WEBVTT 1 00:00:10.110 --> 00:00:17.110 From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now! 2 00:00:18.259 --> 00:00:25.259 When it comes to telephone calls, nobody is listening to your telephone calls. That’s 3 00:00:27.290 --> 00:00:30.200 not what this program’s about. 4 00:00:30.200 --> 00:00:36.059 As the ACLU sues the Obama administration over its secret NSA phone spying program, 5 00:00:36.059 --> 00:00:40.800 we’ll look at how the government could use phone records to determine your friends, medical 6 00:00:40.800 --> 00:00:46.670 problems, business transactions and places you’ve been. Our next guest, Susan Landau, 7 00:00:46.670 --> 00:00:52.360 a mathematician, argues this metadata can be more dangerous than transcripts of actual 8 00:00:52.360 --> 00:00:52.940 conversations. 9 00:00:52.940 --> 00:00:59.579 Then, a debate on the man behind the leaked NSA documents. Is Edward Snowden a hero or 10 00:00:59.579 --> 00:01:00.210 a traitor? 11 00:01:00.210 --> 00:01:05.250 It’s getting to the point you don’t have to have done anything wrong. You simply have 12 00:01:05.250 --> 00:01:10.380 to eventually fall under suspicion from somebody, even by a wrong call, and then they can use 13 00:01:10.380 --> 00:01:16.250 the system to go back in time and scrutinize every decision you’ve ever made, every friend 14 00:01:16.250 --> 00:01:22.370 you’ve ever discussed something with, and attack you on that basis to sort of derive 15 00:01:22.370 --> 00:01:28.040 suspicion from an innocent life and paint anyone in the context of a wrongdoer. 16 00:01:28.040 --> 00:01:34.180 We’ll speak with journalist Chris Hedges and Geoffrey Stone, the former dean of the 17 00:01:34.180 --> 00:01:39.890 University of Chicago Law School who hired Barack Obama to teach constitutional law in 18 00:01:39.890 --> 00:01:40.799 1992. 19 00:01:40.799 --> 00:01:47.600 Then, 50 years ago today, civil rights leader Medgar Evers was gunned down in his driveway. 20 00:01:47.600 --> 00:01:50.710 We’ll speak with his widow, Myrlie Evers. 21 00:01:50.710 --> 00:01:57.710 He was a man of all time, one who was totally dedicated to freedom for everyone and was 22 00:01:58.049 --> 00:02:03.450 willing to pay a price. And he knew what that price was going to be. 23 00:02:03.450 --> 00:02:10.450 All that and more, coming up. 24 00:02:10.979 --> 00:02:16.430 Welcome to Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 25 00:02:16.430 --> 00:02:21.230 The Obama administration has launched an internal review of the recent leak that has exposed 26 00:02:21.230 --> 00:02:26.310 a series of government surveillance programs. The White House says its probe will focus 27 00:02:26.310 --> 00:02:32.220 on potential damages to national security. The move was announced amidst new formal challenges 28 00:02:32.220 --> 00:02:37.430 to government spying and secrecy. A bipartisan group of senators has unveiled a measure that 29 00:02:37.430 --> 00:02:42.530 would declassify major decisions by courts operating under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance 30 00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:49.530 Act. The bill’s co-sponsor, Democratic Senator Jeff Merkley of Oregon, said: "Americans deserve 31 00:02:49.840 --> 00:02:54.379 to know how much information about their private communications the government believes it’s 32 00:02:54.379 --> 00:02:59.300 allowed to take under the law." Meanwhile, the American Civil Liberties Union has filed 33 00:02:59.300 --> 00:03:04.980 a lawsuit challenging the secret program collecting the phone records of millions of Americans. 34 00:03:04.980 --> 00:03:10.599 ACLU staff attorney Alex Abdo said the suit is being brought to stop dragnet surveillance 35 00:03:10.599 --> 00:03:11.840 on a massive scale. 36 00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:17.819 Alex Abdo: "The very real aspiration of the NSA that we’ve now learned is to essentially 37 00:03:17.819 --> 00:03:24.819 record the Internet, to keep track of every time anyone says anything to anyone online, 38 00:03:25.239 --> 00:03:29.060 on the phone, through any kind of communication, and store it indefinitely in a government 39 00:03:29.060 --> 00:03:34.840 database in case at some point in the future it’s important. That’s not the role for 40 00:03:34.840 --> 00:03:39.489 government that our Constitution sets out. They have every tool they need to fight terrorism. 41 00:03:39.489 --> 00:03:41.159 They don’t need this one." 42 00:03:41.159 --> 00:03:47.170 Key tech giants implicated in the recent NSA surveillance revelations have asked the U.S. 43 00:03:47.170 --> 00:03:52.760 government for permission to prove they haven’t enabled wholesale spying. On Tuesday, Google, 44 00:03:52.760 --> 00:03:58.750 Facebook and Microsoft said they want to release info on how they respond to classified surveillance 45 00:03:58.750 --> 00:04:04.000 requests in response to the fallout over the surveillance program PRISM. According to leaked 46 00:04:04.000 --> 00:04:09.940 documents, the National Security Agency uses PRISM to gather data on foreign Internet users 47 00:04:09.940 --> 00:04:15.269 directly from the servers of nine major firms. It’s unlikely the government will grant 48 00:04:15.269 --> 00:04:21.190 the request. A former Justice Department prosecutor, Larry Klayman, says he plans to file a class 49 00:04:21.190 --> 00:04:27.659 action lawsuit today against all nine companies named in the leaked documents as PRISM participants. 50 00:04:27.659 --> 00:04:32.129 The NSA whistleblower, Edward Snowden, remains out of public view after leaving his Hong 51 00:04:32.129 --> 00:04:38.139 Kong hotel on Monday. A report in a Hong Kong-based newspaper says he is trying to contact Hong 52 00:04:38.139 --> 00:04:42.819 Kong-based experts and lawyers for assistance as he faces the prospect of potential extradition 53 00:04:42.819 --> 00:04:48.550 efforts by the U.S. government. On Tuesday, the private military firm where Snowden worked, 54 00:04:48.550 --> 00:04:53.360 Booz Allen Hamilton, confirmed Snowden has been fired. 55 00:04:53.360 --> 00:05:00.360 The Senate has overwhelmingly voted to take up the bipartisan immigration reform bill 56 00:05:01.360 --> 00:05:05.330 that would establish a path to citizenship for millions of undocumented immigrants while 57 00:05:05.330 --> 00:05:11.020 radically expanding border enforcement. The 84-to-15 vote will kick off what’s expected 58 00:05:11.020 --> 00:05:15.379 to be a month-long debate on the bill’s passage. At the White House, President Obama 59 00:05:15.379 --> 00:05:18.770 urged lawmakers to send him legislation by summer’s end. 60 00:05:18.770 --> 00:05:24.469 President Obama: "The system’s still broken. And to truly deal with this issue, Congress 61 00:05:24.469 --> 00:05:31.469 needs to act. ... They’ve got the support of a broad cross-section of leaders from every 62 00:05:31.869 --> 00:05:38.869 walk of life. So there’s no reason Congress can’t get this done by the end of the summer." 63 00:05:39.819 --> 00:05:43.669 Republican leaders followed the vote with a reminder their support for beginning debate 64 00:05:43.669 --> 00:05:48.889 doesn’t mean final endorsement of the bill’s passage. Republican co-sponsor Marco Rubio 65 00:05:48.889 --> 00:05:53.159 of Florida is now saying he won’t support the bill unless the already-strict border 66 00:05:53.159 --> 00:05:59.189 security provisions are expanded. Tuesday’s vote saw a historic moment from Democratic 67 00:05:59.189 --> 00:06:04.139 Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. Kaine spoke in favor of the immigration bill with a 15-minute 68 00:06:04.139 --> 00:06:09.569 speech entirely in Spanish, the first ever on the Senate floor. 69 00:06:09.569 --> 00:06:15.509 Turkish riot police have forcibly removed throngs of protesters from Istanbul’s Taksim 70 00:06:15.509 --> 00:06:20.979 Square after nearly two weeks of demonstrations. Beginning Tuesday and lasting overnight, officers 71 00:06:20.979 --> 00:06:27.899 fired tear gas and water cannons into a crowd of thousands of people, forcing them to disperse. 72 00:06:27.899 --> 00:06:33.740 Thousands of demonstrators also faced tear gas and water cannons in the capital Ankara. 73 00:06:33.740 --> 00:06:38.689 It was the most violent police crackdown since the initial protest against the razing of 74 00:06:38.689 --> 00:06:43.499 an Istanbul public park. The movement has since grown into a call for Turkish Prime 75 00:06:43.499 --> 00:06:48.719 Minister Tayyip Erdogan’s resignation over what opponents call authoritarian and anti-secular 76 00:06:48.719 --> 00:06:53.800 tendencies. Turkish medics say around 5,000 people have been treated for injuries since 77 00:06:53.800 --> 00:06:59.379 the unrest began. In a statement, Amnesty International criticized the Turkish government, 78 00:06:59.379 --> 00:07:04.300 saying: "Instead of continuing to repress peaceful activists, Turkish authorities should 79 00:07:04.300 --> 00:07:08.449 look at the actions of their own police and bring to justice those responsible for the 80 00:07:08.449 --> 00:07:14.289 shocking abuse we have seen." Erdogan had previously agreed to meet with protest leaders 81 00:07:14.289 --> 00:07:21.229 in a meeting set for today. Riot police continue to surround Taksim Square in a bid to prevent 82 00:07:21.229 --> 00:07:23.719 the demonstrators’ return. 83 00:07:23.719 --> 00:07:28.189 At least 60 people have been killed in a rebel attack on a village in eastern Syria. The 84 00:07:28.189 --> 00:07:33.719 victims were reportedly Shiite Muslims fighting on the side of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad. 85 00:07:33.719 --> 00:07:38.159 The Syrian government is claiming the victims were mostly civilians. 86 00:07:38.159 --> 00:07:43.339 The Obama administration is scaling back plans for trying Guantánamo Bay prisoners in military 87 00:07:43.339 --> 00:07:49.729 tribunals. Guantánamo’s top military prosecutor says up to 20 prisoners will now face trials, 88 00:07:49.729 --> 00:07:56.179 down from a previous estimate of 36. The move came in response to a recent appeals court 89 00:07:56.179 --> 00:08:02.649 decision that rejected the prosecution of "material support" allegations retroactively. 90 00:08:02.649 --> 00:08:07.709 The number of 20 prosecutions means just 3 percent of all Guantánamo Bay prisoners to 91 00:08:07.709 --> 00:08:14.259 date will ever stand trial. In a statement, the legal charity Reprieve said: "This shockingly 92 00:08:14.259 --> 00:08:19.080 low figure demonstrates what a terrible mistake Guantanamo has been, and just how many lives 93 00:08:19.080 --> 00:08:23.389 have been ruined for no good reason. ... It is high time President Obama got his act together 94 00:08:23.389 --> 00:08:29.339 and deliver on his promise to close this prison." More than half of Guantánamo Bay’s remaining 95 00:08:29.339 --> 00:08:34.430 prisoners have been cleared for release, and over 100 are on a hunger strike. 96 00:08:34.430 --> 00:08:38.909 At least 17 people have been killed in Afghanistan in a suicide attack outside the country’s 97 00:08:38.909 --> 00:08:45.839 top court. The bomber hit a bus full of Afghan Supreme Court employees. Dozens were wounded. 98 00:08:45.839 --> 00:08:52.379 The attack comes as the U.N. has disclosed Afghan civilian deaths are again on the rise. 99 00:08:52.379 --> 00:08:56.879 Last year marked the first time in six years that killings of Afghan civilians declined. 100 00:08:56.879 --> 00:09:03.699 But on Tuesday, U.N. envoy Jan Kubis said the civilian toll has jumped 24 percent, with 101 00:09:03.699 --> 00:09:07.740 over 3,000 killed in the first half of 2013. 102 00:09:07.740 --> 00:09:14.740 Jan Kubis: "I have to note with regret that, unfortunately, due to the increase of different 103 00:09:15.209 --> 00:09:22.209 operations, perhaps prompted also by the activities of the insurgency, as declared in their campaign, 104 00:09:27.980 --> 00:09:34.980 the situation of civilians in the country and conflict-related civilian casualties are 105 00:09:37.639 --> 00:09:41.370 indeed not going in the right direction. On the contrary, the situation has worsened." 106 00:09:41.370 --> 00:09:47.199 According to the U.N., militants were responsible for 74 percent of the fatal attacks. The Taliban 107 00:09:47.199 --> 00:09:51.949 has reportedly agreed to hold talks with the U.N. on the issue of civilian deaths. 108 00:09:51.949 --> 00:09:57.610 Around 300 workers on strike for better pay at a Nike factory in Cambodia have lost their 109 00:09:57.610 --> 00:10:03.029 jobs. A union spokesperson said the fired workers’ dismissal letters cited their involvement 110 00:10:03.029 --> 00:10:09.459 in the strike, which seeks a wage hike of $14 a month. Although the vast majority of 111 00:10:09.459 --> 00:10:14.290 the factory’s 5,000 workers have taken part in the strike, many have begun returning to 112 00:10:14.290 --> 00:10:20.180 work after over three weeks off the job. It’s the 48th strike by Cambodian garment workers 113 00:10:20.180 --> 00:10:25.540 this year, more than in the entire years of 2010 or 2011. 114 00:10:25.540 --> 00:10:30.209 The trial of Army whistleblower Bradley Manning continues at Fort Meade, Maryland. On Tuesday, 115 00:10:30.209 --> 00:10:34.930 Manning’s aunt testified he told her of his initial hope that the video he released 116 00:10:34.930 --> 00:10:41.430 of a U.S. helicopter shooting dead Iraqi civilians would become "big news" in the United States. 117 00:10:41.430 --> 00:10:47.259 Prosecutors also elicited more testimony about WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange. A Marine 118 00:10:47.259 --> 00:10:52.680 Corps security expert testified he attended a 2009 conference where he said Assange tried 119 00:10:52.680 --> 00:10:58.139 to encourage the release of secret military and corporate information. 120 00:10:58.139 --> 00:11:02.529 Planned Parenthood and the American Civil Liberties Union have filed a lawsuit challenging 121 00:11:02.529 --> 00:11:08.259 an Alabama law they say could shut down most of the state’s abortion clinics. The measure 122 00:11:08.259 --> 00:11:13.790 would force doctors at the five clinics to obtain admitting privileges at a local hospital, 123 00:11:13.790 --> 00:11:19.240 a step the lawsuit notes can be impossible in part because some hospitals oppose abortion. 124 00:11:19.240 --> 00:11:22.389 The law is set to take effect next month. 125 00:11:22.389 --> 00:11:26.470 And those are some of the headlines this is Democracy Now, Democracynow.org, the War and 126 00:11:26.470 --> 00:11:32.750 Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 127 00:11:32.750 --> 00:11:39.600 NERMEEN SHAIKH: The American Civil Liberties Union sued the Obama administration on Tuesday 128 00:11:39.600 --> 00:11:44.430 over the National Security Agency’s secret program to vacuum up the phone records of 129 00:11:44.430 --> 00:11:49.870 millions of Americans. The lawsuit comes less than one week after The Guardian and The Washington 130 00:11:49.870 --> 00:11:55.509 Post revealed the existence of a secret court ruling ordering Verizon to hand over records 131 00:11:55.509 --> 00:11:59.399 of its business customers. This is ACLU attorney Alex Abdo. 132 00:11:59.399 --> 00:12:06.220 ALEX ABDO: This program is a massive and unprecedented grab of information by the intelligence agencies. 133 00:12:06.220 --> 00:12:10.850 They’re sweeping up or they’re tracking literally every call made in this country. 134 00:12:10.850 --> 00:12:15.300 And the Constitution simply doesn’t allow the government to do that. If it has a reason 135 00:12:15.300 --> 00:12:19.889 to suspect a particular American of wrongdoing, then the government should target that American 136 00:12:19.889 --> 00:12:24.610 for investigation or surveillance, but they shouldn’t indiscriminately sweep up the 137 00:12:24.610 --> 00:12:26.370 calls of millions of innocent Americans. 138 00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:30.759 AMY GOODMAN: The disclosure of the secret NSA surveillance program was based on information 139 00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:37.490 leaked by Edward Snowden, a former CIA employee who most recently worked inside the NSA’s 140 00:12:37.490 --> 00:12:43.810 Hawaii office for the private firm Booz Allen Hamilton. On Friday, President Obama confirmed 141 00:12:43.810 --> 00:12:45.689 the existence of the surveillance program. 142 00:12:45.689 --> 00:12:51.850 PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: When it comes to telephone calls, nobody is listening to your telephone 143 00:12:51.850 --> 00:12:58.850 calls. That’s not what this program’s about. As was indicated, what the intelligence 144 00:13:03.920 --> 00:13:10.920 community is doing is looking at phone numbers and durations of calls. They are not looking 145 00:13:12.680 --> 00:13:19.680 at people’s names, and they’re not looking at content. But by sifting through this so-called 146 00:13:22.529 --> 00:13:29.529 metadata, they may identify potential leads with respect to folks who might engage in 147 00:13:30.449 --> 00:13:37.449 terrorism. If these folks—if the intelligence community then actually wants to listen to 148 00:13:38.480 --> 00:13:43.759 a phone call, they’ve got to go back to a federal judge, just like they would in a 149 00:13:43.759 --> 00:13:50.759 criminal investigation. So, I want to be very clear—some of the hype that we’ve been 150 00:13:52.029 --> 00:13:57.949 hearing over the last day or so—nobody is listening to the content of people’s phone 151 00:13:57.949 --> 00:13:58.319 calls. 152 00:13:58.319 --> 00:14:03.569 AMY GOODMAN: While President Obama insisted nobody is listening to your telephone calls, 153 00:14:03.569 --> 00:14:08.649 many cybersecurity experts say the metadata being collected by the government may be far 154 00:14:08.649 --> 00:14:12.309 more revealing than the actual content of the phone calls. 155 00:14:12.309 --> 00:14:17.980 Joining us now from Washington, D.C., is Susan Landau, mathematician and former Sun Microsystems 156 00:14:17.980 --> 00:14:23.559 engineer, author of the book Surveillance or Security?: The Risks Posed by New Wiretapping 157 00:14:23.559 --> 00:14:26.790 Technologies. She received a Guggenheim Fellowship in 2012. 158 00:14:26.790 --> 00:14:33.379 Susan Landau, welcome to Democracy Now! This may surprise many people, this point that 159 00:14:33.379 --> 00:14:38.629 metadata—just, you know, the fact of a phone call, who you called, perhaps where you made 160 00:14:38.629 --> 00:14:43.660 the call—can be more revealing than a transcript of the conversation itself. 161 00:14:43.660 --> 00:14:49.399 SUSAN LANDAU: That’s right. That’s because a phone call—the metadata of a phone call 162 00:14:49.399 --> 00:14:56.399 tells what you do as opposed to what you say. So, for example, if you call from the hospital 163 00:14:56.999 --> 00:15:01.959 when you’re getting a mammogram, and then later in the day your doctor calls you, and 164 00:15:01.959 --> 00:15:06.689 then you call the surgeon, and then when you’re at the surgeon’s office you call your family, 165 00:15:06.689 --> 00:15:10.089 it’s pretty clear, just looking at that pattern of calls, that there’s been some 166 00:15:10.089 --> 00:15:16.829 bad news. If there’s a tight vote in Congress, and somebody who’s wavering on the edge, 167 00:15:16.829 --> 00:15:20.170 you discover that they’re talking to the opposition, you know which way they’re vote 168 00:15:20.170 --> 00:15:22.259 is going. 169 00:15:22.259 --> 00:15:26.930 One of my favorite examples is, when Sun Microsystems was bought by Oracle, there were a number 170 00:15:26.930 --> 00:15:31.459 of calls that weekend before. One can imagine just the trail of calls. First the CEO of 171 00:15:31.459 --> 00:15:36.519 Sun and the CEO of Oracle talk to each other. Then probably they both talk to their chief 172 00:15:36.519 --> 00:15:40.910 counsels. Then maybe they talk to each other again, then to other people in charge. And 173 00:15:40.910 --> 00:15:45.220 the calls go back and forth very quickly, very tightly. You know what’s going to happen. 174 00:15:45.220 --> 00:15:48.439 You know what the announcement is going to be on Monday morning, even though you haven’t 175 00:15:48.439 --> 00:15:52.579 heard the content of the calls. So that metadata is remarkably revealing. 176 00:15:52.579 --> 00:15:57.029 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, John Negroponte, the nation’s first director of national intelligence 177 00:15:57.029 --> 00:16:01.819 under President George W. Bush, has defended the surveillance program and the collection 178 00:16:01.819 --> 00:16:07.459 of metadata. He described metadata as, quote, "like knowing what’s on the outside of an 179 00:16:07.459 --> 00:16:11.119 envelope." Susan Landau, your response to that? 180 00:16:11.119 --> 00:16:15.740 SUSAN LANDAU: That’s not really true. That was the case when we had black telephones 181 00:16:15.740 --> 00:16:20.399 that weighed several pounds and sat on the living room table or the hall table, and you 182 00:16:20.399 --> 00:16:23.899 knew that there was a phone call from one house to another house. Now everybody carries 183 00:16:23.899 --> 00:16:29.910 cellphones with them. And so, the data is, when I call you, I know that I’m talking 184 00:16:29.910 --> 00:16:34.180 to you, but I have no idea where you are. It’s the phone company who has that data 185 00:16:34.180 --> 00:16:40.009 now. And that data is far more revealing than what’s on the outside of an envelope. As 186 00:16:40.009 --> 00:16:44.399 I said earlier, it’s what you do, not what you say. And because we’re carrying the 187 00:16:44.399 --> 00:16:48.579 cellphones with us and making calls all during the day, that it’s very, very revelatory. 188 00:16:48.579 --> 00:16:52.759 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Could you explain, Susan, the significance of location data? Can the 189 00:16:52.759 --> 00:16:56.199 government map a person’s whereabouts through this metadata? 190 00:16:56.199 --> 00:17:02.519 SUSAN LANDAU: Of course. In fact, all it takes is four data points to be 95 percent sure 191 00:17:02.519 --> 00:17:07.480 who the person is. I noticed President Obama said no names, but in fact, if you know four 192 00:17:07.480 --> 00:17:14.110 locations, because home and work are often unique pairs for most people, 95 percent location 193 00:17:14.110 --> 00:17:18.329 of—of times when you have four location points, you know who it is you’re listening 194 00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:23.459 to. So, you follow somebody, and they make calls from work every day, and then one day 195 00:17:23.459 --> 00:17:27.339 you notice they’ve made some calls from a bar at the end of the day. And then you 196 00:17:27.339 --> 00:17:31.649 discover somebody in middle age, somebody who ought to be working, is now making calls 197 00:17:31.649 --> 00:17:35.390 only from home. You know they’ve been fired, even though you haven’t listened to any 198 00:17:35.390 --> 00:17:36.690 of the content of the calls. 199 00:17:36.690 --> 00:17:42.630 AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you about the comments of the director of national intelligence, 200 00:17:42.630 --> 00:17:47.409 James Clapper, coming under increasing scrutiny over comments he made to the Senate over the 201 00:17:47.409 --> 00:17:53.010 government’s surveillance program. In March, Democratic Senator Ron Wyden questioned Clapper 202 00:17:53.010 --> 00:17:54.270 about the NSA. 203 00:17:54.270 --> 00:18:01.270 SEN. RON WYDEN: Does the NSA collect any type of data at all on millions or hundreds of 204 00:18:01.580 --> 00:18:04.870 millions of Americans? JAMES CLAPPER: No, sir. 205 00:18:04.870 --> 00:18:11.580 SEN. RON WYDEN: It does not? JAMES CLAPPER: Not wittingly. There are cases 206 00:18:11.580 --> 00:18:17.390 where they could inadvertently, perhaps, collect, but not wittingly. 207 00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:22.830 AMY GOODMAN: Director of National Intelligence James Clapper is holding his head as he’s 208 00:18:22.830 --> 00:18:27.419 responding to questions from Senator Ron Wyden in March. Well, during an interview this week 209 00:18:27.419 --> 00:18:32.860 with NBC’s Andrea Mitchell, James Clapper defended his response, saying he had answered 210 00:18:32.860 --> 00:18:39.840 the question in the, quote, "least untruthful manner," unquote. Meanwhile, on Tuesday, Senator 211 00:18:39.840 --> 00:18:44.700 Wyden called for public hearings to investigate the scope of the NSA’s surveillance of Americans. 212 00:18:44.700 --> 00:18:49.740 Wyden said, quote, "One of the most important responsibilities a Senator has is oversight 213 00:18:49.740 --> 00:18:54.490 of the intelligence community. [This] job cannot be done responsibly if Senators [aren’t] 214 00:18:54.490 --> 00:19:01.260 getting straight answers to direct questions." Susan Landau, translate what James Clapper 215 00:19:01.260 --> 00:19:01.710 said. 216 00:19:01.710 --> 00:19:06.270 SUSAN LANDAU: Well, he said that we’re not getting—that the NSA was not getting data 217 00:19:06.270 --> 00:19:11.340 on millions of Americans. But given that Verizon and the other telecos presumably were also 218 00:19:11.340 --> 00:19:16.929 sending this information, and they were sending it daily, that does not appear to be true. 219 00:19:16.929 --> 00:19:21.080 Now, what we don’t know, we don’t know a lot of things. One of the things we don’t 220 00:19:21.080 --> 00:19:26.870 know is the kind minimization that the NSA did on the data. When you do a criminal wiretap, 221 00:19:26.870 --> 00:19:32.390 you’re required to do what’s called minimization. You can listen to the call, but if it’s 222 00:19:32.390 --> 00:19:37.740 not the target of the investigation, if it’s not the criminal him or herself, but let’s 223 00:19:37.740 --> 00:19:41.610 say their teenage daughter, then you have to shut down the wiretap, and you can pick 224 00:19:41.610 --> 00:19:45.240 it up again in a couple of minutes. If it’s the criminal, but they’re talking about 225 00:19:45.240 --> 00:19:49.669 going out to buy milk, let’s say, unless you think that’s code for going out to pick 226 00:19:49.669 --> 00:19:52.820 up some heroin, you have to shut it down. That’s minimization. 227 00:19:52.820 --> 00:19:57.390 We don’t know several things. First of all, of course, there was a secret interpretation 228 00:19:57.390 --> 00:20:02.130 of a law, and that has no place in a democracy. That’s tantamount to secret laws. But we 229 00:20:02.130 --> 00:20:06.640 also don’t know what kind of data minimization the NSA was doing, and that’s something 230 00:20:06.640 --> 00:20:10.690 that ought to come out in public hearings. That’s very different from exposing sources 231 00:20:10.690 --> 00:20:11.250 and methods. 232 00:20:11.250 --> 00:20:15.610 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, the secret court order to obtain Verizon phone records was sought 233 00:20:15.610 --> 00:20:20.470 by the FBI under a section of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act that was expanded 234 00:20:20.470 --> 00:20:26.140 by the PATRIOT Act. In 2011, Democratic Senator Ron Wyden warned about how the government 235 00:20:26.140 --> 00:20:31.100 was interpreting its surveillance powers under Section 215 of the PATRIOT Act. 236 00:20:31.100 --> 00:20:37.340 SEN. RON WYDEN: When the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted 237 00:20:37.340 --> 00:20:43.120 the PATRIOT Act, they are going to be stunned, and they are going to be angry. And they’re 238 00:20:43.120 --> 00:20:49.799 going to ask senators, "Did you know what this law actually permits? Why didn’t you 239 00:20:49.799 --> 00:20:55.679 know before you voted on it?" The fact is, anyone can read the plain text of the PATRIOT 240 00:20:55.679 --> 00:21:02.269 Act, and yet many members of Congress have no idea how the law is being secretly interpreted 241 00:21:02.269 --> 00:21:09.169 by the executive branch, because that interpretation is classified. It’s almost as if there were 242 00:21:09.169 --> 00:21:16.169 two PATRIOT Acts, and many members of Congress have not read the one that matters. Our constituents, 243 00:21:17.080 --> 00:21:23.539 of course, are totally in the dark. Members of the public have no access to the secret 244 00:21:23.539 --> 00:21:30.210 legal interpretations, so they have no idea what their government believes the law actually 245 00:21:30.210 --> 00:21:30.610 means. 246 00:21:30.610 --> 00:21:34.860 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Susan Landau, that was Democratic Senator Ron Wyden. Could you comment on what 247 00:21:34.860 --> 00:21:36.620 he said? He was speaking in 2011. 248 00:21:36.620 --> 00:21:41.880 SUSAN LANDAU: Yes. No, I actually had members of the press call me after his speech and 249 00:21:41.880 --> 00:21:46.779 say, "What is he talking about in Section 215?" And I literally had no idea, because 250 00:21:46.779 --> 00:21:51.470 it did not occur to me, and maybe that’s my naïveté. It did not occur to me that 251 00:21:51.470 --> 00:21:56.029 the government would be collecting the metadata under a secret interpretation. 252 00:21:56.029 --> 00:22:00.309 So what Senator Wyden is talking about is that collection of metadata, and what he’s 253 00:22:00.309 --> 00:22:06.830 alluding to is how extremely powerful it is. Currently, our laws, our wiretapping laws, 254 00:22:06.830 --> 00:22:11.850 which were passed when phones didn’t move, back in the 1960s and '70s, those wiretap 255 00:22:11.850 --> 00:22:17.320 laws protect content, very strongly. You need a wiretap warrant to get at content. But they 256 00:22:17.320 --> 00:22:23.260 protect the metadata—the who, the when, the what time, how long a call was for, the 257 00:22:23.260 --> 00:22:28.220 location—much less strongly. That needs to be changed. And, in fact, a bill was reported 258 00:22:28.220 --> 00:22:32.149 out of the Senate Judiciary Committee, the Electronic Communications Privacy Act—an 259 00:22:32.149 --> 00:22:36.539 updated version of the bill was reported out earlier this year. That's what Senator Wyden 260 00:22:36.539 --> 00:22:41.519 is alluding to. The fact that that metadata, now that we carry cellphones, now that payphones 261 00:22:41.519 --> 00:22:45.519 essentially don’t exist—there are far fewer payphones than a decade ago, and so 262 00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:51.549 one has to rely on cellphones—Senator Wyden is saying that information is very private 263 00:22:51.549 --> 00:22:55.960 information. It reveals a remarkable amount about what a person is doing, who they are, 264 00:22:55.960 --> 00:23:01.919 whom they associate with, who they spend their nights with, where they are when they travel. 265 00:23:01.919 --> 00:23:07.240 All that kind of information is very private, deserves constitutional protection. And yet, 266 00:23:07.240 --> 00:23:11.820 under a secret interpretation of the law, it’s in fact being handed over to the government. 267 00:23:11.820 --> 00:23:13.679 And that’s what Senator Wyden is saying. 268 00:23:13.679 --> 00:23:17.789 AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Susan Landau, people like Senator Feinstein are calling for an 269 00:23:17.789 --> 00:23:23.279 investigation into what Edward Snowden has done. We’re about to have a debate on whether 270 00:23:23.279 --> 00:23:27.779 he is a traitor or a hero. What do you think of what Snowden has done? And what do you 271 00:23:27.779 --> 00:23:32.010 think needs to be done? Where should the investigation take place? 272 00:23:32.010 --> 00:23:39.010 SUSAN LANDAU: So, the first thing is whether—what do I think of what Edward Snowden has done. 273 00:23:39.700 --> 00:23:44.370 I think of myself as a computer scientist, not a policy or legal expert. I don’t know 274 00:23:44.370 --> 00:23:48.490 what I would have done in his shoes, but I do know that what he’s done is opened up 275 00:23:48.490 --> 00:23:52.610 a public debate about something that should have been public many, many years ago. We 276 00:23:52.610 --> 00:23:55.820 can’t have secret interpretations of law in a democracy. 277 00:23:55.820 --> 00:24:00.159 Where do I think things should go? I think there need to be two investigations. One, 278 00:24:00.159 --> 00:24:03.750 I think Senator Feinstein is absolutely right, although I would target things a little bit 279 00:24:03.750 --> 00:24:10.029 differently. We’ve developed a surveillance-industrial complex, as has been exhibited to the public 280 00:24:10.029 --> 00:24:14.669 now, and I think that’s where Senator Feinstein should concentrate. I think it’s time for 281 00:24:14.669 --> 00:24:19.649 a Church-type Committee investigation, under perhaps the aegis of the Judiciary Committee, 282 00:24:19.649 --> 00:24:25.210 under perhaps Senator Leahy, but we need an examination of the surveillance laws and what 283 00:24:25.210 --> 00:24:29.350 we’re doing, why we’re doing it, what was done illegally, and so on. And it needs 284 00:24:29.350 --> 00:24:33.399 to be a broad investigation, the same way it was done in the 1970s under the Church 285 00:24:33.399 --> 00:24:33.649 Committee. 286 00:24:33.639 --> 00:24:38.669 AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you very much, Susan Landau, mathematician, former Sun Microsystems 287 00:24:38.669 --> 00:24:43.149 engineer, author of the book Surveillance or Security?: The Risks Posed by New Wiretapping 288 00:24:43.149 --> 00:24:48.610 Technologies. She received a Guggenheim Fellowship in 2012. When we come back, a debate on what 289 00:24:48.610 --> 00:24:55.610 Edward Snowden has done. Traitor or hero? Stay with us. 290 00:25:12.690 --> 00:25:19.690 NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now to a debate on Edward Snowden’s decision to leak a trove 291 00:26:37.159 --> 00:26:42.059 of secret documents outlining the NSA’s surveillance program. In an interview with 292 00:26:42.059 --> 00:26:47.210 The Guardian newspaper, Snowden described why he risked his career to leak the documents. 293 00:26:47.210 --> 00:26:52.070 EDWARD SNOWDEN: I think that the public is owed an explanation of the motivations behind 294 00:26:52.070 --> 00:26:57.000 the people who make these disclosures that are outside of the democratic model. When 295 00:26:57.000 --> 00:27:01.549 you are subverting the power of government, that that’s a fundamentally dangerous thing 296 00:27:01.549 --> 00:27:07.870 to democracy. And if you do that in secret consistently, you know, as the government 297 00:27:07.870 --> 00:27:13.730 does when it wants to benefit from a secret action that it took, it will kind of get its 298 00:27:13.730 --> 00:27:17.720 officials a mandate to go, "Hey, you know, tell the press about this thing and that thing, 299 00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:22.539 so the public is on our side." But they rarely, if ever, do that when an abuse occurs. That 300 00:27:22.539 --> 00:27:28.620 falls to individual citizens. But they’re typically maligned. You know, it becomes a 301 00:27:28.620 --> 00:27:33.070 thing of these people are against the country, they’re against the government. But I’m 302 00:27:33.070 --> 00:27:39.529 not. I’m no different from anybody else. I don’t have special skills. I’m just 303 00:27:39.529 --> 00:27:43.429 another guy who sits there, day to day, in the office, watches what happening—what’s 304 00:27:43.429 --> 00:27:49.039 happening, and goes, "This is something that’s not our place to decide. The public needs 305 00:27:49.039 --> 00:27:53.429 to decide whether these programs and policies are right or wrong." And I’m willing to 306 00:27:53.429 --> 00:27:58.620 go on the record to defend the authenticity of them and say, "I didn’t change these. 307 00:27:58.620 --> 00:28:03.399 I didn’t modify the story. This is the truth. This is what’s happening. You should decide 308 00:28:03.399 --> 00:28:04.880 whether we need to be doing this." 309 00:28:04.880 --> 00:28:09.669 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Edward Snowden’s actions have elicited a range of reactions. Jeffrey 310 00:28:09.669 --> 00:28:15.149 Toobin of CNN and The New Yorker writes that Snowden is, quote, "a grandiose narcissist 311 00:28:15.149 --> 00:28:20.090 who deserves to be in prison." Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein, chair of the Senate 312 00:28:20.090 --> 00:28:24.299 Intelligence Committee, said that Snowden should not be considered a whistleblower because, 313 00:28:24.299 --> 00:28:29.759 quote, "what he did was an act of treason." And Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South 314 00:28:29.759 --> 00:28:36.220 Carolina tweeted, "I hope we follow Mr Snowden to the ends of the earth to bring him to justice," 315 00:28:36.220 --> 00:28:40.330 language echoing what Senator Graham once said in the hunt for Osama bin Laden. 316 00:28:40.330 --> 00:28:46.080 AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, Douglas Rushkoff wrote on CNN, quote, "Snowden is a hero because 317 00:28:46.080 --> 00:28:50.659 he realized [that] our very humanity was being compromised by the blind implementation of 318 00:28:50.659 --> 00:28:56.080 machines in the name of making us safe," unquote. The editor of The American Conservative, Scott 319 00:28:56.080 --> 00:29:01.250 McConnell, wrote, quote, "If Obama wanted to do something smart, he should thank Snowden 320 00:29:01.250 --> 00:29:06.870 and offer him a job as a White House technology advisor." And Pentagon Papers whistleblower 321 00:29:06.870 --> 00:29:12.389 Daniel Ellsberg sang Snowden’s praises, writing, quote, "In my estimation, there has 322 00:29:12.389 --> 00:29:18.029 not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden’s release of NSA 323 00:29:18.029 --> 00:29:21.710 material—and that definitely includes the Pentagon Papers 40 years ago." 324 00:29:21.710 --> 00:29:26.429 For more, we host a debate on Edward Snowden. Is he a hero or a criminal, whistleblower 325 00:29:26.429 --> 00:29:30.700 or a traitor? Here in New York, we’re joined by Chris Hedges, senior fellow at The Nation 326 00:29:30.700 --> 00:29:33.679 Institute; was a foreign correspondent for The New York Times for 15 years, was part 327 00:29:33.679 --> 00:29:38.630 of a team of reporters that was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for the paper’s coverage 328 00:29:38.630 --> 00:29:43.230 of global terrorism; author, along with the cartoonist Joe Sacco, of the New York Times 329 00:29:43.230 --> 00:29:48.590 best-seller Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt . His most recent articleis called "The Judicial 330 00:29:48.590 --> 00:29:52.029 Lynching of Bradley Manning" at Truthdig.org. 331 00:29:52.029 --> 00:29:56.139 And in Chicago, Illinois, we’re joined by Geoffrey Stone, a professor at the University 332 00:29:56.139 --> 00:30:00.399 of Chicago Law School. His recent piece [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/edward-snowden-hero-or-tr_b_3418939.html] for The Huffington Post is called "Edward 333 00:30:00.399 --> 00:30:05.450 Snowden: 'Hero or Traitor'?" Stone served as an informal adviser to President Obama 334 00:30:05.450 --> 00:30:12.450 in 2008. In 1992, 20 years ago, Professor Stone hired Obama to teach constitutional 335 00:30:12.610 --> 00:30:18.090 law at the University of Chicago. Geoffrey Stone is also author of many books, including 336 00:30:18.090 --> 00:30:22.919 Top Secret: When Our Government Keeps Us in the Dark and Perilous Times: Free Speech in 337 00:30:22.919 --> 00:30:27.669 Wartime: From the Sedition Act of 1798 to the War on Terrorism. 338 00:30:27.669 --> 00:30:32.690 Chris Hedges, Geoffrey Stone, we welcome you both to Democracy Now! Professor Stone, I 339 00:30:32.690 --> 00:30:39.009 want to begin with you. In your piece, you say that Edward Snowden’s actions were criminal. 340 00:30:39.009 --> 00:30:43.090 Can you explain why you feel he should be in jail? 341 00:30:43.090 --> 00:30:48.000 GEOFFREY STONE: Well, there is a federal statute that makes it a crime for public employees 342 00:30:48.000 --> 00:30:53.899 who have been granted access to classified information to reveal that information to 343 00:30:53.899 --> 00:30:58.990 persons who are unauthorized to receive it. So, from a simple, straightforward, technical 344 00:30:58.990 --> 00:31:03.620 legal standpoint, there’s absolutely no question that Snowden violated the law. And 345 00:31:03.620 --> 00:31:08.980 from that standpoint, if he’s tried, he will be convicted, and he is in fact, from 346 00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:12.860 that perspective, a criminal. Whether one admires what he did is another question, but 347 00:31:12.860 --> 00:31:16.539 it doesn’t have anything to do with whether or not what he did was unlawful. 348 00:31:16.539 --> 00:31:21.639 The question, why I think he deserves punishment, is—he said it actually himself in the clip 349 00:31:21.639 --> 00:31:25.620 that you played earlier: He said, "I’m just an ordinary guy." Well, the fact is, he’s 350 00:31:25.620 --> 00:31:30.750 just an ordinary guy with absolutely no expertise in public policy, in the law, in national 351 00:31:30.750 --> 00:31:36.350 security. He’s a techie. He made the decision on his own, without any authorization, without 352 00:31:36.350 --> 00:31:43.350 any approval by the American people, to reveal classified information about which he had 353 00:31:43.460 --> 00:31:49.429 absolutely no expertise in terms of the danger to the nation, the value of the information 354 00:31:49.429 --> 00:31:54.350 to national security. That was a completely irresponsible and dangerous thing to do. Whether 355 00:31:54.350 --> 00:31:58.159 we think it was a positive thing in the long run or not is a separate question, but it 356 00:31:58.159 --> 00:31:59.080 was clearly criminal. 357 00:31:59.080 --> 00:32:00.200 AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges, your response? 358 00:32:00.200 --> 00:32:03.379 CHRIS HEDGES: Well, what we’re really having a debate about is whether or not we’re going 359 00:32:03.379 --> 00:32:09.259 to have a free press left or not. If there are no Snowdens, if there are no Mannings, 360 00:32:09.259 --> 00:32:16.259 if there are no Assanges, there will be no free press. And if the press—and let’s 361 00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:22.649 not forget that Snowden gave this to The Guardian. This was filtered through a press organization 362 00:32:22.649 --> 00:32:29.649 in a classic sort of way whistleblowers provide public information about unconstitutional, 363 00:32:30.210 --> 00:32:34.539 criminal activity by their government to the public. So the notion that he’s just some 364 00:32:34.539 --> 00:32:39.289 individual standing up and releasing stuff over the Internet is false. 365 00:32:39.289 --> 00:32:45.879 But more importantly, what he has exposed essentially shows that anybody who reaches 366 00:32:45.879 --> 00:32:52.879 out to the press to expose fraud, crimes, unconstitutional activity, which this clearly 367 00:32:54.570 --> 00:33:00.470 appears to be, can be traced and shut down. And that’s what’s so frightening. So, 368 00:33:00.470 --> 00:33:05.049 we are at a situation now, and I speak as a former investigative reporter for The New 369 00:33:05.049 --> 00:33:10.570 York Times, by which any investigation into the inner workings of government has become 370 00:33:10.570 --> 00:33:11.899 impossible. That’s the real debate. 371 00:33:11.899 --> 00:33:16.559 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Chris, how do you respond to the point that Geoffrey Stone made and 372 00:33:16.559 --> 00:33:23.450 how Snowden identified himself as an ordinary guy? Should any regular government employee 373 00:33:23.450 --> 00:33:29.110 or contractor be allowed to disclose whatever information he feels the public ought to be 374 00:33:29.110 --> 00:33:33.460 privy to, whether it’s classified by the government and his employer or her employer 375 00:33:33.460 --> 00:33:34.049 or not? 376 00:33:34.049 --> 00:33:41.049 CHRIS HEDGES: Well, if—that is what an act of conscience is. And reporters live—our 377 00:33:42.259 --> 00:33:47.559 sort of daily fare is built, investigative reporters, off of people who, within systems 378 00:33:47.559 --> 00:33:54.559 of power, have a conscience to expose activities by the power elite which are criminal in origin 379 00:33:57.070 --> 00:34:03.059 or unconstitutional. And that’s precisely what he did. And he did it in the traditional 380 00:34:03.059 --> 00:34:07.830 way, which was going to a journalist, Glenn Greenwald and The Guardian, and having it 381 00:34:07.830 --> 00:34:13.780 vetted by that publication before it was put out to the public. Was it a criminal? Well, 382 00:34:13.780 --> 00:34:19.410 yes, but it was—I suppose, in a technical sense, it was criminal, but set against the 383 00:34:19.410 --> 00:34:25.310 larger crime that is being committed by the state. When you have a system by which criminals 384 00:34:25.310 --> 00:34:31.180 are in power, criminals on Wall Street who are able to carry out massive fraud with no 385 00:34:31.180 --> 00:34:36.790 kinds of repercussions or serious regulation or investigation, criminals who torture in 386 00:34:36.790 --> 00:34:42.490 our black sites, criminals who carry out targeted assassinations, criminals who lie to the American 387 00:34:42.490 --> 00:34:49.490 public to prosecute preemptive war, which under international law is illegal, if you 388 00:34:50.040 --> 00:34:55.070 are a strict legalist, as apparently Professor Stone is, what you’re in essence doing is 389 00:34:55.070 --> 00:34:59.820 protecting criminal activity. I would argue that in large sections of our government it’s 390 00:34:59.820 --> 00:35:00.950 the criminals who are in power. 391 00:35:00.950 --> 00:35:02.710 AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stone, your response? 392 00:35:02.710 --> 00:35:08.150 GEOFFREY STONE: Well, first of all, there is, so far as I can tell from everything that’s 393 00:35:08.150 --> 00:35:13.230 been revealed, absolutely nothing illegal or criminal about these programs. They may 394 00:35:13.230 --> 00:35:17.110 be terrible public policy—I’m not sure I approve of it at all—but the fact is the 395 00:35:17.110 --> 00:35:21.900 claim that they’re unconstitutional and illegal is wildly premature. Certainly from 396 00:35:21.900 --> 00:35:26.750 the standpoint of what’s been released so far, whether Mr. Hedges likes it or not, or 397 00:35:26.750 --> 00:35:31.140 whether Mr. Snowdon likes it or not, these are not unconstitutional or illegal programs. 398 00:35:31.140 --> 00:35:37.740 AMY GOODMAN: Let me go to a letter that you co-signed, Professor Stone, in 2006 with other 399 00:35:37.740 --> 00:35:43.300 prominent attorneys about NSA surveillance under President Bush. You were criticizing 400 00:35:43.300 --> 00:35:48.170 it. You wrote, quote, "Although the program’s secrecy prevents us from being privy to all 401 00:35:48.170 --> 00:35:53.410 of its details, the Justice Department’s defense of what it concedes was secret and 402 00:35:53.410 --> 00:35:58.680 warrantless electronic surveillance of persons within the United States fails to identify 403 00:35:58.680 --> 00:36:04.550 any plausible legal authority for such surveillance. Accordingly the program appears on its face 404 00:36:04.550 --> 00:36:10.820 to violate existing law." How do you compare that to what we’re seeing today? 405 00:36:10.820 --> 00:36:16.400 GEOFFREY STONE: They’re two completely different programs. The Bush NSA surveillance program 406 00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:22.780 was enacted in direct defiance of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The Obama program, 407 00:36:22.780 --> 00:36:26.820 if we want to call it that, was approved by Congress. That’s number one. Number two 408 00:36:26.820 --> 00:36:33.190 is, the Bush program involved wiretapping of the contents of phone conversations. The 409 00:36:33.190 --> 00:36:37.470 Supreme Court has long held that that is a violation of the Fourth Amendment, if there’s 410 00:36:37.470 --> 00:36:42.860 not an individualized determination of probable cause. The Obama program, if we want to call 411 00:36:42.860 --> 00:36:47.550 it that, does not involve wiretapping; it involves phone numbers. And the Supreme Court 412 00:36:47.550 --> 00:36:53.720 has long held that the government is allowed to obtain phone records, bank records, library 413 00:36:53.720 --> 00:36:58.440 records, purchase records, once you disclose that information to a third party. And there 414 00:36:58.440 --> 00:37:01.770 is no Fourth Amendment violation. So they’re two completely different programs. 415 00:37:01.770 --> 00:37:06.920 AMY GOODMAN: But if you just heard our conversation with the mathematician Susan Landau, she argued 416 00:37:06.920 --> 00:37:12.850 that often metadata is more revealing than the transcript of an actual conversation. 417 00:37:12.850 --> 00:37:16.570 Do you think the law should change, Geoffrey Stone, to include this metadata? 418 00:37:16.570 --> 00:37:23.010 GEOFFREY STONE: Well, I’m not persuaded by her argument that it’s more revealing. 419 00:37:23.010 --> 00:37:27.790 I do believe that it’s problematic, and I think, in fact, there should be statutes 420 00:37:27.790 --> 00:37:31.980 that prohibit the gathering of this type of data by private entities, as well as by the 421 00:37:31.980 --> 00:37:37.580 government, in the absence of at least a compelling justification. And I thought the Supreme Court’s 422 00:37:37.580 --> 00:37:41.100 decisions initially on this question were wrong. So I would certainly want to see them 423 00:37:41.100 --> 00:37:44.610 differently. But in terms of what the law is, it’s not unconstitutional, it’s not 424 00:37:44.610 --> 00:37:47.850 illegal, and it’s completely different from what the Bush administration was doing. 425 00:37:47.850 --> 00:37:49.790 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chris Hedges, do you agree that— 426 00:37:49.790 --> 00:37:53.110 CHRIS HEDGES: Well, there are plenty of lawyers who disagree with Professor Stone. 427 00:37:53.110 --> 00:37:53.800 GEOFFREY STONE: Not many. 428 00:37:53.800 --> 00:37:58.680 CHRIS HEDGES: Well, the ACLU has just issued a lawsuit over this, claiming that it’s 429 00:37:58.680 --> 00:38:04.360 a violation of the Fourth Amendment. So, I haven’t done a poll. Frankly, the legal 430 00:38:04.360 --> 00:38:09.930 profession, under this steady assault of civil liberties, can’t hold its head very high. 431 00:38:09.930 --> 00:38:11.660 There are a few out there, at the ACLU— 432 00:38:11.660 --> 00:38:13.370 GEOFFREY STONE: Unlike—unlike the journalistic profession? 433 00:38:13.370 --> 00:38:15.050 CHRIS HEDGES: —Michael Ratner and a few others. But, you know— 434 00:38:15.050 --> 00:38:19.230 AMY GOODMAN: Geoffrey Stone, aren’t you on the board of the ACLU, or were you? 435 00:38:19.230 --> 00:38:21.640 GEOFFREY STONE: I’m on the National Advisory Council. 436 00:38:21.640 --> 00:38:25.980 AMY GOODMAN: Yes. So what do you think of them suing the government over this? 437 00:38:25.980 --> 00:38:30.800 GEOFFREY STONE: I think it’s great. I think that they are perfectly right to bring the 438 00:38:30.800 --> 00:38:36.080 question. That’s their job. Their job is to challenge whether or not things are constitutional, 439 00:38:36.080 --> 00:38:39.020 to raise those questions. That’s exactly what they should be doing. Doesn’t mean 440 00:38:39.020 --> 00:38:42.630 they’re always right, but they should be presenting these questions to the courts. 441 00:38:42.630 --> 00:38:44.500 That’s their job. That’s their responsibility. 442 00:38:44.500 --> 00:38:48.500 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chris Hedges, one of the problems that people have pointed to is that there 443 00:38:48.500 --> 00:38:52.110 aren’t procedures or mechanisms in place for people within the government to point 444 00:38:52.110 --> 00:38:56.860 out wrongdoing when it does occur. Do you think that’s one of the problems that’s 445 00:38:56.860 --> 00:39:00.380 occurred in this case with Edward Snowden? Or, for that matter, your most recent article 446 00:39:00.380 --> 00:39:02.970 was on Army whistleblower, Private Bradley Manning. 447 00:39:02.970 --> 00:39:08.030 CHRIS HEDGES: Well, we used to have a mechanism. It was called the press. And we used to be 448 00:39:08.030 --> 00:39:15.030 able to tell our sources that they would be protected and that they would not be investigated 449 00:39:15.190 --> 00:39:19.550 for providing information that exposed the inner workings of power. Unfortunately, the 450 00:39:19.550 --> 00:39:23.200 press, like most institutions in this country, and I would add the legal profession, has 451 00:39:23.200 --> 00:39:29.080 largely collapsed under this corporate coup d’état that’s taken place and is no longer 452 00:39:29.080 --> 00:39:33.910 functioning. And I want to get back, that what this is fundamentally a debate about 453 00:39:33.910 --> 00:39:39.190 is whether we are going to have, through the press, an independent institution within this 454 00:39:39.190 --> 00:39:46.190 country that can examine the inner workings of power or not. And it is now—I mean, many 455 00:39:46.610 --> 00:39:53.090 of us had suspected this widespread surveillance, but now that it’s confirmed, we’re seeing—you 456 00:39:53.090 --> 00:39:57.950 know, why did Snowden come out publicly? Well, because I think he knew that they would find 457 00:39:57.950 --> 00:40:03.230 out anyway, because they have all of Glenn Greenwald’s email, phone records and everything 458 00:40:03.230 --> 00:40:09.910 else, and they can very quickly find out who he was speaking to and whether Snowden had 459 00:40:09.910 --> 00:40:15.820 contact with him. And that—you know, I speak as reporter—is terrifying, because it essentially 460 00:40:15.820 --> 00:40:21.090 shuts down any ability to counter the official propaganda and the official narrative and 461 00:40:21.090 --> 00:40:26.370 expose the crimes. And we have seen in the last few years tremendous crimes being committed 462 00:40:26.370 --> 00:40:30.760 by those in power. We have no ability now to investigate them. 463 00:40:30.760 --> 00:40:33.740 AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stone, let me ask you about whether the reporters from The Guardian 464 00:40:33.740 --> 00:40:39.250 and The Washington Post should be prosecuted. CNN’s Anderson Cooper put this question 465 00:40:39.250 --> 00:40:43.340 to Republican Congressmember Peter King of New York last night. 466 00:40:43.340 --> 00:40:47.890 ANDERSON COOPER: As far as reporters who helped reveal these programs, do you believe something 467 00:40:47.890 --> 00:40:51.040 should happen to them? Do you believe they should be punished, as well? 468 00:40:51.040 --> 00:40:56.180 REP. PETER KING: Actually, if they—if they willingly knew that this was classified information, 469 00:40:56.180 --> 00:40:59.770 I think actions should be taken, especially on something of this magnitude. I know that 470 00:40:59.770 --> 00:41:03.860 the whole issue of leaks has been gone into over the last month, but I think something 471 00:41:03.860 --> 00:41:09.850 on this magnitude, there is an obligation, both moral but also legal, I believe, against 472 00:41:09.850 --> 00:41:15.680 a reporter disclosing something which would so severely compromise national security. 473 00:41:15.680 --> 00:41:19.750 AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stone, your response to what Peter King is saying? 474 00:41:19.750 --> 00:41:24.700 GEOFFREY STONE: He’s just wrong. The Supreme Court, in the Pentagon Papers case, for example, 475 00:41:24.700 --> 00:41:30.540 made very clear that although Daniel Ellsberg could be prosecuted for—as a public official 476 00:41:30.540 --> 00:41:35.520 stealing information, that The New York Times and The Washington Post could not be restrained 477 00:41:35.520 --> 00:41:39.480 from publishing that information. The court has essentially held that although the government 478 00:41:39.480 --> 00:41:44.530 can control classified information at its source by prohibiting employees from revealing 479 00:41:44.530 --> 00:41:48.850 it, once the information goes out, it cannot then punish the press for publishing it. It’s 480 00:41:48.850 --> 00:41:53.450 a little bit odd as a system. But the idea is that, on the one hand, we have freedom 481 00:41:53.450 --> 00:41:57.000 of the press, which has to be preserved; on the other hand, the government has a legitimate 482 00:41:57.000 --> 00:42:01.940 interest in maintaining confidentiality at the source within the government itself. So, 483 00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:08.250 no, clearly, Greenwald and Reuters and so on, none of those can be — The Guardian, 484 00:42:08.250 --> 00:42:11.880 none of those can be punished, consistent with the First Amendment. That’s clear. 485 00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:17.040 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Professor Stone, so do you believe that Edward Snowden’s position is 486 00:42:17.040 --> 00:42:21.260 comparable to Daniel Ellsberg’s position with the Pentagon Papers and that The Guardian 487 00:42:21.260 --> 00:42:23.870 played a comparable role to The New York Times? 488 00:42:23.870 --> 00:42:30.030 GEOFFREY STONE: So, I think Snowden’s position, based upon what I know now, is much worse. 489 00:42:30.030 --> 00:42:37.030 Ellsberg revealed historical information that had really no appreciable threat to the national 490 00:42:37.370 --> 00:42:42.820 security. It was all old information about what the government had done in the past. 491 00:42:42.820 --> 00:42:48.350 And what Snowden has revealed is information about ongoing programs, which, we’re told, 492 00:42:48.350 --> 00:42:52.620 are extremely important to the national security, and we’re told that the revelation of those 493 00:42:52.620 --> 00:42:57.910 programs makes them far less efficient. That’s a very serious—potentially very serious 494 00:42:57.910 --> 00:43:00.400 harm to the nation. That was not the case in Ellsberg’s situation. 495 00:43:00.400 --> 00:43:01.140 AMY GOODMAN: But, Professor Stone— 496 00:43:01.140 --> 00:43:02.650 GEOFFREY STONE: So I think, from that standpoint, what— 497 00:43:02.650 --> 00:43:04.160 AMY GOODMAN: Henry Kissinger said— 498 00:43:04.160 --> 00:43:04.610 GEOFFREY STONE: Yes. 499 00:43:04.610 --> 00:43:08.660 AMY GOODMAN: —Dan Ellsberg was "the most dangerous man in America," so they certainly—at 500 00:43:08.660 --> 00:43:13.360 that time, they were telling us that what he was doing was threatening national security. 501 00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:18.420 GEOFFREY STONE: He said that at the time before they had an opportunity to really reflect 502 00:43:18.420 --> 00:43:23.830 on what was released. Years later, or even weeks later, that was no longer the case. 503 00:43:23.830 --> 00:43:30.830 So, I think that those two situations are not remotely comparable, in terms of the harm 504 00:43:30.870 --> 00:43:36.170 that Ellsberg did to the country, which I think was trivial, relative to what Snowden 505 00:43:36.170 --> 00:43:38.460 has done, which arguably is far more serious. 506 00:43:38.460 --> 00:43:42.980 Let me make another point about civil liberties here, by the way, that it’s extremely important 507 00:43:42.980 --> 00:43:46.680 to understand that if you want to protect civil liberties in this country, you not only 508 00:43:46.680 --> 00:43:50.500 have to protect civil liberties, you also have to protect against terrorism, because 509 00:43:50.500 --> 00:43:54.640 what will destroy civil liberties in this country more effectively than anything else 510 00:43:54.640 --> 00:43:59.300 is another 9/11 attack. And if the government is not careful about that, and if we have 511 00:43:59.300 --> 00:44:03.000 more attacks like that, you can be sure that the kind of things the government is doing 512 00:44:03.000 --> 00:44:07.770 now are going to be regarded as small potatoes compared to what would happen in the future. 513 00:44:07.770 --> 00:44:11.580 So it’s very complicated, asking what’s the best way to protect civil liberties in 514 00:44:11.580 --> 00:44:12.150 the United States. 515 00:44:12.150 --> 00:44:13.540 CHRIS HEDGES: I have a very— 516 00:44:13.540 --> 00:44:14.140 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Chris Hedges, could you— 517 00:44:14.140 --> 00:44:17.820 CHRIS HEDGES: I just don’t buy this argument that, you know, this hurts national security. 518 00:44:17.820 --> 00:44:22.130 I covered al-Qaeda for The New York Times, and, believe me, they know they’re being 519 00:44:22.130 --> 00:44:27.910 monitored. The whole idea that somehow it comes as a great surprise to jihadist groups 520 00:44:27.910 --> 00:44:34.910 that their emails, websites and phone calls are being tracked is absurd. This is—we’re 521 00:44:35.640 --> 00:44:41.900 talking about the wholesale collection of information on virtually most of the American 522 00:44:41.900 --> 00:44:48.340 public, and the consequences of that are truly terrifying. At that point, we are in essence 523 00:44:48.340 --> 00:44:55.000 snuffing out the capacity of any kind of investigation into the inner workings of power. And to throw 524 00:44:55.000 --> 00:44:59.790 out this notion that it harmed—this harmed national security, there’s no evidence for 525 00:44:59.790 --> 00:45:03.810 that, in the same way that there is no evidence that the information that Bradley Manning 526 00:45:03.810 --> 00:45:09.580 leaked in any way harmed national security. It didn’t. What the security and surveillance 527 00:45:09.580 --> 00:45:16.580 state is doing is playing on fear and using that fear to accrue to themselves tremendous 528 00:45:18.010 --> 00:45:24.230 forms of power that in a civil society, in a democracy, they should never have. And that’s 529 00:45:24.230 --> 00:45:26.830 the battle that’s underway right now, and, frankly, we’re losing. 530 00:45:26.830 --> 00:45:31.340 AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you, Professor Stone, to reflect on Martin Luther King’s 531 00:45:31.340 --> 00:45:37.070 letter from Birmingham jail written April 16, 1963, when he said, "One who breaks an 532 00:45:37.070 --> 00:45:42.240 unjust law that conscience tells him is unjust, and who willingly accepts the penalty of imprisonment 533 00:45:42.240 --> 00:45:47.510 in order to arouse the conscience of the community over its injustice, is in reality expressing 534 00:45:47.510 --> 00:45:49.050 the highest respect for law." 535 00:45:49.050 --> 00:45:50.870 GEOFFREY STONE: Well, obviously, King— 536 00:45:50.870 --> 00:45:52.760 AMY GOODMAN: Could you respond to that? 537 00:45:52.760 --> 00:45:58.220 GEOFFREY STONE: Sure. Obviously, King is right. The question is whether it’s an unjust law. 538 00:45:58.220 --> 00:46:02.940 So, people who violate a law because they think it is unjust don’t necessarily fit 539 00:46:02.940 --> 00:46:09.250 within the letter from the Birmingham jail. King was talking about protesting racial segregation, 540 00:46:09.250 --> 00:46:14.170 and that’s a little bit different in terms of the moral status of it. Now, maybe it’s 541 00:46:14.170 --> 00:46:19.490 true. I mean, maybe Chris Hedges is right, and maybe that—that Snowden is a hero, and 542 00:46:19.490 --> 00:46:24.700 maybe this is all a fraud on the part of the government, this information serves no useful 543 00:46:24.700 --> 00:46:29.170 purpose, and it’s fundamentally important to the United States that it’s been revealed. 544 00:46:29.170 --> 00:46:33.030 Maybe that’s true. And if it turns out to be true, then I’ll be the first to say Snowden 545 00:46:33.030 --> 00:46:37.730 was a hero. But at the moment, I have absolutely no reason to believe that. And to say that 546 00:46:37.730 --> 00:46:43.300 some people act on legitimate conscience and therefore violate unjust laws is not to say 547 00:46:43.300 --> 00:46:46.880 that everyone who violates a law is Martin Luther King in the Birmingham jail. 548 00:46:46.880 --> 00:46:51.230 AMY GOODMAN: I want to put that question to Chris, but I wanted to ask you, Geoffrey Stone, 549 00:46:51.230 --> 00:46:58.230 if you were Edward Snowden’s attorney, what arguments would you put forward for him right 550 00:47:00.110 --> 00:47:01.280 now? 551 00:47:01.280 --> 00:47:08.280 GEOFFREY STONE: Legally, I don’t think he has—honestly, I don’t think he has any 552 00:47:08.580 --> 00:47:15.430 legal arguments that would be a defense to the charge that he violated the law about 553 00:47:15.430 --> 00:47:21.860 government contractors not disclosing classified information to persons who are not authorized 554 00:47:21.860 --> 00:47:26.240 to receive it. I don’t think he has a defense. Some people commit a crime, and they committed 555 00:47:26.240 --> 00:47:29.470 the crime. And I don’t know that there’s any defense sometimes. 556 00:47:29.470 --> 00:47:36.470 AMY GOODMAN: Interestingly, Dan Ellsberg faced treason trial, but ultimately, the—he ended 557 00:47:36.940 --> 00:47:42.100 up being exonerated because of the illegal wiretapping that was done of him. 558 00:47:42.100 --> 00:47:46.930 GEOFFREY STONE: Well, he wasn’t exonerated. In his case, the judge dropped the charges 559 00:47:46.930 --> 00:47:53.300 against him because the Nixon administration searched his psychiatrist’s office in violation 560 00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:58.780 of the Constitution, and the judge concluded that that was prosecutorial misconduct, and 561 00:47:58.780 --> 00:48:03.480 therefore dismissed the prosecution. If the government does something similar in Snowden’s 562 00:48:03.480 --> 00:48:08.240 case and the court finds that it’s a violation of his constitutional rights in the course 563 00:48:08.240 --> 00:48:12.680 of the investigation and dismisses the charges, that would be something, as his lawyer, I’d 564 00:48:12.680 --> 00:48:15.440 certainly want to know. But on the merits of the charge as they presently—as it presently 565 00:48:15.440 --> 00:48:20.270 stands, I think it’s a sentencing question, not a criminality question. 566 00:48:20.270 --> 00:48:25.170 AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges, if you could respond to the King quote and the significance of 567 00:48:25.170 --> 00:48:26.550 what Snowden did? 568 00:48:26.550 --> 00:48:31.640 CHRIS HEDGES: Well, without figures like Snowden, without figures like Manning, without figures 569 00:48:31.640 --> 00:48:38.610 like Julian Assange, essentially, the blinds are drawn. We have no window into what’s 570 00:48:38.610 --> 00:48:44.550 being done in our name, including the crimes that are being done in our name. Again, I—you 571 00:48:44.550 --> 00:48:49.930 know, having worked as an investigative reporter, the lifeblood of my work were figures like 572 00:48:49.930 --> 00:48:56.830 these, who had the moral courage to stand up and name the crimes that they witnessed. 573 00:48:56.830 --> 00:49:00.980 And these people are always, at the moment that they stand up—and even King, of course, 574 00:49:00.980 --> 00:49:07.090 was persecuted and reviled and denounced, hounded by J. Edgar Hoover, who attempted, 575 00:49:07.090 --> 00:49:12.190 through blackmail, to get him to commit suicide before accepting the Nobel Prize. Let’s 576 00:49:12.190 --> 00:49:17.180 not forget that all of these figures, like Snowden, come under this character assassination, 577 00:49:17.180 --> 00:49:23.040 which, frankly, I think Professor Stone is engaging in. And that’s not uncommon. That’s 578 00:49:23.040 --> 00:49:28.850 what comes with the territory when you carry out an act of conscience. It’s a very lonely 579 00:49:28.850 --> 00:49:35.070 and frightening—and it makes these figures, like Snowden, deeply courageous, because, 580 00:49:35.070 --> 00:49:41.770 I mean, the whole debate—traitor or whistleblower—for me, you know, hearing this on the press is 581 00:49:41.770 --> 00:49:47.070 watching the press commit collective suicide, because without those figures, there is no 582 00:49:47.070 --> 00:49:47.510 press. 583 00:49:47.510 --> 00:49:54.510 AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to end with Professor Stone. You were an early adviser to President 584 00:49:54.560 --> 00:49:58.670 Obama. You gave him his first job at University of Chicago Law School. You were the dean of 585 00:49:58.670 --> 00:50:04.310 the University of Chicago Law School. What would you advise him today? 586 00:50:04.310 --> 00:50:11.310 GEOFFREY STONE: I think there needs to be a really careful re-evaluation of the classification 587 00:50:13.210 --> 00:50:17.720 system. I—there’s no question that we wildly overclassify, and that creates all 588 00:50:17.720 --> 00:50:22.940 sorts of problems, both for the press and for the ability of the government to keep 589 00:50:22.940 --> 00:50:26.200 secrets, because if you try to keep everything secret, you don’t effectively keep very 590 00:50:26.200 --> 00:50:31.880 much secret. So I think that’s critical. I think there is a serious question about 591 00:50:31.880 --> 00:50:36.620 how we make the trade-off between security and privacy, and I think that that’s an 592 00:50:36.620 --> 00:50:41.700 issue that needs to be addressed carefully. Certainly, within the administration and within 593 00:50:41.700 --> 00:50:47.830 the government, to the extent there are genuinely secret policies that need to be kept secret, 594 00:50:47.830 --> 00:50:52.810 and I believe that perfectly possible, then I think that does not immunize them from serious 595 00:50:52.810 --> 00:50:57.990 debate by responsible people within the four corners of the administration, bringing in 596 00:50:57.990 --> 00:51:02.440 people who can have national security clearances to take the devil’s advocate position and 597 00:51:02.440 --> 00:51:07.250 challenge these issues. So I think there’s a lot that can and should be done, and I think 598 00:51:07.250 --> 00:51:13.410 that it’s easy to get swept up in the notion of security being the be all and end all. 599 00:51:13.410 --> 00:51:17.360 This is a nation that’s committed to individual privacy, to freedom of the press, to freedom 600 00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:22.130 of speech, and those values need to be respected. And I think government constantly has to be 601 00:51:22.130 --> 00:51:25.440 re-examining itself, because all the temptations are in the wrong direction. 602 00:51:25.440 --> 00:51:28.230 NERMEEN SHAIKH: Professor Geoffrey Stone, before we conclude, I’d like to ask you 603 00:51:28.230 --> 00:51:32.380 about an article [http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/27/opinion/27stone.html] you wrote in 2011 for The New York Times called 604 00:51:32.380 --> 00:51:37.950 "Our Untransparent President." You wrote, quote, "The record of the Obama administration 605 00:51:37.950 --> 00:51:43.020 on this fundamental issue of American democracy has surely fallen short of expectations. This 606 00:51:43.020 --> 00:51:47.590 is a lesson in 'trust us.' Those in power are always certain that they themselves will 607 00:51:47.590 --> 00:51:52.700 act reasonably, and they resist limits on their own discretion. The problem is, 'trust 608 00:51:52.700 --> 00:51:58.930 us' is no way to run a self-governing society," end-quote. What’s your assessment of the 609 00:51:58.930 --> 00:52:03.660 comments that you made then relative to now and his—Obama’s record on transparency 610 00:52:03.660 --> 00:52:04.480 and civil liberties? 611 00:52:04.480 --> 00:52:08.800 GEOFFREY STONE: Well, I think the comment was correct then, and I think it’s correct 612 00:52:08.800 --> 00:52:13.910 today. I think that there’s a temptation on the part of public officials to basically 613 00:52:13.910 --> 00:52:17.340 say, "We don’t to be hassled, we don’t want to be bothered, we don’t want to be 614 00:52:17.340 --> 00:52:21.340 criticized, so we’ll just do what’s in the best interest of the country, and we don’t 615 00:52:21.340 --> 00:52:26.000 have to tell anybody about it." And that’s a huge danger in a democracy. And—but the 616 00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:31.560 fact that I accept that and passionately believe it does not mean that everything the government 617 00:52:31.560 --> 00:52:36.630 does in confidence and in secret should not be in confidence or in secret. The problem 618 00:52:36.630 --> 00:52:37.750 is where to draw the line. 619 00:52:37.750 --> 00:52:43.510 So, yes, I would criticize the Obama administration, in general, for being overly concerned with 620 00:52:43.510 --> 00:52:48.120 secrecy and not being sufficiently transparent. The point I made earlier about overclassification 621 00:52:48.120 --> 00:52:53.970 is a good example. But at the same time, I do recognize that there are situations in 622 00:52:53.970 --> 00:53:00.250 which secrecy is critical, and the problem is being able to discern when that’s necessary 623 00:53:00.250 --> 00:53:05.590 and when it’s not. And to do that, you need to have people within the debate who are internally 624 00:53:05.590 --> 00:53:10.230 challenging the necessity for secrecy and confidentiality. I don’t think the Obama 625 00:53:10.230 --> 00:53:12.160 administration has done a very good job of that. 626 00:53:12.160 --> 00:53:15.920 AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges, just 30 seconds, and I know that you were attending the Bradley 627 00:53:15.920 --> 00:53:17.680 Manning trial, but linking the two. 628 00:53:17.680 --> 00:53:22.720 CHRIS HEDGES: Well, we’re talking about the death of a free press, the death of a 629 00:53:22.720 --> 00:53:29.540 civil society. This is far beyond a reasonable debate. We make the East German Stasi state 630 00:53:29.540 --> 00:53:36.310 look like the Boy Scouts. And if we don’t wrest back this power for privacy, for the 631 00:53:36.310 --> 00:53:42.260 capacity to investigate what our power elite is doing, I think we can essentially say our 632 00:53:42.260 --> 00:53:44.140 democracy has been snuffed out. 633 00:53:44.140 --> 00:53:47.260 AMY GOODMAN: Chris Hedges and Geoffrey Stone, I want to thank you for being with us. Geoffrey 634 00:53:47.260 --> 00:53:51.500 Stone, former dean at the University of Chicago Law School, now professor there. His recent 635 00:53:51.500 --> 00:53:53.280 piece [http://www.huffingtonpost.com/geoffrey-r-stone/edward-snowden-hero-or-tr_b_3418939.html] for The Huffington Post is called "Edward 636 00:53:53.280 --> 00:53:58.860 Snowden: 'Hero or Traitor'?" Chris Hedges, longtime journalist, now senior fellow at 637 00:53:58.860 --> 00:54:02.590 The Nation Institute, foreign correspondent for The New York Times before that for 15 638 00:54:02.590 --> 00:54:06.850 years, part of the team that won the Pulitzer Prize for coverage of global terrorism. 639 00:54:06.850 --> 00:54:12.060 This is Democracy Now! When we come back, we go back 50 years ago today, when Medgar 640 00:54:12.060 --> 00:54:19.060 Evers was assassinated. Stay with us. 641 00:55:17.490 --> 00:55:22.130 NERMEEN SHAIKH: We end today’s show remembering the life of African-American civil rights 642 00:55:22.130 --> 00:55:28.670 activist Medgar Evers. In the early 1960s, Evers served as the first NAACP field secretary 643 00:55:28.670 --> 00:55:33.270 for Mississippi, where he worked to end segregation and fought for voter rights. It was 50 years 644 00:55:33.270 --> 00:55:38.550 ago today, June 12th, 1963, when the 37-year-old organizer was assassinated in his driveway. 645 00:55:38.550 --> 00:55:44.880 AMY GOODMAN: I recently caught up with his widow, Myrlie Evers, at an NAACP dinner here 646 00:55:44.880 --> 00:55:49.670 in New York and asked her how people should remember her husband, for whom she sought 647 00:55:49.670 --> 00:55:51.910 justice for so many years. 648 00:55:51.910 --> 00:55:57.450 MYRLIE EVERS-WILLIAMS: Well, what I would encourage young people to do is to go online 649 00:55:57.450 --> 00:56:03.390 and find out as much as they can about him, his contributions, to go, believe it or not, 650 00:56:03.390 --> 00:56:10.390 to their libraries and do research, and to say to them that he was a man of all time, 651 00:56:13.060 --> 00:56:19.340 one who was totally dedicated to freedom for everyone, and was willing to pay a price. 652 00:56:19.340 --> 00:56:25.370 And he knew what that price was going to be, but he was willing to pay it. As he said at 653 00:56:25.370 --> 00:56:31.850 one of his last speeches, "I love my wife, and I love my children, and I want to create 654 00:56:31.850 --> 00:56:37.340 a better life for them and all women and all children, regardless of race, creed or color." 655 00:56:37.340 --> 00:56:44.340 I think that kind of sizes him up. He knew what was going to happen. He didn’t want 656 00:56:46.070 --> 00:56:52.990 to die, but he was willing to take the risk. AMY GOODMAN: Talk about where he was coming 657 00:56:52.990 --> 00:56:55.610 from that night that he was killed in your driveway. 658 00:56:55.610 --> 00:57:02.610 MYRLIE EVERS-WILLIAMS: Medgar was coming from a mass rally that we had two or three times 659 00:57:12.610 --> 00:57:19.610 a week, actually. And there had been a meeting after that session, and he was on his way 660 00:57:21.670 --> 00:57:28.670 home. I know how weary he was, because he got out of his car on the driver’s side, 661 00:57:32.560 --> 00:57:39.560 which was next to the road where the assassin was waiting, and we had determined quite some 662 00:57:40.640 --> 00:57:47.640 time ago that we should always get out on the other side of the car. And that night, 663 00:57:49.960 --> 00:57:56.960 he got out on the driver’s side with an armful of T-shirts that said "Jim Crow must 664 00:57:58.290 --> 00:58:05.290 go." And that bullet struck him in his back, ricocheted throughout his chest, and he lasted 665 00:58:07.350 --> 00:58:11.590 30 minutes after that. And the doctors said they didn’t know how he did. But he was 666 00:58:11.590 --> 00:58:18.590 determined to live. The good thing, his body is not here, but he still lives. And I’m 667 00:58:22.050 --> 00:58:29.050 very happy, proud and pleased to have played a part in making that come true. 668 00:58:29.500 --> 00:58:36.500 AMY GOODMAN: Myrlie Evers, 50 years ago today, June 12th, 1963, her husband, the civil rights 669 00:58:37.350 --> 00:58:44.350 leader Medgar Evers, 37 years old, was assassinated in his driveway in Jackson, Mississippi.