WEBVTT

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AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy
Now!,

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democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman,
with Nermeen Shaikh,

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as we continue with Part 2
of our conversation

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with Jason Stanley, philosophy
professor at Yale University.

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His new book,
just out, is titled

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How Fascism Works:
The Politics of Us and Them.

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His previous book,
How Propaganda Works.

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So, I’m sure you’ve heard
the criticism,

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Professor Stanley,

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that it is ridiculous
to talk about Nazi Germany,

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to make comparisons
to Trump’s America right now,

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to talk about fascism.

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Why do you balk
when you hear that?

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JASON STANLEY: Well, my work is
about rhetoric and propaganda.

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And I don’t think
there is any doubt

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that we are seeing classic
fascist rhetorical tropes

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and propaganda tropes
right now.

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Now, are we seeing
fascist policy implemented?

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Are we seeing opponents
imprisoned?

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Well, not yet,
we’re not seeing that,

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partly because our institutions
are holding up, perhaps,

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partly because there isn’t
an intention of going that far.

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We are, however, seeing
a one-party state already.

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We’re seeing—Arendt warns us of
that stage, of that prefascist—

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: What
do you mean,

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"one-party state"?

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JASON STANLEY: A one-party state

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is when politicians
of one party betray,

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in Hannah Arendt’s words,
loyalty to party over parties,

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by which she means loyalty
to their political party

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over a multiparty
political system.

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And I think
we are seeing that.

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I think we are seeing members
of one political party

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betraying loyalty
to their own party

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over having
a multiparty system.

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We’re seeing two governor
—gubernatorial candidates,

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Kris Kobach in Kansas,
Brian [Kemp] in Georgia,

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who are running on a platform
of voter suppression.

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That’s why they’re running.

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So, we’re seeing—we’re seeing
very strong elements

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of a one-party state,

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which Arendt warns us
is a prefascist moment.

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But so, I don’t think
it’s at all too extreme

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to be talking about this.

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We have to remember
that not all fascist governments

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ended up doing
what the Nazis did.

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Mussolini didn’t.

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There was a—there’s a number
of fascist movements

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that did not result
in genocide.

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Right now, Erdogan in Turkey,
Putin, Orbán,

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but they all are harshly
homophobic,

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harshly sexist,
harshly xenophobic.

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And I don’t think there’s any
question we’re seeing that.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: And you
mentioned Brazil

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in the first part
of our conversation.

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JASON STANLEY: Bolsonaro.

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Look at how Bolsonaro
is running.

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You know, "I’d rather have
a dead son than a gay son."

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"The problem was not
torturing leftists;

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the problem was not—the problem
was not killing them."

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So, we’re seeing people
outcompete each other for—

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AMY GOODMAN: Bolsonaro saying
he didn’t want to—saying

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to a congresswoman,
"You’re too ugly to rape."

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JASON STANLEY: Mm-hmm,

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saying that
when he first—he had four sons,

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and then, when he got weak,
he had a daughter.

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AMY GOODMAN: And then you have
President Trump’s

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overall love of autocrats,
like Duterte of the Philippines.

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JASON STANLEY: Absolutely, which
is enabling those autocrats.

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This is a mutual movement,
like the 19—late '20s

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and early ’30s

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with the global—with
the universal fascist movement.

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When Trump says, "Each of us
is about how we're great,"

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well, that taps into
the ultranationalism

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of the late ’20s
and the early ’30s,

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the response to globalization,

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where it was the same thing,
and they feed off each other.

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AMY GOODMAN: How did Hitler
rise to power?

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JASON STANLEY: Hitler rose
to power in a—

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AMY GOODMAN: An election.

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JASON STANLEY: What?

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AMY GOODMAN: Election.

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JASON STANLEY: By election.
By election. By running.

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By being harshly—by attacking
democracy as corrupt.

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By presenting himself
as anti-corruption.

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By attacking the—by very much
the politics.

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By speaking in extreme ways
that shocked people

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and led people to think
that he was really authentic,

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unlike the sort of weak
hypocrisy of democracy.

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AMY GOODMAN: I mean,
he was mocked.

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He was a third-party candidate.

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But you had parties
having to form alliances.

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JASON STANLEY: Yeah.
We always see

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in these moments—just like
The Wall Street Journal

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looks like they just endorsed
Bolsonaro,

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we always see
the business elite party

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with the ultranationalists.

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We see the oligarchs in Russia
party—going together with Putin,

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because they have the same
enemies—labor unions, you know.

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So they think, "Oh, we can
smash the labor unions."

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We’re seeing the Upper Midwest
movement, the DeVoses,

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the forces that helped smash
right—behind right-to-work laws,

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link up with this
ultranationalist movement.

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And this is very typical.
We saw this in the 1930s.

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You know, I speak in my book—in
How Fascism Works,

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I speak about Hitler’s speech
to the industrialists.

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He says, "Look,
I’m going to protect you

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from government regulations.

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You’ll have your domain.
I’ll have my domain."

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, yeah,
you talk about that,

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government regulations,

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Hitler saying that
he wants to be

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protected—he will protect
the people

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from government regulations.
But also, as you point out,

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one of the central pillars
of fascism

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is the prevailing sense
of victimhood,

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with majority populations
claiming victimhood.

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So I want to turn
to Trump’s comments

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during the protests
around then-Supreme Court

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nominee Brett Kavanaugh’s
confirmation.

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After 300 protesters
were arrested on Capitol Hill

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last week,
Trump tweeted, quote,

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"The very rude
elevator screamers

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are paid professionals
only looking to make

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Senators look bad.
Don’t fall for it!

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Also, look at all
of the professionally made

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identical signs.
Paid for by Soros and others.

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These are not signs made
in the basement from love!

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#Troublemakers," he tweeted.
Earlier this week,

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Trump
mocked California Democratic

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Senator Dianne Feinstein,

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claiming she leaked a letter
written by professor

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Christine Blasey
Ford alleging

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Kavanaugh tried to rape her
when they were teenagers.

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Trump then laughed
as his supporters chanted

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"Lock her up!"

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referring not to
Hillary Clinton,

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but to Senator Feinstein.

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: How
about Senator Feinstein?

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That’s another
beauty.[crowd boos]

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That’s a beauty!

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... Did you leak
the documents? Huh?

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Huh? What?
What? No, I didn’t do.

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Did we leak?
Did we leak?

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No, no, no, we didn’t.
Did you ever see?

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No—she goes, no—he just said,
no, we didn’t leak.

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AUDIENCE: Lock her up!
Lock her up! Lock her up!

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Lock her up! Lock her up!
Lock her up!

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: Now, last week,
Trump also claimed

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that it was a scary time
for young men in the U.S.

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It’s a
very scary time

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for young men in America,

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when you can be guilty
of something

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that you may not be guilty of.

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This is a very, very—this is
a very difficult time.

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What’s happening here
has much more to do

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than even the appointment
of a Supreme Court justice.

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It really does.

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You could be somebody that was
perfect your entire life,

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and somebody could accuse
you of something.

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Doesn’t necessarily have to be
a woman, as everybody’s saying,

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but somebody could accuse
you of something,

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and you’re
automatically guilty.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, that’s
Trump saying

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that it’s a difficult time
for young men

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and also mocking women
protesters

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and also mocking—we didn’t play

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that—mocking the testimony
of Christine Blasey Ford.

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So, can you talk about this
in the context of fascism

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and the pillar that
you name—majority populations

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claiming victimhood?

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JASON STANLEY: Yes. This is just
probably the dominant theme

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in countries that fall prey
to fascist politics.

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Hitler just talked endlessly
about the victimization

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of Germany in World War I.

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I think we find now
the purest form of this

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in the men’s rights movement,
the backlash to feminism.

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It’s always the case
in fascist ideology

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that the dominant group
is victims of liberalism,

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feminism, cultural Marxism,
movements for equality,

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because the idea
in fascism is hierarchy.

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And so, the idea is one group
always has to rule,

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so any group that attempts
to gain equality

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is represented
as really trying to take over.

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AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to
another clip of President Trump.

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And this is about
don’t believe what you see.

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Now, your previous book
is about propaganda.

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So let’s go once again
to that clip.

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PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:Just
remember, what you’re seeing

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and what you’re reading
is not what’s happening.

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… Because we have to make
our country truly great again.

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Remember,
"Make America Great Again,"

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and then in
two-and-a-half years,

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it’s called
"Keep America Great."

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AMY GOODMAN: So, I want to
go—address two issues in this.

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One is don’t believe
what you hear and see.

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And the other one is—goes
to your first pillar

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in your 10 pillars of fascism,

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where you talk about
the mythic past,

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"Make America Great Again,"

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and how that compares
to other authoritarian leaders.

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JASON STANLEY: So, everything
in fascism

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is about smashing the truth

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and replacing it
with loyalty and power.

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So, the mythic past,
the make—is about you connect

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people—the fascists—in times of

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when fascists—fascist
politicians

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seek to connect people’s anxiety
with a sense of loss.

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So they create
this glorious past,

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and they say, "The reason
that you feel anxious,

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the reason you’re angry
and fearful, is you lost.

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You lost that past when you were
respected just for being a man,

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just for being white,
just for being Hindu

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or whatever the identity is."

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And so, it creates this sense
of incredible yearning loss.

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And of course it’s a lie,

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because there never was
such a great mythic past.

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So, you get people used
to this politics of fiction,

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this politics of myth.

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And then you—they get
addicted to you.

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They get addicted to you
as a person who channels that.

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And you also want
to show your power.

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That’s a second feature
of "only believe me."

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You want to show that
you’re so powerful and macho

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that you’re more powerful
than reality itself.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, I want
to ask you about another pillar

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of fascist politics

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that you’ve identified
in the book,

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and that’s
anti-intellectualism.

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Now, arguably—and
in the context of Trump.

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Arguably, anti-intellectualism
has been present

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throughout much
of American history.

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Why do you think
that the anti-intellectualism

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that exists today

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is so different
from that which preceded it?

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JASON STANLEY: Well, one of
the things—one of the ways

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in which my book differs

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from the other
crisis-of-democracy books

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is I emphasize the continuity
of today with the past.

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I don’t think we should be
talking about what’s happening

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as some deviation
or break from the past.

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I think we should talk about it
as as a gut-check moment

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to face our own proclivities.

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We’ve always had these
anti-intellectual sentiments.

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I’m not saying that anti-elitism
is always unhealthy.

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It’s often quite healthy.
But in moments when—

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: But anti-elitism
and anti-intellectualism

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aren’t the same thing.

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JASON STANLEY: Are not
the same thing.

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Anti-intellectualism
is an attack on truth,

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an attack on expertise,
an attack on education.

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When Trump says, you know,
the least that—you know,

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"The non-educated,
those are my base,"

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that echoes Mein Kampf,
when Hitler says propaganda

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should be directed
to the least-educated men.

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Hitler mocks people who—he says,
"Look at these demagogues.

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They’re criticized
for not making sense."

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But actually—

00:12:10.690 --> 00:12:11.930
AMY GOODMAN: And, of course,
Hillary Clinton

00:12:11.930 --> 00:12:13.290
handed this to him
in a basket

00:12:13.290 --> 00:12:15.480
by talking about
the "basket of deplorables."

00:12:15.480 --> 00:12:18.720
JASON STANLEY: Yes.
The one mistake she made,

00:12:18.720 --> 00:12:20.670
which was endlessly
thrown in her face,

00:12:21.490 --> 00:12:24.560
in contrast to the infinite
number of horrific comments

00:12:24.560 --> 00:12:29.360
Mr. Trump made on the trail.
When you’re a liberal Democrat,

00:12:30.200 --> 00:12:32.460
you cannot ever make
a single mistake.

00:12:32.460 --> 00:12:34.000
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Right.
Well, I want to turn to—I mean,

00:12:34.000 --> 00:12:38.140
you mentioned earlier
that fascist leaders

00:12:38.650 --> 00:12:43.180
produce fears about certain
kinds of equalizing ideologies,

00:12:43.180 --> 00:12:45.470
whether it’s feminism
or communism,

00:12:45.470 --> 00:12:47.550
and, of course,
also socialism.

00:12:47.550 --> 00:12:50.750
So, I want to turn to comments
that Trump has made,

00:12:50.750 --> 00:12:55.330
recent warnings he’s issued
on the dangers of socialism.

00:12:55.330 --> 00:12:57.570
This is Trump addressing
the U.N. General Assembly

00:12:57.570 --> 00:12:59.210
last month.

00:12:59.210 --> 00:13:00.550
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: 
Virtually everywhere,

00:13:00.550 --> 00:13:03.380
socialism or communism
has been tried.

00:13:04.310 --> 00:13:07.170
It has produced suffering,
corruption and decay.

00:13:08.520 --> 00:13:13.790
Socialism’s thirst for power
leads to expansion,

00:13:13.790 --> 00:13:15.700
incursion and oppression.

00:13:16.970 --> 00:13:20.220
All nations of the world
should resist socialism

00:13:21.330 --> 00:13:25.180
and the misery
that it brings to everyone.

00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:28.490
NERMEEN SHAIKH: On Wednesday,
Trump wrote an op-ed in USA

00:13:28.490 --> 00:13:31.350
Today asking Americans
to vote for Republicans

00:13:31.350 --> 00:13:33.910
in the midterm elections,
writing, quote,

00:13:33.910 --> 00:13:36.560
"The new Democrats
are radical socialists

00:13:36.560 --> 00:13:39.540
who want to model America’s
economy after Venezuela.

00:13:40.370 --> 00:13:43.330
If Democrats win control
of Congress this November,

00:13:43.330 --> 00:13:47.640
we will come dangerously closer
to socialism in America,"

00:13:47.640 --> 00:13:48.920
Trump wrote.

00:13:48.920 --> 00:13:52.840
So, Jason, could you talk about
that, the specter of socialism?

00:13:52.840 --> 00:13:54.580
JASON STANLEY: So that’s
a classic move.

00:13:55.370 --> 00:13:58.840
By the way, I don’t want to say
that any—any one of these moves

00:13:58.840 --> 00:14:01.200
is sort of familiar
from right-wing politics,

00:14:01.200 --> 00:14:02.830
but when they all come together,

00:14:02.830 --> 00:14:04.490
that’s when you really
have to be concerned.

00:14:04.490 --> 00:14:06.610
This move of painting
the center-left

00:14:06.610 --> 00:14:08.830
as dangerous
social—as socialists

00:14:08.830 --> 00:14:11.070
and communists
is extremely familiar.

00:14:12.120 --> 00:14:15.910
Goebbels himself said,
"The ordinary Bürger,

00:14:15.910 --> 00:14:17.930
the ordinary citizen,
will not vote for us,

00:14:17.930 --> 00:14:20.360
unless they’re terrified
that the communists,

00:14:20.360 --> 00:14:22.800
that the Bolsheviks are coming
for their property.

00:14:22.800 --> 00:14:24.710
Only if we can terrify them
into thinking

00:14:24.710 --> 00:14:27.630
that the Bolsheviks,
that communism is nigh,

00:14:28.450 --> 00:14:29.760
that it’s right around
the corner

00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:31.760
and their property
is going to be seized—only

00:14:31.760 --> 00:14:35.730
then will they run into our arms
as their protectors."

00:14:35.730 --> 00:14:38.750
So, that’s just
this kind of politics.

00:14:38.750 --> 00:14:40.960
People only will—look at
what’s happening in Brazil,

00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:42.350
for instance.

00:14:42.350 --> 00:14:45.190
People will only embrace
the far-right extremists

00:14:45.190 --> 00:14:48.170
if they think they need
to be radically protected

00:14:48.170 --> 00:14:51.030
from left-wing extremists.

00:14:51.030 --> 00:14:53.260
So, that’s the goal,
to paint the center-left.

00:14:53.260 --> 00:14:54.600
That’s what the Nazis did.

00:14:54.600 --> 00:14:58.160
They painted the ordinary
Social Democrats as communists.

00:14:59.330 --> 00:15:00.560
AMY GOODMAN: We
had Michael Moore

00:15:00.560 --> 00:15:03.210
in recently talking about
Fahrenheit 11/9, his new film,

00:15:03.210 --> 00:15:06.050
and he does a lot of comparisons
between Hitler and Trump.

00:15:06.050 --> 00:15:07.410
But one of the things he says

00:15:07.410 --> 00:15:09.450
is he’s actually not
so interested in Trump.

00:15:09.450 --> 00:15:10.690
JASON STANLEY: Right.

00:15:10.690 --> 00:15:13.140
AMY GOODMAN: He’s interested in
the people’s response to Trump.

00:15:13.140 --> 00:15:14.360
JASON STANLEY: Right.

00:15:14.360 --> 00:15:15.720
AMY GOODMAN: He said
he’s interested

00:15:15.720 --> 00:15:17.240
in the "good Germans."
JASON STANLEY: Right.

00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.360
AMY GOODMAN: Because Hitler
couldn’t have risen to power

00:15:19.360 --> 00:15:22.450
without the "good Germans."
What does that mean?

00:15:22.450 --> 00:15:25.160
And, you know,
as we talk about all of this,

00:15:25.160 --> 00:15:28.810
how do you see
the interruption taking place?

00:15:28.810 --> 00:15:31.700
In the societies you’ve studied,

00:15:32.280 --> 00:15:36.140
how is fascism
most successfully challenged?

00:15:36.820 --> 00:15:41.360
JASON STANLEY: Fascism has to be
challenged by bringing back

00:15:41.360 --> 00:15:44.420
a culture of democracy.
Democracy is a culture.

00:15:44.420 --> 00:15:46.980
It’s a set of norms
for equal respect,

00:15:47.720 --> 00:15:49.420
for respect for the truth.

00:15:50.290 --> 00:15:55.140
And so, we have to—we have to
somehow tamp down fear.

00:15:55.830 --> 00:15:59.170
Fear and panic, xenophobia,
these are things

00:15:59.170 --> 00:16:03.090
that when people feel threatened
and anxious and atomized,

00:16:03.090 --> 00:16:07.530
they turn to powerful leaders
to protect them.

00:16:07.530 --> 00:16:09.430
We need to bring back—we need

00:16:09.430 --> 00:16:11.170
to look
at the targets of fascism.

00:16:11.170 --> 00:16:13.580
So, people forget
Martin Niemöller.

00:16:13.580 --> 00:16:15.460
In Martin Niemöller’s poem,
one of the lines

00:16:15.460 --> 00:16:17.690
is "Then they came
for the trade unionists."

00:16:18.310 --> 00:16:23.860
Labor unions. Why is it that
the Upper Midwest went red?

00:16:23.860 --> 00:16:25.820
Well, they eliminated
the trade unions.

00:16:25.820 --> 00:16:29.070
Racism spikes when
you eliminate trade unions.

00:16:29.770 --> 00:16:32.330
Fascist movements
always attack trade unions.

00:16:32.330 --> 00:16:34.240
These are
democratic organizations.

00:16:34.240 --> 00:16:38.220
We need to get people back
into democratic participation.

00:16:38.220 --> 00:16:40.430
When you—Arendt tells us,
when you atomize people

00:16:40.430 --> 00:16:42.450
and you remove them
from organizations,

00:16:42.450 --> 00:16:44.030
they become susceptible
to the idea

00:16:44.030 --> 00:16:47.180
that the only organization
they’re a member of is a race.

00:16:48.230 --> 00:16:50.800
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, you spoke
last night at The New School

00:16:50.800 --> 00:16:53.140
here in New York City
in conversation

00:16:53.140 --> 00:16:55.500
with Yale historian
Timothy Snyder

00:16:55.500 --> 00:16:57.200
and Columbia journalism
professor

00:16:57.200 --> 00:16:58.810
and New Yorker
writer Jelani Cobb.

00:16:58.810 --> 00:17:00.850
Now, Jelani Cobb emphasized

00:17:01.480 --> 00:17:04.850
that one of the principal
reasons for the rise of Trump,

00:17:04.850 --> 00:17:07.260
or fascist politics,
more generally,

00:17:07.260 --> 00:17:09.460
has to do with,
in the U.S. in particular,

00:17:09.460 --> 00:17:13.380
defunding public education.
And he thought one of the ways

00:17:13.380 --> 00:17:16.060
that one can fight
a fascist politics

00:17:16.060 --> 00:17:18.210
is by reinvesting in education.

00:17:18.210 --> 00:17:21.730
So, could you say what you think
the role of education is here,

00:17:21.730 --> 00:17:23.690
especially public education?

00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:25.520
JASON STANLEY: Public education
does two things.

00:17:25.520 --> 00:17:28.020
First, it gives us—does
at least two things.

00:17:28.020 --> 00:17:32.160
First, it gives us history.
It gives us accurate history.

00:17:32.160 --> 00:17:36.090
Fascism thrives off myth,
off grand myth.

00:17:36.090 --> 00:17:39.780
So, think of the myth making
we do about our own country.

00:17:39.780 --> 00:17:42.830
That leaves us so vulnerable
to this kind of politics.

00:17:42.830 --> 00:17:46.650
Look at how President Trump
uses the Confederacy

00:17:46.650 --> 00:17:49.880
and Robert E. Lee and myths
about the past

00:17:49.880 --> 00:17:53.710
to talk—to bolster
his narrative of a mythic past.

00:17:53.710 --> 00:17:58.110
So, by being—actual true history
gives us everyone’s perspective,

00:17:58.110 --> 00:17:59.860
not just the dominant
group perspective.

00:17:59.860 --> 00:18:01.060
So we need that.

00:18:01.060 --> 00:18:03.910
Secondly, public education
brings all of us

00:18:03.910 --> 00:18:05.890
together into
the same community.

00:18:05.890 --> 00:18:10.540
So, it brings—it makes
young people realize

00:18:10.540 --> 00:18:13.170
that they are part
of the same community

00:18:13.170 --> 00:18:15.330
as people of
a different skin color,

00:18:15.330 --> 00:18:17.480
as people of different
economic backgrounds

00:18:18.330 --> 00:18:19.750
and different religions.

00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:24.720
And so it makes you realize that
we are together as a community,

00:18:24.720 --> 00:18:26.980
and so we—it’s
much more difficult

00:18:26.980 --> 00:18:28.410
to demonize one another.

00:18:28.410 --> 00:18:30.140
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
the subtitle of your book,

00:18:30.140 --> 00:18:33.370
though,
is The Politics of Us and Them.

00:18:33.370 --> 00:18:36.210
So, in fact,
it’s the opposite of—I mean,

00:18:36.210 --> 00:18:38.460
it’s like what you’re saying is
we need to be brought together.

00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:40.050
This is the division.

00:18:40.050 --> 00:18:42.630
Explain who, in this
formulation, the "us" is.

00:18:42.630 --> 00:18:43.900
We know "them."

00:18:43.900 --> 00:18:45.150
JASON STANLEY: We know "them."

00:18:45.150 --> 00:18:46.420
Well, and "us"
in the United States,

00:18:46.420 --> 00:18:47.730
in the case
of the United States—

00:18:47.730 --> 00:18:49.020
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Yes.

00:18:49.020 --> 00:18:50.560
JASON STANLEY: —because in each
country it’s going to differ.

00:18:50.560 --> 00:18:52.050
In the case
of the United States,

00:18:52.050 --> 00:18:53.750
it’s white Christian men.

00:18:54.780 --> 00:18:58.990
And, of course, you know,
many white Christian women

00:18:59.570 --> 00:19:01.260
are going to buy into that,

00:19:01.260 --> 00:19:05.080
because patriarchy
works like that. But—

00:19:05.080 --> 00:19:06.490
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, in fact,
you make the case

00:19:06.490 --> 00:19:10.210
that patriarchy is essential
to the rise of fascist leaders.

00:19:11.350 --> 00:19:14.020
JASON STANLEY: Fascism is
unthinkable without patriarchy.

00:19:14.020 --> 00:19:15.310
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Explain.

00:19:15.310 --> 00:19:17.010
JASON STANLEY: Well, as I say
to my 3-year-old

00:19:17.880 --> 00:19:20.620
when I’m explaining
political philosophy to him,

00:19:20.620 --> 00:19:22.430
in fascism
there’s one big daddy.

00:19:23.350 --> 00:19:24.570
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Right.

00:19:24.570 --> 00:19:26.880
JASON STANLEY: So, in fascism,

00:19:26.880 --> 00:19:30.610
the patriarchal father
in patriarchy leads by strength.

00:19:31.350 --> 00:19:34.720
They protect—he protects
his women and children.

00:19:34.720 --> 00:19:37.530
So, what you do in fascism
is you make people think

00:19:37.530 --> 00:19:39.480
the patriarchal family
is under threat,

00:19:40.250 --> 00:19:42.810
so these values
of the strong man

00:19:42.810 --> 00:19:45.740
protecting their women
and children are under threat.

00:19:45.740 --> 00:19:48.750
And, of course, you know,
that’s anti-freedom,

00:19:48.750 --> 00:19:51.860
because—anti-freedom
and anti-equality,

00:19:51.860 --> 00:19:55.980
because women should have the
freedom to protect themselves

00:19:55.980 --> 00:20:01.760
and to have friendships
with anyone of any background.

00:20:01.760 --> 00:20:04.680
So what you do is you create
this fear of threat

00:20:04.680 --> 00:20:09.010
to the patriarchal family,
to patriarchal values.

00:20:10.780 --> 00:20:13.320
And then the leader
stands to the nation

00:20:13.320 --> 00:20:16.320
like the patriarchal father
stands to his family.

00:20:16.320 --> 00:20:17.960
AMY GOODMAN: So, speaking
of patriarchy,

00:20:17.960 --> 00:20:20.410
I wanted to turn to the issue
of Brett Kavanaugh.

00:20:21.340 --> 00:20:24.980
Certainly interesting from your
position as a Yale professor.

00:20:25.800 --> 00:20:28.520
He went to undergraduate
at Yale

00:20:28.520 --> 00:20:30.520
and also was
a law school professor.

00:20:31.380 --> 00:20:33.450
There are many comments
that President Trump

00:20:33.450 --> 00:20:37.750
made about Brett Kavanaugh,
now Justice Kavanaugh,

00:20:37.750 --> 00:20:39.410
but I wanted to turn
to the one

00:20:39.410 --> 00:20:41.890
where he was speaking
at the United Nations,

00:20:41.890 --> 00:20:44.480
and he held
a news conference afterwards,

00:20:44.480 --> 00:20:47.160
and he talked about,
at the time, Judge Kavanaugh.

00:20:47.890 --> 00:20:49.100
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: He’s
outstanding.

00:20:49.100 --> 00:20:51.730
You don’t find people like this.
He’s outstanding.

00:20:51.730 --> 00:20:55.290
He’s a—he’s a gem.
He’s an absolute gem.

00:20:55.990 --> 00:20:59.420
And he’s been treated
very unfairly by the Democrats,

00:20:59.420 --> 00:21:01.560
who are playing a con game.

00:21:01.560 --> 00:21:04.800
AMY GOODMAN: Just a con game
around Brett Kavanaugh.

00:21:04.800 --> 00:21:08.140
I mean, there was so much
activism all over the country,

00:21:08.140 --> 00:21:10.710
particularly at your university,
at Yale,

00:21:11.700 --> 00:21:15.640
where, what, over a thousand
students—maybe

00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:18.390
it was 2,000 students—spoke
out on this issue,

00:21:18.390 --> 00:21:21.530
and there were protests.
Your thoughts on what took place

00:21:21.530 --> 00:21:24.070
and what is the lesson
learned here?

00:21:24.070 --> 00:21:26.200
For many, they believe

00:21:26.200 --> 00:21:29.770
that after Christine
Blasey Ford testified,

00:21:29.770 --> 00:21:32.680
that Kavanaugh
didn’t have a chance.

00:21:32.680 --> 00:21:36.120
But Trump and Kavanaugh
pulled it out.

00:21:36.120 --> 00:21:37.490
JASON STANLEY: Yeah.

00:21:37.490 --> 00:21:41.550
I mean, what can—so, I think
that Yale—just about Yale,

00:21:41.550 --> 00:21:44.210
I think it’s very engaged
in the country’s problems,

00:21:44.210 --> 00:21:48.480
and our students
led this discussion,

00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:52.530
but—at Yale.
But about Justice Kavanaugh,

00:21:52.530 --> 00:21:54.320
what concerned me—one
of the things

00:21:54.320 --> 00:21:56.590
that concerned me
very deeply was,

00:21:56.590 --> 00:21:58.630
during his confirmation hearing,

00:21:59.240 --> 00:22:02.620
the way he countered it
was by targeting leftists,

00:22:02.620 --> 00:22:04.320
by saying it was a conspiracy.

00:22:05.950 --> 00:22:09.390
I mean, he essentially said
it’s a conspiracy of leftists.

00:22:09.390 --> 00:22:11.480
We haven’t heard
that kind of talk,

00:22:11.480 --> 00:22:14.870
that kind of like explicit
targeting of leftists

00:22:14.870 --> 00:22:18.320
as leftists, from a justice
of the Supreme Court,

00:22:18.320 --> 00:22:20.610
that kind of
extreme partisanship.

00:22:21.150 --> 00:22:22.520
So—

00:22:22.520 --> 00:22:24.170
AMY GOODMAN: That caused John
Paul Stevens—I mean,

00:22:24.170 --> 00:22:25.390
this hasn’t happened
before,

00:22:25.390 --> 00:22:28.540
either—a former Supreme Court
justice, to say,

00:22:28.540 --> 00:22:30.280
"I supported Kavanaugh
at the beginning,

00:22:30.280 --> 00:22:31.870
even if I disagreed with him.

00:22:31.870 --> 00:22:34.100
But now I cannot countenance
the idea

00:22:34.100 --> 00:22:36.410
that he will be
on the Supreme Court."

00:22:36.410 --> 00:22:39.370
JASON STANLEY: Feminists,
leftists, the opponents,

00:22:39.370 --> 00:22:42.250
racial minorities,
sexual minorities,

00:22:42.250 --> 00:22:46.370
the trade unionists—these are
the enemies of fascist politics.

00:22:46.370 --> 00:22:51.370
And what we’re seeing
is those by—Justice Kavanaugh,

00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:54.680
in that confirmation hearing,
deeply worried me

00:22:56.340 --> 00:23:00.560
by saying things that I never
expected to hear in public

00:23:00.560 --> 00:23:01.830
in that circumstance.

00:23:01.830 --> 00:23:03.200
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted
to bring together

00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:04.600
the issue of immigrants,

00:23:04.600 --> 00:23:06.550
and where immigrants
come into this story,

00:23:06.550 --> 00:23:10.370
and patriarchy, because you had
Judge Brett Kavanaugh,

00:23:10.370 --> 00:23:12.500
on the federal appeals
court in D.C.,

00:23:12.500 --> 00:23:15.860
weighing in, in a way
he didn’t have to, forcefully,

00:23:15.860 --> 00:23:18.500
but he wrote the dissent
around a case

00:23:18.500 --> 00:23:20.650
of a young immigrant teenager

00:23:21.320 --> 00:23:26.320
who was in a shelter in Texas
who wanted to have an abortion,

00:23:26.320 --> 00:23:29.850
and he tried to prevent her
from having an abortion,

00:23:30.510 --> 00:23:32.340
to the great consternation

00:23:32.340 --> 00:23:36.400
of so many—both the issue
of being an immigrant

00:23:36.400 --> 00:23:40.090
and also being a young woman
around the issue of abortion.

00:23:40.090 --> 00:23:44.550
And I wanted to take this back
even further to Donald Trump,

00:23:44.550 --> 00:23:46.000
not President Trump,

00:23:46.000 --> 00:23:48.680
when he first announced
for president

00:23:48.680 --> 00:23:51.180
in those extremely
controversial remarks

00:23:51.180 --> 00:23:54.270
he made in the lead-up
to the 2016 election.

00:23:54.270 --> 00:23:57.410
In his kickoff speech
after announcing his bid

00:23:57.410 --> 00:24:00.570
for the presidential nomination,
Trump moved right in,

00:24:00.570 --> 00:24:03.850
talking about Mexicans
as criminals and rapists.

00:24:03.850 --> 00:24:06.160
DONALD TRUMP: When Mexico sends
its people,

00:24:06.160 --> 00:24:08.320
they’re not sending their best.

00:24:08.320 --> 00:24:10.820
They’re not sending you.
They’re not sending you.

00:24:11.800 --> 00:24:15.560
They’re sending people
that have lots of problems,

00:24:15.560 --> 00:24:17.760
and they’re bringing
those problems with us.

00:24:19.210 --> 00:24:22.220
They’re bringing drugs.
They’re bringing crime.

00:24:22.220 --> 00:24:23.540
They’re rapists.

00:24:23.540 --> 00:24:26.340
And some, I assume,
are good people.

00:24:26.340 --> 00:24:28.200
AMY GOODMAN: "Some," he said,
"I assume, are good people."

00:24:28.200 --> 00:24:31.550
But he talked about the Mexican
rapists, from the beginning.

00:24:32.610 --> 00:24:34.310
JASON STANLEY: So, right.

00:24:35.970 --> 00:24:39.120
It’s always the case
that—in this politics,

00:24:39.120 --> 00:24:42.730
that the out-group—that
the out-group are,

00:24:42.730 --> 00:24:44.610
in particular, rapists:

00:24:44.610 --> 00:24:46.670
They pose a threat
to your women.

00:24:46.670 --> 00:24:50.970
So the values of fascism
are patriarchy—men

00:24:50.970 --> 00:24:53.050
have to protect
their women and children.

00:24:53.050 --> 00:24:55.070
So you present the out-group
as threats

00:24:55.070 --> 00:24:56.580
to the women and children.

00:24:56.580 --> 00:25:01.040
And rape or sexual assault
is not something

00:25:01.040 --> 00:25:04.370
that—it’s only something
that can be done to your women.

00:25:05.370 --> 00:25:08.540
It can’t be done to—if you think
about, for instance,

00:25:08.540 --> 00:25:13.500
what happened in Myanmar
with the Rohingya,

00:25:13.500 --> 00:25:16.910
the Rohingya were presented
as rapists.

00:25:17.650 --> 00:25:20.920
And then the backlash
against them

00:25:20.920 --> 00:25:23.450
was horrific mass rape
and genocide.

00:25:25.070 --> 00:25:27.960
So, that’s acceptable
against the out-group.

00:25:29.010 --> 00:25:32.140
So, rape is this threat
to our women,

00:25:32.650 --> 00:25:34.720
and it’s perpetrated
by their men.

00:25:35.930 --> 00:25:38.380
And it’s not something
you can do to their women.

00:25:38.990 --> 00:25:41.040
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, you know,
a lot of people thought

00:25:41.040 --> 00:25:43.470
that the comments
that Trump made,

00:25:43.470 --> 00:25:44.990
especially about,
I mean, Mexicans,

00:25:44.990 --> 00:25:47.530
it’s a really
extraordinary claim

00:25:47.530 --> 00:25:51.180
to make about Mexican migrants
coming to the U.S.

00:25:51.180 --> 00:25:54.470
But rather than denouncing them
or disowning them

00:25:54.470 --> 00:25:56.360
once he became president,

00:25:56.360 --> 00:25:59.300
earlier this year
he returned to those comments,

00:25:59.300 --> 00:26:02.670
claiming he had been vindicated
by reports of sexual violence

00:26:02.670 --> 00:26:04.990
against migrant women
making the journey

00:26:04.990 --> 00:26:06.790
from Central America
to the U.S.

00:26:07.690 --> 00:26:09.480
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: And
remember my opening remarks

00:26:09.480 --> 00:26:11.500
at Trump Tower,
when I opened, everybody said,

00:26:11.500 --> 00:26:15.610
"Oh, he was so tough,"
and I used the word "rape."

00:26:16.530 --> 00:26:20.160
And yesterday it came out where,
this journey coming up,

00:26:20.900 --> 00:26:24.100
women are raped at levels that
nobody has ever seen before.

00:26:24.900 --> 00:26:26.600
They don’t want to mention that.

00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:29.130
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So, Jason,
your remarks, your comments?

00:26:29.130 --> 00:26:30.410
JASON STANLEY: Right. Again,

00:26:30.410 --> 00:26:32.420
rape is one of the most
horrific crimes

00:26:32.420 --> 00:26:34.200
any human being can perpetrate.

00:26:34.200 --> 00:26:37.860
So you link your—you link
the out-group to that crime.

00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.780
In Austria, the minister
of the interior

00:26:41.780 --> 00:26:44.740
or one of the main government
ministers—just recently,

00:26:44.740 --> 00:26:48.340
it was a scandal—he went around
to police stations, and he said,

00:26:48.340 --> 00:26:53.090
"Make sure to make clear
any case where a foreigner

00:26:53.090 --> 00:26:57.760
is raping an Austrian woman.
And we will highlight that."

00:26:57.760 --> 00:27:03.320
So, what you do is you link
the out-group men to rape.

00:27:03.320 --> 00:27:05.870
You present them
as these mortal threats.

00:27:05.870 --> 00:27:08.090
And then you make people
feel like

00:27:08.090 --> 00:27:10.390
they’re not protecting
their own women.

00:27:10.390 --> 00:27:14.730
So, this is Hitler—one
of Hitler’s first forays

00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:17.340
into politics
was raising panic,

00:27:17.340 --> 00:27:18.930
as I discuss in
How Fascism Works,

00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:20.270
about what
he called—what was called

00:27:20.270 --> 00:27:22.970
the "black horror
on the Rhine"—black

00:27:22.970 --> 00:27:26.720
Senegalese soldiers
occupying Germany in the 1920s

00:27:26.720 --> 00:27:28.990
and supposedly
"raping" white women.

00:27:28.990 --> 00:27:30.720
If you think about
our own history,

00:27:30.720 --> 00:27:33.370
what Angela Davis calls the myth
of the black rapist,

00:27:34.990 --> 00:27:40.370
lynching was based on this
long fake history of rape.

00:27:40.370 --> 00:27:45.180
So, it’s always rape
causes—it causes horror

00:27:45.180 --> 00:27:46.790
against the out-group,

00:27:46.790 --> 00:27:50.770
and it causes men
in the in-group to feel like

00:27:51.300 --> 00:27:53.980
they’re failing at protecting
their women—"their

00:27:53.980 --> 00:27:57.000
women"—and then they need
a strong leader to protect them.

00:27:57.000 --> 00:27:58.470
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, I want to
go back to what you said,

00:27:58.470 --> 00:28:03.020
you suggested earlier,
as ways to fight this fascism.

00:28:03.020 --> 00:28:06.200
Many people have suggested
that what needs to be done

00:28:06.200 --> 00:28:10.220
is to get more and more people
to vote in the midterms.

00:28:10.220 --> 00:28:12.930
What role do you think—I mean,
is that sufficient,

00:28:12.930 --> 00:28:14.500
given earlier you said
that in fact

00:28:14.500 --> 00:28:16.450
there’s a one-party system
in the U.S.?

00:28:17.020 --> 00:28:20.100
What role does voting play,
if any at all,

00:28:20.100 --> 00:28:22.180
in combating fascist politics?

00:28:22.180 --> 00:28:24.390
JASON STANLEY: Well, voting
would work,

00:28:24.390 --> 00:28:28.990
but fascism works
by suppressing the vote,

00:28:28.990 --> 00:28:31.770
by gerrymandering
and voter suppression.

00:28:31.770 --> 00:28:33.270
And if you look at our country,

00:28:33.270 --> 00:28:37.440
unique among democracies
in felon disenfranchisement.

00:28:37.440 --> 00:28:39.840
I mean, we would not have
the government we had

00:28:39.840 --> 00:28:43.210
if people convicted of felonies
were allowed to vote.

00:28:43.210 --> 00:28:44.480
So—

00:28:44.480 --> 00:28:46.450
AMY GOODMAN: You have a
referendum right now in Florida,

00:28:46.450 --> 00:28:50.580
where 1.4 million people would
immediately be able to vote,

00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:54.020
if in fact people
who had served time in prison

00:28:54.020 --> 00:28:55.790
were able to vote
once they came out.

00:28:55.790 --> 00:28:57.010
JASON STANLEY: In
most democracies,

00:28:57.010 --> 00:28:59.220
people in prison can vote.
So—

00:28:59.220 --> 00:29:00.680
AMY GOODMAN: Even in a few
states in the United States,

00:29:00.680 --> 00:29:01.920
like Vermont and Maine.

00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:05.430
JASON STANLEY: Right, right.
So—which are very white states.

00:29:06.170 --> 00:29:10.800
And so, yes.
So, you need to vote.

00:29:10.800 --> 00:29:12.780
On the other hand,
the Republican aim,

00:29:12.780 --> 00:29:15.230
I fear, is
to make voting irrelevant,

00:29:16.040 --> 00:29:18.480
because when you stack
the Supreme Court

00:29:18.480 --> 00:29:19.960
with hyperpartisans,

00:29:19.960 --> 00:29:23.850
then you have essentially
a super-legislative body

00:29:23.850 --> 00:29:28.700
that can simply invalidate,
as we’ve seen before,

00:29:28.700 --> 00:29:31.380
any majority legislative will.

00:29:31.380 --> 00:29:36.140
And so, by making that the case,
by suppressing votes,

00:29:36.140 --> 00:29:37.840
by stacking the courts,

00:29:38.360 --> 00:29:41.540
you are making voting less
and less relevant,

00:29:41.540 --> 00:29:43.840
as we go further
towards an electorate

00:29:43.840 --> 00:29:46.090
that is inevitably going
to tend more progressive.

00:29:46.090 --> 00:29:47.480
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stanley,

00:29:47.480 --> 00:29:49.529
what most surprised you
in your research?

00:29:50.170 --> 00:29:52.680
JASON STANLEY: What most
surprised me in my research

00:29:52.680 --> 00:29:56.900
was the universality of the
themes that we regularly see.

00:29:56.900 --> 00:29:59.060
For example, you know,

00:29:59.960 --> 00:30:02.560
I discovered that
chapter 2 of Mein Kampf

00:30:02.560 --> 00:30:05.050
is about Hitler’s time
in Vienna,

00:30:05.050 --> 00:30:08.230
and he talks about
going to Vienna and Jews, Jews

00:30:08.230 --> 00:30:10.180
and more Jews
in the cities.

00:30:10.920 --> 00:30:13.780
The hated out-group
is always in the cities.

00:30:13.780 --> 00:30:16.120
And in my own country,
the expression "inner city,"

00:30:16.120 --> 00:30:18.890
in fact, means the place
where black Americans live.

00:30:20.570 --> 00:30:23.020
How the out-group
is always lazy.

00:30:23.020 --> 00:30:26.640
Jews were supposed to be
lazy and criminals.

00:30:26.640 --> 00:30:30.500
It’s always the same tropes,
again and again and again.

00:30:30.500 --> 00:30:32.210
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But how do you
respond—before we conclude,

00:30:32.210 --> 00:30:34.030
how do you respond
to the criticism

00:30:34.030 --> 00:30:36.530
that by talking about fascism
in the U.S.,

00:30:37.050 --> 00:30:39.720
you risk leveling
all the distinctions

00:30:39.720 --> 00:30:43.180
between different fascists—you
talked earlier about Mussolini

00:30:43.180 --> 00:30:47.410
and Hitler—so that then
the term has no content?

00:30:47.410 --> 00:30:49.250
JASON STANLEY: I’m much
more worried

00:30:49.250 --> 00:30:50.870
about—I’m much more worried

00:30:50.870 --> 00:30:53.400
about normalization
than overreach.

00:30:53.400 --> 00:30:55.140
Which is the concern now?

00:30:55.140 --> 00:30:57.189
That we don’t see it
when it’s happening,

00:30:57.750 --> 00:31:02.650
or that we call something—we’re
a little bit more extreme

00:31:02.650 --> 00:31:03.940
in what we call things?

00:31:03.940 --> 00:31:07.780
I am much more concerned
that we don’t label something

00:31:07.780 --> 00:31:13.520
as it should be labeled
than that we sort of cry wolf.

00:31:13.520 --> 00:31:15.810
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank
you so much, Jason Stanley,

00:31:15.810 --> 00:31:18.720
for joining us, philosophy
professor at Yale University.

00:31:18.720 --> 00:31:20.500
His new book is just out.

00:31:20.500 --> 00:31:24.440
It’s titled How Fascism Works:
The Politics of Us and Them,

00:31:24.440 --> 00:31:27.130
previously wrote
How Propaganda Works.

00:31:27.130 --> 00:31:28.410
This is Democracy Now!

00:31:28.410 --> 00:31:30.270
I’m Amy Goodman,
with Nermeen Shaikh.

00:31:30.270 --> 00:31:34.320
To see Part 1 of our discussion,
go to democracynow.org.