WEBVTT

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From Pacifica,
this is Democracy Now!

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Colonel Carozza described
the conditions as, quote,

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"Auschwitz-like," end-quote.

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Oftentimes Afghan doctors
and nurses

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would demand bribes
in exchange for care.

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Those who cannot afford
to—afford to do so died

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in their hospital beds.

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An explosive
congressional investigation

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has revealed
horrific new details

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about a U.S.-funded
military hospital in Afghanistan

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that kept patients
in "Auschwitz-like" conditions.

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We’ll air shocking photos
from inside the hospital

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and speak with reporter
Michael Hastings.

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Then, the case of Army
Private Danny Chen,

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who allegedly took his own
life in Afghanistan

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after he was abused
by his fellow soldiers

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and superiors
on an almost daily basis

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in what’s been described
as racial hazing.

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His sergeant has been found not
guilty of negligent homicide,

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but sentenced to 30 days
in a military jail

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for lesser charges.

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I think the reputation of the
Army is definitely tarnished

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when they allow a convicted
sergeant for racial maltreatment

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to remain in the Army.

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And we’ll look at the fight
over the U.S. Postal Service.

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As Republicans push to
privatize the post office,

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the agency is bracing for
its first-ever default today.

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Unlike every other
governmental agency,

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the Postal Service
is now required to fund

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75 years of retiree
health benefits

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over just a 10-year span.

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We’ll speak with Ohio
Congressmember Dennis Kucinich

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and Chuck Zlatkin
of the postal union.

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People that most depend
upon the Postal Service,

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they’re elderly people,
disabled people,

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poor people
and small-business owners.

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They can’t afford
the alternatives.

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And the essayist,
playwright and novelist

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Gore Vidal has died
at the age of 86.

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All that and more,
coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

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The War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman.

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Syrian rebels are claiming
to be in control

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of more than half of Syria’s
largest city, Aleppo,

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after days of clashes
with government troops.

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The regime of Syrian
President Bashar

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al-Assad has offered
competing claims,

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saying it has forced
opposition fighters

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to retreat from key areas.
The fighting in Aleppo

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has driven tens of thousands
from their homes.

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At the United Nations,

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a spokesperson for the
High Commissioner for Refugees

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said Aleppo residents
are trapped

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between dangerous fighting
and perilous conditions

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should they try to flee.

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Melissa
Fleming: "We are particularly

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concerned about the continuous
raging armed violence

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that is now taking place
in Syria’s most populous city,

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Aleppo, where we are witnessing
and our partners are witnessing

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that thousands
of frightened residents

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are seeking shelter in schools,
mosques, public buildings.

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These are the people
who haven’t fled the city,

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haven’t had the means or feel

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that it’s too dangerous
to make that journey.

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We are getting indications
that the journey is wrought

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with armed gangs,
road blocks, blocking the way."

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Exiled Syrian activists have
announced a new opposition group

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seeking to form
a transitional government.

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The Council for the Syrian
Revolution marks a challenge

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to the larger
Syrian National Council,

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which was formed
nearly a year ago.

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At least 19 people were killed

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and more than 50 wounded
in Iraq on Tuesday

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when two car bombs
exploded in Baghdad.

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The bombings were followed
by a suicide attack

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on a police station

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in an attempt to free
al-Qaeda-linked prisoners.

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Iraq is coming off
one of its deadliest months

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since the withdrawal
of U.S. combat troops,

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with at least 237 people
killed and 603 wounded.

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A new government audit has found
the United States

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has wasted millions of dollars

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in poorly run reconstruction
projects in Afghanistan.

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A report from the U.S. inspector
general for Afghanistan

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says a "significant portion"

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of the $400 million
in infrastructure

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spending for Afghanistan
last year may be wasted

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"due to weaknesses in planning,
coordination and execution."

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The squandered projects
include U.S.-funded bases

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for the Afghan border police,

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many of which have
already been left abandoned.

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In one case,
Afghan officers left the base

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because it had no water supply.

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The report says Afghan projects
will require years

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of increased funding, warning:

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"The U.S. risks wasting
billions of dollars

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if U.S.-funded development
programs cannot be sustained,

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either by the Afghan government
or by continued donor support."

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The United States has imposed
a new round of sanctions

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targeting Iran.
On Tuesday, the White House said

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it would punish
more foreign banks

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that help sell Iranian oil
and would also extend penalties

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for those who buy
Iranian petrochemicals.

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Speaking on a visit to Egypt,
Defense Secretary Leon Panetta

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denied a recent report
that the Obama administration

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has shared contingency plans
for a military strike on Iran

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with the Israeli government.

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Leon Panetta: "We continue
to work together in the effort

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to ensure that Iran
does not reach

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that point of developing
a nuclear weapon.

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As with regards to any specific
plans, you know, we —

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I think it’s the wrong
characterization to say that

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we’re going to be discussing
potential attack plans.

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What we are discussing
are various contingencies

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and how we would respond."

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A federal judge has dealt a blow
to the Obama administration’s

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attempts to regulate
the controversial practice

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of mountaintop
removal coal mining.

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On Tuesday, U.S.
District Judge Reggie Walton

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ruled the Environmental
Protection Agency

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had exceeded its powers
and infringed

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on the authority
of state regulators

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when it strengthened guidelines
for the industry’s practice

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of dumping mining waste
into Appalachian waterways.

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The decision came after a coal
mining industry coalition,

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along with West Virginia
and Kentucky, sued the EPA.

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Illinois Gov. Pat Quinn
has unveiled a proposal

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to ban assault weapons
in his state.

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On Tuesday, Quinn used
his amendatory veto power

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to propose
banning the manufacture

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and sale of assault
weapons and attachments.

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Quinn is the first
U.S. governor

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to formally put forward
an assault weapons ban

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since the shooting massacre
in Aurora, Colorado, last month.

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The former chair of
the Republican Party in Florida

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has claimed top party
officials openly discussed

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suppressing the state’s
African-American vote.

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In a lengthy deposition

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submitted for his
ongoing corruption case,

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Jim Greer says
of a December 2009 meeting:

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"I was upset because
the political consultants

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and staff were talking
about voter suppression

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and keeping blacks from voting."
He continues:

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"They talked about not
letting blacks vote ...

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and minority
outreach programs

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were not fit for
the Republican Party."

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His comments come
amidst Florida’s standoff

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with the Justice Department
and civil rights groups

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over a voter purge
that critics say

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particularly targets
people of color.

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In recent weeks, at least two
top Republican state lawmakers —

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state Senator Glenn Grothman
in Wisconsin

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and Pennsylvania House
Majority Leader Mike Turzai

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— have predicted
that restrictive voter

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ID laws
will help Republican candidate

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Mitt Romney
win their states in November.

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Supporters of California’s
same-sex marriage

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ban have asked the Supreme

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Court to reverse
a federal appeals court decision

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that declared
the ban unconstitutional.

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California outlawed
same-sex marriage in 2008

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when voters passed the ban
known as Proposition 8.

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A three-judge panel struck down
the measure earlier this year,

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ruling that Prop 8

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"serves no purpose,
and has no effect,

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other than to lessen the status
and human dignity of gays

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and lesbians in California."
The request to the Supreme Court

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means the four-year battle
over Prop 8

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will likely be
resolved this year.

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In Texas, Tea
Party-backed candidate

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Ted Cruz has defeated Lt. Gov.
David Dewhurst in a runoff vote

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for the Republican
Senate nomination.

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Cruz had once been considered
a long-shot candidate

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but surged in the polls
to beat out

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Dewhurst, who had won
the backing of Texas Gov.

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Rick Perry.

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Congressional leaders
have reached a bipartisan deal

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on a budget

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to fund the government
through March of next year.

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The more than $1 trillion
proposal averts a budget

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showdown before
the November elections.

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The Democratic National
Committee has announced

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San Antonio Mayor Julián Castro
will give the keynote address

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at the party’s
September convention.

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Castro will be the first Latino
to keynote the DNC.

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India has restored
electric power

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across the country
after a massive outage

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that affected nearly half
its population of 1.2 billion.

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More than a dozen states
with about 670 million

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people were left
without power on Tuesday.

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It was the worst energy crisis
to hit India

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in more than a decade.

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The Inter-American
Court of Human Rights

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has handed down what advocates
are calling

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a milestone victory
for indigenous peoples.

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The court has sided
with Ecuador’s Sarayaku

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indigenous community
in a long-running dispute

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with the Ecuadorean government
and a foreign oil firm.

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In its ruling,
the court found Ecuador

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ignored the Sarayakus’ rights
by failing to consult with them

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before approving
a massive energy project

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on their ancestral land.

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In a statement,
Amnesty International said

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the ruling will have
"far-reaching effects"

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across the Western Hemisphere,
adding:

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"It makes it crystal clear that
states bear a responsibility

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to carry out
special consultation processes

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before engaging
in development projects

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affecting Indigenous Peoples
and their rights."

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In Russia, three members
of a feminist punk band

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are on trial this week

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and could face up
to seven years in prison

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for staging a church protest

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against Russian leader
Vladimir Putin.

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In February, five members
of the group Pussy Riot

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rushed before the altar
in one of Russia’s main

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Orthodox cathedrals
wearing dresses, tights

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and brightly
colored balaclavas.

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They danced, genuflected
and prayed

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to the Virgin Mary
to expel Putin,

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who is now serving a third stint
as Russia’s president.

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The three,
all in their twenties,

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have been in jail
for five months

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and could face up to seven years
on charges of "hooliganism

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motivated by religious
hatred or hostility."

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Two of the women
have small children.

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In a rally outside
the courtroom,

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a supporter of the band called
for their immediate release.

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Vitaly
Zalomov:

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"This is not a trial.
This is revenge.

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You see, the authorities
have reached a point

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where they don’t abide
by the law themselves.

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For a misdemeanor,
let’s face it,

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people are thrown into jail.

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And they’ve been holding them
there, young mothers,

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for half a year already."

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The trial comes amid fears
of an increasing

00:11:05.960 --> 00:11:08.010
crackdown on dissent in Russia.

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On Tuesday,
Russian investigators charged

00:11:10.600 --> 00:11:12.970
anti-corruption blogger
and activist

00:11:12.970 --> 00:11:15.370
Alexei Navalny
with embezzlement,

00:11:15.370 --> 00:11:18.660
a crime that carries a sentence
of up to 10 years in prison.

00:11:19.540 --> 00:11:23.360
The author Gore Vidal has died
at the age of 86.

00:11:23.360 --> 00:11:26.520
A national icon who authored
more than 20 novels

00:11:26.520 --> 00:11:29.010
and five plays,
Vidal was one of the best-known

00:11:29.010 --> 00:11:32.040
chroniclers of American history
and politics.

00:11:32.040 --> 00:11:34.000
He dedicated his work
to writing

00:11:34.000 --> 00:11:37.190
and critiquing the injustices
of U.S. society.

00:11:37.190 --> 00:11:40.190
In a 2004 appearance
on Democracy Now!,

00:11:40.780 --> 00:11:44.570
Vidal talked about the role
of democracy in the U.S.

00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:46.080
dating back
to the Constitution.

00:11:46.080 --> 00:11:47.340
Gore Vidal:

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"The word 'democracy' is not
only never mentioned

00:11:50.260 --> 00:11:52.590
in the Constitution
of the United States,

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but democracy was something
that the Founding Fathers hated.

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This is not generally known,
because it shouldn’t be known,

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but it is.

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I wrote a little book
about it called

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Inventing a Nation
that Yale published last year.

00:12:06.890 --> 00:12:10.260
“Our founders feared two things.
One was the rule of the people,

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which they thought
would just be a mess.

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And they feared tyranny,
which we had gone

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through King George III.
And so, they wanted a republic,

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a safe place
for men—white men—a property

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to do business in.
This is not ideal,

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but it’s better
than what we have.

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"So, here we are bringing
democracy to the poor Afghans,

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but only the real democracy,
of course, in the prisons,

00:12:35.100 --> 00:12:36.410
which we specialize
in everywhere

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and which—one interesting thing
that came out of all that mess

00:12:37.720 --> 00:12:38.950
was now the world knows
how we treat Americans

00:12:38.950 --> 00:12:40.180
in American prisons.
All that behavior,

00:12:40.180 --> 00:12:41.400
the humiliation
and the violence and so on,

00:12:41.400 --> 00:12:42.620
that is typical of not
so much—federal prisons,

00:12:42.620 --> 00:12:43.860
somewhat, but state prisons,
municipal prisons,

00:12:43.860 --> 00:12:45.070
detention centers.
This is the nation of torture.

00:12:45.070 --> 00:12:46.280
And those who disagree with me,
you can write an angry letter

00:12:46.280 --> 00:12:47.160
at this very moment,
if you can write at all.

00:12:47.160 --> 00:12:48.380
Sit down and write an angry
letter to the commander-in-chief

00:12:48.380 --> 00:12:49.200
and have him
examine the prisons."

00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:50.050
Amy Goodman:
"Well, on that note,

00:12:50.050 --> 00:12:51.310
I want to thank you very much
for being with us, Gore Vidal."

00:12:51.310 --> 00:12:52.540
Gore Vidal:
"I just barely started."

00:12:52.540 --> 00:12:53.770
Click here to watch all of
the interviews with Gore Vidal

00:12:53.770 --> 00:12:54.650
on Democracy Now!
over the years.

00:12:54.650 --> 00:12:55.880
And those are some of
the headlines this is Democracy

00:12:55.880 --> 00:12:57.100
Now, Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

00:12:57.100 --> 00:12:57.530
I’m Amy Goodman.

00:12:57.530 --> 00:12:58.760
AMY GOODMAN: The author Gore
Vidal has died at the age of 86.

00:12:58.760 --> 00:13:00.060
A national icon who authored
more than 20 novels, five plays,

00:13:00.060 --> 00:13:01.360
Vidal was one of the best-known
chroniclers of American history

00:13:01.360 --> 00:13:02.590
and politics.
He dedicated his work to writing

00:13:02.590 --> 00:13:03.790
and critiquing the injustices
of U.S. society.

00:13:03.790 --> 00:13:05.010
In a 2004 appearance
on Democracy Now!,

00:13:05.010 --> 00:13:06.230
Gore Vidal talked about
the role of democracy

00:13:06.230 --> 00:13:07.440
in the U.S. dating back
to the Constitution.

00:13:07.440 --> 00:13:08.640
GORE VIDAL: The word "democracy"
is not only never mentioned

00:13:08.640 --> 00:13:09.930
in the Constitution
of the United States,

00:13:09.930 --> 00:13:11.370
but democracy was something
that the Founding Fathers hated.

00:13:11.370 --> 00:13:12.740
This is not generally known,
because it shouldn’t be known,

00:13:12.740 --> 00:13:13.060
but it is.

00:13:13.060 --> 00:13:13.980
I wrote a little book
about it called

00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:15.220
Inventing a Nation
that Yale published last year.

00:13:15.220 --> 00:13:16.460
Our founders feared two things.
One was the rule of the people,

00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:17.350
which they thought
would just be a mess.

00:13:17.350 --> 00:13:18.590
And they feared tyranny,
which we had gone

00:13:18.590 --> 00:13:19.800
through King George III.
And so, they wanted a republic,

00:13:19.800 --> 00:13:21.080
a safe place for men—white men—a
property to do business in.

00:13:21.080 --> 00:13:22.300
This is not ideal, but it’s
better than what we have.

00:13:22.300 --> 00:13:23.590
So, here we are bringing
democracy to the poor Afghans,

00:13:23.590 --> 00:13:24.870
but only the real democracy,
of course, in the prisons,

00:13:24.870 --> 00:13:26.090
which we specialize
in everywhere

00:13:26.090 --> 00:13:27.600
and which—one interesting thing
that came out of all that mess

00:13:27.600 --> 00:13:28.900
was now the world knows
how we treat Americans

00:13:28.900 --> 00:13:30.180
in American prisons.
All that behavior,

00:13:30.180 --> 00:13:31.590
the humiliation
and the violence and so on,

00:13:31.590 --> 00:13:33.140
that is typical of not
so much—federal prisons,

00:13:33.140 --> 00:13:34.500
somewhat, but state prisons,
municipal prisons,

00:13:34.500 --> 00:13:36.180
detention centers.
This is the nation of torture.

00:13:36.180 --> 00:13:37.520
And those who disagree with me,

00:13:37.520 --> 00:13:38.920
you can write an angry letter
at this very moment,

00:13:38.920 --> 00:13:40.160
if you can write at all.
Sit down

00:13:40.160 --> 00:13:41.440
and write an angry letter
to the commander-in-chief

00:13:41.440 --> 00:13:42.660
and have him
examine the prisons.

00:13:42.660 --> 00:13:43.930
AMY GOODMAN: Well, on that note,
I want to thank you

00:13:43.930 --> 00:13:45.170
very much
for being with us, Gore Vidal.

00:13:45.170 --> 00:13:46.420
GORE VIDAL: I just
barely started.

00:13:46.420 --> 00:13:47.660
Click here to watch all of
the interviews with Gore Vidal

00:13:47.660 --> 00:13:48.930
on Democracy Now!
over the years.

00:13:48.930 --> 00:13:50.620
NERMEEN SHAIKH: A congressional
investigation has revealed

00:13:50.620 --> 00:13:52.860
a top U.S. general
in Afghanistan

00:13:52.860 --> 00:13:56.010
sought to stall
an investigation into abuse

00:13:56.010 --> 00:13:58.510
at a U.S.-funded
hospital in Kabul

00:13:58.510 --> 00:14:02.250
that kept patients in, quote,
"Auschwitz-like" conditions.

00:14:02.850 --> 00:14:06.950
Army whistleblowers revealed
photographs taken in 2010

00:14:06.950 --> 00:14:08.960
which show severely neglected,

00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:11.300
starving patients
at Dawood Hospital,

00:14:11.300 --> 00:14:14.640
considered the crown jewel
of the Afghan medical system,

00:14:14.640 --> 00:14:17.189
where the country’s
military personnel are treated.

00:14:17.800 --> 00:14:20.830
The photos show
severely emaciated patients,

00:14:20.830 --> 00:14:24.130
some suffering from gangrene
and maggot-infested wounds.

00:14:24.740 --> 00:14:27.370
For TV viewers of Democracy
Now!, please be warned:

00:14:27.370 --> 00:14:30.219
these images are extremely
graphic and may be disturbing.

00:14:31.070 --> 00:14:32.970
The general accused
of the cover-up

00:14:32.970 --> 00:14:35.050
is William Caldwell,
one of the nation’s

00:14:35.050 --> 00:14:37.310
highest-ranking commanders
in Afghanistan,

00:14:37.850 --> 00:14:39.470
who served as the commander
of the

00:14:39.470 --> 00:14:42.930
$11.2-billion-a-year
Afghan training program.

00:14:43.500 --> 00:14:46.040
Testifying before a subcommittee
of the House Oversight

00:14:46.040 --> 00:14:48.180
and Government Reform Committee
last week,

00:14:48.180 --> 00:14:50.390
one of the whistleblowers,
Colonel Mark Fassl,

00:14:50.390 --> 00:14:51.950
the former inspector general

00:14:51.950 --> 00:14:54.220
for the NATO
training mission in Afghanistan,

00:14:54.220 --> 00:14:56.200
explained General Caldwell’s
response

00:14:56.200 --> 00:14:57.960
to the initial call
for an inquiry

00:14:57.960 --> 00:15:00.410
into what was happening
at the hospital in Kabul.

00:15:01.250 --> 00:15:03.900
COL. MARK FASSL: His first
response to me was,

00:15:03.900 --> 00:15:06.520
"How could we do this
or make this request,

00:15:07.920 --> 00:15:09.760
with elections coming?"

00:15:10.530 --> 00:15:13.740
And then he made the really,
again,

00:15:14.630 --> 00:15:17.680
shocking comment
that he calls me Bill.

00:15:18.740 --> 00:15:20.030
REP. JASON CHAFFETZ: But what
does that mean?

00:15:20.030 --> 00:15:22.800
COL. MARK FASSL: Well, I took it
as that he was referring

00:15:22.800 --> 00:15:24.890
to the president
of the United States.

00:15:24.890 --> 00:15:26.910
REP. JASON CHAFFETZ: And that he
had a personal relationship?

00:15:26.910 --> 00:15:28.460
COL. MARK FASSL: I don’t know,
Chairman,

00:15:28.460 --> 00:15:29.880
if he had a personal
relationship,

00:15:29.880 --> 00:15:32.670
but the political pressure

00:15:32.670 --> 00:15:37.780
there was such that
he made those statements.

00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.130
NERMEEN SHAIKH: According to
the Oversight Committee,

00:15:41.130 --> 00:15:44.460
the United States has spent
over $180 million

00:15:44.460 --> 00:15:46.890
on operating medical sites
in Afghanistan,

00:15:46.890 --> 00:15:49.450
most of which is believed
to have gone to Dawood Hospital,

00:15:49.450 --> 00:15:52.780
where NATO personnel oversee
Afghan medical staff.

00:15:52.780 --> 00:15:54.880
Colonel Mark Fassl
also gave testimony

00:15:54.880 --> 00:15:57.780
describing the conditions
he witnessed at Dawood Hospital.

00:15:58.830 --> 00:16:00.660
COL. MARK FASSL: As we further
went into the hospital,

00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:04.660
we found that not only was there
no heat going into the winter,

00:16:04.660 --> 00:16:11.040
but there was a lack of hygiene,
soap—just, again, basic things

00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:16.520
that you would expect
a 250-bed hospital—of course,

00:16:16.520 --> 00:16:19.790
it was a 500-bed hospital,
but it was mainly being used

00:16:19.790 --> 00:16:24.770
as 250 beds—but, again,
the lack of hygiene and soap.

00:16:25.430 --> 00:16:29.720
And then, Ranking Member Tierney
read a very good description

00:16:29.720 --> 00:16:34.650
of what I saw
with the open vats of blood

00:16:34.650 --> 00:16:40.070
draining out of soldiers’
wounds, the feces on the floor.

00:16:41.600 --> 00:16:44.240
The other thing that caught
my attention was there

00:16:44.240 --> 00:16:49.010
were many family members
taking care of their loved ones,

00:16:49.840 --> 00:16:51.860
not hospital staff.

00:16:51.860 --> 00:16:53.850
AMY GOODMAN: The website
BuzzFeed,

00:16:53.850 --> 00:16:55.870
which first published
several of the Dawood Hospital

00:16:55.870 --> 00:16:57.080
photos last week,

00:16:57.080 --> 00:17:00.470
revealed Tuesday the Pentagon
has withheld key documents

00:17:00.470 --> 00:17:02.860
relating to abuses
at the hospital.

00:17:02.860 --> 00:17:04.250
To talk more about the cover-up,

00:17:04.250 --> 00:17:05.600
we’re joined
by Michael Hastings,

00:17:05.600 --> 00:17:07.890
contributing editor
at Rolling Stone,

00:17:07.890 --> 00:17:09.230
reporter for BuzzFeed,

00:17:09.230 --> 00:17:11.340
which has been following
the story closely.

00:17:11.340 --> 00:17:14.480
His book, The Operators:
The Wild and Terrifying Inside

00:17:14.480 --> 00:17:16.680
Story of America’s War
in Afghanistan,

00:17:16.680 --> 00:17:18.200
was published
earlier this year.

00:17:18.200 --> 00:17:19.450
Welcome back to Democracy Now!,
Michael.

00:17:19.450 --> 00:17:20.670
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Thanks
for having me.

00:17:20.670 --> 00:17:22.440
AMY GOODMAN: Tell us what’s
happened at the hospital,

00:17:22.440 --> 00:17:24.940
how you found out about it,
and then about the cover-up.

00:17:24.940 --> 00:17:26.180
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Sure.

00:17:26.180 --> 00:17:28.760
This was a hospital that was
started in 2005 in Kabul

00:17:28.760 --> 00:17:32.120
and funded almost completely
by the United States.

00:17:32.120 --> 00:17:34.950
And about a year ago,
the Wall Street Journal

00:17:34.950 --> 00:17:38.240
did an original story about
how a lot of these patients

00:17:38.240 --> 00:17:39.620
who were
at—these Afghan patients

00:17:39.620 --> 00:17:41.610
at the hospital were dying,

00:17:41.610 --> 00:17:44.970
essentially, from starvation,
from simple infections

00:17:45.750 --> 00:17:47.750
that should be treated
very easily

00:17:47.750 --> 00:17:51.810
but instead they were—actually
became mortal wounds.

00:17:52.690 --> 00:17:55.040
There were allegations that,
to get treatment,

00:17:55.040 --> 00:17:57.550
you had to bribe
the hospital officials.

00:17:57.550 --> 00:17:59.890
And so, there were
a number of Americans

00:18:00.820 --> 00:18:03.680
who were advisers there
who thought this was horrible,

00:18:03.680 --> 00:18:07.500
took a lot of these pictures,
brought them to the command,

00:18:07.500 --> 00:18:10.390
this General Caldwell,
and General Caldwell said,

00:18:10.390 --> 00:18:12.890
"I don’t want any of this
bad news getting out of here.

00:18:12.890 --> 00:18:14.500
I don’t want
an investigation.

00:18:14.500 --> 00:18:17.240
Let’s just, you know, try to
sweep this under the rug."

00:18:17.240 --> 00:18:20.400
Thankfully, the whistleblowers
continued—kind of ignored that,

00:18:20.400 --> 00:18:21.780
essentially, and went ahead,

00:18:21.780 --> 00:18:23.770
and that’s how we know
about this,

00:18:23.770 --> 00:18:27.070
because of this congressional
investigation into it.

00:18:27.070 --> 00:18:29.640
AMY GOODMAN: But this has been
going on now for years.

00:18:29.640 --> 00:18:33.570
And talk about just
who William Caldwell is

00:18:33.570 --> 00:18:36.140
and now what is
being done about this.

00:18:36.140 --> 00:18:38.350
It opened in 2005,
as you said.

00:18:38.350 --> 00:18:40.950
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Right, right.
So we know—we know for a fact,

00:18:40.950 --> 00:18:43.010
and he have it very well
documented now,

00:18:43.010 --> 00:18:46.370
that from period of 2010
to 2011 these abuses

00:18:46.370 --> 00:18:47.640
were certainly going on.

00:18:47.640 --> 00:18:50.620
From anecdotal evidence,
from people we’ve spoken to,

00:18:50.620 --> 00:18:53.820
we think that this was happening
before that, as well.

00:18:53.820 --> 00:18:57.180
General Caldwell is—was the head
of the $11.2-billion-a-year

00:18:57.180 --> 00:18:59.530
Afghan training mission.
At one time,

00:18:59.530 --> 00:19:03.300
he was the spokesperson
for the U.S. in Iraq.

00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:05.810
In fact, I spent many a day
next to General Caldwell

00:19:05.810 --> 00:19:08.030
in the Green Zone,
while he would sit next to me

00:19:08.030 --> 00:19:10.600
and tell us how great things
were going in Baghdad.

00:19:10.600 --> 00:19:13.390
And this was in 2006, 2007,
when things were really,

00:19:13.390 --> 00:19:14.700
really going horribly.

00:19:14.700 --> 00:19:16.070
Now, one of General Caldwell’s
things

00:19:16.070 --> 00:19:18.280
is he’s obsessed
with the idea of messaging.

00:19:18.280 --> 00:19:20.050
He’s obsessed
with public affairs.

00:19:20.050 --> 00:19:21.420
One of the things
he’s wanted to do

00:19:21.420 --> 00:19:22.860
is tear down
the traditional wall

00:19:22.860 --> 00:19:24.580
between public affairs
and information

00:19:24.580 --> 00:19:26.790
operations—which public affairs
are for the Americans,

00:19:26.790 --> 00:19:28.900
information operations are for
the enemy—and combine it into

00:19:28.900 --> 00:19:31.710
one sort of global strategic
communication strategy.

00:19:32.800 --> 00:19:35.880
So, when he was presented
with these allegations,

00:19:35.880 --> 00:19:38.030
these abuses, these photos,
this testimony,

00:19:38.830 --> 00:19:41.560
his response was,
"Well, how do we message this?

00:19:41.560 --> 00:19:42.950
You know, this is not
the kind of news

00:19:42.950 --> 00:19:44.880
we want to get out of here."

00:19:44.880 --> 00:19:48.540
And now General Caldwell is
the head of U.S. Army North,

00:19:49.310 --> 00:19:50.620
so he’s back
in the United States.

00:19:50.620 --> 00:19:52.140
And he’s in charge of—in case

00:19:52.140 --> 00:19:54.420
there’s a catastrophe
or martial law or whatever,

00:19:54.420 --> 00:19:56.060
he would be the guy
who would be in charge

00:19:56.060 --> 00:19:57.380
from the Army side of things.

00:19:57.380 --> 00:19:58.650
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
Michael Hastings,

00:19:58.650 --> 00:20:01.600
the spokesman, in fact,
for the place where he is now,

00:20:02.300 --> 00:20:06.750
in Fort Sam Houston,
in response to the inquiry,

00:20:06.750 --> 00:20:09.950
has said,
"I am sure that Lt. Gen.

00:20:09.950 --> 00:20:12.610
Caldwell would welcome
the opportunity to respond

00:20:12.610 --> 00:20:14.010
to any inquiry,

00:20:14.010 --> 00:20:16.640
and I’m confident that once
the facts are presented

00:20:16.640 --> 00:20:20.440
and examined, all allegations
will be proven to be false."

00:20:20.440 --> 00:20:22.070
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Right. That’s
Colonel Wayne Shanks, I believe—

00:20:22.070 --> 00:20:23.290
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That’s right.

00:20:23.290 --> 00:20:24.130
MICHAEL HASTINGS: —who
we’re quoting.

00:20:24.130 --> 00:20:24.510
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That’s right.

00:20:24.510 --> 00:20:25.710
MICHAEL HASTINGS: And
Wayne Shanks is one

00:20:25.710 --> 00:20:26.940
of those particular

00:20:26.940 --> 00:20:29.590
kind of—I’m trying to use a word
that’s not "moron" —

00:20:30.720 --> 00:20:33.260
within the sort of
military establishment,

00:20:33.260 --> 00:20:35.490
who essentially
is an attack dog.

00:20:36.200 --> 00:20:39.430
He has a history of saying
things that are just not true.

00:20:39.430 --> 00:20:41.600
And, you know,
I think it will be interesting

00:20:41.600 --> 00:20:43.860
to see what General Caldwell’s
side of the story is.

00:20:43.860 --> 00:20:49.080
What we know right now, we have
three U.S. Army colonels,

00:20:49.080 --> 00:20:50.410
three military colonels,

00:20:50.410 --> 00:20:52.740
who have testified
that General Caldwell

00:20:52.740 --> 00:20:54.760
decided not to—did
not want to investigate

00:20:54.760 --> 00:20:56.070
because of political pressure

00:20:56.070 --> 00:20:58.630
and because, as we were talking
about, this idea of bad news.

00:20:58.630 --> 00:21:01.410
Now, he will—what’s
going to happen,

00:21:01.410 --> 00:21:04.680
I think, if and when
General Caldwell does testify,

00:21:05.190 --> 00:21:06.790
he will come out
with a story that says,

00:21:06.790 --> 00:21:09.280
"Look, I actually wanted
to investigate this.

00:21:09.800 --> 00:21:12.630
Here are some emails
I sent a couple days—here

00:21:12.630 --> 00:21:14.190
are some emails
I sent saying this."

00:21:14.190 --> 00:21:16.670
Now, but the funny thing
is it’s going to show

00:21:16.670 --> 00:21:18.760
that the investigation
already started and then,

00:21:18.760 --> 00:21:22.520
to sort of cover his flank,
he sent these emails out.

00:21:22.520 --> 00:21:24.630
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Is he likely
to be called to testify?

00:21:24.630 --> 00:21:26.920
MICHAEL HASTINGS: We haven’t
been able to confirm that,

00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.930
but I would think that’s now
a likely possibility.

00:21:29.930 --> 00:21:32.580
AMY GOODMAN: Are there Americans
at Dawood Hospital now?

00:21:32.580 --> 00:21:35.160
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Yes, yes.
And the Pentagon—just yesterday,

00:21:35.160 --> 00:21:37.020
the Pentagon told us that things
had much improved there.

00:21:37.020 --> 00:21:38.240
I haven’t been there myself,

00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:40.060
so I can’t actually
confirm that.

00:21:40.060 --> 00:21:41.680
But throughout this entire time,

00:21:41.680 --> 00:21:45.340
there were about 20 to 25
different American advisers

00:21:45.340 --> 00:21:47.440
who would be at the hospital
on a regular basis.

00:21:47.440 --> 00:21:49.140
AMY GOODMAN: During last week’s
hearing,

00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:51.780
Democratic
Congressmember John Tierney

00:21:51.780 --> 00:21:54.440
asked retired Air Force
Colonel Schuyler Geller

00:21:54.440 --> 00:21:56.890
about who saw the conditions
in the hospital

00:21:56.890 --> 00:21:59.640
before those who decided
to blow the whistle.

00:21:59.640 --> 00:22:01.150
REP. JOHN TIERNEY: All the years
we’ve been in Afghanistan

00:22:01.150 --> 00:22:02.350
before you arrived,

00:22:02.350 --> 00:22:04.590
how many people
went through that hospital

00:22:04.590 --> 00:22:07.400
and saw those conditions
and said nothing?

00:22:10.480 --> 00:22:14.370
COL. SCHUYLER GELLER: Scores
of mentors and scores

00:22:14.370 --> 00:22:16.070
of general officers.

00:22:16.910 --> 00:22:18.590
AMY GOODMAN: Michael Hastings,
your response?

00:22:18.590 --> 00:22:19.860
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Yeah,
it’s sad.

00:22:19.860 --> 00:22:24.120
I mean, it’s tragic.
We have, like we said,

00:22:24.120 --> 00:22:27.760
$180 million going to this
hospital system right in Kabul.

00:22:28.380 --> 00:22:31.750
It’s the sort of jewel—it was
one of the stops

00:22:31.750 --> 00:22:35.460
along the parade of when,
you know, congressmen

00:22:35.460 --> 00:22:37.040
or generals would come in
and tour the country.

00:22:37.040 --> 00:22:39.740
This is the hospital
we’d show off to them.

00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:42.840
And it turns out that
what was going on here

00:22:42.840 --> 00:22:44.040
are the sort of abuses

00:22:44.040 --> 00:22:47.450
that—I have never seen
this kind of abuse,

00:22:47.450 --> 00:22:50.260
these sort of horrific pictures,
in my time covering these wars.

00:22:50.260 --> 00:22:53.440
There’s something particularly,
I think, upsetting about these,

00:22:53.440 --> 00:22:55.610
because they—it just
didn’t have to happen.

00:22:55.610 --> 00:22:57.920
You know, the fact that
you have Afghan patients,

00:22:57.920 --> 00:22:59.770
Afghan soldiers
who have been wounded,

00:22:59.770 --> 00:23:01.460
and they can’t even get food?

00:23:01.460 --> 00:23:04.930
That we’re supplying gasoline,
but the gasoline is being sold,

00:23:04.930 --> 00:23:08.120
so the generators don’t work,
so they’re living in—through

00:23:08.120 --> 00:23:09.800
these,
you know, sub—not sub-zero,

00:23:09.800 --> 00:23:11.550
but very,
very cold temperatures?

00:23:12.140 --> 00:23:14.160
You go down the list.
Selling drugs?

00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:18.000
Patients having surgery on them
without anesthesia,

00:23:18.000 --> 00:23:19.700
though we had provided
anesthesia?

00:23:20.400 --> 00:23:22.560
And so, I think it is quite
disturbing that all these people

00:23:22.560 --> 00:23:25.260
could go through there
and either not see it

00:23:25.260 --> 00:23:27.340
or have it hidden,
be hidden from them.

00:23:27.340 --> 00:23:28.800
NERMEEN SHAIKH: You’ve said
that the conditions there,

00:23:28.800 --> 00:23:30.030
from what you’ve seen

00:23:30.030 --> 00:23:32.180
of the pictures—have you seen
all 70 of the pictures?

00:23:32.180 --> 00:23:34.740
MICHAEL HASTINGS: No, there are
70—there are 70 pictures.

00:23:34.740 --> 00:23:37.390
We’ve seen—we’ve published
11 new pictures last week

00:23:37.390 --> 00:23:40.180
that hadn’t been out there,
but there’s a lot more to come.

00:23:40.180 --> 00:23:41.550
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And you’ve said
that conditions

00:23:41.550 --> 00:23:42.930
there are so horrific,

00:23:42.930 --> 00:23:44.600
on the basis
of what you’ve seen,

00:23:44.600 --> 00:23:48.860
that in fact Dawood Hospital
is Afghanistan’s Abu Ghraib.

00:23:48.860 --> 00:23:51.980
MICHAEL HASTINGS: I think one
can make a convincing case

00:23:51.980 --> 00:23:53.270
to say that,

00:23:53.270 --> 00:23:55.670
because, again, you have
a situation where, you know,

00:23:55.670 --> 00:23:58.880
the native population,
under our supervision,

00:23:58.880 --> 00:24:00.660
has been treated
particularly horribly.

00:24:00.660 --> 00:24:02.430
Obviously, in Abu Ghraib,
you had pictures where you had

00:24:02.430 --> 00:24:05.960
Americans in the frame
doing sort of ridiculous things.

00:24:05.960 --> 00:24:09.490
But there’s—but when people
really start to think

00:24:09.490 --> 00:24:12.130
about what the conditions
were like for these patients,

00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:14.780
right, that they—no real
medical supervision.

00:24:14.780 --> 00:24:17.579
Families were coming in,
roaming the halls at all hours.

00:24:19.490 --> 00:24:22.150
If you wanted surgery,
you had to pay a certain price.

00:24:22.150 --> 00:24:24.620
You know,
you had medical instruments

00:24:24.620 --> 00:24:26.420
sort of left within wounds.

00:24:26.420 --> 00:24:28.330
You had—I mean,
this is disgusting stuff—I know

00:24:28.330 --> 00:24:30.210
it’s early
in the morning—but maggots

00:24:30.210 --> 00:24:31.950
crawling out of bandages.

00:24:32.710 --> 00:24:35.830
Stuff that, you know,
just totally unacceptable.

00:24:35.830 --> 00:24:37.530
And we’re spending
$11.2 billion,

00:24:38.290 --> 00:24:40.800
and we can’t manage the one,

00:24:41.310 --> 00:24:45.500
you know, high-profile hospital
in the city.

00:24:45.500 --> 00:24:47.070
And it’s just—it’s
pretty upsetting.

00:24:47.070 --> 00:24:48.360
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Does the U.S.
fund other hospitals

00:24:48.360 --> 00:24:49.590
in Afghanistan, as well?

00:24:49.590 --> 00:24:50.800
MICHAEL HASTINGS: They do.
They do.

00:24:50.800 --> 00:24:52.020
And who knows
what’s going on there?

00:24:52.020 --> 00:24:53.630
I mean, I don’t want
to cast aspersions,

00:24:53.630 --> 00:24:55.500
but I think we know—and as,
you know,

00:24:55.500 --> 00:24:58.440
you mentioned the other report
about all the—how much money

00:24:58.440 --> 00:25:00.390
will be thrown away over there,
that one would assume

00:25:00.390 --> 00:25:01.860
that these sorts of things
are also going on.

00:25:01.860 --> 00:25:03.080
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn
to other news

00:25:03.080 --> 00:25:04.460
regarding your reporting.

00:25:04.460 --> 00:25:05.680
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Sure.

00:25:05.680 --> 00:25:07.950
AMY GOODMAN: According to
documents obtained by Truthout

00:25:07.950 --> 00:25:09.680
under the Freedom
of Information Act,

00:25:09.680 --> 00:25:12.770
senior officials at the
Department of Homeland Security

00:25:12.770 --> 00:25:15.860
tried to have you remove
a report you published

00:25:15.860 --> 00:25:18.720
on the Rolling Stone
magazine website in February

00:25:18.720 --> 00:25:23.230
about the agency’s role in
monitoring Occupy Wall Street.

00:25:23.230 --> 00:25:26.870
In an email message on the day
your piece was published,

00:25:26.870 --> 00:25:28.450
Caitlin Durkovich,

00:25:28.450 --> 00:25:31.410
chief of staff in DHS’s
National Protection

00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:33.690
and Programs Directorate,
wrote, quote,

00:25:33.690 --> 00:25:36.710
"I think we should consider
calling Hastings

00:25:36.710 --> 00:25:39.370
and help him understand
our mission," she said.

00:25:40.010 --> 00:25:41.520
The next day,
after other news outlets

00:25:41.520 --> 00:25:44.190
had picked up your story,
Durkovich wrote again to say,

00:25:44.190 --> 00:25:46.940
"I think we need to pick up
the phone, and call Hastings.

00:25:46.940 --> 00:25:49.840
National security is his beat,
but he can be provocative

00:25:49.840 --> 00:25:52.300
so we need to have a clear sey

00:25:52.300 --> 00:25:54.640
[sic] of tps,"
you know, talking points.

00:25:54.640 --> 00:25:57.970
"Let’s explain our mission,
to include what FPS’s"

00:25:57.970 --> 00:25:59.480
— the federal
protective service’s —

00:25:59.480 --> 00:26:03.470
"role has been in OWS. And
push back on the inaccuracies."

00:26:03.470 --> 00:26:05.360
Explain what took place.
Did they call you?

00:26:05.360 --> 00:26:07.040
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Well, I just
found out about this yesterday.

00:26:07.040 --> 00:26:08.400
I would have answered—

00:26:08.400 --> 00:26:09.640
AMY GOODMAN: I guess
they didn’t call.

00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:10.870
MICHAEL HASTINGS: They did
not call.

00:26:10.870 --> 00:26:12.800
I would have answered the call.
I would have been happy

00:26:12.800 --> 00:26:14.810
to actually talk to them
about this report,

00:26:14.810 --> 00:26:18.400
because it was quite a—what
I published online

00:26:18.400 --> 00:26:20.770
was a internal Department
of Homeland Security

00:26:20.770 --> 00:26:24.350
document that revealed
that they had been paying

00:26:24.350 --> 00:26:25.870
very close attention
to Occupy Wall Street,

00:26:25.870 --> 00:26:27.840
monitoring it,
monitoring social media,

00:26:27.840 --> 00:26:30.690
and kind of just explaining
what Occupy Wall Street was.

00:26:30.690 --> 00:26:33.960
So it was a fairly benign
report in a lot of ways,

00:26:33.960 --> 00:26:35.200
though it raised
some questions

00:26:35.200 --> 00:26:37.450
about why is Department
of Homeland Security,

00:26:38.020 --> 00:26:39.760
you know, analyzing
Occupy Wall Street?

00:26:39.760 --> 00:26:42.090
Now, it turns out,
also in these emails,

00:26:42.090 --> 00:26:43.580
it says that DHS want to say,

00:26:43.580 --> 00:26:45.430
"Look, we shouldn’t have
even done this report."

00:26:45.430 --> 00:26:48.240
So they actually wanted
to—they sort of agreed with me,

00:26:48.240 --> 00:26:50.570
while at the same time
there was about,

00:26:50.570 --> 00:26:52.270
I guess,
a hundred pages of emails

00:26:52.780 --> 00:26:54.440
deciding how they should respond

00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.760
to the Occupy—to our report
in Rolling Stone about it.

00:26:56.760 --> 00:26:59.030
AMY GOODMAN: But explain further
what this report is

00:26:59.030 --> 00:27:01.110
and where you got
the information that you got.

00:27:01.110 --> 00:27:03.590
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Well, so,
this came from the

00:27:03.590 --> 00:27:05.270
WikiLeaks Stratfor files dump.

00:27:05.270 --> 00:27:08.400
I don’t know if you remember
that the hacking group

00:27:08.400 --> 00:27:10.500
Anonymous hacked into this
private intelligence firm,

00:27:10.500 --> 00:27:14.460
Stratfor, and Assange
and the crew

00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:17.160
gave me access to this stuff.
This was in February.

00:27:17.160 --> 00:27:19.050
And I went through—and
I went looking through this.

00:27:19.050 --> 00:27:20.870
And one of the people
in Stratfor

00:27:20.870 --> 00:27:23.210
had access to this Department
of Homeland Security document.

00:27:23.210 --> 00:27:25.600
So we know
Stratfor was getting leaks

00:27:25.600 --> 00:27:27.320
from the Department
of Homeland Security.

00:27:27.320 --> 00:27:29.280
One of them was
this Occupy Wall

00:27:29.280 --> 00:27:32.430
Street analysis
or report on Occupy Wall Street.

00:27:32.960 --> 00:27:36.130
I thought it was very odd
to have a Department of Homeland

00:27:36.130 --> 00:27:39.270
Security report about
a peaceful protest movement.

00:27:39.270 --> 00:27:41.730
That raised
just normal alarm bells.

00:27:42.890 --> 00:27:44.930
And so—so that’s why
we did the report.

00:27:44.930 --> 00:27:47.100
But it was all for—but it was
actually a credit to the

00:27:47.100 --> 00:27:49.940
WikiLeaks guys who put
this stuff out there.

00:27:50.630 --> 00:27:53.020
I always find it—I guess,
as a journalist,

00:27:53.020 --> 00:27:55.010
one is supposed to be
probably somewhat flattered

00:27:55.010 --> 00:27:57.600
by the—how—you know,
as my editor at Rolling Stone

00:27:57.600 --> 00:27:58.880
put it yesterday,

00:27:58.880 --> 00:28:01.660
when the government
is trying to pad your file.

00:28:01.660 --> 00:28:04.650
And I think that that was
certainly the case here.

00:28:04.650 --> 00:28:06.460
They also brought their concerns
to the White House

00:28:06.460 --> 00:28:08.150
when they were trying
to come up with a statement.

00:28:08.150 --> 00:28:10.460
But clearly, allegations

00:28:10.460 --> 00:28:12.070
that the Department
of Homeland Security,

00:28:12.070 --> 00:28:14.250
that was spying
or monitoring Occupy Wall

00:28:14.250 --> 00:28:17.020
Street really hit a nerve
within—in Washington.

00:28:17.020 --> 00:28:19.170
AMY GOODMAN: They say the
Stratfor document wasn’t true.

00:28:19.790 --> 00:28:22.640
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Well, I think
that it was authentic.

00:28:22.640 --> 00:28:23.860
And as far as I can tell,

00:28:23.860 --> 00:28:25.270
they’re not disputing
the authenticity.

00:28:25.270 --> 00:28:26.510
AMY GOODMAN: Yes.

00:28:26.510 --> 00:28:27.720
MICHAEL HASTINGS: What
they’re disputing,

00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:28.920
as far as I can tell,

00:28:28.920 --> 00:28:31.770
is that they shouldn’t have—they
shouldn’t have done it,

00:28:31.770 --> 00:28:33.520
that DHS themselves
shouldn’t have done it.

00:28:33.520 --> 00:28:35.200
But they didn’t under—they
couldn’t figure out

00:28:35.200 --> 00:28:37.700
how Stratfor even got
the document to begin with.

00:28:37.700 --> 00:28:39.270
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, before we
conclude, Michael Hastings,

00:28:39.270 --> 00:28:41.020
I just wanted to ask you quickly

00:28:41.020 --> 00:28:44.520
about the three military
personnel,

00:28:44.520 --> 00:28:46.730
two of whom are retired,
of course,

00:28:46.730 --> 00:28:48.790
who have talked about what’s
happened at Dawood Hospital,

00:28:48.790 --> 00:28:52.500
whether they’re likely to face
any punitive consequences

00:28:52.500 --> 00:28:54.440
as whistleblowers?

00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:57.150
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Well,
I don’t think so, at this stage.

00:28:57.150 --> 00:28:58.810
You know, they’re colonels.

00:28:58.810 --> 00:29:02.040
Their careers, they’ve had—most
of them had pretty long,

00:29:02.040 --> 00:29:05.010
storied careers already.
One is a JAG lawyer anyway.

00:29:05.580 --> 00:29:08.290
So, in this case,
they seem very well protected

00:29:08.290 --> 00:29:11.450
from the sort of retaliation
that we’ve seen in the past.

00:29:11.450 --> 00:29:13.580
But, you know, look,
it’s not easy

00:29:14.390 --> 00:29:15.810
when you’re in the Army

00:29:15.810 --> 00:29:18.190
or in the military
to go in front of Congress

00:29:18.190 --> 00:29:20.240
and say,
"Look, a four-star—sorry,

00:29:20.240 --> 00:29:25.160
a three-star general is lying,"
you know, because there’s

00:29:25.160 --> 00:29:26.590
a lot of pressure
for them not to do that.

00:29:26.590 --> 00:29:28.020
So it’s quite impressive
that they have.

00:29:28.020 --> 00:29:29.320
And there are current—I should
point out,

00:29:29.320 --> 00:29:31.150
there are currently
two ongoing investigations

00:29:31.150 --> 00:29:33.160
into General Caldwell

00:29:33.160 --> 00:29:35.270
about his retaliation
against the whistleblowers

00:29:35.270 --> 00:29:37.070
and trying to get in the way
of the investigation.

00:29:37.070 --> 00:29:38.360
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That’s
the Military Whistleblower

00:29:38.360 --> 00:29:39.560
Protection Act
that you spoke of.

00:29:39.560 --> 00:29:40.790
MICHAEL HASTINGS: Yeah, exactly.

00:29:40.790 --> 00:29:42.230
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you
very much, Michael Hastings,

00:29:42.230 --> 00:29:44.230
for joining us.
We will link to the reports

00:29:44.230 --> 00:29:46.580
and the photos online
at democracynow.org.

00:29:46.580 --> 00:29:48.280
Michael Hastings,
contributing editor

00:29:48.280 --> 00:29:50.910
at Rolling Stone magazine,
reporter for BuzzFeed,

00:29:50.910 --> 00:29:53.530
which published
several of the photographs

00:29:53.530 --> 00:29:56.290
of the Dawood Hospital
never seen before.

00:29:56.290 --> 00:30:00.060
Michael’s book, The Operators:
The Wild and Terrifying Inside

00:30:00.060 --> 00:30:02.410
Story of America’s War
in Afghanistan,

00:30:02.410 --> 00:30:03.700
was published last year.

00:30:03.700 --> 00:30:05.860
This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

00:30:05.860 --> 00:30:07.070
The War and Peace Report.

00:30:07.070 --> 00:30:10.830
When we come back, we’re talking
mail, the post office.

00:30:10.830 --> 00:30:22.050
Stay with us.

00:31:30.230 --> 00:31:33.770
NERMEEN SHAIKH: For months,

00:31:33.770 --> 00:31:35.740
Americans have heard
dire warnings

00:31:35.740 --> 00:31:38.970
about the impending collapse of
the United States Postal Service

00:31:38.970 --> 00:31:42.890
due to fiscal insolvency.
Now, at midnight today,

00:31:42.890 --> 00:31:45.700
the agency is bracing
for its first-ever default

00:31:45.700 --> 00:31:48.090
on billions in payments
due to the Treasury.

00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:51.290
Although the Postal Service’s
inability to pay the

00:31:51.290 --> 00:31:53.560
five-and
-a-half-billion-dollar payment

00:31:53.560 --> 00:31:56.910
toward retiree health benefits
won’t immediately effect

00:31:56.910 --> 00:31:59.540
the Postal Service’s
day-to-day operations,

00:31:59.540 --> 00:32:01.950
it is likely to fuel
a fresh round of demands

00:32:01.950 --> 00:32:04.550
to examine the agency’s role
in America today.

00:32:05.150 --> 00:32:06.640
First-class mail volume,

00:32:06.640 --> 00:32:09.940
which has fallen 25 percent
since 2006,

00:32:09.940 --> 00:32:13.330
is projected to drop
another 30 percent by 2016.

00:32:13.850 --> 00:32:17.470
The agency faces a cash shortage
of $100 million

00:32:17.470 --> 00:32:20.650
this October stemming from
declining mail volume

00:32:20.650 --> 00:32:23.700
that could balloon
to $1.2 billion next year.

00:32:24.450 --> 00:32:26.990
The U.S. postmaster general,
Patrick Donahoe,

00:32:26.990 --> 00:32:30.920
has asked Congress to reduce the
financial burden on the agency

00:32:30.920 --> 00:32:32.730
and let it undergo
significant cuts

00:32:32.730 --> 00:32:35.750
to address the decline in mail
due to web transactions.

00:32:36.340 --> 00:32:39.910
Those cuts include
shedding some 150,000 jobs,

00:32:39.910 --> 00:32:42.080
the elimination
of Saturday delivery,

00:32:42.080 --> 00:32:45.230
and the closing of roughly half
the agency’s mail-processing

00:32:45.230 --> 00:32:48.930
facilities—measures largely
opposed by postal unions.

00:32:48.930 --> 00:32:50.320
Earlier this year,

00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:53.360
Donahoe said revamping
and consolidating the agency

00:32:53.360 --> 00:32:55.680
is a natural outcome
of changing times.

00:32:56.300 --> 00:32:57.610
POSTMASTER GENERAL PATRICK 
DONAHOE: We have to start making

00:32:57.610 --> 00:33:00.770
some changes as this volume
continues to go down.

00:33:00.770 --> 00:33:04.320
I was in Rockford the other day.
We have no volume there.

00:33:04.320 --> 00:33:07.660
We have—the volume
and the work hours that we use,

00:33:07.660 --> 00:33:09.390
the time that we use
our machines,

00:33:09.390 --> 00:33:12.720
can easily be absorbed
in a facility up the line

00:33:13.340 --> 00:33:15.930
with no problem,
no additional costs there,

00:33:15.930 --> 00:33:17.990
and then we take the people
who work in Rockford

00:33:17.990 --> 00:33:20.210
and find jobs for them
within our system.

00:33:20.210 --> 00:33:22.060
We’re very careful.
We haven’t hired anybody.

00:33:22.060 --> 00:33:25.900
We have plenty of landing spots.
It can be a very fair outcome

00:33:25.900 --> 00:33:27.610
for both customers
and employees,

00:33:27.610 --> 00:33:29.860
and allows us to get
these finances in order.

00:33:29.860 --> 00:33:32.870
AMY GOODMAN: But postal workers
say the much-touted crisis

00:33:32.870 --> 00:33:36.350
facing the U.S. Postal Service
isn’t what it seems.

00:33:36.350 --> 00:33:39.740
Rather, they point to a 2006 law
that forced the Postal Service

00:33:39.740 --> 00:33:43.760
to become the only agency
required to fund 75 years

00:33:43.760 --> 00:33:47.890
of retiree health benefits
over just a 10-year span.

00:33:47.890 --> 00:33:49.160
The American
Postal Workers Union

00:33:49.160 --> 00:33:50.360
says the law’s requirements

00:33:50.360 --> 00:33:53.230
account for 100 percent
of the service’s $20 billion

00:33:53.230 --> 00:33:55.590
in losses over
the previous four years,

00:33:55.590 --> 00:33:58.270
without which the service
would have turned a profit.

00:33:58.820 --> 00:34:01.670
In late June, 10 current
and former postal workers

00:34:01.670 --> 00:34:03.020
launched a hunger strike

00:34:03.020 --> 00:34:05.470
to protest
the pre-funding requirement.

00:34:06.360 --> 00:34:08.390
JAMIE PARTRIDGE: Well,
the problem is not about

00:34:08.390 --> 00:34:12.220
the mail volume going down,
and problem is not the internet.

00:34:12.220 --> 00:34:14.600
The problem is not
even private competition.

00:34:14.600 --> 00:34:17.990
The problem is
a pre-funding mandate

00:34:17.990 --> 00:34:23.410
that Congress imposed in 2006
that the Postal Service pre-fund

00:34:23.410 --> 00:34:27.400
retiree health benefits
75 years in advance.

00:34:27.400 --> 00:34:29.870
AMY GOODMAN: The Postal Service
had hoped that Congress

00:34:29.870 --> 00:34:32.620
would help defer
the payment that’s due today,

00:34:32.620 --> 00:34:33.970
but the House
has taken no action.

00:34:33.970 --> 00:34:36.570
The Senate passed a measure that
provided incentives to retire

00:34:36.570 --> 00:34:40.980
about 100,000 postal workers,
or 18 percent of its employees,

00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:44.200
and allowed the post office
to recoup more than $11 billion

00:34:44.200 --> 00:34:46.930
it overpaid into
an employee pension fund.

00:34:46.930 --> 00:34:50.460
The Senate declined to act
to stop Saturday deliveries.

00:34:50.460 --> 00:34:52.330
Well, for more, we’re joined now
by two guests.

00:34:52.330 --> 00:34:54.600
In Washington, D.C.,
we’re joined by Dennis Kucinich,

00:34:54.600 --> 00:34:56.320
Democratic Congress member
from Ohio,

00:34:56.320 --> 00:34:58.440
longtime supporter
of the U.S. Postal Service.

00:34:58.440 --> 00:35:00.670
Here in New York,
we’re joined by Chuck Zlatkin.

00:35:00.670 --> 00:35:02.300
He’s the legislative
and political director

00:35:02.300 --> 00:35:04.380
of the New York
Metro Area Postal Union.

00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:05.890
We welcome you both
to Democracy Now!

00:35:05.890 --> 00:35:09.440
Congressmember Dennis Kucinich,
explain how this has happened

00:35:09.440 --> 00:35:11.250
and what you think
needs to happen.

00:35:12.180 --> 00:35:14.530
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
Congress passed a law in 2006

00:35:14.530 --> 00:35:18.500
that mandated
that the Postal Service pre-fund

00:35:18.500 --> 00:35:19.750
its employees’

00:35:19.750 --> 00:35:25.650
health—its retirees’
health benefits for 75 years,

00:35:25.650 --> 00:35:27.500
but to do it
within a 10-year period.

00:35:28.120 --> 00:35:32.000
So, this $5.5 billion payment
that’s made today

00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:34.200
that the Postal Service
isn’t going to make,

00:35:34.740 --> 00:35:38.770
that Congress should correct,
is a manufactured crisis.

00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:42.590
Now, why would interests
what to manufacture a crisis?

00:35:43.130 --> 00:35:44.910
To further privatization.

00:35:44.910 --> 00:35:47.800
Who’s lobbying against
the post office on this?

00:35:47.800 --> 00:35:51.430
Banks, for one.
I mean, think about it.

00:35:51.430 --> 00:35:54.030
Banks would love to crush
the Postal Service,

00:35:54.030 --> 00:35:56.120
because they wouldn’t
have to process checks

00:35:56.120 --> 00:35:57.390
the way they do now, number one.

00:35:57.390 --> 00:36:02.760
Number two, banks would head off
any attempt for postal services

00:36:02.760 --> 00:36:04.660
to go into certain
banking functions

00:36:04.660 --> 00:36:07.600
such as they do
right now in the U.K.

00:36:07.600 --> 00:36:08.890
So this is—you know,

00:36:08.890 --> 00:36:10.410
the American people
have to wake up here

00:36:10.410 --> 00:36:12.560
about what’s happening
with the Postal Service.

00:36:12.560 --> 00:36:13.810
And, you know, finally,

00:36:13.810 --> 00:36:16.600
Amy, under the Constitution,
guess what?

00:36:16.600 --> 00:36:20.080
It’s Congress’s responsibility
to establish a postal service,

00:36:20.080 --> 00:36:24.430
Article I, Section 8, Clause 7.
And Congress is right now

00:36:24.430 --> 00:36:27.430
working on disestablishing
a postal system.

00:36:28.140 --> 00:36:30.290
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Are there other
groups, Congressman Kucinich,

00:36:30.290 --> 00:36:32.220
apart from
corporate interests,

00:36:32.220 --> 00:36:35.290
that are exerting pressure
on members of Congress

00:36:35.290 --> 00:36:36.950
for the privatization
of the Postal Service?

00:36:36.950 --> 00:36:38.200
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
you know,

00:36:38.200 --> 00:36:40.970
I can say, you know,
the—I would say that,

00:36:40.970 --> 00:36:44.340
let’s look who wins
if this happens.

00:36:45.070 --> 00:36:47.560
You know, if you start
to cut overnight deliveries,

00:36:47.560 --> 00:36:51.310
well, UPS and FedEx win.
So there are—you know,

00:36:51.310 --> 00:36:53.620
I can’t say
that they’ve lobbied me on this,

00:36:53.620 --> 00:36:55.690
but you can see who
the winners and losers are.

00:36:55.690 --> 00:36:57.880
And who loses?
The American people,

00:36:57.880 --> 00:37:00.410
because the whole concept
of the Postal Service,

00:37:01.070 --> 00:37:03.280
embedded in that is the idea
of universal service,

00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:06.770
that if you—that if you’re poor,
if you live in a rural area,

00:37:06.770 --> 00:37:09.730
you’re going to get served just
like someone who lives in a city

00:37:09.730 --> 00:37:10.940
and who may be wealthy.

00:37:10.940 --> 00:37:12.540
But this whole idea
of universality,

00:37:12.540 --> 00:37:15.270
which is a bedrock principle
of democracy,

00:37:15.270 --> 00:37:17.880
is about to go the way
of the dodo bird,

00:37:17.880 --> 00:37:20.470
because Congress has
manufactured a crisis

00:37:20.470 --> 00:37:22.150
with the passing
of the 2006 law

00:37:22.150 --> 00:37:25.250
and wants to compound
the crisis with other bills

00:37:25.250 --> 00:37:26.990
that would break union
contracts,

00:37:26.990 --> 00:37:30.610
restrict—move
to five-day delivery

00:37:30.610 --> 00:37:32.940
and create other reductions,

00:37:32.940 --> 00:37:36.120
so that you have a downward
spiral in the service model

00:37:36.120 --> 00:37:37.650
and would begin
the disintegration

00:37:37.650 --> 00:37:38.910
of the U.S. Postal Service.

00:37:38.910 --> 00:37:42.970
This is wrong, and it has to be
exposed for what it is: a fraud.

00:37:42.970 --> 00:37:44.310
AMY GOODMAN: Chuck Zlatkin,

00:37:44.310 --> 00:37:46.470
if you were to watch
the corporate networks,

00:37:46.470 --> 00:37:49.740
you would have no idea
about this special deal

00:37:49.740 --> 00:37:53.210
that was worked out
with the Postal Service to fund,

00:37:53.210 --> 00:37:56.990
over a 10-year period,
the pensions.

00:37:56.990 --> 00:37:58.300
You would have no idea that,

00:37:58.300 --> 00:38:01.460
otherwise, the Postal Service
would be in the black.

00:38:01.460 --> 00:38:04.440
What you hear is, "We had to say
goodbye to the telegraph.

00:38:04.440 --> 00:38:05.890
And, you know, with email,

00:38:05.890 --> 00:38:07.870
with all the different
kind of social media,

00:38:07.870 --> 00:38:10.990
we just don’t need
the post office anymore."

00:38:10.990 --> 00:38:12.250
Your response?

00:38:12.250 --> 00:38:15.490
CHUCK ZLATKIN: Well, I think
it’s an absurd argument.

00:38:15.490 --> 00:38:18.420
I mean, everybody who orders
something on their computer,

00:38:18.420 --> 00:38:20.040
they still haven’t
figured out a way

00:38:20.040 --> 00:38:22.440
to get the shirt
through the computer to you.

00:38:22.440 --> 00:38:24.320
It’s still delivered to you.

00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:28.410
And it may be true that people
aren’t writing letters

00:38:28.410 --> 00:38:29.990
to grandma the way
they used to,

00:38:29.990 --> 00:38:31.790
but everyone’s getting
their Netflix

00:38:31.790 --> 00:38:33.040
through the Postal Service.

00:38:33.040 --> 00:38:37.770
So, what hurt the post office
were factors that could have

00:38:37.770 --> 00:38:40.400
survived the electronic
alternatives.

00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:41.720
It would still be OK.

00:38:41.720 --> 00:38:44.560
Even with the economic
collapse of 2008,

00:38:44.560 --> 00:38:47.740
where, you know, businesses used
the Postal Service less,

00:38:47.740 --> 00:38:49.850
the Postal Service
would still be OK.

00:38:49.850 --> 00:38:52.610
It’s these
congressional mandates.

00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:55.650
But now, you know,
we’re talking about 2006,

00:38:55.650 --> 00:38:59.030
but we’re not
going back to 1971,

00:38:59.030 --> 00:39:01.110
when the Postal Service
was formed

00:39:01.110 --> 00:39:03.650
after the great postal
strike of 1970

00:39:03.650 --> 00:39:06.400
and postal workers
got collective bargaining.

00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:09.310
What happened then is that
the Postal Service

00:39:09.310 --> 00:39:13.110
had to pay into
the employees’ pensions.

00:39:13.110 --> 00:39:15.530
And there was a study
done in 2009

00:39:15.530 --> 00:39:19.110
by the inspector general
of the Postal Service

00:39:19.110 --> 00:39:22.950
that said the Postal Service
had overpaid $75 billion.

00:39:22.950 --> 00:39:26.840
In 2010, the Postal
Regulatory Commission

00:39:26.840 --> 00:39:29.170
commissioned their own study
that said,

00:39:29.170 --> 00:39:32.370
"Oh, it was only about
between $50 and $60 billion."

00:39:32.370 --> 00:39:34.460
So, in addition
to these overpayments

00:39:36.550 --> 00:39:40.140
since 2006 into the future
retirees’ health benefits,

00:39:40.140 --> 00:39:43.170
they’ve overpaid into
the pension funds for decades.

00:39:43.170 --> 00:39:46.070
The Postal Service
has been a cash cow

00:39:46.070 --> 00:39:47.820
for the government,
not vice versa.

00:39:48.680 --> 00:39:51.160
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Last week,
Peter Orszag,

00:39:51.160 --> 00:39:52.770
the former Obama administration

00:39:52.770 --> 00:39:55.240
Office of Management
and Budget director,

00:39:55.240 --> 00:39:58.020
wrote an opinion piece
for Bloomberg News called

00:39:58.020 --> 00:40:01.290
"Best Fix for Postal Service
Is to Take It Private."

00:40:01.800 --> 00:40:03.140
He wrote, quote,

00:40:03.140 --> 00:40:05.200
"Those who believe
in the usefulness of government

00:40:05.200 --> 00:40:07.040
must be vigilant
about making sure

00:40:07.040 --> 00:40:09.430
all its activities
are vital ones,

00:40:09.430 --> 00:40:13.020
since the unnecessary ones
undermine public confidence.

00:40:13.020 --> 00:40:15.790
With this in mind,
Congress should now privatize

00:40:15.790 --> 00:40:17.670
the U.S. Postal Service."

00:40:17.670 --> 00:40:20.070
Congressman Kucinich,
could you respond to that?

00:40:20.640 --> 00:40:21.930
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: That last
line, he said,

00:40:21.930 --> 00:40:23.150
"Congress should now privatize"?

00:40:23.150 --> 00:40:24.380
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Yes,
should privatize.

00:40:24.380 --> 00:40:25.590
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Is
that what he said?

00:40:25.590 --> 00:40:26.870
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Yes.

00:40:26.870 --> 00:40:28.130
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Boy,
what a revelation.

00:40:28.130 --> 00:40:29.570
This person worked
inside the White House.

00:40:29.570 --> 00:40:30.980
Think about that.

00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:33.190
I mean, we really have
a government

00:40:33.190 --> 00:40:36.830
that’s just going
to the highest bidder,

00:40:37.430 --> 00:40:39.140
which is all these
private interest groups

00:40:39.140 --> 00:40:40.670
that are hovering around
like vultures

00:40:40.670 --> 00:40:42.920
trying to pick off
a Postal Service

00:40:42.920 --> 00:40:45.470
which actually is one of
the strongest services

00:40:45.470 --> 00:40:47.540
that government
provides through,

00:40:49.130 --> 00:40:51.780
you know, people who are
involved in delivering mail.

00:40:52.690 --> 00:40:54.670
This really needs
to be challenged,

00:40:54.670 --> 00:40:57.170
because this is about
privatization at its core.

00:40:57.170 --> 00:41:01.060
So, thanks to Mr. Orszag
for being so candid about things

00:41:01.060 --> 00:41:02.790
that I’m sure he supported

00:41:02.790 --> 00:41:05.070
when he was one of
the president’s top advisers.

00:41:05.070 --> 00:41:06.980
So, you know,
we need to stand up

00:41:07.520 --> 00:41:10.890
for the whole principle
of government

00:41:10.890 --> 00:41:12.110
acting as a public service.

00:41:12.110 --> 00:41:14.320
Government is not there
to make a profit.

00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:15.570
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Congressman
Kucinich—

00:41:15.570 --> 00:41:17.500
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: It’s there
to provide a service.

00:41:17.500 --> 00:41:18.770
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Congressman
Kucinich,

00:41:18.770 --> 00:41:20.010
some people suggest, though,

00:41:20.010 --> 00:41:21.900
that some reform of
the Postal Service is necessary.

00:41:21.900 --> 00:41:23.120
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Of course.

00:41:23.120 --> 00:41:24.420
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Do you agree
with that?

00:41:24.420 --> 00:41:25.670
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Of course.

00:41:25.670 --> 00:41:28.390
You know, every institution
has to evolve.

00:41:28.390 --> 00:41:30.070
There’s no question about that.

00:41:30.070 --> 00:41:33.560
But to say—there’s a difference
between allowing an institution

00:41:33.560 --> 00:41:36.050
to evolve and grow,
and destroying it.

00:41:36.050 --> 00:41:37.760
And right now the attempt
is being made

00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:39.600
to destroy the Postal Service.

00:41:39.600 --> 00:41:41.620
This would impact
on all Americans.

00:41:41.620 --> 00:41:42.990
It would drive up
the cost of mail.

00:41:42.990 --> 00:41:45.460
I want everyone watching this
to think about what happens.

00:41:45.460 --> 00:41:47.090
If the Postal Service
is destroyed,

00:41:47.090 --> 00:41:49.070
what do you think
the cost of mail is going to be?

00:41:49.070 --> 00:41:50.460
What do you think
is going to happen

00:41:50.460 --> 00:41:52.800
when people who live
in the inner city,

00:41:53.320 --> 00:41:55.440
who may not—you know,
who may not have a job

00:41:55.440 --> 00:41:58.310
and may have difficulties being
able to survive day to day,

00:41:58.310 --> 00:42:00.020
how are they going to
communicate with each other?

00:42:00.020 --> 00:42:01.660
I mean, this is, like, unfair.

00:42:01.660 --> 00:42:05.080
It’s also going to be a disaster
for third-class mailers,

00:42:05.080 --> 00:42:07.330
because their costs are going
to go through the roof.

00:42:07.330 --> 00:42:10.370
I mean, there’s something—we
have to have a civics lesson

00:42:10.370 --> 00:42:14.210
here about the essentiality
of Postal Service delivery

00:42:14.210 --> 00:42:15.630
universally to people
in the country

00:42:15.630 --> 00:42:17.000
and what it means to them.
AMY GOODMAN: FedEx and—

00:42:17.000 --> 00:42:18.200
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: And this
is

00:42:18.200 --> 00:42:19.550
a good opportunity
to teach that.

00:42:19.550 --> 00:42:21.330
AMY GOODMAN: FedEx and UPS
must be excited,

00:42:21.330 --> 00:42:22.780
Congressman Kucinich.

00:42:22.780 --> 00:42:24.010
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
you know what?

00:42:24.010 --> 00:42:26.880
I don’t have any problem
with having alternatives,

00:42:26.880 --> 00:42:28.640
but you can’t use
those alternatives

00:42:28.640 --> 00:42:30.930
to try to destroy
what is the main service.

00:42:30.930 --> 00:42:32.630
And that’s what
I take issue with.

00:42:32.630 --> 00:42:35.380
And so, the idea that we should
just privatize everything?

00:42:35.380 --> 00:42:37.080
No, absolutely not.

00:42:37.690 --> 00:42:40.710
You know, they’re trying
to privatize the military,

00:42:40.710 --> 00:42:42.400
privatize
other government functions.

00:42:42.400 --> 00:42:44.000
Every time
you privatize something,

00:42:44.000 --> 00:42:45.540
the cost goes up to the public.

00:42:45.540 --> 00:42:47.250
It may profit
the private sector,

00:42:47.250 --> 00:42:49.500
but it certainly
doesn’t benefit the public.

00:42:49.500 --> 00:42:52.560
And the Postal Service is a
constitutional duty of Congress,

00:42:52.560 --> 00:42:54.690
and if Congress can’t do it,
those members who feel

00:42:54.690 --> 00:42:56.650
they can’t support
the Postal Service, well,

00:42:56.650 --> 00:42:59.620
they ought to get out of the way
and help those and permit

00:42:59.620 --> 00:43:02.080
those to come forward
who support the Postal Service.

00:43:02.080 --> 00:43:03.780
That’s Democrats
and Republicans alike.

00:43:03.780 --> 00:43:05.420
AMY GOODMAN: Your colleague,
at least for now,

00:43:05.420 --> 00:43:07.920
Republican Congressmember
Darrell Issa of California,

00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:10.530
chair of the House Oversight
and Government Reform Committee,

00:43:10.530 --> 00:43:11.750
has championed a bill

00:43:11.750 --> 00:43:14.930
that would allow for the phasing
out of around 150,000 jobs

00:43:14.930 --> 00:43:18.430
and facilitate a faster move
to five-day delivery.

00:43:18.430 --> 00:43:20.950
Last year, he explained
to the Heritage Foundation

00:43:20.950 --> 00:43:23.820
why he thinks revamping
the post office makes sense.

00:43:24.830 --> 00:43:26.370
REP. DARRELL ISSA: We’ll be
doing ourselves a favor,

00:43:26.370 --> 00:43:29.430
because we’ll be saving wages
we don’t need to be paying.

00:43:30.040 --> 00:43:33.260
And, yes, it does mean
there will be 200,000 people

00:43:33.260 --> 00:43:36.100
who will either be retired
or doing other work,

00:43:37.030 --> 00:43:38.910
in addition to the retirement,

00:43:38.910 --> 00:43:40.670
but that’s what Americans
are dealing with.

00:43:40.670 --> 00:43:42.430
Americans do not get
to keep a job

00:43:42.430 --> 00:43:45.360
just because they work
for the government.

00:43:45.360 --> 00:43:47.190
The private sector
doesn’t have that.

00:43:47.190 --> 00:43:49.000
If there’s a slowdown
at General Motors,

00:43:49.000 --> 00:43:50.230
you’re out on the street

00:43:50.230 --> 00:43:52.200
waiting to come back
when times are better.

00:43:52.200 --> 00:43:55.320
In the case of the post office,
this slowdown is permanent.

00:43:55.320 --> 00:43:58.100
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Republican
Congressmember Darrell Issa.

00:43:58.100 --> 00:44:00.190
Your response from the
other side of the aisle,

00:44:00.190 --> 00:44:01.450
Congressman Kucinich?

00:44:01.450 --> 00:44:02.660
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
Darrell Issa

00:44:02.660 --> 00:44:04.200
is a brilliant businessman.

00:44:04.200 --> 00:44:06.570
I mean, he—you know,
if we put Darrell Issa

00:44:06.570 --> 00:44:08.730
in charge
of the U.S. post office

00:44:08.730 --> 00:44:12.350
and had that as his charge
to help the post office survive,

00:44:12.350 --> 00:44:14.010
he’d figure out a way to do it.

00:44:14.010 --> 00:44:15.250
But he’s on
the other side of this.

00:44:15.250 --> 00:44:17.280
You know, he’s advocating
the cause of private business.

00:44:17.280 --> 00:44:18.950
OK, let’s look at that.

00:44:18.950 --> 00:44:21.030
But it’s not his decision
to make alone.

00:44:21.030 --> 00:44:24.290
We have to understand this
principle of universal service

00:44:24.290 --> 00:44:26.110
goes beyond corporate profit.

00:44:26.620 --> 00:44:29.170
It goes to the essence
of what a democracy is about.

00:44:29.170 --> 00:44:30.440
Think about it.

00:44:30.440 --> 00:44:34.070
Why did the founders put the
post office in the Constitution?

00:44:34.070 --> 00:44:35.420
I mean, really?

00:44:35.420 --> 00:44:38.040
You know, they were delivering
mail by horseback then.

00:44:38.040 --> 00:44:41.420
So, there’s—because there was
a thought about being able

00:44:41.420 --> 00:44:42.790
to move the commerce
of the country,

00:44:42.790 --> 00:44:44.020
and not only that,

00:44:44.020 --> 00:44:46.900
but to be able to help people
communicate with each other.

00:44:46.900 --> 00:44:48.350
That need is no less.

00:44:48.350 --> 00:44:49.910
Can the post office
update itself?

00:44:49.910 --> 00:44:51.170
Of course.

00:44:51.170 --> 00:44:53.610
But that’s not what the argument
is underpinning this.

00:44:53.610 --> 00:44:55.460
The argument is whether or not
the post office

00:44:55.460 --> 00:44:57.200
is going to survive
and whether it’s—or

00:44:57.200 --> 00:44:59.750
whether it’s going to be thrown
in a trash bin

00:45:00.350 --> 00:45:03.650
to be picked up
by corporate interests,

00:45:03.650 --> 00:45:07.240
who will get it for essentially
pennies on the dollar

00:45:07.240 --> 00:45:10.840
and then recapitalize it
to make hundreds of billions

00:45:10.840 --> 00:45:12.740
or trillions of dollars
in the long run.

00:45:12.740 --> 00:45:14.680
We cannot let that happen.

00:45:14.680 --> 00:45:16.880
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chuck Zlatkin,
before we conclude,

00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:18.960
I’d just like to ask
you—the post office

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:22.950
is the second-largest employer
in the U.S. after Wal-Mart.

00:45:22.950 --> 00:45:25.110
Can you say a little about
what—who

00:45:25.110 --> 00:45:27.320
would be—what communities
would be the most greatly

00:45:27.320 --> 00:45:29.590
impacted
by what happens tonight,

00:45:29.590 --> 00:45:31.470
if there is a decision taken?

00:45:31.470 --> 00:45:33.620
CHUCK ZLATKIN: Well, no one will
be impacted by tonight,

00:45:33.620 --> 00:45:35.780
because this is—they’re
just not making a payment

00:45:35.780 --> 00:45:37.870
that they don’t have to make
in the first place.

00:45:37.870 --> 00:45:40.730
Service will continue.
What will be used by tonight

00:45:40.730 --> 00:45:42.470
will be excuses
for the forces of privatization,

00:45:42.470 --> 00:45:44.060
the people who want to destroy
the Postal Service,

00:45:44.060 --> 00:45:45.550
to move forward with their plan.
But the people who most depend

00:45:45.550 --> 00:45:46.810
upon the service
are the elderly,

00:45:46.810 --> 00:45:48.090
poor people, the disabled,
small-business owners.

00:45:48.090 --> 00:45:49.060
They can’t afford
the alternative.

00:45:49.060 --> 00:45:49.990
It’s for them
that we’re fighting,

00:45:49.990 --> 00:45:50.960
because as far as the union
is concerned,

00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:51.940
if the people get the service
they deserve,

00:45:51.940 --> 00:45:53.140
there will be plenty
of jobs for us.

00:45:53.140 --> 00:45:54.360
The Postal Service isn’t
a make-work business.

00:45:54.360 --> 00:45:55.580
It’s an essential service
for the American people.

00:45:55.580 --> 00:45:56.430
AMY GOODMAN: 
Congressmember Kucinich,

00:45:56.430 --> 00:45:57.650
I wanted to ask you about
a couple other quick issues.

00:45:57.650 --> 00:45:58.890
In Texas, the Tea Party-backed
candidate, Ted Cruz,

00:45:58.890 --> 00:46:00.250
has defeated Lieutenant Governor
David Dewhurst in a runoff

00:46:00.250 --> 00:46:01.450
for the
Republican Senate nomination.

00:46:01.450 --> 00:46:02.730
Cruz had once been considered
a long-shot candidate

00:46:02.730 --> 00:46:03.940
but surged in the polls
to beat out Dewhurst,

00:46:03.940 --> 00:46:05.180
who had won the backing
of Texas Governor Rick Perry.

00:46:05.180 --> 00:46:06.410
Dewhurst was considered
conservative; Cruz,

00:46:06.410 --> 00:46:07.620
the Tea Party candidate.
The significance of this?

00:46:07.620 --> 00:46:07.980
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
you know,

00:46:07.980 --> 00:46:09.200
the Tea Party remains organized.
And who’s ever organized

00:46:09.200 --> 00:46:10.440
obviously has an advantage
in an election, allowing that

00:46:10.440 --> 00:46:11.670
the organization also is funded.
So, you know, the Tea Party

00:46:11.670 --> 00:46:12.610
is a powerful
force—can’t be denied.

00:46:12.610 --> 00:46:13.820
AMY GOODMAN: And your plans,
Congressmember Kucinich?

00:46:13.820 --> 00:46:14.740
You will be leaving
the Congress.

00:46:14.740 --> 00:46:15.520
What do you plan to do next?

00:46:15.520 --> 00:46:16.420
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
I—it’s a range of things.

00:46:16.420 --> 00:46:17.620
I mean, I’m accelerating
towards the finish line

00:46:17.620 --> 00:46:18.960
and just doing everything I can
to use the available time

00:46:18.960 --> 00:46:20.410
to keep championing the concerns
of the American people.

00:46:20.410 --> 00:46:21.630
But I’ve already established
an organization

00:46:21.630 --> 00:46:22.870
called Kucinich Action,
which is at KucinichAction.com,

00:46:22.870 --> 00:46:24.110
which will hold our political
activity as a constant factor

00:46:24.110 --> 00:46:25.380
in helping people organize
at all levels,

00:46:25.380 --> 00:46:26.610
but to keep our focus
also trained on matters of war

00:46:26.610 --> 00:46:27.820
and peace,
on jobs, on the environment.

00:46:27.820 --> 00:46:29.020
So, KucinichAction.com
is goign to be part

00:46:29.020 --> 00:46:30.220
of my political activity.
Beyond that,

00:46:30.220 --> 00:46:31.460
there’s a number of different
options I’m looking at.

00:46:31.460 --> 00:46:32.730
I’m really doing everything
I can to stay as focused on

00:46:32.730 --> 00:46:33.970
the duty at hand in Washington,
including, of course,

00:46:33.970 --> 00:46:35.190
trying to work with others
to save this Postal Service.

00:46:35.190 --> 00:46:36.120
AMY GOODMAN: 
Congressmember Kucinich,

00:46:36.120 --> 00:46:37.350
I want to thank you very much
for being with us.

00:46:37.350 --> 00:46:37.680
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Thank you.

00:46:37.680 --> 00:46:38.910
AMY GOODMAN: And Chuck Zlatkin
of the New York Metro Area

00:46:38.910 --> 00:46:40.250
[Postal] Union, thank you
very well—thank you very much

00:46:40.250 --> 00:46:41.620
for being with us, as well.
This is Democracy Now!,

00:46:41.620 --> 00:46:42.820
democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

00:46:42.820 --> 00:46:44.100
When we come back, we’re going
to cover the court-martial

00:46:44.100 --> 00:46:45.340
of those involved with the death
of Private Danny Chen

00:46:45.340 --> 00:46:46.280
and also go inside
a Broward jail

00:46:46.280 --> 00:46:47.110
to speak with a young activist

00:46:47.110 --> 00:46:48.320
who’s trying to find out
about immigrants inside

00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:49.270
who should not be deported.
Stay with us.

00:46:49.270 --> 00:46:49.760
AMY GOODMAN: Congressmember
Kucinich,

00:46:49.760 --> 00:46:50.990
I wanted to ask you about
a couple other quick issues.

00:46:50.990 --> 00:46:52.220
In Texas, the Tea Party-backed
candidate, Ted Cruz,

00:46:52.220 --> 00:46:53.430
has defeated Lieutenant Governor
David Dewhurst

00:46:53.430 --> 00:46:54.630
in a runoff for the
Republican Senate nomination.

00:46:54.630 --> 00:46:55.860
Cruz had once been considered
a long-shot candidate

00:46:55.860 --> 00:46:57.060
but surged in the polls
to beat out Dewhurst,

00:46:57.060 --> 00:46:58.270
who had won the backing of
Texas Governor Rick Perry.

00:46:58.270 --> 00:46:59.480
Dewhurst was considered
conservative; Cruz,

00:46:59.480 --> 00:47:00.700
the Tea Party candidate.
The significance of this?

00:47:00.700 --> 00:47:01.120
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
you know,

00:47:01.120 --> 00:47:02.330
the Tea Party remains organized.
And who’s ever organized

00:47:02.330 --> 00:47:03.270
obviously has an advantage
in an election,

00:47:03.270 --> 00:47:04.500
allowing that the organization
also is funded.

00:47:04.500 --> 00:47:04.830
So, you know,

00:47:04.830 --> 00:47:06.070
the Tea Party is a powerful
force—can’t be denied.

00:47:06.070 --> 00:47:07.270
AMY GOODMAN: And your plans,
Congressmember Kucinich?

00:47:07.270 --> 00:47:08.200
You will be leaving
the Congress.

00:47:08.200 --> 00:47:09.080
What do you plan to do next?

00:47:09.080 --> 00:47:10.330
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Well,
I—it’s a range of things.

00:47:10.330 --> 00:47:11.940
I mean, I’m accelerating
towards the finish line

00:47:11.940 --> 00:47:15.140
and just doing everything I can
to use the available time

00:47:15.140 --> 00:47:18.080
to keep championing the concerns
of the American people.

00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:21.360
But I’ve already established
an organization

00:47:21.360 --> 00:47:25.670
called Kucinich Action,
which is at KucinichAction.com,

00:47:25.670 --> 00:47:28.510
which will hold
our political activity

00:47:28.510 --> 00:47:32.330
as a constant factor in helping
people organize at all levels,

00:47:32.330 --> 00:47:35.930
but to keep our focus
also trained on matters of war

00:47:35.930 --> 00:47:40.100
and peace,
on jobs, on the environment.

00:47:40.100 --> 00:47:41.470
So, KucinichAction.com

00:47:41.470 --> 00:47:43.760
is goign to be part
of my political activity.

00:47:43.760 --> 00:47:45.680
Beyond that, there’s a number
of different options

00:47:45.680 --> 00:47:46.960
I’m looking at.

00:47:46.960 --> 00:47:49.020
I’m really doing everything
I can to stay

00:47:49.020 --> 00:47:53.630
as focused on the duty
at hand in Washington,

00:47:53.630 --> 00:47:55.280
including, of course,

00:47:55.280 --> 00:48:00.450
trying to work with others
to save this Postal Service.

00:48:00.450 --> 00:48:01.720
AMY GOODMAN: Congressmember
Kucinich,

00:48:01.720 --> 00:48:03.220
I want to thank you very much
for being with us.

00:48:03.220 --> 00:48:04.440
REP. DENNIS KUCINICH: Thank you.

00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:06.140
AMY GOODMAN: And Chuck Zlatkin
of the New York Metro Area

00:48:06.140 --> 00:48:07.420
[Postal]

00:48:07.420 --> 00:48:10.390
Union, thank you
very well—thank you very much

00:48:10.390 --> 00:48:11.700
for being with us, as well.

00:48:11.700 --> 00:48:13.640
This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

00:48:13.640 --> 00:48:14.910
The War and Peace Report.

00:48:14.910 --> 00:48:16.810
When we come back,
we’re going to cover

00:48:16.810 --> 00:48:18.670
the court-martial
of those involved

00:48:18.670 --> 00:48:21.130
with the death
of Private Danny Chen

00:48:21.130 --> 00:48:25.280
and also go inside
a Broward jail

00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.000
to speak with a young activist

00:48:27.000 --> 00:48:30.460
who’s trying to find out
about immigrants inside

00:48:30.460 --> 00:48:32.810
who should not be deported.
Stay with us.

00:50:11.000 --> 00:50:13.330
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now
to a DREAMer detained.

00:50:13.330 --> 00:50:14.570
In a Democracy Now!

00:50:14.570 --> 00:50:18.950
exclusive, we go now
to a DREAM activist, Martinez,

00:50:18.950 --> 00:50:21.760
who is calling us now
from a detention center

00:50:21.760 --> 00:50:23.590
in Pompano Beach, Florida.

00:50:23.590 --> 00:50:25.730
AMY GOODMAN: Viridiana Martinez
is one of a group

00:50:25.730 --> 00:50:27.080
of undocumented activists

00:50:27.080 --> 00:50:29.040
with the National
Immigrant Youth Alliance

00:50:29.040 --> 00:50:31.560
who have infiltrated
the Broward Transitional Center

00:50:31.560 --> 00:50:33.930
and found dozens of immigrants
who should be released

00:50:33.930 --> 00:50:36.430
under Obama’s
discretionary guidelines.

00:50:36.430 --> 00:50:39.680
A review of cases to remove
low-priority deportations,

00:50:39.680 --> 00:50:41.170
such as those
involving immigrants

00:50:41.170 --> 00:50:43.420
with no criminal records
and strong family ties,

00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:46.840
has so far stopped less
than 2 percent of removals.

00:50:46.840 --> 00:50:48.880
Viridiana Martinez,
welcome to Democracy Now!

00:50:48.880 --> 00:50:50.440
Describe where
you are right now.

00:50:50.440 --> 00:50:54.950
We just have a minute, but why
were you willing to be arrested

00:50:54.950 --> 00:50:58.380
and deported to find out what
was happening inside this jail?

00:50:59.680 --> 00:51:00.960
VIRIDIANA MARTINEZ: Yes, ma’am.
Good morning.

00:51:00.960 --> 00:51:05.740
I am at Broward detention center
right now

00:51:05.740 --> 00:51:07.440
talking to you on the phone.

00:51:08.020 --> 00:51:12.800
Basically, I have been—I allowed
myself to be detained,

00:51:13.860 --> 00:51:17.180
because we knew that—we
were getting phone calls,

00:51:17.180 --> 00:51:19.880
we were getting emails
from family members of people

00:51:19.880 --> 00:51:22.100
who had been picked up
and were,

00:51:22.100 --> 00:51:24.880
for months and months and months
and months, being held here.

00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:27.910
And we were taking
their cases from afar,

00:51:28.420 --> 00:51:31.710
creating online petitions for
them to stop their deportation.

00:51:32.740 --> 00:51:35.740
And after the many calls
and the many emails,

00:51:35.740 --> 00:51:39.060
we decided to come here
and see what was going on.

00:51:39.060 --> 00:51:42.970
And what we have found is,
like expected,

00:51:42.970 --> 00:51:47.440
that a majority of cases here
are low-priority cases

00:51:47.440 --> 00:51:50.830
that, according to President
Obama’s announcement last year,

00:51:52.420 --> 00:51:54.010
he was not going
to be departing.

00:51:54.010 --> 00:51:56.010
And yet, they’re
all being held here.

00:51:58.880 --> 00:52:01.540
AMY GOODMAN: Viridiana, are you
going to be deported?

00:52:01.540 --> 00:52:03.160
VIRIDIANA MARTINEZ: [inaudible]

00:52:03.160 --> 00:52:05.030
I mean,
[inaudible].

00:52:05.030 --> 00:52:09.440
You know, but it’s not—I think
that I’m pretty—I mean,

00:52:09.440 --> 00:52:11.730
based on, you know, the deferred
action announcement,

00:52:11.730 --> 00:52:14.780
I’m pretty safe, I would say.

00:52:14.780 --> 00:52:18.190
As for people that I—that
I came in here,

00:52:18.190 --> 00:52:20.190
the cases that I came in here
to expose

00:52:20.190 --> 00:52:23.870
are those people who, you know,
don’t have the spotlight.

00:52:23.870 --> 00:52:25.860
They’re not DREAMers.

00:52:25.860 --> 00:52:27.830
And, you know,
they’re the people

00:52:27.830 --> 00:52:30.360
who have been detained
for two-and-a-half years,

00:52:30.360 --> 00:52:34.000
for, you know,
over eight months now,

00:52:34.000 --> 00:52:38.800
for—you know, that are suffering
in terrible conditions.

00:52:38.800 --> 00:52:43.390
They clearly should be released,
and they’re not.

00:52:43.390 --> 00:52:44.850
They’re being held here.

00:52:44.850 --> 00:52:49.090
And this place is owned
by a private company, by GEO,

00:52:49.090 --> 00:52:53.120
and there is money being made
at the expense

00:52:53.120 --> 00:52:55.520
of—at the suffering
of these people.

00:52:55.520 --> 00:52:56.860
AMY GOODMAN: Viridiana Martinez,

00:52:56.860 --> 00:52:58.190
I want to thank you
for being with us,

00:52:58.190 --> 00:52:59.390
a DREAM activist

00:52:59.390 --> 00:53:01.160
with the National
Immigrant Youth Alliance,

00:53:01.160 --> 00:53:04.700
who got arrested and is inside
the Broward Transitional Center,

00:53:04.700 --> 00:53:07.400
got arrested on purpose
so that she could find out

00:53:07.400 --> 00:53:09.930
if others are there
who should be released.

00:53:10.510 --> 00:53:13.800
This is a private jail owned,
run by GEO.

00:53:13.800 --> 00:53:18.280
For a full interview with her,
you can go to democracynow.org.

00:53:18.280 --> 00:53:20.940
Democracy Now!'s Renée Feltz
does a half-hour interview

00:53:20.940 --> 00:53:22.990
to find out
what's happening in the jail.

00:53:23.510 --> 00:53:25.450
AMY GOODMAN: We turn now to
a major development

00:53:25.450 --> 00:53:27.390
in the case of Army
Private Danny Chen,

00:53:27.390 --> 00:53:29.610
who allegedly took its own life
just weeks

00:53:29.610 --> 00:53:32.530
after he was deployed
to Afghanistan last October.

00:53:32.530 --> 00:53:33.900
He was 19 years old.

00:53:33.900 --> 00:53:36.480
Chen’s family says
he was abused by his comrades

00:53:36.480 --> 00:53:38.990
and his superiors
on an almost daily basis,

00:53:38.990 --> 00:53:40.390
including racist hazing,

00:53:40.390 --> 00:53:41.870
with soldiers
throwing rocks at him,

00:53:41.870 --> 00:53:44.850
calling him ethnic slurs
and forcing him to do push-ups

00:53:44.850 --> 00:53:48.090
or hang upside down
with his mouth full of water.

00:53:48.090 --> 00:53:50.600
On Tuesday, the first of eight
U.S. soldiers

00:53:50.600 --> 00:53:52.570
court-martialed
in Chen’s death

00:53:52.570 --> 00:53:55.780
was sentenced to just 30 days
in a military jail.

00:53:55.780 --> 00:53:58.270
Sergeant Adam Holcomb
will also be allowed

00:53:58.270 --> 00:54:00.050
to remain in the service.

00:54:00.050 --> 00:54:02.360
On Friday,
he was found not guilty

00:54:02.360 --> 00:54:05.260
on the most serious offense
of negligent homicide,

00:54:05.260 --> 00:54:07.540
but was convicted
on lesser charges.

00:54:07.540 --> 00:54:09.110
This is Major Josh Toman,

00:54:09.110 --> 00:54:11.830
spokesperson for the XVIII
Airborne Corps.

00:54:12.420 --> 00:54:13.770
MAJOR JOSH TOMAN: He was
a sergeant,

00:54:13.770 --> 00:54:15.510
so now he’s been reduced

00:54:15.510 --> 00:54:17.560
out of the
non-commissioned officer ranks,

00:54:17.560 --> 00:54:23.410
and he was also—a
fine was imposed of $1,181.55

00:54:23.410 --> 00:54:26.750
per month for one month
and 30 days of confinement.

00:54:26.750 --> 00:54:29.430
And that was what
the panel returned.

00:54:29.430 --> 00:54:30.640
As the judge instructed them,

00:54:30.640 --> 00:54:33.960
they have discretion
to anything from no punishment

00:54:33.960 --> 00:54:36.190
up to the maximum,
a dishonorable discharge,

00:54:36.190 --> 00:54:39.640
two years and confinement
and total forfeitures.

00:54:39.640 --> 00:54:41.610
And that’s what the panel
arrived at based

00:54:41.610 --> 00:54:43.310
on their view
of the evidence.

00:54:44.010 --> 00:54:45.260
NERMEEN SHAIKH: During
the court-martial,

00:54:45.260 --> 00:54:47.400
the prosecutor showed pictures
of Private Chen

00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:49.550
with a bruised lower back
and a number of scratches

00:54:49.550 --> 00:54:53.030
from when Holcomb pulled him
off the top of a bunk bed

00:54:53.030 --> 00:54:54.850
and Chen fell to the floor.

00:54:54.850 --> 00:54:58.960
Holcomb had also been accused of
dragging him outside over rocks.

00:54:58.960 --> 00:55:00.680
Well, for more, we’re joined now
by two people

00:55:00.680 --> 00:55:01.970
who have just returned

00:55:01.970 --> 00:55:05.010
from watching Sergeant Holcomb’s
court-martial.

00:55:05.010 --> 00:55:07.970
Elizabeth OuYang has served
as a spokesperson

00:55:07.970 --> 00:55:10.150
for Private Danny
Chen’s parents.

00:55:10.150 --> 00:55:11.970
She is president
of OCA-New York,

00:55:11.970 --> 00:55:14.420
a civil rights organization
where she advocates for victims

00:55:14.420 --> 00:55:16.530
of hate crimes
and fair media representation

00:55:16.530 --> 00:55:19.610
for Asian Americans.
Also with us is Julia Chung,

00:55:19.610 --> 00:55:22.560
a volunteer working on Justice
for Private Danny Chen.

00:55:22.560 --> 00:55:24.180
She’s an incoming senior
at Vassar,

00:55:24.180 --> 00:55:25.500
where she’s a sociology major.

00:55:25.500 --> 00:55:27.730
Welcome, both of you,
to Democracy Now!

00:55:27.730 --> 00:55:29.370
Liz OuYang, can you talk
a little bit

00:55:29.370 --> 00:55:31.410
about the significance
of the acquittal

00:55:31.980 --> 00:55:34.430
on the most serious charge
of negligent homicide?

00:55:34.970 --> 00:55:36.910
ELIZABETH OUYANG: I think that
it shows

00:55:38.190 --> 00:55:40.030
that they’re trying to separate

00:55:40.740 --> 00:55:44.100
what they did to him
from him taking his life,

00:55:44.100 --> 00:55:47.240
when what they did to him
very much contributed

00:55:47.240 --> 00:55:48.940
to his taking his life.

00:55:49.930 --> 00:55:51.300
AMY GOODMAN: What’s happening
with the others?

00:55:51.300 --> 00:55:52.730
How many people
have been charged?

00:55:52.730 --> 00:55:54.930
Holcomb gets what?
Thirty days in jail?

00:55:55.470 --> 00:55:57.540
ELIZABETH OUYANG: Yes, 30 days
in jail, and more egregiously,

00:55:57.540 --> 00:56:00.210
he’s allowed to remain
in the military.

00:56:01.330 --> 00:56:03.950
Asian-American parents
are going to be petrified

00:56:03.950 --> 00:56:06.680
to send their sons and daughters
to serve in the Army

00:56:06.680 --> 00:56:16.030
with a sergeant who has been
convicted of racial treatment.

00:56:17.070 --> 00:56:20.620
And there were eight soldiers
charged in connection

00:56:20.620 --> 00:56:24.950
with his death.
We still have four more soldiers

00:56:24.950 --> 00:56:27.540
who have also been charged
with negligent homicide,

00:56:27.540 --> 00:56:34.420
plus two of
the higher-ranking officers

00:56:34.420 --> 00:56:37.380
who were aware of
what happened to Danny Chen

00:56:37.380 --> 00:56:38.650
and did nothing
to stop it.

00:56:38.650 --> 00:56:40.590
AMY GOODMAN: Julia, what were
you most struck by

00:56:40.590 --> 00:56:42.330
as you watched
this court-martial?

00:56:42.330 --> 00:56:43.760
JULIA CHUNG: I think what I was
most struck

00:56:43.760 --> 00:56:48.060
by was the lack of awareness
about Asian-American issues

00:56:48.060 --> 00:56:51.320
that the—even
the defense attorneys

00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:54.760
had
and the lower-ranking PFCs had,

00:56:54.760 --> 00:56:58.900
because when the witness
was on testimony,

00:56:58.900 --> 00:57:00.600
one of the witnesses said,

00:57:00.600 --> 00:57:02.880
"Oh, 'gook,' that’s a common
term for Asian Americans."

00:57:02.880 --> 00:57:04.170
And I was completely surprised.

00:57:04.170 --> 00:57:05.400
AMY GOODMAN: Who was that?

00:57:05.400 --> 00:57:07.780
JULIA CHUNG: He was a medic
for—he was the medic

00:57:07.780 --> 00:57:09.940
who treated
Private Danny Chen’s back.

00:57:09.940 --> 00:57:13.170
And he said that, "Oh, that’s
a common name, right?"

00:57:15.010 --> 00:57:18.110
He agreed that saying "chink"
was inappropriate,

00:57:18.110 --> 00:57:21.640
but saying words
like "dragon lady"

00:57:21.640 --> 00:57:25.780
and "fortune cookie"
and "egg roll" was OK.

00:57:25.780 --> 00:57:27.020
And it was just surprising—

00:57:27.020 --> 00:57:28.220
AMY GOODMAN: To call Danny Chen.

00:57:28.220 --> 00:57:29.420
JULIA CHUNG: Right, because
they said

00:57:29.420 --> 00:57:31.060
that it was just a nickname.

00:57:31.060 --> 00:57:33.650
And I was extremely surprised
by the fact that,

00:57:33.650 --> 00:57:36.620
while he himself
never called him that

00:57:36.620 --> 00:57:39.190
because he realized
that it was wrong,

00:57:39.190 --> 00:57:41.240
but the higher-level NCOs,

00:57:41.240 --> 00:57:43.250
they would—they were OK
with calling it.

00:57:43.250 --> 00:57:46.020
So it was really
just surprising to hear that.

00:57:46.020 --> 00:57:48.090
AMY GOODMAN: Liz OuYang,

00:57:48.090 --> 00:57:50.290
do you believe
Danny Chen committed suicide?

00:57:50.960 --> 00:57:53.010
ELIZABETH OUYANG: It’s
still unclear.

00:57:53.010 --> 00:57:57.310
You know, we have enlisted
the help of Dr. Henry Lee,

00:57:57.310 --> 00:58:01.250
world-renowned forensic expert,
to help us.

00:58:01.250 --> 00:58:02.550
AMY GOODMAN: Former
medical examiner.

00:58:02.550 --> 00:58:03.880
ELIZABETH OUYANG: Former
medical examiner.

00:58:03.880 --> 00:58:06.490
And, you know,
it’s still—in our minds

00:58:06.490 --> 00:58:07.850
and the minds of the parents,

00:58:07.850 --> 00:58:09.600
you know,
we’re not—we’re not sure.

00:58:10.910 --> 00:58:12.310
AMY GOODMAN: We will continue
to follow this story.

00:58:12.310 --> 00:58:16.000
I want to thank you,
Liz OuYang, president of OCA,

00:58:16.530 --> 00:58:19.010
which is the Organization
of Chinese Americans.

00:58:19.010 --> 00:58:45.140
Also, thank you to Julia Chung
for being with us.