WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.049 --> 00:00:17.410 From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now! 2 00:00:17.410 --> 00:00:24.410 Brothers and sisters, good evening. As you know, the duty of the conclave is to give 3 00:00:34.860 --> 00:00:41.860 Rome a bishop. It seems that my brother cardinals went almost to the end of the world, but we 4 00:00:44.899 --> 00:00:46.229 are here. 5 00:00:46.229 --> 00:00:52.399 A pope from the Americas. The Catholic Church chooses Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio to become 6 00:00:52.399 --> 00:00:57.789 the first pope from Latin America and the first Jesuit to head the Catholic Church. 7 00:00:57.789 --> 00:01:02.870 While praised for his work with the poor, the new pope has long been dogged by accusations 8 00:01:02.870 --> 00:01:07.310 of his role during the military dictatorship in Argentina. We’ll speak with a leading 9 00:01:07.310 --> 00:01:12.440 Argentine journalist who exposed the new pope’s connection to the abduction of two Jesuit 10 00:01:12.440 --> 00:01:17.590 priests by the dictatorship, as well as his alleged role in helping to hide political 11 00:01:17.590 --> 00:01:22.640 prisoners from a visiting delegation of the Inter-American Human Rights Commission. 12 00:01:22.640 --> 00:01:29.640 All that and more, coming up. 13 00:01:29.830 --> 00:01:35.959 Welcome to Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 14 00:01:35.959 --> 00:01:41.619 A papal conclave has selected Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, Argentina, 15 00:01:41.619 --> 00:01:46.700 to be the new pope. He replaces Pope Benedict XVI, who shocked the Catholic Church last 16 00:01:46.700 --> 00:01:52.039 month when he became the first pontiff to resign in almost 600 years. Bergoglio has 17 00:01:52.039 --> 00:01:56.660 taken the name Pope Francis. He is the first pope from Latin America and the first not 18 00:01:56.660 --> 00:02:01.849 to hail from Europe in more than 1,000 years. He’s also the first to come from the Jesuit 19 00:02:01.849 --> 00:02:07.300 order of priests, which is known for its work on social justice. He is viewed as a theological 20 00:02:07.300 --> 00:02:12.959 conservative who has staunchly opposed abortion, same-sex marriage and the ordination of women. 21 00:02:12.959 --> 00:02:17.440 In Argentina, he has long been dogged by reports that he aided the military dictatorship in 22 00:02:17.440 --> 00:02:24.110 the 1970s. 23 00:02:24.110 --> 00:02:28.130 President Obama met with House Republicans on Wednesday in a bid to resolve the ongoing 24 00:02:28.130 --> 00:02:34.140 standoff over a budget deal. Obama has sparked concern over his willingness to discuss cutting 25 00:02:34.140 --> 00:02:38.400 safety net programs with Republicans in a bid to cut spending. But on Wednesday, Obama 26 00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:43.450 appeared to directly reject Republicans’ stated priority of reducing spending to trim 27 00:02:43.450 --> 00:02:48.020 the deficit, reportedly telling them: "Our biggest problems in the next 10 years are 28 00:02:48.020 --> 00:02:53.480 not deficits." The meeting followed the release of the Republicans’ 2014 budget by Congressmember 29 00:02:53.480 --> 00:02:58.260 Paul Ryan of Wisconsin. Ryan’s plan would balance the budget in 10 years through major 30 00:02:58.260 --> 00:03:03.120 cuts to social programs, including the repeal of President Obama’s healthcare law. Speaking 31 00:03:03.120 --> 00:03:08.000 to ABC News, President Obama said his differences with Republicans may be too wide to reach 32 00:03:08.000 --> 00:03:08.750 a deal. 33 00:03:08.750 --> 00:03:13.730 President Obama: "Ultimately, it may be that the differences are just too wide. If their 34 00:03:13.730 --> 00:03:20.430 position is 'We can't do any revenue,’ or 'We can only do revenue if we gut Medicare 35 00:03:20.430 --> 00:03:26.640 or gut Social Security or gut Medicaid,' if that’s the position, then we’re probably 36 00:03:26.640 --> 00:03:29.100 not going to be able to get a deal." 37 00:03:29.100 --> 00:03:34.580 Obama’s comments also came as Senate Democrats released their 2014 budget. The plan includes 38 00:03:34.580 --> 00:03:39.580 a proposal for a new economic stimulus of $100 billion to fund job training and the 39 00:03:39.580 --> 00:03:42.319 repair of roads and bridges. 40 00:03:42.319 --> 00:03:47.150 Colorado state lawmakers have given final approval to some of the toughest gun control 41 00:03:47.150 --> 00:03:52.540 laws in the country. The measures include a limit on ammunition magazines to 15 rounds, 42 00:03:52.540 --> 00:03:57.220 forcing gun buyers to pay for background checks, a requirement that domestic abusers surrender 43 00:03:57.220 --> 00:04:03.310 their guns, and a ban on obtaining concealed-carry permits online. Democratic Governor John Hickenlooper 44 00:04:03.310 --> 00:04:06.580 has pledged to sign the measures into law. 45 00:04:06.580 --> 00:04:11.380 An Egyptian government inquiry has found the regime of ousted President Hosni Mubarak was 46 00:04:11.380 --> 00:04:17.060 behind nearly all of the roughly 900 killings of protesters during the country’s uprising. 47 00:04:17.060 --> 00:04:21.590 According to the Associated Press, a fact-finding commission has confirmed Mubarak’s regime 48 00:04:21.590 --> 00:04:26.930 used rooftop snipers to fire into large crowds around Cairo’s Tahrir Square. The report 49 00:04:26.930 --> 00:04:31.460 cites internal government records of assault rifles and ammunition rounds showing that 50 00:04:31.460 --> 00:04:36.080 police shootings were widespread. The report concludes the shootings could only have been 51 00:04:36.080 --> 00:04:42.330 approved by Mubarak’s former interior minister, Habib el-Adly, with Mubarak’s blessing. 52 00:04:42.330 --> 00:04:47.680 The findings come ahead of a retrial for Mubarak and el-Adly on charges of failing to stop 53 00:04:47.680 --> 00:04:53.050 the killings after they successfully appealed their convictions last June. 54 00:04:53.050 --> 00:04:57.460 Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has won an agreement for a new governing coalition 55 00:04:57.460 --> 00:05:03.020 after weeks of negotiations. Netanyahu made a deal to bring in parties controlling 68 56 00:05:03.020 --> 00:05:09.020 of the Israeli parliament’s 120 seats. The agreement excludes former allies in Israel’s 57 00:05:09.020 --> 00:05:13.580 far-right religious parties to include more centrist partners, including former Israeli 58 00:05:13.580 --> 00:05:19.099 Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni. President Obama is due to visit Israel next week. 59 00:05:19.099 --> 00:05:24.550 A funeral was held in the occupied West Bank on Wednesday for the latest unarmed Palestinian 60 00:05:24.550 --> 00:05:31.059 shot dead by Israeli troops. Twenty-five-year-old Mahmoud Titi was among a group of people fired 61 00:05:31.059 --> 00:05:35.710 on by Israeli forces during a raid near the city of Hebron. Titi’s cousin said he was 62 00:05:35.710 --> 00:05:37.439 killed while filming the raid. 63 00:05:37.439 --> 00:05:43.439 Ali Titi: "He had a smartphone and was filming from about 100 meters away from the army jeeps. 64 00:05:43.439 --> 00:05:47.870 At a distance of 100 meters, a stone cannot reach; logically, it cannot reach if you’re 65 00:05:47.870 --> 00:05:52.849 that far away. A sniper soldier shot him, using only one bullet. And before Mahmoud 66 00:05:52.849 --> 00:05:57.580 died, they started targeting the shops. The shopkeepers had already closed the shops themselves, 67 00:05:57.580 --> 00:05:58.770 but the army was shooting." 68 00:05:58.770 --> 00:06:03.439 Titi was the sixth Palestinian killed by the Israeli occupation force in the West Bank 69 00:06:03.439 --> 00:06:04.969 this year. 70 00:06:04.969 --> 00:06:08.270 Military officials appeared before a Senate panel on Wednesday to answer questions over 71 00:06:08.270 --> 00:06:13.999 the failure to halt the epidemic of sexual assault within their ranks. Some 19,000 members 72 00:06:13.999 --> 00:06:19.469 of the military were sexually assaulted in the 2011 fiscal year. Fewer than one in 10 73 00:06:19.469 --> 00:06:24.639 of the perpetrators whose attacks were reported have actually been held accountable. The landmark 74 00:06:24.639 --> 00:06:30.419 hearing came amid controversy over the reinstatement of Air Force Lt. Col. James Wilkerson, who 75 00:06:30.419 --> 00:06:36.419 was found guilty of aggravated sexual assault before Air Force Lt. Gen. Craig Franklin tossed 76 00:06:36.419 --> 00:06:43.110 out the conviction. New York senator and panel chair, Kirsten Gillibrand, blasted the military’s 77 00:06:43.110 --> 00:06:44.659 handling of sexual assault. 78 00:06:44.659 --> 00:06:51.369 Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand: "I am extremely disturbed, based on the last round of question and answer, 79 00:06:51.369 --> 00:06:56.419 that each of you believes that the convening authority is what maintains discipline and 80 00:06:56.419 --> 00:07:02.930 order within your ranks. If that is your view, I don’t know how you can say that having 81 00:07:02.930 --> 00:07:09.479 19,000 sexual assaults and rapes a year is discipline and order. I appreciate the work 82 00:07:09.479 --> 00:07:14.939 you are doing, I honestly do. But it’s not enough. And if you think you are achieving 83 00:07:14.939 --> 00:07:21.939 discipline and order with your current convening authority framework, I am sorry to say you 84 00:07:22.539 --> 00:07:23.759 are wrong." 85 00:07:23.759 --> 00:07:28.319 A trial has begun in Ohio for two high school football players accused of raping a female 86 00:07:28.319 --> 00:07:33.699 classmate last August. The young men possibly urinated on the girl’s unconscious body, 87 00:07:33.699 --> 00:07:39.219 later chronicling their actions on social media sites. During opening statements, prosecutors 88 00:07:39.219 --> 00:07:43.559 said the victim was too drunk to make a decision on her welfare and vowed to introduce the 89 00:07:43.559 --> 00:07:47.629 suspects’ social media postings as evidence. 90 00:07:47.629 --> 00:07:52.460 Attorneys for the late Internet freedom activist Aaron Swartz have filed an ethics complaint 91 00:07:52.460 --> 00:07:57.939 over his federal prosecution. Swartz took his own life in January, weeks before he was 92 00:07:57.939 --> 00:08:03.270 set to go to trial for downloading millions of articles provided by the nonprofit research 93 00:08:03.270 --> 00:08:10.270 service JSTOR. He was facing 35 years in prison, a penalty supporters called excessively harsh. 94 00:08:10.409 --> 00:08:13.309 In a letter to the Justice Department obtained by The Washington Post, Swartz’s attorney 95 00:08:13.309 --> 00:08:20.289 Elliot Peters accuses federal prosecutors of misconduct, saying they withheld exculpatory 96 00:08:20.289 --> 00:08:24.929 evidence. An email withheld from Swartz’s attorneys appears to refute prosecutors’ 97 00:08:24.929 --> 00:08:29.679 claims they didn’t have enough time to obtain a warrant to search Swartz’s laptop. The 98 00:08:29.679 --> 00:08:35.240 letter’s release comes one week after Attorney General Eric Holder publicly defended prosecutors’ 99 00:08:35.240 --> 00:08:41.500 conduct, saying their case against Swartz marked "a good use of prosecutorial discretion." 100 00:08:41.500 --> 00:08:45.820 Unrest again broke out in the Brooklyn area of New York Wednesday night at a protest over 101 00:08:45.820 --> 00:08:50.810 the police shooting of 16-year-old Kimani Gray. Gray was shot dead by two plainclothes 102 00:08:50.810 --> 00:08:56.050 officers who claimed he had a gun, but one witness has said he was unarmed, and another 103 00:08:56.050 --> 00:09:00.170 has said he may not have known he was being approached by police. Gray died from seven 104 00:09:00.170 --> 00:09:05.399 bullet wounds. On Wednesday night, at least 45 people were arrested after clashes broke 105 00:09:05.399 --> 00:09:10.160 out between demonstrators and police in the neighborhood of East Flatbush. A group of 106 00:09:10.160 --> 00:09:15.680 demonstrators had thrown bottles after police officers seized Gray’s sister and gave her 107 00:09:15.680 --> 00:09:16.889 a summons. 108 00:09:16.889 --> 00:09:21.889 The source of the secret video showing Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney dismissing 109 00:09:21.889 --> 00:09:26.480 47 percent of the U.S. electorate has come forward to reveal his identity and explain 110 00:09:26.480 --> 00:09:31.279 his motives. The video was secretly recorded at a Romney fundraiser in Florida in May. 111 00:09:31.279 --> 00:09:34.889 On the tape, Romney describes nearly half of the American electorate as people "dependent 112 00:09:34.889 --> 00:09:35.139 upon government, who believe that they are victims." 113 00:09:34.930 --> 00:09:35.180 Mitt Romney: "There are 47 percent of the people who will vote for the president no 114 00:09:35.009 --> 00:09:36.300 matter what. All right, there are 47 percent who are with him, who are dependent upon government, 115 00:09:36.300 --> 00:09:43.300 who believe that they are victims, who believe that government has a responsibility to care 116 00:09:46.560 --> 00:09:53.560 for them, who believe that they’re entitled to healthcare, to food, to housing, to you-name-it, 117 00:10:03.680 --> 00:10:04.220 that that’s — it’s entitlement, and the government should give it to them. And 118 00:10:04.220 --> 00:10:04.529 they will vote for this president no matter what." 119 00:10:04.529 --> 00:10:08.870 The video’s release by the magazine Mother Jones upended the 2012 presidential campaign, 120 00:10:08.870 --> 00:10:15.069 with many believing it doomed Romney’s chances. The tape also sparked new public debate over 121 00:10:15.069 --> 00:10:20.149 inequality in the U.S. and the attitudes of the wealthy toward lower-income Americans. 122 00:10:20.149 --> 00:10:25.779 The source remained unknown until Wednesday, when Scott Prouty, a bartender at the event, 123 00:10:25.779 --> 00:10:28.149 came forward in an interview with MSNBC’s Ed Schultz. 124 00:10:28.149 --> 00:10:35.149 Scott Prouty: "My name is Scott Prouty. I’m a regular guy, middle-class, hardworking guy. 125 00:10:37.019 --> 00:10:44.019 You know, I think — I’d like to think I have a good moral compass and a core, and 126 00:10:46.879 --> 00:10:50.600 I think I have a little bit of empathy. I think I have a little more empathy than Mitt 127 00:10:50.600 --> 00:10:56.910 Romney had. I don’t know how to describe myself, but I was behind this whole thing. 128 00:10:56.910 --> 00:11:01.379 I was bartending that night for the Romney fundraiser." 129 00:11:01.379 --> 00:11:06.399 Prouty said he had brought his camera along after seeing former President Bill Clinton 130 00:11:06.399 --> 00:11:12.629 take pictures with fellow workers at a previous event. But he said Romney’s comments spurred 131 00:11:12.629 --> 00:11:16.870 him to make a full recording and then release it to the public to show average Americans 132 00:11:16.870 --> 00:11:20.370 how Romney spoke about them to wealthy donors behind closed doors. 133 00:11:20.370 --> 00:11:25.569 Scott Prouty: "There’s a lot of people that can’t afford to pay $50,000 for one night, 134 00:11:25.569 --> 00:11:32.569 for one dinner. And I felt an obligation, in a way, to release it. I felt an obligation 135 00:11:32.649 --> 00:11:37.410 for all the people who can’t afford to be there. You shouldn’t have to be able to 136 00:11:37.410 --> 00:11:43.579 afford $50,000 to hear what the candidate actually thinks. I don’t think he has any 137 00:11:43.579 --> 00:11:48.959 clue what a regular American goes through on a daily basis. I don’t think he has any 138 00:11:48.959 --> 00:11:54.360 idea what a single mom [experiences] — you know, taking a bus to work, dropping her kid 139 00:11:54.360 --> 00:12:00.160 off at a day care, that she can barely afford, hopping on another bus. You know, the day-in, 140 00:12:00.160 --> 00:12:07.160 day-out struggles of everyday Americans, that guy has no idea. No idea. And I don’t think 141 00:12:08.420 --> 00:12:09.639 he’ll ever have an idea." 142 00:12:09.639 --> 00:12:14.250 Although Romney’s 47 percent comments sparked a national controversy, Prouty said he was 143 00:12:14.250 --> 00:12:18.459 most disturbed by Romney’s bragging about a Chinese factory he had invested in, where 144 00:12:18.459 --> 00:12:22.750 workers lived in harsh conditions. Prouty says he remained anonymous until now in order 145 00:12:22.750 --> 00:12:27.529 to protect his livelihood and to keep the focus on Romney’s words. In a recent interview 146 00:12:27.529 --> 00:12:32.769 with Fox News, Romney acknowledged the video’s release was partially to blame for his loss 147 00:12:32.769 --> 00:12:35.839 and insisted he doesn’t believe what he was recorded saying. 148 00:12:35.839 --> 00:12:42.839 Mitt Romney: "It was a very unfortunate statement that I made. It’s not what I meant. I didn’t 149 00:12:42.990 --> 00:12:49.449 express myself as I wished I would have. You know, when you speak in private, you don’t 150 00:12:49.449 --> 00:12:52.870 spend as much time thinking about how something could be twisted and distorted and — and 151 00:12:52.870 --> 00:12:56.860 it could come out wrong and be used. But, you know, I did. And it was very harmful. 152 00:12:56.860 --> 00:13:01.579 What I said is not what I believe. Obviously, my whole campaign — my whole life has been 153 00:13:01.579 --> 00:13:06.439 devoted to helping people, all of the people. I care about all the people of the country. 154 00:13:06.439 --> 00:13:10.199 But that hurt. There’s no question that hurt and did real damage to my campaign." 155 00:13:10.199 --> 00:13:14.519 And those are some of the headlines this is Democracy Now, Democracynow.org, the War and 156 00:13:14.519 --> 00:13:19.730 Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 157 00:13:19.730 --> 00:13:26.730 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: A papal conclave has selected Cardinal Jorge Mario Bergoglio of Buenos Aires, 158 00:13:27.189 --> 00:13:33.230 Argentina, to be the new pope. He replaces Pope Benedict XVI, who shocked the Catholic 159 00:13:33.230 --> 00:13:38.790 Church last month when he became the first pontiff to resign in almost 600 years. Bergoglio 160 00:13:38.790 --> 00:13:43.310 is the first pope from Latin America and the first not to hail from Europe in more than 161 00:13:43.310 --> 00:13:48.370 a thousand years. He’s also the first to come from the Jesuit order of priests, which 162 00:13:48.370 --> 00:13:50.949 is known for its work on social justice. 163 00:13:50.949 --> 00:13:55.920 On Wednesday, the new Pope Francis took to the balcony of St. Peters wearing an unadorned 164 00:13:55.920 --> 00:14:01.089 white robe. He briefly addressed the thousands of Catholic pilgrims waiting to greet him. 165 00:14:01.089 --> 00:14:08.089 POPE FRANCIS: [translated] Brothers and sisters, good evening. As you know, the duty of the 166 00:14:16.529 --> 00:14:23.529 conclave is to give Rome a bishop. It seems that my brother cardinals went almost to the 167 00:14:24.180 --> 00:14:31.180 end of the world, but we are here. First of all, I would like to pray for Benedict, our 168 00:14:40.540 --> 00:14:47.540 bishop emeritus. We pray all together for him for God to bless him and for the Madonna 169 00:14:54.439 --> 00:14:56.180 to hold him. 170 00:14:56.180 --> 00:15:02.670 AMY GOODMAN: Pope Francis is viewed as a theological conservative who staunchly opposed abortion, 171 00:15:02.670 --> 00:15:07.029 same-sex marriage and the ordination of women. Here in the United States, the Jubilee USA 172 00:15:07.029 --> 00:15:12.089 Network praised his selection for his devotion to the poor. In Argentina, he’s long been 173 00:15:12.089 --> 00:15:16.259 dogged by reports he aided the military dictatorship in the ’70s. 174 00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:20.959 Later in the broadcast, we’ll go to Argentina to speak with a leading investigative journalist 175 00:15:20.959 --> 00:15:24.800 who has written extensively about the role of the new pope during Argentina’s military 176 00:15:24.800 --> 00:15:30.769 dictatorship. But we begin our show with Tom Roberts, editor-at-large at the National Catholic 177 00:15:30.769 --> 00:15:34.370 Reporter, author of The Emerging Catholic Church: A Community’s Search for Itself. 178 00:15:34.370 --> 00:15:37.079 He joins us from Kansas City, Missouri. 179 00:15:37.079 --> 00:15:42.389 Tom, welcome to Democracy Now! Give us a thumbnail history of the new pope, Pope Francis. 180 00:15:42.389 --> 00:15:49.389 TOM ROBERTS: Well, he is 76 years old, which puts him on sort of the older end of the scale 181 00:15:50.199 --> 00:15:57.199 for a new pope. He was educated in Argentina and also in Rome and Germany. He kind of embodies 182 00:15:59.829 --> 00:16:06.829 that mix of European and developing world, First World and developing world sensibilities. 183 00:16:09.959 --> 00:16:16.040 He is a Jesuit. And as you mentioned earlier in the lead-up, a lot of firsts in this one: 184 00:16:16.040 --> 00:16:22.329 the first Jesuit, the first non-European in a long, long time. He’s the first one to 185 00:16:22.329 --> 00:16:27.850 be named Francis. And so, it’s an interesting—he’s an academic. He started life as a—pursuing 186 00:16:27.850 --> 00:16:34.800 a career in chemistry, decided to join the Jesuits, rose quickly in their ranks. He was 187 00:16:34.800 --> 00:16:41.800 named a bishop by John Paul II, I think in 2001, and then rose to the ranks of cardinal. 188 00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:47.720 So he’s been around for quite a while. He’s been in leadership positions, but not in Rome 189 00:16:47.720 --> 00:16:54.439 and not in the Vatican bureaucracy. So, it is, again, a very interesting choice because 190 00:16:54.439 --> 00:17:01.439 of all the firsts and the fact that he’s outside of the normal wheel of Vatican influence 191 00:17:01.589 --> 00:17:02.149 and that culture. 192 00:17:02.149 --> 00:17:08.850 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Tom, the significance again of some of these breakthroughs here, 193 00:17:08.850 --> 00:17:13.829 these firsts, specifically about the—him being a Jesuit? Obviously, the Jesuits have 194 00:17:13.829 --> 00:17:20.010 always been considered the intellectuals or the philosophers of the church. Way back in 195 00:17:20.010 --> 00:17:26.510 the colonial period, the Spanish monarchy expelled them from the Americas because of 196 00:17:26.510 --> 00:17:31.180 their role, their social role. That particular significance? 197 00:17:31.180 --> 00:17:38.100 TOM ROBERTS: Well, I think that for any order priest—it’s significant for any order 198 00:17:38.100 --> 00:17:42.630 priest to be elected pope—I don’t know how many of them there have been—but especially 199 00:17:42.630 --> 00:17:48.910 Jesuits, who have a particular charism, have been big players in the church through history. 200 00:17:48.910 --> 00:17:55.520 And they are noted for, you know, intellectual accomplishments, for raising institutions 201 00:17:55.520 --> 00:18:02.520 of higher learning, and for the social justice component. I mean, they’ve been strong social 202 00:18:02.530 --> 00:18:05.410 justice advocates in many areas of the world. 203 00:18:05.410 --> 00:18:10.910 I think the other thing that is distinctive—and this has nothing to do with him being a Jesuit 204 00:18:10.910 --> 00:18:17.910 as much as it does an approach toward ecclesiology and also what it means to be a religious leader—is 205 00:18:18.480 --> 00:18:25.480 the way he lives. When he became a cardinal, became bishop of Buenos Aires, he didn’t 206 00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:33.720 take the big mansion. He gave up the driver and the car. He takes the bus to work, as 207 00:18:33.720 --> 00:18:40.720 they say, often takes the equivalent of the subway. He really does live a life identified 208 00:18:41.390 --> 00:18:46.360 with the poor. He lives in a simple apartment, cooks his own meals, and has really been identified 209 00:18:46.360 --> 00:18:53.360 with a very, very strong social justice current in Latin America. He has used language about 210 00:18:55.730 --> 00:19:01.210 the inequalities between countries and talks about Argentina as one of the most unequal 211 00:19:01.210 --> 00:19:07.290 places in the world, talks about the unjust distribution of goods as a social sin. 212 00:19:07.290 --> 00:19:12.630 So, there are a lot of characteristics to him that don’t fit any categories, except 213 00:19:12.630 --> 00:19:18.810 that he comes from the Global South, and there we find leaders, religious leaders, who have 214 00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:23.420 very, very strong social justice instincts, even though, on many of the issues, as you’ve 215 00:19:23.420 --> 00:19:27.010 noted, he would be considered a theological conservative, which would not be rare, by 216 00:19:27.010 --> 00:19:32.280 the way, for any of those cardinals. I mean, you’re not going to find a liberal or someone 217 00:19:32.280 --> 00:19:37.300 that—somebody in the developed North would call liberal on those issues in that conclave. 218 00:19:37.300 --> 00:19:42.790 AMY GOODMAN: And finally, Tom Roberts, the significance of him choosing the name Francis, 219 00:19:42.790 --> 00:19:45.090 Pope Francis, for Francis of Assisi? 220 00:19:45.090 --> 00:19:50.490 TOM ROBERTS: Yes, and he made it clear that it was for Francis of Assisi and not Francis 221 00:19:50.490 --> 00:19:57.490 Xavier, one of the early Jesuits. The significance, I think, cuts a number of ways. First of all, 222 00:19:58.250 --> 00:20:05.250 I think that it’s a recognition, if Francis is used as a reform figure, for the—the 223 00:20:07.150 --> 00:20:13.730 recognition of the need for reform in the church, a getting back to the gospel. He doesn’t 224 00:20:13.730 --> 00:20:19.870 like—and it’s been pretty well chronicled—doesn’t like rigid clericalism. He doesn’t like 225 00:20:19.870 --> 00:20:26.560 all the fuss of elaborate clothes. Again, simplicity is the order for him. And he came 226 00:20:26.560 --> 00:20:32.570 out in a plain white cassock, none of the—none of the other frills that can go along with 227 00:20:32.570 --> 00:20:34.890 that first entrance. 228 00:20:34.890 --> 00:20:40.560 The other thing he did was he bowed in prayer to the group, to the crowd before him, and 229 00:20:40.560 --> 00:20:46.620 asked them to pray for him first before he gave them his blessing, which is a significant 230 00:20:46.620 --> 00:20:51.090 sign of humility. And the other thing he did, which I think was very endearing to Catholics 231 00:20:51.090 --> 00:20:57.340 worldwide, was that he asked them to pray with him, and he prayed very familiar prayers—you 232 00:20:57.340 --> 00:21:02.820 know, the Our Father and the Hail Mary. Catholics worldwide are familiar with those. And so, 233 00:21:02.820 --> 00:21:09.410 it was a meeting of someone we could understand. This was not elevated theology. This was not, 234 00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:16.410 you know, a triumphal entry. This was a very humble "Walk with me," as he said. "Let’s 235 00:21:16.580 --> 00:21:21.920 begin this journey together, and let’s pray the simple prayers that we all know. And before 236 00:21:21.920 --> 00:21:28.670 I, as pontiff, bless you, pray for me." So it was a really different—a different entrance 237 00:21:28.670 --> 00:21:30.140 of a new pontiff, introduction of a new pope. 238 00:21:30.140 --> 00:21:33.890 AMY GOODMAN: Tom Roberts, we want to thank you for being with us, editor-at-large at 239 00:21:33.890 --> 00:21:38.240 the National Catholic Reporter, author of The Emerging Catholic Church: A Community’s 240 00:21:38.240 --> 00:21:42.950 Search for Itself. When we come back, we’re going to Buenos Aires to speak with the leading 241 00:21:42.950 --> 00:21:49.360 investigative journalist, Horacio Verbitsky, to talk about the role that the new pope, 242 00:21:49.360 --> 00:21:55.880 Pope Francis, played during the 1970s, during what is known in Argentina as the "dirty wars." 243 00:21:55.880 --> 00:22:02.880 Stay with us. 244 00:22:21.590 --> 00:22:28.590 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: For more on the new pope, we turn now to one of Argentina’s leading 245 00:23:15.530 --> 00:23:20.460 investigative journalists, Horacio Verbitsky, who has written extensively about the career 246 00:23:20.460 --> 00:23:25.490 of Cardinal Bergoglio and his actions during the military dictatorship that ruled Argentina 247 00:23:25.490 --> 00:23:32.490 from 1976 to 1983. During that time, up to 30,000 people were kidnapped and killed. A 248 00:23:33.340 --> 00:23:39.930 2005 lawsuit accused Jorge Bergoglio of being connected to the 1976 kidnappings of two Jesuit 249 00:23:39.930 --> 00:23:46.510 priests, Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics. The lawsuit was filed after the publication 250 00:23:46.510 --> 00:23:52.560 of Verbitsky’s book, The Silence: From Paul VI to Bergoglio: The Secret Relations Between 251 00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:57.670 the Church and the ESMA. ESMA refers to the former navy school that was turned into a 252 00:23:57.670 --> 00:24:01.820 detention center where people were tortured by the military dictatorship. The new pope 253 00:24:01.820 --> 00:24:07.280 has denied the charges. He twice invoked his right under Argentine law to refuse to appear 254 00:24:07.280 --> 00:24:12.940 in open court to testify about the allegations. When he eventually did testify in 2010, human 255 00:24:12.940 --> 00:24:15.290 rights activists characterized his answers as evasive. 256 00:24:15.290 --> 00:24:19.690 AMY GOODMAN: Horacio Verbitsky joins us on the phone now from his home in Buenos Aires, 257 00:24:19.690 --> 00:24:26.270 an investigative journalist for the newspaper Página/12; Page/12, it’s called in English. 258 00:24:26.270 --> 00:24:31.300 He is also head of the Center for Legal and Social Studies, an Argentine human rights 259 00:24:31.300 --> 00:24:32.620 organization. 260 00:24:32.620 --> 00:24:39.450 We welcome you to Democracy Now! I wanted to just begin by you laying out for us what 261 00:24:39.450 --> 00:24:44.040 you believe is important to understand about the new pope, Pope Francis. 262 00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:51.040 HORACIO VERBITSKY: The main thing to understand about Francis I is that he’s a conservative 263 00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:59.640 populist, in the same style that John Paul II was. He’s a man of strong conservative 264 00:25:05.510 --> 00:25:12.510 positions in doctrine questions, but with a touch for popular taste. He preaches in 265 00:25:17.720 --> 00:25:24.720 rail stations, in the streets. He goes to the quarters, the poor quarters of the city 266 00:25:33.140 --> 00:25:40.140 to pray. He doesn’t wait the people going into the church; he goes for them. But his 267 00:25:46.090 --> 00:25:53.090 message is absolutely conservative. He was opposed to abortion, to the egalitarian matrimony 268 00:25:59.230 --> 00:26:06.230 law. He launched a crusade against the evil when Congress was passing this law, and in 269 00:26:13.020 --> 00:26:20.020 the very same style that John Paul II. This is what I consider the main feature on the 270 00:26:22.710 --> 00:26:25.150 new pope. 271 00:26:25.150 --> 00:26:32.150 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, now, Horacio Verbitsky, that would be true of many of the cardinals 272 00:26:33.590 --> 00:26:40.590 elevated during the period of John Paul and now also of Benedict XVI, this basic conservatism. 273 00:26:42.640 --> 00:26:48.740 But in the case of Bergoglio, there’s also the issue, as you have documented and many—and 274 00:26:48.740 --> 00:26:54.130 several other journalists in Argentina, of his particular role or accusations about his 275 00:26:54.130 --> 00:26:58.200 involvement in the dirty wars in Argentina. Could you talk about that and some of the 276 00:26:58.200 --> 00:27:03.850 things that—because you’ve been a leading investigative reporter uncovering the relations 277 00:27:03.850 --> 00:27:08.230 between the church and the government in terms of the dirty wars? 278 00:27:08.230 --> 00:27:15.230 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Of course. He was accused by two Jesuit priests of having surrendered 279 00:27:16.040 --> 00:27:23.040 them to the military. They were a group of Jesuits that were under Bergoglio’s direction. 280 00:27:25.720 --> 00:27:32.720 He was the provincial superior of the order in Argentina, being very, very young. He was 281 00:27:34.980 --> 00:27:41.980 the younger provincial Jesuit in history; at 36 years, he was provincial. During a period 282 00:27:44.160 --> 00:27:51.160 of great political activity in the Jesuits’ company, he stimulated the social work of 283 00:27:52.590 --> 00:27:59.590 the Jesuits. But when the military coup overthrow the Isabel Perón government, he was in touch 284 00:28:04.520 --> 00:28:11.520 with the military that ousted this government and asked the Jesuits to stop their social 285 00:28:12.780 --> 00:28:19.780 work. And when they refused to do it, he stopped protecting them, and he let the military know 286 00:28:25.150 --> 00:28:32.150 that they were not more inside the protection of the Jesuits’ company, and they were kidnapped. 287 00:28:35.910 --> 00:28:42.910 And they accuse him for this deed. He denies this. He said to me that he tried to get them 288 00:28:49.100 --> 00:28:56.100 free, that he talked with the former dictator, Videla, and with former dictator Massera to 289 00:28:56.830 --> 00:29:00.070 have them freed. 290 00:29:00.070 --> 00:29:07.070 And during a long period, I heard two versions: the version of the two kidnapped priests that 291 00:29:10.350 --> 00:29:17.350 were released after six months of torture and captivity, and the version of Bergoglio. 292 00:29:18.440 --> 00:29:25.440 This was an issue divisive in the human rights movement to which I belong, because the president 293 00:29:33.840 --> 00:29:40.840 founding of CELS, Center for Legal and Social Studies, Emilio Mignone, said that Bergoglio 294 00:29:43.470 --> 00:29:50.470 was a accomplice of the military, and a lawyer of the CELS, Alicia Oliveira, that was a friend 295 00:29:52.800 --> 00:29:59.800 of Bergoglio, tell the other part of the story, that Bergoglio helped them. This was the two—the 296 00:30:03.460 --> 00:30:04.950 two versions. 297 00:30:04.950 --> 00:30:11.950 But during the research for one of my books, I found documents in the archive of the foreign 298 00:30:15.170 --> 00:30:22.170 relations minister in Argentina, which, from my understanding, gave an end to the debate 299 00:30:26.400 --> 00:30:33.400 and show the double standard that Bergoglio used. The first document is a note in which 300 00:30:37.940 --> 00:30:44.940 Bergoglio asked the ministry to—the renewal of the passport of one of these two Jesuits 301 00:30:47.300 --> 00:30:54.300 that, after his releasing, was living in Germany, asking that the passport was renewed without 302 00:30:57.710 --> 00:31:04.710 necessity of this priest coming back to Argentina. The second document is a note from the officer 303 00:31:07.620 --> 00:31:14.620 that received the petition recommending to his superior, the minister, the refusal of 304 00:31:17.470 --> 00:31:24.470 the renewal of the passport. And the third document is a note from the same officer telling 305 00:31:26.730 --> 00:31:33.730 that these priests have links with subversion—that was the name that the military gave to all 306 00:31:38.380 --> 00:31:45.380 the people involved in opposition to the government, political or armed opposition to the military—and 307 00:31:47.270 --> 00:31:54.270 that he was jailed in the mechanics school of the navy, and saying that this information 308 00:32:01.580 --> 00:32:08.580 was provided to the officer by Father Jorge Mario Bergoglio, provincial superior of the 309 00:32:09.980 --> 00:32:16.980 Jesuit company. This means, to my understanding, a double standard. He asked the passport given 310 00:32:22.270 --> 00:32:29.270 to the priest in a formal note with his signature, but under the table he said the opposite and 311 00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:38.400 repeated the accusations that produced the kidnapping of these priests. 312 00:32:38.400 --> 00:32:45.110 AMY GOODMAN: And these priests—can you explain, Horacio, what happened to these two priests, 313 00:32:45.110 --> 00:32:48.550 Orlando Yorio and Francisco Jalics? 314 00:32:48.550 --> 00:32:55.550 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Yes. Orlando, after his releasing, went to Rome. 315 00:32:57.260 --> 00:32:59.580 AMY GOODMAN: How were they found? 316 00:32:59.580 --> 00:33:00.700 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Sorry? 317 00:33:00.700 --> 00:33:04.910 AMY GOODMAN: How were they found? In what condition were they? What had happened to 318 00:33:04.910 --> 00:33:05.440 them? 319 00:33:05.440 --> 00:33:12.440 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Well, he was released—both of them were released, drugged, confused, 320 00:33:17.350 --> 00:33:24.350 transported by helicopter to—in the outskirts of Buenos Aires, were abandoned, asleep by 321 00:33:27.220 --> 00:33:34.220 drugs, in very bad condition. They were tortured. They were interrogated. One of the interrogators 322 00:33:36.770 --> 00:33:43.770 had externally knowings about theological questions, that induced one of them, Orlando 323 00:33:48.510 --> 00:33:55.510 Yorio, to think that their own provincial, Bergoglio, had been involved in this interrogatory. 324 00:33:58.420 --> 00:34:05.420 AMY GOODMAN: He said that—he said that Bergoglio himself had been part of the—his own interrogation, 325 00:34:05.620 --> 00:34:06.990 this Jesuit priest? 326 00:34:06.990 --> 00:34:13.990 HORACIO VERBITSKY: He told me that he had the impression their own provincial, Bergoglio, 327 00:34:16.520 --> 00:34:23.520 was present during the interrogatory, which one of the interrogators had externally knowledge 328 00:34:24.740 --> 00:34:31.740 of theological questions. And when released, he went to Rome. He lived seven years in Rome, 329 00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:42.510 then come back to Argentina. And when coming back to Argentina, he was incardinated in 330 00:34:46.070 --> 00:34:52.520 the Quilmes diocesis in Great Buenos Aires, where the bishop was one of the leaders of 331 00:34:52.520 --> 00:34:59.520 the progressive branch of the Argentine church opposite to that of Bergoglio. And Orlando 332 00:35:02.570 --> 00:35:09.570 Yorio denounced Bergoglio. I received his testimony when Bergoglio was elected to the 333 00:35:12.690 --> 00:35:19.310 archbishop of Buenos Aires. And Bergoglio—I interviewed Bergoglio also, and he denied 334 00:35:19.310 --> 00:35:26.310 the charges, and he told me that he had defended them. 335 00:35:26.570 --> 00:35:33.570 And Orlando Yorio got me in touch with Francisco Jalics, that was living in Germany. I talked 336 00:35:35.220 --> 00:35:42.220 with him, and he confirmed the story, but he didn’t want to be mentioned in my piece, 337 00:35:47.890 --> 00:35:54.890 because he told me that he preferred to not remember this sad part of his life and to 338 00:35:55.660 --> 00:36:02.660 pardon. And he was for oblivion and pardon. That he was, during a lot of years, very resented 339 00:36:06.840 --> 00:36:13.840 against Bergoglio, but that he had decided to forgot and forget. And when I released 340 00:36:19.050 --> 00:36:26.050 the book with the story, one Argentine journalist working for a national agency, [inaudible], 341 00:36:30.680 --> 00:36:37.680 who has been a disciple of Jalics, talked with him and asked him for the story. And 342 00:36:40.930 --> 00:36:47.930 Jalics told him that he would not affirm, not deny the story. 343 00:36:54.340 --> 00:36:59.240 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Horacio—Horacio Verbitsky, I’d like to ask you about another priest 344 00:36:59.240 --> 00:37:06.240 who was involved in the dirty wars, Christian von Wernich, who was a former chaplain of 345 00:37:07.210 --> 00:37:14.210 the police department in Argentina and also later was convicted of being involved— 346 00:37:15.810 --> 00:37:22.810 HORACIO VERBITSKY: He was convicted—he was convicted, and he’s in jail, in a common 347 00:37:23.020 --> 00:37:30.020 jail, but the Argentine church, during the tenure of Bergoglio, hasn’t punished him, 348 00:37:33.260 --> 00:37:40.260 in canonical terms. He was convicted by the human justice, but by the church standards, 349 00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:52.120 he’s always a priest. And this tells something about Bergoglio and the Argentine church also. 350 00:37:53.880 --> 00:37:57.560 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And von Wernich was involved in murders, tortures and kidnappings. Could 351 00:37:57.560 --> 00:38:03.520 you detail some of the crimes that he was convicted of committing? 352 00:38:03.520 --> 00:38:06.810 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Bergoglio involved in the crimes of von Wernich? 353 00:38:06.810 --> 00:38:08.970 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: No, no, von Wernich. Von Wernich, I said. 354 00:38:08.970 --> 00:38:13.810 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Oh, von Wernich was part—was active part in torture and killings, and he 355 00:38:13.810 --> 00:38:20.810 was convicted not as an accomplice, but as a participant in the crimes. He was present 356 00:38:22.150 --> 00:38:29.150 during the torture sessions, von Wernich. And there is not the just one chaplain; there 357 00:38:31.690 --> 00:38:38.690 are some others that are under trial in this moment. Chaplain Regueiro is under house arrest 358 00:38:44.360 --> 00:38:51.360 because he’s an older man. A Chaplain Zitelli in Santa Fe province, for being present during 359 00:38:53.390 --> 00:38:59.950 torture sessions. So, there are a lot of them that were part of the dirty war. 360 00:38:59.950 --> 00:39:05.480 AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to read, Horacio, a part of a State Department cable released 361 00:39:05.480 --> 00:39:11.750 by WikiLeaks that references, well, the Roman Catholic priest Christian von Wernich, who 362 00:39:11.750 --> 00:39:16.430 you were just talking about, convicted in 2007 of being an accomplice in several cases 363 00:39:16.430 --> 00:39:20.980 of murder, torture and illegal imprisonment in Argentina during the military dictatorship. 364 00:39:20.980 --> 00:39:26.120 It notes the conviction came, quote, "at a time when some observers consider Roman Catholic 365 00:39:26.120 --> 00:39:31.560 primate Cardinal Bergoglio to be a leader of the opposition to the Kirchner administration 366 00:39:31.560 --> 00:39:37.980 because of his comments about social issues, the Von Wernich case could also have the effect, 367 00:39:37.980 --> 00:39:42.860 some believe, of undermining the Church’s (and, by extension, Cardinal Bergoglio’s) 368 00:39:42.860 --> 00:39:49.020 moral authority or capacity to comment on political, social or economic questions," 369 00:39:49.020 --> 00:39:54.970 unquote. That was a State Department cable that was released by WikiLeaks. Horacio, could 370 00:39:54.970 --> 00:39:56.360 you respond? 371 00:39:56.360 --> 00:40:03.360 HORACIO VERBITSKY: We can go attack this paper by parts. First of all, the State Department 372 00:40:04.670 --> 00:40:09.750 considered that Bergoglio was the chief of the position to the Kirchner government. And 373 00:40:09.750 --> 00:40:16.750 I agree with this statement. The State Department tells also that the conviction of Father von 374 00:40:21.880 --> 00:40:28.880 Wernich can be directed to undermine Bergoglio’s position. This is not true, to my understanding. 375 00:40:31.000 --> 00:40:38.000 The conviction of Father von Wernich is a consequence of a trial that started much before 376 00:40:41.150 --> 00:40:48.150 the Kirchners arriving to power and has its own judicial logic and not a political timetable. 377 00:40:50.360 --> 00:40:54.750 AMY GOODMAN: Horacio, are you still there? 378 00:40:54.750 --> 00:40:56.630 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Sorry? 379 00:40:56.630 --> 00:41:01.150 AMY GOODMAN: Ah, let me ask you a question. We thought we lost you for a minute. We’re 380 00:41:01.150 --> 00:41:06.490 talking to Horacio Verbitsky, a leading Argentine investigative journalist, well known for his 381 00:41:06.490 --> 00:41:13.490 human rights investigations. I wanted to ask you about this issue of hiding political prisoners 382 00:41:15.720 --> 00:41:21.830 when a human rights delegation came to Argentina. Can you tell us when this was, what are the 383 00:41:21.830 --> 00:41:28.830 allegations, and what was the role, if any, of Bergoglio, now Pope Francis? 384 00:41:28.830 --> 00:41:35.830 HORACIO VERBITSKY: No, in this episode, Bergoglio has no intervention. The intervention was 385 00:41:38.790 --> 00:41:45.790 from the cardinal that in that time was the chief of the church in Buenos Aires. That 386 00:41:47.869 --> 00:41:54.869 is the position that Bergoglio has in the present. But in that time, he was not archbishop 387 00:41:55.180 --> 00:42:02.180 of Buenos Aires. When the Inter-American Commission on Human Rights came into Argentina to investigate 388 00:42:04.110 --> 00:42:11.110 allegations of human rights violations, the navy took 60 prisoners out of ESMA and got 389 00:42:14.960 --> 00:42:21.960 them to a village that was used by the Cardinal Aramburu to his weekends. And in this weekend 390 00:42:31.340 --> 00:42:38.340 property were also the celebration each year of the new seminarians that ended their studies. 391 00:42:44.790 --> 00:42:51.790 In this villa in the outskirts of Buenos Aires were the prisoners during the visit of the 392 00:42:58.520 --> 00:43:05.520 Inter-American Commission on Human Rights. And when the commission visited ESMA, they 393 00:43:06.240 --> 00:43:13.240 did not find the prisoners that were supposed to be there, because they were— 394 00:43:13.640 --> 00:43:18.110 AMY GOODMAN: ESMA being—ESMA being the naval barracks were so many thousands of Argentines 395 00:43:18.110 --> 00:43:20.510 were held. So where were they? 396 00:43:20.510 --> 00:43:27.510 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Yes, but Bergoglio has no intervention in this—in this fact. Indeed, 397 00:43:28.480 --> 00:43:35.480 he helped me to investigate a case. He gave me the precise information about in which 398 00:43:42.420 --> 00:43:49.420 tribunal was the document demonstrating that this villa was owned by the church. 399 00:43:53.830 --> 00:44:00.830 AMY GOODMAN: He said that they were hidden in a villa that was owned by the Catholic 400 00:44:01.270 --> 00:44:02.480 Church? 401 00:44:02.480 --> 00:44:09.480 HORACIO VERBITSKY: Yes. And the prisoners were held in a weekend house that was the 402 00:44:13.520 --> 00:44:20.520 weekend house of the cardinal archbishop of Buenos Aires in that time. And Bergoglio gave 403 00:44:21.920 --> 00:44:28.920 me the precise information about the tribunal in which were the documents affirming this 404 00:44:33.830 --> 00:44:39.810 relationship between this property and the archbishop of Buenos Aires. 405 00:44:39.810 --> 00:44:45.600 AMY GOODMAN: We have to break, and then we’re going to come back to Horacio Verbitsky, as 406 00:44:45.600 --> 00:44:52.600 well as our guest in studio named Ernesto Semán, who is a historian at New York University, 407 00:44:52.660 --> 00:44:59.660 former reporter for the Argentine newspaper, both the same as Horacio’s newspaper, Página/12, 408 00:45:01.260 --> 00:45:06.890 and Clarín, where he reported on politics and human rights, as well as, well, Father 409 00:45:06.890 --> 00:45:13.890 Bergoglio, now Pope Francis. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back 410 00:45:31.410 --> 00:45:38.410 in 411 00:46:37.510 --> 00:46:40.170 a minute. 412 00:46:40.170 --> 00:46:47.170 AMY GOODMAN: Our guests are Horacio Verbitsky, an Argentine investigative journalist for 413 00:46:51.500 --> 00:46:58.500 the newspaper Página/12, or Page/12. He has reported extensively on the church’s involvement 414 00:46:59.430 --> 00:47:04.440 in Argentina with the military junta that once ruled Argentina, specifically on the 415 00:47:04.440 --> 00:47:11.190 role of Father Bergoglio, who is now Father—who is now Pope Francis. Among his books, The 416 00:47:11.190 --> 00:47:17.390 Silence: From Paul VI to Bergoglio: The Secret Relations Between the Church and the ESMA. 417 00:47:17.390 --> 00:47:21.130 ESMA refers to the former Navy school that was turned into a detention center where people 418 00:47:21.130 --> 00:47:27.550 were tortured. Verbitsky also heads the Center for Legal and Social Studies, an Argentine 419 00:47:27.550 --> 00:47:31.760 human rights organization. You can also go to our website at democracynow.org, where 420 00:47:31.760 --> 00:47:37.230 we broadcast from Buenos Airesseveral years ago, talking about these issues, including 421 00:47:37.230 --> 00:47:42.700 the children who were taken from dissidents who were then killed and handed to military 422 00:47:42.700 --> 00:47:44.910 families to be raised, which we’ll talk about. 423 00:47:44.910 --> 00:47:49.280 Ernesto Semán is with us, as well. Semán, the historian at New York University, former 424 00:47:49.280 --> 00:47:53.869 reporter for the Argentine newspapers Página/12 and Clarín, where he reported on politics 425 00:47:53.869 --> 00:47:57.200 and human rights, as well as Father Bergoglio. 426 00:47:57.200 --> 00:48:04.200 As we continue this conversation, Ernesto Semán, can you underscore what Horacio is 427 00:48:04.990 --> 00:48:11.910 saying, what you think we know at this point about Pope Francis, what we don’t? 428 00:48:11.910 --> 00:48:16.540 ERNESTO SEMÁN: Yeah, I think that what Horacio Verbitsky wrote during these several years 429 00:48:16.540 --> 00:48:21.880 is he’s tried to uncover what is this kind of social conservatism, that you were trying 430 00:48:21.880 --> 00:48:27.630 to describe at the beginning of the program. It’s not—in terms of the discourse, it’s 431 00:48:27.630 --> 00:48:32.700 not the kind of Catholic conservatism that you’re going to find in the United States, 432 00:48:32.700 --> 00:48:38.190 with this emphasis on the individual salvation, on government crushing individual liberty 433 00:48:38.190 --> 00:48:45.190 and economic activity, and because it’s much more socially loaded. But the paradox—and 434 00:48:45.210 --> 00:48:50.119 I think that that’s the most important point of Horacio Verbitsky’s work—is how this 435 00:48:50.119 --> 00:48:55.580 same discourse, with a lot of emphasis on social justice and on equality, at the same 436 00:48:55.580 --> 00:49:01.260 time has worked to undermine the work who had tried to solve those same problems. 437 00:49:01.260 --> 00:49:07.500 The case of this complicity of Bergoglio with human rights violations during the dictatorship 438 00:49:07.500 --> 00:49:14.369 is by far the most important episode. But during the last decade, he did, as the State 439 00:49:14.369 --> 00:49:21.369 Department implicitly suggests, the opposition to the government, in a decade in which Argentina 440 00:49:21.960 --> 00:49:28.440 lived the largest and fastest reduction of poverty and inequality, as in most of all 441 00:49:28.440 --> 00:49:33.160 Latin American countries. So that kind of paradox between the kind of social conservatism 442 00:49:33.160 --> 00:49:37.730 and an opposition to social agenda that has been pretty successful during the last years 443 00:49:37.730 --> 00:49:38.380 is very important. 444 00:49:38.380 --> 00:49:42.530 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to ask you about that, precisely, and the parallels, it seems 445 00:49:42.530 --> 00:49:49.410 to me, in terms of the cardinals selecting John Paul II, when he was elevated to pope, 446 00:49:49.410 --> 00:49:55.820 he coming out of Poland, where there was a Solidarity movement and in opposition to the 447 00:49:55.820 --> 00:50:00.190 previous government, that, in essence, his elevation helped to fortify that movement. 448 00:50:00.190 --> 00:50:04.190 I’m wondering whether there’s some parallel now with the changes in Latin America now 449 00:50:04.190 --> 00:50:11.190 to the elevation of a very conservative cardinal from that region, might help to bolster forces 450 00:50:13.119 --> 00:50:18.530 that are opposed to continuing this enormous change that’s occurring in Latin America. 451 00:50:18.530 --> 00:50:23.080 ERNESTO SEMÁN: You might say so. The problem that you have there is to what extent that’s 452 00:50:23.080 --> 00:50:28.660 going to make the gap between the church and the Catholic followers even deeper. In the 453 00:50:28.660 --> 00:50:32.940 case of Argentina and some of the social issues that happened over the last decade, you see 454 00:50:32.940 --> 00:50:38.430 that in a country that 75 percent of people consider themselves Catholic, has been a strong 455 00:50:38.430 --> 00:50:44.750 support to some of the social decisions made by the Kirchner administration that Bergoglio 456 00:50:44.750 --> 00:50:50.450 opposed. The last and most important one was the same marriage law—that is, matrimonio 457 00:50:50.450 --> 00:50:51.900 igualitario in Argentina, egalitarian marriage. 458 00:50:51.900 --> 00:50:53.710 AMY GOODMAN: Yeah, and let’s talk about this— 459 00:50:53.710 --> 00:50:53.960 ERNESTO SEMÁN: Sure. 460 00:50:53.940 --> 00:50:59.359 AMY GOODMAN: —because Bergoglio really took on the Argentine president in a major way. 461 00:50:59.359 --> 00:51:04.670 This was 2010. Then-Cardinal Jorge Bergoglio led the opposition against Argentina’s law 462 00:51:04.670 --> 00:51:09.670 that gives same-sex couples the right to marry and adopt children. Before the law passed, 463 00:51:09.670 --> 00:51:16.670 Bergoglio wrote a letter, and addressed the monasteries in Argentina, in which he asked 464 00:51:16.810 --> 00:51:23.460 monks to pray fervently about a, quote, "situation whose outcome can seriously harm the family. 465 00:51:23.460 --> 00:51:26.990 ... At stake are the lives of many children who will be discriminated against in advance, 466 00:51:26.990 --> 00:51:32.530 and deprived of their human development given by a father and a mother and willed by God. 467 00:51:32.530 --> 00:51:37.359 At stake is the total rejection of God’s law engraved in our hearts. ... Let us not 468 00:51:37.359 --> 00:51:43.730 be naive: this is not simply a political struggle, but it is an attempt to destroy God’s plan," 469 00:51:43.730 --> 00:51:43.990 he said— 470 00:51:43.990 --> 00:51:45.040 ERNESTO SEMÁN: Yeah, yeah. I think—yeah, I think [inaudible]— 471 00:51:45.040 --> 00:51:48.440 AMY GOODMAN: —about what President Cristina Kirchner was pushing for, which was— 472 00:51:48.440 --> 00:51:48.950 ERNESTO SEMÁN: Exactly. 473 00:51:48.950 --> 00:51:49.960 AMY GOODMAN: —legalization of gay marriage. 474 00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:52.270 ERNESTO SEMÁN: Cristina—Cristina Kirchner promoted this, but it was a movement by the 475 00:51:52.270 --> 00:51:57.040 LGTB movement that had been going on for many years. It’s an extensive social movement 476 00:51:57.040 --> 00:52:03.350 that the government took and put into law. And after that, Bergoglio called to a holy 477 00:52:03.350 --> 00:52:06.730 war, una guerra de Dios, against this evil’s move. 478 00:52:06.730 --> 00:52:09.150 AMY GOODMAN: Is he saying that President— 479 00:52:09.150 --> 00:52:11.400 ERNESTO SEMÁN: In the same level. 480 00:52:11.400 --> 00:52:13.060 AMY GOODMAN: —Kirchner represented that evil? 481 00:52:13.060 --> 00:52:16.250 ERNESTO SEMÁN: That the law was an evil’s move. So, some degree of ambiguity. But it 482 00:52:16.250 --> 00:52:23.140 was clearly that kind of conservative message in relation to a law that, A, was passed overwhelmingly 483 00:52:23.140 --> 00:52:28.180 after two months of very open and public debate, and, B, that polls suggested that between 484 00:52:28.180 --> 00:52:33.430 60 and 70 percent of people had no problem whatsoever with this kind of law. So that 485 00:52:33.430 --> 00:52:40.430 shows you—and he was personally involved and clearly involved in leading the opposition 486 00:52:40.840 --> 00:52:41.310 to this. 487 00:52:41.310 --> 00:52:48.070 It was the last point of several other issues, including abortion and contraception, in which 488 00:52:48.070 --> 00:52:53.440 Bergoglio took the side of an opposition to the administration. The most important, one 489 00:52:53.440 --> 00:53:00.440 of the most—one of the most famous ones was when the military chaplain in 2005 said 490 00:53:01.030 --> 00:53:04.380 that the minister of health, because of the contraception policy, had to be thrown into 491 00:53:04.380 --> 00:53:06.140 the sea. And the government— 492 00:53:06.140 --> 00:53:06.930 AMY GOODMAN: Bergoglio said the— 493 00:53:06.930 --> 00:53:08.500 ERNESTO SEMÁN: No, no, no, no, the military chaplain— 494 00:53:08.500 --> 00:53:09.710 AMY GOODMAN: Oh, the military chaplain. 495 00:53:09.710 --> 00:53:14.430 ERNESTO SEMÁN: —said that the government immediately asked for his remotion, and Bergoglio 496 00:53:14.430 --> 00:53:21.000 refused to do so and has just waited until the priest had to retire because of his age. 497 00:53:21.000 --> 00:53:27.670 But this shows you the kind of—how this emphasis on social justice and equality goes 498 00:53:27.670 --> 00:53:34.670 along with the very, very conservative stance in cultural and social issues that makes the 499 00:53:34.780 --> 00:53:38.000 work of the church and the relation with the followers much more, much more difficult. 500 00:53:38.000 --> 00:53:40.030 And it’s a challenge for them in Latin America. 501 00:53:40.030 --> 00:53:45.300 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Horacio Verbitsky, I’d like to ask you—you’ve interviewed the former 502 00:53:45.300 --> 00:53:51.480 Cardinal Bergoglio many times. You have a sense of him, not only his political role, 503 00:53:51.480 --> 00:53:58.109 but his personality. Do you have any expectations that, now that he’s been elevated to pope, 504 00:53:58.109 --> 00:54:04.700 that he may have some change in his perspectives on some of these issues? Or do you expect 505 00:54:04.700 --> 00:54:11.700 him to maintain the same populist conservatism that you say have marked his rise through 506 00:54:14.210 --> 00:54:15.150 the church hierarchy? 507 00:54:15.150 --> 00:54:22.150 HORACIO VERBITSKY: I do believe that he is a man—he is the man he is, and he will not 508 00:54:23.140 --> 00:54:30.140 change. His first days as a pope show perfectly this attitude of humility. He refused the 509 00:54:35.970 --> 00:54:42.970 limousine and took the bus. He asked the people to pray for him, instead of praying him for 510 00:54:47.480 --> 00:54:54.480 them. These kind of gestures would be common in his tenure as a pope. And it’s possible 511 00:54:58.590 --> 00:55:05.590 that he would be revered by the masses because of this different attitude that seems more 512 00:55:12.430 --> 00:55:19.430 democratic and less monarchical than that of the former Benedicto XVI. 513 00:55:23.510 --> 00:55:30.510 But in doctrinary questions, he would be tied to conservative, and this is the thing that 514 00:55:34.250 --> 00:55:41.250 I wait. And I believe that he can play, concerning Latin America and the populist governments 515 00:55:43.210 --> 00:55:50.210 of the region, the same role that Pope John Paul played against East Europe during the 516 00:55:53.670 --> 00:55:55.859 first years of his tenure. 517 00:55:55.859 --> 00:56:02.859 AMY GOODMAN: Horacio Verbitsky, do you think that Cardinal Bergoglio would have become 518 00:56:04.470 --> 00:56:11.200 Pope Francis if he hadn’t played the role he did during the dirty wars, if he had sided 519 00:56:11.200 --> 00:56:18.200 with these two Jesuit priests, who were speaking up for the poor at the time and who were great 520 00:56:18.240 --> 00:56:20.420 proponents of liberation theology? 521 00:56:20.420 --> 00:56:27.420 HORACIO VERBITSKY: He was against liberation theology. He was a man, during his tenure 522 00:56:30.190 --> 00:56:37.190 in the Jesuit company—the publication of the Jesuit company are full of articles, of pieces, 523 00:56:42.560 --> 00:56:49.560 against liberation theology. Being among the poor doesn’t mean to be for the poor. I 524 00:56:52.119 --> 00:56:59.119 remember a very funny thing that happened during the trial to the first military junta 525 00:56:59.869 --> 00:57:06.869 in 1985. The French government sent in 1979 an emissar to investigate the disappearance 526 00:57:08.320 --> 00:57:15.320 of French citizens in Argentina. This man, François Cherome, talked with Almirante Chamorro 527 00:57:15.470 --> 00:57:22.470 that was the chief of the main concentration camp of the navy, ESMA. And this Admiral Chamorro 528 00:57:28.280 --> 00:57:35.280 told François Cherome, who told the story to the justices in 1985, that also the church 529 00:57:39.599 --> 00:57:46.599 was infiltrated by communism. And as a demonstration, he cited that the new pope was Polish. Well, 530 00:57:51.230 --> 00:57:58.230 in the same meaning, Bergoglio is a Third World pope. He comes from the Third World, 531 00:58:00.730 --> 00:58:07.730 but he is not a partisan of the liberation theology, in the same sense in which John 532 00:58:10.869 --> 00:58:15.960 Paul came from Poland but wasn’t communist. 533 00:58:15.960 --> 00:58:20.970 AMY GOODMAN: We are going to have to leave it there. We want to thank Horacio Verbitsky 534 00:58:20.970 --> 00:58:25.720 for spending this hour with us, Argentine investigative journalist for Página/12, or 535 00:58:25.720 --> 00:58:30.430 Page/12, the newspaper in Argentina, has reported extensively on the church’s complicity with 536 00:58:30.430 --> 00:58:34.940 the military junta during the dirty wars in Argentina. And Ernesto Semán, historian at 537 00:58:34.940 --> 00:58:40.580 New York University, former reporter for the Argentine newspaper Clarín, as well as Página/12, 538 00:58:40.580 --> 00:58:47.580 where he reported on politics, human rights, as well as Bergoglio.