WEBVTT 00:00:03.630 --> 00:00:05.760 AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman. 00:00:05.760 --> 00:00:07.060 As the world marked International 00:00:07.060 --> 00:00:08.460 Women’s Day Wednesday, The New York 00:00:08.460 --> 00:00:09.920 Times began a new project 00:00:09.920 --> 00:00:12.790 highlighting the lives of remarkable women 00:00:12.790 --> 00:00:16.360 who never had an obituary in the paper, until now. 00:00:16.360 --> 00:00:17.940 The list might surprise you. 00:00:18.450 --> 00:00:21.550 It includes the pioneering anti-lynching journalist Ida B. 00:00:21.550 --> 00:00:24.500 Wells; the writer, the poet Sylvia Plath; 00:00:24.500 --> 00:00:27.130 Qiu Jin, who was known as China’s Joan of Arc; 00:00:27.130 --> 00:00:29.840 the groundbreaking photographer Diane Arbus; 00:00:30.350 --> 00:00:32.240 the woman who helped engineer the Brooklyn 00:00:32.240 --> 00:00:34.350 Bridge, Emily Warren Roebling; 00:00:34.350 --> 00:00:37.580 Charlotte Brontë, who wrote Jane Eyre; Henrietta 00:00:37.580 --> 00:00:40.680 Lacks, whose cells led to a medical revolution; 00:00:40.680 --> 00:00:42.290 Ada Lovelace, who is considered to be 00:00:42.290 --> 00:00:44.220 the world’s first computer programmer. 00:00:44.880 --> 00:00:48.090 None of their obituaries appeared in the Times. 00:00:48.090 --> 00:00:50.980 The New York Times is calling their new project "Overlooked." 00:00:50.980 --> 00:00:52.460 It’s part of an effort to make up 00:00:52.460 --> 00:00:56.700 for the paper’s 167-year history of focusing largely 00:00:56.700 --> 00:01:01.280 on men—overwhelmingly on white men—in the obituary pages. 00:01:01.280 --> 00:01:03.330 We’re joined now by Amy Padnani, 00:01:03.330 --> 00:01:05.400 digital editor of obituaries at The New York 00:01:05.400 --> 00:01:08.080 Times, who came up with this idea. 00:01:08.080 --> 00:01:10.570 Well, the good news, when I read The New York 00:01:10.570 --> 00:01:13.430 Times obituaries over the years, when I’ve read them, 00:01:13.430 --> 00:01:16.260 is that it just seemed like women 00:01:16.260 --> 00:01:18.400 and people of color rarely died. 00:01:20.750 --> 00:01:21.860 AMY PADNANI: This was some feedback 00:01:21.860 --> 00:01:23.820 we frequently got from our readers: 00:01:23.820 --> 00:01:26.640 "Why don’t we see more women and minorities in your pages?" 00:01:26.640 --> 00:01:29.210 And that was something that bothered me personally. 00:01:29.210 --> 00:01:32.110 I just joined obituaries in early 2017. 00:01:32.110 --> 00:01:35.340 And as you know, the national debate on race was heating up, 00:01:35.340 --> 00:01:38.600 and the conversation about gender inequality 00:01:38.600 --> 00:01:40.300 was starting to take hold again. 00:01:40.820 --> 00:01:45.090 And it really got me thinking, as a woman of color 00:01:45.090 --> 00:01:47.530 and as an editor at The New York Times, 00:01:47.530 --> 00:01:49.670 "What can I do to advance this conversation?" 00:01:49.670 --> 00:01:51.830 All of these people were coming out of the shadows 00:01:51.830 --> 00:01:55.720 to tell stories of injustices, and it really resonated with me. 00:01:55.720 --> 00:01:59.920 So, I came across, in my day-to-day research, 00:01:59.920 --> 00:02:04.780 a woman who had been credited with bringing tennis 00:02:04.780 --> 00:02:06.960 to the United States from Bermuda. 00:02:06.960 --> 00:02:08.920 Her name is Mary Outerbridge. 00:02:08.920 --> 00:02:10.960 She started the first tennis court 00:02:10.960 --> 00:02:12.670 on Staten Island, of all places. 00:02:12.670 --> 00:02:14.050 And I used to live on Staten Island. 00:02:14.050 --> 00:02:15.540 It’s a place that’s near and dear to my heart. 00:02:15.540 --> 00:02:18.040 And I thought, "What a neat nugget about history!" 00:02:18.040 --> 00:02:19.920 So, I checked to see if we had done 00:02:19.920 --> 00:02:22.190 an obituary on Mary Outerbridge, and we hadn’t. 00:02:23.100 --> 00:02:26.030 So, I kind of tucked that away in the back of my mind. 00:02:27.060 --> 00:02:28.720 And through my research, 00:02:28.720 --> 00:02:31.280 I started coming across more and more names like this. 00:02:32.120 --> 00:02:35.210 We, as you noted, came across some really surprising ones, 00:02:35.210 --> 00:02:37.210 like Diane Arbus and Sylvia Plath. 00:02:37.210 --> 00:02:38.470 AMY GOODMAN: So let’s talk about who they are. 00:02:38.470 --> 00:02:39.730 AMY PADNANI: Sure. AMY GOODMAN: Diane Arbus. 00:02:39.730 --> 00:02:41.860 AMY PADNANI: Sure, the brilliant photographer Diane Arbus. 00:02:41.860 --> 00:02:45.270 She was known for photographing people kind of 00:02:45.270 --> 00:02:47.130 on the outskirts of society, 00:02:48.770 --> 00:02:51.820 sideshow people, dwarfs. 00:02:52.380 --> 00:02:57.150 Some wondered if she did it for attention, in a way, 00:02:57.150 --> 00:02:59.140 but others really thought 00:02:59.140 --> 00:03:01.210 the photos were remarkable and artistic. 00:03:01.210 --> 00:03:05.960 And she had a lot of fame in her own lifetime, 00:03:05.960 --> 00:03:10.330 so we were surprised when there was no obituary about her death. 00:03:10.330 --> 00:03:12.050 AMY GOODMAN: And Ida B. Wells. 00:03:12.050 --> 00:03:14.860 AMY PADNANI: Same, yeah. She was—as you noted, 00:03:14.860 --> 00:03:17.230 she was a pioneer in the anti-lynching movement 00:03:17.230 --> 00:03:20.570 and a journalist who was one of the first 00:03:20.570 --> 00:03:22.920 to produce a newspaper 00:03:22.920 --> 00:03:25.430 by a black person for black people. 00:03:25.430 --> 00:03:29.150 And in her lifetime, she also was extremely famous. 00:03:29.150 --> 00:03:32.860 We even had a little front-page blurb about her marriage, 00:03:32.860 --> 00:03:35.030 but we didn’t have anything about her death. 00:03:35.030 --> 00:03:37.540 AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to my colleague Juan González, 00:03:37.540 --> 00:03:39.190 who wrote about Ida B. 00:03:39.190 --> 00:03:41.750 Wells in his book News for All the People: 00:03:42.510 --> 00:03:44.980 The Epic Story of Race in the American Media. 00:03:44.980 --> 00:03:47.620 He talked about her on our show when his book came out. 00:03:48.520 --> 00:03:51.220 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Ida B. Wells was one of the early muckrakers, 00:03:51.220 --> 00:03:55.040 that is not known as a muckraker in the official histories. 00:03:55.040 --> 00:03:57.070 But in the late 19th century, 00:03:57.070 --> 00:03:59.350 she was the editor of a paper in Memphis, 00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:06.020 and three of her friends were lynched by a mob. 00:04:06.020 --> 00:04:09.700 And she began a crusade against that lynching. 00:04:09.700 --> 00:04:13.940 And her newspaper was burned down while she was out of town. 00:04:13.940 --> 00:04:16.160 And she then went across the country, 00:04:16.160 --> 00:04:19.480 exposing the epidemic of lynching in America 00:04:19.480 --> 00:04:21.360 of African Americans, 00:04:21.360 --> 00:04:23.270 and became a really crusading, 00:04:23.270 --> 00:04:26.960 the first crusading journalist on this issue. 00:04:27.850 --> 00:04:32.490 And she’s known, again, in the histories of the black press, 00:04:32.490 --> 00:04:35.760 as one of the giants of the press, 00:04:35.760 --> 00:04:38.580 but is, again, rarely mentioned 00:04:38.580 --> 00:04:40.850 or talked about in official histories 00:04:42.190 --> 00:04:43.900 of the press in America. 00:04:43.900 --> 00:04:46.900 But she was a key figure, 00:04:46.900 --> 00:04:50.070 and not only was involved with the NAACP later on, 00:04:50.070 --> 00:04:53.800 met with presidents over issues of racial discrimination, 00:04:53.800 --> 00:04:56.940 was a major figure in the late 19th century 00:04:56.940 --> 00:04:58.480 and early 20th century. 00:04:58.480 --> 00:05:01.240 AMY GOODMAN: But her obituary didn’t make it into the Times. 00:05:01.240 --> 00:05:04.370 What about Sylvia Plath? Tell us who she is. 00:05:04.370 --> 00:05:06.440 AMY PADNANI: Sylvia Plath, the famous poet who wrote 00:05:06.440 --> 00:05:07.810 The Bell Jar, 00:05:07.810 --> 00:05:10.690 she also was extremely famous in her lifetime. 00:05:10.690 --> 00:05:13.670 She committed suicide at a fairly young age. 00:05:13.670 --> 00:05:15.700 And we also— 00:05:15.700 --> 00:05:17.370 AMY GOODMAN: In 1963. AMY PADNANI: That’s right. 00:05:17.370 --> 00:05:19.140 And we were also really surprised 00:05:19.140 --> 00:05:20.400 to learn that there was nothing. 00:05:20.400 --> 00:05:23.110 We had stories about her writing, 00:05:23.110 --> 00:05:25.450 but we didn’t have an obituary covering her death. 00:05:26.070 --> 00:05:28.910 AMY GOODMAN: American poet, American novelist, 00:05:28.910 --> 00:05:31.410 short story writer, born in Boston. 00:05:31.410 --> 00:05:34.100 I wanted to go to a clip of Sylvia Plath 00:05:34.100 --> 00:05:38.910 reading from part of her very famous, painful poem, 00:05:38.910 --> 00:05:40.260 "Daddy." 00:05:40.260 --> 00:05:42.700 SYLVIA PLATH: You do not do, you do not do 00:05:42.700 --> 00:05:44.400 Any more, black shoe 00:05:44.400 --> 00:05:46.700 In which I have lived like a foot 00:05:46.700 --> 00:05:49.250 For thirty years, poor and white, 00:05:49.750 --> 00:05:52.010 Barely daring to breathe or Achoo. 00:05:53.060 --> 00:05:54.780 Daddy, I have had to kill you. 00:05:55.750 --> 00:05:58.140 You died before I had time— 00:05:58.140 --> 00:06:01.200 Marble-heavy, a bag full of God, 00:06:01.730 --> 00:06:04.470 Ghastly statue with one gray toe 00:06:04.470 --> 00:06:06.020 Big as a Frisco seal 00:06:06.720 --> 00:06:09.190 And a head in the freakish Atlantic 00:06:09.190 --> 00:06:11.960 Where it pours bean green over blue 00:06:11.960 --> 00:06:14.200 In the waters off beautiful Nauset. 00:06:15.440 --> 00:06:17.090 I used to pray to recover you. 00:06:18.200 --> 00:06:20.300 Ach, du. 00:06:20.300 --> 00:06:22.720 AMY GOODMAN: And I want to turn to that documentary, 00:06:22.720 --> 00:06:25.640 Going Where I’ve Never Been: The Photography of Diane Arbus. 00:06:25.640 --> 00:06:28.220 In this clip, we hear Arbus’s friend Mary Claire 00:06:28.220 --> 00:06:32.270 Costello reading Arbus’s musings on photography. 00:06:32.270 --> 00:06:35.380 Diane Arbus also committed suicide, is that right? 00:06:35.380 --> 00:06:36.440 AMY PADNANI: That’s right. 00:06:36.440 --> 00:06:37.400 MARY CLAIRE COSTELLO: "If I were just curious, 00:06:37.400 --> 00:06:39.420 it would be very hard to say to someone, 00:06:39.420 --> 00:06:41.420 'I want to come to your house and have you talk to me 00:06:41.420 --> 00:06:43.320 and tell me the story of your life.' 00:06:43.320 --> 00:06:45.270 I mean people are going to say, ’You’re crazy.’ 00:06:46.090 --> 00:06:47.690 Plus they’re going to keep mighty guarded. 00:06:48.280 --> 00:06:51.160 But the camera is a kind of license. 00:06:52.240 --> 00:06:54.030 And for a lot of people, 00:06:54.030 --> 00:06:56.310 they want to be paid that much attention 00:06:56.310 --> 00:06:58.870 and that’s a reasonable kind of attention to be paid." 00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.830 AMY GOODMAN: And that was reading the words 00:07:03.830 --> 00:07:05.140 of Diane Arbus. 00:07:05.140 --> 00:07:06.950 Nella Larsen, Amy? 00:07:07.730 --> 00:07:10.470 AMY PADNANI: So, Nella Larsen was a literary star 00:07:10.470 --> 00:07:14.000 during the Harlem Renaissance in the 1920s and 1930s. 00:07:14.000 --> 00:07:15.280 She wrote a couple of books, 00:07:15.280 --> 00:07:17.330 that are still discussed in classrooms today, 00:07:17.330 --> 00:07:19.160 addressing issues of race and pressures 00:07:19.160 --> 00:07:21.590 that middle-class black families would feel. 00:07:21.590 --> 00:07:26.680 And when—so, she was accused of plagiarism later on in her life, 00:07:26.680 --> 00:07:29.490 and she eventually withdrew from the limelight. 00:07:29.490 --> 00:07:31.450 She died alone in her apartment, 00:07:31.450 --> 00:07:33.470 and her body was found days later. 00:07:33.470 --> 00:07:35.030 So she kind of died in obscurity. 00:07:35.030 --> 00:07:37.430 AMY GOODMAN: Explain this—I’ve got the section 00:07:37.430 --> 00:07:38.720 that’s coming out on Sunday. 00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:42.870 The New York Times, the front page, it’s almost white, 00:07:42.870 --> 00:07:45.910 but it’s got the photographs leaching through 00:07:45.910 --> 00:07:47.260 from the inside, 00:07:47.260 --> 00:07:49.730 of these 15 women, to the outside. 00:07:49.730 --> 00:07:51.810 AMY PADNANI: This was a concept we came up with. 00:07:51.810 --> 00:07:54.420 We wanted it to have that feeling of: 00:07:55.160 --> 00:07:56.870 These women are no longer overlooked. 00:07:56.870 --> 00:07:59.700 They’re now coming out of the woodworks. 00:07:59.700 --> 00:08:01.040 They’re coming out of the shadows, 00:08:01.040 --> 00:08:02.470 and we’re finally giving them their due. 00:08:04.980 --> 00:08:08.460 AMY GOODMAN: What percentage of people in the obituaries 00:08:09.370 --> 00:08:10.670 are still white men? 00:08:12.310 --> 00:08:14.610 AMY PADNANI: About four out of five obits 00:08:14.610 --> 00:08:16.600 are on white men—are on men. 00:08:16.600 --> 00:08:17.970 AMY GOODMAN: What are they? AMY PADNANI: Sorry, on men. 00:08:17.970 --> 00:08:20.760 I don’t have the figures for people of color. 00:08:20.760 --> 00:08:24.390 So, yeah, about 80 percent of our obituaries are about men. 00:08:24.390 --> 00:08:27.080 AMY GOODMAN: So, how will this affect the obituaries, 00:08:27.080 --> 00:08:28.320 going forward? 00:08:28.320 --> 00:08:30.410 AMY PADNANI: Well, I’m really hoping that it will help 00:08:30.410 --> 00:08:31.110 raise awareness 00:08:31.110 --> 00:08:32.370 and continue the conversation. 00:08:32.370 --> 00:08:35.290 We also recently hired our very first gender editor, 00:08:35.290 --> 00:08:37.880 Jessica Bennett, and we have a race-related team. 00:08:37.880 --> 00:08:42.200 And their goals are to infuse the entire newsroom 00:08:42.200 --> 00:08:44.720 with a different way of thinking. 00:08:44.720 --> 00:08:47.070 So, they’re not relegated to this one corner 00:08:47.070 --> 00:08:49.210 of the newspaper. They’re everywhere. 00:08:49.210 --> 00:08:51.590 And they’re really tasked with changing the tone, 00:08:51.590 --> 00:08:55.150 the white male tone of media and of The New York Times, 00:08:55.150 --> 00:08:57.000 and bringing new perspectives. 00:08:57.000 --> 00:09:00.990 So, I’m very hopeful that will help with our initiative, too. 00:09:00.990 --> 00:09:06.290 AMY GOODMAN: Qiu Jin, can you talk about who she is—she was? 00:09:06.290 --> 00:09:07.850 AMY PADNANI: That’s one of my favorite pieces. 00:09:07.850 --> 00:09:11.330 She was a feminist, a revolutionary in China. 00:09:11.330 --> 00:09:12.730 She was a poet. 00:09:12.730 --> 00:09:17.010 And she was a crossdresser. 00:09:17.010 --> 00:09:20.230 She fought against norms for women. 00:09:20.230 --> 00:09:22.320 She liked to make bombs. She liked swords. 00:09:22.320 --> 00:09:23.790 She liked winemaking. 00:09:23.790 --> 00:09:26.850 She left her family and decided to study. 00:09:26.850 --> 00:09:30.170 And this is 1906, when she returns to China 00:09:30.170 --> 00:09:32.450 and engages in an uprising 00:09:32.450 --> 00:09:35.250 against the government and fought for women. 00:09:35.250 --> 00:09:36.690 She was eventually executed. 00:09:37.270 --> 00:09:40.090 But her story is one of the most powerful in that package. 00:09:40.770 --> 00:09:43.170 AMY GOODMAN: But didn’t make it into the Times in her day. 00:09:43.170 --> 00:09:43.700 AMY PADNANI: It didn’t. 00:09:43.700 --> 00:09:46.060 We didn’t really have—this is my speculation. 00:09:46.060 --> 00:09:48.960 We didn’t have as much of an international focus. 00:09:48.960 --> 00:09:51.700 We often focused largely on New York even, 00:09:51.700 --> 00:09:53.220 or just the United States. 00:09:53.220 --> 00:09:54.960 AMY GOODMAN: How do the decisions get made? 00:09:55.770 --> 00:09:57.880 AMY PADNANI: These days, we get submissions 00:09:57.880 --> 00:09:59.970 from all over—from readers, 00:09:59.970 --> 00:10:03.900 from social media, from other newspapers, wire services. 00:10:03.900 --> 00:10:05.200 And every day, we meet, 00:10:05.200 --> 00:10:07.540 and we look at a list of all the candidates. 00:10:07.540 --> 00:10:09.820 And we judge based on newsworthiness: 00:10:09.820 --> 00:10:11.830 Did that person make news in their life? 00:10:11.830 --> 00:10:14.250 If so, then their death is news, as well. 00:10:14.250 --> 00:10:16.750 We do a lot of research. We talk to people who knew them. 00:10:17.810 --> 00:10:20.340 We read old articles, did through our archives. 00:10:20.340 --> 00:10:21.860 We really do our homework. 00:10:21.860 --> 00:10:23.400 AMY GOODMAN: One of The New York Times 00:10:23.400 --> 00:10:27.260 obits that will appear on Sunday is titled 00:10:27.260 --> 00:10:28.860 "Marsha P. Johnson: 00:10:28.860 --> 00:10:31.150 A transgender pioneer and activist 00:10:31.150 --> 00:10:34.150 who was a fixture of Greenwich Village street life." 00:10:34.150 --> 00:10:37.610 I want to turn to Marsha Johnson in her own words. 00:10:37.610 --> 00:10:39.070 Listen carefully. 00:10:40.140 --> 00:10:42.550 MARSHA P. JOHNSON: I learned how to survive, 1963, 00:10:43.590 --> 00:10:45.220 for better or worse. 00:10:45.220 --> 00:10:47.430 And I said, "You know, I’ve got the lord on my side," 00:10:48.160 --> 00:10:50.010 and I took him in my heart with me, 00:10:50.520 --> 00:10:53.640 and I came to the city, for better or worse. 00:10:54.200 --> 00:10:57.560 And he said, "You know you might wind up with nothing," 00:10:58.160 --> 00:11:01.050 because, you know, me and Jesus are always talking. 00:11:01.050 --> 00:11:05.520 And I said, "Honey, I don’t care if I never have nothing ever 00:11:05.520 --> 00:11:08.980 ’til the day I die. All I want is my freedom." 00:11:08.980 --> 00:11:10.780 And that’s how I came, 00:11:10.780 --> 00:11:13.550 and that’s how I’ve been living here ever since I came, 00:11:13.550 --> 00:11:17.340 day after day, on whatever I have. 00:11:17.340 --> 00:11:20.970 I don’t even care if I injure all these toes tonight. 00:11:22.070 --> 00:11:25.790 AMY GOODMAN: Tell us more about who Marsha P. Johnson was. 00:11:25.790 --> 00:11:29.880 AMY PADNANI: So, Marsha P. Johnson was a trans pioneer. 00:11:29.880 --> 00:11:33.310 She was very active in the uprising at Stonewall 00:11:33.310 --> 00:11:34.190 in Greenwich Village 00:11:34.190 --> 00:11:36.120 that led to the first gay pride parade, 00:11:36.120 --> 00:11:38.960 that led to a lot of other rights and recognition 00:11:38.960 --> 00:11:40.190 for gay people. 00:11:40.190 --> 00:11:43.340 She was also a prostitute, which she was not afraid of. 00:11:43.340 --> 00:11:45.640 She was arrested more than a hundred times. 00:11:45.640 --> 00:11:47.410 And she was asked many times, 00:11:47.410 --> 00:11:49.600 "What does the P in your name stand for?" 00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:52.080 And she said, "It stands for 'Pay it no mind.'" 00:11:53.980 --> 00:11:56.920 There are a lot of great details like that in her obituary, 00:11:56.920 --> 00:11:58.510 as well. It’s a great read. 00:11:58.510 --> 00:12:01.870 AMY GOODMAN: And then there is the author Charlotte Brontë. 00:12:01.870 --> 00:12:04.590 Among other books, Jane Eyre is hers. 00:12:05.160 --> 00:12:07.210 But she didn’t make it into the Times. 00:12:07.210 --> 00:12:10.910 AMY PADNANI: No, as she was—she died in, I believe, 1855. 00:12:10.910 --> 00:12:12.880 We started publishing in 1851. 00:12:13.400 --> 00:12:15.880 I don’t know if that’s what had something to do with it. 00:12:15.880 --> 00:12:19.120 But for whatever reason, she didn’t receive one. 00:12:19.120 --> 00:12:20.440 AMY GOODMAN: It would be fascinating to see 00:12:20.440 --> 00:12:22.360 who did make it into the Times 00:12:22.360 --> 00:12:25.660 on those obituary pages in 1855. 00:12:25.660 --> 00:12:27.340 AMY PADNANI: That’s one of the things I’m looking into, 00:12:27.340 --> 00:12:28.350 because I’m really curious. 00:12:28.350 --> 00:12:30.230 We didn’t have obituaries every single day back 00:12:30.230 --> 00:12:31.310 then like we do now, 00:12:31.310 --> 00:12:33.230 and the modern obituary is very different. 00:12:33.780 --> 00:12:36.250 At times, we were like society pages, 00:12:36.250 --> 00:12:37.530 where women were actually 00:12:37.530 --> 00:12:39.680 referred to by their husband’s name: 00:12:39.680 --> 00:12:41.330 Mrs. husband’s name. 00:12:42.380 --> 00:12:44.680 So, digging through to find out 00:12:44.680 --> 00:12:47.430 if these women had obituaries was a complicated process. 00:12:48.400 --> 00:12:50.610 So, there are a lot of—yeah, 00:12:50.610 --> 00:12:52.100 there are a lot of strange things 00:12:52.100 --> 00:12:54.030 that we uncovered when we were looking back. 00:12:54.030 --> 00:12:55.500 AMY GOODMAN: Now, people may have learned 00:12:55.500 --> 00:12:56.880 about Henrietta Lacks, 00:12:56.880 --> 00:12:59.270 who weren’t Henrietta Lacks’s family, 00:12:59.270 --> 00:13:00.600 through the remarkable book 00:13:00.600 --> 00:13:02.760 that I think is still on the best-seller list, 00:13:02.760 --> 00:13:07.330 by Rebecca Skloot, The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. 00:13:07.330 --> 00:13:10.750 Talk about who this remarkable woman was 00:13:10.750 --> 00:13:12.340 and the role she played, 00:13:12.340 --> 00:13:15.250 and continues to play, in medical research today. 00:13:15.840 --> 00:13:18.210 AMY PADNANI: She was a poor, uneducated black woman 00:13:18.210 --> 00:13:21.970 whose cells were used for medical research unknowingly. 00:13:21.970 --> 00:13:26.150 And it has led to treatments for cancer, 00:13:26.150 --> 00:13:29.010 treatments for really common illnesses today. 00:13:29.010 --> 00:13:32.160 She had these regenerative cells that were unique, 00:13:32.160 --> 00:13:35.240 and they aided in these medical discoveries 00:13:35.240 --> 00:13:37.390 that have been benefiting people for decades. 00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:39.910 So, it’s pretty amazing that she never got 00:13:39.910 --> 00:13:41.480 the recognition for it. 00:13:41.480 --> 00:13:43.860 AMY GOODMAN: And people can also see the amazing film, 00:13:43.860 --> 00:13:47.430 Oprah Winfrey film, The Immortal Life of Henrietta Lacks. 00:13:47.430 --> 00:13:50.790 At the end of this series, that is coming out, 00:13:50.790 --> 00:13:54.350 the beginning—this special section is beginning on Sunday, 00:13:54.350 --> 00:13:56.920 called "Overlooked," but not ending on Sunday, right? 00:13:56.920 --> 00:13:58.650 AMY PADNANI: That’s right. This is continuing on. 00:13:58.650 --> 00:14:01.450 We have already a couple of dozen more stories 00:14:01.450 --> 00:14:02.770 that we’re going to put out, 00:14:02.770 --> 00:14:06.200 probably every week, one or more. It could vary. 00:14:06.200 --> 00:14:09.240 But it seems that there is a real hunger 00:14:09.240 --> 00:14:10.690 and a real need for it. 00:14:10.690 --> 00:14:14.010 We had a form people could fill out to submit names 00:14:14.010 --> 00:14:15.540 for additional subjects, 00:14:15.540 --> 00:14:19.130 and in 24 hours we had 1,200 submissions. 00:14:20.380 --> 00:14:22.320 AMY GOODMAN: So, you have a fascinating article 00:14:22.320 --> 00:14:24.520 at the end of this section, 00:14:24.520 --> 00:14:29.320 "Why Most Obits Are Still of White Men." Explain. 00:14:30.280 --> 00:14:32.400 AMY PADNANI: This was written by the head of the obituaries desk. 00:14:32.400 --> 00:14:37.170 And we often say that obituaries are backward-looking. 00:14:37.170 --> 00:14:39.240 We’re not representing society today. 00:14:39.240 --> 00:14:43.030 We’re representing society from a couple of generations ago. 00:14:43.030 --> 00:14:45.530 And a couple of generations ago, women and people of color 00:14:45.530 --> 00:14:48.200 were not really invited to the table to make a difference. 00:14:48.200 --> 00:14:50.060 They had to push through barriers. 00:14:50.060 --> 00:14:53.780 And so often, they had to work very hard to be recognized. 00:14:53.780 --> 00:14:56.940 So, the obits that we published today 00:14:56.940 --> 00:14:58.160 are representative of that. 00:14:58.160 --> 00:15:01.240 And that’s part of the reason why there’s such an imbalance. 00:15:01.240 --> 00:15:03.870 White men were more invited to make a difference. 00:15:03.870 --> 00:15:06.520 White men were recognized for the differences, 00:15:06.520 --> 00:15:08.440 for their contributions to society. 00:15:08.440 --> 00:15:10.870 AMY GOODMAN: But, as you point out, it’s still going on today, 00:15:10.870 --> 00:15:13.900 the overwhelming majority of men in the obits—not that 00:15:14.700 --> 00:15:16.750 anyone wants to be on an obit page, 00:15:17.770 --> 00:15:20.590 but that the overwhelming majority of obituaries, 00:15:20.590 --> 00:15:23.110 80 percent, are still white men. 00:15:23.660 --> 00:15:27.050 AMY PADNANI: Yeah, because we’re still providing a rearview look 00:15:27.050 --> 00:15:29.160 at what society looked like. 00:15:29.160 --> 00:15:32.260 So, we’re hoping—I mean, naturally, going forward, 00:15:32.260 --> 00:15:35.530 we’re starting already to see more women and people of color. 00:15:35.530 --> 00:15:37.850 We have a list of advance obituaries for people 00:15:37.850 --> 00:15:38.840 who have not yet died. 00:15:38.840 --> 00:15:41.030 And that list happens to be even more diverse 00:15:41.030 --> 00:15:42.700 than what you see day to day. 00:15:42.700 --> 00:15:44.390 We just have to wait for those people to die. 00:15:44.890 --> 00:15:47.820 AMY GOODMAN: Not that anyone wants to get into that category. 00:15:47.820 --> 00:15:51.150 The last page simply is a white page that says, 00:15:51.150 --> 00:15:52.740 "The truth will not be silent. 00:15:52.740 --> 00:15:57.680 The truth will not be contained. The truth has a voice." 00:15:57.680 --> 00:16:02.630 So, you have your section obits, and then you’ve got the omits. 00:16:02.630 --> 00:16:04.560 AMY PADNANI: Mm-hmm, that’s a good way to put it. 00:16:05.070 --> 00:16:09.000 This coincided with our truth campaign, 00:16:10.470 --> 00:16:13.860 about our commitment to good journalism 00:16:13.860 --> 00:16:15.470 and uncovering the truth. 00:16:15.470 --> 00:16:18.550 So, that’s part of the reason why that’s there. 00:16:19.200 --> 00:16:21.960 AMY GOODMAN: So I want to end going from Henrietta Lacks, 00:16:21.960 --> 00:16:23.710 doctors culturing her cells 00:16:23.710 --> 00:16:25.580 without permission from her family 00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:27.540 and using it for medical research 00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:30.400 that has saved so many countless lives, 00:16:31.300 --> 00:16:32.530 to Madhubala, 00:16:33.060 --> 00:16:36.150 an Indian film actress who appeared in classic films 00:16:36.150 --> 00:16:40.390 in Hindi cinema, a Bollywood legend. 00:16:40.390 --> 00:16:42.870 AMY PADNANI: Mm-hmm, yeah. She appeared in dozens of films, 00:16:42.870 --> 00:16:44.550 in different languages. 00:16:44.550 --> 00:16:46.730 She led a poetically tragic, 00:16:46.730 --> 00:16:48.770 short life that’s often been compared 00:16:48.770 --> 00:16:50.110 to Marilyn Monroe’s life. 00:16:50.860 --> 00:16:53.540 She was an actress whose father pushed her 00:16:53.540 --> 00:16:55.530 and pushed her to continue acting, 00:16:55.530 --> 00:16:58.860 even when she had reached her limit. 00:16:58.860 --> 00:17:01.210 And she also had a tragic love life, 00:17:01.210 --> 00:17:03.360 never got to marry the man that she wanted to. 00:17:04.560 --> 00:17:07.610 So, and she also died young of an illness. 00:17:08.740 --> 00:17:09.640 So— 00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:11.620 AMY GOODMAN: Well, and finally, Amy, 00:17:11.620 --> 00:17:14.990 you are really curating this whole section. 00:17:14.990 --> 00:17:17.800 Talk about how, when you came to the Times, 00:17:17.800 --> 00:17:19.670 you understood what was happening, 00:17:19.670 --> 00:17:21.930 and what it meant to push this forward. 00:17:21.930 --> 00:17:24.970 Did you face any resistance in what you’re doing now? 00:17:25.540 --> 00:17:26.850 AMY PADNANI: Surprisingly, no. 00:17:26.850 --> 00:17:28.940 I thought that maybe there would be some, 00:17:28.940 --> 00:17:31.430 but everybody has embraced it so far. 00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:33.220 There’s been so much excitement. 00:17:33.220 --> 00:17:37.870 In fact, about 50 writers in the building jumped up and said, 00:17:37.870 --> 00:17:40.010 "What can I do? I want to write something." 00:17:40.010 --> 00:17:42.270 And then we had a team of editors sit in one room 00:17:42.270 --> 00:17:45.780 and edit 40 pieces in one week. 00:17:45.780 --> 00:17:48.850 So, there are photo editors who are involved. 00:17:48.850 --> 00:17:51.030 Pretty much from every corner of the newsroom, 00:17:51.030 --> 00:17:51.790 people are involved. 00:17:51.790 --> 00:17:53.870 And the fact that we have all these submissions 00:17:53.870 --> 00:17:56.520 now shows what an important project it is. 00:17:56.520 --> 00:17:58.380 I think people recognized that from the beginning. 00:17:59.070 --> 00:18:00.720 AMY GOODMAN: Thank you so much, Amy Padnani, 00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:04.690 digital editor of obituaries at The New York Times. 00:18:04.690 --> 00:18:07.550 And again, we will link to this special section 00:18:07.550 --> 00:18:09.180 that begins on Sunday, 00:18:10.000 --> 00:18:13.050 "Overlooked," revisiting 167 years of New York 00:18:13.050 --> 00:18:14.950 Times history to provide obituaries 00:18:14.950 --> 00:18:17.050 to women who never got them. 00:18:17.050 --> 00:18:19.470 If people want to make suggestions, where can they go? 00:18:20.370 --> 00:18:24.030 AMY PADNANI: From that very page, NYTimes.com/overlooked, 00:18:24.030 --> 00:18:26.070 there’s a link to the form, where they can fill it out. 00:18:26.590 --> 00:18:28.220 AMY GOODMAN: Well, Amy Padnani, I want to thank you 00:18:28.220 --> 00:18:30.160 so much for being with us, 00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:32.240 for coming up with this very important idea. 00:18:32.240 --> 00:18:34.430 We’ll see if filling in the gaps of the past 00:18:34.430 --> 00:18:36.450 makes the difference in the present and the future. 00:18:36.450 --> 00:18:39.530 But we’re going to link to this remarkable special section 00:18:39.530 --> 00:18:40.900 at democracynow.org. 00:18:40.900 --> 00:18:43.820 It’s called "Overlooked." I’m Amy Goodman. 00:18:43.820 --> 00:18:49.050 Thanks so much for joining us.