WEBVTT

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From Pacifica,
this is Democracy Now!

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We are not that bad off here,

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but we all have an unemployed
brother or friend.

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Everyone says the same,

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that it was easy
to get a job before,

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even though it was a bad one,
and now you just don’t.

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Everyone is fed up with cuts
in healthcare—especially

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healthcare—education, evictions.

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People talk a lot about that.

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There’s a big anger
everywhere at the moment.

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From Spain
to Portugal to Greece,

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Italy, Belgium and France,

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a general strike sweeps Europe.

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Millions protest
spending cuts and tax hikes

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they say have deepened
the region’s economic crisis.

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We’ll get an update from Spain,

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where one out of four workers
is unemployed.

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Then the scandal

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that brought down CIA director

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David Petraeus spreads

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to the top U.S. commander
in Afghanistan.

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The president has put on
hold General Allen’s nomination

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as Supreme Allied
Commander Europe,

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pending the investigation
of General Allen’s conduct

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by the Department
of Defense.

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We’ll be joined by writer Glenn
Greenwald, now of The Guardian.

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He says the stars of America’s
national security establishment

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are being devoured by
out-of-control surveillance.

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Then, Noam Chomsky visits Gaza.

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It’s kind of amazing

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and inspiring to see people

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managing somehow to survive

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in—as

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essentially caged animals

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and subject to constant, random,

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sadistic punishment
only to humiliate them.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,

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democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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President Obama will
open deficit reduction

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talks on Friday with a call
for a $1.6 trillion

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tax hike on corporations

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and the wealthiest Americans
over the next 10 years.

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The figure is double
the total offered

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by House Republicans
during last year’s debt talks.

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On Tuesday, Democrats signaled

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they would reject
Republican calls

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to preserve the Bush tax cuts

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for top earners in exchange

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for removing deductions.

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It is unclear if Obama
will revive his previous

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willingness to raise
the retirement age

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to 67

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and cap benefit hikes
under Social Security.

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Obama and House
Speaker John Boehner

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are due to begin negotiations
Friday on averting

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the so-called fiscal cliff

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of expiring tax cuts

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and automatic
spending reductions set

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to take effect
at the end of the year.

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Speaking in Washington,
Treasury Secretary Timothy

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Geithner stressed the urgency
of reaching a deal.

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Timothy Geithner: "I know
the cliff is unattractive.

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It would cause a lot of damage
to the American economy.

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That damage is
eminently avoidable,

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not that complicated to solve.

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But be careful
about those who call,

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who argue for and urge for,

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’let’s just extend,

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while we debate,
while we negotiate.’

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That will leave
all the uncertainty

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you don’t like on the table,
but it will leave

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a different source
of uncertainty, which is:

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What’s going to give people
the incentive to come back

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and do something tough?"

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Millions of workers in Europe
have joined a general strike

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today protesting the wave
of spending cuts

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and tax hikes that has
swept the continent

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in the name of austerity.

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Spanish and Portuguese workers

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are coordinating their strike

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with work stoppages
also planned in Greece,

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Italy, France and Belgium.

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Closing arguments have ended
in the pretrial

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hearing to determine whether
U.S. Staff Sergeant Robert Bales

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will face a court-martial
for allegedly

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slaughtering
16 Afghan civilians,

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including nine children,
in March.

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Military prosecutors
are seeking the death penalty

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while defense attorneys
have argued that alcohol abuse,

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drug use and post-traumatic
stress disorder

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all may have played a key role

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in fueling Bales’ actions.

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The presiding officer says
he will issue a recommendation

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on whether to proceed
to court-martial

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by the end of the week.

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Deadly fighting in Syria
reportedly left at least

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63 people dead
across the country on Tuesday,

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including 41 in
the capital Damascus.

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Syrian tanks continued to shell

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the Palestinian refugee
camp of Yarmouk,

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which has seen heavy
violence this month.

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Meanwhile, France has become
the first Western country

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to recognize Syria’s newly
brokered opposition coalition

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as the sole representative
of the Syrian people.

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The coalition was formed
over the weekend

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at a summit in Doha.

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At least 24 people have been
killed and more than 100 wounded

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in a series
of bombings across Iraq.

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Multiple explosions
were reported

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in at least
four different areas,

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including Baghdad and Kirkuk.

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Israel and Palestinian leaders
in Gaza have agreed

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to a tacit truce

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following days violence
in the Gaza Strip.

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At least seven Palestinians,
including four civilians,

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have been killed
in Israeli attacks

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on Gaza since Saturday.

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Eight Israeli civilians
have also been wounded

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by Palestinian rockets.

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The temporary ceasefire

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was brokered by
the Egyptian government,

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but both sides say
they are prepared

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to resume attacks
if it fails.

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The United Nations General
Assembly has voted

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overwhelmingly to condemn
the U.S. embargo

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against Cuba for
the 21st year in a row.

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The final vote was 188-to-3,

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with only Israel
and the Pacific island

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state of Palau joining
the United States.

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U.S. envoy Ronald Godard
urged fellow General

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Assembly delegates
to reject the measure.

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Ronald Godard: "This resolution
only serves to distract

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from the real problems
facing the Cuban people,

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and therefore my delegation
will oppose it.

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We encourage this body
to support the desires

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of the Cuban people to determine
their own future freely.

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By doing so,

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it would truly advance
the principles

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of the United Nations
Charter and the purposes

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for which the United Nations
was created."

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Speaking
for the Cuban government,

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Cuban Foreign Minister
Bruno Rodríguez called

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on President Obama to break

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from decades
of U.S. isolation of Cuba.

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Bruno Rodríguez Parrilla:

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"President Obama
has an opportunity

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to start a new policy

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toward Cuba different

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from the one implemented

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by his 10 predecessors

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for more than half a century.

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It will surely be
a difficult task,

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and maybe he would face
serious obstacles,

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but the president
of the United States

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still has
the constitutional powers

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that would enable him

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to listen to public opinion

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and generate
the necessary dynamics

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by means of
executive decisions even

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without the approval
of Congress."

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Addressing the assembly
on behalf of Latin American

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and Caribbean states,

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Chilean envoy Octavio Guilisasti

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said overwhelming
U.N. opposition to the embargo

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reflects the consensus
of virtually the entire world.

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Octavio Guilisasti:
"We emphasize the inconsistency

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that exists between
the application

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of the unilateral measures

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which has no backing
in international law

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and the latter spirit
and principles

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and purposes of the Charter
of the United Nations.

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We urge the United States
of America

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to make the necessary
adjustments

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to its international behavior
in this regard,

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aligning its legislation

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with the Charter
of the United Nations,

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the resolutions of
the United Nations

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and the views of the countries
of Latin America

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and the Caribbean
and, in general,

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of all the regions
of the world."

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The United Nations
is warning that Haiti’s

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upcoming March harvest

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may already have been destroyed

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by the flooding
of Hurricane Sandy.

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Sandy left Haiti overrun
with devastating floods,

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causing widespread damage

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and adding thousands of people
to the massive numbers

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already displaced
by previous floods

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and the devastating
earthquake of January 2010.

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On Tuesday, U.N. relief
official Johan Peleman said,

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in addition to potentially
destroying March’s harvest,

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the new flooding
has led to a spike

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in waterborne disease.

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Johan Peleman: "The March
harvest may already be lost.

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This is why we urgently
are asking for money

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for people to go back
to the fields

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to start working

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those irrigation canals
that have —

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that need to be drained.

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Now that half the country
has been flooded,

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and water has in some areas —

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and we’re now 10 days
away from Sandy —

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some areas are still completely
inundated with water,

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and sanitation systems
broken or needing drainage,

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we obviously fear a new breakout

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of waterborne diseases,

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including spikes in cholera.

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Between the 28th of October

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and the 8th of November,

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we had 4,000 new cases,

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which is almost
double the average

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that we’ve seen for
the remainder of the year."

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New York Gov. Andrew Cuomo
has launched a commission

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to probe the role of state
utilities during major storms,

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including Superstorm Sandy

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and last year’s
Hurricane Irene.

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The 10-member panel
will investigate

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how the utilities
have prepared for the storms

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and how they have responded
when widespread damage ensued.

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Speaking at the partial
reopening of the Battery Tunnel,

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Cuomo said the commission’s
findings

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could lead to
a major regulatory overhaul.

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Gov. Andrew Cuomo: "Whatever
their recommendations are,

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I want to get back
with the Legislature

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in the beginning
of next year,

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incorporate them and come up
with a better system.

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Many of these systems
were failing, to begin with."

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One of the utilities
most highly criticized

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for its storm response

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was the Long Island
Power Authority, or LIPA.

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On Tuesday, LIPA’s acting CEO,

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Michael Hervey, resigned,

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effective at the end
of the year.

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Although power has been restored

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to hundreds of
thousands of people,

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more than 130,000 remain

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in the dark two weeks
after Sandy hit.

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Four men who say they were
tortured in U.S. prisons

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have filed a complaint
to the United Nations

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over Canada’s failure
to investigate

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and indict former
President George W. Bush

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during a speaking
appearance there last year.

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The four had unsuccessfully
sought to prosecute Bush

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when he appeared at
a Vancouver conference

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in October of 2011.

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The Canadian Centre
for International Justice

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and the New York City-based
based Center

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for Constitutional Rights

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say it is the first time
torture allegations

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against a high-level
U.S. official have been filed

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with the U.N. Committee
Against Torture.

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New data from the
Internet search firm

00:10:48.070 --> 00:10:51.150
Google shows online
government surveillance

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is increasing with
the U.S. government

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far surpassing
the rest of the world

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in requests for
information about users.

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More than a third
of the nearly 21,000

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requests for user data

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Google received

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in the first half of 2012

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came from the United States.

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In total,
during those six months,

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the United States
submitted nearly 8,000

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requests that applied to more
than 16,000 users or accounts.

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Google complied at least partly

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with 90 percent
of those requests.

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Both requests
for user information

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and requests by countries

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to remove online content

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have increased since 2009
when Google began its reports.

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In a blog post about the
report Tuesday, Google wrote:

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"This is the sixth time
we’ve released this data,

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and one trend has become clear:

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Government surveillance
is on the rise."

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And those are some
of the headlines

00:11:39.190 --> 00:11:41.820
this is Democracy Now,
Democracynow.org,

00:11:41.820 --> 00:11:43.140
the War and Peace Report.

00:11:43.140 --> 00:11:45.140
I’m Amy Goodman.

00:11:50.120 --> 00:11:51.730
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We begin
the show in Europe,

00:11:51.730 --> 00:11:53.720
where today millions of workers

00:11:53.720 --> 00:11:56.690
have joined a general strike
to protest spending cuts

00:11:56.690 --> 00:11:59.160
and tax hikes
they say have deepened

00:11:59.160 --> 00:12:01.080
the region’s economic crisis.

00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:03.340
Spanish and Portuguese workers

00:12:03.340 --> 00:12:04.810
are coordinating their strike

00:12:04.810 --> 00:12:07.200
with work stoppages
underway in Greece,

00:12:07.200 --> 00:12:08.830
Italy, France and Belgium.

00:12:09.430 --> 00:12:11.440
In Spain, one out
of four workers

00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:12.640
is unemployed,

00:12:12.640 --> 00:12:14.970
and protesters say
they’re furious at banks

00:12:14.970 --> 00:12:16.690
being rescued by the government

00:12:16.690 --> 00:12:18.540
while ordinary people suffer.

00:12:18.540 --> 00:12:21.830
NARCISA OSORIO: [translated]
Stop stealing,

00:12:21.830 --> 00:12:25.280
and do something useful,
but please do not steal from us.

00:12:25.280 --> 00:12:27.860
They are very needy people.
It’s a shame.

00:12:27.860 --> 00:12:30.170
It’s a shame to see
how they will leave the country.

00:12:30.170 --> 00:12:33.200
ISABEL RUBIO: [translated]
There are so many reasons

00:12:33.200 --> 00:12:34.430
behind today’s strike

00:12:34.430 --> 00:12:37.280
in all the society—the cuts,
the situation.

00:12:37.280 --> 00:12:38.950
And as far as Iberia
is concerned,

00:12:38.950 --> 00:12:42.640
it’s also the announcement made
that 4,500 jobs will go,

00:12:42.640 --> 00:12:44.660
and salaries
will be cut and so on.

00:12:44.660 --> 00:12:47.160
I think we have so many reasons.

00:12:47.740 --> 00:12:49.960
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Today’s strike
comes as most European

00:12:49.960 --> 00:12:52.530
governments have
cut pensions and benefits,

00:12:52.530 --> 00:12:54.730
while also raising taxes.

00:12:54.730 --> 00:12:56.880
This includes not just
the most financially

00:12:56.880 --> 00:12:58.840
troubled governments,
like Greece,

00:12:58.840 --> 00:13:00.480
but also more stable ones,

00:13:00.480 --> 00:13:02.190
like Britain and France.

00:13:02.190 --> 00:13:04.420
French Socialist
Prime Minister Jean-Marc

00:13:04.420 --> 00:13:06.180
Ayrault responded
to the strike

00:13:06.180 --> 00:13:08.650
saying officials face
tough challenges

00:13:08.650 --> 00:13:10.320
trying to control their debt.

00:13:10.320 --> 00:13:14.840
PRIME MINISTER JEAN-MARC 
AYRAULT: [translated]

00:13:14.840 --> 00:13:17.540
One must not forget that
we’re governing in a period

00:13:17.540 --> 00:13:20.240
that is extremely
difficult, in France,

00:13:20.240 --> 00:13:21.950
in Europe and in the world.

00:13:22.510 --> 00:13:24.930
And never since the 1950s
has a government had

00:13:24.930 --> 00:13:26.900
to face up to such difficulties.

00:13:26.900 --> 00:13:29.120
We are confronting them
with determination.

00:13:33.590 --> 00:13:35.340
What is essential
and what the president

00:13:35.340 --> 00:13:36.780
has said yesterday

00:13:36.780 --> 00:13:39.320
is that France
isn’t just any country;

00:13:39.320 --> 00:13:42.340
it is a great country
with a specific social model.

00:13:42.340 --> 00:13:44.960
Today, this social
model is in danger.

00:13:44.960 --> 00:13:49.100
There are many things
to correct, change and reform.

00:13:49.100 --> 00:13:51.440
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile in Spain,
the country’s General

00:13:51.440 --> 00:13:53.780
Workers’ Union said
today’s general strike

00:13:53.780 --> 00:13:56.520
is being observed
by nearly all workers

00:13:56.520 --> 00:13:58.270
in the automobile, energy,

00:13:58.270 --> 00:14:01.030
shipbuilding and
construction industries.

00:14:01.030 --> 00:14:03.780
This is union spokesperson
David Materiani.

00:14:03.780 --> 00:14:06.910
DAVID MATERIANI: [translated]
We are not that bad off here,

00:14:06.910 --> 00:14:10.000
but we all have an unemployed
brother or friend.

00:14:10.000 --> 00:14:11.360
Everyone says the same,

00:14:11.360 --> 00:14:12.910
that it was easy
to get a job before,

00:14:12.910 --> 00:14:15.640
even though it was a bad one,
and now you just don’t.

00:14:15.640 --> 00:14:18.530
Everyone is fed up with cuts
in healthcare—especially

00:14:18.530 --> 00:14:21.070
healthcare—education, evictions.

00:14:21.070 --> 00:14:22.330
People talk a lot about that.

00:14:22.330 --> 00:14:25.050
There’s a big anger
everywhere at the moment.

00:14:25.050 --> 00:14:26.380
AMY GOODMAN: This is the second

00:14:26.380 --> 00:14:28.200
general strike
this year in Spain.

00:14:28.200 --> 00:14:30.550
It comes after
a 53-year-old woman

00:14:30.550 --> 00:14:32.920
jumped from a balcony
to her death

00:14:32.920 --> 00:14:35.300
as she was about
to be evicted this weekend.

00:14:35.300 --> 00:14:37.210
The death of Amaia Egaña

00:14:37.210 --> 00:14:39.040
marked the second suicide

00:14:39.040 --> 00:14:41.810
in two weeks related
to evictions in Spain

00:14:41.810 --> 00:14:43.380
as a growing mass movement

00:14:43.380 --> 00:14:45.620
has put pressure
on the authorities to act.

00:14:45.620 --> 00:14:49.220
For more, we go to Madrid, where
we’re joined by María Carrión,

00:14:49.220 --> 00:14:51.730
independent journalist,
former Democracy Now! producer.

00:14:51.730 --> 00:14:54.470
Her latest piece is in
The Progressive magazine,

00:14:54.470 --> 00:14:56.710
called "Spaniards
Take On the Banks."

00:14:56.710 --> 00:14:58.950
María, welcome back
to Democracy Now!

00:14:58.950 --> 00:15:02.040
Start with the story
of this woman

00:15:02.040 --> 00:15:03.650
who committed suicide.

00:15:04.630 --> 00:15:06.100
MARÍA CARRIÓN: Hi, Amy.
It’s good to be with you.

00:15:07.280 --> 00:15:11.070
Amaia is a former city
council member in a town

00:15:11.070 --> 00:15:13.290
—the town of Barakaldo
in the Basque Country.

00:15:13.290 --> 00:15:15.310
And her case
is especially tragic

00:15:15.310 --> 00:15:18.260
because she actually
didn’t share

00:15:18.260 --> 00:15:20.840
just how bad off the situation

00:15:20.840 --> 00:15:22.900
was even with her husband.

00:15:22.900 --> 00:15:25.580
So, most people had no idea

00:15:25.580 --> 00:15:27.780
that there was a whole—there

00:15:27.780 --> 00:15:30.500
had been a repossession
and an eviction process.

00:15:31.820 --> 00:15:34.510
She was so desperate
and so ashamed of the situation

00:15:34.510 --> 00:15:36.770
that she jumped out
of her balcony,

00:15:36.770 --> 00:15:39.470
her fourth floor apartment,

00:15:39.470 --> 00:15:41.840
as court employees
came to evict her.

00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:47.410
This comes two weeks
after police found

00:15:47.410 --> 00:15:49.510
a man dead in his apartment

00:15:49.510 --> 00:15:51.400
as they went in to evict him

00:15:51.400 --> 00:15:53.880
from his home
after repossession.

00:15:54.400 --> 00:15:58.560
And—but, you know, the movement
to stop these evictions

00:15:58.560 --> 00:16:00.800
and repossessions has been
working very hard on this

00:16:00.800 --> 00:16:02.900
for almost two years,

00:16:02.900 --> 00:16:05.070
and this is just the watershed.

00:16:05.070 --> 00:16:09.130
This has been the one situation

00:16:09.130 --> 00:16:11.700
that has actually
forced government

00:16:11.700 --> 00:16:14.280
and the opposition and banks

00:16:14.280 --> 00:16:17.090
to come to the table
and talk about real reform.

00:16:17.090 --> 00:16:19.220
Before this,
you had these evictions

00:16:19.220 --> 00:16:21.320
taking place—500 orders

00:16:21.320 --> 00:16:25.180
every single day—silently.

00:16:25.180 --> 00:16:28.510
And thanks to
the 15M movement—this

00:16:28.510 --> 00:16:32.380
is—was the Occupy
movement in Spain

00:16:32.380 --> 00:16:35.610
just over a year ago
—the platform

00:16:35.610 --> 00:16:38.420
against evictions
was incredibly energized.

00:16:38.420 --> 00:16:40.960
And so, they have been able

00:16:40.960 --> 00:16:42.500
to stop hundreds of evictions.

00:16:42.500 --> 00:16:46.400
But those are evictions
of people who come to them

00:16:46.400 --> 00:16:49.720
and who say, you know,
"My home is being repossessed.

00:16:49.720 --> 00:16:51.120
I’m facing eviction.
Can you help me?"

00:16:51.120 --> 00:16:54.580
There are a lot of people
like Amaia who did not do this,

00:16:54.580 --> 00:16:58.310
out of perhaps a sense
of guilt or embarrassment.

00:16:58.310 --> 00:17:00.200
And so, her case

00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:04.390
is really representative
and emblematic

00:17:04.390 --> 00:17:08.420
of what has
gone wrong in Spain

00:17:08.420 --> 00:17:09.660
with, you know,

00:17:09.660 --> 00:17:11.520
thousands of people
being left homeless

00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:13.310
after repossession and eviction.

00:17:13.970 --> 00:17:16.010
NERMEEN SHAIKH: María Carrión,
can you also explain

00:17:16.010 --> 00:17:18.050
the particularity of Spanish law

00:17:18.050 --> 00:17:20.640
when it comes to home
repossession

00:17:20.640 --> 00:17:22.390
and debt repayment?

00:17:22.390 --> 00:17:26.200
In other words, even once
a house is repossessed,

00:17:26.200 --> 00:17:28.250
people are obliged
to pay back the debt?

00:17:29.000 --> 00:17:31.160
MARÍA CARRIÓN: That’s right.
The law dates

00:17:31.160 --> 00:17:34.220
back to the early 20th century,

00:17:34.220 --> 00:17:37.760
and it’s very much
of a pro-bank law,

00:17:37.760 --> 00:17:39.940
has never been looked
at or reformed.

00:17:39.940 --> 00:17:43.180
And I was at an eviction
of a family,

00:17:43.180 --> 00:17:45.020
or an eviction
attempt of a family,

00:17:45.020 --> 00:17:46.260
back in September,

00:17:46.260 --> 00:17:49.070
and basically it was—you know,
they were underwater.

00:17:49.070 --> 00:17:51.960
They had paid
about 300,000 euros

00:17:51.960 --> 00:17:53.680
for their apartment—I’m sorry,

00:17:53.680 --> 00:17:55.980
200,000 euros
for their apartment,

00:17:55.980 --> 00:17:59.320
and had paid 90,000
on the apartment,

00:17:59.320 --> 00:18:01.330
until they—both,

00:18:01.330 --> 00:18:04.490
the couple,
became—lost employment

00:18:04.490 --> 00:18:06.900
and couldn’t, you know,
make their payments.

00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:10.130
And after paying all
that money to the bank,

00:18:10.130 --> 00:18:11.990
they find themselves
in a situation

00:18:11.990 --> 00:18:13.710
where their home is repossessed

00:18:13.710 --> 00:18:15.740
and they owe more
than they paid,

00:18:15.740 --> 00:18:19.360
so now they owe 300,000 euros
to the bank on top of it.

00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.620
Once the home is repossessed
and you’re evicted,

00:18:23.620 --> 00:18:25.250
you still owe the full amount,

00:18:25.250 --> 00:18:26.830
and this includes,

00:18:26.830 --> 00:18:30.700
you know, fines,
late fees, you know,

00:18:30.700 --> 00:18:35.640
and you owe the value
of the home

00:18:35.640 --> 00:18:37.630
as it was before.

00:18:37.630 --> 00:18:39.270
So, in other words,
if you bought the house

00:18:39.270 --> 00:18:41.010
10 years ago
or eight years ago,

00:18:41.010 --> 00:18:43.610
the house was worth a lot
more than it is now;

00:18:43.610 --> 00:18:45.340
you’d owe the full amount.

00:18:45.340 --> 00:18:49.140
There are no procedures
to review these cases and,

00:18:49.140 --> 00:18:51.310
first of all,
to look at whether

00:18:51.310 --> 00:18:53.610
the—whether
the loan

00:18:53.610 --> 00:18:57.330
was made recklessly by banks.

00:18:57.330 --> 00:18:59.890
And a lot of these loans
were made very, very recklessly.

00:18:59.890 --> 00:19:03.300
People would go into the bank
to make a deposit,

00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:04.840
and the bank employee would say,

00:19:04.840 --> 00:19:06.100
"Hey, would you like
to buy a house?

00:19:06.100 --> 00:19:07.910
We can give you the loan,
and you can do it,

00:19:07.910 --> 00:19:10.540
and you don’t even have
to give us a down payment."

00:19:10.540 --> 00:19:13.270
A lot of these families
were immigrant families, too.

00:19:13.270 --> 00:19:15.190
And there was a whole movement

00:19:15.970 --> 00:19:18.850
to get immigrants

00:19:18.850 --> 00:19:21.800
to open up bank
accounts in Spain

00:19:21.800 --> 00:19:24.050
back when, you know,
Ecuadoreans and Colombians

00:19:24.050 --> 00:19:25.540
were moving to Spain,

00:19:26.280 --> 00:19:28.750
fleeing their own crises,

00:19:28.750 --> 00:19:31.360
economic crises
and the war in Colombia.

00:19:31.360 --> 00:19:34.960
They were lured into these
situations by the banks,

00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:37.960
who made these
irresponsible mortgages.

00:19:38.690 --> 00:19:40.340
And people thought that
they could pay them,

00:19:40.340 --> 00:19:42.770
because at the time
they seemed affordable.

00:19:42.770 --> 00:19:46.310
But a combination of
rising mortgage prices

00:19:46.310 --> 00:19:50.050
and the unemployment rate
being the way it

00:19:50.050 --> 00:19:53.370
is now has made it
so that, you know,

00:19:53.370 --> 00:19:56.010
thousands and thousands
and thousands of families

00:19:56.010 --> 00:19:58.500
are now unable to make payment.

00:19:58.500 --> 00:20:01.580
What has happened now
with these suicides—and

00:20:02.090 --> 00:20:03.300
there was a suicide attempt;

00:20:03.300 --> 00:20:04.770
someone tried to—they jumped

00:20:04.770 --> 00:20:07.320
out of their balcony
but, fortunately,

00:20:07.320 --> 00:20:09.600
were not killed
in the process—is

00:20:09.600 --> 00:20:12.590
that there is
a negotiation process

00:20:12.590 --> 00:20:14.310
going on between the government

00:20:14.310 --> 00:20:17.480
and the Socialist
opposition party.

00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:19.190
And in this negotiation,

00:20:19.190 --> 00:20:22.240
what they’re trying to do
is bring a stop to evictions,

00:20:22.240 --> 00:20:24.950
or least some evictions,
the ones that are—you know,

00:20:24.950 --> 00:20:27.690
that families
with no resources face,

00:20:27.690 --> 00:20:29.280
families who have children.

00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.470
Here, if you are put
on the street

00:20:32.470 --> 00:20:34.110
and you have children,
social services

00:20:34.110 --> 00:20:35.570
take away your children.

00:20:35.570 --> 00:20:36.800
And so, they’re trying to look

00:20:36.800 --> 00:20:39.840
at the most vulnerable people

00:20:39.840 --> 00:20:42.400
and trying to come up
with a moratorium,

00:20:42.400 --> 00:20:47.420
and also, for the—for everyone,
a renegotiation.

00:20:47.420 --> 00:20:49.790
There has been no due process

00:20:49.790 --> 00:20:51.350
at all for families.

00:20:51.350 --> 00:20:53.610
And a lot of the times,
the evidence that they have,

00:20:53.610 --> 00:20:55.260
the facts that—the information

00:20:55.260 --> 00:20:57.900
that they have is not
looked at by banks,

00:20:57.900 --> 00:20:59.180
when banks—
NERMEEN SHAIKH: María, could—

00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:00.580
MARÍA CARRIÓN: —make these
final decisions

00:21:00.580 --> 00:21:01.810
to repossess and evict.

00:21:01.810 --> 00:21:02.460
NERMEEN SHAIKH: María,
can you—can you

00:21:02.460 --> 00:21:03.290
talk a little bit about what—

00:21:03.290 --> 00:21:06.030
MARÍA CARRIÓN: And on top of it,
there is so much housing now,

00:21:06.030 --> 00:21:07.550
millions and millions—

00:21:07.550 --> 00:21:08.790
NERMEEN SHAIKH: María,
can you talk a little bit

00:21:08.790 --> 00:21:10.720
about what the scene was

00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:13.130
in Madrid—outside Bankia,
for example,

00:21:13.130 --> 00:21:18.330
a number of people now
facing eviction—and

00:21:18.330 --> 00:21:20.940
what the scene is in Madrid?
You were on the streets.

00:21:20.940 --> 00:21:22.570
What does it look like
in the midst

00:21:22.570 --> 00:21:24.620
of this general strike?

00:21:24.620 --> 00:21:26.510
MARÍA CARRIÓN: Well, you know,
several families have

00:21:26.510 --> 00:21:28.240
camped out now
for quite some time

00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:29.650
in front of Bankia,

00:21:29.650 --> 00:21:33.050
which is a—one of the big banks
that was bailed out.

00:21:33.050 --> 00:21:35.600
It was—you know,
former IMF director Rodrigo

00:21:35.600 --> 00:21:37.640
Rato was the head of Bankia.

00:21:37.640 --> 00:21:40.240
And they’re responsible for 80
percent of evictions in Madrid.

00:21:41.580 --> 00:21:43.410
And so, they’ve been
camping out now

00:21:43.410 --> 00:21:45.350
for a number of weeks
in front of Bankia,

00:21:46.250 --> 00:21:49.090
you know, having people
sign petitions

00:21:49.090 --> 00:21:51.480
to stop their own evictions
from taking place.

00:21:51.480 --> 00:21:54.630
They are now completely
surrounded by riot police.

00:21:54.630 --> 00:21:57.660
The 15M movement was
planning a demonstration

00:21:57.660 --> 00:21:59.960
leaving out of that
particular place.

00:22:00.760 --> 00:22:02.270
I don’t know if they
are able to do it now,

00:22:02.270 --> 00:22:05.660
because they are
so surrounded by riot police.

00:22:05.660 --> 00:22:07.750
There are a number
of demonstrations

00:22:07.750 --> 00:22:09.320
right now going on
on the streets.

00:22:09.320 --> 00:22:12.150
The big demonstration
is this evening at 6:00 p.m.,

00:22:12.150 --> 00:22:14.760
but the health workers
are marching now.

00:22:14.760 --> 00:22:17.190
Educational workers
are marching now.

00:22:17.190 --> 00:22:20.790
My local schools,
elementary and high schools,

00:22:20.790 --> 00:22:22.110
are completely on strike.

00:22:22.110 --> 00:22:24.490
There’s very few people
inside the buildings,

00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:26.450
and they have just in fact been

00:22:26.450 --> 00:22:28.620
surrounded by human chains.

00:22:29.320 --> 00:22:34.810
So, I think that the eviction
campaigns—the

00:22:34.810 --> 00:22:36.420
anti-eviction campaigns

00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:38.840
have crystallized
the movement.

00:22:38.840 --> 00:22:41.150
They—the 15M

00:22:41.150 --> 00:22:45.040
has put its resources
to work

00:22:45.040 --> 00:22:47.690
and its human power to work

00:22:47.690 --> 00:22:49.400
by stopping these evictions.

00:22:49.400 --> 00:22:52.060
And now it has reinvigorated

00:22:52.060 --> 00:22:53.650
social movements in Spain.

00:22:53.650 --> 00:22:56.600
Now you actually have
everybody marching together,

00:22:56.600 --> 00:22:58.510
where before, you know,
these strikes

00:22:58.510 --> 00:23:02.180
would only attract union members
or certain union members.

00:23:02.180 --> 00:23:05.110
Now you have everyone
on the street—the unemployed,

00:23:05.110 --> 00:23:06.330
families,

00:23:06.330 --> 00:23:07.710
people who are working

00:23:07.710 --> 00:23:09.140
but are afraid
to lose their jobs.

00:23:09.140 --> 00:23:10.510
Everybody is out
on the street today.

00:23:10.510 --> 00:23:14.250
AMY GOODMAN: María Carrión,
as we wrap up, can you put Spain

00:23:14.250 --> 00:23:15.850
in the context
of Europe right now,

00:23:15.850 --> 00:23:18.410
this general strike
that’s sweeping across Europe?

00:23:19.550 --> 00:23:21.290
MARÍA CARRIÓN: Well,
the strike itself

00:23:21.290 --> 00:23:24.000
is much more of
a southern European strike.

00:23:24.000 --> 00:23:27.450
So you have Portugal and Spain
who are on general strike.

00:23:27.450 --> 00:23:31.620
And Greece, Italy have
work stoppages.

00:23:31.620 --> 00:23:33.840
And then, the rest of Europe

00:23:33.840 --> 00:23:36.660
is coming out in solidarity
with southern Europe.

00:23:36.660 --> 00:23:39.340
The austerity measures
are being felt everywhere,

00:23:39.340 --> 00:23:40.610
but especially
in southern Europe.

00:23:40.610 --> 00:23:42.460
Those countries
that have been bailed out

00:23:42.460 --> 00:23:44.870
or are on the verge of being
bailed out, like Spain,

00:23:44.870 --> 00:23:47.860
are the ones who are seeing
these terrible cuts.

00:23:47.860 --> 00:23:51.320
By the way, today is when
the Spanish parliament

00:23:51.320 --> 00:23:55.850
will debate and vote
on our 2013 budget,

00:23:55.850 --> 00:23:59.470
which is—has 39 billion
euros in cuts.

00:23:59.470 --> 00:24:02.670
That’s about $50
billion in cuts.

00:24:02.670 --> 00:24:05.040
So, you’re seeing
Germans come out,

00:24:05.040 --> 00:24:06.750
you’re seeing Belgians come out,

00:24:06.750 --> 00:24:08.780
in solidarity for
southern Europe.

00:24:08.780 --> 00:24:11.300
Next week is a big
budget meeting.

00:24:11.300 --> 00:24:14.570
All 27 member countries
will be getting together,

00:24:14.570 --> 00:24:16.530
EU countries will be
getting together.

00:24:16.530 --> 00:24:18.330
And there are
obviously two blocs.

00:24:18.330 --> 00:24:21.230
The bloc that is
the southern bloc,

00:24:21.230 --> 00:24:23.000
saying, "Please do not cut
any further;

00:24:23.000 --> 00:24:24.780
austerity is not working.

00:24:24.780 --> 00:24:28.230
Let’s try to, you know,
stimulate these economies.

00:24:28.230 --> 00:24:29.750
Let’s try to create employment";

00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:32.250
and then countries that
are more euro-skeptic,

00:24:32.250 --> 00:24:33.800
like Britain,
saying,

00:24:33.800 --> 00:24:36.330
"Let’s live only
within our means,"

00:24:36.330 --> 00:24:38.260
which means more
austerity cuts.

00:24:39.670 --> 00:24:41.500
AMY GOODMAN: María, we want to
thank you for being with us.

00:24:41.500 --> 00:24:43.820
María Carrión, independent
freelance journalist,

00:24:43.820 --> 00:24:45.480
Democracy Now!
correspondent.

00:24:45.480 --> 00:24:47.910
Her latest piece is in
The Progressive magazine,

00:24:47.910 --> 00:24:49.760
called "Spaniards
Take On the Banks."

00:24:49.760 --> 00:24:52.390
This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

00:24:52.390 --> 00:24:54.600
The War and Peace Report.
When we come back,

00:24:55.480 --> 00:24:57.530
we will be joined
by Glenn Greenwald

00:24:57.530 --> 00:25:00.990
of The Guardian on
the Petraeus-Allen scandal

00:25:00.990 --> 00:25:02.650
and more.
Stay with us.

00:25:04.490 --> 00:25:06.420
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now

00:25:06.420 --> 00:25:07.750
to the

00:25:07.750 --> 00:26:11.380
latest

00:26:11.380 --> 00:26:27.310
developments

00:26:27.310 --> 00:26:40.660
in the scandal

00:26:40.660 --> 00:26:43.570
that has brought down
CIA director David Petraeus

00:26:43.570 --> 00:26:45.680
and ensnared General John Allen,

00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:47.790
the top U.S. commander
in Afghanistan.

00:26:48.360 --> 00:26:52.060
The Pentagon says the FBI has
uncovered thousands of, quote,

00:26:52.060 --> 00:26:53.830
"potentially inappropriate"

00:26:53.830 --> 00:26:56.740
emails between
Allen and Jill Kelley,

00:26:56.740 --> 00:26:58.390
the woman who complained
of harassment

00:26:58.390 --> 00:27:00.590
from Petraeus’s lover,
Paula Broadwell.

00:27:01.100 --> 00:27:02.790
Kelley’s complaint
to the FBI

00:27:02.790 --> 00:27:04.440
led to the discovery
of Broadwell

00:27:04.440 --> 00:27:06.210
and Petraeus’s relationship,

00:27:06.210 --> 00:27:09.440
prompting Petraeus’s
resignation on Friday.

00:27:09.440 --> 00:27:12.420
Allen succeeded Petraeus
in Afghanistan last year.

00:27:12.420 --> 00:27:14.240
The Pentagon says
Allen will remain

00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.840
the U.S. commander
in Afghanistan for now,

00:27:16.840 --> 00:27:18.330
but that plans to nominate him

00:27:18.330 --> 00:27:20.800
to become NATO’s
Supreme Allied Commander

00:27:20.800 --> 00:27:24.060
are on hold pending the outcome
of the investigation.

00:27:24.600 --> 00:27:26.120
Responding to the revelations,

00:27:26.120 --> 00:27:27.430
White House spokesperson

00:27:27.430 --> 00:27:30.370
Jay Carney reaffirmed
on Tuesday President

00:27:30.370 --> 00:27:32.290
Obama’s faith in General Allen.

00:27:33.300 --> 00:27:35.840
JAY CARNEY: I can tell you
that the president thinks

00:27:35.840 --> 00:27:37.260
very highly of General

00:27:37.260 --> 00:27:39.500
Allen and his service
to his country,

00:27:40.040 --> 00:27:44.030
as well as the job
he has done in Afghanistan.

00:27:44.030 --> 00:27:45.880
At the request of
the secretary of defense,

00:27:45.880 --> 00:27:48.730
the president has put on hold
General Allen’s nomination

00:27:48.730 --> 00:27:50.910
as Supreme Allied
Commander Europe,

00:27:50.910 --> 00:27:54.180
pending the investigation
of General Allen’s conduct

00:27:54.180 --> 00:27:55.500
by the Department of Defense.

00:27:55.500 --> 00:27:58.350
AMY GOODMAN: To talk more about
the significance of this inquiry

00:27:58.350 --> 00:28:00.610
and much more, we’re joined now
by Glenn Greenwald,

00:28:00.610 --> 00:28:02.420
columnist and blogger
for The Guardian,

00:28:02.420 --> 00:28:03.820
author of With Liberty
and Justice

00:28:03.820 --> 00:28:05.090
for Some:
How the Law

00:28:05.090 --> 00:28:07.540
Is Used to Destroy Equality
and Protect the Powerful.

00:28:07.540 --> 00:28:10.100
His most recent piece in
The Guardian is called

00:28:10.100 --> 00:28:12.450
"FBI’s Abuse
of the Surveillance State

00:28:12.450 --> 00:28:15.590
is the Real Scandal
Needing Investigation."

00:28:15.590 --> 00:28:17.830
Glenn Greenwald,
welcome back to Democracy Now!

00:28:17.830 --> 00:28:19.260
Elaborate.

00:28:19.260 --> 00:28:21.920
GLENN GREENWALD: I think there
is a lot of media focus

00:28:21.920 --> 00:28:24.580
on the salacious
aspects of this case

00:28:24.580 --> 00:28:26.360
for reasons that are obvious,

00:28:26.360 --> 00:28:28.820
which is that the media
loves sex scandals.

00:28:29.360 --> 00:28:31.280
But there are real issues

00:28:31.280 --> 00:28:34.070
arising from this of genuine
importance and substance,

00:28:34.070 --> 00:28:36.450
beginning with the fact
that the FBI,

00:28:36.450 --> 00:28:38.740
based on really no evidence

00:28:38.740 --> 00:28:40.460
of any actual crime,

00:28:40.460 --> 00:28:43.930
engaged in this massive
surveillance effort of, first,

00:28:43.930 --> 00:28:47.040
obtaining all kinds of intimate
and private information

00:28:47.040 --> 00:28:49.710
about two women,
one of whom complained,

00:28:49.710 --> 00:28:51.320
one of whom was the target
of the complaint,

00:28:51.320 --> 00:28:52.880
Paula Broadwell and Jill Kelley;

00:28:53.710 --> 00:28:55.060
learned the locations

00:28:55.060 --> 00:28:57.340
and email accounts
of Paula Broadwell,

00:28:57.340 --> 00:29:00.180
who was the subject of
this fairly innocuous complaint;

00:29:00.180 --> 00:29:01.720
read through all of her emails;

00:29:01.720 --> 00:29:05.160
learned the identity of her
anonymous lover, David Petraeus;

00:29:05.160 --> 00:29:07.950
likely read—certainly read
through all of her emails,

00:29:07.950 --> 00:29:09.860
probably read through his;

00:29:09.860 --> 00:29:11.600
and then, in the process,
as well,

00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:14.730
learned about an affair
between the complainant,

00:29:14.730 --> 00:29:16.150
Jill Kelley—or not an affair,

00:29:16.150 --> 00:29:18.930
but inappropriate communications
, as they’re calling it,

00:29:18.930 --> 00:29:22.330
and the four-star general
in Afghanistan, General Allen;

00:29:22.330 --> 00:29:24.520
and then obtained 20,000
to 30,000 pages

00:29:24.520 --> 00:29:26.780
of emails between them, as well.

00:29:26.780 --> 00:29:30.850
So you’re talking about a
massively invasive investigation

00:29:30.850 --> 00:29:32.460
without any of their knowledge,

00:29:32.460 --> 00:29:33.700
obtaining their most private

00:29:33.700 --> 00:29:35.300
and intimate
communications—all

00:29:35.300 --> 00:29:37.450
without evidence
of any predicate crime,

00:29:37.450 --> 00:29:40.890
really without the need,
except in a few cases,

00:29:40.890 --> 00:29:42.640
for judicial view or oversight.

00:29:42.640 --> 00:29:44.020
And, to me,
it really illustrates

00:29:44.020 --> 00:29:45.780
how—how invasive

00:29:45.780 --> 00:29:48.720
and sprawling this unaccountable
surveillance state has become.

00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:50.130
This happens all the time,

00:29:50.130 --> 00:29:53.150
just generally to people
less powerful and influential

00:29:53.150 --> 00:29:55.270
than the two generals
in question here.

00:29:55.270 --> 00:29:58.000
And so we can really
learn lessons, I hope,

00:29:58.000 --> 00:30:00.610
about what we’ve allowed
the government to do

00:30:00.610 --> 00:30:02.710
in terms of its
investigative powers.

00:30:03.220 --> 00:30:05.290
AMY GOODMAN: Earlier this year,
Paula Broadwell

00:30:05.290 --> 00:30:08.190
discussed her book
on General David Petraeus—oh,

00:30:08.190 --> 00:30:10.660
because, we should explain,
Paula Broadwell is David

00:30:10.660 --> 00:30:14.820
Petraeus’s biographer—with Jon

00:30:14.820 --> 00:30:16.190
Stewart of The Daily Show.

00:30:17.070 --> 00:30:18.300
JON STEWART: 
People in these books

00:30:18.300 --> 00:30:19.780
very rarely—they always think,

00:30:19.780 --> 00:30:21.120
I’ll be the one
to outsmart

00:30:21.120 --> 00:30:22.550
the—I’ll be the one
to outsmart—I’ll

00:30:22.550 --> 00:30:25.890
give the access—and it never—but

00:30:25.890 --> 00:30:28.700
in this—I mean,
the most controversial thing

00:30:28.700 --> 00:30:30.970
is—I would say
the real controversy here

00:30:30.970 --> 00:30:33.250
is, is he awesome
or incredibly awesome?

00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:35.670
It’s very—it’s a nice portrait.

00:30:35.670 --> 00:30:36.760
PAULA BROADWELL: I have a detail
to share with you.

00:30:36.760 --> 00:30:37.120
JON STEWART: All right.

00:30:37.120 --> 00:30:38.920
PAULA BROADWELL: He can turn
water into bottled water.

00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:39.240
JON STEWART: What?

00:30:39.240 --> 00:30:41.170
PAULA BROADWELL: 
Isn’t that your line?

00:30:41.170 --> 00:30:42.110
JON STEWART: One thing we did
find out

00:30:42.110 --> 00:30:43.450
is his nickname is Peaches.

00:30:44.310 --> 00:30:47.210
PAULA BROADWELL: 
Was—it was Peaches

00:30:47.210 --> 00:30:49.200
when he was in—he was
in high school,

00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:50.350
and it followed him
to West Point

00:30:50.350 --> 00:30:52.070
and has stuck a little bit.

00:30:52.070 --> 00:30:54.270
AMY GOODMAN: In a separate
interview, Paula Broadwell

00:30:54.270 --> 00:30:55.470
explained why she admires

00:30:55.470 --> 00:30:57.400
and respects General
David Petraeus.

00:30:58.030 --> 00:30:59.540
PAULA BROADWELL: When I realized
the opportunity

00:30:59.540 --> 00:31:01.540
I had to tell this message,

00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:02.930
to present this portrait

00:31:02.930 --> 00:31:04.550
of strategic
leadership—you know,

00:31:04.550 --> 00:31:06.450
it’s not—it’s not a hagiography;

00:31:06.450 --> 00:31:07.810
I’m not in love
with David Petraeus.

00:31:07.810 --> 00:31:09.020
But I think he does present

00:31:09.020 --> 00:31:11.020
a terrific role model
for young people,

00:31:11.020 --> 00:31:13.320
for executives,
for men and women.

00:31:13.320 --> 00:31:15.230
No matter what, there’s
a great role model there

00:31:15.230 --> 00:31:17.330
who is—who is values-oriented,

00:31:17.330 --> 00:31:19.900
who speaks the truth
to power.

00:31:20.560 --> 00:31:22.020
AMY GOODMAN: Glenn Greenwald?

00:31:22.020 --> 00:31:22.600
GLENN GREENWALD: 
One of the things

00:31:22.600 --> 00:31:23.810
that I think
is so interesting is

00:31:23.810 --> 00:31:26.280
that what she was saying
in those interviews

00:31:26.280 --> 00:31:28.850
and in her book
fit very comfortably

00:31:28.850 --> 00:31:31.990
into the general media narrative
about David Petraeus.

00:31:32.570 --> 00:31:35.860
She may have had a deeply
personal relationship with him,

00:31:35.860 --> 00:31:38.290
but the affection that she had
for him was shared

00:31:38.290 --> 00:31:40.630
by most of the people
in the media

00:31:40.630 --> 00:31:42.640
who were covering
and discussing him.

00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:44.460
And one of the national
security reporters

00:31:44.460 --> 00:31:46.140
for Wired magazine,
Spencer Ackerman,

00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:50.000
actually wrote a commendably
candid piece this week

00:31:50.000 --> 00:31:52.290
confessing that he had
essentially

00:31:52.290 --> 00:31:54.050
hypnotically joined
what he called

00:31:54.050 --> 00:31:55.430
"the cult of David Petraeus,"

00:31:55.430 --> 00:31:58.260
along with most
of the—his colleagues

00:31:58.260 --> 00:31:59.490
in the national media

00:31:59.490 --> 00:32:02.190
who cover national security.

00:32:02.190 --> 00:32:05.080
And I think it really evinces
this sort of reverence

00:32:05.080 --> 00:32:06.610
for all things military,

00:32:06.610 --> 00:32:08.570
and specifically
for General Petraeus.

00:32:08.570 --> 00:32:10.410
NERMEEN SHAIKH: You actually,
Glenn, spoke in one

00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:12.250
of your most recent pieces

00:32:12.250 --> 00:32:16.870
about how popular the military
is in the U.S. In fact,

00:32:16.870 --> 00:32:19.800
it is the single most popular

00:32:19.800 --> 00:32:21.220
and affirmed institution:

00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:25.250
78 percent of Americans profess,
quote, a "great deal"

00:32:25.250 --> 00:32:27.690
or a lot of confidence
in the military,

00:32:27.690 --> 00:32:29.260
according to a Gallup poll.

00:32:29.260 --> 00:32:31.750
One of the few journalists,
apart from yourself,

00:32:31.750 --> 00:32:33.990
who’s expressed some skepticism

00:32:33.990 --> 00:32:37.910
about General David Petraeus
is Michael Hastings.

00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:40.720
He’s a reporter for BuzzFeed
and Rolling Stone,

00:32:40.720 --> 00:32:44.400
and he recently appeared
on CNN Piers Morgan Tonight

00:32:44.400 --> 00:32:45.660
and said there are many reasons

00:32:45.660 --> 00:32:47.420
Petraeus should have resigned,

00:32:47.420 --> 00:32:48.900
reasons that have nothing to do

00:32:48.900 --> 00:32:51.200
with his affair
with Paula Broadwell.

00:32:52.630 --> 00:32:54.540
MICHAEL HASTINGS: I mean,
I think’s many other reasons

00:32:54.540 --> 00:32:56.120
Petraeus
should have resigned besides

00:32:56.120 --> 00:32:58.750
who he’s sleeping with
that’s not his wife.

00:32:58.750 --> 00:33:00.330
But I just want
to make a point here.

00:33:00.330 --> 00:33:01.850
The larger point that
I’ve been making is

00:33:01.850 --> 00:33:03.170
that essentially the media

00:33:03.170 --> 00:33:04.460
has played a role

00:33:04.460 --> 00:33:06.190
in protecting David Petraeus

00:33:06.190 --> 00:33:07.410
and promoting David Petraeus

00:33:07.410 --> 00:33:09.230
and mythologizing
David Petraeus.

00:33:09.230 --> 00:33:10.860
And we saw it here tonight.

00:33:10.860 --> 00:33:13.390
General Kimmitt, who was
a spokesperson in Baghdad,

00:33:13.390 --> 00:33:14.870
who was a roommate of Petraeus,

00:33:14.870 --> 00:33:17.560
who was involved in one
of the biggest debacles

00:33:17.560 --> 00:33:19.180
in recent foreign
policy history,

00:33:19.180 --> 00:33:20.400
is on TV, you know,

00:33:20.400 --> 00:33:22.470
defending David Petraeus

00:33:22.470 --> 00:33:24.510
without actually
addressing the real problems

00:33:24.510 --> 00:33:26.060
with David Petraeus’s record.

00:33:26.060 --> 00:33:28.630
And those are the fact
that he manipulated

00:33:28.630 --> 00:33:30.810
the White House
into escalating in Afghanistan;

00:33:30.810 --> 00:33:34.750
he ran a campaign in Iraq
that was brutally savage,

00:33:34.750 --> 00:33:37.790
included arming the worst
of the worst,

00:33:37.790 --> 00:33:40.100
Shiite death squads,
Sunni militiamen;

00:33:40.820 --> 00:33:42.250
and then you go back
to the training

00:33:42.250 --> 00:33:45.300
of the Iraqi army program
that also had similar problems.

00:33:45.300 --> 00:33:47.340
So, for me, all the while,

00:33:47.340 --> 00:33:48.770
he’s going around the country

00:33:48.770 --> 00:33:51.290
talking about honor
and integrity.

00:33:51.290 --> 00:33:52.570
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That was
Michael Hastings

00:33:52.570 --> 00:33:54.670
speaking on CNN’s Piers Morgan

00:33:54.670 --> 00:33:56.580
[Tonight].
Glenn Greenwald, your response?

00:33:56.580 --> 00:33:57.430
GLENN GREENWALD: Well,
I think Michael Hastings

00:33:57.430 --> 00:33:58.640
is a fascinating case.

00:33:58.640 --> 00:34:00.350
If you recall, he’s the reporter

00:34:00.350 --> 00:34:02.100
who wrote the Rolling
Stone cover story

00:34:02.100 --> 00:34:04.520
about General McChrystal
who ended General McChrystal’s,

00:34:04.520 --> 00:34:05.990
Stanley McChrystal’s, career,

00:34:05.990 --> 00:34:07.270
who at the time
was the commander

00:34:07.270 --> 00:34:08.780
of the war in Afghanistan.

00:34:08.780 --> 00:34:10.850
And what was amazing
about that was,

00:34:10.850 --> 00:34:12.950
nobody doubted
the authenticity of the quotes

00:34:12.950 --> 00:34:14.370
that he included
in his article,

00:34:14.370 --> 00:34:17.830
and yet huge numbers of the most
prominent media figures

00:34:17.830 --> 00:34:20.690
who cover the war
in Afghanistan attacked

00:34:20.690 --> 00:34:23.660
Michael Hastings viciously—John
Burns at the New York Times,

00:34:23.660 --> 00:34:25.650
Lara Logan at CBS.

00:34:25.650 --> 00:34:27.460
And what they were essentially
accusing him of doing

00:34:27.460 --> 00:34:30.080
was violating
the trust of the general,

00:34:30.080 --> 00:34:31.430
not because he had
reported things

00:34:31.430 --> 00:34:32.690
that were supposed
to be off the record,

00:34:32.690 --> 00:34:34.220
but because they said

00:34:34.220 --> 00:34:36.370
that you develop a bond
with these generals.

00:34:36.370 --> 00:34:37.930
John Burns talked about
how you end up

00:34:37.930 --> 00:34:39.360
sleeping in the same tent
with them,

00:34:39.360 --> 00:34:41.880
flying over war zones
in Afghanistan,

00:34:41.880 --> 00:34:43.470
and that they really
have an expectation

00:34:43.470 --> 00:34:45.030
that you should honor,
as a reporter,

00:34:45.030 --> 00:34:48.020
to protect and shield them
and their reputation.

00:34:48.020 --> 00:34:49.210
And that’s what
these journalists

00:34:49.210 --> 00:34:50.290
see themselves as doing,

00:34:50.290 --> 00:34:53.590
as serving as spokespeople
for these military figures,

00:34:53.590 --> 00:34:55.390
and that’s why they were
so angry at Michael Hastings.

00:34:55.390 --> 00:34:58.220
He was attacked again
because of that CNN interview.

00:34:58.220 --> 00:35:00.530
There’s an article in Politico
essentially describing him

00:35:00.530 --> 00:35:03.170
as—as this sort of
unhinged person who,

00:35:03.170 --> 00:35:05.330
as they put it—this
is a quote—is

00:35:05.330 --> 00:35:07.100
"muddying" the "sacred waters"

00:35:07.100 --> 00:35:10.040
of journalism through his,
quote-unquote, "advocacy."

00:35:10.040 --> 00:35:12.830
And so, what you really see
is there’s—there’s a perception

00:35:12.830 --> 00:35:14.630
that there’s no national
religion in the United States.

00:35:14.630 --> 00:35:16.590
Christianity is not the state
religion—that’s true.

00:35:16.590 --> 00:35:18.650
But the national religion
in the United States

00:35:18.650 --> 00:35:20.540
is worship of
all things military.

00:35:20.540 --> 00:35:22.410
And journalists
are its high priests.

00:35:22.410 --> 00:35:23.730
AMY GOODMAN: So now what
does this mean

00:35:23.730 --> 00:35:25.570
for Afghanistan, for the CIA?

00:35:25.570 --> 00:35:27.230
First of all,
you had this general,

00:35:27.230 --> 00:35:28.870
a military general,

00:35:28.870 --> 00:35:30.620
becoming head of the CIA.

00:35:30.620 --> 00:35:32.600
Now David Petraeus is out.

00:35:32.600 --> 00:35:33.860
And then you have whatever

00:35:33.860 --> 00:35:36.110
is going to happen
to John Allen happen.

00:35:36.110 --> 00:35:37.750
What does this mean?

00:35:37.750 --> 00:35:39.370
GLENN GREENWALD: I’m not sure
it really means anything

00:35:39.370 --> 00:35:41.480
for the policies
of the national security state.

00:35:41.480 --> 00:35:43.940
The national security state
seems to endure no matter

00:35:43.940 --> 00:35:46.340
what happens to its
particular figureheads.

00:35:46.340 --> 00:35:48.730
I think they’ll
simply be replaced.

00:35:48.730 --> 00:35:51.080
I’m not sure, actually, that
General Allen is going anywhere.

00:35:51.660 --> 00:35:53.330
Certainly, David Petraeus was

00:35:53.330 --> 00:35:55.760
an important person in the sense

00:35:55.760 --> 00:35:58.500
that he was so revered,
almost as a religious figure,

00:35:58.500 --> 00:36:00.400
that he shielded the CIA

00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:03.440
and other military institutions
from any kind of criticism.

00:36:04.130 --> 00:36:05.810
But I think you’ll see
most of that enduring.

00:36:05.810 --> 00:36:07.390
AMY GOODMAN: And has been
pushing for an expansion

00:36:07.390 --> 00:36:08.530
of the drone war.

00:36:08.530 --> 00:36:10.340
GLENN GREENWALD: Right.
But, of course, President Obama,

00:36:10.340 --> 00:36:12.060
who’s the commander-in-chief

00:36:12.060 --> 00:36:13.970
and his boss,

00:36:13.970 --> 00:36:15.780
is very much on board
with an expansion,

00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:18.710
not just of a drone war,
but of the conversion of the CIA

00:36:18.710 --> 00:36:21.270
into even more of
a paramilitary organization

00:36:21.270 --> 00:36:22.810
than it has ever been before.

00:36:22.810 --> 00:36:24.530
Obama is enamored
of this idea,

00:36:24.530 --> 00:36:26.690
and I think that will
continue fully apace,

00:36:26.690 --> 00:36:30.230
so whoever steps in will be
fully on board with that.

00:36:30.230 --> 00:36:31.730
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So can you say
a little bit, Glenn,

00:36:31.730 --> 00:36:33.620
about the significance
of Obama’s

00:36:33.620 --> 00:36:35.450
re-election last week?

00:36:36.260 --> 00:36:39.800
GLENN GREENWALD: Well, I think
that a lot of it depends

00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:41.560
not on what
President Obama does.

00:36:41.560 --> 00:36:43.480
There is some expectation
that he’s now

00:36:43.480 --> 00:36:46.240
suddenly going to reveal
his true progressive self,

00:36:46.240 --> 00:36:47.410
now that he’s been liberated

00:36:47.410 --> 00:36:49.300
from the pressures
of re-election.

00:36:49.300 --> 00:36:53.550
I think this is completely
mythological fantasy thinking.

00:36:53.550 --> 00:36:56.110
I think we see who the true
President Obama is.

00:36:56.110 --> 00:36:57.940
I take him at his word
that the policies

00:36:57.940 --> 00:36:59.280
that he pursued
in the first term

00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:01.390
are the policies
that he believes in.

00:37:01.390 --> 00:37:03.490
I think the question is:
Will the Democratic Party,

00:37:03.490 --> 00:37:04.860
and specifically the progressive

00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:06.990
and liberal component
of the Democratic Party,

00:37:06.990 --> 00:37:09.960
change its behavior
from cheerleader,

00:37:09.960 --> 00:37:12.570
from blindly supportive,

00:37:13.320 --> 00:37:15.700
partisan apparatchiks,

00:37:15.700 --> 00:37:17.340
which is what they were
in the first term,

00:37:17.340 --> 00:37:19.810
putting pressure on him
in almost no instance,

00:37:19.810 --> 00:37:21.630
cheering for whatever it
is that he did,

00:37:21.630 --> 00:37:24.900
no matter how contrary it
was to their professed values,

00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:27.070
into some kind of a force

00:37:27.070 --> 00:37:29.700
where they actually fulfill
their duties as citizens,

00:37:29.700 --> 00:37:32.390
which is to hold political
leaders accountable?

00:37:32.390 --> 00:37:35.410
And I think the very first test
for this is going to be

00:37:35.410 --> 00:37:37.530
what Amy began the broadcast
by discussing,

00:37:37.530 --> 00:37:39.930
what I know you’ve been
covering here this week,

00:37:39.930 --> 00:37:41.660
which is the budget fight,

00:37:41.660 --> 00:37:45.180
where it is almost certainly
the case that President Obama

00:37:45.180 --> 00:37:47.030
will do what he already
attempted to do,

00:37:47.030 --> 00:37:49.050
which is target
the crown jewels,

00:37:49.050 --> 00:37:51.430
legislative jewels,
of liberalism,

00:37:51.430 --> 00:37:54.450
which are Social Security
and Medicare, for cuts,

00:37:54.450 --> 00:37:56.030
in order to pursue
this grand bargain

00:37:56.030 --> 00:37:57.210
with the Republican Party.

00:37:57.210 --> 00:38:00.300
And will the liberal wing
of the Democratic Party

00:38:00.810 --> 00:38:02.980
do anything more than
just make symbolic

00:38:02.980 --> 00:38:04.900
and empty gestures
toward opposing it

00:38:04.900 --> 00:38:06.830
but at the end become
good partisan soldiers,

00:38:06.830 --> 00:38:09.510
as they always do, or will
they provide real opposition?

00:38:09.510 --> 00:38:11.970
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to recent
comments by Republican House

00:38:11.970 --> 00:38:13.250
Speaker John Boehner,

00:38:13.250 --> 00:38:16.040
who argued against any tax hikes
as part of a deal

00:38:16.040 --> 00:38:17.910
to avoid the so-called
"fiscal cliff."

00:38:18.530 --> 00:38:20.040
HOUSE SPEAKER JOHN BOEHNER: 
Instead of raising tax rates

00:38:20.040 --> 00:38:22.140
on the American people
and accepting the damage it

00:38:22.140 --> 00:38:23.520
will do to our economy,

00:38:23.520 --> 00:38:25.420
let’s start to actually
solve the problem.

00:38:26.030 --> 00:38:27.490
Let’s focus on tax reform

00:38:27.490 --> 00:38:31.280
that closes special-interest
loopholes and lowers tax rates.

00:38:31.280 --> 00:38:33.410
Instead of accepting
arbitrary cuts

00:38:33.410 --> 00:38:35.830
that will endanger
our national defense,

00:38:35.830 --> 00:38:37.250
let’s get serious
about shoring up

00:38:37.250 --> 00:38:38.830
the entitlement programs

00:38:38.830 --> 00:38:41.810
that are the primary drivers
of our country’s massive,

00:38:41.810 --> 00:38:43.810
growing debt.

00:38:46.650 --> 00:38:48.570
AMY GOODMAN: House Speaker
John Boehner.

00:38:49.160 --> 00:38:52.110
So, right now, there’s been
a lot of concern,

00:38:52.110 --> 00:38:53.400
especially among progressives,

00:38:53.400 --> 00:38:55.370
but beyond that,
about, you know,

00:38:55.370 --> 00:38:58.250
ensuring that people
pay their fair share.

00:38:58.250 --> 00:39:00.820
But the trade-off,

00:39:00.820 --> 00:39:03.080
it’s clear President
Obama has signaled,

00:39:03.080 --> 00:39:05.930
is cuts to what they call

00:39:05.930 --> 00:39:08.230
"entitlement" programs—Medicare,

00:39:08.230 --> 00:39:10.480
Medicaid, Social Security.

00:39:11.350 --> 00:39:13.200
Talk about these,

00:39:13.200 --> 00:39:14.650
what yesterday our guest

00:39:14.650 --> 00:39:16.670
Sarah Anderson
of Institute for Policy

00:39:16.670 --> 00:39:19.120
Studies called "earned"
income benefits

00:39:19.120 --> 00:39:21.960
["earned benefit programs"]
, actually, not "entitlements."

00:39:21.960 --> 00:39:22.530
GLENN GREENWALD: Well,
of course,

00:39:22.530 --> 00:39:24.190
I mean, Social Security

00:39:24.190 --> 00:39:27.780
is something that people have
paid into their entire lives,

00:39:27.780 --> 00:39:29.190
not just people
who are on the verge

00:39:29.190 --> 00:39:30.180
of receiving those benefits,

00:39:30.180 --> 00:39:33.070
but even workers who have been
in the workforce for some time.

00:39:33.070 --> 00:39:35.850
And what is truly extraordinary
about this moment, to me,

00:39:35.850 --> 00:39:38.830
is that what really defined
President Obama’s first term,

00:39:38.830 --> 00:39:41.430
from a domestic
and economic perspective,

00:39:41.430 --> 00:39:43.840
is that the recovery
from the financial crisis

00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:48.180
was one that was a recovery
for the wealthiest in America.

00:39:48.180 --> 00:39:50.520
Corporate profits boomed.

00:39:50.520 --> 00:39:52.480
Wall Street and the stock market

00:39:52.480 --> 00:39:53.790
increased, at the time

00:39:53.790 --> 00:39:56.380
when the foreclosure crisis
continued to worsen.

00:39:56.380 --> 00:39:58.330
Very little attention
was paid to that.

00:39:58.330 --> 00:40:00.870
Very little has been done
about unemployment.

00:40:00.870 --> 00:40:02.360
And so, the income gap,

00:40:02.360 --> 00:40:04.550
the rich-poor gap,
in the United States

00:40:04.550 --> 00:40:06.760
is the highest that
it’s been in four decades,

00:40:06.760 --> 00:40:08.050
since 1967.

00:40:08.050 --> 00:40:10.490
People are still suffering,
as President Obama,

00:40:10.490 --> 00:40:13.400
when he was campaigning and had
an interest in saying so,

00:40:13.400 --> 00:40:15.250
continuously emphasized.

00:40:15.250 --> 00:40:18.170
And so, now,
to approach this crisis

00:40:18.170 --> 00:40:21.210
by targeting
the very few programs

00:40:21.210 --> 00:40:23.580
left that provide
a civilized safety

00:40:23.580 --> 00:40:28.040
net to the people who need it
the most is obscene.

00:40:28.040 --> 00:40:30.980
And so, I think that if you
see the Democratic Party,

00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:32.750
whether in the name
of principle,

00:40:32.750 --> 00:40:34.540
as I think President
Obama will pursue it,

00:40:34.540 --> 00:40:37.050
that it’s the right thing to do,
or simply even

00:40:37.050 --> 00:40:38.550
necessity of compromise,

00:40:38.550 --> 00:40:40.330
which some partisans ultimately

00:40:40.330 --> 00:40:42.200
will invoke in order
to defend it,

00:40:42.200 --> 00:40:43.660
target those programs,

00:40:43.660 --> 00:40:46.130
even in minimal ways
and symbolic ways—but

00:40:46.130 --> 00:40:48.150
I think it will be much
more than that—I think

00:40:48.150 --> 00:40:49.770
that would really
be an assault

00:40:49.770 --> 00:40:52.410
on everything that progressives
not only claim to believe in,

00:40:52.410 --> 00:40:54.300
but claim was the primary reason

00:40:54.300 --> 00:40:56.010
they were for voting
for President Obama,

00:40:56.010 --> 00:40:58.120
which was to protect
entitlement programs.

00:40:58.120 --> 00:40:59.590
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But you also
make an argument, Glenn,

00:40:59.590 --> 00:41:01.350
about why it would be easier

00:41:01.350 --> 00:41:03.180
and it will be
easier for Obama

00:41:03.180 --> 00:41:05.250
to curtail these programs
in a way

00:41:05.250 --> 00:41:07.010
that it would not
have been possible, say,

00:41:07.010 --> 00:41:09.610
if Romney had been elected.
Can you elaborate on that?

00:41:09.610 --> 00:41:10.770
GLENN GREENWALD: Sure.
I mean, this, to me,

00:41:10.770 --> 00:41:13.920
was the principal deficiency
of the discussion

00:41:13.920 --> 00:41:16.300
and discourse leading up
to the election in Democratic

00:41:16.300 --> 00:41:17.740
and progressive circles.

00:41:17.740 --> 00:41:21.020
If you were a journalist
working for the last year,

00:41:21.020 --> 00:41:22.970
as you were, as I was,

00:41:22.970 --> 00:41:25.630
and identifying things
that President Obama

00:41:25.630 --> 00:41:29.240
was doing that were wrong
or that were erroneous,

00:41:29.240 --> 00:41:31.510
the argument that you would
immediately hear is,

00:41:31.510 --> 00:41:33.120
"Well, Mitt Romney is worse,"

00:41:33.120 --> 00:41:34.590
by which those people would mean

00:41:34.590 --> 00:41:35.990
that the position
that Mitt Romney

00:41:35.990 --> 00:41:38.300
had in the campaign
on those issues

00:41:38.300 --> 00:41:40.880
was either as bad as or worse

00:41:40.880 --> 00:41:42.770
than the one
that President Obama had.

00:41:42.770 --> 00:41:44.440
Now, in one sense,
that was irrelevant.

00:41:44.440 --> 00:41:46.770
If you’re a journalist,
if you’re a citizen,

00:41:46.770 --> 00:41:48.000
your duty is to hold the people

00:41:48.000 --> 00:41:49.830
who exercise power accountable.

00:41:49.830 --> 00:41:51.860
And the fact that Mitt
Romney is worse

00:41:51.860 --> 00:41:53.280
doesn’t alleviate
that obligation.

00:41:53.280 --> 00:41:55.180
But even from
an election perspective,

00:41:55.180 --> 00:41:57.020
that’s an incredibly
simple-minded

00:41:57.020 --> 00:41:58.650
and incomplete way
of looking at things.

00:41:58.650 --> 00:42:00.150
The question is not:

00:42:00.150 --> 00:42:03.110
Is Mitt Romney’s view
on a particular issue,

00:42:03.110 --> 00:42:05.140
or are the Republicans’ position

00:42:05.140 --> 00:42:07.240
on a particular issue
as bad or worse?

00:42:07.240 --> 00:42:10.360
The question is:
What are each candidate

00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:12.920
able to accomplish
in their particular field?

00:42:12.920 --> 00:42:16.610
So, there’s that cliché about
how only Richard Nixon

00:42:16.610 --> 00:42:17.540
could have established

00:42:17.540 --> 00:42:19.060
relationships
with Communist China,

00:42:19.060 --> 00:42:20.830
because only
a Republican could do it.

00:42:20.830 --> 00:42:22.620
I think only
a Democratic president

00:42:22.620 --> 00:42:24.780
could have institutionalized
the drone war,

00:42:24.780 --> 00:42:28.040
assassinated U.S. citizens,
persecuted whistleblowers.

00:42:28.040 --> 00:42:29.560
And lots of Bush officials
had said,

00:42:29.560 --> 00:42:31.290
"There was a lot of this stuff
that we wanted to do

00:42:31.290 --> 00:42:33.220
that we knew we couldn’t do,
because had we tried,

00:42:33.220 --> 00:42:35.130
there would have been
an enormous storm

00:42:35.130 --> 00:42:36.480
from Democrats,

00:42:36.480 --> 00:42:38.330
from the media,
and we just couldn’t do it."

00:42:38.330 --> 00:42:40.670
But Obama can do it
because he brings progressives

00:42:40.670 --> 00:42:42.200
and Democrats along with him.

00:42:42.200 --> 00:42:43.910
Mitt Romney never
would have been able

00:42:43.910 --> 00:42:46.060
to cut Social Security
or target Medicare,

00:42:46.060 --> 00:42:49.100
because there would have been
an enormous eruption of anger

00:42:49.100 --> 00:42:52.000
and intense, sustained
opposition by Democrats

00:42:52.000 --> 00:42:54.620
and progressives accusing him
of all sorts of things.

00:42:54.620 --> 00:42:56.400
President Obama
has the ability,

00:42:56.400 --> 00:42:57.950
as he’s proven over and over,

00:42:57.950 --> 00:43:00.840
to bring Democrats
and progressives along with him

00:43:00.840 --> 00:43:02.300
and to lead them to support

00:43:02.300 --> 00:43:03.960
and get on board with things

00:43:03.960 --> 00:43:05.540
that they have sworn
they would never,

00:43:05.540 --> 00:43:07.100
ever be able to support.

00:43:07.100 --> 00:43:09.370
And for that reason,
he is in a much better position,

00:43:09.370 --> 00:43:11.270
he’s much more effective,

00:43:11.270 --> 00:43:12.600
at institutionalizing

00:43:12.600 --> 00:43:15.020
these horrible policies
than Mitt Romney

00:43:15.020 --> 00:43:17.960
or any other Republican would
have the ability to do.

00:43:17.960 --> 00:43:20.410
There’s—just let me add to that.
There’s this amazing

00:43:20.410 --> 00:43:21.960
analysis from Jack Goldsmith,

00:43:21.960 --> 00:43:23.510
who’s on the faculty
of Harvard Law School.

00:43:23.510 --> 00:43:24.850
He was formerly
a Justice

00:43:24.850 --> 00:43:28.180
Department—Bush Justice
Department official,

00:43:28.180 --> 00:43:31.100
who last week wrote,
in a celebratory way,

00:43:31.100 --> 00:43:33.570
that what President Obama’s
re-election will mean

00:43:33.570 --> 00:43:36.520
is that the terrorism policies
of George Bush and Dick Cheney

00:43:36.520 --> 00:43:38.380
that were once so controversial

00:43:38.380 --> 00:43:41.660
will now be permanently shielded
from criticism

00:43:41.660 --> 00:43:44.020
in a way that Mitt Romney
could never have achieved,

00:43:44.020 --> 00:43:46.000
because Democrats
and progressives,

00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:47.250
under Obama,

00:43:47.250 --> 00:43:49.940
will ignore those policies
or cheer for them,

00:43:49.940 --> 00:43:52.020
whereas if Romney
had been re-elected

00:43:52.020 --> 00:43:53.500
[sic], their interest
in these issues

00:43:53.500 --> 00:43:56.490
and their opposition to them
would have been revitalized.

00:43:56.490 --> 00:43:58.830
I think this is the pattern
that you see over and over,

00:43:58.830 --> 00:44:01.430
is that even if Obama
is the lesser of two evils,

00:44:01.430 --> 00:44:04.000
he is also the much
more effective of two evils.

00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:06.500
And that was the analysis
that was, I think,

00:44:06.500 --> 00:44:09.170
missing so profoundly
leading up to the election.

00:44:09.670 --> 00:44:10.970
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going
to break and then come back

00:44:10.970 --> 00:44:12.830
to Glenn Greenwald,
columnist and blogger

00:44:12.830 --> 00:44:15.200
for The Guardian.
This is Democracy Now!

00:44:15.200 --> 00:45:30.510
Back in a minute.

00:45:37.950 --> 00:45:39.260
AMY GOODMAN: Our guest
is Glenn Greenwald,

00:45:39.260 --> 00:45:41.000
columnist and blogger
for The Guardian,

00:45:41.000 --> 00:45:42.730
author of With Liberty
and Justice for Some:

00:45:42.730 --> 00:45:44.730
How the Law Is Used
to Destroy Equality

00:45:44.730 --> 00:45:46.110
and Protect the Powerful.

00:45:47.530 --> 00:45:50.720
Glenn, Bradley Manning,
the latest news we have that

00:45:50.720 --> 00:45:54.260
he’d be willing to plead guilty
to some charges—Bradley Manning,

00:45:54.260 --> 00:45:56.670
give us a bit of his history
and respond to the latest,

00:45:56.670 --> 00:45:58.900
so that people who don’t
know him will know.

00:45:58.900 --> 00:46:00.030
GLENN GREENWALD: Well, Bradley
Manning, of course,

00:46:00.030 --> 00:46:02.600
is the 23-year-old—now
23-year-old Army

00:46:02.600 --> 00:46:05.030
sergeant who has been held
for two-and-a-half years

00:46:05.030 --> 00:46:07.370
by the U.S. military

00:46:07.370 --> 00:46:09.640
without having been
convicted of anything yet.

00:46:09.640 --> 00:46:11.710
He was held
in solitary confinement,

00:46:11.710 --> 00:46:12.990
intense solitary confinement

00:46:12.990 --> 00:46:15.030
that a formal U.N.
investigation found

00:46:15.030 --> 00:46:16.490
was cruel and inhumane.

00:46:16.490 --> 00:46:18.690
He has not only been charged

00:46:18.690 --> 00:46:20.920
with leaking
classified information,

00:46:20.920 --> 00:46:23.750
but with a much more
serious capital offense,

00:46:23.750 --> 00:46:25.410
for which the death
penalty is possible,

00:46:25.410 --> 00:46:26.580
though they’re not seeking it,

00:46:26.580 --> 00:46:28.460
of aiding and
abetting the enemy,

00:46:28.460 --> 00:46:30.970
on this very pernicious theory
that although

00:46:30.970 --> 00:46:33.330
he didn’t intend
to aid al-Qaeda,

00:46:33.330 --> 00:46:35.720
that by publicizing
classified affirmation,

00:46:35.720 --> 00:46:37.910
al-Qaeda could receive
that classified information

00:46:37.910 --> 00:46:39.680
and use it to its advantage,

00:46:39.680 --> 00:46:41.220
a theory that could
mean that anyone

00:46:41.220 --> 00:46:42.860
who ever releases
classified information,

00:46:42.860 --> 00:46:46.170
including newspapers
or anyone in government,

00:46:46.170 --> 00:46:47.850
can be essentially
accused of treason

00:46:47.850 --> 00:46:52.180
and executed—an extremely
radical theory.

00:46:52.180 --> 00:46:54.620
And so, he’s obviously,
at the age of 23,

00:46:54.620 --> 00:46:57.390
very worried about spending
his life in prison

00:46:57.390 --> 00:46:59.190
and is therefore considering,

00:46:59.190 --> 00:47:02.050
in order to escape from those
more serious charges,

00:47:02.050 --> 00:47:05.090
acknowledging that he did
in fact disclose this

00:47:05.090 --> 00:47:06.440
information—which nobody

00:47:06.440 --> 00:47:08.180
in the government
has ever been able to prove

00:47:08.180 --> 00:47:10.080
has led to any harm to anybody,

00:47:10.710 --> 00:47:13.910
but, if he did it, has actually
produced more transparency

00:47:13.910 --> 00:47:16.190
and crucial journalistic
scoops for the world

00:47:16.190 --> 00:47:18.370
than any act
since Daniel Ellsberg

00:47:18.370 --> 00:47:20.320
40 years ago—and

00:47:20.320 --> 00:47:22.990
therefore have the trial focus
only on this question,

00:47:22.990 --> 00:47:25.100
the real flaw in
the government’s case, which is:

00:47:25.100 --> 00:47:28.220
Was there really an intent
to aid al-Qaeda?

00:47:28.220 --> 00:47:30.060
He could have passed
the information to al-Qaeda.

00:47:30.060 --> 00:47:31.850
He could have sold it
to foreign governments.

00:47:31.850 --> 00:47:33.140
There were all kinds of ways

00:47:33.140 --> 00:47:35.330
he could have benefited
personally from this.

00:47:35.330 --> 00:47:37.910
But if those chat logs
are to be believed,

00:47:37.910 --> 00:47:39.550
the ones that
the government has,

00:47:39.550 --> 00:47:42.710
what he says is that
what motivated him was his shock

00:47:42.710 --> 00:47:44.800
to discover that the government,

00:47:44.800 --> 00:47:46.730
in whose military
he had enlisted,

00:47:46.730 --> 00:47:49.550
was engaged in all kinds
of deceitful and corrupt acts,

00:47:49.550 --> 00:47:51.690
and he needed the world
to see that and know that,

00:47:51.690 --> 00:47:53.490
so that reforms were possible.

00:47:53.490 --> 00:47:56.270
That was his intent.
He is a noble whistleblower.

00:47:56.270 --> 00:47:57.860
And the way in which

00:47:57.860 --> 00:47:59.560
American—the American left

00:47:59.560 --> 00:48:01.130
and Democrats now

00:48:01.130 --> 00:48:02.590
revere Daniel Ellsberg

00:48:02.590 --> 00:48:04.460
for his act of heroic
whistleblowing,

00:48:04.460 --> 00:48:08.280
and yet have completely ignored
the case of Bradley Manning,

00:48:08.280 --> 00:48:10.410
whose act,
as Ellsberg himself says,

00:48:10.410 --> 00:48:12.130
is every bit as courageous

00:48:12.130 --> 00:48:14.090
and probably more
consequential in terms

00:48:14.090 --> 00:48:16.130
of what it reveals,
is really appalling.

00:48:16.130 --> 00:48:17.750
AMY GOODMAN: So he’s been held
for three years.

00:48:17.750 --> 00:48:20.560
He says he would not
plead guilty to treason

00:48:20.560 --> 00:48:21.970
or to aiding the enemy.

00:48:21.970 --> 00:48:22.840
GLENN GREENWALD: Correct.

00:48:22.840 --> 00:48:25.370
All he is willing
to plead guilty to,

00:48:25.370 --> 00:48:27.540
as a means of avoiding
life in prison,

00:48:27.540 --> 00:48:29.130
is acknowledging
that he actually

00:48:29.130 --> 00:48:30.790
disclosed this
classified information.

00:48:30.790 --> 00:48:33.020
AMY GOODMAN: To WikiLeaks, which
brings us to Julian Assange

00:48:33.020 --> 00:48:34.440
and the latest on him, Glenn.

00:48:34.440 --> 00:48:35.750
GLENN GREENWALD: Well,
Julian Assange, of course,

00:48:35.750 --> 00:48:37.840
is still held up
in the embassy,

00:48:37.840 --> 00:48:39.990
the Ecuadorean
embassy in London.

00:48:39.990 --> 00:48:41.890
There are some negotiations

00:48:41.890 --> 00:48:43.400
still ongoing between

00:48:43.400 --> 00:48:46.130
the British government
and the Ecuadoreans.

00:48:46.130 --> 00:48:50.400
Of course, the key here
is that Assange himself,

00:48:50.400 --> 00:48:51.600
his lawyers,

00:48:51.600 --> 00:48:54.210
Ecuadoreans
and Assange’s defenders

00:48:54.210 --> 00:48:56.870
all want him to go to Sweden.

00:48:56.870 --> 00:48:58.480
They are—have been working

00:48:58.480 --> 00:49:01.030
for almost six months now
in order

00:49:01.030 --> 00:49:02.780
to get him
to be able to go

00:49:02.780 --> 00:49:05.130
to Stockholm to face
these allegations.

00:49:05.130 --> 00:49:07.380
The holdup is not Assange;

00:49:07.380 --> 00:49:09.690
it is that the British
and the Swedes,

00:49:09.690 --> 00:49:11.880
and especially
the United States,

00:49:11.880 --> 00:49:13.200
refuse to provide him

00:49:13.200 --> 00:49:16.040
any meaningful protection,
minimal protection,

00:49:16.040 --> 00:49:17.350
that if he goes to Sweden,

00:49:17.350 --> 00:49:19.100
that will not then be
used as a ruse

00:49:19.100 --> 00:49:20.600
to get him to the United States

00:49:20.600 --> 00:49:22.140
to face espionage charges.

00:49:22.140 --> 00:49:24.590
The minute they become
more reasonable

00:49:24.590 --> 00:49:26.410
and give him
some minimal protections

00:49:26.410 --> 00:49:28.130
and safeguards
for his human rights,

00:49:28.130 --> 00:49:29.720
he will be on the next plane

00:49:29.720 --> 00:49:31.360
to Stockholm to face
these allegations,

00:49:31.360 --> 00:49:32.560
as he should be.

00:49:32.560 --> 00:49:35.150
NERMEEN SHAIKH: I want to turn
to another case having to do

00:49:35.150 --> 00:49:38.220
with the use of torture in Iraq.

00:49:38.220 --> 00:49:40.220
Last week, a federal appeals

00:49:40.220 --> 00:49:42.190
court dismissed a lawsuit

00:49:42.190 --> 00:49:43.690
against former Defense Secretary

00:49:43.690 --> 00:49:46.900
Donald Rumsfeld for his role
in crafting policies

00:49:46.900 --> 00:49:49.170
that led to torture in Iraq.

00:49:49.170 --> 00:49:50.750
In an 8-to-3 decision,

00:49:50.750 --> 00:49:52.680
the U.S. 7th Circuit
Court of Appeals

00:49:52.680 --> 00:49:54.700
ruled two American citizens

00:49:54.700 --> 00:49:56.920
allegedly tortured
at a U.S. military base

00:49:56.920 --> 00:50:00.530
have no right to sue Rumsfeld
and other U.S. officials.

00:50:00.530 --> 00:50:03.500
The plaintiffs, Donald Vance
and Nathan Ertel,

00:50:03.500 --> 00:50:05.450
were reportedly
arrested and tortured

00:50:05.450 --> 00:50:07.270
after collaborating with the FBI

00:50:07.270 --> 00:50:09.980
in an investigation
of their employer in Iraq,

00:50:09.980 --> 00:50:13.970
the private security
company Shield Group Security.

00:50:13.970 --> 00:50:16.510
The company subsequently
revoked the men’s credentials

00:50:16.510 --> 00:50:18.710
for entering Iraq’s
so-called Green Zone,

00:50:18.710 --> 00:50:20.000
effectively barring them

00:50:20.000 --> 00:50:21.810
from the safest part
of the country.

00:50:21.810 --> 00:50:23.940
Shortly after,
they were arrested

00:50:23.940 --> 00:50:26.530
and detained by
U.S. troops at Camp Cropper,

00:50:26.530 --> 00:50:29.830
where they faced physical
and psychological torture.

00:50:29.830 --> 00:50:31.670
The two men were
eventually released

00:50:31.670 --> 00:50:33.900
and never charged with a crime.

00:50:33.900 --> 00:50:36.610
Last Wednesday’s decision
overturns two previous

00:50:36.610 --> 00:50:39.280
court rulings
allowing the case to proceed.

00:50:39.280 --> 00:50:42.040
The Obama administration has
followed the Bush administration

00:50:42.040 --> 00:50:43.850
in seeking
the lawsuit’s dismissal.

00:50:43.850 --> 00:50:46.750
Glenn Greenwald, your response
to these developments?

00:50:46.750 --> 00:50:47.440
GLENN GREENWALD: Well,
unfortunately,

00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:49.400
this is an extremely
common development.

00:50:49.400 --> 00:50:51.930
Of all the institutions
that have so profoundly failed

00:50:51.930 --> 00:50:55.160
in their duties in the aftermath
of 9/11—the Congress,

00:50:55.160 --> 00:50:56.800
the media, the citizenry,

00:50:56.800 --> 00:50:58.800
to some extent—
the federal judiciary

00:50:58.800 --> 00:51:00.420
is probably
the most disgraceful,

00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:03.450
because they are supposed to be
the court of last resort,

00:51:03.450 --> 00:51:07.590
the branch that is designed
to hold officials

00:51:07.590 --> 00:51:09.280
in the executive
branch accountable.

00:51:09.280 --> 00:51:11.430
And to me, the most
extraordinary fact

00:51:11.430 --> 00:51:12.730
of the 9/11 era

00:51:12.730 --> 00:51:14.830
is not that no
government officials

00:51:14.830 --> 00:51:16.780
who committed these
egregious crimes or torture

00:51:16.780 --> 00:51:18.910
and warrantless eavesdropping,
rendition, invasions,

00:51:18.910 --> 00:51:20.390
have been held
accountable—that

00:51:20.390 --> 00:51:22.170
is an amazing fact.

00:51:22.170 --> 00:51:23.600
The more amazing fact

00:51:23.600 --> 00:51:25.220
is that not a single victim

00:51:25.220 --> 00:51:27.090
of the war-on-terror abuses

00:51:27.090 --> 00:51:30.040
have been allowed even
to have their day in court,

00:51:30.040 --> 00:51:31.580
let alone to achieve justice.

00:51:31.580 --> 00:51:34.090
In each and every case,
the courthouse doors

00:51:34.090 --> 00:51:36.060
have been slammed
in their face

00:51:36.060 --> 00:51:37.820
by having courts invoke either

00:51:37.820 --> 00:51:40.960
claims of radical secrecy
or government immunity,

00:51:40.960 --> 00:51:42.490
the idea that
our government officials

00:51:42.490 --> 00:51:45.320
are immune from the law,
from any consequences,

00:51:45.320 --> 00:51:47.350
even when they commit
the most egregious crimes.

00:51:47.350 --> 00:51:49.520
That, I think,
is what history will view

00:51:49.520 --> 00:51:52.470
as the most profound failure
in the wake of 9/11.

00:51:52.470 --> 00:51:54.070
AMY GOODMAN: Glenn Greenwald,
we want to thank you very much

00:51:54.070 --> 00:51:56.130
for being with us,
blogger and writer

00:51:56.130 --> 00:51:58.300
for The Guardian.
His latest book,

00:51:58.300 --> 00:52:01.190
[With] Liberty
and Justice for Some.

00:52:01.190 --> 00:52:02.250
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy
Now!,

00:52:02.250 --> 00:52:04.560
democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report,

00:52:04.560 --> 00:52:06.490
as we wrap up today
with Noam Chomsky.

00:52:06.490 --> 00:52:07.560
Nermeen?

00:52:07.560 --> 00:52:09.140
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Israel
and Palestinian leaders

00:52:09.140 --> 00:52:11.550
in Gaza have agreed
to a tacit truce

00:52:11.550 --> 00:52:14.300
following days of violence
in the Gaza Strip.

00:52:14.300 --> 00:52:16.830
At least seven Palestinians,
including four civilians,

00:52:16.830 --> 00:52:19.440
have been killed in Israeli
attacks on Gaza since Saturday.

00:52:19.440 --> 00:52:21.840
Eight Israeli civilians
have also been wounded

00:52:21.840 --> 00:52:23.060
by Palestinian rockets.

00:52:23.060 --> 00:52:24.500
The temporary ceasefire

00:52:24.500 --> 00:52:26.080
was brokered by
the Egyptian government,

00:52:26.080 --> 00:52:27.660
but both sides say
they’re prepared

00:52:27.660 --> 00:52:29.160
to resume attacks
if it fails.

00:52:29.160 --> 00:52:31.960
AMY GOODMAN: Well, on Sunday,
I spoke about the situation

00:52:31.960 --> 00:52:34.300
in Gaza with the world-renowned
political dissident,

00:52:34.300 --> 00:52:37.060
linguist, author,
MIT professor, Noam Chomsky.

00:52:37.060 --> 00:52:39.760
He was speaking in Princeton
at the 32nd anniversary

00:52:39.760 --> 00:52:41.880
of the Coalition
of Peace Action.

00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:46.560
Noam Chomsky recently returned
from his first visit to Gaza,

00:52:46.560 --> 00:52:48.410
which he entered from
the Egyptian side of the Rafah

00:52:48.410 --> 00:52:50.440
Crossing as a member
of an academic delegation

00:52:50.440 --> 00:52:53.360
attending a conference
at Gaza’s Islamic University.

00:52:53.360 --> 00:52:56.420
This is Noam Chomsky talking
about his experience there.

00:52:57.060 --> 00:53:01.440
NOAM CHOMSKY: It’s kind of
amazing and inspiring

00:53:01.440 --> 00:53:04.730
to see people
managing somehow to survive

00:53:04.730 --> 00:53:07.190
in—as

00:53:07.190 --> 00:53:08.820
essentially caged animals

00:53:08.820 --> 00:53:14.080
and subject to constant, random,

00:53:14.080 --> 00:53:16.060
sadistic punishment

00:53:16.060 --> 00:53:19.030
only to humiliate them,
no pretext.

00:53:19.030 --> 00:53:24.160
They’re—Israel and
the United States

00:53:24.160 --> 00:53:26.080
keep them alive, basically.

00:53:26.080 --> 00:53:28.170
They don’t want them
to starve to death.

00:53:28.830 --> 00:53:30.550
But the life is set up

00:53:30.550 --> 00:53:33.580
so that you can’t have
a dignified, decent life.

00:53:33.580 --> 00:53:36.360
In fact, one of the words you
hear most often is "dignity."

00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:39.270
They would like to
have dignified lives.

00:53:39.270 --> 00:53:42.760
And the standard
Israeli position

00:53:42.760 --> 00:53:45.000
is they shouldn’t
raise their heads.

00:53:45.000 --> 00:53:48.220
And it’s a pressure cooker,
could blow up.

00:53:48.220 --> 00:53:51.370
You know, people can’t live
like that forever.

00:53:52.920 --> 00:53:55.080
AMY GOODMAN: You described it
in a piece you wrote

00:53:55.080 --> 00:53:57.390
as an "open-air prison."

00:53:57.390 --> 00:53:58.920
NOAM CHOMSKY: It’s an
open-air prison.

00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:00.550
As soon as you—you know,

00:54:00.550 --> 00:54:01.800
we’ve all been in jail

00:54:01.800 --> 00:54:04.210
for civil disobedience
and so on.

00:54:04.210 --> 00:54:06.240
The overwhelming feeling

00:54:06.240 --> 00:54:08.750
everyone gets is somebody else

00:54:08.750 --> 00:54:11.090
is in total control of you.

00:54:11.090 --> 00:54:13.840
There’s an arbitrary authority

00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:16.620
who can control
anything you do.

00:54:16.620 --> 00:54:18.420
Stand up, sit down,

00:54:18.420 --> 00:54:22.470
you know,
find something to eat,

00:54:22.470 --> 00:54:24.260
go to the bathroom—
whatever it may be,

00:54:24.260 --> 00:54:26.170
they all determine it;
you can’t do anything.

00:54:26.170 --> 00:54:29.670
Now that’s basically
what it’s like living there.

00:54:29.670 --> 00:54:32.560
And, you know,

00:54:32.560 --> 00:54:36.100
there’s—people
find ways to adapt,

00:54:36.100 --> 00:54:39.520
but it’s just
a constant—it’s

00:54:39.520 --> 00:54:43.000
constant subjugation
to an external force,

00:54:43.000 --> 00:54:47.230
which has no purpose
except to humiliate you.

00:54:47.230 --> 00:54:48.980
Of course, they have
pretexts—everybody

00:54:48.980 --> 00:54:52.370
has pretexts—but
they don’t make any sense.

00:54:52.370 --> 00:54:54.200
AMY GOODMAN: This was
the first time you were there,

00:54:54.200 --> 00:54:56.360
though you’ve written
about this for decades.

00:54:56.360 --> 00:54:57.780
NOAM CHOMSKY: I’ve written
about it forever,

00:54:57.780 --> 00:54:58.990
and I’ve tried to get

00:54:58.990 --> 00:55:01.080
in a couple of times
from the Israeli side,

00:55:01.080 --> 00:55:02.300
but couldn’t—it was
always closed.

00:55:02.300 --> 00:55:03.830
So this is the first time
I made it,

00:55:03.830 --> 00:55:05.110
and came through Egypt.

00:55:05.110 --> 00:55:07.630
AMY GOODMAN: And how hard was it
to get through from Egypt?

00:55:07.630 --> 00:55:10.650
NOAM CHOMSKY: There’s a lot
of bureaucratic hassles,

00:55:10.650 --> 00:55:13.460
and the border
is still apparently

00:55:13.460 --> 00:55:15.790
controlled by the Mukhabarat,

00:55:15.790 --> 00:55:17.370
you know,
the old security services

00:55:17.370 --> 00:55:20.620
who were close to—I mean,

00:55:20.620 --> 00:55:21.900
they were under Mubarak.

00:55:21.900 --> 00:55:23.500
They’re close to the Mossad,

00:55:23.500 --> 00:55:27.320
close to Israeli—to the CIA.

00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:28.990
And a lot of it—it’s hard

00:55:28.990 --> 00:55:31.300
to know how much
is just bureaucrats

00:55:31.300 --> 00:55:33.560
trying to make life
difficult for you

00:55:33.560 --> 00:55:36.580
and how much is
planned harassment.

00:55:36.580 --> 00:55:38.530
I mean, for people like us,
you know, what does it matter?

00:55:38.530 --> 00:55:40.150
So we wasted two days.

00:55:40.150 --> 00:55:43.400
But for the Gazans,
it’s no joke.

00:55:43.400 --> 00:55:46.030
I mean, any—if you want
to go through something

00:55:46.030 --> 00:55:47.440
like passport control,

00:55:47.440 --> 00:55:49.040
you sit for three hours,

00:55:49.040 --> 00:55:52.080
while they—doing
pointless things.

00:55:52.080 --> 00:55:53.810
That’s just more humiliation.

00:55:53.810 --> 00:55:54.550
AMY GOODMAN: While you
were there,

00:55:54.550 --> 00:55:56.780
the Freedom—another Freedom

00:55:56.780 --> 00:55:58.290
Flotilla ship tried

00:55:58.290 --> 00:56:00.730
to get in through
from Scandinavia.

00:56:00.730 --> 00:56:03.330
What was the response on land?

00:56:03.330 --> 00:56:05.360
NOAM CHOMSKY: The Estelle.
Yeah, we had a—there

00:56:05.360 --> 00:56:07.200
was a lot of excitement.

00:56:07.200 --> 00:56:08.590
The people like
to—you know,

00:56:08.590 --> 00:56:10.110
obviously are very happy

00:56:10.110 --> 00:56:12.340
to know that somebody
knows they’re there,

00:56:12.340 --> 00:56:15.140
and that people are actually
willing to risk something,

00:56:15.140 --> 00:56:17.970
because it’s not a joke,
you know,

00:56:17.970 --> 00:56:20.310
to try to break through.

00:56:20.310 --> 00:56:22.400
And we had a press
conference at the port.

00:56:23.080 --> 00:56:27.000
And to my amazement,
it was actually covered

00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:30.850
in the most
reactionary newspaper in Israel,

00:56:30.850 --> 00:56:32.840
Sheldon Adelson’s newspaper,

00:56:32.840 --> 00:56:34.540
Israel Hayom.
Look it up.

00:56:34.540 --> 00:56:36.940
They had a fair report of it,

00:56:36.940 --> 00:56:39.680
quoted the press conference,
even had a clip of it.

00:56:39.680 --> 00:56:43.180
But for the people there,
it’s just a sign:

00:56:43.180 --> 00:56:45.350
You haven’t
forgotten us, you know?

00:56:45.350 --> 00:56:46.920
Maybe we’ll get out somehow.

00:56:48.310 --> 00:56:50.490
AMY GOODMAN: And we’re speaking
for the first time

00:56:50.490 --> 00:56:52.630
after President Obama
was just re-elected.

00:56:52.630 --> 00:56:53.490
Your thoughts?

00:56:53.490 --> 00:56:57.290
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well, there are
two good things about it.

00:56:57.290 --> 00:57:00.170
One is, the worst didn’t happen,
and it might have.

00:57:00.170 --> 00:57:02.180
The second is,
it’s over.

00:57:02.180 --> 00:57:04.590
So we can put it behind us

00:57:04.590 --> 00:57:06.100
and get back to work,

00:57:06.100 --> 00:57:07.960
exactly what you said today.

00:57:07.960 --> 00:57:11.100
I mean, the whole electoral
extravaganza, in my view,

00:57:11.100 --> 00:57:13.610
ought to take maybe five minutes

00:57:13.610 --> 00:57:16.390
of the time of an activist,

00:57:16.390 --> 00:57:18.360
because it’s a farce.

00:57:18.360 --> 00:57:20.320
I mean, there are
some differences;

00:57:20.320 --> 00:57:23.460
it’s not zero impact, you know.

00:57:23.460 --> 00:57:25.510
So you decide, OK,
I’m going to deal

00:57:25.510 --> 00:57:27.190
with it this way—five minutes,

00:57:27.190 --> 00:57:29.580
finish—now I go back
to what matters:

00:57:29.580 --> 00:57:31.630
the changing
of the circumstances

00:57:31.630 --> 00:57:33.980
so we don’t have
to endure things

00:57:33.980 --> 00:57:36.860
like this every four years.

00:57:36.860 --> 00:57:39.500
AMY GOODMAN: And with something
like Gaza, what you’ve covered,

00:57:39.500 --> 00:57:43.540
as you said, forever,
what gives you hope?

00:57:44.160 --> 00:57:46.580
NOAM CHOMSKY: Well,
it’s the usual thing

00:57:46.580 --> 00:57:47.940
that you see everywhere,

00:57:47.940 --> 00:57:51.180
that you’ve seen everywhere
a lot more than I have:

00:57:51.180 --> 00:57:53.140
people’s resilience.

00:57:53.140 --> 00:57:54.680
They just don’t give up.

00:57:54.680 --> 00:57:57.430
Under the worst conditions,
horrendous conditions,

00:57:57.430 --> 00:58:00.700
people still,
you know,

00:58:00.700 --> 00:58:04.420
fight for their rights
and don’t just succumb.

00:58:04.420 --> 00:58:07.810
And, you know, it’s a lesson
for people from the West.

00:58:07.810 --> 00:58:11.030
I mean, you know,
we talk about repression,

00:58:11.030 --> 00:58:13.240
but, you know,

00:58:13.240 --> 00:58:15.050
undetectable by comparison

00:58:15.050 --> 00:58:17.380
with what most people
in the world face.

00:58:17.380 --> 00:58:22.270
And if they can struggle
on under really harsh

00:58:22.270 --> 00:58:23.930
and brutal conditions,

00:58:23.930 --> 00:58:25.900
tells us we ought to be
doing a lot more.

00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:28.670
AMY GOODMAN: Professor
Noam Chomsky,

00:58:28.670 --> 00:58:30.900
just back from his
first trip to Gaza.

00:58:31.570 --> 00:58:32.800
This is Democracy Now!,

00:58:32.800 --> 00:58:34.520
democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

00:58:34.520 --> 00:58:36.480
Our previous best,
Glenn Greenwald,

00:58:36.480 --> 00:58:38.080
will be speaking
at Bard College tonight

00:58:38.080 --> 00:58:40.430
at 7:30 at Bito Auditorium.