WEBVTT

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Unelected technocrats have taken
over Italy and Greece

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as

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the

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two countries

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continue to battle
a growing debt crisis.

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In Italy, former European

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commissioner Mario Monti

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has replaced former prime
minister Silvio Berlusconi,

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who resigned on Saturday.

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In Greece, Lucas Papademos,

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a former European Central
Bank vice president,

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has been sworn in
as prime minister,

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replacing George Papandreou.

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Earlier today, a group
of protesters gathered

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in front of the Greek parliament

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accusing the new government
of working

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in the interests
of bankers.

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Inspectors from
the International Monetary Fund,

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European Central Bank
and European Union

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are due to start
arriving in Athens today

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to push Greece to take sweeping
austerity measures.

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In Rome, people sang,

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danced and opened bottles
of champagne on Saturday

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following
Berlusconi’s resignation.

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An impromptu orchestra
near the palace

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played the Hallelujah chorus
from George Frideric Handel’s

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"Messiah" soon after
he stepped down.

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In news from the Middle East,
the Arab League

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has suspended Syria

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after President Bashar al-Assad

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reneged on an offer

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to stop the violent crackdown
on protesters

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and open a dialogue
with the opposition.

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Over the past seven months,

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Syrian forces have killed
more than 3,500 people —

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although some estimates
are much higher.

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Syria condemned the Arab
League’s decision describing it

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as an "extremely
dangerous step,"

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but Syrian exiles living
in Jordan welcomed the move.

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Azar Ghazi: "The Syrian people
have waited for this move

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from the Arab League
for a long time.

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This is the start
of the path for victory.

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We in exile are confident
that the Syrian people

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will win in its peaceful
revolution against Bashar

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and all his aides."

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Seventeen members of the Iranian
Revolutionary Guard died

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on Saturday
in a massive explosion

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at an ammunition depot
west of Tehran.

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The dead included General
Hasan Moghaddam,

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a key figure
in Iran’s missile program.

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The explosion
destroyed the base

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which housed Iran’s stockpile
of Shahab missiles,

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a missile capable
of reaching Israel.

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Iran said the explosion occurred

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while military personnel
were transporting munitions,

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but Time Magazine quotes

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an unnamed Western
intelligence source

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saying the Israeli spy agency,
Mossad, carried out the attack.

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The explosion at an ammunition
depot west of Tehran occurred

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just days days
after the U.N. International

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Atomic Energy Agency

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released a report raising
new concerns

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over what it calls
"possible military dimensions"

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to Iran’s nuclear activities.

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On Sunday, President Obama
warned that no options

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are being taken off
the table concerning Iran.

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President Barack Obama:
"The sanctions have enormous

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bite and enormous scope.

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And we’re building
off the platform

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that has already
been established.

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The question is,

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are there additional measures
that we can take?

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And we’re going to explore
every avenue to see

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if we can solve
this issue diplomatically.

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I have said repeatedly,
and I will say it today:

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We are not taking
any options off the table."

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At a Republican presidential
debate in South Carolina

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on Saturday,
several contenders accused Obama

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of being too soft on Iran.

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Mitt Romney: "If we re-elect
Barack Obama,

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Iran will have a nuclear weapon.

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And if we elect Mitt Romney,

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if you elect me
as the next president,

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they will not have
a nuclear weapon."

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Scott Pelley: "But, sir, let me

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—you just described
where we are today,

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and that’s what you’re
going to have to deal with

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if you become president.

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How do you prevent them
from obtaining a nuclear weapon?

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Is it worth going to war
to prevent that?"

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Mitt Romney:
"Well, it’s worth putting

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in place crippling sanctions.

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It’s worth working
with the insurgents

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in the country to encourage
regime change in the country.

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And if all else fails,

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if after all of
the work we’ve done

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there’s nothing else we can do
besides take military action,

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then of course you
take military action.

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It is unacceptable for Iran
to have a nuclear weapon."

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Former Speaker of the House
Newt Gingrich,

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who is rising in
the Republican polls,

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was also asked about Iran.

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Newt Gingrich: "I agree entirely
with Governor Romney.

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If, in the end, despite
all of those things,

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the dictatorship persists,

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you have to take whatever
steps are necessary

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to break its capacity
to have a nuclear weapon."

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Republican Rep. Michele Bachmann
accused President Obama

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of abandoning Israel at time

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when it could become
the target of a nuclear war.

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Rep. Michele Bachmann:
"The table is being set

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for a worldwide
nuclear war against Israel,

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and if there’s anything
that we know,

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President Obama has been

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more than willing to stand
with Occupy Wall Street,

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but he hasn’t been willing
to stand with Israel.

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Israel looks at President Obama,
and they do not see a friend."

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Republican Rep.
Ron Paul offered

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a different take
on dealing with Iran.

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Rep. Ron Paul: "I’m afraid
what’s going on right now

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is similar to the war propaganda

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that went on against Iraq,

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and you know they didn’t have
weapons of mass destruction.

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And it was orchestrated,

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and it was, to me,

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a tragedy of what’s happened
these last 10 years,

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the death and destruction,

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$4 trillion in debt.

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So, no, it’s not worthwhile
going to war.

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If you do, you get a declaration
of war, you fight it,

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and you win it
and get it over with."

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Occupy Oakland protesters
are bracing

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for a morning raid today.

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Hundreds of protesters
have assembled to defend

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the Occupy Oakland encampment.

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The fear of eviction comes
after a series of requests

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to vacate were issued from City
Hall and local businesses.

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On Thursday, a 25-year-old man

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who had spent a few days
in the park was attacked

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and shot to death by two
unidentified individuals.

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The killing exacerbated
existing tensions

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between the encampment
and city officials.

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Oakland has reportedly agreed

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to pay for up
to 1,000 officers

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to be deployed over
the next three days,

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making it the largest

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and most expensive
police operation

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in the city in recent memory.

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Police in Portland, Oregon,
encountered an estimated

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1,000 Occupy protesters

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Sunday afternoon in an attempt

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to shut down
their weeks-old encampment.

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Nearly a dozen law
enforcement agencies

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dispatched more
than 300 officers

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for the eviction
after Mayor Sam Adams

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ordered the camp shut down.

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More than 50
arrests were made.

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In New York City,
Occupy demonstrators

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held a Veterans Day march

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through Lower Manhattan
on Friday.

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The march ended
at Civic Center Park,

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where a number of musicians,

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including Joan Baez, performed.

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Joan Baez, musician:
"Let’s drink.

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Let’s drink
to the lowly of birth,

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spare a thought for
the rag-taggy people.

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Let’s drink to the salt
of the earth.

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Let’s drink to the
hard-working people.

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Let’s drink to the salt
of the earth."

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Numerous veterans spoke out
against war and declared

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their support
for Occupy Wall Street.

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Iraq War veteran, Sgt.
Shamar Thomas,

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described the conditions
veterans face

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when they return
from service overseas.

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Shamar Thomas, Iraq war veteran:
"To come home to a nation

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where they don’t have a job
automatically set up,

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to where, you know,
they have Marines

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getting $1,900
to fight in a war,

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when congressmen and politicians
are making six figures,

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it just shows how much respect

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this country
has for the veterans.

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And we should be
doing a lot more."

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In other Occupy Wall
Street news, police departments

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around the country conducted

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a number of arrests
over the weekend.

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In St. Louis, Missouri,

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authorities arrested 27 people

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who had set up camp
at a downtown plaza.

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In Salt Lake City, Utah,
15 people were arrested.

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In Denver, Colorado,
police arrested

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a half dozen protesters

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and removed items
such as mattresses,

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cooking grills and tents
from a city sidewalk.

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In California,
San Francisco police

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claim two officers were attacked

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by a pair of protesters
in separate incidents,

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resulting in injuries
to the officers.

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Neither of the alleged
assailants were apprehended.

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In Albany, New York,
roughly two dozen demonstrators

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were arrested by state troopers

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after breaking an 11 p.m.

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curfew at Lafayette Park,

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a piece of state-owned property.

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In other Occupy news,
Iraq War veteran Scott Olsen

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has released his
first public statement

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since being shot in the head
by a police projectile

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during an Occupy Oakland protest
nearly three weeks ago.

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Olsen has been released
from the hospital

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but is still
struggling to speak.

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A photo has also been released
showing Scott Olsen smiling

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with a neck brace on
and a scar on his forehead.

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In the message, Olsen wrote,

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"I’m feeling a lot better,

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with a long road
in front of me.

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After my freedom of speech

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was quite literally
taken from me,

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my speech is coming back

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but I’ve got a lot of work
to do with rehab."

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Olsen went on to write,

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"Thank you for all
of your support,

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it has meant the world to me.

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You’ll be hearing more from me
in the near future

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and soon enough we’ll
see you in our streets!"

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In Brazil, 3,000 troops
backed by helicopters

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and armored vehicles invaded
Rio de Janeiro’s largest

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slum on Sunday
in a security operation

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ahead of the World Cup in 2014

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and the Olympics
two years later.

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The raid of the hillside
favela began at 4 a.m.

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The troops encountered
no resistance.

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The authorities had announced
their plans days in advance.

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Sudan is being accused
of bombing a refugee camp

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in the newly formed nation
of South Sudan,

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killing at least 12 people.

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The bomb hit a region

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where more than
20,000 refugees live.

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Growing violence
along the border

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between the two nations
has forced Oxfam

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to withdraw aid workers
from the area.

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Hervé Ladsous is
the chief of U.N.

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peacekeeping in the region.

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Hervé Ladsous,
U.N. peacekeeping chief:

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"On the 9th of November,

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UNMISS was informed
by government

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of South Sudan officials

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that up to nine bombs
had been dropped

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in the areas of Bew Quaffa

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and Yafta in Maban County,

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Upper Nile state—that is to say,

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very near the border
with Blue Nile state.

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The areas are gathering points

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for tens of thousands
of refugees

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from the fighting
in Blue Nile state.

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Humanitarian partners reported
approximately 55,000 people,

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including refugees,

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returnees and internally
displaced persons,

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are currently on the move
as a result of the bombing."

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A new study has found
17.3 percent of adults

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over the age of 25

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in the United States
have no health insurance —

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up nearly three
percentage points

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over the past three years.

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Sunday marked the 10th
anniversary of President George

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W. Bush’s
executive

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order to form
military commissions

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to try prisoners captured
in the war on terror.

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One of the strongest critics
of the military tribunal

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has become retired
U.S. Air Force

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Colonel Moe Davis,

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a former chief prosecutor
for the Guantánamo tribunals.

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Davis recently said,

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"I think we’ve
botched this so bad

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that we’re past
the point of redemption."

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Attorney Michael Ratner
of the Center

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for Constitutional Rights
compared Bush’s executive

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order to a coup d’état.

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Ratner said, "Under that
order the president

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gave himself the authority

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to direct the capture
of any non-citizen anywhere

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in the world allegedly involved
in international terrorism,

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and detain that person
indefinitely without access

00:13:01.020 --> 00:13:02.990
to the remedy
of habeas corpus."

00:13:03.600 --> 00:13:06.420
Despite widespread criticism
of the tribunal system,

00:13:06.420 --> 00:13:08.860
President Obama has backed
the use of the tribunals

00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:10.980
to try prisoners
at Guantánamo.

00:13:10.980 --> 00:13:14.350
Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri
was arraigned last week

00:13:14.350 --> 00:13:16.520
in the 2000 bombing
of the U.S.S.

00:13:16.520 --> 00:13:18.370
Cole off the coast of Yemen.

00:13:19.120 --> 00:13:20.820
And those are some
of the headlines

00:13:20.820 --> 00:13:23.300
this is Democracy Now,
Democracynow.org,

00:13:23.300 --> 00:13:25.260
the War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman.

00:13:25.970 --> 00:13:28.640
AMY GOODMAN: Today in Brussels,
the European Union decided

00:13:28.640 --> 00:13:31.600
to impose sanctions
on 18 Syrians in response

00:13:31.600 --> 00:13:32.990
to the killings of protesters

00:13:32.990 --> 00:13:34.910
by Syrian President
Bashar al-Assad.

00:13:35.410 --> 00:13:37.620
The names of those sanctioned
will be published

00:13:37.620 --> 00:13:40.100
in the E.U.’s Official Journal
in the coming days.

00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:41.420
As a result of the sanctions,

00:13:41.420 --> 00:13:43.220
the disbursement of European

00:13:43.220 --> 00:13:45.390
Investment Bank loans
will also stop.

00:13:45.390 --> 00:13:48.440
The sanctions come after
the Arab League formally

00:13:48.440 --> 00:13:51.150
suspended the Syrian
delegation Saturday.

00:13:51.150 --> 00:13:53.190
Speaking after
the decision was taken,

00:13:53.190 --> 00:13:55.350
Arab League
Secretary-General Nabil

00:13:55.350 --> 00:13:57.460
Elaraby called on
the Syrian government

00:13:57.460 --> 00:14:00.360
to end its brutal crackdown
on opposition forces.

00:14:00.360 --> 00:14:04.060
SECRETARY-GENERAL NABIL 
ELARABY: [translated]

00:14:04.060 --> 00:14:06.410
What the Arab League

00:14:06.410 --> 00:14:08.110
is demanding
from the Syrian government

00:14:08.110 --> 00:14:09.590
is an end to the bloodshed,

00:14:09.590 --> 00:14:11.700
because the Syrian people
are suffering.

00:14:12.760 --> 00:14:14.810
And what we hope
will happen as a result

00:14:14.810 --> 00:14:17.130
of what the Arab League
has demanded in this decision

00:14:17.130 --> 00:14:18.850
that was taken yesterday,

00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:20.860
of which I’m sure
you are aware of,

00:14:20.860 --> 00:14:22.270
what is being demanded

00:14:22.270 --> 00:14:23.800
is a framework
to offer protection.

00:14:23.800 --> 00:14:27.410
And I can tell you that this is
a new issue for the Arab League.

00:14:27.410 --> 00:14:30.350
AMY GOODMAN: The Arab League’s
decision to suspend Syria

00:14:30.350 --> 00:14:32.800
and impose sanctions
over its violent crackdown

00:14:32.800 --> 00:14:35.530
on eight months of protests
infuriated Damascus.

00:14:35.530 --> 00:14:37.030
The decision triggered attacks

00:14:37.030 --> 00:14:38.930
on foreign missions
Saturday night,

00:14:38.930 --> 00:14:40.940
including the embassies
of Saudi Arabia,

00:14:40.940 --> 00:14:42.220
France and Turkey.

00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:44.560
Syrian president Bashar al-Assad

00:14:44.560 --> 00:14:46.400
has called for an emergency

00:14:46.400 --> 00:14:47.750
meeting of the Arab League.

00:14:47.750 --> 00:14:51.180
Meanwhile, Syrian opposition
leader Burhan Ghalioun has said

00:14:51.180 --> 00:14:53.710
yesterday the opposition
Syrian National Council

00:14:53.710 --> 00:14:55.590
will soon open
an office in Turkey.

00:14:55.590 --> 00:14:57.330
His comments
came after meeting

00:14:57.330 --> 00:14:58.860
with the Turkish
foreign minister.

00:14:58.860 --> 00:15:05.790
BURHAN GHALIOUN: 
[translated] I think

00:15:05.790 --> 00:15:08.170
that we will work
together with Turkey,

00:15:08.170 --> 00:15:11.060
like Arab countries
and European countries,

00:15:11.060 --> 00:15:12.510
to free this country,
Syria,

00:15:12.510 --> 00:15:15.450
as soon as possible
and stop the massacre.

00:15:21.440 --> 00:15:24.110
And equally, we denounce
these wrongdoings

00:15:24.110 --> 00:15:25.990
of this regime regarding

00:15:25.990 --> 00:15:27.380
what they have done yesterday

00:15:27.380 --> 00:15:31.000
to the flags
of friend countries.

00:15:31.670 --> 00:15:33.680
AMY GOODMAN: The Assad
government organized

00:15:33.680 --> 00:15:35.660
a rally in the city
of Hama Sunday

00:15:35.660 --> 00:15:37.620
to oppose the
Arab League decision.

00:15:37.620 --> 00:15:40.550
When people at the rally
started denouncing the regime,

00:15:40.550 --> 00:15:42.230
security forces opened fire,

00:15:42.230 --> 00:15:43.690
killing at least eight people.

00:15:43.690 --> 00:15:45.460
The new killings
come amidst reports

00:15:45.460 --> 00:15:47.990
of dozens of deaths
over the last several days,

00:15:47.990 --> 00:15:50.650
most in the flashpoint
area of Homs.

00:15:50.650 --> 00:15:53.120
In a new report
released late last week,

00:15:53.120 --> 00:15:55.440
Human Rights Watch accused
the Assad government

00:15:55.440 --> 00:15:56.860
of "crimes against humanity"

00:15:56.860 --> 00:15:59.880
for killings of protesters
dating back to April.

00:15:59.880 --> 00:16:01.220
Citing what it calls the, quote,

00:16:01.220 --> 00:16:02.950
"systematic nature of abuses

00:16:02.950 --> 00:16:04.620
against civilians...
including torture

00:16:04.620 --> 00:16:05.770
and unlawful killings,"

00:16:05.770 --> 00:16:07.480
Human Rights Watch said the U.N.

00:16:07.480 --> 00:16:09.520
should impose
an arms embargo on Syria

00:16:09.520 --> 00:16:10.780
and refer top officials

00:16:10.780 --> 00:16:13.170
to the International Criminal
Court for prosecution.

00:16:13.170 --> 00:16:16.020
Speaking in Geneva last week,
a spokesperson for the Office

00:16:16.020 --> 00:16:17.530
of the High Commissioner
for Human Rights

00:16:17.530 --> 00:16:20.640
said the U.N.’s new estimate
of 3,500 deaths

00:16:20.640 --> 00:16:23.830
in the Syrian popular uprising
is a conservative figure.

00:16:24.410 --> 00:16:25.580
RAVINA SHAMDASANI: 
The brutal crackdown

00:16:25.580 --> 00:16:27.530
on dissident—on dissent

00:16:27.530 --> 00:16:29.880
in Syria
has so far claimed the lives

00:16:29.880 --> 00:16:33.400
of more than 3,500 Syrians.

00:16:33.400 --> 00:16:36.110
More than 60 people are reported
to have been killed

00:16:36.110 --> 00:16:37.720
by military
and security forces

00:16:37.720 --> 00:16:40.390
since Syria signed
the peace plan sponsored

00:16:40.390 --> 00:16:42.090
by the League of Arab States,

00:16:42.090 --> 00:16:46.660
including at least 19
on Eid al-Adha on Sunday.

00:16:46.660 --> 00:16:49.270
You will find that our estimate
of the death toll

00:16:49.270 --> 00:16:50.780
is relatively conservative

00:16:50.780 --> 00:16:52.400
compared to what others
are saying,

00:16:52.400 --> 00:16:55.720
and this is because we rely
on corroborated information

00:16:55.720 --> 00:16:57.900
for it from credible sources
on the ground,

00:16:58.750 --> 00:17:00.540
inside and outside Syria.

00:17:00.540 --> 00:17:02.940
AMY GOODMAN: To get the latest
on what’s happening in Syria,

00:17:02.940 --> 00:17:05.090
we’re going to go
directly to Damascus.

00:17:05.090 --> 00:17:07.170
We’re joined by Democracy Now!

00:17:07.170 --> 00:17:09.240
audeo stream by Razan Zaitouneh.

00:17:09.240 --> 00:17:11.510
She is a lawyer
and human rights activist.

00:17:11.510 --> 00:17:13.500
She’s been reporting
on the recent protests

00:17:13.500 --> 00:17:15.100
for various networks.

00:17:15.100 --> 00:17:16.310
And I just want to say,

00:17:16.310 --> 00:17:18.990
it may be a little difficult
to understand her.

00:17:18.990 --> 00:17:21.490
It takes great risk on her part

00:17:21.490 --> 00:17:24.090
to even be willing
to talk with us today.

00:17:24.090 --> 00:17:25.560
Welcome to Democracy Now!

00:17:25.560 --> 00:17:29.020
Can you describe, Razan, what is
happening in Syria today?

00:17:31.980 --> 00:17:34.280
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: At the same
time that the protests

00:17:34.280 --> 00:17:37.110
are continuing around
the country daily,

00:17:37.110 --> 00:17:40.960
the average of killing
is also increasing.

00:17:40.960 --> 00:17:45.300
It’s now at least
30 persons get killed daily

00:17:45.300 --> 00:17:47.000
by the regime

00:17:47.000 --> 00:17:49.970
in different cities
of the country,

00:17:49.970 --> 00:17:54.660
especially in Homs
and Hama and Idlib.

00:17:54.660 --> 00:17:57.160
Also, killing under torture,

00:17:57.160 --> 00:18:00.580
in kidnapping people
and killing them

00:18:00.580 --> 00:18:02.110
and then throw them,

00:18:02.110 --> 00:18:05.460
it’s these such accidents

00:18:05.460 --> 00:18:08.510
is increasingly
happening every day

00:18:08.510 --> 00:18:10.570
by the security and shabiha.

00:18:13.030 --> 00:18:15.860
AMY GOODMAN: And what exactly
you’re hearing

00:18:15.860 --> 00:18:17.540
about Homs and Hama,

00:18:17.540 --> 00:18:20.360
the government-organized
rally to condemn

00:18:20.360 --> 00:18:24.050
the Arab League
for kicking Syria out,

00:18:24.050 --> 00:18:26.510
and then the Syrian forces
opening fire

00:18:26.510 --> 00:18:28.380
on their own protest?

00:18:31.370 --> 00:18:33.400
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: They make this
rally yesterday

00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:35.200
in different cities—in Damascus,

00:18:35.200 --> 00:18:36.820
in Homs, in different cities,

00:18:36.820 --> 00:18:39.570
actually—and
they force employees

00:18:39.570 --> 00:18:44.770
and students
go in these rallies.

00:18:44.770 --> 00:18:46.280
They force them.

00:18:46.280 --> 00:18:47.700
They threaten them.

00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:50.660
In Deir ez-Zor,
when a 15-years-old boy

00:18:50.660 --> 00:18:53.640
refused to participate
in this rally,

00:18:53.640 --> 00:18:56.020
he got shot
and killed yesterday.

00:18:56.020 --> 00:18:57.450
So, to this extent,

00:18:57.450 --> 00:19:00.620
they forced people
to participate

00:19:00.620 --> 00:19:02.940
in these rallies

00:19:02.940 --> 00:19:04.920
to show support for the regime,

00:19:04.920 --> 00:19:08.960
which actually very few people
still support it.

00:19:10.000 --> 00:19:12.140
AMY GOODMAN: Talk about
the climate right now

00:19:12.140 --> 00:19:14.070
where you are in Damascus

00:19:14.070 --> 00:19:15.390
and what it means for you

00:19:15.390 --> 00:19:18.310
to even risk
speaking to us,

00:19:18.310 --> 00:19:19.570
speaking to the media,

00:19:19.570 --> 00:19:21.920
to describe
what’s going on in Syria.

00:19:23.740 --> 00:19:30.260
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: Everybody now,
it’s—even we still live in worry

00:19:30.260 --> 00:19:31.690
and fear all the time,

00:19:31.690 --> 00:19:34.980
because nobody feels secure
anymore in this country.

00:19:34.980 --> 00:19:38.430
But we know
that what is going on

00:19:38.430 --> 00:19:42.560
is taking us very quickly
to our freedom.

00:19:42.560 --> 00:19:45.310
And what we see,
even so in Damascus,

00:19:45.310 --> 00:19:49.010
the protest is not that large
like other countries,

00:19:49.010 --> 00:19:52.160
like other cities,
like Homs, for example,

00:19:52.160 --> 00:19:54.310
but there is daily protest.

00:19:54.310 --> 00:19:59.290
People are going on and
insisting to get their freedom.

00:19:59.290 --> 00:20:04.980
We are tired after eight months
of killing, of rape regime,

00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:07.040
but we’re still optimistic,

00:20:07.040 --> 00:20:09.810
and we see our freedom
very close to us.

00:20:09.810 --> 00:20:11.310
AMY GOODMAN: What is
your estimate

00:20:11.310 --> 00:20:12.800
of the number of Syrians

00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:16.760
who have been killed
by the Bashar al-Assad regime?

00:20:17.730 --> 00:20:24.140
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: Our number now
is 4,133 persons who got killed

00:20:24.140 --> 00:20:26.610
since the beginning
of the revolution.

00:20:26.610 --> 00:20:29.330
And we consider
this number as not final,

00:20:29.330 --> 00:20:33.250
because every day
we got new names and new videos

00:20:33.250 --> 00:20:37.240
for people who got killed
a few days or a few weeks ago,

00:20:37.240 --> 00:20:39.220
and we didn’t know
about them then.

00:20:39.220 --> 00:20:43.670
So we think that the number
is much higher than this.

00:20:44.570 --> 00:20:48.070
AMY GOODMAN: The Arab League
suspending Syria,

00:20:48.070 --> 00:20:51.050
the European Union also

00:20:51.050 --> 00:20:52.780
now meeting in Brussels,

00:20:53.430 --> 00:20:55.380
what do you make
of these measures?

00:20:55.380 --> 00:20:56.710
Are they significant?

00:20:56.710 --> 00:20:58.640
And are you calling on the U.N.,

00:20:58.640 --> 00:21:00.620
the U.S. to do anything more?

00:21:00.620 --> 00:21:02.720
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: We have been
waiting

00:21:02.720 --> 00:21:05.680
for the Arab League resolution

00:21:05.680 --> 00:21:07.150
for a long time now.

00:21:07.150 --> 00:21:10.870
They have been just
watching Syrian people

00:21:10.870 --> 00:21:12.550
get killed and do nothing.

00:21:12.550 --> 00:21:17.450
So, this resolution is very
important for us as a Syrian.

00:21:17.450 --> 00:21:20.230
The international community
were saying

00:21:20.230 --> 00:21:21.770
that they can’t do anything,

00:21:21.770 --> 00:21:25.480
because Arab countries
are still supporting the regime.

00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:31.110
Now there is no reason
to just stay watching.

00:21:31.110 --> 00:21:34.590
They should do something
very quickly

00:21:34.590 --> 00:21:37.870
to stop the bloodshed,
to stop the killing.

00:21:37.870 --> 00:21:42.830
There are many steps
should be taken very quickly,

00:21:42.830 --> 00:21:45.690
like referring
the Syrian regime file

00:21:45.690 --> 00:21:47.860
to the International
Criminal Court,

00:21:47.860 --> 00:21:52.560
like many, many other steps
should be taken.

00:21:53.170 --> 00:21:56.210
AMY GOODMAN: Are you concerned
that there could be civil war

00:21:56.210 --> 00:21:57.850
that breaks out in Syria?

00:21:58.710 --> 00:22:02.250
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: My fear that
only to continue like this

00:22:02.250 --> 00:22:04.130
and not do anything by the Arab

00:22:04.130 --> 00:22:06.970
and international community
is the thing

00:22:06.970 --> 00:22:09.550
which will lead
to civil war in Syria.

00:22:09.550 --> 00:22:12.380
To leave people
to their own fate,

00:22:12.380 --> 00:22:15.860
just get killed daily
with all these numbers,

00:22:15.860 --> 00:22:17.890
without any kind of protection,

00:22:17.890 --> 00:22:20.120
that will lead
to a civil war in Syria.

00:22:22.570 --> 00:22:26.330
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about
the general strike in Syria?

00:22:27.040 --> 00:22:29.310
Activists reporting
a general strike

00:22:29.310 --> 00:22:33.560
has entered its second week
in several cities.

00:22:34.770 --> 00:22:37.220
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: It was very
successful in some cities,

00:22:37.220 --> 00:22:40.240
like Daraa and Idlib and Homs.

00:22:40.240 --> 00:22:47.530
It was applied for about
90 percent from those cities.

00:22:47.530 --> 00:22:50.960
It’s still not successful
in other cities,

00:22:50.960 --> 00:22:52.200
like Damascus and Aleppo.

00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:57.590
It still needs to pay
more efforts to work

00:22:57.590 --> 00:23:01.190
on these two cities
to apply the general strike.

00:23:01.190 --> 00:23:04.050
We think that
in the near future,

00:23:04.050 --> 00:23:05.620
the main thing we should work,

00:23:05.620 --> 00:23:07.590
beside continuing the protest,

00:23:07.590 --> 00:23:09.930
is the civil disobedience,

00:23:09.930 --> 00:23:13.140
especially in the two
big cities, Aleppo and Damascus.

00:23:13.140 --> 00:23:17.590
AMY GOODMAN: Why is
the Syrian president,

00:23:17.590 --> 00:23:20.170
why is Bashar al-Assad,
hanging on?

00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:24.220
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: It’s
very normal.

00:23:24.220 --> 00:23:28.090
They all—they feel
that they own this country.

00:23:28.770 --> 00:23:31.280
It’s very difficult to imagine

00:23:31.280 --> 00:23:35.110
that they leave
everything like this,

00:23:35.110 --> 00:23:38.740
a country who they consider
as their own farm

00:23:38.740 --> 00:23:40.130
for four decades,

00:23:40.130 --> 00:23:42.360
to leave this simply and go.

00:23:42.360 --> 00:23:47.930
We know it was difficult for
other dictators in the region,

00:23:47.930 --> 00:23:50.040
but at the end,
they will discover

00:23:50.040 --> 00:23:52.480
that they will have to go,

00:23:52.480 --> 00:23:55.190
with less loss.

00:23:55.190 --> 00:23:56.800
They will go at the end.

00:23:56.800 --> 00:23:59.270
So it’s better
if they do that now,

00:23:59.890 --> 00:24:04.180
with less loss for them
personally and for the country.

00:24:06.570 --> 00:24:07.580
AMY GOODMAN: Razan Zaitouneh,

00:24:07.580 --> 00:24:10.630
how are you keeping
yourself safe?

00:24:11.630 --> 00:24:15.660
RAZAN ZAITOUNEH: I’m in hiding,
as hundreds of activists

00:24:15.660 --> 00:24:17.930
and maybe thousands around
the country,

00:24:17.930 --> 00:24:21.050
hiding, moving around
from place to place,

00:24:21.630 --> 00:24:24.170
trying not to go to places

00:24:24.170 --> 00:24:26.410
where there is
a lot of checkpoints,

00:24:26.410 --> 00:24:28.610
not to use mobile and phones

00:24:28.610 --> 00:24:31.120
and so on very much.

00:24:31.120 --> 00:24:35.760
So I’m just taking some
procedures to protect myself.

00:24:35.760 --> 00:24:36.840
But at the end,

00:24:36.840 --> 00:24:40.370
everybody is under the risk
of getting arrested.

00:24:40.370 --> 00:24:42.010
And it’s OK.

00:24:42.010 --> 00:24:44.100
We are going on.

00:24:44.100 --> 00:24:46.570
We are in our country.

00:24:46.570 --> 00:24:50.120
I’m very happy
that I’m inside my country

00:24:50.120 --> 00:24:52.410
in this historical moment

00:24:52.410 --> 00:24:56.050
and that I will witness the
moment of freedom when it comes.

00:24:56.050 --> 00:24:58.050
Very soon, I hope.

00:24:58.720 --> 00:25:00.300
AMY GOODMAN: Razan Zaitouneh,
stay safe.

00:25:00.300 --> 00:25:02.290
Thank you very much
for being with us.

00:25:02.290 --> 00:25:05.080
She is a human rights lawyer
in Damascus, Syria,

00:25:05.080 --> 00:25:06.610
recently one of the co-winners

00:25:06.610 --> 00:25:07.840
of the European Parliament’s

00:25:07.840 --> 00:25:11.150
2011 Sakharov Prize
for Freedom of Thought.

00:25:11.150 --> 00:25:13.850
Other winners included
Egyptian youth activists

00:25:13.850 --> 00:25:17.050
Asmaa Mahfouz and Mohamed
Bouazizi of Tunisia,

00:25:17.050 --> 00:25:18.830
who was awarded posthumously.

00:25:18.830 --> 00:25:20.530
He had set himself on fire.

00:25:20.530 --> 00:25:23.310
It was the spark that ignited
the Tunisian revolution

00:25:23.310 --> 00:25:25.700
that led to the Egyptian
revolution and beyond.

00:25:26.950 --> 00:25:31.180
Razan Zaitouneh has been
reporting on the recent protests

00:25:31.180 --> 00:25:33.790
for media around the world.
This is Democracy Now!

00:25:33.790 --> 00:25:36.840
We’ll come back to continue
our discussion about Syria,

00:25:36.840 --> 00:25:38.890
and then we’ll talk
about President Obama

00:25:38.890 --> 00:25:41.520
at the APEC Summit
in Hawaii, in a moment.

00:26:53.060 --> 00:26:56.040
AMY GOODMAN: We continue
on Syria with Bassam Haddad,

00:26:56.040 --> 00:26:57.580
the director of the Middle East
Studies Program

00:26:57.580 --> 00:26:58.880
at George Mason University.

00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:00.660
His book, Business Networks
in Syria:

00:27:00.660 --> 00:27:04.580
The Political Economy
of Authoritarian Resilience,

00:27:04.580 --> 00:27:06.380
has just been published.

00:27:06.380 --> 00:27:10.290
Welcome to Democracy Now!,
Bassam Haddad.

00:27:11.000 --> 00:27:13.270
The significance
of what is taking place?

00:27:13.270 --> 00:27:14.950
And the subtitle of your book,

00:27:14.950 --> 00:27:20.700
about the resilience
of an authoritarian

00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:24.530
regime—how is Bashar al-Assad
remaining in power?

00:27:24.530 --> 00:27:25.750
Who is supporting him?

00:27:27.320 --> 00:27:30.530
BASSAM HADDAD: Well, the book is
really about the earlier era,

00:27:30.530 --> 00:27:33.250
between 1970 and 2005,

00:27:33.250 --> 00:27:36.400
where the state
actually came together

00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:37.670
with top business elites

00:27:37.670 --> 00:27:41.280
to literally hijack the economic
policy-making process

00:27:41.280 --> 00:27:42.680
and create

00:27:42.680 --> 00:27:46.410
a major part of the cause
of what we are seeing today,

00:27:46.410 --> 00:27:50.190
which is the disenfranchisement
of most Syrians

00:27:50.190 --> 00:27:52.160
as a result
of the social polarization

00:27:52.160 --> 00:27:54.890
that these networks

00:27:54.890 --> 00:27:57.010
created in society
between rich and poor,

00:27:57.010 --> 00:27:59.760
between haves and have-nots,
and between regions,

00:27:59.760 --> 00:28:02.130
which is actually
how we found out

00:28:02.130 --> 00:28:06.570
or how we witnessed the revolt
proceed from the countryside,

00:28:06.570 --> 00:28:08.660
from the periphery,
as opposed to the center,

00:28:08.660 --> 00:28:10.740
which has been
severely neglected.

00:28:10.740 --> 00:28:13.890
The Syrian regime
has actually survived, you know,

00:28:13.890 --> 00:28:17.030
based on a combination
of strategies,

00:28:17.030 --> 00:28:18.880
including violence,

00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:20.750
but not limited to violence.

00:28:20.750 --> 00:28:22.910
It is just that we are
getting to the point

00:28:22.910 --> 00:28:26.690
where the formula
has actually broken down

00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:29.460
as a result
of disenfranchisement

00:28:29.460 --> 00:28:32.910
that most Syrians
have actually reached

00:28:32.910 --> 00:28:35.070
in terms of their ability

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to make ends meet and,

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as well, of course,
in the absence

00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:41.320
of any kinds
of avenues for redress,

00:28:41.320 --> 00:28:43.600
for political redress,
for acquiring rights

00:28:43.600 --> 00:28:45.260
or for defending themselves.

00:28:45.260 --> 00:28:49.480
The Tunisian revolution
sparked the Syrian revolt,

00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:53.800
perhaps at a point
where the Syrian situation

00:28:53.800 --> 00:28:55.480
was not as ripe as,

00:28:55.480 --> 00:28:57.870
let’s say,
Egypt or other places.

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But I think what we have today

00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:02.560
is the beginning of the end

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of the era of the Ba’ath Party
rule in Syria.

00:29:06.260 --> 00:29:08.930
AMY GOODMAN: How will it end?
How do you see that happening,

00:29:08.930 --> 00:29:10.930
Professor Haddad?

00:29:12.160 --> 00:29:15.080
BASSAM HADDAD: Actually,
I cannot really answer

00:29:15.080 --> 00:29:17.090
this question
with any credibility.

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I don’t think anybody can.

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But if we are to speculate,

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it does not seem that
the Syrian regime

00:29:22.850 --> 00:29:27.230
is intent or is capable
of any genuine compromise,

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especially after the death toll

00:29:28.740 --> 00:29:32.050
has reached 4,000
people in Syria.

00:29:32.050 --> 00:29:34.510
We have a couple of options.

00:29:34.510 --> 00:29:37.720
I would not actually,
you know,

00:29:37.720 --> 00:29:39.200
place a lot of emphasis

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on the Arab League’s decision.

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On the one hand,
it’s important that

00:29:45.150 --> 00:29:46.420
the Arab League has done that,

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because it is consequential
for other players,

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in the sense that
the Arab League’s decision

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is a signal or a prelude

00:29:53.650 --> 00:29:56.130
to some sort of
international intervention,

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which will be detrimental
to all parties involved,

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including the Syrian people,

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especially if it takes
a military dimension

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or a military tone.

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So, on the one hand,

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this is basically
still an open game;

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on the other hand,
the regime of—the violence

00:30:12.470 --> 00:30:13.910
of the Syrian regime

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must be condemned

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with the strongest
possible language.

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One wonders, however,
who are the actors

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that are going to bring
about an end.

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All the actors involved,

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including the Arab League

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and the member
states—ultimately,

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the Arab League
is a club

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of autocrats and oligarchs

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that are not actually
fit to push

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for this kind of a resolution.

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They themselves have actually
oppressed their own people,

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and they have now
basically shown

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that there is this desire

00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:48.280
to end the violence in Syria,

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but it is not clear

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how they would
actually themselves deal

00:30:51.770 --> 00:30:55.390
with their own people
in the case of a revolt.

00:30:55.390 --> 00:30:59.700
But I do see some sort of an end
in the coming months,

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if not weeks,
that might involve, actually,

00:31:03.180 --> 00:31:05.910
some sort of economic crisis
inside Syria,

00:31:05.910 --> 00:31:07.340
in terms of funding

00:31:07.340 --> 00:31:11.370
the—funding this oppression
of the revolution.

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There will come a point
in the next few months,

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and one hopes much earlier,

00:31:15.710 --> 00:31:16.930
where this will become

00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:19.510
an internal debate
within the Syrian regime,

00:31:19.510 --> 00:31:21.920
because it’s going
to cost ever more

00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:24.190
to actually continue
this oppression,

00:31:24.190 --> 00:31:27.510
and that might spark some
sort of compromise internally.

00:31:27.510 --> 00:31:30.380
But besides that, it seems
like the Syrian regime

00:31:30.380 --> 00:31:33.100
is intent on fighting
’til the end, ’til death.

00:31:33.100 --> 00:31:35.060
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk
further about the possibility

00:31:35.060 --> 00:31:36.500
of external intervention?

00:31:36.500 --> 00:31:38.510
And what would it mean
for the people of Syria?

00:31:40.830 --> 00:31:42.790
BASSAM HADDAD: Basically,
external intervention

00:31:42.790 --> 00:31:44.280
can take many forms.

00:31:44.280 --> 00:31:46.030
If it does take
a military form,

00:31:46.030 --> 00:31:48.690
it will—as I said,
no one will win,

00:31:48.690 --> 00:31:50.370
and the Syrian people themselves

00:31:50.370 --> 00:31:53.120
will actually be
the biggest losers.

00:31:53.120 --> 00:31:56.170
The talk of external
intervention

00:31:56.170 --> 00:31:57.960
in the Arab League’s decision,

00:31:57.960 --> 00:32:00.810
which might be a prelude
to external intervention,

00:32:00.810 --> 00:32:04.240
and the Arab League’s decision
to speak on behalf of democracy,

00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:07.340
is in many ways
extremely hypocritical.

00:32:07.340 --> 00:32:10.170
It is almost like—it’s
basically like Israel speaking

00:32:10.170 --> 00:32:13.110
on behalf of equal rights
or the United States

00:32:13.110 --> 00:32:15.350
speaking on behalf
of international law.

00:32:15.350 --> 00:32:19.090
I do not feel that
this kind of approach

00:32:19.090 --> 00:32:23.470
is likely to lead
to a resolution,

00:32:23.470 --> 00:32:26.090
at the same time that it seems
like a dead end

00:32:26.090 --> 00:32:29.950
without some sort of
external threat, at least.

00:32:29.950 --> 00:32:32.360
And I think that threat
should take forms

00:32:32.360 --> 00:32:33.670
that are non-military.

00:32:33.670 --> 00:32:35.600
The economic sanctions
that are taking place

00:32:35.600 --> 00:32:38.070
targeting particular
individuals might,

00:32:38.070 --> 00:32:40.490
as we have been listening
and seeing and reading.

00:32:41.080 --> 00:32:42.360
In the cases of Aleppo,

00:32:42.360 --> 00:32:47.090
there is a slow drain
of business people

00:32:47.090 --> 00:32:49.650
that have been supporting
the regime early on,

00:32:49.650 --> 00:32:52.600
but now they are
basically defecting,

00:32:52.600 --> 00:32:54.770
so to speak,
in a very silent manner.

00:32:54.770 --> 00:32:59.720
I suspect that the defection
of the business classes

00:32:59.720 --> 00:33:01.660
from the regime’s ranks

00:33:01.660 --> 00:33:04.510
is going to continue
and increase very rapidly.

00:33:04.510 --> 00:33:06.250
And it is very
difficult to tell

00:33:06.250 --> 00:33:07.820
when the breaking point will be.

00:33:07.820 --> 00:33:10.800
But it seems that
the best scenario

00:33:10.800 --> 00:33:14.540
for some sort of—and
this is a cold analysis,

00:33:14.540 --> 00:33:16.270
of course—but
the best scenario

00:33:16.270 --> 00:33:17.600
for some sort of conclusion

00:33:17.600 --> 00:33:21.730
here would have to be
serious economic pressure

00:33:21.730 --> 00:33:24.420
that will cause
or force the regime

00:33:24.420 --> 00:33:26.660
to reevaluate its priorities.

00:33:26.660 --> 00:33:28.290
AMY GOODMAN: And what do you
think the U.N. should do,

00:33:28.290 --> 00:33:29.960
and the U.S.?

00:33:29.960 --> 00:33:33.180
BASSAM HADDAD: The United States
and the U.N.

00:33:33.780 --> 00:33:35.320
are—I mean,
they’re different things,

00:33:35.320 --> 00:33:36.990
or they should be
different things,

00:33:36.990 --> 00:33:40.700
but I feel that
the most that

00:33:40.700 --> 00:33:43.330
international—the
international environment

00:33:43.330 --> 00:33:44.740
or the international community,

00:33:44.740 --> 00:33:47.320
so to speak—because I,
you know, have an issue

00:33:47.320 --> 00:33:50.590
with the international community
question—but

00:33:50.590 --> 00:33:54.120
they must continue to apply
diplomatic pressures,

00:33:54.120 --> 00:33:56.120
economic pressures
and sanctions.

00:33:56.120 --> 00:33:59.510
And if anything, if there
is any sort of idea

00:33:59.510 --> 00:34:03.810
of deployment
of peacekeeping forces,

00:34:03.810 --> 00:34:06.370
I think any non-Arab
peacekeeping forces

00:34:06.370 --> 00:34:10.180
or any non-Arab
military intervention of any

00:34:10.180 --> 00:34:13.790
sort will actually
exacerbate the situation

00:34:13.790 --> 00:34:15.620
to the detriment
of the Syrian people.

00:34:15.620 --> 00:34:16.910
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted
to ask you,

00:34:16.910 --> 00:34:19.150
as a director of the Middle
East Studies Program,

00:34:19.150 --> 00:34:20.970
in general, at George Mason,

00:34:20.970 --> 00:34:24.370
about the increasing tension
with Iran—the reports

00:34:24.370 --> 00:34:27.530
that 17 members of
the Iranian Revolution Guard

00:34:27.530 --> 00:34:29.870
died Saturday
in a massive explosion

00:34:29.870 --> 00:34:32.040
at an ammunitions depot
west of Tehran,

00:34:32.040 --> 00:34:34.510
the dead including General
Hasan Moghaddam,

00:34:34.510 --> 00:34:37.070
a key figure
in Iran’s missile program,

00:34:37.070 --> 00:34:40.430
the explosion
destroying the base

00:34:40.430 --> 00:34:42.940
which housed Iran’s stockpile
of Shahab missiles,

00:34:42.940 --> 00:34:45.260
a missile capable
of reaching Israel.

00:34:45.260 --> 00:34:46.790
Time magazine is quoting

00:34:46.790 --> 00:34:49.620
an unnamed Western
intelligence source

00:34:49.620 --> 00:34:53.150
saying the Israeli spy agency
Mossad carried out the attack.

00:34:54.680 --> 00:34:58.410
BASSAM HADDAD: We do not know
exactly, you know,

00:34:58.410 --> 00:35:03.020
the details
or what happened in Iran.

00:35:03.020 --> 00:35:05.270
But in relation
to our discussion,

00:35:07.310 --> 00:35:10.720
the situation in Iran
is going to, perhaps,

00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:13.450
affect what is going on
in Syria in indirect ways.

00:35:13.450 --> 00:35:16.510
We have seen, in the past week
or so,

00:35:16.510 --> 00:35:18.770
threats coming from Israel

00:35:18.770 --> 00:35:22.680
regarding Iran’s alleged
nuclear weapon building,

00:35:22.680 --> 00:35:25.230
and it seems that
this situation,

00:35:25.230 --> 00:35:27.550
as it percolates,

00:35:27.550 --> 00:35:29.300
might lead to some
sort—might

00:35:29.300 --> 00:35:31.570
flare up into something
that is unanticipated,

00:35:31.570 --> 00:35:33.540
something of a, perhaps,

00:35:33.540 --> 00:35:35.830
small skirmish
or confrontation,

00:35:36.830 --> 00:35:39.770
and a response from Israel
that might actually spin

00:35:39.770 --> 00:35:42.290
the entire situation
out of control,

00:35:42.290 --> 00:35:43.830
which actually, ultimately,

00:35:43.830 --> 00:35:45.810
will end up supporting
the Syrian regime,

00:35:45.810 --> 00:35:47.990
because it will
detract attention

00:35:47.990 --> 00:35:49.980
from what’s happening in Syria

00:35:49.980 --> 00:35:54.200
and create the kind of
regional mayhem that, actually,

00:35:54.200 --> 00:35:57.500
we’re trying to avoid
by talking about

00:35:57.500 --> 00:35:58.830
or by—myself,

00:35:58.830 --> 00:36:01.950
in this case—
discussing the perils

00:36:01.950 --> 00:36:03.640
of international intervention.

00:36:03.640 --> 00:36:05.840
But besides that,

00:36:05.840 --> 00:36:08.210
I will not
speculate much more

00:36:08.210 --> 00:36:10.170
about this incident.
It’s too early.

00:36:10.170 --> 00:36:11.410
AMY GOODMAN: Bassam Haddad,
I want to thank you

00:36:11.410 --> 00:36:12.810
for being with us,
director of the Middle East

00:36:12.810 --> 00:36:15.040
Studies Program at
George Mason University.

00:36:15.040 --> 00:36:18.090
His book is just out, called
Business Networks in Syria:

00:36:18.090 --> 00:36:22.090
The Political Economy
of Authoritarian Resilience.

00:36:26.760 --> 00:36:30.610
AMY GOODMAN: This weekend,
President Obama greeted

00:36:30.610 --> 00:36:32.310
world leaders at APEC,

00:36:32.310 --> 00:36:35.090
the Asia-Pacific
Economic Cooperation summit

00:36:35.090 --> 00:36:37.020
in his birthplace, Hawaii.

00:36:37.020 --> 00:36:38.980
Opening the plenary
session in Honolulu,

00:36:38.980 --> 00:36:41.240
Obama said
the Asia-Pacific region

00:36:41.240 --> 00:36:42.720
is essential for prosperity

00:36:42.720 --> 00:36:44.080
in the United States.

00:36:44.080 --> 00:36:45.170
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: 
And I want to emphasize

00:36:45.170 --> 00:36:47.280
that the Asia-Pacific region

00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:50.230
is absolutely critical

00:36:50.230 --> 00:36:52.190
to America’s economic growth.

00:36:52.190 --> 00:36:54.360
We consider it a top priority.

00:36:55.340 --> 00:36:58.380
And we consider it
a top priority

00:36:58.380 --> 00:36:59.610
because we’re not
going to be able

00:36:59.610 --> 00:37:01.370
to put our folks back to work

00:37:01.370 --> 00:37:04.200
and grow our economy
and expand opportunity

00:37:04.200 --> 00:37:07.450
unless the Asia-Pacific region
is also successful.

00:37:07.450 --> 00:37:08.560
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile,
activists

00:37:08.560 --> 00:37:10.490
with the group Occupy Honolulu

00:37:10.490 --> 00:37:12.080
coordinated a march
on the summit

00:37:12.080 --> 00:37:14.690
to protest neoliberal
trade deals under APEC,

00:37:14.690 --> 00:37:17.470
as well as what they call
draconian security measures

00:37:17.470 --> 00:37:20.060
around this weekend’s
gathering in Hawaii.

00:37:20.060 --> 00:37:22.670
More than a hundred protesters
gathered at a local park

00:37:22.670 --> 00:37:25.170
and marched on Saturday
toward central Honolulu,

00:37:25.170 --> 00:37:27.310
where the APEC summit
was being held.

00:37:27.310 --> 00:37:29.370
This is activist Jason Farris.

00:37:29.370 --> 00:37:33.650
JASON FARRIS: The whole ideology
of global capitalism

00:37:33.650 --> 00:37:35.680
is that there’s
a trickle-down effect.

00:37:35.680 --> 00:37:37.540
That’s the myth
they’ve been trying

00:37:37.540 --> 00:37:39.760
to sell us for 40 years,

00:37:39.760 --> 00:37:42.220
and we’re still waiting
for the trickle down.

00:37:42.890 --> 00:37:45.030
The middle class
is disappearing,

00:37:45.030 --> 00:37:47.180
the rich are getting richer,
and the poor are getting poorer.

00:37:47.180 --> 00:37:51.360
And, you know, that’s due
to these policies,

00:37:51.360 --> 00:37:53.230
organizations like APEC.

00:37:53.230 --> 00:37:54.490
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile,
within the heavily

00:37:54.490 --> 00:37:57.570
guarded compound where the APEC
meeting was taking place,

00:37:57.570 --> 00:37:59.530
renowned Hawaiian musician,

00:37:59.530 --> 00:38:03.000
guitarist, Makana, carried out
his own act of protest.

00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:05.860
He had been invited
to play instrumental music

00:38:05.860 --> 00:38:08.740
at the APEC gala dinner
on Saturday night.

00:38:08.740 --> 00:38:10.440
He had previously performed

00:38:10.440 --> 00:38:12.990
at the White House in 2009.

00:38:12.990 --> 00:38:15.850
At the dinner, Makana opened
his jacket to reveal

00:38:15.850 --> 00:38:17.390
a T-shirt
which read,

00:38:17.390 --> 00:38:19.710
quote, "Occupy with Aloha."

00:38:19.710 --> 00:38:22.220
Then, instead of playing
the background instrumental

00:38:22.220 --> 00:38:23.820
he was scheduled to play,

00:38:23.820 --> 00:38:25.680
he started to sing
a protest song

00:38:25.680 --> 00:38:27.220
he had released earlier
that day.

00:38:28.090 --> 00:38:30.780
As world leaders
including President Obama

00:38:30.780 --> 00:38:32.370
and the Chinese premier

00:38:32.370 --> 00:38:34.330
Hu Jintao sat
in the audience,

00:38:34.330 --> 00:38:36.620
Makana sang "We are the Many."

00:38:36.620 --> 00:38:40.170
Here, Makana explains why he
chose to act the way he did.

00:38:40.800 --> 00:38:42.580
MAKANA: So, I just came
from playing

00:38:42.580 --> 00:38:45.860
the world leaders’ dinner
at APEC here in Honolulu

00:38:45.860 --> 00:38:48.050
for the Obamas

00:38:48.050 --> 00:38:51.850
and, I guess, 19 or 20
other world leaders.

00:38:51.850 --> 00:38:54.470
So I showed up
and did my gig.

00:38:54.470 --> 00:38:55.920
And I started to look around,

00:38:55.920 --> 00:38:58.200
and I thought about
this song song

00:38:58.200 --> 00:38:59.700
I just wrote called
"We are the Many."

00:38:59.700 --> 00:39:07.360
And it was
an incredible experience

00:39:07.360 --> 00:39:08.910
to sing the words,

00:39:08.910 --> 00:39:10.630
those words,

00:39:10.630 --> 00:39:21.040
to that room of people.

00:39:21.640 --> 00:39:22.900
And I didn’t belt it out.

00:39:22.900 --> 00:39:25.000
I started out very subtly
and subliminally.

00:39:25.000 --> 00:39:29.310
And I was like, "Ye come here,
gather ’round the stage.

00:39:29.310 --> 00:39:32.870
The time has come for us
to voice our rage."

00:39:33.500 --> 00:39:35.370
"Did he just say
what I think he said?"

00:39:35.370 --> 00:39:37.430
And then I realized that, "Wow!

00:39:37.430 --> 00:39:39.250
I didn’t get in trouble!"
So I played it again.

00:39:39.250 --> 00:39:41.060
And I made like
a different version of it,

00:39:41.060 --> 00:39:44.780
ended up playing it
for about 45 minutes.

00:39:44.780 --> 00:39:48.490
To be able to sing
that there was an epic feeling.

00:39:48.490 --> 00:39:49.220
It felt right.

00:39:49.220 --> 00:39:54.050
My uncle always told me,
"Play what’s in your heart,

00:39:54.050 --> 00:39:55.510
and play to the audience,
you know.

00:39:55.510 --> 00:39:57.860
Play what you feel
is right for them."

00:39:57.860 --> 00:39:59.930
That’s what I did.

00:39:59.930 --> 00:40:03.060
And I found it odd that I
was afraid to do it at first.

00:40:03.060 --> 00:40:05.510
I found that disturbing.
That’s kind of why I did it.

00:40:05.510 --> 00:40:07.010
I didn’t like the idea
of being afraid

00:40:07.010 --> 00:40:08.330
to sing a song that I created.

00:40:08.330 --> 00:40:12.570
I’ve never in my life
been afraid to sing anything.

00:40:12.570 --> 00:40:16.590
If that’s what we’ve come
to in the world,

00:40:16.590 --> 00:40:19.530
where we’re afraid
to say certain things

00:40:19.530 --> 00:40:21.050
in the company
of certain people,

00:40:21.050 --> 00:40:23.250
I think that’s
a dangerous place to be.

00:40:23.250 --> 00:40:26.620
And so, for me to move out
of that space,

00:40:26.620 --> 00:40:28.900
I had to sing the song.

00:40:28.900 --> 00:40:31.100
And that’s what I did.

00:40:31.100 --> 00:40:32.390
AMY GOODMAN: Hawaiian musician
Makana,

00:40:32.390 --> 00:40:34.260
speaking about his act
of protest

00:40:34.260 --> 00:40:36.470
at the APEC gala dinner

00:40:36.470 --> 00:40:39.740
with heads of state
this weekend in Honolulu.

00:40:39.740 --> 00:40:43.300
We turn now to a fuller version
of Makana’s song,

00:40:43.300 --> 00:40:45.300
"We are the Many."

00:40:45.300 --> 00:40:55.510
MAKANA: [singing] Ye come here,

00:40:55.510 --> 00:40:57.650
gather ’round the stage

00:40:58.440 --> 00:41:02.670
The time has come for us
to voice our rage

00:41:04.220 --> 00:41:07.710
Against the ones who’ve
trapped us in a cage

00:41:09.480 --> 00:41:13.820
To steal from us
the value of our wage

00:41:13.820 --> 00:41:18.660
From underneath
the vestiture of law

00:41:19.600 --> 00:41:23.700
The lobbyists at Washington
do gnaw

00:41:25.620 --> 00:41:29.170
At liberty,
the bureaucrats guffaw

00:41:30.900 --> 00:41:34.830
And until they are purged,
we won’t withdraw

00:41:35.950 --> 00:41:38.700
We’ll occupy the streets

00:41:38.700 --> 00:41:41.720
We’ll occupy the courts

00:41:41.720 --> 00:41:44.270
We’ll occupy the offices of you

00:41:44.270 --> 00:41:48.220
’Til you do

00:41:48.220 --> 00:41:53.860
The bidding of the many,
not the few

00:41:53.860 --> 00:42:06.890
Our nation was built
upon the right

00:42:08.930 --> 00:42:12.260
Of every person
to improve their plight

00:42:14.200 --> 00:42:18.430
But laws of this republic
they rewrite

00:42:19.660 --> 00:42:23.120
And now a few own
everything in sight

00:42:24.820 --> 00:42:28.670
They own it free of liability

00:42:30.640 --> 00:42:34.090
They own,
but they are not like you and me

00:42:35.950 --> 00:42:39.240
Their influence
dictates legality

00:42:41.570 --> 00:42:45.570
And until they are stopped
we are not free

00:42:46.910 --> 00:42:49.470
We’ll occupy the streets

00:42:49.470 --> 00:42:52.220
We’ll occupy the courts

00:42:52.770 --> 00:42:57.620
We’ll occupy the offices of you

00:42:57.620 --> 00:43:01.170
’Til you do

00:43:01.170 --> 00:43:03.350
The bidding of the many,

00:43:03.350 --> 00:43:14.540
not the few

00:43:14.540 --> 00:43:18.370
You enforce your monopolies
with guns

00:43:19.710 --> 00:43:23.720
While sacrificing our daughters
and sons

00:43:25.310 --> 00:43:28.780
But certain things
belong to everyone

00:43:29.580 --> 00:43:34.270
Your thievery has left
the people none

00:43:35.950 --> 00:43:40.560
So take heed of our
notice to redress

00:43:41.670 --> 00:43:45.160
We have little to lose,
we must confess

00:43:45.160 --> 00:43:51.030
Your empty words
do leave us unimpressed

00:43:52.810 --> 00:43:56.750
A growing number join us
in protest

00:43:57.880 --> 00:44:00.950
We occupy the streets

00:44:00.950 --> 00:44:03.520
We occupy the courts

00:44:03.520 --> 00:44:08.760
We occupy the offices of you

00:44:08.760 --> 00:44:10.540
’Til you do

00:44:10.540 --> 00:44:14.210
The bidding of the many,

00:44:14.210 --> 00:44:26.270
not the few

00:44:26.270 --> 00:44:29.560
You can’t divide us into sides

00:44:31.760 --> 00:44:33.400
And from our gaze,

00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:34.610
you cannot hide

00:44:36.800 --> 00:44:40.690
Denial serves to amplify

00:44:42.770 --> 00:44:45.610
And our allegiance you can’t buy

00:44:48.330 --> 00:44:51.870
Our government is not for sale

00:44:53.490 --> 00:44:56.650
The banks do not deserve a bail

00:44:59.440 --> 00:45:02.850
We will not reward
those who fail

00:45:02.850 --> 00:45:08.210
We will not move till we prevail

00:45:09.610 --> 00:45:12.410
We’ll occupy the streets

00:45:12.410 --> 00:45:14.230
We’ll occupy the courts

00:45:14.230 --> 00:45:16.280
We’ll occupy the offices of you

00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:17.160
’Til you do

00:45:17.160 --> 00:45:22.640
The bidding of the many,
not the few.

00:45:23.700 --> 00:45:27.140
AMY GOODMAN: Makana, singing
"We are the Many."

00:45:29.650 --> 00:45:31.230
AMY GOODMAN: As President
Obama heads

00:45:31.230 --> 00:45:32.900
to Indonesia during
his nine-day trip

00:45:32.900 --> 00:45:35.790
through the Asia-Pacific region,
we turn to East Timor.

00:45:35.790 --> 00:45:37.680
This weekend marked
the 20th anniversary

00:45:37.680 --> 00:45:39.520
of the Santa Cruz massacre.

00:45:39.520 --> 00:45:41.430
On November 12th, 1991,

00:45:41.430 --> 00:45:43.470
Indonesian troops opened fire

00:45:43.470 --> 00:45:45.680
on a peaceful
memorial procession

00:45:45.680 --> 00:45:47.940
at the Santa Cruz
cemetery in Dili.

00:45:47.940 --> 00:45:49.990
They were armed
with U.S. M16s.

00:45:49.990 --> 00:45:53.030
They killed more than 270
East Timorese.

00:45:53.030 --> 00:45:54.760
On Saturday,
Amnesty International

00:45:54.760 --> 00:45:57.500
called for a judicial
inquiry into the massacre.

00:45:57.500 --> 00:45:59.090
In a statement, it said, quote,

00:45:59.090 --> 00:46:01.360
"The continued
failure—twenty years later—

00:46:01.360 --> 00:46:03.870
to hold all the perpetrators
to account highlights

00:46:03.870 --> 00:46:06.230
a wider problem
of impunity for crimes

00:46:06.230 --> 00:46:07.590
under international law

00:46:07.590 --> 00:46:09.480
and other human
rights violations

00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:11.440
committed during
the Indonesian occupation

00:46:11.440 --> 00:46:12.730
of [East Timor]

00:46:12.730 --> 00:46:15.720
between 1975 and 1999."

00:46:15.720 --> 00:46:20.880
Today we go back to that day,
November 12th, 1991.

00:46:21.540 --> 00:46:23.140
This is a radio documentary

00:46:23.140 --> 00:46:24.530
that journalist Allan Nairn

00:46:24.530 --> 00:46:27.910
and I produced
about 20 years ago,

00:46:28.470 --> 00:46:31.620
going back to the day
of the massacre.

00:46:31.620 --> 00:46:34.550
It was the two-week anniversary

00:46:34.550 --> 00:46:36.430
of the Indonesian
military killing

00:46:36.430 --> 00:46:39.440
a young Timorese
named Sebastião Gomes.

00:46:39.440 --> 00:46:42.660
The people gathered then,
two weeks later, November 12th.

00:46:43.770 --> 00:46:45.980
AMY GOODMAN: And then came
the morning of November 12,

00:46:45.980 --> 00:46:48.840
the two-week commemoration
of Sebastião’s funeral.

00:46:48.840 --> 00:46:50.410
A memorial mass and procession

00:46:50.410 --> 00:46:53.410
were planned to lay flowers
on Sebastião’s grave.

00:46:53.410 --> 00:46:56.130
After the mass was held
at the Motael, people,

00:46:56.130 --> 00:46:58.300
young and old,
came out into the street,

00:46:58.300 --> 00:47:00.140
and in a land
where public speech

00:47:00.140 --> 00:47:02.760
and assembly had been
forbidden over a decade,

00:47:02.760 --> 00:47:04.760
they started chanting.

00:47:08.860 --> 00:47:11.590
The Timorese then held up
banners drawn on bed sheets.

00:47:11.590 --> 00:47:14.530
They had been prepared for
the delegation that never came.

00:47:14.530 --> 00:47:16.020
The banners called on Indonesia

00:47:16.020 --> 00:47:18.180
to leave East Timor
and said things like

00:47:18.180 --> 00:47:20.610
"Why the Indonesian army
shoot our church?"

00:47:20.610 --> 00:47:23.160
The Timorese were facing
a gauntlet of troops

00:47:23.160 --> 00:47:24.800
that stretched
the length of Dili.

00:47:24.800 --> 00:47:26.960
It was the boldest act
of public protest

00:47:26.960 --> 00:47:28.830
occupied Timor
had ever seen.

00:47:28.830 --> 00:47:31.570
ALLAN NAIRN: More and more
Timorese joined the procession.

00:47:31.570 --> 00:47:35.300
They came from huts and schools
and offices along the way.

00:47:35.300 --> 00:47:38.630
And there was this building
feeling of exhilaration,

00:47:38.630 --> 00:47:40.960
as well as fear,
among the Timorese.

00:47:40.960 --> 00:47:43.210
And when they reached
the cemetery,

00:47:43.210 --> 00:47:46.330
the crowd had swelled
to maybe 5,000 people.

00:47:46.330 --> 00:47:49.630
Some went inside to lay flowers
on Sebastião’s grave.

00:47:49.630 --> 00:47:51.300
Most of the crowd
was still outside.

00:47:51.300 --> 00:47:53.620
And then suddenly,
someone looked up,

00:47:53.620 --> 00:47:56.230
and we saw that marching up
along the same route

00:47:56.230 --> 00:47:58.500
that the Timorese had
come came a long

00:47:58.500 --> 00:48:00.450
column of Indonesian troops,

00:48:00.450 --> 00:48:01.870
dressed in brown,

00:48:01.870 --> 00:48:03.910
holding M16s
in front of them,

00:48:03.910 --> 00:48:06.990
marching in a very slow,
deliberate fashion,

00:48:06.990 --> 00:48:09.100
hundreds and hundreds of troops,

00:48:09.770 --> 00:48:11.600
coming straight at the Timorese.

00:48:11.600 --> 00:48:14.050
AMY GOODMAN: Allan suggested we
walk to the front of the crowd

00:48:14.050 --> 00:48:15.910
between the soldiers
and the Timorese,

00:48:15.910 --> 00:48:17.740
because although we knew
that the army

00:48:17.740 --> 00:48:19.220
had committed many massacres,

00:48:19.220 --> 00:48:21.100
we hoped that we,
as a foreign journalists,

00:48:21.100 --> 00:48:23.390
could serve as a shield
for the Timorese.

00:48:23.390 --> 00:48:25.230
Standing with headphones
on and microphone

00:48:25.230 --> 00:48:26.710
and camera out
in full view,

00:48:26.710 --> 00:48:28.510
we went and stood
in the middle of the road,

00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:30.590
looking straight at
the approaching troops.

00:48:30.590 --> 00:48:32.490
Behind us, the crowd was hushed

00:48:32.490 --> 00:48:34.470
as some Timorese
tried to turn away,

00:48:34.470 --> 00:48:36.890
but they were hemmed
in by cemetery walls.

00:48:36.890 --> 00:48:38.920
ALLAN NAIRN: The soldiers
marched straight up to us.

00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:40.710
They never broke their stride.

00:48:40.710 --> 00:48:43.290
We were enveloped by the troops,

00:48:44.020 --> 00:48:46.160
and when they got
a few yards past us,

00:48:46.160 --> 00:48:48.320
within a dozen yards
of the Timorese,

00:48:48.320 --> 00:48:51.140
they raised their rifles
to their shoulders all at once,

00:48:51.140 --> 00:49:00.830
and they opened fire.

00:49:00.830 --> 00:49:04.140
The Timorese, in an instant,
were down,

00:49:04.140 --> 00:49:05.850
just torn apart
by the bullets.

00:49:05.850 --> 00:49:09.190
The street was covered
with bodies, covered with blood.

00:49:09.190 --> 00:49:10.960
And the soldiers
just kept on coming.

00:49:10.960 --> 00:49:13.740
They poured in,
one rank after another.

00:49:13.740 --> 00:49:16.450
They leaped over the bodies
of those who were down.

00:49:16.450 --> 00:49:19.260
They were aiming and shooting
people in the back.

00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:21.390
I could see their limbs
being torn,

00:49:21.390 --> 00:49:22.990
their bodies exploding.

00:49:22.990 --> 00:49:25.760
There was blood spurting
out into the air.

00:49:25.760 --> 00:49:28.940
The pop of the bullets,
everywhere.

00:49:28.940 --> 00:49:31.340
And it was very organized,
very systematic.

00:49:31.340 --> 00:49:32.790
The soldiers did not stop.

00:49:32.790 --> 00:49:35.990
They just kept on shooting
until no one was left standing.

00:49:35.990 --> 00:49:38.550
AMY GOODMAN: A group of soldiers
grabbed my microphone

00:49:38.550 --> 00:49:41.130
and threw me to the ground,
kicking and punching me.

00:49:41.130 --> 00:49:43.330
At that point, Allan threw
himself on top of me,

00:49:43.330 --> 00:49:45.500
protecting me
from further injury.

00:49:45.500 --> 00:49:46.990
The soldiers
then used their rifle

00:49:46.990 --> 00:49:48.410
butts like baseball bats,

00:49:48.410 --> 00:49:50.460
beating Allan until
they fractured his skull.

00:49:52.000 --> 00:49:54.510
As we sat on the ground,
Allan covered in blood,

00:49:54.510 --> 00:49:55.980
a group of soldiers lined up

00:49:55.980 --> 00:49:58.420
and pointed their M16s
at our heads.

00:49:58.420 --> 00:50:00.210
They had stripped us
of all of our equipment.

00:50:00.210 --> 00:50:01.920
We just kept shouting,
"We’re from America!"

00:50:02.420 --> 00:50:04.760
In the end, they decided
not to execute us.

00:50:05.340 --> 00:50:07.570
ALLAN NAIRN: The soldiers
beat us, but we actually had

00:50:07.570 --> 00:50:08.850
received privileged treatment.

00:50:08.850 --> 00:50:10.710
We were still alive.

00:50:10.710 --> 00:50:12.750
They kept on firing
into the Timorese.

00:50:12.750 --> 00:50:16.790
We were able to get onto
a passing civilian truck,

00:50:16.790 --> 00:50:19.240
went into hiding,
but the Timorese,

00:50:19.240 --> 00:50:22.060
who had been with us
there on the cemetery road,

00:50:22.650 --> 00:50:25.100
most of them were dead.

00:50:25.100 --> 00:50:27.570
AMY GOODMAN: Inside the
cemetery walls, Max Stahl,

00:50:27.570 --> 00:50:29.400
a filmmaker on assignment
with Yorkshire

00:50:29.400 --> 00:50:31.560
TV, had had his video
camera running.

00:50:31.560 --> 00:50:34.790
MAX STAHL: The soldiers began
at that point to encircle

00:50:34.790 --> 00:50:36.660
the entire cemetery.

00:50:36.660 --> 00:50:40.200
I saw soldiers as they gradually
moved towards the middle,

00:50:40.200 --> 00:50:44.020
picking out people who were
wounded or taking refuge

00:50:44.020 --> 00:50:45.760
between the tombstones,

00:50:46.290 --> 00:50:48.500
and when they got to them,

00:50:48.500 --> 00:50:51.370
they beat them
and assembled them

00:50:51.370 --> 00:50:53.260
in the back of the cemetery.

00:50:53.830 --> 00:50:55.460
People were stripped
to their waists.

00:50:56.480 --> 00:50:59.250
They had their thumbs
tied behind their backs,

00:51:00.450 --> 00:51:02.450
and they were made
to look at the ground.

00:51:02.450 --> 00:51:05.690
And if they looked up,
they were immediately beaten,

00:51:05.690 --> 00:51:07.190
usually with a rifle butt.

00:51:07.190 --> 00:51:09.030
AMY GOODMAN: Max Stahl was
filming near a crypt

00:51:09.030 --> 00:51:10.300
in the middle of the cemetery.

00:51:10.300 --> 00:51:12.170
Some of the wounded
and those too scared

00:51:12.170 --> 00:51:14.690
to run were huddled
inside praying.

00:51:14.690 --> 00:51:17.920
As Stahl filmed, he buried his
videocassettes in a fresh grave.

00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:19.890
Then he was arrested
by the troops.

00:51:19.890 --> 00:51:21.420
MAX STAHL: Whilst I was
being interrogated,

00:51:21.420 --> 00:51:25.170
I observed these trucks
driving by

00:51:25.170 --> 00:51:28.930
with more people in them.

00:51:28.930 --> 00:51:33.090
These people were clearly
in a kind of paralysis of fear.

00:51:33.850 --> 00:51:36.920
They were not able to move.

00:51:36.920 --> 00:51:40.580
Some of them, at least
in the cemetery and, indeed,

00:51:40.580 --> 00:51:43.100
even in the trucks,
when I saw them going by,

00:51:43.100 --> 00:51:44.760
were barely breathing.

00:51:44.760 --> 00:51:49.350
When people are that terrified,
it’s quite often difficult

00:51:49.350 --> 00:51:51.190
to tell if they’re dead
or alive.

00:51:51.190 --> 00:51:52.610
AMY GOODMAN: After nine hours
in custody,

00:51:52.610 --> 00:51:55.200
Stahl went back to the cemetery
under cover of night,

00:51:55.200 --> 00:51:56.770
dug up his videocassettes

00:51:56.770 --> 00:51:58.720
and had them
smuggled out of the country.

00:51:58.720 --> 00:52:00.940
Allan Nairn and I had managed
to leave East Timor

00:52:00.940 --> 00:52:02.510
a few hours after the massacre.

00:52:02.510 --> 00:52:03.840
From a hospital on Guam,

00:52:03.840 --> 00:52:06.870
we reported what had happened
to dozens of newspapers, radio

00:52:06.870 --> 00:52:08.800
and television outlets
around the world.

00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:10.040
PACIFICA REPORT: 
From Washington,

00:52:10.040 --> 00:52:11.870
this is the Pacifica
report for Tuesday,

00:52:11.870 --> 00:52:13.770
November 12, 1991.

00:52:14.500 --> 00:52:16.550
A massacre in East Timor.

00:52:16.550 --> 00:52:18.300
Among those injured
were two journalists,

00:52:18.300 --> 00:52:20.490
including a news editor
of Pacifica

00:52:20.490 --> 00:52:22.580
station WBAI in New York.

00:52:22.580 --> 00:52:29.730
AMY GOODMAN: They beat me
and dragged me over

00:52:29.730 --> 00:52:32.740
and started slamming me
with rifle butts

00:52:33.570 --> 00:52:34.960
and kicks and punches,

00:52:35.560 --> 00:52:38.350
and then Allan jumped
on top of me,

00:52:38.350 --> 00:52:40.390
and they beat him very badly.

00:52:41.290 --> 00:52:42.890
But that was the least
of what they did.

00:52:43.940 --> 00:52:46.990
They opened fire on the people,

00:52:46.990 --> 00:52:48.760
and these were truly
defenseless people...

00:52:52.630 --> 00:52:53.870
MONTAGE OF WORLD NEWS FOOTAGE: 
When Indonesian troops

00:52:53.870 --> 00:52:55.600
opened fire on a crowd—This

00:52:55.600 --> 00:53:00.520
is CBC Radio—The massacre

00:53:00.520 --> 00:53:03.310
of 100 unarmed Timorese

00:53:03.310 --> 00:53:05.390
by the Indonesian
military—Photographs

00:53:05.390 --> 00:53:07.090
of the bloody massacre
during a fight

00:53:07.090 --> 00:53:13.240
for freedom—

00:53:13.240 --> 00:53:15.150
This is the CBS Evening News.

00:53:16.960 --> 00:53:18.610
AMY GOODMAN: In the face
of the massacre story,

00:53:18.610 --> 00:53:20.080
even Suharto’s longtime

00:53:20.080 --> 00:53:22.160
allies were compelled
to condemn the killings

00:53:22.160 --> 00:53:23.420
and came under public pressure

00:53:23.420 --> 00:53:25.450
to cut back their aid
to Indonesia.

00:53:25.450 --> 00:53:27.390
In Australia,
large crowds marched

00:53:27.390 --> 00:53:30.450
on the capital and surrounded
Indonesia’s local consulates.

00:53:30.450 --> 00:53:33.910
The European Parliament voted
for sanctions against Indonesia,

00:53:33.910 --> 00:53:36.420
and the European
community later canceled

00:53:36.420 --> 00:53:38.070
a scheduled trade pact.

00:53:38.070 --> 00:53:40.710
There were even open
protests inside Indonesia

00:53:40.710 --> 00:53:41.940
where student demonstrators

00:53:41.940 --> 00:53:43.310
were beaten and arrested.

00:53:43.910 --> 00:53:46.060
Back in the United States,
the Bush administration

00:53:46.060 --> 00:53:48.300
continued to ship weapons
to Indonesia.

00:53:48.300 --> 00:53:49.540
PRESS SECRETARY: 
Ladies and gentlemen,

00:53:49.540 --> 00:53:51.250
the President
of the United States.

00:53:51.250 --> 00:53:52.760
AMY GOODMAN: The only time
President Bush

00:53:52.760 --> 00:53:55.930
mentioned East Timor publicly
was months after the massacre,

00:53:55.930 --> 00:53:58.300
when asked about it
by a Portuguese journalist.

00:53:58.300 --> 00:54:00.480
PRESIDENT GEORGE H.W. BUSH: 
A lot of discussion is going on

00:54:00.480 --> 00:54:01.980
on the tragedy in East Timor.

00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:03.300
We have expressed ourself

00:54:03.300 --> 00:54:06.220
in terms of the pure
human rights part of it.

00:54:06.220 --> 00:54:08.710
We pride ourselves,
and I think properly so,

00:54:08.710 --> 00:54:10.100
in standing up
for human rights,

00:54:10.100 --> 00:54:12.930
and I think we’ve made
clear to the parties

00:54:12.930 --> 00:54:16.480
that are interested
there the U.S. position.

00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:17.330
I don’t know how it
will come out...

00:54:17.330 --> 00:54:18.710
AMY GOODMAN: That position:
to call for an increase

00:54:18.710 --> 00:54:20.570
in U.S. military training aid.

00:54:20.570 --> 00:54:22.970
It’s called IMET,
International Military

00:54:22.970 --> 00:54:24.320
Education and Training.

00:54:24.320 --> 00:54:26.780
More than 2,600
Indonesian officers

00:54:26.780 --> 00:54:29.650
have been trained under
IMET since 1975.

00:54:29.650 --> 00:54:31.910
They include those
who planned the invasion

00:54:31.910 --> 00:54:34.770
and have overseen
the policy of mass slaughter.

00:54:34.770 --> 00:54:37.610
Immediately after the massacre,
General Try Sutrisno,

00:54:37.610 --> 00:54:40.390
the National Commander
of the Indonesian Armed Forces,

00:54:40.390 --> 00:54:42.760
gave a speech
to a military gathering.

00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:44.000
He said of the Timorese

00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:46.850
who dared to oppose
the Indonesian Armed Forces,

00:54:46.850 --> 00:54:49.650
"They must be shot," adding,
"and we will shoot them."

00:54:49.650 --> 00:54:52.560
Listening to politicians is
something José Ramos-Horta

00:54:52.560 --> 00:54:54.490
has been doing for 17 years.

00:54:54.490 --> 00:54:56.900
He left East Timor
at the age of 25,

00:54:56.900 --> 00:54:58.700
just before Indonesia invaded.

00:54:58.700 --> 00:55:00.820
He had been sent
to the United Nations

00:55:00.820 --> 00:55:02.810
to plead East Timor’s case.

00:55:02.810 --> 00:55:05.660
While Ramos-Horta got out
of East Timor alive,

00:55:05.660 --> 00:55:07.820
much of his family
has been killed.

00:55:07.820 --> 00:55:12.140
JOSÉ RAMOS-HORTA: I lost one
sister and two brothers.

00:55:12.140 --> 00:55:15.640
The sister, she was 17
when she was killed,

00:55:15.640 --> 00:55:18.000
along with 20 other kids.

00:55:18.000 --> 00:55:21.980
Two Bronco aircraft
nosedive over a village

00:55:21.980 --> 00:55:25.220
and blew up the school

00:55:25.220 --> 00:55:27.620
and the 20 kids there.

00:55:27.620 --> 00:55:31.090
One brother was killed
when he was captured.

00:55:31.090 --> 00:55:33.470
Another, we don’t know
what exactly happened,

00:55:33.470 --> 00:55:36.470
but he disappeared
during a helicopter assault

00:55:36.470 --> 00:55:38.100
on my village, where he was.

00:55:38.100 --> 00:55:40.680
But like me, there are many,
many other families,

00:55:40.680 --> 00:55:42.590
and in fact,
some are even worse.

00:55:42.590 --> 00:55:46.860
I know families that were
totally wiped out,

00:55:46.860 --> 00:55:48.480
families that I knew,

00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:52.010
I grew up with,
that no longer exist.

00:55:52.010 --> 00:55:56.220
I know villages,
when all my youth I spent there,

00:55:56.220 --> 00:55:58.880
and when I ask survivors,

00:55:58.880 --> 00:56:02.570
I’m told that village
does no longer exist.

00:56:02.570 --> 00:56:03.660
It’s not on the map.

00:56:03.660 --> 00:56:06.390
So, this is the scale
of the tragedy

00:56:06.390 --> 00:56:08.800
that was imposed on East Timor,

00:56:08.800 --> 00:56:12.340
with U.S.A. complicity.

00:56:12.340 --> 00:56:14.010
AMY GOODMAN: How do you
hold out hope?

00:56:14.010 --> 00:56:16.530
You’ve been outside
the country for 17 years.

00:56:16.530 --> 00:56:18.020
You’ve been
the representative of East

00:56:18.020 --> 00:56:20.930
Timor at the United Nations
for more than a decade.

00:56:20.930 --> 00:56:22.860
What gives you any hope?

00:56:22.860 --> 00:56:26.440
JOSÉ RAMOS-HORTA: Well, the past
17 years that I’ve been engaging

00:56:26.440 --> 00:56:28.100
in diplomatic struggle,

00:56:28.100 --> 00:56:31.290
I also have witnessed—and
all of us

00:56:31.290 --> 00:56:35.410
witnessed—empires crumbling.

00:56:35.410 --> 00:56:38.380
No one thought possible
five years ago, 10 years ago,

00:56:38.380 --> 00:56:40.230
that the Soviet Union

00:56:40.230 --> 00:56:43.650
would disintegrate into
independent states,

00:56:43.650 --> 00:56:46.170
or Yugoslavia
or the Berlin Wall,

00:56:46.170 --> 00:56:48.390
democratization in Africa
and elsewhere.

00:56:48.390 --> 00:56:51.020
And Indonesia
will follow the same.

00:56:51.520 --> 00:56:54.850
It cannot escape
the train of democracy.

00:56:54.850 --> 00:56:58.200
But apart from that,
the resistance in East Timor

00:56:58.200 --> 00:57:01.350
is continuing at all levels
—armed resistance,

00:57:01.350 --> 00:57:05.400
one, but also cultural,
religious.

00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:07.500
The entire people
are mobilized.

00:57:07.500 --> 00:57:08.960
And we are very confident.

00:57:08.960 --> 00:57:12.110
I can state categorically,
in the next three,

00:57:12.110 --> 00:57:14.550
five years, six years,
maybe a bit longer,

00:57:14.550 --> 00:57:16.980
East Timor is going
to be independent.

00:57:18.370 --> 00:57:19.170
AMY GOODMAN: You’ve been
listening

00:57:19.170 --> 00:57:20.800
to an excerpt of Massacre:

00:57:20.800 --> 00:57:22.600
The Story of East Timor_.

00:57:22.600 --> 00:57:24.820
José Ramos-Horta
is now the president

00:57:24.820 --> 00:57:26.700
of an independent East Timor.

00:57:26.700 --> 00:57:28.000
Xanana Gusmão,

00:57:28.000 --> 00:57:30.960
the rebel leader imprisoned
by Indonesia for years,

00:57:30.960 --> 00:57:32.400
is the prime minister.

00:57:32.400 --> 00:57:34.540
To see the timor">full
documentary, Massacre:

00:57:34.540 --> 00:57:37.000
The Story of East Timor,
that journalist Allan Nairn

00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:39.670
and I produced on
the first anniversary

00:57:39.670 --> 00:57:40.950
of the massacre—the massacre

00:57:40.950 --> 00:57:42.190
took place November 12th,

00:57:42.190 --> 00:57:46.040
1991—you can go to our website
at democracynow.org.

00:57:46.040 --> 00:57:49.270
President Obama heads
to Indonesia later this week.

00:57:49.790 --> 00:57:52.120
AMY GOODMAN: We end today’s
broadcast in Oakland.

00:57:52.120 --> 00:57:54.400
As we broadcast,
reports are coming in,

00:57:54.400 --> 00:57:57.690
the Oakland Police Department
has surrounded Occupy Oakland.

00:57:57.690 --> 00:58:00.680
We turn now to KPFA
reporter John Hamilton.

00:58:00.680 --> 00:58:03.830
John, in 30 seconds, can you
tell us what’s happening?

00:58:03.830 --> 00:58:05.170
JOHN HAMILTON: Well,
Amy, very briefly,

00:58:05.170 --> 00:58:07.730
I’m standing at the intersection
of 14th and Broadway

00:58:07.730 --> 00:58:10.180
across from the Occupy
Oakland encampment,

00:58:10.180 --> 00:58:11.710
which is currently being raided

00:58:11.710 --> 00:58:14.310
for the second time
in its existence.

00:58:14.820 --> 00:58:16.670
Unlike last time,
when police came in

00:58:16.670 --> 00:58:19.530
with tear gas
and rubber bullets,

00:58:19.530 --> 00:58:21.800
this time they came in
in overwhelming numbers.

00:58:21.800 --> 00:58:23.990
They have not employed
those methods,

00:58:23.990 --> 00:58:26.500
but they have come in
as a small army.

00:58:26.500 --> 00:58:29.440
We know that between 700
and a thousand police are here.

00:58:29.440 --> 00:58:32.430
They are beginning
to make the first arrests

00:58:32.430 --> 00:58:34.370
in the Occupy
Oakland encampment,

00:58:34.370 --> 00:58:36.630
just before 6:00 local time.

00:58:36.630 --> 00:58:37.330
AMY GOODMAN: John Hamilton,

00:58:37.330 --> 00:58:38.630
we want to thank you
for being with us.

00:58:38.630 --> 00:58:40.180
We’ll keep people updated
throughout the day

00:58:40.180 --> 00:58:42.750
at our website,
democracynow.org.