WEBVTT 00:00:04.990 --> 00:00:16.940 From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now! 00:00:18.770 --> 00:00:20.950 We are a task force. We have equipment to be able 00:00:20.950 --> 00:00:22.520 to respond on the ground. 00:00:22.520 --> 00:00:23.980 We have artillery equipment. 00:00:23.980 --> 00:00:26.160 We have the means to fight in three dimensions. 00:00:26.160 --> 00:00:28.400 We are heavily equipped here in the territory. 00:00:28.400 --> 00:00:30.900 The French bombing of Mali continues 00:00:30.900 --> 00:00:33.320 as the United States prepares to send drones 00:00:33.320 --> 00:00:36.580 or other surveillance aircraft to the West African nation. 00:00:36.580 --> 00:00:38.590 We’ll go to Bamako for the latest. 00:00:38.590 --> 00:00:40.060 Then, to Vietnam. 00:00:40.060 --> 00:00:44.280 Many very highly decorated veterans testified 00:00:44.280 --> 00:00:46.880 to war crimes committed in Southeast 00:00:46.880 --> 00:00:49.950 Asia—not isolated incidents, 00:00:49.950 --> 00:00:52.710 but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis 00:00:52.710 --> 00:00:54.610 with the full awareness of officers 00:00:54.610 --> 00:00:56.180 at all levels of command. 00:00:57.280 --> 00:00:59.490 As President Obama nominates 00:00:59.490 --> 00:01:01.730 Vietnam veterans John Kerry 00:01:01.730 --> 00:01:04.490 and Chuck Hagel to Cabinet posts, 00:01:04.490 --> 00:01:06.120 we’ll speak with Nick Turse, 00:01:06.120 --> 00:01:08.300 author of an explosive new book, 00:01:08.300 --> 00:01:10.580 Kill Anything That Moves: 00:01:10.580 --> 00:01:13.310 The Real American War in Vietnam. 00:01:13.810 --> 00:01:15.220 All that and more, coming up. 00:01:19.850 --> 00:01:21.390 Welcome to Democracy Now!, 00:01:21.390 --> 00:01:24.080 democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. 00:01:24.080 --> 00:01:25.410 I’m Amy Goodman. 00:01:25.410 --> 00:01:27.740 President Obama is preparing to unveil 00:01:27.740 --> 00:01:31.080 a comprehensive plan to address gun violence 00:01:31.080 --> 00:01:33.960 that is expected to include legislation tightening 00:01:33.960 --> 00:01:36.710 background checks on potential gun buyers, 00:01:36.710 --> 00:01:39.490 as well as 19 separate actions Obama 00:01:39.490 --> 00:01:42.100 could take using executive power. 00:01:42.100 --> 00:01:43.640 At a news conference Monday, 00:01:43.640 --> 00:01:44.860 Obama confirmed 00:01:44.860 --> 00:01:46.550 he would support proposals 00:01:46.550 --> 00:01:48.270 for a new assault weapons ban. 00:01:48.270 --> 00:01:51.350 He said a task force led by Vice President Joe Biden 00:01:51.350 --> 00:01:54.710 had presented him with a list of "commonsense steps" 00:01:54.710 --> 00:01:56.720 to prevent shootings like the one at Sandy 00:01:56.720 --> 00:01:58.400 Hook Elementary School. 00:01:58.400 --> 00:02:01.690 Obama also alluded to potential resistance 00:02:01.690 --> 00:02:03.870 from opponents of gun control. 00:02:03.870 --> 00:02:05.470 President Obama: "Part of the challenge 00:02:05.470 --> 00:02:06.870 that we confront is, 00:02:06.870 --> 00:02:09.780 is that even the slightest, 00:02:09.780 --> 00:02:12.570 slightest hint of some sensible, 00:02:13.740 --> 00:02:17.310 responsible legislation 00:02:17.310 --> 00:02:20.780 in this area fans this notion 00:02:20.780 --> 00:02:23.420 that somehow here it comes 00:02:23.420 --> 00:02:25.630 and that everybody’s guns are going to be taken away. 00:02:28.290 --> 00:02:31.600 It’s unfortunate, but that’s the case. 00:02:32.270 --> 00:02:34.190 And if you look at over the first four years 00:02:34.190 --> 00:02:35.330 of my administration, 00:02:35.330 --> 00:02:37.330 we’ve tried to tighten up and enforce some of the laws 00:02:37.330 --> 00:02:38.540 that were already on the books. 00:02:39.620 --> 00:02:41.850 But it would be pretty hard 00:02:41.850 --> 00:02:44.680 to argue that somehow gun owners 00:02:44.680 --> 00:02:46.520 have had their rights infringed." 00:02:46.520 --> 00:02:49.340 A new poll shows that support for gun 00:02:49.340 --> 00:02:51.350 control measures is on the rise. 00:02:51.350 --> 00:02:53.640 An ABC News/Washington Post survey 00:02:53.640 --> 00:02:56.220 found 54 percent of Americans 00:02:56.220 --> 00:02:59.010 are in favor of stricter gun control laws in general, 00:02:59.010 --> 00:03:00.940 the highest in five years. 00:03:00.940 --> 00:03:02.870 Nearly 60 percent support a ban 00:03:02.870 --> 00:03:05.650 on high-capacity ammunition clips. 00:03:05.650 --> 00:03:07.760 Amidst the push for greater gun control, 00:03:07.760 --> 00:03:11.250 many across the country are reportedly rushing to buy guns 00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:14.860 and ammunition before any potential restrictions kick in. 00:03:14.860 --> 00:03:18.530 An analysis by an industry trade group found December set 00:03:18.530 --> 00:03:21.110 a record for the number of criminal background checks 00:03:21.110 --> 00:03:23.510 often conducted before gun sales, 00:03:23.510 --> 00:03:26.160 suggesting a massive spike in purchases. 00:03:26.760 --> 00:03:29.330 Lawmakers in New York have reached an agreement with Gov. 00:03:29.330 --> 00:03:32.150 Andrew Cuomo for what is being hailed 00:03:32.150 --> 00:03:33.830 as the toughest gun control law 00:03:33.830 --> 00:03:35.210 in the United States 00:03:35.210 --> 00:03:37.450 and the first since the massacre in Newtown. 00:03:38.090 --> 00:03:39.980 Assembly members are expected to vote 00:03:39.980 --> 00:03:41.380 on the legislative package today 00:03:41.380 --> 00:03:43.680 after it passed the New York Senate late Monday. 00:03:43.680 --> 00:03:45.410 The proposal would expand 00:03:45.410 --> 00:03:47.290 New York’s ban on assault weapons 00:03:47.290 --> 00:03:50.110 and authorize law enforcement to confiscate guns 00:03:50.110 --> 00:03:53.160 from mental health patients if a professional reports 00:03:53.160 --> 00:03:55.600 they are likely to hurt themselves or others. 00:03:56.200 --> 00:03:57.970 On Monday, the Newtown massacre’s 00:03:57.970 --> 00:03:59.460 one-month anniversary, 00:03:59.460 --> 00:04:01.780 a group of parents of Newtown victims 00:04:01.780 --> 00:04:04.730 and surviving students unveiled a new initiative 00:04:04.730 --> 00:04:06.210 to tackle gun violence 00:04:06.210 --> 00:04:08.520 and mental illness in the United States. 00:04:08.520 --> 00:04:11.760 Grieving parents Nicole Hockley and Jeremy Richman, 00:04:11.760 --> 00:04:13.340 as well as the group’s co-founder, 00:04:13.340 --> 00:04:14.610 Tim Makris, 00:04:14.610 --> 00:04:17.320 described the Sandy Hook Promise as an effort 00:04:17.320 --> 00:04:19.210 to spark a national conversation 00:04:19.210 --> 00:04:20.790 on how to prevent future tragedies. 00:04:20.790 --> 00:04:22.000 Nicole Hockley, mother of victim Dylan Hockley: 00:04:22.000 --> 00:04:25.870 "I do not want to be someone sharing my experience 00:04:25.870 --> 00:04:27.970 and consoling another parent next time. 00:04:28.720 --> 00:04:30.710 I do not want there to be a next time. 00:04:32.330 --> 00:04:34.400 The Sandy Hook Promise is the start of our change." 00:04:34.400 --> 00:04:35.530 Jeremy Richman, father of victim Avielle Richman: 00:04:35.530 --> 00:04:38.350 "We need to face and take action on hard issues. 00:04:40.230 --> 00:04:42.530 There is not going to be one simple solution. 00:04:44.780 --> 00:04:47.160 But we feel it is essential 00:04:47.160 --> 00:04:49.360 to get a deeper understanding of mental health 00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:50.900 in terms of research, education and policy." 00:04:50.900 --> 00:04:52.360 Tim Makris, co-founder of Sandy Hook Promise: 00:04:52.360 --> 00:04:54.670 "When you look at what’s been done in the past, 00:04:54.670 --> 00:04:56.310 it hasn’t gotten us very far. 00:04:57.220 --> 00:04:59.200 We have to do something different. 00:04:59.200 --> 00:05:01.670 And we believe a national discussion, 00:05:01.670 --> 00:05:05.080 putting aside preconceived notions, 00:05:05.080 --> 00:05:07.970 will have us move forward as a nation." 00:05:07.970 --> 00:05:10.810 Appearing with the Sandy Hook Promise, Connecticut Sen. 00:05:10.810 --> 00:05:14.390 Chris Murphy predicted a defeat of NRA efforts 00:05:14.390 --> 00:05:16.860 to block the approval of a new assault weapons ban. 00:05:16.860 --> 00:05:19.150 Sen. Chris Murphy: "It’s the NRA’s job to say 00:05:19.150 --> 00:05:21.240 that no gun control can pass Congress. 00:05:21.240 --> 00:05:23.080 But they’re wrong, and they’re going to see 00:05:23.080 --> 00:05:25.290 they’re wrong as this president 00:05:25.290 --> 00:05:27.670 brings the full weight of his office to the House 00:05:27.670 --> 00:05:30.830 and to the Senate and as Republicans and Democrats 00:05:30.830 --> 00:05:32.920 that previously pledged their fealty 00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:36.430 to the NRA start turning a different direction. 00:05:36.430 --> 00:05:38.070 I think today is an important day 00:05:38.070 --> 00:05:40.920 because it now gives a really clear forum 00:05:40.920 --> 00:05:42.340 for people across Newtown, 00:05:42.340 --> 00:05:43.870 across the state and across this nation 00:05:43.870 --> 00:05:47.350 to make it clear that the status quo is not OK 00:05:47.350 --> 00:05:50.910 when it comes to the laws on guns in this country." 00:05:50.910 --> 00:05:53.790 New figures show U.S. military suicides 00:05:53.790 --> 00:05:56.520 broke another all-time record last year. 00:05:56.520 --> 00:05:57.820 According to the Pentagon, 00:05:57.820 --> 00:06:00.110 349 active-duty soldiers 00:06:00.110 --> 00:06:02.190 took their own lives in 2012, 00:06:02.190 --> 00:06:05.920 far exceeding the number of U.S. troops killed in battle. 00:06:05.920 --> 00:06:08.640 The previous record of 310 suicides 00:06:08.640 --> 00:06:11.540 within army ranks was set in 2009. 00:06:11.540 --> 00:06:13.600 The figures do not include veterans 00:06:13.600 --> 00:06:15.630 no longer enlisted in the military. 00:06:16.210 --> 00:06:18.630 President Obama has ruled out a new round of talks 00:06:18.630 --> 00:06:19.370 with Republicans 00:06:19.370 --> 00:06:21.170 on raising the government’s borrowing limit 00:06:21.170 --> 00:06:23.620 in return for cuts to government spending. 00:06:23.620 --> 00:06:25.730 The United States faces a new deadline 00:06:25.730 --> 00:06:28.590 of potentially defaulting on its debt next month 00:06:28.590 --> 00:06:30.980 unless the debt ceiling can be increased. 00:06:30.980 --> 00:06:33.520 Republicans have maintained their stance 00:06:33.520 --> 00:06:36.110 that any borrowing hike must be offset by 00:06:36.110 --> 00:06:37.970 slashing government spending. 00:06:37.970 --> 00:06:39.820 At his White House news conference on Monday, 00:06:39.820 --> 00:06:42.900 Obama called the Republican demand unacceptable. 00:06:42.900 --> 00:06:45.590 President Obama: "Republicans in Congress have two choices here: 00:06:45.590 --> 00:06:50.000 They can act responsibly and pay America’s bills, 00:06:51.180 --> 00:06:53.320 or they can act irresponsibly and put America 00:06:53.320 --> 00:06:58.150 through another economic crisis. 00:06:58.150 --> 00:07:00.640 But they will not collect a ransom in exchange 00:07:00.640 --> 00:07:02.240 for not crashing the American economy. 00:07:04.720 --> 00:07:06.930 The financial well-being of the American people 00:07:06.930 --> 00:07:08.650 is not leverage to be used. 00:07:09.480 --> 00:07:12.690 The full faith and credit of the United States of America 00:07:12.690 --> 00:07:14.440 is not a bargaining chip." 00:07:14.440 --> 00:07:17.060 The death toll from a Syrian government air strike 00:07:17.060 --> 00:07:19.780 on the northern town of Azaz 00:07:19.780 --> 00:07:21.940 has reached at least 20 people in addition 00:07:21.940 --> 00:07:23.480 to around 100 wounded. 00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:25.780 The victims were gathered in a public market 00:07:25.780 --> 00:07:29.620 when Syrian warplanes bombed them from the sky Sunday. 00:07:29.620 --> 00:07:32.290 The group Doctors Without Borders says the attacks 00:07:32.290 --> 00:07:35.380 followed earlier bombings of local health facilities, 00:07:35.380 --> 00:07:37.220 making it nearly impossible 00:07:37.220 --> 00:07:39.480 to adequately treat the victims. 00:07:39.480 --> 00:07:41.840 On Monday, 151 people, 00:07:41.840 --> 00:07:45.300 including 21 children, were killed across Syria, 00:07:45.300 --> 00:07:47.800 according to the opposition group Local Coordination 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:49.110 Committees of Syria. 00:07:50.230 --> 00:07:53.530 The Israeli military has shot dead a Palestinian teenager 00:07:53.530 --> 00:07:55.130 in the West Bank. 00:07:55.130 --> 00:07:58.740 A classmate of the slain teen said soldiers opened fire 00:07:58.740 --> 00:08:00.990 on a group of students who were throwing stones 00:08:00.990 --> 00:08:02.650 near the separation barrier. 00:08:02.650 --> 00:08:04.520 Doctors say 17-year-old Samir 00:08:04.520 --> 00:08:07.400 Awad was shot three times before he died. 00:08:07.400 --> 00:08:09.800 In Egypt, at least 19 people are dead 00:08:09.800 --> 00:08:13.320 and more than 100 wounded after two railroad cars 00:08:13.320 --> 00:08:15.060 derailed south of Cairo. 00:08:15.060 --> 00:08:16.980 State-owned media said the train 00:08:16.980 --> 00:08:18.640 was carrying Egyptian soldiers 00:08:18.640 --> 00:08:20.560 en route to Egypt’s capital. 00:08:21.540 --> 00:08:24.310 The top U.N. human rights official is calling 00:08:24.310 --> 00:08:27.010 for an international probe of alleged crimes 00:08:27.010 --> 00:08:30.370 against humanity by the government of North Korea. 00:08:30.370 --> 00:08:33.690 On Monday, High Commissioner for Human Rights Navi 00:08:33.690 --> 00:08:35.340 Pillay said the probe should focus 00:08:35.340 --> 00:08:36.840 on North Korea’s notorious, 00:08:36.840 --> 00:08:39.020 but secretive, prison camps believed 00:08:39.020 --> 00:08:41.000 to hold up to 200,000 people 00:08:41.000 --> 00:08:42.560 in brutal conditions. 00:08:42.560 --> 00:08:45.650 U.N. spokesperson Rupert Colville said 00:08:45.650 --> 00:08:48.220 an international investigation is long overdue. 00:08:48.220 --> 00:08:50.430 Rupert Colville: "Pretty much all we know 00:08:50.430 --> 00:08:52.100 is coming from refugees 00:08:52.100 --> 00:08:53.520 who have escaped from North Korea, 00:08:54.070 --> 00:08:57.490 but the picture they paint is really terrible. 00:08:57.490 --> 00:08:59.150 You’re talking about a situation 00:08:59.150 --> 00:09:01.590 that has no parallel anywhere else in the world. 00:09:01.590 --> 00:09:04.200 The allegations of what’s taking place in North Korea, 00:09:04.200 --> 00:09:07.360 especially in this prison camp system, 00:09:07.360 --> 00:09:10.840 are really of enormous gravity 00:09:11.590 --> 00:09:12.790 and could, in some cases, 00:09:12.790 --> 00:09:14.320 amount to crimes against humanity." 00:09:14.930 --> 00:09:18.010 Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden of Oregon has asked CIA 00:09:18.010 --> 00:09:19.240 nominee and White House 00:09:19.240 --> 00:09:21.780 counterterrorism adviser John Brennan 00:09:21.780 --> 00:09:24.310 to explain the administration’s legal basis 00:09:24.310 --> 00:09:27.200 for targeting U.S. citizens overseas. 00:09:27.200 --> 00:09:30.570 On Monday, Wyden released a letter to Brennan ahead 00:09:30.570 --> 00:09:33.860 of Brennan’s confirmation hearings to head the CIA. 00:09:33.860 --> 00:09:35.180 Wyden wrote: 00:09:35.180 --> 00:09:36.490 "For the Executive Branch 00:09:36.490 --> 00:09:38.640 to claim that intelligence agencies 00:09:38.640 --> 00:09:41.250 have the authority to knowingly kill American citizens, 00:09:41.250 --> 00:09:43.450 but refuse to provide Congress with any 00:09:43.450 --> 00:09:45.620 and all legal opinions that explain 00:09:45.620 --> 00:09:48.060 ... this authority represents an alarming 00:09:48.060 --> 00:09:51.360 and indefensible assertion of executive prerogative." 00:09:52.050 --> 00:09:55.620 Brennan has reportedly overseen the Obama administration’s 00:09:55.620 --> 00:09:57.380 targeted assassination program, 00:09:57.380 --> 00:09:59.920 known as the "disposition matrix," 00:09:59.920 --> 00:10:01.460 during his White House stint 00:10:01.460 --> 00:10:03.450 and could likely continue that role 00:10:03.450 --> 00:10:05.250 at the helm of the CIA. 00:10:05.960 --> 00:10:09.540 Secretary of Homeland Security Janet Napolitano will remain 00:10:09.540 --> 00:10:11.570 in her post for Obama’s second term, 00:10:11.570 --> 00:10:13.330 according to White House officials. 00:10:13.330 --> 00:10:17.170 Napolitano, who previously served as Arizona governor, 00:10:17.170 --> 00:10:20.210 has been criticized by immigrant rights advocates 00:10:20.210 --> 00:10:23.510 for presiding over a record number of deportations 00:10:23.510 --> 00:10:25.340 in the 2012 fiscal year. 00:10:25.910 --> 00:10:27.640 In a statement, a representative 00:10:27.640 --> 00:10:30.580 from the National Day Laborer Organizing Network said: 00:10:30.580 --> 00:10:32.610 "ICE is a rogue agency, 00:10:32.610 --> 00:10:35.140 and Secretary Napolitano has failed to reign it 00:10:35.140 --> 00:10:37.460 in during her tenure at DHS." 00:10:37.460 --> 00:10:41.330 Napolitano’s announcement comes as the Obama administration 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:43.430 is said to be preparing to unveil 00:10:43.430 --> 00:10:45.630 a new push for immigration reform 00:10:45.630 --> 00:10:47.490 in the coming months. 00:10:47.490 --> 00:10:49.880 Federal prosecutors have dropped the charges 00:10:49.880 --> 00:10:51.670 against computer programmer 00:10:51.670 --> 00:10:54.420 and cyber-activist Aaron Swartz 00:10:54.420 --> 00:10:58.770 following his suicide on Friday at the age of 26. 00:10:58.770 --> 00:11:00.530 In an email to The Boston Globe, 00:11:01.060 --> 00:11:04.710 his attorney wrote the dismissal was "too little too late," 00:11:05.220 --> 00:11:08.900 saying it "would have been welcome this time last week." 00:11:09.740 --> 00:11:13.240 Aaron was facing up to 35 years in prison 00:11:13.240 --> 00:11:14.800 for entering 00:11:14.800 --> 00:11:16.860 the Massachusetts Institute of Technology 00:11:16.860 --> 00:11:19.390 and downloading millions of articles provided 00:11:19.390 --> 00:11:22.490 by the nonprofit research service JSTOR. 00:11:23.050 --> 00:11:25.270 His family had said prosecutors 00:11:25.270 --> 00:11:27.660 were partially to blame for his death. 00:11:28.570 --> 00:11:31.200 A petition on the White House website to remove 00:11:31.200 --> 00:11:33.730 U.S. Attorney Carmen Ortiz from office 00:11:33.730 --> 00:11:35.720 over alleged overreach in the case 00:11:35.720 --> 00:11:39.430 has received more than 25,000 signatures, 00:11:39.430 --> 00:11:42.700 reaching the threshold needed to demand a response 00:11:42.700 --> 00:11:44.300 from the Obama administration. 00:11:44.890 --> 00:11:46.530 Tributes to Aaron Swartz 00:11:46.530 --> 00:11:49.010 are continuing to flood the Internet. 00:11:49.010 --> 00:11:50.960 Academics have posted links 00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:53.470 to PDFs of their own copyrighted work 00:11:53.470 --> 00:11:56.020 using the hashtag "#PDFtribute." 00:11:56.620 --> 00:11:58.680 The group Anonymous hacked the MIT 00:11:58.680 --> 00:12:01.960 website and posted a statement calling the prosecution 00:12:01.960 --> 00:12:04.360 "a grotesque miscarriage of justice, 00:12:04.360 --> 00:12:07.280 a distorted and perverse shadow of the justice 00:12:07.280 --> 00:12:09.350 that Aaron died fighting for." 00:12:11.410 --> 00:12:14.920 A lawyer who represented Aaron Swartz on hacking charges 00:12:14.920 --> 00:12:17.980 said he told federal prosecutors a year ago 00:12:17.980 --> 00:12:20.680 that Aaron was at risk of suicide. 00:12:20.680 --> 00:12:23.350 Attorney Andrew Good told the Associated Press, 00:12:23.870 --> 00:12:25.800 "Their response was, 'Put him in jail, 00:12:25.800 --> 00:12:27.800 he’ll be safe there.'" 00:12:48.890 --> 00:12:52.280 The indigenous-led "Idle No More" movement in Canada 00:12:52.280 --> 00:12:54.100 has called a new global day 00:12:54.100 --> 00:12:56.110 of action for January 28 00:12:56.110 --> 00:12:59.450 following a series of events on Friday around the world. 00:12:59.450 --> 00:13:02.230 Organizers say more than 130 actions 00:13:02.230 --> 00:13:04.030 were held in Canada and worldwide 00:13:04.030 --> 00:13:05.320 in solidarity with Idle 00:13:05.320 --> 00:13:08.460 No More’s call for political transformation, 00:13:08.460 --> 00:13:11.140 indigenous rights and environmental justice. 00:13:11.140 --> 00:13:13.980 A key figure in the movement, Chief Theresa Spence, 00:13:13.980 --> 00:13:16.880 was due to meet with Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper 00:13:16.880 --> 00:13:18.820 and other First Nations leaders, 00:13:18.820 --> 00:13:21.270 but pulled out of the meeting over the exclusion 00:13:21.270 --> 00:13:22.990 of Canada’s governor general 00:13:22.990 --> 00:13:25.890 and in solidarity with Friday’s protests. 00:13:25.890 --> 00:13:29.810 Spence remains on a liquid- diet-only hunger strike. 00:13:30.560 --> 00:13:32.790 The chief executive of a Tennessee-based 00:13:32.790 --> 00:13:36.380 company specializing in weapons training has had his gun permit 00:13:36.380 --> 00:13:37.640 revoked after posting 00:13:37.640 --> 00:13:39.490 a rant threatening violence 00:13:39.490 --> 00:13:42.610 should the federal government impose new gun control laws. 00:13:42.610 --> 00:13:44.110 In his post, James Yeager 00:13:44.110 --> 00:13:46.390 of the firm Tactical Response 00:13:46.390 --> 00:13:49.660 vowed to "start killing people" if gun laws are passed. 00:13:49.660 --> 00:13:51.990 James Yeager: "I’m telling you that if that happens, 00:13:51.990 --> 00:13:53.240 it’s going to spark a civil war, 00:13:53.240 --> 00:13:55.680 and I’ll be glad to fire the first shot. 00:13:55.680 --> 00:13:58.500 I’m not putting up with it. You shouldn’t put up with it. 00:13:58.500 --> 00:14:01.420 And I need all you patriots to start thinking 00:14:01.420 --> 00:14:03.940 about what you’re going to do, load your damn mags, 00:14:03.940 --> 00:14:05.200 make sure your rifle’s clean, 00:14:05.200 --> 00:14:07.290 pack a backpack with some food in it, 00:14:07.290 --> 00:14:08.650 and get ready to fight. 00:14:08.650 --> 00:14:10.950 I’m not [expletive] putting up with this. 00:14:10.950 --> 00:14:13.850 I am not letting my country be ruled by a dictator. 00:14:13.850 --> 00:14:16.560 I’m not letting anybody take my guns! 00:14:16.560 --> 00:14:18.270 If it goes one inch further, 00:14:18.270 --> 00:14:19.900 I’m going to start killing people." 00:14:19.900 --> 00:14:22.900 In response, Tennessee officials have suspended 00:14:22.900 --> 00:14:24.160 Yeager’s weapons permit, 00:14:24.160 --> 00:14:26.390 citing the risk of public harm. 00:14:27.240 --> 00:14:28.500 And those are some of the headlines 00:14:28.500 --> 00:14:31.150 this is Democracy Now, Democracynow.org, 00:14:31.150 --> 00:14:33.160 the War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 00:14:37.930 --> 00:14:39.430 AARON MATÉ: We begin today’s show in the West 00:14:39.430 --> 00:14:41.070 African nation of Mali, 00:14:41.070 --> 00:14:43.430 where the French military has entered the fifth day 00:14:43.430 --> 00:14:45.280 of a large military offensive. 00:14:45.280 --> 00:14:47.170 The campaign aims to oust rebels 00:14:47.170 --> 00:14:50.020 that have held much of country’s north since March, 00:14:50.020 --> 00:14:52.320 an area larger than Afghanistan. 00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:55.550 France currently has 750 troops in Mali, 00:14:55.550 --> 00:14:57.640 but that number is expected to soon triple. 00:14:58.170 --> 00:15:00.130 On Monday, the U.N. Security Council 00:15:00.130 --> 00:15:01.820 expressed support for French intervention 00:15:01.820 --> 00:15:03.160 in its former colony, 00:15:03.160 --> 00:15:06.020 which reportedly came at the request of Mali’s government. 00:15:06.020 --> 00:15:08.490 This is French U.N. Ambassador Gérard Araud. 00:15:09.670 --> 00:15:11.030 AMB. GÉRARD ARAUD: It happened on—I think 00:15:11.030 --> 00:15:12.770 it was on Wednesday or Thursday, 00:15:12.770 --> 00:15:15.120 that suddenly the terrorist armed 00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:17.240 groups have launched an offensive. 00:15:17.240 --> 00:15:19.420 They have taken the city of Konna. 00:15:19.420 --> 00:15:21.530 And at this moment, our assessment 00:15:21.530 --> 00:15:24.780 was that they were totally able to take Bamako. 00:15:25.670 --> 00:15:29.470 And so, we decided that what was at stake 00:15:29.470 --> 00:15:32.110 was the existence of the state of Mali, 00:15:32.110 --> 00:15:34.320 and beyond Mali was the stability 00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:36.010 of all West Africa. 00:15:36.010 --> 00:15:39.380 So it’s with determination, 00:15:39.380 --> 00:15:41.480 but also with reluctance, 00:15:41.480 --> 00:15:45.660 that we have decided that we had no other choice 00:15:45.660 --> 00:15:49.820 that—to launch this military intervention. 00:15:50.470 --> 00:15:53.460 And we again—and we’ll conduct it 00:15:53.460 --> 00:15:56.830 as long as it will be necessary. 00:15:56.830 --> 00:15:59.280 AMY GOODMAN: The U.S. has backed France’s offensive in Mali. 00:15:59.280 --> 00:16:01.890 The Los Angeles Times reports the Obama administration 00:16:01.890 --> 00:16:03.380 is preparing to ferry hundreds 00:16:03.380 --> 00:16:05.480 of additional French troops to Mali. 00:16:05.480 --> 00:16:07.040 In addition, U.S. officials say 00:16:07.040 --> 00:16:09.200 they’re also making plans to send drones 00:16:09.200 --> 00:16:11.230 or other surveillance aircraft. 00:16:11.230 --> 00:16:12.760 Meanwhile, France has also called 00:16:12.760 --> 00:16:15.430 on a force of 3,300 West African troops 00:16:15.430 --> 00:16:17.900 to deploy in support of the Malian army 00:16:17.900 --> 00:16:19.820 faster than originally planned. 00:16:19.820 --> 00:16:24.080 The French strikes in Mali have reportedly killed 11 civilians, 00:16:24.080 --> 00:16:26.870 including three children fleeing the bombardment 00:16:26.870 --> 00:16:28.990 of a camp near the central town of Konna. 00:16:29.540 --> 00:16:32.830 The U.N. estimate says as many as 30,000 00:16:32.830 --> 00:16:35.650 may have been displaced since fighting began last week. 00:16:35.650 --> 00:16:37.560 Ali Naraghi works with the International 00:16:37.560 --> 00:16:39.010 Committee of the Red Cross. 00:16:39.650 --> 00:16:43.910 ALI NARAGHI: Well, the situation is—is of concern to the ICRC, 00:16:43.910 --> 00:16:46.540 is fast deteriorating. 00:16:46.540 --> 00:16:48.440 Mass displacement of population 00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:50.520 is already being observed. 00:16:50.520 --> 00:16:54.430 Casualties are, as well, reported. 00:16:55.370 --> 00:16:57.130 And we’re trying our best 00:16:57.130 --> 00:17:00.980 to address humanitarian needs of the population. 00:17:00.980 --> 00:17:03.540 Internally displaced people 00:17:03.540 --> 00:17:07.720 have now gathered in Mopti, 00:17:07.720 --> 00:17:11.460 fleeing places such as Konna and Douentza 00:17:11.460 --> 00:17:14.190 in the other side of the front line. 00:17:14.190 --> 00:17:16.270 AMY GOODMAN: Well, for more, we’re joined by several guests. 00:17:16.270 --> 00:17:17.930 We’ll begin with May Ying Welsh, 00:17:17.930 --> 00:17:19.770 a reporter for Al Jazeera 00:17:19.770 --> 00:17:22.880 who has been reporting from Mali’s northern region. 00:17:23.450 --> 00:17:25.290 May Ying Welsh, welcome to Democracy Now! 00:17:25.290 --> 00:17:27.410 She’s joining us from Al Jazeera’s headquarters 00:17:27.410 --> 00:17:28.850 in Doha, Qatar. 00:17:28.850 --> 00:17:32.350 Can you give us background on what’s happening right now? 00:17:35.550 --> 00:17:37.100 MAY YING WELSH: Hi, Amy. I can. 00:17:37.100 --> 00:17:38.840 You know, I think one of the things 00:17:38.840 --> 00:17:41.350 that’s gotten lost in a lot of the talk about al-Qaeda 00:17:41.350 --> 00:17:44.310 and mujahideen and all of that is that—is the way 00:17:44.310 --> 00:17:45.890 that this conflict started. 00:17:45.890 --> 00:17:48.330 This conflict started with a movement 00:17:48.330 --> 00:17:50.430 of secular Tuareg separatists 00:17:50.430 --> 00:17:51.630 who rose up 00:17:51.630 --> 00:17:53.530 and demanded an independent state 00:17:54.090 --> 00:17:57.470 and who started to sweep down into the northern two-thirds 00:17:57.980 --> 00:18:01.110 of Mali to take over the area which they consider theirs. 00:18:01.110 --> 00:18:03.900 And they were shadowed in this operation 00:18:03.900 --> 00:18:06.970 by some other Tuaregs 00:18:06.970 --> 00:18:08.560 that had different views, 00:18:08.560 --> 00:18:10.020 more religious views, 00:18:10.020 --> 00:18:12.560 as well as al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb 00:18:12.560 --> 00:18:15.530 and some other actors. 00:18:15.530 --> 00:18:18.150 And, you know, together, 00:18:18.150 --> 00:18:22.720 sort of in an alliance not of the willing, 00:18:22.720 --> 00:18:24.540 they took over the area. 00:18:24.540 --> 00:18:26.770 And then, from that point on, 00:18:26.770 --> 00:18:28.740 the al-Qaeda in the Islamic 00:18:28.740 --> 00:18:30.250 Maghreb and the mujahideen, 00:18:30.250 --> 00:18:32.490 the local mujahideen who are allied with them, 00:18:32.490 --> 00:18:35.440 sort of took over the cities 00:18:35.440 --> 00:18:38.000 of northern Mali from the Tuareg separatists. 00:18:38.000 --> 00:18:39.590 So, I think, you know, 00:18:39.590 --> 00:18:41.840 the genesis of this whole conflict 00:18:41.840 --> 00:18:43.730 is the Tuareg people 00:18:43.730 --> 00:18:47.770 of northern Mali demanding a state, 00:18:47.770 --> 00:18:50.050 which is a very old demand, 00:18:50.050 --> 00:18:52.390 which goes back to 1963, 00:18:52.390 --> 00:18:54.970 of the first Tuareg rebellion. 00:18:54.970 --> 00:18:58.790 And I think it also needs to be mentioned that France 00:18:58.790 --> 00:19:02.600 has very important economic interests, 00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:04.290 not necessarily in Mali, 00:19:04.290 --> 00:19:07.160 but in neighboring northern Niger, 00:19:07.160 --> 00:19:08.670 which is also a Tuareg area. 00:19:08.670 --> 00:19:11.270 And this whole area of northern Mali 00:19:11.270 --> 00:19:14.720 and northern Niger is a uranium-rich area, 00:19:14.720 --> 00:19:16.950 which is a Tuareg area, 00:19:16.950 --> 00:19:19.460 and which shares the same tribes going back and forth 00:19:19.460 --> 00:19:22.060 between the two, some of the same tribes, 00:19:22.060 --> 00:19:23.730 some of the same families even. 00:19:23.730 --> 00:19:26.220 And usually when you have a Tuareg rebellion 00:19:26.220 --> 00:19:29.670 or uprising in Mali, it spreads to Niger, 00:19:29.670 --> 00:19:31.840 and when you have one in Niger, it spreads to Mali, 00:19:31.840 --> 00:19:33.860 because they’re really all one people. 00:19:33.860 --> 00:19:37.560 And the Tuaregs, in general, have a kind of a national sense. 00:19:38.440 --> 00:19:41.100 I would compare them with the Kurds. 00:19:41.100 --> 00:19:43.400 They’re—they consider themselves one people, 00:19:43.400 --> 00:19:45.780 whether they’re in the Sahara of Algeria 00:19:45.780 --> 00:19:47.190 or the Sahara of Libya 00:19:47.190 --> 00:19:50.190 or the Sahara of Mali or the Sahara of Niger. 00:19:50.190 --> 00:19:52.580 For them, it’s just their homeland. 00:19:52.580 --> 00:19:57.730 And so, you know, France has a huge economic interest 00:19:57.730 --> 00:19:59.570 in northern Niger. 00:19:59.570 --> 00:20:02.840 That is—northern Niger, Niger, 00:20:02.840 --> 00:20:05.990 is one of the world’s biggest reserves of uranium. 00:20:05.990 --> 00:20:09.700 France is—gets 75 percent 00:20:09.700 --> 00:20:12.250 of its electricity from nuclear power. 00:20:12.250 --> 00:20:13.930 And as we know, 00:20:13.930 --> 00:20:17.290 France is a major exporter of nuclear power, 00:20:17.290 --> 00:20:19.700 and it’s a major component 00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:24.590 of French’s—the France’s military-industrial entity. 00:20:24.590 --> 00:20:29.090 I mean, uranium, you know, the uranium from Niger, 00:20:29.090 --> 00:20:30.730 which is France’s former colony, 00:20:31.840 --> 00:20:36.110 really was a key for France in its own development. 00:20:36.110 --> 00:20:38.530 I mean, they developed their nuclear industry 00:20:38.530 --> 00:20:41.740 on the back of that very cheap uranium 00:20:41.740 --> 00:20:43.330 coming from northern Niger, 00:20:43.330 --> 00:20:46.910 which, by the way, Niger is one of the bottom 00:20:46.910 --> 00:20:48.610 three poorest countries in the world, 00:20:48.610 --> 00:20:51.190 according to the U.N. Human Rights—U.N. 00:20:51.190 --> 00:20:53.440 Human Development Index. 00:20:54.090 --> 00:20:56.730 I mean, it has one of the world’s 00:20:56.730 --> 00:20:58.260 most important resources, 00:20:58.260 --> 00:21:00.460 and yet it’s one of the poorest. 00:21:00.460 --> 00:21:03.210 Northern Mali also has a large amount of uranium, 00:21:03.210 --> 00:21:05.560 and the whole area has been divided up 00:21:05.560 --> 00:21:08.570 into exploration concessions, 00:21:08.570 --> 00:21:10.420 and there are a number of companies 00:21:10.420 --> 00:21:13.240 that are just waiting for the chance to get in there. 00:21:13.240 --> 00:21:15.430 And also gold and oil. 00:21:17.180 --> 00:21:19.010 AARON MATÉ: As we understand this background, 00:21:19.010 --> 00:21:21.100 I want to turn to a report that Al Jazeera’s 00:21:21.100 --> 00:21:23.970 May Ying Welsh filed in December from northern Mali. 00:21:23.970 --> 00:21:25.840 She explains how al-Qaeda-linked 00:21:25.840 --> 00:21:28.200 groups managed to expel Tuareg rebels 00:21:28.200 --> 00:21:30.030 from their self-declared rule, 00:21:30.030 --> 00:21:31.820 suspending their plans for statehood. 00:21:34.620 --> 00:21:37.210 MAY YING WELSH: Tuareg rebels train in Gao 00:21:37.210 --> 00:21:40.100 to defend their new self-declared state. 00:21:40.100 --> 00:21:43.750 Who could know, in a few short days, 00:21:43.750 --> 00:21:46.150 they’d be violently expelled from this base, 00:21:46.150 --> 00:21:49.020 or that their new president, 00:21:49.020 --> 00:21:51.110 only just appointed head of state, 00:21:51.110 --> 00:21:53.470 would be shot and evacuated from the country? 00:21:55.360 --> 00:21:57.000 Al-Qaeda-backed rebels 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.070 expelled separatist Tuaregs 00:21:59.070 --> 00:22:01.540 from their main bases in northern Mali, 00:22:01.540 --> 00:22:05.270 hoping to terminate their plans for an Azawad state. 00:22:05.270 --> 00:22:09.320 Now al-Qaeda and its allies are running the region’s cities. 00:22:10.730 --> 00:22:13.500 As Al Jazeera left the city of Gao, 00:22:13.500 --> 00:22:15.160 fighters from the Movement for Unity 00:22:15.160 --> 00:22:18.130 and Jihad in West Africa were closing in, 00:22:18.130 --> 00:22:19.770 taking over the city gates 00:22:19.770 --> 00:22:21.800 and all traffic going out and coming in. 00:22:23.590 --> 00:22:27.040 In Timbuktu, al-Qaeda offshoot Ansar Dine 00:22:27.040 --> 00:22:28.990 fully control the town, 00:22:28.990 --> 00:22:32.780 patrolling this city of Islamic learning for alcohol, 00:22:32.780 --> 00:22:36.040 adultery and other violations of sharia law. 00:22:36.040 --> 00:22:40.850 Here the fighters from Algeria and Mauritania 00:22:40.850 --> 00:22:43.520 mingle with mujahideen from across the Sahel. 00:22:44.300 --> 00:22:46.970 And from their perch high above Timbuktu, 00:22:46.970 --> 00:22:48.820 Ansar Dine told Al Jazeera 00:22:48.820 --> 00:22:50.900 they’ll never ask them to leave. 00:22:50.900 --> 00:22:55.160 ANSAR DINE MEMBER: [translated] Their brothers in al-Qaeda 00:22:55.160 --> 00:22:57.350 are our brothers in religion. 00:22:57.350 --> 00:22:59.290 And they’re here with us, overseeing things 00:22:59.290 --> 00:23:01.230 in the same area that we are working. 00:23:01.820 --> 00:23:04.990 And our relationship with them is one of Muslim to Muslim. 00:23:04.990 --> 00:23:07.600 By what right could we expel them, 00:23:07.600 --> 00:23:08.890 and to serve who? 00:23:08.890 --> 00:23:10.900 As a service to France? Or America? 00:23:14.560 --> 00:23:17.030 MAY YING WELSH: At this hideout in another northern town, 00:23:17.030 --> 00:23:20.710 Tuareg rebels say al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb 00:23:20.710 --> 00:23:22.940 are proxies of Mali and Algeria, 00:23:23.600 --> 00:23:26.730 utilized for years to isolate Tuareg communities 00:23:26.730 --> 00:23:29.780 and prevent the appearance of a Tuareg state. 00:23:29.780 --> 00:23:30.980 TUAREG REBEL: [translated] The main enemy 00:23:30.980 --> 00:23:33.020 of the Malian government is the northern rebellion, 00:23:33.020 --> 00:23:34.560 the Tuareg. 00:23:34.560 --> 00:23:37.820 This is the belief system upon which the Malian state is based, 00:23:37.820 --> 00:23:40.750 that the primary enemy is the Tuareg, 00:23:40.750 --> 00:23:42.360 because since the birth of Mali, 00:23:42.360 --> 00:23:44.270 Tuaregs said the Malian state 00:23:44.270 --> 00:23:45.690 had taken their land, 00:23:45.690 --> 00:23:47.360 just like the French colonialists, 00:23:48.140 --> 00:23:50.050 and that Tuareg land, Azawad, 00:23:50.050 --> 00:23:52.070 has never in fact been part of Mali. 00:23:52.070 --> 00:23:57.130 MAY YING WELSH: Tuareg rebels are now scattered, 00:23:57.130 --> 00:23:58.940 trying to regroup. 00:23:58.940 --> 00:24:00.340 They don’t have the logistics 00:24:00.340 --> 00:24:02.420 and high-tech gear of their rivals 00:24:02.420 --> 00:24:04.530 or the hundreds of millions in cash 00:24:04.530 --> 00:24:07.000 that al-Qaeda has from hostage ransoms. 00:24:07.500 --> 00:24:11.120 What they have is a seemingly endless supply 00:24:11.120 --> 00:24:14.330 of young men ready to die for the cause, 00:24:14.840 --> 00:24:17.590 a 50-year-old self-determination 00:24:17.590 --> 00:24:20.640 struggle of the Sahara’s indigenous people. 00:24:21.240 --> 00:24:24.910 AMY GOODMAN: That’s May Ying Welsh’s report from Mali. 00:24:24.910 --> 00:24:26.850 She is a reporter for Al Jazeera English. 00:24:26.850 --> 00:24:28.370 We’re going to go to a break, 00:24:28.370 --> 00:24:31.220 and when we come back, the second part of that report, 00:24:31.220 --> 00:24:33.010 as we go back to her in Doha, Qatar. 00:24:33.010 --> 00:24:34.070 This is Democracy Now!, 00:24:34.070 --> 00:24:36.290 democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. 00:24:44.550 --> 00:24:46.800 Back in 00:24:46.800 --> 00:25:53.600 a minute. 00:25:53.600 --> 00:26:01.580 [break] 00:26:01.580 --> 00:26:03.360 AARON MATÉ: Let’s turn now to another report filed 00:26:03.360 --> 00:26:05.250 by our guest, Al Jazeera’s May Ying Welsh, 00:26:05.250 --> 00:26:07.180 over the summer from northern Mali. 00:26:07.180 --> 00:26:10.400 In this piece, she explains how the turmoil in Timbuktu 00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:11.700 made it difficult to manage 00:26:11.700 --> 00:26:13.020 a severe food shortage. 00:26:15.250 --> 00:26:17.870 MAY YING WELSH: Abu Bakr [phon.] walked two days from the village 00:26:17.870 --> 00:26:19.670 to sell his sheep in Timbuktu. 00:26:20.950 --> 00:26:23.310 He is exhausted and hungry, 00:26:23.310 --> 00:26:24.710 and his animal is, too, 00:26:25.450 --> 00:26:27.760 no longer able to stand or walk, 00:26:27.760 --> 00:26:29.590 but it represents his only hope 00:26:29.590 --> 00:26:34.560 of earning money to buy food. 00:26:34.560 --> 00:26:36.140 At Timbuktu’s main market, 00:26:36.140 --> 00:26:39.340 villagers hope to sell their animals before they die. 00:26:40.640 --> 00:26:43.480 Here, drought is wiping out animal herds, 00:26:43.480 --> 00:26:45.580 and thousands of people who depend on them 00:26:45.580 --> 00:26:47.580 are going hungry. 00:26:47.580 --> 00:26:50.660 ABU BAKR: [translated] This is the worst year 00:26:50.660 --> 00:26:52.540 of drought I have ever seen. 00:26:52.540 --> 00:26:54.290 There’s no pasture for the animals, 00:26:54.290 --> 00:26:55.180 and they are starving. 00:26:55.180 --> 00:26:57.660 There is nothing for them to eat. 00:26:57.660 --> 00:26:58.900 There is nothing at all. 00:26:59.540 --> 00:27:03.220 MAY YING WELSH: Abu Bakr is barely awake. 00:27:03.220 --> 00:27:05.340 He wonders how he can survive. 00:27:05.340 --> 00:27:08.750 No one wants to buy an animal that’s dying. 00:27:11.470 --> 00:27:14.040 In Timbuktu town, only those too poor 00:27:14.040 --> 00:27:15.740 or too weak to leave remain. 00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:21.090 Staples like rice and millet have doubled in price. 00:27:21.090 --> 00:27:24.140 Freshly slaughtered meat festers in the sun. 00:27:24.140 --> 00:27:26.640 Most people who had money to buy it have gone. 00:27:26.640 --> 00:27:29.030 MEAT VENDOR: [translated] Who would pay for this? 00:27:29.030 --> 00:27:31.290 We can’t even find someone who has $2. 00:27:31.990 --> 00:27:34.310 Many people here have become thieves. 00:27:34.310 --> 00:27:36.400 They’ve become criminals in the place they were born. 00:27:36.400 --> 00:27:39.180 The people of this city are afraid. 00:27:39.180 --> 00:27:41.130 We can’t sleep. There is no medicine. 00:27:41.130 --> 00:27:42.390 There is no water. 00:27:42.390 --> 00:27:44.390 There is nothing. 00:27:46.190 --> 00:27:47.620 MAY YING WELSH: At Timbuktu hospital, 00:27:47.620 --> 00:27:48.870 the impact of the Sahel 00:27:48.870 --> 00:27:51.540 drought and security crisis on families is clear. 00:27:52.550 --> 00:27:55.410 Bags of Plumpy’nut and a small team of medics from Doctors 00:27:55.410 --> 00:27:58.310 Without Borders wait for those who make it here. 00:27:58.310 --> 00:28:02.000 For the man in charge, Timbuktu native 00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:05.520 Saidou Bah, it’s painful to see his city this way. 00:28:05.520 --> 00:28:14.940 SAIDOU BAH: [translated] Malnutrition is worsened 00:28:14.940 --> 00:28:16.730 because of many factors this year. 00:28:16.730 --> 00:28:20.190 There is insecurity. State services no longer exist. 00:28:20.190 --> 00:28:22.420 There is the drought, not enough rain. 00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:24.180 I hope the world will look at Timbuktu, 00:28:24.180 --> 00:28:27.220 because Timbuktu is living a truly difficult moment today. 00:28:30.350 --> 00:28:33.300 MAY YING WELSH: It takes days to reach the city by car, 00:28:33.300 --> 00:28:35.710 and most aid agencies can’t take the risk. 00:28:36.290 --> 00:28:40.300 For now, Timbuktu and its people face this crisis alone, 00:28:40.300 --> 00:28:41.710 isolated from the world. 00:28:43.140 --> 00:28:45.080 AARON MATÉ: And that report by May Ying Welsh, 00:28:45.080 --> 00:28:46.390 our guest in Doha, 00:28:46.390 --> 00:28:48.820 speaking to us from the headquarters of Al Jazeera, 00:28:48.820 --> 00:28:51.810 reporting in that piece from Mali. 00:28:51.810 --> 00:28:54.780 May Ying Welsh, I wanted to ask you about the U.S. role here. 00:28:56.020 --> 00:28:57.780 Few people understand that there’s actually a heavy 00:28:57.780 --> 00:29:01.240 connection with Libya in the current conflict in Mali. 00:29:01.240 --> 00:29:03.240 Can you talk about that? 00:29:05.550 --> 00:29:08.410 MAY YING WELSH: Well, it is true that a lot of the fighters 00:29:08.410 --> 00:29:10.900 that started this whole conflict 00:29:11.490 --> 00:29:14.200 had recently come back from Libya. 00:29:15.160 --> 00:29:17.240 Tuaregs have been rising up 00:29:17.240 --> 00:29:19.440 against their governments in Mali and Niger 00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:21.100 for decades now. 00:29:21.100 --> 00:29:24.280 And a long time ago, back in the 1980s, 00:29:24.280 --> 00:29:27.960 Muammar Gaddafi offered them a place in his army 00:29:27.960 --> 00:29:29.730 and military training camps. 00:29:29.730 --> 00:29:31.430 So a lot of them went there hoping 00:29:31.430 --> 00:29:33.710 that they would be able to further their own cause, 00:29:34.700 --> 00:29:37.140 and they ended up becoming part of his military. 00:29:37.140 --> 00:29:41.490 When he fell, they came back to Mali and Niger, 00:29:41.490 --> 00:29:45.050 some of them heavily armed and, you know, 00:29:45.050 --> 00:29:48.040 in a very desperate position. 00:29:48.040 --> 00:29:49.910 And they resumed their struggle, 00:29:49.910 --> 00:29:51.980 their struggle which has been going on for decades. 00:29:51.980 --> 00:29:54.560 So, I think the fall of Gaddafi 00:29:54.560 --> 00:29:56.770 in Libya did act as a catalyst 00:29:56.770 --> 00:29:59.210 for the conflict that we’re seeing in Mali. 00:29:59.210 --> 00:30:01.740 Another—if you want to look at another aspect 00:30:01.740 --> 00:30:04.940 of U.S. involvement in Mali, the United States government 00:30:04.940 --> 00:30:08.630 has been supplying Mali and also Niger 00:30:08.630 --> 00:30:10.320 and other countries of the Sahel 00:30:10.320 --> 00:30:13.970 with counterterrorism assistance. 00:30:13.970 --> 00:30:15.700 It’s millions and millions of dollars 00:30:15.700 --> 00:30:18.420 every year in equipment and training 00:30:18.420 --> 00:30:21.110 and other ways in order 00:30:21.110 --> 00:30:23.040 to fight al-Qaeda in the Islamic Maghreb, 00:30:23.040 --> 00:30:24.500 which is in the area. 00:30:24.500 --> 00:30:27.380 And, you know, I’ve talked to a lot of people 00:30:27.380 --> 00:30:29.130 who used to work in the Mali government, 00:30:29.130 --> 00:30:32.720 who have told me that that aid that the United States sent 00:30:32.720 --> 00:30:34.770 supposedly to fight al-Qaeda 00:30:34.770 --> 00:30:36.210 was actually diverted 00:30:36.210 --> 00:30:38.100 to fight the Tuareg rebellion in the north, 00:30:38.100 --> 00:30:40.330 which is kind of continuously simmering 00:30:40.330 --> 00:30:41.830 and has never fully gone away. 00:30:42.920 --> 00:30:46.050 You know, and that’s—you know, I hope that when 00:30:46.050 --> 00:30:48.260 this whole conflict calms down a little bit, 00:30:48.260 --> 00:30:51.220 there will be a chance for people to really take a look 00:30:51.220 --> 00:30:52.570 at the mistakes 00:30:52.570 --> 00:30:55.280 that were made by the previous Malian government 00:30:55.280 --> 00:30:58.440 and by its supporters in the United States 00:30:58.440 --> 00:30:59.960 and in the European Union, 00:30:59.960 --> 00:31:01.540 who really looked the other way 00:31:01.540 --> 00:31:04.490 on an unbelievable amount of corruption 00:31:05.430 --> 00:31:09.310 and misuse of the materials that they were giving them. 00:31:09.310 --> 00:31:13.120 As well as, you know—you know, 00:31:13.120 --> 00:31:15.360 there are very serious allegations 00:31:15.360 --> 00:31:18.140 that—coming even from neighboring Niger, 00:31:18.140 --> 00:31:20.230 that the former president himself 00:31:21.200 --> 00:31:22.660 was involved 00:31:22.660 --> 00:31:24.500 in some kind of a deal with al-Qaeda 00:31:24.500 --> 00:31:26.430 in the Islamic Maghreb, 00:31:26.430 --> 00:31:28.920 in which the massive hostage ransoms, 00:31:28.920 --> 00:31:30.560 which were going to—you know, 00:31:30.560 --> 00:31:33.630 coming from European governments to ransom off 00:31:33.630 --> 00:31:35.020 the Western hostages 00:31:35.020 --> 00:31:36.820 and get them free from al-Qaeda in the Islamic 00:31:36.820 --> 00:31:38.070 Maghreb—the hostage 00:31:38.070 --> 00:31:39.480 ransom negotiations were done 00:31:39.480 --> 00:31:41.910 under the auspices of the Malian presidency. 00:31:41.910 --> 00:31:43.650 And one of the main negotiators 00:31:43.650 --> 00:31:45.010 was Iyad Ag Ghaly, 00:31:45.010 --> 00:31:47.170 who is currently the head of Ansar Dine, 00:31:47.170 --> 00:31:48.930 and he was a close political associate 00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:50.050 of the former president. 00:31:50.050 --> 00:31:53.310 This man is currently the head of the mujahideen 00:31:53.310 --> 00:31:55.120 who are now attacking Konna 00:31:56.590 --> 00:31:58.700 and have precipitated the crisis 00:31:58.700 --> 00:32:00.500 we see now with France intervening. 00:32:00.500 --> 00:32:03.970 So I think those are some questions we really need to ask. 00:32:03.970 --> 00:32:06.800 What was—you know, what was the role 00:32:06.800 --> 00:32:08.870 of the Malian government in creating this crisis, 00:32:08.870 --> 00:32:10.190 and how did the European Union 00:32:10.190 --> 00:32:11.520 and the United States enable it? 00:32:12.920 --> 00:32:15.300 AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to bring in Hannah Armstrong, 00:32:15.300 --> 00:32:17.740 who is a Bamako-based research fellow 00:32:17.740 --> 00:32:19.720 with the Institute of Current World Affairs, 00:32:19.720 --> 00:32:22.090 been analyzing the Sahel region of Africa 00:32:22.090 --> 00:32:23.690 for the past five years 00:32:23.690 --> 00:32:25.030 and has spent the past year 00:32:25.030 --> 00:32:27.600 in Mali and Mauritania and Tunisia. 00:32:27.600 --> 00:32:29.750 Hannah, you’re on the ground in the capital 00:32:29.750 --> 00:32:31.750 of Mali right now, in Bamako. 00:32:31.750 --> 00:32:34.190 What is happening there? 00:32:34.190 --> 00:32:35.400 HANNAH ARMSTRONG: Hi, Amy. 00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:37.260 All I can say, there is a tremendous 00:32:37.260 --> 00:32:40.490 outcry of support for France and euphoria 00:32:40.490 --> 00:32:42.580 that the intervention has finally been kicked off. 00:32:43.260 --> 00:32:45.460 It’s very counterintuitive that the Malians 00:32:45.460 --> 00:32:46.890 would be thrilled to see, 00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:50.320 you know, 2,500 French troops arriving on their soil, 00:32:50.320 --> 00:32:52.620 but, you know, I can attest 00:32:52.620 --> 00:32:54.580 that’s very much the case right now. 00:32:55.240 --> 00:32:57.170 When the French talked about, you know, this sense 00:32:57.170 --> 00:32:58.440 that there was an existential threat 00:32:59.260 --> 00:33:01.100 and that—and the Islamists [inaudible] 00:33:01.100 --> 00:33:05.050 last week could have easily wound up in taking Bamako, 00:33:05.860 --> 00:33:08.110 there’s really a strong belief here that that was the case. 00:33:08.110 --> 00:33:09.270 First of all, it’s kind of happening 00:33:09.270 --> 00:33:11.830 when the Islamists started to sort of mass 00:33:11.830 --> 00:33:13.990 toward the border of the territory 00:33:13.990 --> 00:33:15.790 that’s controlled by the military. 00:33:15.790 --> 00:33:17.610 AMY GOODMAN: Hannah, if you could come closer 00:33:17.610 --> 00:33:18.900 to your computer; 00:33:18.900 --> 00:33:20.990 we’re having a lot of trouble understanding you. 00:33:22.300 --> 00:33:23.480 HANNAH ARMSTRONG: Sure. Is that better? 00:33:23.480 --> 00:33:24.810 AMY GOODMAN: Just keep talking. 00:33:26.320 --> 00:33:27.730 HANNAH ARMSTRONG: OK, well, I was saying that 00:33:27.730 --> 00:33:29.250 there’s really a lot of euphoria. 00:33:29.250 --> 00:33:33.010 The Malians were quite panicked about the situation 00:33:33.010 --> 00:33:35.520 with the mujahideen massing toward 00:33:35.520 --> 00:33:37.920 the southern garrison this very last week. 00:33:38.530 --> 00:33:40.620 So, they didn’t have a lot of confidence 00:33:40.620 --> 00:33:43.830 in their own army to be able to stand their ground. 00:33:43.830 --> 00:33:46.140 There were already reports of Malian soldiers 00:33:46.140 --> 00:33:47.660 fleeing this new offensive. 00:33:48.770 --> 00:33:51.220 So, as counterintuitive as it is 00:33:51.220 --> 00:33:54.450 for an ex-Africa colony—an ex-France colony 00:33:54.450 --> 00:33:55.840 to be thrilled 00:33:55.840 --> 00:33:57.330 about the arrival of French troops 00:33:57.330 --> 00:33:58.910 and tanks on the ground, 00:33:58.910 --> 00:34:01.200 I can tell you that it’s very much the case. 00:34:01.900 --> 00:34:04.240 In Bamako, the Malians 00:34:04.240 --> 00:34:06.500 are actually calling François Hollande 00:34:06.500 --> 00:34:08.500 "Papa Hollande." 00:34:08.500 --> 00:34:10.780 And there’s a huge sense of relief here. 00:34:10.780 --> 00:34:13.340 AMY GOODMAN: May Ying Welsh in Doha, your response 00:34:13.340 --> 00:34:15.650 to what Hannah is describing on the ground, 00:34:15.650 --> 00:34:18.870 euphoria in Bamako with the French—with 00:34:18.870 --> 00:34:20.910 the French bombing of Mali? 00:34:24.520 --> 00:34:26.350 MAY YING WELSH: Yeah, I think—I think that, 00:34:26.350 --> 00:34:28.750 you know, France, to some extent, 00:34:28.750 --> 00:34:30.190 created Mali by putting 00:34:30.190 --> 00:34:31.990 northern Mali and southern Mali together, 00:34:31.990 --> 00:34:33.690 and it takes France to keep it together. 00:34:34.250 --> 00:34:36.620 You know, why is the Malian army 00:34:36.620 --> 00:34:38.810 unable to control the north? 00:34:38.810 --> 00:34:41.650 Why did so many of the Tuareg 00:34:41.650 --> 00:34:44.280 and Arab officers and soldiers 00:34:44.280 --> 00:34:46.380 who were leading, 00:34:46.380 --> 00:34:48.570 you know, the Malian army in the north, 00:34:49.310 --> 00:34:51.830 why did so many of them defect or disappear? 00:34:52.330 --> 00:34:55.090 You know, I think that, you know, 00:34:55.090 --> 00:34:58.810 there is a real issue here 00:34:58.810 --> 00:35:02.250 with the Malian army having a difficult time. 00:35:02.250 --> 00:35:05.410 Until—unless and until the people of the north feel 00:35:05.410 --> 00:35:08.540 a little bit more really invested 00:35:08.540 --> 00:35:11.310 and, you know, 00:35:11.310 --> 00:35:13.160 feel more like citizens in Mali, 00:35:13.160 --> 00:35:14.390 until that happens, 00:35:14.390 --> 00:35:15.780 until there’s massive development 00:35:15.780 --> 00:35:18.150 in the north and real democracy, 00:35:18.150 --> 00:35:20.150 as opposed to tokenism 00:35:20.150 --> 00:35:23.420 and sort of empowering certain individuals and cronyism 00:35:23.420 --> 00:35:24.830 and corruption, 00:35:24.830 --> 00:35:27.310 instead of—instead of enabling drug smuggling 00:35:27.310 --> 00:35:30.940 and these kinds of forms of controlling the populace 00:35:30.940 --> 00:35:33.550 and having a few beneficiaries, 00:35:33.550 --> 00:35:35.380 if they could have a real democracy 00:35:35.380 --> 00:35:37.230 and include the people in the north, you know, 00:35:37.230 --> 00:35:40.190 maybe they wouldn’t have their Arab 00:35:40.190 --> 00:35:42.480 and Tuareg officers defecting on them 00:35:42.480 --> 00:35:45.160 and be unable to militarily control the north. 00:35:45.160 --> 00:35:46.690 You know what I mean? I mean, the people of the north, 00:35:46.690 --> 00:35:49.490 clearly, don’t feel all that invested in Mali, 00:35:49.490 --> 00:35:52.900 not as invested as the Bambara people of the south clearly do. 00:35:52.900 --> 00:35:55.240 You know, I mean, either that or the country 00:35:55.240 --> 00:35:59.000 has to consider other forms of existence, 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:01.080 like autonomy or breakup or something else. 00:36:01.080 --> 00:36:03.040 It’s either democracy and real inclusion, 00:36:03.040 --> 00:36:04.430 like real democracy, 00:36:04.430 --> 00:36:07.590 or Mali is not headed in a good direction 00:36:07.590 --> 00:36:09.410 as a unitary state. 00:36:09.410 --> 00:36:11.080 AARON MATÉ: May Ying Welsh, you mentioned the defection 00:36:11.080 --> 00:36:12.800 of Malian forces to the rebels, 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.800 and in fact there was a very fascinating New York 00:36:14.800 --> 00:36:16.360 Times piece yesterday 00:36:16.360 --> 00:36:18.950 reporting that these forces were in fact trained 00:36:18.950 --> 00:36:20.650 by the U.S., saying, quote, 00:36:20.650 --> 00:36:23.360 "Commanders of this nation’s elite army units, 00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:25.920 the fruit of years of careful American training, 00:36:25.920 --> 00:36:28.150 defected when they were needed most—taking troops, 00:36:28.150 --> 00:36:30.490 guns, trucks and their newfound skills 00:36:30.490 --> 00:36:32.360 to the enemy in the heat of battle," 00:36:33.160 --> 00:36:34.440 going on to say that, in fact, 00:36:34.440 --> 00:36:35.680 "an American-trained officer 00:36:35.680 --> 00:36:37.560 overthrew Mali’s elected government, 00:36:37.560 --> 00:36:39.810 setting the stage for more than half of the country 00:36:39.810 --> 00:36:42.690 to fall into the hands of Islamic extremists." 00:36:42.690 --> 00:36:44.690 Your response? 00:36:48.060 --> 00:36:50.340 MAY YING WELSH: Yeah, I mean, I agree that—I agree 00:36:50.340 --> 00:36:52.380 that—you know, 00:36:53.050 --> 00:36:55.370 I think that’s very similar to what I just said, 00:36:55.370 --> 00:36:57.640 you know, that the Malian government, 00:36:57.640 --> 00:36:59.150 because the people of the south 00:36:59.150 --> 00:37:02.400 are not—you know, it’s the Sahara. 00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:03.680 It’s really different 00:37:03.680 --> 00:37:05.820 than the southern half of the country. 00:37:05.820 --> 00:37:08.490 It’s—the Saharan area requires, 00:37:08.490 --> 00:37:10.930 you know, certain kinds of soldiers 00:37:10.930 --> 00:37:13.210 and abilities and certain kind of equipment. 00:37:13.210 --> 00:37:16.300 And, you know, it was natural for them to, of course, 00:37:16.300 --> 00:37:18.320 try to use the local people of the area 00:37:19.040 --> 00:37:20.590 to lead the army up there. 00:37:20.590 --> 00:37:22.370 That is the natural thing to do. 00:37:23.390 --> 00:37:25.260 But, you know, like I said before, 00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:27.390 if you don’t have a real democracy underpinning that, 00:37:27.390 --> 00:37:29.260 where there’s real investment on the part of those people, 00:37:29.260 --> 00:37:32.240 not just in the military and not just in, you know, 00:37:32.240 --> 00:37:33.920 controlling some drug-smuggling routes 00:37:35.120 --> 00:37:36.690 and giving kickbacks to the president 00:37:36.690 --> 00:37:38.170 and his wife, you know, I mean, 00:37:38.170 --> 00:37:39.960 if you’re not going to—if 00:37:39.960 --> 00:37:42.520 you’re not going to give the people some real investment 00:37:42.520 --> 00:37:43.720 in the country, 00:37:43.720 --> 00:37:45.860 you can expect these kind of defections, 00:37:45.860 --> 00:37:49.140 and you can expect every single Tuareg, 00:37:49.140 --> 00:37:52.610 you know, to turn rebel tomorrow, 00:37:52.610 --> 00:37:54.860 which is what always happens. 00:37:55.750 --> 00:37:57.500 AMY GOODMAN: May Ying, we want to thank you very much 00:37:57.500 --> 00:37:58.580 for being with us. 00:37:58.580 --> 00:38:01.050 May Ying Welsh, reporter for Al Jazeera English, 00:38:01.050 --> 00:38:02.870 recently filed an exclusive report 00:38:02.870 --> 00:38:05.770 from inside Mali’s restive northern region, 00:38:05.770 --> 00:38:07.420 which we’ll link to online. 00:38:07.420 --> 00:38:08.670 Her most recent piece 00:38:08.670 --> 00:38:10.960 is "Making Sense of Mali’s Armed Groups," 00:38:10.960 --> 00:38:13.450 working on a documentary about Mali, 00:38:13.450 --> 00:38:14.930 speaking to us from Doha, Qatar, 00:38:14.930 --> 00:38:17.900 from the headquarters of Al Jazeera 00:38:17.900 --> 00:38:19.360 and Al Jazeera English. 00:38:19.360 --> 00:38:20.230 And I want to thank Hannah, 00:38:20.230 --> 00:38:21.730 though we had trouble understanding her, 00:38:21.730 --> 00:38:23.640 from the capital of Mali, 00:38:23.640 --> 00:38:25.550 in Bamako, Hannah Armstrong, 00:38:25.550 --> 00:38:26.960 a research fellow with the Institute 00:38:26.960 --> 00:38:28.290 of Current World Affairs. 00:38:28.290 --> 00:38:30.110 This is Democracy Now! When we come back, 00:38:30.610 --> 00:38:33.590 we will be talking about Vietnam. 00:38:33.590 --> 00:38:37.920 The heads of the foreign policy establishment 00:38:37.920 --> 00:38:40.970 that have been nominated by President Obama, 00:38:40.970 --> 00:38:42.870 Chuck Hagel to head defense 00:38:42.870 --> 00:38:44.850 and John Kerry 00:38:44.850 --> 00:38:46.790 to become secretary of state, 00:38:46.790 --> 00:38:49.430 both fought in Vietnam. 00:38:49.430 --> 00:38:52.490 We’ll look at Vietnam and talk to the author 00:38:52.490 --> 00:38:54.100 of an explosive new book. 00:38:54.100 --> 00:38:55.760 Stay with us. 00:39:07.440 --> 00:39:11.960 AARON MATÉ: We are less than a week from President 00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:13.530 Obama’s 00:39:13.530 --> 00:40:22.430 second 00:40:22.430 --> 00:40:23.800 -term inauguration. 00:40:23.800 --> 00:40:25.790 Two of the leading figures nominated to head 00:40:25.790 --> 00:40:27.610 the foreign policy establishment 00:40:27.610 --> 00:40:30.220 have their political roots in the Vietnam War. 00:40:30.220 --> 00:40:32.500 Chuck Hagel, tapped by President Obama 00:40:32.500 --> 00:40:34.220 to be secretary of defense, 00:40:34.220 --> 00:40:36.940 is a former Army sergeant and, if confirmed, 00:40:36.940 --> 00:40:38.940 will become the first Vietnam War veteran 00:40:38.940 --> 00:40:40.380 to head the Pentagon. 00:40:40.380 --> 00:40:43.390 Obama’s nominee for secretary of state, John Kerry, 00:40:43.390 --> 00:40:45.340 became one of the most prominent veterans 00:40:45.340 --> 00:40:47.620 to oppose the Vietnam War after his return. 00:40:48.230 --> 00:40:51.140 Testifying before the Senate in 1971. 00:40:51.140 --> 00:40:52.630 Kerry discussed the atrocities 00:40:52.630 --> 00:40:54.970 unearthed in the Winter Soldier investigation, 00:40:54.970 --> 00:40:58.070 where over 150 veterans testified to war crimes 00:40:58.070 --> 00:40:59.800 committed in Southeast Asia. 00:41:00.710 --> 00:41:03.130 JOHN KERRY: They told the stories of times 00:41:03.130 --> 00:41:04.920 that they had personally raped, 00:41:05.530 --> 00:41:08.010 cut off the ears, cut off heads, 00:41:08.690 --> 00:41:11.010 taped wires from portable telephones 00:41:11.010 --> 00:41:13.340 to human genitals and turned up the power, 00:41:14.360 --> 00:41:17.620 cut off limbs, blown up bodies, 00:41:17.620 --> 00:41:20.440 randomly shot at civilians, 00:41:20.440 --> 00:41:24.370 razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, 00:41:25.220 --> 00:41:27.530 shot cattle and dogs for fun, 00:41:28.210 --> 00:41:30.360 poisoned food stocks 00:41:30.360 --> 00:41:35.020 and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam 00:41:35.020 --> 00:41:38.860 in addition to the normal ravage of war and the normal 00:41:39.460 --> 00:41:42.010 and very particular ravaging 00:41:42.010 --> 00:41:45.350 which is done by the applied bombing power of this country. 00:41:46.620 --> 00:41:49.260 AARON MATÉ: That’s John Kerry testifying in 1971 00:41:49.260 --> 00:41:50.830 after he returned from Vietnam. 00:41:51.560 --> 00:41:53.880 Although the Vietnam War is far behind them, 00:41:53.880 --> 00:41:56.090 Kerry and Hagel will now have to contend 00:41:56.090 --> 00:41:59.420 with the longest-running war in U.S. history, Afghanistan. 00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:01.180 President Obama has announced plans 00:42:01.180 --> 00:42:03.990 to speed up the transfer of formal military control 00:42:03.990 --> 00:42:05.270 to Afghan forces, 00:42:05.270 --> 00:42:07.040 but it’s unclear how the new timetable 00:42:07.040 --> 00:42:09.030 will change operations on the ground 00:42:09.030 --> 00:42:11.130 as tens of thousands of U.S. troops remain 00:42:11.130 --> 00:42:12.340 in Afghanistan 00:42:12.340 --> 00:42:15.100 until the withdrawal deadline of late 2014 00:42:15.100 --> 00:42:16.480 and possibly even beyond. 00:42:17.010 --> 00:42:19.760 Speaking on Monday after meetings with President Obama, 00:42:19.760 --> 00:42:21.980 Afghan President Hamid Karzai said 00:42:21.980 --> 00:42:25.030 Afghanistan would be better off without foreign troops. 00:42:25.030 --> 00:42:28.290 PRESIDENT HAMID KARZAI: [translated] The main question 00:42:28.290 --> 00:42:30.870 is that whether by the withdrawal of foreign troops 00:42:30.870 --> 00:42:34.030 from Afghanistan will the situation become insecure. 00:42:34.030 --> 00:42:35.860 No, by no means. 00:42:35.860 --> 00:42:37.180 It’s the other way around. 00:42:37.180 --> 00:42:40.370 Afghanistan will be a secure and better place. 00:42:40.370 --> 00:42:42.500 We should remove this idea from our mind 00:42:42.500 --> 00:42:45.360 that if there are no foreign troops in our country, 00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:47.460 we will not be able to protect the country. 00:42:47.460 --> 00:42:48.780 That is wrong. 00:42:48.780 --> 00:42:50.850 AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined right now by author 00:42:50.850 --> 00:42:52.130 and journalist Nick Turse, 00:42:52.130 --> 00:42:54.610 managing editor of TomDispatch.com. 00:42:54.610 --> 00:42:55.960 His most recent book 00:42:55.960 --> 00:42:58.280 is _Kill Anything That Moves: 00:42:58.280 --> 00:43:00.760 The Real American War in Vietnam." 00:43:00.760 --> 00:43:03.550 The title is taken from an order given 00:43:03.550 --> 00:43:05.270 to the U.S. forces who slaughtered 00:43:05.270 --> 00:43:08.590 more than 500 Vietnamese civilians 00:43:08.590 --> 00:43:12.000 in the notorious My Lai massacre of 1968. 00:43:12.000 --> 00:43:14.160 But drawing on interviews in Vietnam 00:43:14.160 --> 00:43:16.670 and a trove of previously unknown 00:43:16.670 --> 00:43:18.010 U.S. government documents, 00:43:18.010 --> 00:43:20.510 including internal military investigations 00:43:20.510 --> 00:43:22.400 of alleged war crimes in Vietnam, 00:43:22.960 --> 00:43:26.400 Turse argues that U.S. atrocities in Vietnam 00:43:26.400 --> 00:43:28.630 were not just isolated incidents 00:43:28.630 --> 00:43:31.350 but "the inevitable outcome of deliberate policies, 00:43:31.350 --> 00:43:34.240 dictated at the highest levels of the military." 00:43:34.240 --> 00:43:36.200 Nick Turse’s other books include 00:43:36.200 --> 00:43:37.710 The Case for Withdrawal 00:43:37.710 --> 00:43:40.140 from Afghanistan and The Complex. 00:43:40.140 --> 00:43:41.370 Welcome to Democracy Now! 00:43:41.370 --> 00:43:42.220 NICK TURSE: Thanks for having me on. 00:43:42.220 --> 00:43:45.050 AMY GOODMAN: So, the foreign policy establishment, 00:43:45.050 --> 00:43:46.690 if confirmed—Chuck Hagel 00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:50.880 and John Kerry—both fought in Vietnam. 00:43:50.880 --> 00:43:52.450 When John Kerry came home, 00:43:52.450 --> 00:43:56.410 he famously talked about the atrocities 00:43:56.410 --> 00:43:57.860 that were going on in Vietnam. 00:43:57.860 --> 00:44:00.550 So, it’s decades later, Nick. 00:44:00.550 --> 00:44:03.870 There have been tens of thousands of books 00:44:03.870 --> 00:44:05.930 written about Vietnam. 00:44:05.930 --> 00:44:09.070 Why did you choose to go there, as well, 00:44:09.070 --> 00:44:11.490 and write Kill Anything That Moves? 00:44:12.060 --> 00:44:13.560 NICK TURSE: Well, you know, as you said, there have been 00:44:13.560 --> 00:44:15.530 30,000 books or so written on the war, 00:44:15.530 --> 00:44:18.580 but none that I found that truly addressed 00:44:18.580 --> 00:44:20.840 what I believe is the signature aspect of the war, 00:44:20.840 --> 00:44:22.590 which was Vietnamese civilian suffering. 00:44:23.580 --> 00:44:25.560 This isn’t just atrocities, 00:44:25.560 --> 00:44:27.310 the types of things that we heard John Kerry 00:44:27.310 --> 00:44:28.530 just talking about, 00:44:28.530 --> 00:44:32.760 but also the systematic use of heavy firepower 00:44:32.760 --> 00:44:35.910 in the countryside, unrestrained bombing, 00:44:35.910 --> 00:44:37.920 the use of helicopter gunships, 00:44:38.750 --> 00:44:40.140 artillery fire—they called it 00:44:40.140 --> 00:44:41.820 "harassment and interdiction fire," 00:44:41.820 --> 00:44:44.270 which was basically just blanketing the countryside 00:44:44.270 --> 00:44:45.740 with heavy artillery. 00:44:45.740 --> 00:44:48.120 This was where people lived and people worked, 00:44:48.120 --> 00:44:50.880 and tremendous numbers of Vietnamese dies as a result. 00:44:50.880 --> 00:44:52.240 AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to My Lai for a minute, 00:44:52.240 --> 00:44:56.060 the My Lai massacre that took place on March 16th, 1968. 00:44:56.060 --> 00:44:59.390 But wasn’t until November 12th, 1969, 00:44:59.390 --> 00:45:00.830 that the world found out about it, 00:45:00.830 --> 00:45:03.550 when investigative journalist Seymour Hersh broke the story 00:45:03.550 --> 00:45:05.110 about the massacre and its cover-up. 00:45:05.110 --> 00:45:07.470 He was awarded the Pulitzer Prize for the exposé. 00:45:08.070 --> 00:45:11.860 Democracy Now! spoke to Sy Hersh on the 40th anniversary 00:45:11.860 --> 00:45:13.140 of the My Lai massacre 00:45:13.140 --> 00:45:15.190 about what happened. 00:45:15.190 --> 00:45:18.240 SEYMOUR HERSH: The analogy with Iraq is pretty acute. 00:45:18.240 --> 00:45:20.510 Basically, it’s a group of soldiers that landed. 00:45:20.510 --> 00:45:24.550 They were mostly uneducated high school graduates 00:45:24.550 --> 00:45:28.350 and dropouts who were told they were fighting communism, 00:45:28.350 --> 00:45:30.510 going to save America. They got to Vietnam. 00:45:30.510 --> 00:45:33.290 They spent 10, 11 weeks in the—you know, 00:45:33.290 --> 00:45:35.470 humping it in the boonies and in the villages 00:45:35.470 --> 00:45:39.810 and paddies of South Vietnam and never saw the enemy. 00:45:39.810 --> 00:45:42.520 Maybe they lost 15 or 20 percent of their company 00:45:42.520 --> 00:45:45.430 through snipers, land mines, etc., 00:45:45.430 --> 00:45:46.640 but they never engaged. 00:45:46.640 --> 00:45:48.920 And over the period of 10, 11, 12 weeks, 00:45:48.920 --> 00:45:51.160 between the period they landed around 00:45:51.160 --> 00:45:54.700 New Year’s Day of '68 until March 16th, 00:45:54.700 --> 00:45:56.540 they became increasingly brutal, 00:45:56.540 --> 00:46:00.070 so randomly going through a village 00:46:00.070 --> 00:46:02.420 and whacking people, sometimes an old man they saw. 00:46:02.420 --> 00:46:04.100 One soldier would just hit him with a rifle butt, 00:46:04.100 --> 00:46:05.640 and nobody said anything, 00:46:05.640 --> 00:46:07.240 because what happens inevitably is 00:46:07.240 --> 00:46:09.480 when you don't see an organized enemy 00:46:09.480 --> 00:46:11.430 and you lose people, you lose your buddies 00:46:11.430 --> 00:46:13.290 and your mates, and you’re angry, 00:46:13.290 --> 00:46:14.740 you take it out on the villagers, 00:46:14.740 --> 00:46:16.540 you take it out on the civilian population. 00:46:17.570 --> 00:46:19.300 AARON MATÉ: That’s Sy Hersh speaking 00:46:19.300 --> 00:46:21.180 about the My Lai massacre. 00:46:21.180 --> 00:46:22.780 And, Nick Turse, in your book, 00:46:22.780 --> 00:46:25.020 you talk about the testimony of soldiers 00:46:25.020 --> 00:46:28.390 who actually spoke of a My Lai each month 00:46:28.390 --> 00:46:29.600 for a year 00:46:29.600 --> 00:46:32.200 and actually saying that these types of atrocities 00:46:32.200 --> 00:46:34.890 were carried out by every single unit 00:46:34.890 --> 00:46:37.720 that was deployed in Vietnam. 00:46:37.720 --> 00:46:40.020 Can you talk about what you found 00:46:40.020 --> 00:46:41.340 in the U.S. government archives 00:46:41.340 --> 00:46:44.350 that speak to this level of killings 00:46:44.350 --> 00:46:46.380 that you discuss in your book? 00:46:46.380 --> 00:46:49.620 NICK TURSE: Sure. This was—when I was a graduate student, 00:46:49.620 --> 00:46:51.140 I found these records. 00:46:51.140 --> 00:46:52.630 They had been sitting on the—in 00:46:52.630 --> 00:46:54.140 the National Archives for years, 00:46:54.140 --> 00:46:55.890 but no one had worked with them. 00:46:55.890 --> 00:46:58.310 And it was a secret Pentagon task force 00:46:58.310 --> 00:47:00.340 called the Vietnam War Crimes Working Group. 00:47:00.340 --> 00:47:02.250 It was set up in the wake of the My Lai massacre 00:47:02.770 --> 00:47:05.450 to make sure that the Army was never caught flatfooted again 00:47:05.450 --> 00:47:07.060 by an atrocity scandal. 00:47:07.060 --> 00:47:08.330 This was run out of the office 00:47:08.330 --> 00:47:10.220 of William Westmoreland in the Pentagon, 00:47:10.220 --> 00:47:11.760 who at the time was the chief of staff. 00:47:11.760 --> 00:47:13.720 He had previously been the supreme 00:47:13.720 --> 00:47:15.440 U.S. commander in Vietnam. 00:47:15.440 --> 00:47:18.380 So he a real stake in finding out 00:47:19.230 --> 00:47:21.440 what atrocity allegations might bubble up 00:47:21.440 --> 00:47:23.980 and then tamping down whenever possible. 00:47:24.610 --> 00:47:28.810 And this working group put together records of hundreds 00:47:28.810 --> 00:47:31.930 and hundreds of horrific atrocities. 00:47:31.930 --> 00:47:33.730 We’re talking about massacres, 00:47:33.730 --> 00:47:36.550 murder, assault, rape, torture. 00:47:36.550 --> 00:47:39.880 It was really just—to 00:47:39.880 --> 00:47:42.700 call it a treasure trove of records is the wrong phrase. 00:47:42.700 --> 00:47:44.180 It was a horror trove. 00:47:44.180 --> 00:47:46.160 And when I looked at this, 00:47:46.160 --> 00:47:47.450 I realized that these records 00:47:47.450 --> 00:47:49.060 weren’t in the literature anywhere, 00:47:49.060 --> 00:47:51.370 and I saw that it showed 00:47:51.370 --> 00:47:53.700 a systematic use of atrocity 00:47:53.700 --> 00:47:55.400 throughout the countryside. 00:47:55.400 --> 00:47:57.450 These were atrocities committed 00:47:57.450 --> 00:48:00.720 by every U.S.—major U.S. Army unit 00:48:00.720 --> 00:48:02.140 that was involved in the conflict. 00:48:02.140 --> 00:48:03.530 AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to Westmoreland now. 00:48:03.530 --> 00:48:06.760 Let’s turn to a 1974 American documentary 00:48:06.760 --> 00:48:10.340 film about the Vietnam War called Hearts and Minds, 00:48:10.340 --> 00:48:11.940 that was directed by Peter Davis, 00:48:11.940 --> 00:48:13.460 very well-known film. 00:48:13.460 --> 00:48:15.790 In this clip, General William Westmoreland, 00:48:15.790 --> 00:48:17.970 the former commander of the American military 00:48:17.970 --> 00:48:19.560 operations in the Vietnam War, 00:48:19.560 --> 00:48:22.350 reveals his views about the Vietnamese people. 00:48:23.050 --> 00:48:24.330 GEN. WILLIAM WESTMORELAND: Well, the Oriental 00:48:25.750 --> 00:48:27.360 doesn’t put the same high price 00:48:27.360 --> 00:48:29.190 on life as does the Westerner. 00:48:30.850 --> 00:48:33.920 Life is plentiful, life is cheap in the Orient. 00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:41.480 And as the philosophy 00:48:41.480 --> 00:48:51.810 of the Orient expresses it, 00:48:51.810 --> 00:48:56.010 life is—is not important. 00:48:56.540 --> 00:48:59.940 AMY GOODMAN: That’s General William Westmoreland. 00:48:59.940 --> 00:49:01.210 Nick Turse? 00:49:01.210 --> 00:49:04.670 NICK TURSE: Yes, you know, and the filmmaker, Peter Davis, 00:49:04.670 --> 00:49:06.700 I actually asked him that question a number of times, 00:49:06.700 --> 00:49:10.240 to make sure that Westmoreland was—was expressing his views. 00:49:10.240 --> 00:49:13.150 And this is exactly what he meant to say. 00:49:13.150 --> 00:49:16.090 And this was—this was the type of mindset 00:49:16.090 --> 00:49:18.000 that suffused the U.S. military at the time. 00:49:19.100 --> 00:49:22.150 There was an acronym used, MGR; 00:49:22.150 --> 00:49:24.680 it was—stood for the "mere gook rule." 00:49:26.290 --> 00:49:28.160 This was what the U.S. military was 00:49:28.160 --> 00:49:29.990 steeped in at the time, a type of racism 00:49:29.990 --> 00:49:31.720 and dehumanization of the Vietnamese, 00:49:31.720 --> 00:49:33.860 that they weren’t real people, 00:49:33.860 --> 00:49:35.230 that they were subhuman, 00:49:35.230 --> 00:49:37.980 mere gooks who could be abused or killed at will. 00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:41.290 AARON MATÉ: Now, meanwhile, Nick Turse, there were soldiers 00:49:41.290 --> 00:49:43.240 at the time, not just John Kerry, 00:49:43.240 --> 00:49:47.550 who were trying to publicly reveal the atrocities 00:49:47.550 --> 00:49:49.180 that were taking place. 00:49:49.180 --> 00:49:52.060 And you mentioned this Vietnam War Crimes 00:49:52.060 --> 00:49:53.360 Working Group, 00:49:53.360 --> 00:49:55.910 and in your book you actually talk about 00:49:55.910 --> 00:49:57.970 taking these secret documents 00:49:57.970 --> 00:49:59.420 that hadn’t been released before, 00:49:59.420 --> 00:50:00.720 taking them to the veterans 00:50:00.720 --> 00:50:03.160 that had tried to speak out way back then. 00:50:03.160 --> 00:50:04.830 And one of them is Jamie Henry. 00:50:04.830 --> 00:50:06.670 I’m wondering if you can talk about him. 00:50:06.670 --> 00:50:08.880 NICK TURSE: Sure. The records that I found 00:50:08.880 --> 00:50:11.890 on Jamie Henry’s case really—they stuck with me, 00:50:11.890 --> 00:50:13.990 and I knew I had to find—find this man. 00:50:13.990 --> 00:50:16.560 They were several phone-book-sized files. 00:50:17.510 --> 00:50:18.960 A major investigation was done. 00:50:19.830 --> 00:50:23.580 And, you know, Jamie was a reluctant draftee, 00:50:23.580 --> 00:50:24.850 but he went to Vietnam. 00:50:24.850 --> 00:50:28.260 He was a medic. He saved a lot of American lives. 00:50:28.260 --> 00:50:30.590 And—but once he got over there, 00:50:30.590 --> 00:50:32.610 he saw things that really disturbed him. 00:50:32.610 --> 00:50:34.170 On his first day in the field, 00:50:34.170 --> 00:50:35.770 he watched as the point man, 00:50:35.770 --> 00:50:37.140 the lead man of his patrol, 00:50:37.140 --> 00:50:40.980 stopped a young girl on a trail and molested her. 00:50:41.760 --> 00:50:45.550 And Jamie said to myself, "My god, what’s going on here?" 00:50:45.550 --> 00:50:49.080 And day after day, he saw things that really disturbed him 00:50:49.080 --> 00:50:52.670 —a young boy who was captured and beaten up and then executed, 00:50:53.230 --> 00:50:55.280 an old woman who was shot down, 00:50:55.280 --> 00:50:57.300 a man who was used for target practice, 00:50:57.300 --> 00:50:59.890 a prisoner who was beaten and thrown off a cliff. 00:51:00.570 --> 00:51:02.920 On and on he saw these things. 00:51:02.920 --> 00:51:06.800 And it culminated one day on February 8th, 1968—that’s 00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:08.570 about a month before the My Lai massacre. 00:51:09.300 --> 00:51:11.580 His officer, while they were in a village, 00:51:11.580 --> 00:51:15.270 gave an order to kill anything that moves. 00:51:15.270 --> 00:51:17.090 And Jamie heard this over the radio, 00:51:17.090 --> 00:51:20.030 and he set out to go to the scene to try and stop it. 00:51:21.200 --> 00:51:23.400 Well, there were 20 women and children who were rounded up, 00:51:23.400 --> 00:51:24.870 and by the time Jamie got there, 00:51:24.870 --> 00:51:27.500 the men opened up on them, on—an automatic, 00:51:27.500 --> 00:51:29.970 with their M-16 automatic rifles, 00:51:29.970 --> 00:51:31.920 and killed them all. 00:51:31.920 --> 00:51:34.120 And Jamie watched this happen, 00:51:34.120 --> 00:51:37.530 and he told me that 30 seconds later he vowed 00:51:37.530 --> 00:51:39.480 that he would make sure that this story got out, 00:51:39.480 --> 00:51:41.110 no matter what it took. 00:51:41.110 --> 00:51:45.500 So, Jamie’s life had been threatened in Vietnam, 00:51:45.500 --> 00:51:48.710 so he kept his mouth shut ’til he got back home, stateside. 00:51:49.250 --> 00:51:50.190 But he immediately went— 00:51:50.190 --> 00:51:52.060 AMY GOODMAN: Told that he would have a bullet in his back, if— 00:51:52.060 --> 00:51:54.800 NICK TURSE: Yes, you know, his—he was warned 00:51:54.800 --> 00:51:57.050 when he—the first time he spoke up about brutality, 00:51:57.050 --> 00:51:59.270 that he’d better watch himself. 00:51:59.270 --> 00:52:01.440 And his friends came up to him after and said, 00:52:01.440 --> 00:52:03.240 "It’s so easy to be killed in a firefight, 00:52:03.240 --> 00:52:04.810 you know, look like you were killed by the enemy. 00:52:04.810 --> 00:52:06.440 You’d better shut up." 00:52:06.440 --> 00:52:09.460 So, you know, Jamie did, 00:52:09.460 --> 00:52:10.800 but once he got back, 00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:12.460 he went and met with a Army lawyer. 00:52:13.130 --> 00:52:15.340 And this guy told him, 00:52:15.340 --> 00:52:16.620 "Look, there’s a million ways 00:52:16.620 --> 00:52:18.220 that the Army can make you disappear. 00:52:18.220 --> 00:52:20.020 So you better keep your mouth shut." 00:52:20.020 --> 00:52:21.880 He went and spoke to an army criminal investigator, 00:52:21.880 --> 00:52:23.580 and this man threatened him. 00:52:23.580 --> 00:52:25.970 He went to a private attorney and asked for advice, 00:52:25.970 --> 00:52:28.050 and this guy said, "You should get some political backing." 00:52:28.630 --> 00:52:31.410 He wrote to some congressmen, but no one wrote him back. 00:52:31.410 --> 00:52:33.890 So, he went public. 00:52:33.890 --> 00:52:36.560 He spoke out at the Winter Soldier investigation, 00:52:37.140 --> 00:52:39.800 among other public forums, on the radio. 00:52:41.600 --> 00:52:44.140 He published an article, had a press conference. 00:52:44.140 --> 00:52:46.100 But he just couldn’t get any traction. 00:52:46.100 --> 00:52:47.900 And eventually, you know, years later, 00:52:47.900 --> 00:52:50.240 he just gave up. 00:52:50.240 --> 00:52:52.400 What Jamie didn’t know was that the Army conducted 00:52:52.400 --> 00:52:53.840 a very thorough investigation, 00:52:54.370 --> 00:52:56.880 interviewed all the other members of his unit. 00:52:56.880 --> 00:52:58.460 They corroborated exactly what he said. 00:52:58.460 --> 00:53:00.680 And they even painted a more chilling picture, 00:53:00.680 --> 00:53:03.770 because some of them saw things that Jamie hadn’t. 00:53:03.770 --> 00:53:05.890 And—but Jamie didn’t know, 00:53:05.890 --> 00:53:08.350 until I called him up and then knocked on his door 00:53:08.350 --> 00:53:10.160 and brought those investigation files. 00:53:10.160 --> 00:53:11.290 AMY GOODMAN: Where did he live? 00:53:11.290 --> 00:53:12.900 NICK TURSE: He was in northern California. 00:53:13.440 --> 00:53:15.090 He was a skyline logger. 00:53:15.090 --> 00:53:17.640 And, you know, he just never knew 00:53:17.640 --> 00:53:19.490 that these records existed, 00:53:19.490 --> 00:53:22.430 that anyone knew that he was actually telling the truth. 00:53:22.430 --> 00:53:26.960 AMY GOODMAN: So when you brought him these phone-book-sized 00:53:26.960 --> 00:53:30.070 investigations into his allegations, 00:53:30.070 --> 00:53:32.100 what did he do? 00:53:32.100 --> 00:53:33.870 NICK TURSE: Well, I mean, he was shocked. 00:53:33.870 --> 00:53:36.580 He did feel vindicated. 00:53:37.520 --> 00:53:38.980 There was a little trepidation there, 00:53:38.980 --> 00:53:43.120 because, you know, it was a lot of years later 00:53:43.120 --> 00:53:44.460 to dredge all this up, 00:53:44.460 --> 00:53:46.110 and he was a little scared. 00:53:46.110 --> 00:53:47.910 But he told me that, you know, 00:53:47.910 --> 00:53:49.410 if it was right back then, 00:53:49.410 --> 00:53:51.480 then it was right to expose now. 00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:55.250 And it wasn’t easy on him. 00:53:55.250 --> 00:53:57.680 After the first day that I spent talking with him 00:53:57.680 --> 00:54:00.770 and going through the records, he told me that that night, 00:54:00.770 --> 00:54:02.080 after I had left, 00:54:02.080 --> 00:54:03.780 he went and sat in his easy chair, 00:54:03.780 --> 00:54:06.340 and he shook uncontrollably for an hour. 00:54:06.340 --> 00:54:09.070 He said, you know, "I had some sort of stress reaction," 00:54:09.070 --> 00:54:11.630 he said. But he thought about it. 00:54:11.630 --> 00:54:13.750 He talked to his wife, and he said that this was 00:54:13.750 --> 00:54:16.520 —it was important to go on the record again 00:54:16.520 --> 00:54:19.270 and make sure that the people knew 00:54:19.270 --> 00:54:21.410 that this is really what happened in Vietnam. 00:54:21.410 --> 00:54:23.930 AMY GOODMAN: And you wonder where so many cases 00:54:23.930 --> 00:54:26.840 of post-traumatic stress disorder come from, 00:54:26.840 --> 00:54:29.770 that everything you learn is wrong in this country 00:54:29.770 --> 00:54:31.880 when you’re growing up, 00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:34.000 you then either commit, 00:54:34.000 --> 00:54:35.450 see others commit, 00:54:35.450 --> 00:54:39.440 are forced to cover up or choose not to cover up. 00:54:39.440 --> 00:54:42.830 Now, today in our headlines, we just read, this year, 00:54:42.830 --> 00:54:46.510 the worst year for suicides, almost one a day, 00:54:46.510 --> 00:54:49.060 and that’s just active-duty soldiers 00:54:49.060 --> 00:54:53.040 right now in the wars now. 00:54:53.040 --> 00:54:56.340 That doesn’t even include the record number of veterans 00:54:56.340 --> 00:54:57.920 who kill themselves. 00:54:57.920 --> 00:55:00.170 NICK TURSE: That’s right. And, you know, one thing also 00:55:00.170 --> 00:55:03.130 to keep in mind about Vietnam-era veterans like Jamie, 00:55:03.630 --> 00:55:08.150 I mean, this was a largely draftee army, 00:55:08.150 --> 00:55:10.530 and these were—I mean, 00:55:10.530 --> 00:55:13.970 these were mostly teenage boys, 18, 19, 20 years old. 00:55:13.970 --> 00:55:17.640 Today, some of the troops are a little older. 00:55:17.640 --> 00:55:20.530 At that time, these men were even less 00:55:20.530 --> 00:55:23.210 psychologically able to deal with the types of things 00:55:23.210 --> 00:55:24.920 that they were seeing and called upon to do. 00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:27.320 AARON MATÉ: Now, Nick Turse, you’ve also written a book 00:55:27.320 --> 00:55:28.730 called The Case for Withdrawal 00:55:28.730 --> 00:55:30.980 from Afghanistan. 00:55:30.980 --> 00:55:32.770 What is that case? 00:55:32.770 --> 00:55:35.550 And can you talk about the significance 00:55:35.550 --> 00:55:37.200 of having now Kerry and Hagel, 00:55:37.800 --> 00:55:40.770 Vietnam veterans, now heading U.S. foreign policy, 00:55:40.770 --> 00:55:43.240 which is of course overseeing the longest war 00:55:43.240 --> 00:55:44.480 in U.S. history, in Afghanistan? 00:55:44.480 --> 00:55:45.490 AMY GOODMAN: If confirmed. 00:55:45.490 --> 00:55:46.920 AARON MATÉ: If confirmed, of course, yeah. 00:55:46.920 --> 00:55:48.560 NICK TURSE: Right. Well, you know, 00:55:48.560 --> 00:55:52.180 I guess there are reasons to be hopeful. 00:55:52.180 --> 00:55:55.540 I mean, these men have actually seen combat. 00:55:56.840 --> 00:55:59.050 You know, John Kerry did speak out at one time. 00:55:59.050 --> 00:56:01.120 It seemed like he began backing away 00:56:01.120 --> 00:56:03.480 from that almost immediately, 00:56:03.480 --> 00:56:05.310 and by the time, you know, 00:56:05.310 --> 00:56:07.590 he made his presidential run in 2004, 00:56:07.590 --> 00:56:09.720 he—you know, 00:56:09.720 --> 00:56:11.960 he really wouldn’t address the topic 00:56:11.960 --> 00:56:13.690 in any serious way. 00:56:13.690 --> 00:56:15.520 But, you know, 00:56:15.520 --> 00:56:18.140 I think they at least do bring a realization 00:56:18.140 --> 00:56:19.540 of what war is about. 00:56:21.060 --> 00:56:24.210 You know, Chuck Hagel, he saw—he’s 00:56:24.210 --> 00:56:25.920 never—I don’t know that he’s ever been 00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:28.070 completely honest about what he’s seen. 00:56:28.070 --> 00:56:29.780 If you read the accounts of his brother, 00:56:29.780 --> 00:56:33.560 who served in the same unit as him during the war— 00:56:33.560 --> 00:56:34.500 AMY GOODMAN: Which is very unusual. 00:56:34.500 --> 00:56:36.900 NICK TURSE: Very unusual, maybe the only time in Vietnam. 00:56:36.900 --> 00:56:39.790 But his brother paints a very brutal picture 00:56:39.790 --> 00:56:41.300 of the war, very similar to the one 00:56:41.300 --> 00:56:45.000 that I talk about in Kill Anything That Moves. 00:56:45.660 --> 00:56:47.210 And they served under one 00:56:47.210 --> 00:56:49.700 of the most notorious commanders in Vietnam, 00:56:49.700 --> 00:56:51.320 a general named Julian Ewell, 00:56:51.320 --> 00:56:54.080 who was—became known within the military, 00:56:54.080 --> 00:56:56.880 and also outside of it, as the "Butcher of the Mekong Delta." 00:56:57.680 --> 00:57:02.590 And Ewell was a—what they called a body count fanatic. 00:57:02.590 --> 00:57:04.860 And he demanded Vietnamese bodies, 00:57:04.860 --> 00:57:09.500 and he wasn’t very discerning about who they belonged to. 00:57:09.500 --> 00:57:13.510 So, just about any Vietnamese who was called in 00:57:13.510 --> 00:57:16.280 as a enemy casualty was counted up 00:57:16.280 --> 00:57:17.670 as "enemy dead." 00:57:17.670 --> 00:57:22.660 But, you know, just as the Hagel brothers were leaving Vietnam, 00:57:22.660 --> 00:57:25.860 Ewell kicked off an operation called Speedy Express, 00:57:25.860 --> 00:57:27.350 which I talk about in the book, 00:57:27.950 --> 00:57:31.810 which led to 11,000 Vietnamese casualties, 00:57:31.810 --> 00:57:37.060 but only resulted in around 750 weapons being recovered. 00:57:37.060 --> 00:57:39.890 Some Newsweek reporters looked into this a couple years 00:57:39.890 --> 00:57:41.970 after Speedy Express ended and came up 00:57:41.970 --> 00:57:46.620 with an estimate of 5,000 civilians 00:57:46.620 --> 00:57:48.150 killed during that operation. 00:57:48.150 --> 00:57:50.060 And when I went into the archives, 00:57:50.060 --> 00:57:52.080 I found the military’s own secret reports 00:57:52.080 --> 00:57:54.970 that the Newsweek reporters didn’t know about, 00:57:54.970 --> 00:57:57.330 and the estimates were—they show 00:57:57.330 --> 00:57:58.670 that the Newsweek estimates were low. 00:57:59.210 --> 00:58:02.770 The military estimated about 7,000 civilian casualties. 00:58:02.770 --> 00:58:05.010 So, I mean, this is the type of war 00:58:05.010 --> 00:58:07.380 that Chuck Hagel saw down there, 00:58:08.170 --> 00:58:09.910 and John Kerry operated 00:58:09.910 --> 00:58:12.450 in roughly the same area down in the Delta, 00:58:12.450 --> 00:58:15.580 so they do know something about the brutality of war. 00:58:15.580 --> 00:58:17.150 AMY GOODMAN: Nick Turse. 00:58:17.150 --> 00:58:20.520 His book is Kill Anything That Moves: 00:58:20.520 --> 00:58:23.800 The Real American War in Vietnam. 00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:25.150 This is Democracy Now!, 00:58:25.150 --> 00:58:27.760 democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. 00:58:27.760 --> 00:58:30.490 I want to let people know of two upcoming Democracy Now! 00:58:30.490 --> 00:58:32.180 specials. On Monday, 00:58:32.180 --> 00:58:33.810 we’ll be covering the inauguration 00:58:33.810 --> 00:58:35.050 from 8:00 Eastern time 00:58:35.050 --> 00:58:36.730 in the morning to 1:00 in the afternoon. 00:58:36.730 --> 00:58:38.620 We’ll be in Washington, D.C. 00:58:39.420 --> 00:58:41.120 And from Tuesday to Friday, 00:58:41.120 --> 00:58:43.110 we’ll be at the Sundance Film Festival—it’s 00:58:43.110 --> 00:58:44.710 the 10th anniversary 00:58:44.710 --> 00:58:48.150 of the documentary track of that festival—speaking 00:58:48.150 --> 00:58:49.830 with documentary filmmakers, 00:58:49.830 --> 00:58:51.880 covering issues, domestic and abroad.