00:39:22.720 Talk about the Leap Manifesto and what it represents. 00:39:22.720 --> 00:39:25.780 NAOMI KLEIN: Right. So, you know, what I argue in the book 00:39:25.780 --> 00:39:28.560 is that the greatest victory 00:39:28.560 --> 00:39:30.270 of the neoliberal project 00:39:30.270 --> 00:39:33.000 really comes back to what Margaret 00:39:33.000 --> 00:39:36.300 Thatcher said many decades ago, 00:39:36.300 --> 00:39:37.970 which is that there is no alternative, 00:39:37.970 --> 00:39:41.150 that however bad these policies are for your life, 00:39:41.150 --> 00:39:43.060 the alternative would be even worse. 00:39:43.060 --> 00:39:45.020 It would be sort of economic apocalypse. 00:39:45.780 --> 00:39:49.240 And I think that when we cast our minds 00:39:49.240 --> 00:39:52.630 back to the response to the 2008 crisis 00:39:52.630 --> 00:39:54.250 and the first wave of resistance, 00:39:54.250 --> 00:39:55.900 like Occupy Wall Street 00:39:56.510 --> 00:39:58.900 and the movements of the squares across Europe, 00:40:00.160 --> 00:40:03.920 that the spell of neoliberalism was breaking, 00:40:03.920 --> 00:40:05.390 and people had the courage to say, 00:40:05.390 --> 00:40:07.260 "No, we don’t want this model," 00:40:07.260 --> 00:40:09.910 but somehow lacked the courage to step forward and say, 00:40:09.910 --> 00:40:11.630 "This is what we want instead. 00:40:11.630 --> 00:40:13.900 This is the economy that we believe is workable. 00:40:13.900 --> 00:40:15.600 We have the resources in this time 00:40:15.600 --> 00:40:18.390 of unprecedented private wealth 00:40:18.390 --> 00:40:22.490 to provide the basics for everybody—quality healthcare, 00:40:22.490 --> 00:40:25.320 quality education, housing for all. 00:40:25.870 --> 00:40:27.760 You know, we can—we understand 00:40:27.760 --> 00:40:29.360 that war is making us less safe. 00:40:29.360 --> 00:40:32.390 We want to be a society that welcomes refugees 00:40:32.390 --> 00:40:35.350 and those in need"—I mean, a transformative vision—"And 00:40:35.350 --> 00:40:36.630 we believe we can do this in a way 00:40:36.630 --> 00:40:38.880 that gets us to 100 percent renewable energy 00:40:38.880 --> 00:40:41.410 as quickly as technology allows, and, in the process, 00:40:41.410 --> 00:40:44.240 we can create huge numbers of unionized jobs." 00:40:44.240 --> 00:40:46.160 People—we weren’t there yet. 00:40:46.160 --> 00:40:47.360 We didn’t have the confidence yet. 00:40:47.360 --> 00:40:49.970 And I think this is just the hangover of neoliberalism. 00:40:49.970 --> 00:40:51.450 But that is really changing. 00:40:51.450 --> 00:40:54.300 The Leap Manifesto is an example of that in Canada, 00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:56.890 of movements coming together. 00:40:56.890 --> 00:40:59.930 It was endorsed by 220 organizations, 00:40:59.930 --> 00:41:01.880 very broad range of organizations, 00:41:01.880 --> 00:41:05.050 from small grassroots groups to large NGOs 00:41:05.050 --> 00:41:08.690 to the largest trade union in Canada, labor federations, 00:41:08.690 --> 00:41:11.420 coming together to try to sketch out that yes, 00:41:11.420 --> 00:41:13.450 what is a progressive trade policy, 00:41:13.450 --> 00:41:17.280 and how do we get—make 00:41:17.280 --> 00:41:19.710 this bold transition off of fossil fuels 00:41:19.710 --> 00:41:22.630 in a way that begins to heal some of the wounds 00:41:22.630 --> 00:41:25.770 that date back to the brutal founding of our country, 00:41:25.770 --> 00:41:28.780 that puts indigenous rights at the center of it, 00:41:28.780 --> 00:41:30.510 racial justice at the center of it, 00:41:30.510 --> 00:41:33.460 that connects migration to climate change, 00:41:33.460 --> 00:41:35.630 to war, to bad trade deals. 00:41:35.630 --> 00:41:37.540 You know, it is not a perfect document, 00:41:37.540 --> 00:41:40.410 but I include it as an example of what I describe in the book 00:41:40.410 --> 00:41:42.120 as a sort of a reawakening 00:41:42.120 --> 00:41:43.430 of the utopian imagination. 00:41:43.430 --> 00:41:47.280 In this country, I would point to the Vision for Black Lives, 00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:51.210 the document that came out during the election campaign 00:41:51.210 --> 00:41:52.950 out of the Movement for Black Lives, 00:41:52.950 --> 00:41:56.560 which is, you know, an incredibly bold people’s platform. 00:41:57.180 --> 00:42:00.130 And we are in this moment in the sort of Trump resistance 00:42:00.130 --> 00:42:02.280 where there’s a lot of uncertainty 00:42:02.280 --> 00:42:03.940 about what the electoral strategy is. 00:42:03.940 --> 00:42:05.200 You know, I was at the People’s Summit. 00:42:05.200 --> 00:42:06.480 It was fantastic. 00:42:06.480 --> 00:42:08.650 But I didn’t leave it knowing what the plan was, 00:42:08.650 --> 00:42:11.550 in the sense of it wasn’t clear who the candidates 00:42:11.550 --> 00:42:13.110 are going to be the next time around. 00:42:13.110 --> 00:42:14.980 It wasn’t clear if it was a strategy 00:42:14.980 --> 00:42:16.730 wholly inside the Democratic Party 00:42:16.730 --> 00:42:18.750 or whether there were people there who were talking about 00:42:18.750 --> 00:42:20.430 wanting to form a party outside. 00:42:21.140 --> 00:42:23.420 This is—you know, this is a question 00:42:23.420 --> 00:42:24.900 that I certainly can’t settle. 00:42:24.900 --> 00:42:26.270 I’m not in a position to settle this. 00:42:26.270 --> 00:42:30.010 But what I do know is that social movement are surging. 00:42:30.010 --> 00:42:32.980 And I think that we are in a position 00:42:32.980 --> 00:42:35.870 where we could have really bold 00:42:35.870 --> 00:42:38.030 people’s platforms that emerge from below. 00:42:38.030 --> 00:42:39.600 And there’s lots of examples of this starting 00:42:39.600 --> 00:42:41.320 to happen as movements come together 00:42:41.320 --> 00:42:42.770 out of their silos 00:42:42.770 --> 00:42:44.820 to get clear on what the demands are, 00:42:44.820 --> 00:42:46.320 what the yes is. 00:42:46.320 --> 00:42:48.130 And then, whoever the politician is, 00:42:48.130 --> 00:42:49.920 whoever the party is, 00:42:49.920 --> 00:42:52.080 they have to follow that people’s platform. 00:42:52.080 --> 00:42:54.630 AMY GOODMAN: And the media has to be there, too. 00:42:54.630 --> 00:42:56.310 I mean, you had The Globe and Mail 00:42:56.310 --> 00:42:58.740 calling the Leap Manifesto— NAOMI KLEIN: Madness. 00:42:58.740 --> 00:42:59.660 AMY GOODMAN: —a national suicide. 00:42:59.660 --> 00:43:01.020 NAOMI KLEIN: No, that was—" national suicide," 00:43:01.020 --> 00:43:02.510 that may have been the National Post. 00:43:02.510 --> 00:43:04.510 But The Globe and Mail just called it "madness." 00:43:04.510 --> 00:43:06.480 It’s called the Leap Manifesto, 00:43:06.480 --> 00:43:08.410 caring for the planet and each other. 00:43:08.410 --> 00:43:09.920 And they were like, "That’s insane!" 00:43:09.920 --> 00:43:12.750 You know? "It will kill the country." 00:43:12.750 --> 00:43:14.450 AMY GOODMAN: And do you see the media changing, 00:43:14.450 --> 00:43:16.430 as more and more people join media 00:43:16.430 --> 00:43:18.130 in different ways, and the independent media? 00:43:18.130 --> 00:43:20.170 NAOMI KLEIN: Yeah, I mean, what I see is it not—is it not hurting us. 00:43:20.170 --> 00:43:21.680 I mean, the more—I mean, 00:43:21.680 --> 00:43:23.580 one of our national newspapers, the National Post, 00:43:23.580 --> 00:43:27.390 ran 35 negative articles about the Leap Manifesto 00:43:27.390 --> 00:43:29.950 and then refused to publish one letter to the editor 00:43:29.950 --> 00:43:32.530 trying to correct the record, you know? 00:43:32.530 --> 00:43:35.310 But people kept signing it, you know? 00:43:36.020 --> 00:43:39.660 And I guess we have the tools to—you know, 00:43:39.660 --> 00:43:40.960 it’s a 1,400-word document. 00:43:40.960 --> 00:43:41.340 AMY GOODMAN: Thirty seconds. 00:43:41.340 --> 00:43:44.340 NAOMI KLEIN: We can—people can read it themselves and make up their own mind. 00:43:44.340 --> 00:43:48.220 And I think there’s such a distrust of the traditional punditocracy, 00:43:48.220 --> 00:43:50.770 that, Amy, you have described the people 00:43:50.770 --> 00:43:52.710 who know so little about so much. 00:43:52.710 --> 00:43:54.700 And I think people are finally catching up to you 00:43:54.700 --> 00:43:55.930 and understanding that. 00:43:55.930 --> 00:43:57.790 AMY GOODMAN: So, ultimately, do you hold out hope? 00:43:58.730 --> 00:44:02.040 NAOMI KLEIN: You know, I think this is this moment where progressive ideas 00:44:02.040 --> 00:44:04.430 are more popular than they’ve been in my lifetime, 00:44:04.430 --> 00:44:05.750 but on the other hand, 00:44:05.750 --> 00:44:07.920 so are white supremacist ideas. 00:44:07.920 --> 00:44:10.910 And that is playing out on real bodies 00:44:10.910 --> 00:44:12.430 in real time on the streets. 00:44:12.430 --> 00:44:13.630 It is a race against time.