WEBVTT 00:13:38.780 --> 00:18:47.960 AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, 00:19:05.880 --> 00:19:07.580 The 00:19:54.620 --> 00:19:57.540 War and Peace Report, The Quarantine Report. 00:19:57.540 --> 00:19:58.930 I’m Amy Goodman. 00:19:58.930 --> 00:20:02.010 As the nationwide uprising against police brutality 00:20:02.010 --> 00:20:06.180 and racism continues to roil the nation and the world, 00:20:06.180 --> 00:20:08.080 bringing down Confederate statues 00:20:08.080 --> 00:20:10.920 and forcing a reckoning in city halls 00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:12.240 and on the streets, 00:20:12.240 --> 00:20:15.070 President Trump defended law enforcement Thursday, 00:20:15.070 --> 00:20:18.600 dismissing growing calls to defund the police. 00:20:18.600 --> 00:20:21.040 He spoke at a campaign-style event 00:20:21.040 --> 00:20:23.010 at a church in Dallas, Texas, 00:20:23.010 --> 00:20:26.100 announcing a new executive order advising police departments 00:20:26.100 --> 00:20:28.760 to adopt national standards for use of force. 00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:31.590 Trump did not invite the top 00:20:31.590 --> 00:20:34.330 three law enforcement officials in Dallas, 00:20:34.330 --> 00:20:36.280 who are all African American. 00:20:36.810 --> 00:20:40.410 The move comes after Trump called protesters "THUGS" 00:20:40.410 --> 00:20:43.220 and threatened to deploy the U.S. military to end, 00:20:43.220 --> 00:20:47.340 quote, "riots and lawlessness." This is Trump speaking Thursday. 00:20:48.240 --> 00:20:49.440 PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: They want to get rid 00:20:49.440 --> 00:20:50.660 of the police forces. 00:20:50.660 --> 00:20:52.060 They actually want to get rid of it. 00:20:52.060 --> 00:20:54.659 And that’s what they do, and that’s where they’d go. 00:20:55.250 --> 00:20:58.820 And you know that, because at the top position, 00:20:59.450 --> 00:21:00.860 there’s not going to be much leadership. 00:21:00.860 --> 00:21:02.980 There’s not much leadership left. 00:21:02.980 --> 00:21:05.000 Instead, we have to go the opposite way. 00:21:05.000 --> 00:21:08.630 We must invest more energy and resources in police training 00:21:09.520 --> 00:21:11.850 and recruiting and community engagement. 00:21:11.850 --> 00:21:13.200 We have to respect our police. 00:21:13.200 --> 00:21:14.440 We have to take care of our police. 00:21:14.440 --> 00:21:15.660 They’re protecting us. 00:21:15.660 --> 00:21:17.350 And if they’re allowed to do their job, 00:21:17.350 --> 00:21:18.550 they’ll do a great job. 00:21:18.550 --> 00:21:21.550 And you always have a bad apple no matter where you go. 00:21:21.550 --> 00:21:22.910 You have bad apples. 00:21:22.910 --> 00:21:24.460 And there are not too many of them. 00:21:24.460 --> 00:21:26.110 And I can tell you there are not too many of them 00:21:26.110 --> 00:21:27.370 in the police department. 00:21:27.370 --> 00:21:29.770 We all know a lot of members of the police. 00:21:29.770 --> 00:21:32.740 AMY GOODMAN: Democratic presidential nominee Joe Biden 00:21:32.740 --> 00:21:36.480 is also calling for an increase to police funding. 00:21:36.480 --> 00:21:39.190 In an op-ed in USA Today, he called for police departments 00:21:39.190 --> 00:21:42.040 to receive an additional $300 million to, quote, 00:21:42.040 --> 00:21:44.810 "reinvigorate community policing in our country." 00:21:44.810 --> 00:21:46.030 On Wednesday night, 00:21:46.030 --> 00:21:48.940 Biden discussed police funding on The Daily Show. 00:21:50.180 --> 00:21:51.900 JOE BIDEN: I don’t believe police should be defunded, 00:21:51.900 --> 00:21:55.460 but I think the conditions should be placed upon them 00:21:55.460 --> 00:21:58.990 where departments are having to take significant reforms 00:21:58.990 --> 00:22:00.210 relating to that. 00:22:00.210 --> 00:22:02.710 We should set up a national use-of-force standard. 00:22:04.140 --> 00:22:06.890 AMY GOODMAN: But many argue reform will not fix 00:22:06.890 --> 00:22:09.480 the inherently racist system of policing. 00:22:09.480 --> 00:22:12.350 Since the global protest movement began, 00:22:12.350 --> 00:22:16.370 Minneapolis has pledged to dismantle its police department, 00:22:16.370 --> 00:22:18.640 the mayors of Los Angeles and New York City 00:22:18.640 --> 00:22:21.700 have promised to slash police department budgets, 00:22:21.700 --> 00:22:24.650 and calls to "defund the police" are being heard in spaces 00:22:24.650 --> 00:22:28.170 that would have been unthinkable just a few weeks ago. 00:22:28.900 --> 00:22:31.690 Well, for more on this historic moment, 00:22:31.690 --> 00:22:34.440 we are spending the hour with the legendary activist 00:22:34.440 --> 00:22:37.470 and scholar Angela Davis, professor emerita 00:22:37.470 --> 00:22:40.080 at the University of California, Santa Cruz. 00:22:40.080 --> 00:22:42.210 For half a century, Angela Davis has been 00:22:42.210 --> 00:22:44.440 one of the most influential activists 00:22:44.440 --> 00:22:46.300 and intellectuals in the United States, 00:22:46.300 --> 00:22:48.960 an icon of the Black liberation movement. 00:22:48.960 --> 00:22:52.130 Angela Davis’s work around issues of gender, race, 00:22:52.130 --> 00:22:55.510 class and prisons has influenced critical thought 00:22:55.510 --> 00:22:59.170 and social movements across several generations. 00:22:59.170 --> 00:23:02.270 She’s a leading advocate for prison abolition, 00:23:02.270 --> 00:23:04.760 a position informed by her own experience 00:23:04.760 --> 00:23:07.670 as a prisoner and a fugitive on the FBI’s 00:23:07.670 --> 00:23:11.070 top 10 wanted list more than 40 years ago. 00:23:11.070 --> 00:23:14.680 Once caught, she faced the death penalty in California. 00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:17.260 After being acquitted on all charges, 00:23:17.260 --> 00:23:19.820 she’s spent her life fighting to change 00:23:19.820 --> 00:23:21.890 the criminal justice system. 00:23:21.890 --> 00:23:24.480 Angela Davis, welcome back to Democracy Now! 00:23:24.480 --> 00:23:26.980 It’s great to have you with us today for the hour. 00:23:28.050 --> 00:23:29.570 ANGELA DAVIS: Thank you very much, Amy. 00:23:29.570 --> 00:23:31.090 It’s wonderful to be here. 00:23:31.090 --> 00:23:37.850 AMY GOODMAN: Well, do you think this moment is a tipping point, 00:23:37.850 --> 00:23:39.500 a turning point? 00:23:39.500 --> 00:23:41.880 You, who have been involved in activism 00:23:41.880 --> 00:23:44.530 for almost half a century, 00:23:44.530 --> 00:23:46.770 do you see this moment as different, 00:23:46.770 --> 00:23:50.060 perhaps more different than any period of time 00:23:50.060 --> 00:23:51.760 you have lived through? 00:23:52.930 --> 00:23:56.780 ANGELA DAVIS: Absolutely. This is an extraordinary moment. 00:23:56.780 --> 00:24:01.120 I have never experienced anything like the conditions 00:24:01.120 --> 00:24:03.530 we are currently experiencing, 00:24:04.200 --> 00:24:09.950 the conjuncture created by the COVID-19 pandemic 00:24:09.950 --> 00:24:13.360 and the recognition of the systemic racism 00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:19.570 that has been rendered visible under these conditions 00:24:19.570 --> 00:24:21.500 because of the disproportionate deaths 00:24:21.500 --> 00:24:23.460 in Black and Latinx communities. 00:24:24.520 --> 00:24:25.950 And this is a moment I don’t know 00:24:25.950 --> 00:24:28.760 whether I ever expected to experience. 00:24:29.630 --> 00:24:32.930 When the protests began, of course, 00:24:32.930 --> 00:24:36.100 around the murder of George Floyd and Breonna Taylor 00:24:36.100 --> 00:24:39.270 and Ahmaud Arbery and Tony McDade 00:24:39.270 --> 00:24:41.090 and many others who have lost their lives 00:24:41.090 --> 00:24:44.340 to racist state violence and vigilante violence — 00:24:45.680 --> 00:24:48.530 when these protests erupted, I remembered something 00:24:48.530 --> 00:24:54.130 that I’ve said many times to encourage activists, 00:24:54.130 --> 00:24:57.520 who often feel that the work that they do 00:24:57.520 --> 00:25:00.230 is not leading to tangible results. 00:25:01.240 --> 00:25:02.640 I often ask them to consider 00:25:02.640 --> 00:25:05.490 the very long trajectory of Black struggles. 00:25:06.220 --> 00:25:10.020 And what has been most important is the forging of legacies, 00:25:10.020 --> 00:25:11.630 the new arenas of struggle 00:25:11.630 --> 00:25:14.630 that can be handed down to younger generations. 00:25:14.630 --> 00:25:20.150 But I’ve often said one never knows 00:25:20.150 --> 00:25:24.110 when conditions may give rise to a conjuncture 00:25:24.110 --> 00:25:25.700 such as the current 00:25:25.700 --> 00:25:30.300 one that rapidly shifts popular consciousness 00:25:30.300 --> 00:25:33.340 and suddenly allows us to move 00:25:33.340 --> 00:25:35.950 in the direction of radical change. 00:25:36.470 --> 00:25:40.900 If one does not engage in the ongoing work 00:25:40.900 --> 00:25:43.710 when such a moment arises, 00:25:43.710 --> 00:25:49.020 we cannot take advantage of the opportunities to change. 00:25:49.830 --> 00:25:51.600 And, of course, this moment will pass. 00:25:51.600 --> 00:25:54.120 The intensity of the current demonstrations 00:25:54.660 --> 00:25:56.920 cannot be sustained over time, 00:25:57.680 --> 00:26:01.360 but we will have to be ready to shift gears and address 00:26:01.360 --> 00:26:03.320 these issues in different arenas, 00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:05.980 including, of course, the electoral arena. 00:26:07.340 --> 00:26:10.920 AMY GOODMAN: Angela Davis, you have long been a leader 00:26:10.920 --> 00:26:13.090 of the critical resistance movement, 00:26:13.790 --> 00:26:15.800 the abolition movement. 00:26:15.800 --> 00:26:18.800 And I’m wondering if you can explain the demand, 00:26:18.800 --> 00:26:21.770 as you see it, what you feel needs to be done, 00:26:21.770 --> 00:26:24.520 around defunding the police, 00:26:24.520 --> 00:26:26.610 and then around prison abolition. 00:26:28.830 --> 00:26:32.790 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, the call to defund the police is, 00:26:32.790 --> 00:26:35.710 I think, an abolitionist demand, 00:26:35.710 --> 00:26:40.740 but it reflects only one aspect of the process 00:26:40.740 --> 00:26:43.420 represented by the demand. 00:26:44.960 --> 00:26:49.300 Defunding the police is not simply about withdrawing funding 00:26:49.300 --> 00:26:53.070 for law enforcement and doing nothing else. 00:26:53.070 --> 00:26:59.240 And it appears as if this is the rather superficial understanding 00:26:59.830 --> 00:27:04.120 that has caused Biden to move in the direction he’s moving in. 00:27:04.670 --> 00:27:09.240 It’s about shifting public funds to new services 00:27:09.890 --> 00:27:14.390 and new institutions — mental health counselors, 00:27:14.390 --> 00:27:20.880 who can respond to people who are in crisis without arms. 00:27:20.880 --> 00:27:24.200 It’s about shifting funding to education, 00:27:24.200 --> 00:27:26.290 to housing, to recreation. 00:27:27.370 --> 00:27:31.760 All of these things help to create security and safety. 00:27:33.120 --> 00:27:38.920 It’s about learning that safety, safeguarded by violence, 00:27:38.920 --> 00:27:41.400 is not really safety. 00:27:41.920 --> 00:27:43.500 And I would say that abolition 00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:47.310 is not primarily a negative strategy. 00:27:47.310 --> 00:27:51.440 It’s not primarily about dismantling, getting rid of, 00:27:51.990 --> 00:27:56.370 but it’s about reenvisioning. It’s about building anew. 00:27:57.330 --> 00:28:02.650 And I would argue that abolition is a feminist strategy. 00:28:03.420 --> 00:28:06.590 And one sees in these abolitionist demands 00:28:06.590 --> 00:28:11.210 that are emerging the pivotal influence 00:28:11.730 --> 00:28:15.000 of feminist theories and practices. 00:28:15.000 --> 00:28:16.700 AMY GOODMAN: Explain that further. 00:28:19.490 --> 00:28:22.650 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, I want us to see feminism 00:28:22.650 --> 00:28:28.150 not only as addressing issues of gender, 00:28:28.150 --> 00:28:33.970 but rather as a methodological approach of understanding 00:28:33.970 --> 00:28:40.510 the intersectionality of struggles and issues. 00:28:42.730 --> 00:28:47.080 Abolition feminism counters carceral feminism, 00:28:47.080 --> 00:28:51.080 which has unfortunately assumed that issues 00:28:51.080 --> 00:28:54.200 such as violence against women 00:28:54.200 --> 00:29:00.590 can be effectively addressed by using police force, 00:29:03.360 --> 00:29:06.180 by using imprisonment as a solution. 00:29:06.180 --> 00:29:11.580 And of course we know that Joseph Biden, in 1994, 00:29:12.150 --> 00:29:17.160 who claims that the Violence Against Women Act 00:29:17.160 --> 00:29:21.040 was such an important moment in his career — 00:29:21.980 --> 00:29:27.700 the Violence Against Women Act was couched within the 1994 00:29:28.850 --> 00:29:32.320 Crime Act, the Clinton Crime Act. 00:29:33.780 --> 00:29:37.110 And what we’re calling for 00:29:37.110 --> 00:29:40.410 is a process of decriminalization, 00:29:40.410 --> 00:29:46.630 not — recognizing that threats to safety, 00:29:47.170 --> 00:29:49.070 threats to security, 00:29:49.070 --> 00:29:54.660 come not primarily from what is defined as crime, 00:29:54.660 --> 00:30:01.070 but rather from the failure of institutions in our country 00:30:01.070 --> 00:30:03.840 to address issues of health, 00:30:03.840 --> 00:30:07.990 issues of violence, education, etc. 00:30:07.990 --> 00:30:13.310 So, abolition is really about rethinking the kind of future 00:30:13.310 --> 00:30:14.900 we want, the social future, 00:30:14.900 --> 00:30:18.000 the economic future, the political future. 00:30:18.670 --> 00:30:20.830 It’s about revolution, I would argue. 00:30:22.030 --> 00:30:23.860 AMY GOODMAN: You write in Freedom 00:30:23.860 --> 00:30:25.710 Is a Constant Struggle, 00:30:25.710 --> 00:30:29.460 "Neoliberal ideology drives us to focus on individuals, 00:30:29.460 --> 00:30:32.980 ourselves, individual victims, individual perpetrators. 00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:34.710 But how is it possible to solve 00:30:34.710 --> 00:30:37.700 the massive problem of racist state violence 00:30:37.700 --> 00:30:40.040 by calling upon individual police officers 00:30:40.040 --> 00:30:41.630 to bear the burden of that history 00:30:41.630 --> 00:30:43.900 and to assume that by prosecuting them, 00:30:43.900 --> 00:30:45.910 by exacting our revenge on them, 00:30:45.910 --> 00:30:50.030 we would have somehow made progress in eradicating racism?" 00:30:50.030 --> 00:30:52.330 So, explain what exactly you’re demanding. 00:30:54.300 --> 00:30:56.920 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, neoliberal logic assumes 00:30:56.920 --> 00:31:00.700 that the fundamental unit of society is the individual, 00:31:01.250 --> 00:31:03.350 and I would say the abstract individual. 00:31:04.660 --> 00:31:08.110 According to that logic, Black people can combat racism 00:31:08.110 --> 00:31:11.770 by pulling themselves up by their own individual bootstraps. 00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:17.270 That logic recognizes — or fails, 00:31:17.270 --> 00:31:21.460 rather, to recognize that there are institutional barriers 00:31:21.460 --> 00:31:27.090 that cannot be brought down by individual determination. 00:31:27.090 --> 00:31:32.040 If a Black person is materially unable to attend the university, 00:31:32.040 --> 00:31:35.590 the solution is not affirmative action, they argue, 00:31:35.590 --> 00:31:38.770 but rather the person simply needs to work harder, 00:31:38.770 --> 00:31:41.050 get good grades and do what is necessary 00:31:41.050 --> 00:31:44.730 in order to acquire the funds to pay for tuition. 00:31:44.730 --> 00:31:48.140 Neoliberal logic deters us from thinking 00:31:48.140 --> 00:31:52.140 about the simpler solution, which is free education. 00:31:52.900 --> 00:31:58.560 I’m thinking about the fact that we have been aware of the need 00:31:58.560 --> 00:32:03.420 for these institutional strategies at least since 1935 — 00:32:03.420 --> 00:32:05.990 but of course before, but I’m choosing 1935 00:32:05.990 --> 00:32:08.750 because that was the year when W.E.B. Du Bois 00:32:08.750 --> 00:32:13.270 published his germinal Black Reconstruction in America. 00:32:14.380 --> 00:32:17.720 And the question was not what should individual 00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:23.690 Black people do, but rather how to reorganize and restructure 00:32:23.690 --> 00:32:29.960 post-slavery society in order to guarantee the incorporation 00:32:29.960 --> 00:32:33.310 of those who had been formerly enslaved. 00:32:33.940 --> 00:32:37.240 The society could not remain the same — 00:32:38.190 --> 00:32:40.590 or should not have remained the same. 00:32:40.590 --> 00:32:44.750 Neoliberalism resists change at the individual level. 00:32:44.750 --> 00:32:50.110 It asks the individual to adapt to conditions of capitalism, 00:32:50.110 --> 00:32:51.810 to conditions of racism. 00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:55.720 AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you, Angela Davis, 00:32:55.720 --> 00:33:00.360 about the monuments to racists, colonizers, Confederates, 00:33:00.360 --> 00:33:03.290 that are continuing to fall across the United States 00:33:03.290 --> 00:33:04.900 and around the world. 00:33:04.900 --> 00:33:07.060 In St. Paul, Minnesota, Wednesday, 00:33:07.060 --> 00:33:09.070 activists with the American Indian Movement 00:33:09.070 --> 00:33:11.560 tied a rope around a statue of Christopher Columbus 00:33:11.560 --> 00:33:15.070 and pulled it from its pedestal on the state Capitol grounds. 00:33:15.070 --> 00:33:17.260 The AIM members then held a ceremony 00:33:17.260 --> 00:33:18.960 over the fallen monument. 00:33:21.830 --> 00:33:25.470 In Massachusetts, officials said they’ll remove a Columbus statue 00:33:25.470 --> 00:33:27.000 from a park in Boston’s North End, 00:33:27.000 --> 00:33:28.240 after it was beheaded 00:33:28.240 --> 00:33:30.730 by protesters early Wednesday morning. 00:33:30.730 --> 00:33:34.520 In Richmond, Virginia, protesters toppled a statue 00:33:34.520 --> 00:33:36.810 of Confederate President Jefferson Davis 00:33:36.810 --> 00:33:38.970 from Monument Avenue Wednesday night. 00:33:38.970 --> 00:33:40.750 In the nearby city of Portsmouth, 00:33:40.750 --> 00:33:42.990 protesters used sledgehammers 00:33:42.990 --> 00:33:46.590 to destroy a monument to Confederate soldiers. 00:33:46.590 --> 00:33:48.500 One person sustained a serious injury, 00:33:48.500 --> 00:33:51.290 was hospitalized after a statue fell on his head. 00:33:51.290 --> 00:33:54.630 In Washington, D.C., House Speaker Nancy Pelosi 00:33:54.630 --> 00:33:57.490 joined other lawmakers demanding the removal 00:33:57.490 --> 00:33:59.310 of 11 Confederate statues 00:33:59.310 --> 00:34:02.480 from the National Statuary Hall in the Capitol. 00:34:03.190 --> 00:34:07.070 Meanwhile, President Trump said he will "not even consider" 00:34:07.070 --> 00:34:08.540 renaming U.S. Army 00:34:08.540 --> 00:34:12.190 bases named after Confederate military officers. 00:34:12.190 --> 00:34:17.130 There are 10 such bases, all of them in Southern states. 00:34:17.130 --> 00:34:18.700 Trump tweeted Wednesday, 00:34:18.700 --> 00:34:21.980 "These Monumental and very Powerful Bases 00:34:21.980 --> 00:34:24.530 have become part of a Great American Heritage, 00:34:24.530 --> 00:34:29.880 and a history of Winning, Victory, and Freedom," unquote. 00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:33.650 Trump’s tweet contradicted Defense Secretary Mark 00:34:33.650 --> 00:34:36.300 Esper and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chair General Mark 00:34:36.300 --> 00:34:39.190 Milley, who suggested they’re open to discussion 00:34:39.190 --> 00:34:41.560 about renaming the bases. 00:34:41.560 --> 00:34:45.560 And a Republican committee in the Senate 00:34:46.310 --> 00:34:49.560 just voted to rename these bases, 00:34:49.560 --> 00:34:52.210 like Benning and Bragg and Hood, 00:34:52.210 --> 00:34:55.620 that are named for Confederate leaders. 00:34:55.620 --> 00:34:58.170 Meanwhile, in your hometown of Birmingham, 00:34:58.170 --> 00:35:00.930 Alabama, Angela, comedian Jermaine Johnson 00:35:00.930 --> 00:35:03.290 is pleading not guilty to charges of "inciting a riot" 00:35:03.290 --> 00:35:05.440 after he urged protesters at May 31st 00:35:05.440 --> 00:35:07.980 rally to march on a statue of Charles Linn, 00:35:07.980 --> 00:35:10.910 a former officer in the Confederate Navy. 00:35:11.900 --> 00:35:15.150 Did you think you would ever see this? 00:35:16.800 --> 00:35:20.290 You think about Bree Newsome after the horror 00:35:20.290 --> 00:35:25.140 at Mother Emanuel Church in Charleston, South Carolina, 00:35:25.140 --> 00:35:29.820 who shimmied up that flagpole on the grounds 00:35:29.820 --> 00:35:31.850 of the South Carolina Legislature 00:35:31.850 --> 00:35:34.610 and took down the Confederate flag, 00:35:34.610 --> 00:35:36.550 and they put it right on back up. 00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:39.110 What about what we’re seeing today? 00:35:40.540 --> 00:35:41.790 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, of course, 00:35:41.790 --> 00:35:46.140 Bree Newsome was a wonderful pioneer. 00:35:46.140 --> 00:35:50.620 And I think it’s important to link this trend 00:35:50.620 --> 00:35:55.840 to the campaign in South Africa: "roads must fall." 00:35:57.620 --> 00:36:02.290 And, of course, I think this reflects the extent 00:36:02.290 --> 00:36:07.100 to which we are being called upon to deeply reflect 00:36:07.100 --> 00:36:13.630 on the role of historical racisms 00:36:13.630 --> 00:36:17.140 that have brought us to the point where we are today. 00:36:19.550 --> 00:36:27.310 You know, racism should have been immediately confronted 00:36:27.310 --> 00:36:31.260 in the aftermath of the end of slavery. 00:36:31.260 --> 00:36:36.720 This is what Dr. Du Bois’s analysis was all about, 00:36:37.480 --> 00:36:39.190 not so much in terms of, 00:36:39.190 --> 00:36:42.590 "Well, what we were going to do about these poor people 00:36:42.590 --> 00:36:45.840 who have been enslaved so many generations?" 00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:51.160 but, rather, "How can we reorganize our society 00:36:51.160 --> 00:36:54.460 in order to guarantee the incorporation 00:36:54.460 --> 00:36:57.080 of previously enslaved people?" 00:36:57.650 --> 00:37:03.870 Now attention is being turned towards the symbols of slavery, 00:37:03.870 --> 00:37:07.810 the symbols of colonialism. 00:37:08.730 --> 00:37:13.740 And, of course, any campaigns against racism in this country 00:37:13.740 --> 00:37:16.610 have to address, in the very first place, 00:37:16.610 --> 00:37:20.040 the conditions of Indigenous people. 00:37:21.340 --> 00:37:22.570 I think it’s important 00:37:22.570 --> 00:37:25.440 that we’re seeing these demonstrations, 00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:27.990 but I think at the same time we have to recognize 00:37:27.990 --> 00:37:30.860 that we cannot simply get rid of the history. 00:37:31.970 --> 00:37:37.400 We have to recognize the devastatingly negative role 00:37:37.400 --> 00:37:43.310 that that history has played in charting the trajectory 00:37:43.310 --> 00:37:45.490 of the United States of America. 00:37:47.850 --> 00:37:55.390 And so, I think that these assaults on statues represent 00:37:55.390 --> 00:38:00.700 an attempt to begin to think through what we have to do 00:38:00.700 --> 00:38:05.050 to bring down institutions and reenvision them, 00:38:05.570 --> 00:38:10.200 reorganize them, create new institutions 00:38:10.200 --> 00:38:13.960 that can attend to the needs of all people. 00:38:14.780 --> 00:38:16.190 AMY GOODMAN: And what do you think should be done 00:38:16.190 --> 00:38:17.960 with statues, for example, 00:38:17.960 --> 00:38:21.680 to, oh, slaveholding Founding Fathers, 00:38:21.680 --> 00:38:24.810 like George Washington and Thomas Jefferson? 00:38:26.620 --> 00:38:27.860 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, you know, 00:38:27.860 --> 00:38:31.200 museums can play an important educational role. 00:38:32.280 --> 00:38:35.140 And I don’t think we should get rid of 00:38:35.750 --> 00:38:37.600 all of the vestiges of the past, 00:38:37.600 --> 00:38:39.820 but we need to figure out context 00:38:39.820 --> 00:38:43.670 within which people can understand 00:38:44.550 --> 00:38:46.230 the nature of U.S. history 00:38:46.230 --> 00:38:52.550 and the role that racism and capitalism and heteropatriarchy 00:38:52.550 --> 00:38:55.600 have played in forging that history. 00:38:56.490 --> 00:38:59.390 AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about racism and capitalism? 00:38:59.390 --> 00:39:01.790 You often write and speak about 00:39:01.790 --> 00:39:03.470 how they are intimately connected. 00:39:03.470 --> 00:39:06.300 And talk about a world that you envision. 00:39:08.970 --> 00:39:11.750 ANGELA DAVIS: Yeah, racism is integrally linked to capitalism. 00:39:12.430 --> 00:39:14.870 And I think it’s a mistake to assume 00:39:14.870 --> 00:39:19.420 that we can combat racism by leaving capitalism in place. 00:39:20.430 --> 00:39:24.800 As Cedric Robinson pointed out in his book Black Marxism, 00:39:25.350 --> 00:39:28.660 capitalism is racial capitalism. 00:39:30.410 --> 00:39:33.330 And, of course, to just say for a moment, 00:39:33.330 --> 00:39:35.430 that Marx pointed out 00:39:35.950 --> 00:39:38.450 that what he called primitive accumulation, 00:39:40.210 --> 00:39:42.670 capital doesn’t just appear from nowhere. 00:39:42.670 --> 00:39:46.910 The original capital was provided by the labor of slaves. 00:39:46.910 --> 00:39:48.270 The Industrial Revolution, 00:39:48.270 --> 00:39:52.000 which pivoted around the production of capital, 00:39:52.000 --> 00:39:55.750 was enabled by slave labor in the U.S. 00:39:55.750 --> 00:40:00.460 So, I am convinced that the ultimate eradication of racism 00:40:00.460 --> 00:40:04.810 is going to require us to move toward a more socialist 00:40:04.810 --> 00:40:10.330 organization of our economies, of our other institutions. 00:40:10.330 --> 00:40:12.640 I think we have a long way to go 00:40:12.640 --> 00:40:15.590 before we can begin to talk about an economic system 00:40:15.590 --> 00:40:18.330 that is not based on exploitation 00:40:18.330 --> 00:40:21.910 and on the super-exploitation of Black people, 00:40:21.910 --> 00:40:25.090 Latinx people and other racialized populations. 00:40:25.850 --> 00:40:29.640 But I do think that we now have the conceptual 00:40:29.640 --> 00:40:32.690 means to engage in discussions, 00:40:32.690 --> 00:40:35.910 popular discussions, about capitalism. 00:40:35.910 --> 00:40:38.300 Occupy gave us new language. 00:40:38.890 --> 00:40:42.030 The notion of the prison-industrial complex 00:40:42.030 --> 00:40:47.080 requires us to understand the globalization of capitalism. 00:40:48.100 --> 00:40:50.750 Anti-capitalist consciousness helps us 00:40:50.750 --> 00:40:53.780 to understand the predicament of immigrants, 00:40:53.780 --> 00:40:55.680 who are barred from the U.S. 00:40:55.680 --> 00:41:00.320 by the wall that has been created by the current occupant. 00:41:01.010 --> 00:41:05.350 These conditions have been created by global capitalism. 00:41:05.350 --> 00:41:09.210 And I think this is a period during which we need to begin 00:41:09.210 --> 00:41:12.460 that process of popular education, 00:41:12.460 --> 00:41:15.910 which will allow people to understand 00:41:15.910 --> 00:41:21.800 the interconnections of racism, heteropatriarchy, capitalism. 00:41:22.650 --> 00:41:24.450 AMY GOODMAN: Angela, do you think we need a truth 00:41:24.450 --> 00:41:27.370 and reconciliation commission here in this country? 00:41:29.970 --> 00:41:33.460 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, that might be one way to begin, 00:41:33.460 --> 00:41:36.000 but I know we’re going to need a lot more than truth 00:41:36.000 --> 00:41:38.820 and reconciliation. But certainly we need truth. 00:41:40.050 --> 00:41:42.440 I’m not sure how soon reconciliation 00:41:42.440 --> 00:41:44.140 is going to emerge. 00:41:44.800 --> 00:41:47.510 But I think that the whole notion of truth 00:41:47.510 --> 00:41:50.890 and reconciliation allows us to think 00:41:50.890 --> 00:41:57.110 differently about the criminal legal system. 00:41:57.110 --> 00:42:00.780 It allows us to imagine a form of justice 00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:04.110 that is not based on revenge, 00:42:04.110 --> 00:42:07.360 a form of justice that is not retributive. 00:42:07.950 --> 00:42:11.710 So I think that those ideas can help us begin 00:42:11.710 --> 00:42:18.760 to imagine new ways of structuring our institutions, 00:42:19.700 --> 00:42:24.260 such as — well, not structuring the prison, 00:42:24.260 --> 00:42:27.320 because the whole point is that we have to abolish 00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:32.300 that institution in order to begin to envision new ways 00:42:32.300 --> 00:42:38.660 of addressing the conditions that lead to mass incarceration, 00:42:38.660 --> 00:42:43.480 that lead to such horrendous tragedies 00:42:43.480 --> 00:42:45.390 as the murder of George Floyd. 00:42:46.300 --> 00:42:48.480 AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to come back to this discussion 00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:51.220 and also talk about President Trump 00:42:51.220 --> 00:42:53.930 going to Tulsa on Juneteenth. 00:42:54.460 --> 00:42:56.280 We’re speaking with Angela Davis, 00:42:56.280 --> 00:42:58.390 the world-renowned abolitionist, 00:42:58.390 --> 00:43:00.880 author, activist and professor emerita 00:43:00.880 --> 00:43:02.980 at University of California, Santa Cruz, 00:43:02.980 --> 00:43:05.130 author of many books, including Freedom 00:43:05.130 --> 00:43:07.160 Is a Constant Struggle. Stay with us. 00:43:07.710 --> 00:44:21.690 [break] 00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:23.900 AMY GOODMAN: "Shanty Tones" by Filastine. 00:44:23.900 --> 00:44:26.180 This is Democracy Now! The Quarantine Report. 00:44:26.180 --> 00:44:27.830 I’m Amy Goodman, as we spend the hour 00:44:27.830 --> 00:44:30.220 with the legendary activist, scholar, Angela Davis, 00:44:30.220 --> 00:44:33.390 professor emerita at University of California, Santa Cruz. 00:44:33.390 --> 00:44:37.390 President Trump has announced he’s holding his first campaign 00:44:37.390 --> 00:44:40.170 rally since the quarantine, 00:44:40.170 --> 00:44:42.160 since lockdowns across the country, 00:44:42.160 --> 00:44:43.520 since the pandemic. 00:44:43.520 --> 00:44:45.740 He’s holding it in Tulsa, Oklahoma, 00:44:45.740 --> 00:44:48.930 on June 19th — a highly symbolic day. 00:44:48.930 --> 00:44:51.680 It was June 19, 1865, 00:44:51.680 --> 00:44:54.770 that enslaved Africans in Texas first learned they were free, 00:44:54.770 --> 00:44:56.280 two years after Abraham Lincoln 00:44:56.280 --> 00:44:58.700 signed the Emancipation Proclamation. 00:44:58.700 --> 00:45:01.300 The day is now celebrated as Juneteenth. 00:45:01.300 --> 00:45:04.160 California Senator Kamala Harris tweeted in response, 00:45:04.160 --> 00:45:07.070 "This isn’t just a wink to white supremacists — 00:45:07.070 --> 00:45:10.810 he’s throwing them a welcome home party," unquote. 00:45:11.320 --> 00:45:14.290 Well, Tulsa recently marked the 99th anniversary 00:45:14.290 --> 00:45:16.340 of one of the deadliest mass killings 00:45:16.340 --> 00:45:18.240 of African Americans in U.S. history. 00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:22.090 In 1921, a white mob killed as many as 300 people, 00:45:22.090 --> 00:45:24.700 most of them Black, after a Black man 00:45:24.700 --> 00:45:27.020 was accused of assaulting a white woman. 00:45:27.020 --> 00:45:29.100 The white mobs destroyed a thriving 00:45:29.100 --> 00:45:30.850 African American business district 00:45:30.850 --> 00:45:33.570 known at the time as the Black Wall Street of America. 00:45:34.220 --> 00:45:38.000 Well, this all comes as a Tulsa police major 00:45:38.000 --> 00:45:39.740 is coming under fire 00:45:39.740 --> 00:45:42.670 after denying systemic racism in the police force 00:45:42.670 --> 00:45:44.870 there and saying African Americans 00:45:44.870 --> 00:45:48.720 probably should be shot more. Listen carefully. 00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:52.860 This is Major Travis Yates in an interview with KFAQ. 00:45:54.030 --> 00:45:56.220 MJR. TRAVIS YATES: If a certain group is committing more crimes, 00:45:56.220 --> 00:45:59.300 more violent crimes, then that number is going to be higher. 00:45:59.300 --> 00:46:00.670 Who in the world in their right mind 00:46:00.670 --> 00:46:01.880 would think that our shootings 00:46:01.880 --> 00:46:03.860 should be right along the U.S. census line? 00:46:03.860 --> 00:46:06.980 All of the research says we’re shooting African Americans 00:46:06.980 --> 00:46:10.280 about 24% less than we probably ought to be, 00:46:10.280 --> 00:46:12.170 based on the crimes being committed. 00:46:14.010 --> 00:46:15.410 AMY GOODMAN: "We’re shooting them less than 00:46:15.410 --> 00:46:19.090 they probably ought to be"? Tulsa’s mayor and police chief 00:46:19.090 --> 00:46:21.980 have both blasted Yates for the comment, 00:46:21.980 --> 00:46:23.680 but he remains on the force. 00:46:24.230 --> 00:46:27.230 And on Friday, President Trump will be there. 00:46:27.230 --> 00:46:32.220 Angela Davis, your thoughts on the significance of the moment, 00:46:32.220 --> 00:46:33.920 the place? 00:46:36.190 --> 00:46:42.250 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, that’s — well, you know, 00:46:42.250 --> 00:46:44.980 I can’t even respond to anything he does anymore. 00:46:44.980 --> 00:46:47.710 It’s just so, so, so, so ridiculous. 00:46:48.890 --> 00:46:56.680 And it is, however, important to recognize 00:46:56.680 --> 00:47:03.850 that he represents a sector of the population in this country 00:47:03.850 --> 00:47:05.760 that wants to return to the past — 00:47:07.370 --> 00:47:09.440 "Make America great again" — 00:47:10.890 --> 00:47:15.580 with all of its white supremacy, with all of its misogyny. 00:47:16.660 --> 00:47:24.560 And I think that at this moment we are recognizing 00:47:25.080 --> 00:47:30.780 that we cannot be held back by such forces as those represented 00:47:30.780 --> 00:47:36.270 by the current occupant of the White House. 00:47:37.930 --> 00:47:43.040 I doubt very seriously whether the people who come out 00:47:43.040 --> 00:47:44.740 to hear him in Tulsa 00:47:46.510 --> 00:47:51.120 on this historic day — of course, all over the country, 00:47:52.400 --> 00:47:56.770 people of African descent will be observing Juneteenth 00:47:58.590 --> 00:48:02.090 as an emancipatory moment in our history. 00:48:04.260 --> 00:48:10.110 But I think that our role is to start to begin 00:48:10.110 --> 00:48:13.120 to translate some of the energy and passion 00:48:13.120 --> 00:48:15.360 into transforming institutions. 00:48:16.960 --> 00:48:22.020 The process has already begun, and it can’t be turned back, 00:48:22.020 --> 00:48:26.130 at least not by the current occupant of the White House. 00:48:26.130 --> 00:48:30.280 I’m not suggesting that it’s easy to create lasting change, 00:48:30.280 --> 00:48:34.250 but at least now we can see that it is possible. 00:48:35.300 --> 00:48:38.710 When someone like Roger Goodell says "Black lives matter," 00:48:38.710 --> 00:48:41.790 even though he did not mention Colin Kaepernick, 00:48:41.790 --> 00:48:43.430 and even though he may have — 00:48:43.430 --> 00:48:45.180 he probably did not really mean it, 00:48:45.700 --> 00:48:50.710 what that means is that the NFL recognizes 00:48:50.710 --> 00:48:53.300 that it has to begin a new process, 00:48:53.300 --> 00:48:55.580 that there is a further expansion 00:48:56.200 --> 00:48:58.130 of popular consciousness. 00:49:00.050 --> 00:49:03.790 In New York, of course, you need to ask whether you really want 00:49:03.790 --> 00:49:06.380 to create new jails in the boroughs 00:49:06.380 --> 00:49:08.910 in the aftermath of closing Rikers, 00:49:08.910 --> 00:49:11.430 or whether you need new services. 00:49:12.290 --> 00:49:14.540 You know, I’ve been thinking about the case 00:49:14.540 --> 00:49:16.250 of Jussie Smollett, 00:49:16.250 --> 00:49:18.090 and I’m wondering why — in Chicago, 00:49:18.090 --> 00:49:22.450 given the conditions surrounding the murder of Laquan McDonald, 00:49:22.450 --> 00:49:27.440 the police department should be thoroughly investigated. 00:49:27.440 --> 00:49:30.840 And we need to ask: How is it that the public could 00:49:30.840 --> 00:49:34.520 so easily be rallied to the police narrative 00:49:34.520 --> 00:49:38.930 of what happened in the case of Jussie Smollett? 00:49:38.930 --> 00:49:44.730 So, there is so much to be done. And I think that the rallies 00:49:44.730 --> 00:49:47.640 that the current occupant of the White House 00:49:47.640 --> 00:49:51.190 is holding will fade into — 00:49:52.560 --> 00:49:55.560 don’t even merit footnotes in history. 00:49:55.560 --> 00:49:56.820 AMY GOODMAN: Angela Davis, 00:49:56.820 --> 00:49:59.010 I wanted to ask you about another event 00:49:59.010 --> 00:50:02.190 that’s taking place on Juneteenth, on June 19th. 00:50:02.190 --> 00:50:04.030 The Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 00:50:04.030 --> 00:50:08.480 is finally going to issue you the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Award 00:50:08.480 --> 00:50:11.200 during a virtual event on Juneteenth. 00:50:11.200 --> 00:50:12.740 And I wanted to ask you about this, 00:50:12.740 --> 00:50:16.220 because you returned to your hometown of Birmingham, Alabama, 00:50:16.220 --> 00:50:18.110 last February after the institute 00:50:18.110 --> 00:50:22.370 had at first rescinded the award due to your support for BDS — 00:50:22.370 --> 00:50:24.580 Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions movement 00:50:24.580 --> 00:50:26.330 — and your support of Palestinians. 00:50:27.380 --> 00:50:30.820 After outcry, the institute reversed its decision. 00:50:30.820 --> 00:50:33.960 More than 3,000 people gathered to see you talk 00:50:33.960 --> 00:50:35.890 at an alternative event to honor you, 00:50:35.890 --> 00:50:38.010 which was hosted by the Birmingham 00:50:38.010 --> 00:50:40.010 Committee for Truth and Reconciliation. 00:50:40.010 --> 00:50:42.490 This is a clip of your comments that day. 00:50:43.780 --> 00:50:45.660 ANGELA DAVIS: It became clear to me 00:50:45.660 --> 00:50:49.740 that this might actually be a teachable moment. 00:50:49.740 --> 00:50:51.120 IMANI PERRY: Yes. 00:50:51.120 --> 00:50:53.630 ANGELA DAVIS: ... That we might seize this moment 00:50:54.520 --> 00:51:00.630 to reflect on what it means to live on this planet 00:51:00.630 --> 00:51:03.740 in the 21st century and our responsibilities 00:51:03.740 --> 00:51:07.750 not only to people in our immediate community, 00:51:07.750 --> 00:51:10.450 but to people all over the planet. 00:51:10.450 --> 00:51:14.420 AMY GOODMAN: We were there covering this amazing moment, 00:51:14.420 --> 00:51:16.160 where the Birmingham Civil Rights Institute 00:51:16.160 --> 00:51:20.860 had rescinded the award to you, the Fred L. Shuttlesworth Award, 00:51:21.530 --> 00:51:25.540 went through enormous turmoil. The mayor of Birmingham, 00:51:25.540 --> 00:51:29.720 so many people across the spectrum criticized them for it, 00:51:29.720 --> 00:51:31.930 but then this process happened, 00:51:31.930 --> 00:51:34.330 and you are going to be awarded this. 00:51:34.330 --> 00:51:37.280 Can you talk about the significance of this moment? 00:51:37.280 --> 00:51:40.390 And what do you plan to say on Juneteenth, 00:51:40.390 --> 00:51:43.240 the day that President Trump will be in Tulsa? 00:51:45.230 --> 00:51:47.720 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, thank you for reminding me 00:51:47.720 --> 00:51:50.910 that these two events are happening on the same day. 00:51:51.600 --> 00:51:54.410 And, of course, that was, I think, the last time 00:51:54.410 --> 00:51:57.430 I actually saw you in person, Amy, in Birmingham. 00:51:58.780 --> 00:52:01.010 A lot has happened over the last period, 00:52:01.010 --> 00:52:04.460 including within the context of the Birmingham 00:52:04.460 --> 00:52:06.160 Civil Rights Institute. 00:52:06.850 --> 00:52:09.180 They have completely reorganized. 00:52:09.180 --> 00:52:11.040 They have reorganized their board. 00:52:11.040 --> 00:52:14.100 They have been involved in conversations 00:52:14.100 --> 00:52:15.860 with the community. 00:52:16.380 --> 00:52:21.210 Of course, as you know, the mayor of Birmingham 00:52:21.210 --> 00:52:25.630 was threatening to withdraw funding from the institute. 00:52:26.870 --> 00:52:31.160 There was a generalized uprising in the Black community. 00:52:32.200 --> 00:52:35.930 And, you know, while at first it was a total shock to me 00:52:35.930 --> 00:52:37.870 that they offered this award to me, 00:52:37.870 --> 00:52:39.980 and then they rescinded it, 00:52:39.980 --> 00:52:43.350 I’m realizing now that that was an important moment, 00:52:44.400 --> 00:52:47.900 because it encouraged people to think 00:52:47.900 --> 00:52:50.110 about the meaning of human rights 00:52:50.110 --> 00:52:54.130 and why is it that Palestinians could be excluded 00:52:54.130 --> 00:52:59.490 from the process of working toward human rights. 00:53:00.140 --> 00:53:03.350 Palestinian activists have long supported 00:53:03.350 --> 00:53:06.050 Black people’s struggle against racism. 00:53:06.050 --> 00:53:09.600 When I was in jail, solidarity coming from Palestine 00:53:09.600 --> 00:53:12.030 was a major source of courage for me. 00:53:12.030 --> 00:53:14.670 In Ferguson, Palestinians were the first 00:53:14.670 --> 00:53:17.180 to express international solidarity. 00:53:18.530 --> 00:53:24.230 And there has been this very important connection 00:53:24.230 --> 00:53:28.020 between the two struggles for many decades, 00:53:28.690 --> 00:53:36.630 so that I’m going to be really happy to receive the award, 00:53:36.630 --> 00:53:40.400 which now represents a rethinking 00:53:40.400 --> 00:53:45.210 of the rather backward position that the institute assumed, 00:53:45.820 --> 00:53:50.800 that Palestinians could be excluded from the circle 00:53:50.800 --> 00:53:55.450 of those working toward a future of justice, 00:53:55.450 --> 00:53:57.300 equality and human rights. 00:53:57.300 --> 00:53:59.360 AMY GOODMAN: Speaking about what’s going on in the West Bank 00:53:59.360 --> 00:54:00.660 right now 00:54:00.660 --> 00:54:05.310 and about the whole issue of international solidarity, 00:54:06.260 --> 00:54:10.070 the global response to the killing of George Floyd. 00:54:11.340 --> 00:54:13.400 In the occupied West Bank, 00:54:13.400 --> 00:54:16.260 protesters denounced Floyd’s murder 00:54:16.260 --> 00:54:20.020 and the recent killing of Iyad el-Hallak, 00:54:20.020 --> 00:54:24.570 a 32-year-old Palestinian special needs student 00:54:24.570 --> 00:54:26.120 who was shot to death by Israeli 00:54:26.120 --> 00:54:28.350 forces in occupied East Jerusalem. 00:54:28.350 --> 00:54:31.370 He was reportedly chanting "Black lives matter" 00:54:31.370 --> 00:54:34.050 and "Palestinian lives matter," 00:54:34.960 --> 00:54:38.810 when Israeli police gunned him down, claiming he was armed. 00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:41.500 These links that you’re seeing, 00:54:41.500 --> 00:54:43.950 not only in Palestine and the United States, 00:54:43.950 --> 00:54:46.450 but around the world, the kind of global response, 00:54:46.450 --> 00:54:50.360 the tens of thousands of people who marched in Spain, 00:54:51.360 --> 00:54:55.300 who marched in England, in Berlin, in Munich, 00:54:55.300 --> 00:54:58.650 all over the world, as this touches a chord 00:54:58.650 --> 00:55:01.140 and they make demands in their own countries, 00:55:01.140 --> 00:55:02.580 not only in solidarity 00:55:02.580 --> 00:55:04.850 with what’s happening in the United States? 00:55:04.850 --> 00:55:07.650 And then I want to ask you about the U.S. election 00:55:08.260 --> 00:55:09.960 that’s coming up in November. 00:55:11.780 --> 00:55:14.410 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, yes, Palestinian activists 00:55:15.430 --> 00:55:16.970 have long supported 00:55:16.970 --> 00:55:21.240 Black people’s struggle against racism, as I pointed out. 00:55:22.090 --> 00:55:27.520 And I’m hoping that today’s young activists recognize 00:55:27.520 --> 00:55:30.310 how important Palestinian solidarity 00:55:30.310 --> 00:55:33.170 has been to the Black cause, 00:55:33.170 --> 00:55:37.670 and that they recognize that we have a profound responsibility 00:55:37.670 --> 00:55:40.800 to support Palestinian struggles, as well. 00:55:42.690 --> 00:55:44.530 I think it’s also important for us 00:55:44.530 --> 00:55:46.780 to look in the direction of Brazil, 00:55:48.220 --> 00:55:51.200 whose current political leader 00:55:52.680 --> 00:55:56.450 competes with our current political leader 00:55:56.450 --> 00:56:04.370 in many dangerous ways, I would say. 00:56:04.370 --> 00:56:07.820 Brazil — if we think we have a problem 00:56:07.820 --> 00:56:11.910 with racist police violence in the United States of America, 00:56:11.910 --> 00:56:17.590 look at Brazil. Marielle Franco was assassinated 00:56:17.590 --> 00:56:21.620 because she was challenging the militarization of the police 00:56:21.620 --> 00:56:25.530 and the racist violence unleashed there. 00:56:25.530 --> 00:56:30.100 I think 4,000 people were killed last year alone 00:56:30.100 --> 00:56:34.550 by the police in Brazil. So, I’m saying this because — 00:56:35.060 --> 00:56:36.880 AMY GOODMAN: And, of course, the president of Brazil, 00:56:36.880 --> 00:56:40.120 a close ally of President Trump. 00:56:40.120 --> 00:56:43.770 We only have two minutes, and I want to get to the election. 00:56:43.770 --> 00:56:47.080 When I interviewed you in 2016, you said you wouldn’t support 00:56:47.080 --> 00:56:49.830 either main-party candidate at the time. 00:56:49.830 --> 00:56:52.420 What are your thoughts today for 2020? 00:56:53.500 --> 00:56:57.600 ANGELA DAVIS: Well, my position really hasn’t changed. 00:56:57.600 --> 00:57:00.420 I’m not going to actually support 00:57:01.730 --> 00:57:03.800 either of the major candidates. 00:57:03.800 --> 00:57:07.930 But I do think we have to participate in the election. 00:57:07.930 --> 00:57:09.490 I mean, that isn’t to say 00:57:09.490 --> 00:57:12.100 that I won’t vote for the Democratic candidate. 00:57:13.010 --> 00:57:18.590 What I’m saying is that in our electoral system as it exists, 00:57:18.590 --> 00:57:22.050 neither party represents the future 00:57:22.050 --> 00:57:23.600 that we need in this country. 00:57:23.600 --> 00:57:28.390 Both parties remain connected to corporate capitalism. 00:57:28.390 --> 00:57:31.770 But the election will not so much be about 00:57:31.770 --> 00:57:35.950 who gets to lead the country to a better future, 00:57:35.950 --> 00:57:40.180 but rather how we can support ourselves 00:57:40.180 --> 00:57:44.250 and our own ability to continue to organize 00:57:44.250 --> 00:57:47.730 and place pressure on those in power. 00:57:47.730 --> 00:57:52.020 And I don’t think there’s a question about which candidate 00:57:52.020 --> 00:57:56.510 would allow that process to unfold. 00:57:56.510 --> 00:57:59.430 So I think that we’re going to have to translate 00:57:59.430 --> 00:58:01.290 some of the passion 00:58:01.290 --> 00:58:03.990 that has characterized these demonstrations 00:58:03.990 --> 00:58:08.610 into work within the electoral arena, 00:58:08.610 --> 00:58:12.280 recognizing that the electoral arena 00:58:12.940 --> 00:58:16.620 is not the best place for the expression of radical politics. 00:58:17.800 --> 00:58:20.540 But if we want to continue this work, 00:58:20.540 --> 00:58:23.590 we certainly need a person in office 00:58:23.590 --> 00:58:28.800 who will be more amenable to our mass pressure. 00:58:28.800 --> 00:58:31.350 And to me, that is the only thing 00:58:31.350 --> 00:58:35.280 that someone like a Joe Biden represents. 00:58:35.280 --> 00:58:40.180 But we have to persuade people to go out and vote to guarantee 00:58:40.180 --> 00:58:45.410 that the current occupant of the White House is forever ousted. 00:58:45.410 --> 00:58:47.390 AMY GOODMAN: Angela Davis, I want to thank you so much 00:58:47.390 --> 00:58:49.390 for this hour, world-renowned abolitionist, 00:58:49.390 --> 00:58:51.600 author, activist, professor emerita 00:58:51.600 --> 00:58:53.440 at the University of California, Santa Cruz, 00:58:53.440 --> 00:58:55.280 author of many books, including Freedom 00:58:55.280 --> 00:58:57.390 Is a Constant Struggle: Ferguson, Palestine, 00:58:57.390 --> 00:58:58.970 and the Foundations of a Movement. 00:58:58.970 --> 00:59:01.200 I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks so much for joining us. 00:59:01.200 --> 00:59:02.050 Stay safe.