WEBVTT 1 00:00:14.940 --> 00:00:17.740 From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now! 2 00:00:17.740 --> 00:00:23.490 Well, we’re relieved that the Duma has granted us amnesty; however, all of this is tempered 3 00:00:23.490 --> 00:00:29.599 by the fact that we were arrested for a crime we didn’t commit, we were detained illegally 4 00:00:29.599 --> 00:00:34.680 for two months. And our biggest feeling is that this is—it’s about time something 5 00:00:34.680 --> 00:00:36.070 positive happened. 6 00:00:36.070 --> 00:00:41.410 As Russia grants amnesty to thousands of prisoners, we’ll go to Saint Petersburg to speak with 7 00:00:41.410 --> 00:00:46.190 two of the Greenpeace activists who were arrested for trying to stop Russian oil drilling in 8 00:00:46.190 --> 00:00:47.210 the Arctic. 9 00:00:47.210 --> 00:00:52.969 Then, Amazon justice. A court in Canada rules Ecuadorean farmers and fishermen can try to 10 00:00:52.969 --> 00:00:58.739 seize the assets of oil giant Chevron based on a 2011 decision that found the company 11 00:00:58.739 --> 00:01:03.999 liable for billions for oil pollution. But Chevron has filed its own lawsuit that argues 12 00:01:03.999 --> 00:01:08.100 the verdict was won through fabrication of evidence and bribery. 13 00:01:08.100 --> 00:01:13.909 Nearly every single person who’s been named as a defendant in Chevron’s retaliatory 14 00:01:13.909 --> 00:01:19.450 RICO suit has loved ones, has family members who have died, who have contracted cancer, 15 00:01:19.450 --> 00:01:25.930 who have suffered from birth defects and other oil-related illness due to Chevron’s contamination. 16 00:01:25.930 --> 00:01:30.260 This lawsuit essentially rubs salt in their wounds. 17 00:01:30.260 --> 00:01:35.490 We’ll speak with Paul Barrett of Bloomberg Businessweek about how oil corporations, from 18 00:01:35.490 --> 00:01:40.420 Chevron to BP, are fighting lawsuits brought against them by attacking the lawyers handling 19 00:01:40.420 --> 00:01:41.450 the cases. 20 00:01:41.450 --> 00:01:46.560 Then, in a major victory for prisoner rights advocates, President Obama has commuted the 21 00:01:46.560 --> 00:01:51.430 sentences of eight people he said were serving unfair sentences for drug crimes, most of 22 00:01:51.430 --> 00:01:56.640 them sentenced to life in prison for charges related to crack cocaine. We’ll get reaction 23 00:01:56.640 --> 00:02:01.260 from the ACLU’s Jennifer Turner, author of the report, "A Living Death: Life Without 24 00:02:01.260 --> 00:02:04.090 Parole for Nonviolent Offenses." 25 00:02:04.090 --> 00:02:11.090 All that and more, coming up. 26 00:02:11.980 --> 00:02:17.690 Welcome to Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 27 00:02:17.690 --> 00:02:21.250 President Obama has commuted the sentences of eight prisoners serving lengthy terms for 28 00:02:21.250 --> 00:02:26.550 crack cocaine offenses, saying they were "sentenced under an unfair system." That system included 29 00:02:26.550 --> 00:02:32.550 a 100-to-1 sentencing gap for crack and powder cocaine offenses, which was eased by a reform 30 00:02:32.550 --> 00:02:37.750 law in 2011. All eight people who received commutations have served more than 15 years 31 00:02:37.750 --> 00:02:42.110 in prison; six had been sentenced to life. We’ll have more on the story after headlines 32 00:02:42.110 --> 00:02:43.920 and speak to one of the prisoners, Jason Hernandez . 33 00:02:43.920 --> 00:02:49.030 In Central African Republic, gunfire rang out in the capital Bangui today as Christian 34 00:02:49.030 --> 00:02:54.730 fighters attacked Muslim neighborhoods. The country has faced a spiraling sectarian crisis 35 00:02:54.730 --> 00:02:59.959 since Muslim rebels ousted the Christian-led government in March. Amnesty International 36 00:02:59.959 --> 00:03:02.140 has warned both sides are committing war crimes. 37 00:03:02.140 --> 00:03:04.340 Christian Mukosa, CAR researcher for Amnesty International: "This is a situation where 38 00:03:04.340 --> 00:03:09.450 you have neighbors killing each other. And you have people who knew each other for a 39 00:03:09.450 --> 00:03:16.450 long, long time are killing and using machetes to not make more noise when killing. So we 40 00:03:17.880 --> 00:03:24.880 came across a lot of issues of extrajudicial executions, mutilation of bodies. In fact, 41 00:03:25.150 --> 00:03:29.000 people are not only killing; they’re killing and mutilating bodies." 42 00:03:29.000 --> 00:03:34.069 U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations Samantha Power was in Central African Republic Thursday 43 00:03:34.069 --> 00:03:37.150 to meet with the country’s leaders and condemn the killings. 44 00:03:37.150 --> 00:03:43.230 Samantha Power: "Obviously, the Central African Republic does not have in place right now, 45 00:03:43.230 --> 00:03:50.230 or has not yet pursued, the kinds of investigations and the kind of accountability that is needed, 46 00:03:50.480 --> 00:03:57.209 but we stressed that those responsible for atrocities must be held accountable. That 47 00:03:57.209 --> 00:04:03.599 is a very important element of preventing future violence and cycles of violence." 48 00:04:03.599 --> 00:04:09.319 The United Nations says violence in South Sudan has forced 34,000 people to seek refuge 49 00:04:09.319 --> 00:04:14.050 at its bases across the country, including in the capital Juba and the flashpoint town 50 00:04:14.050 --> 00:04:20.180 of Bor. Violence erupted Sunday when President Salva Kiir accused his former vice president 51 00:04:20.180 --> 00:04:25.340 of mounting a coup. On Thursday, three U.N. peacekeepers from India were killed in an 52 00:04:25.340 --> 00:04:31.460 attack on a U.N. compound. Deputy U.N. Secretary-General Jan Eliasson condemned the attack. 53 00:04:31.460 --> 00:04:35.330 Jan Eliasson: "I’ll tell you how deeply concerned the secretary-general and I and 54 00:04:35.330 --> 00:04:41.820 our colleagues are about the current situation in South Sudan. Our base in Akobo, Jonglei 55 00:04:41.820 --> 00:04:47.560 state, was attacked, and we have reports that lives are lost. We don’t have the details 56 00:04:47.560 --> 00:04:54.560 of that yet. And, of course, the secretary and I both condemn this attack in the strongest 57 00:04:54.850 --> 00:04:56.480 terms." 58 00:04:56.480 --> 00:05:01.040 President Obama announced this week he has sent 45 U.S. troops to South Sudan to protect 59 00:05:01.040 --> 00:05:03.540 U.S. citizens and property. 60 00:05:03.540 --> 00:05:08.690 Egypt’s military-backed government is continuing its crackdown on activists involved in the 61 00:05:08.690 --> 00:05:13.530 2011 uprising against Hosni Mubarak. Early Thursday, six people were arrested in a raid 62 00:05:13.530 --> 00:05:18.650 on an activist group that supports labor rights. Hours after the raid, a court acquitted Mubarak’s 63 00:05:18.650 --> 00:05:22.930 two sons and his last prime minister of corruption charges. 64 00:05:22.930 --> 00:05:28.630 Uganda’s parliament has passed an anti-gay bill that imposes a sentence of life in prison 65 00:05:28.630 --> 00:05:33.770 for repeated homosexual acts. It also makes it a crime not to report LGBT people. The 66 00:05:33.770 --> 00:05:40.770 bill, which was first proposed in 2009, has sparked global condemnation but received support 67 00:05:41.660 --> 00:05:44.000 from evangelicals in the United States. 68 00:05:44.000 --> 00:05:48.940 Meanwhile, India’s government has asked the Supreme Court to review its decision reinstating 69 00:05:48.940 --> 00:05:54.240 a ban on homosexual sex, saying it violates "the principle of equality." 70 00:05:54.240 --> 00:05:58.760 In the United States, New Mexico has become the latest state to legalize marriage equality 71 00:05:58.760 --> 00:06:04.530 after its highest court ruled that denying same-sex marriage licenses is unconstitutional. 72 00:06:04.530 --> 00:06:10.100 New Mexico is the 17th state, along with Washington, D.C., to legalize same-sex marriage. The ruling 73 00:06:10.100 --> 00:06:13.229 takes effect immediately. 74 00:06:13.229 --> 00:06:17.919 In Pennsylvania, officials with the United Methodist Church have defrocked a pastor who 75 00:06:17.919 --> 00:06:23.419 officiated at his son’s marriage to another man. Frank Schaefer had told officials he 76 00:06:23.419 --> 00:06:28.150 could not uphold church teachings that he viewed as biased. He responded to Thursday’s 77 00:06:28.150 --> 00:06:29.639 decision at a news conference. 78 00:06:29.639 --> 00:06:36.639 Rev. Frank Schaefer: "As you can tell, I’m visibly shaken. I guess when I went into the 79 00:06:38.389 --> 00:06:43.710 hearing this morning with the Board of Ordained Ministry, I was hopeful that it wouldn’t 80 00:06:43.710 --> 00:06:50.680 come to what it has come to: my defrockment. I am a very positive person, I’m an optimist. 81 00:06:50.680 --> 00:06:56.330 You could say I always look at the glass half full. And I said to myself, you know, I just 82 00:06:56.330 --> 00:07:03.330 can’t see them take my credentials. I mean, what I did was an act of love for my son. 83 00:07:06.270 --> 00:07:09.020 And they did anyhow." 84 00:07:09.020 --> 00:07:13.979 The Senate has passed a sweeping Pentagon bill that keeps military sexual assault cases 85 00:07:13.979 --> 00:07:19.500 within the chain of command while adding some new protections for survivors. It also raises 86 00:07:19.500 --> 00:07:24.970 military pay by 1 percent and bars the transfer of Guantánamo prisoners to the United States. 87 00:07:24.970 --> 00:07:29.210 Democratic Majority Leader Harry Reid vowed the Senate will take up the issue of unemployment 88 00:07:29.210 --> 00:07:34.710 benefits in early January when it returns from break; jobless payments will expire for 89 00:07:34.710 --> 00:07:38.979 1.3 million people just three days after Christmas. 90 00:07:38.979 --> 00:07:44.669 A former BP engineer has been convicted of obstruction of justice for deleting text messages 91 00:07:44.669 --> 00:07:50.850 about the 2010 oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico. Kurt Mix could face up to 20 years in prison. 92 00:07:50.850 --> 00:07:55.330 He is the first person to be tried for the incident, which killed 11 workers and caused 93 00:07:55.330 --> 00:08:00.319 one of the worst environmental disasters in U.S. history. A new government study has linked 94 00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:05.669 the disaster to lung disease, hormonal problems and other illnesses among dolphins in the 95 00:08:05.669 --> 00:08:08.069 region, many of whom are dying. 96 00:08:08.069 --> 00:08:13.319 In Belgium, protesters opposed to austerity and so-called free trade shut down traffic 97 00:08:13.319 --> 00:08:19.610 in parts of Brussels on the opening day of the European Union summit Thursday. Some 10,000 98 00:08:19.610 --> 00:08:25.180 protesters took to the streets to oppose secretive negotiations for a massive trade deal between 99 00:08:25.180 --> 00:08:29.960 the United States and Europe, which they say would favor corporations and undermine protections, 100 00:08:29.960 --> 00:08:35.649 from food safety to workers’ rights. Pascoe Sabido of the Corporate Europe Observatory 101 00:08:35.649 --> 00:08:37.199 spoke at Thursday’s action. 102 00:08:37.199 --> 00:08:42.339 Pascoe Sabido: "So, we’re here today to block the EU summit, where our so-called leaders 103 00:08:42.339 --> 00:08:47.560 are meeting, to make sure that two treaties — the Transatlantic Trade and Investment 104 00:08:47.560 --> 00:08:52.510 Partnership, the free trade deal with the U.S., as well as the TSCG, which is basically 105 00:08:52.510 --> 00:08:56.920 a treaty of austerity — make sure they don’t go forward and to make sure that actually 106 00:08:56.920 --> 00:09:03.160 our voices here in the streets, across society, are not just listened to, but make sure we’re 107 00:09:03.160 --> 00:09:06.890 not complicit in this. So we’re here to say, 'No, this will not happen, and enough 108 00:09:06.890 --> 00:09:11.560 is enough.' And we’re going to try and build a Europe from below." 109 00:09:11.560 --> 00:09:18.250 The Obama administration says it deported 369,000 immigrants during the past fiscal 110 00:09:18.250 --> 00:09:23.520 year. That’s a 10 percent decrease over last year’s record of 410,000, marking the 111 00:09:23.520 --> 00:09:28.950 first time deportations have dropped during Obama’s tenure. In a statement, Marisa Franco 112 00:09:28.950 --> 00:09:34.130 of the National Day Laborer Organizing Network said, "The biggest fear of immigrant families 113 00:09:34.130 --> 00:09:39.100 is becoming a number in the statistics released today. No matter what direction the numbers 114 00:09:39.100 --> 00:09:44.510 go in, the fear entrenched in people’s lives won’t be removed until the threat is eliminated 115 00:09:44.510 --> 00:09:49.690 and that can only be done by a president who recognizes the error of his ways and reverses 116 00:09:49.690 --> 00:09:53.290 course on the dragnet he’s built." 117 00:09:53.290 --> 00:09:57.110 And those are some of the headlines this is Democracy Now, Democracynow.org, the War and 118 00:09:57.110 --> 00:10:02.430 Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 119 00:10:02.430 --> 00:10:08.420 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We begin today in Russia, where President Vladimir Putin has signed 120 00:10:08.420 --> 00:10:13.970 a decree pardoning the country’s former richest man. Amnesty International had declared 121 00:10:13.970 --> 00:10:20.070 Mikhail Khodorkovsky a prisoner of conscience. He spent more than a decade behind bars after 122 00:10:20.070 --> 00:10:22.850 he fell into disfavor with Putin. 123 00:10:22.850 --> 00:10:27.240 The release comes as the Russian Parliament voted Wednesday to approve a mass amnesty 124 00:10:27.240 --> 00:10:34.240 for thousands more prisoners. Up to 22,000 are set to be eventually freed under an initiative 125 00:10:34.260 --> 00:10:40.820 Putin says is meant to mark the 20th anniversary of the passage of Russia’s post-Soviet constitution. 126 00:10:40.820 --> 00:10:47.310 Critics say Putin also hopes to deflect international criticism of his human rights crackdown ahead 127 00:10:47.310 --> 00:10:50.149 of the 2014 Sochi Winter Games. 128 00:10:50.149 --> 00:10:54.730 AMY GOODMAN: Among the tens of thousands set to be released are members of the punk group 129 00:10:54.730 --> 00:10:59.470 Pussy Riot, as well as the Greenpeace Arctic 30, who were arrested in September after trying 130 00:10:59.470 --> 00:11:05.070 to stop Russian oil drilling in the Arctic. After the vote, Arctic 30 member Frank Hewetson 131 00:11:05.070 --> 00:11:08.010 said the fate of the Arctic remains unchanged. 132 00:11:08.010 --> 00:11:12.649 FRANK HEWETSON: We’re very happy. We just hope it doesn’t take too long for us to 133 00:11:12.649 --> 00:11:18.640 actually have our passports stamped with the correct visa and returned back to our countries. 134 00:11:18.640 --> 00:11:22.430 We might have been given amnesty today, but there’s no amnesty for the Arctic. These 135 00:11:22.430 --> 00:11:24.240 companies need to be stopped. 136 00:11:24.240 --> 00:11:29.240 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Meanwhile, Russian President Vladimir Putin suggested the Greenpeace activists 137 00:11:29.240 --> 00:11:34.510 may have been acting at the behest of a foreign country in an attempt to undermine Russia’s 138 00:11:34.510 --> 00:11:38.810 development of Arctic energy resources. Putin did not name the country. 139 00:11:38.810 --> 00:11:45.810 PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN: [translated] As for the fact that they are covered by amnesty—and 140 00:11:45.959 --> 00:11:50.620 as far as I know, they are covered by it—we are not doing it for them. But if they are 141 00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:57.620 covered, that’s good. I think what’s happened should be a lesson and that we should both, 142 00:12:01.060 --> 00:12:06.180 I hope—Greenpeace, as well—turn to positive work in order to make noise. But in order 143 00:12:06.180 --> 00:12:12.740 to minimize environmental risks, if such risks appear, we are ready for such joint work, 144 00:12:12.740 --> 00:12:14.240 including work with Greenpeace. 145 00:12:14.240 --> 00:12:20.160 AMY GOODMAN: To talk more about the amnesty, we go to Saint Petersburg, Russia, where we’re 146 00:12:20.160 --> 00:12:25.519 joined by two of the Arctic 30 activists. Peter Willcox was the captain of the Arctic 147 00:12:25.519 --> 00:12:31.850 Sunrise and has worked with Greenpeace for decades. Dimitri Litvinov, who is a Russian-born 148 00:12:31.850 --> 00:12:36.010 U.S. and Swedish citizen, has worked with Greenpeace since 1989. 149 00:12:36.010 --> 00:12:40.850 We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Let’s start with Peter Willcox. Your response to 150 00:12:40.850 --> 00:12:43.370 the amnesty that you all have been granted? 151 00:12:43.370 --> 00:12:48.149 PETER WILLCOX: Well, we’re glad it happened, but we’re still wondering why we need to 152 00:12:48.149 --> 00:12:52.870 be amnestied for something we didn’t do. According to the World Court, we were arrested 153 00:12:52.870 --> 00:12:58.480 illegally on the high seas, illegally brought into Russia and illegally detained. So we 154 00:12:58.480 --> 00:13:02.709 don’t feel, A, that we have anything to apologize for or, B, that we need amnesty 155 00:13:02.709 --> 00:13:03.480 for. 156 00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:09.990 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And this suggestion by President Putin that you are acting at the behest of 157 00:13:09.990 --> 00:13:11.680 some foreign government? 158 00:13:11.680 --> 00:13:18.680 PETER WILLCOX: That just seems like such a silly and stupid claim that I really don’t 159 00:13:18.750 --> 00:13:24.060 need to respond to it. Greenpeace’ books are open, our fundraising. We don’t even 160 00:13:24.060 --> 00:13:30.290 accept corporate or government sponsorships of any kind. So such a claim is just ludicrous. 161 00:13:30.290 --> 00:13:35.980 AMY GOODMAN: Dmitri Litvinov, can you talk about what it is that you did, that you were 162 00:13:35.980 --> 00:13:42.769 first charged for? And then, how long were you held for before you were granted bail, 163 00:13:42.769 --> 00:13:45.360 and then, now, of course, the amnesty decision? 164 00:13:45.360 --> 00:13:50.810 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Well, what we did and what we were charged for are two completely different 165 00:13:50.810 --> 00:13:57.810 things. We went out to the Russian Arctic in order to shine the light on the destructive 166 00:13:58.029 --> 00:14:03.149 activities that are being carried out there by the Russian and foreign oil companies. 167 00:14:03.149 --> 00:14:08.380 There is a rush for the Arctic shelf right now, that has now become navigable due to 168 00:14:08.380 --> 00:14:14.230 climate change, and oil companies are rushing in there in order to start drilling for oil. 169 00:14:14.230 --> 00:14:20.100 This is in an area which has extreme meteorological conditions and which has very difficult navigational 170 00:14:20.100 --> 00:14:25.470 conditions, and where there’s practically no infrastructure for cleanup in case of—or, 171 00:14:25.470 --> 00:14:31.779 rather, I should say, when an oil spill would occur. And, well, we saw—I heard earlier 172 00:14:31.779 --> 00:14:35.339 today you were speaking about the Gulf of Mexico. We saw what happened in the Gulf of 173 00:14:35.339 --> 00:14:40.730 Mexico, where even under the most favorable conditions we saw very, very difficult environmental 174 00:14:40.730 --> 00:14:45.970 results. If such a spill were to occur in the Arctic, it would be absolutely catastrophic. 175 00:14:45.970 --> 00:14:51.529 So, the purpose of us sending a ship and going there earlier this year was in order to bring 176 00:14:51.529 --> 00:14:56.779 attention to the problem and to carry out peaceful, nonviolent protest, as we have been 177 00:14:56.779 --> 00:15:00.600 doing all around the Arctic region. We have protested off of Greenland, off of Norway, 178 00:15:00.600 --> 00:15:06.649 off of Alaska, etc. It’s not a Russian problem; it’s unfortunately a global problem. 179 00:15:06.649 --> 00:15:10.139 The charges that were brought against us, to start with, were—the first one was that 180 00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:17.139 of piracy. We were accused of an armed takeover of a ship for personal gain. Each one of the 181 00:15:18.200 --> 00:15:22.839 elements of that sentence had nothing to do with what we did. It was no takeover. There 182 00:15:22.839 --> 00:15:29.839 was no ship. And there was certainly no personal gain involved. We have spent, altogether, 183 00:15:30.980 --> 00:15:37.980 two months, one of us actually a bit longer, in detention first in a prison, in a jail 184 00:15:38.389 --> 00:15:45.389 in Murmansk, in the north of Russia, and then subsequently two weeks in Saint Petersburg. 185 00:15:46.519 --> 00:15:51.949 We’ve been released a little bit or over three weeks ago. And since then, we’ve been 186 00:15:51.949 --> 00:15:58.220 kept—well, I should say, in a much bigger and more comfortable cell: We’re still detained 187 00:15:58.220 --> 00:16:02.260 in Russia, but we’re at least allowed to be staying in a hotel and to talk to each 188 00:16:02.260 --> 00:16:02.740 other. 189 00:16:02.740 --> 00:16:08.709 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Dimitri, I wanted to ask you—at the time you were jailed, your father wrote 190 00:16:08.709 --> 00:16:14.680 an op-ed piece in The Washington Post urging your release. And the piece was titled "My 191 00:16:14.680 --> 00:16:19.589 Son, Facing Russian Prison for a Peaceful Protest." In it, he wrote that "Dima has the 192 00:16:19.589 --> 00:16:25.029 sad distinction of possibly becoming the third generation of political prisoners in our family." 193 00:16:25.029 --> 00:16:32.029 Can you tell us something about the history of your family and these run-ins with authorities 194 00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:35.370 because of its political involvement? 195 00:16:35.370 --> 00:16:39.820 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Sure. I think, actually, Dad got it a little bit wrong. I think, actually, 196 00:16:39.820 --> 00:16:45.910 it’s the fourth generation, if we’re going to really count. My great-grandfather was 197 00:16:45.910 --> 00:16:50.760 one of the leading communists before the revolution, and so he opposed the tsar’s regime and 198 00:16:50.760 --> 00:16:57.760 ended up being prosecuted for that. He subsequently became one of the closest collaborators of 199 00:16:58.510 --> 00:17:04.949 Stalin and Lenin, was actually a foreign minister under Stalin. My grandfather was accused for 200 00:17:04.949 --> 00:17:11.240 a political crime and spent years and years in prison during Stalin’s time. His fate 201 00:17:11.240 --> 00:17:18.240 was described in a number of books by Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn. And then my father went on a 202 00:17:18.329 --> 00:17:24.359 protest demonstration against the invasion of Czechoslovakia by the Soviet tanks in 1968, 203 00:17:24.359 --> 00:17:30.229 together with six other people. The seven people got fairly hard sentences. My father 204 00:17:30.229 --> 00:17:35.440 spent five years in Siberia. The whole family went there. I went to school there. My sister 205 00:17:35.440 --> 00:17:40.989 was born there. In fact, the first time that I was ever arrested for a Greenpeace action 206 00:17:40.989 --> 00:17:44.679 in Russia, my grandfather gave an interview where he was asked, "What do you think about 207 00:17:44.679 --> 00:17:50.559 your grandson going—getting arrested, and by the KGB at that point?" And he said, "Well, 208 00:17:50.559 --> 00:17:54.169 it’s the third generation going to prison for a good thing." 209 00:17:54.169 --> 00:18:01.169 AMY GOODMAN: Peter Willcox, can you share your history? You go way back to the first 210 00:18:01.960 --> 00:18:05.809 Greenpeace ship, the Rainbow Warrior. Talk about what happened there. 211 00:18:05.809 --> 00:18:11.039 PETER WILLCOX: Well, like Dima, I’m sort of a third-generation activist. My grandparents 212 00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:16.690 and mother were all before the House Un-American Activities Committee. My grandfather lost 213 00:18:16.690 --> 00:18:23.080 his company because of his leading a peace delegation to China in 1952. And I started 214 00:18:23.080 --> 00:18:29.340 with Greenpeace—I started working on boats for the environment in 1973. I joined Greenpeace 215 00:18:29.340 --> 00:18:35.109 in ’81 and, yes, was on the first Rainbow Warrior when it was blown up by the French 216 00:18:35.109 --> 00:18:37.239 in Auckland, New Zealand, in 1985. 217 00:18:37.239 --> 00:18:42.330 AMY GOODMAN: Just tell us briefly, for people who don’t know that history—talk about 218 00:18:42.330 --> 00:18:44.629 what French intelligence did. 219 00:18:44.629 --> 00:18:51.629 PETER WILLCOX: Well, the French intelligence service was ordered by Mitterand to stop Greenpeace 220 00:18:51.999 --> 00:18:58.999 from going to French Polynesia and protesting the nuclear testing issues there. We had just 221 00:18:59.440 --> 00:19:04.340 come from the U.S. Marshall Islands, where, thanks to the U.S. testing program, we had 222 00:19:04.340 --> 00:19:11.029 had to move a group of about 350 islanders from their purposely contaminated island to 223 00:19:11.029 --> 00:19:18.029 a slightly safer one. We went to New Zealand to prepare to go to French Polynesia, and 224 00:19:18.129 --> 00:19:24.759 the French decided to anticipate us. The first bomb blew a six-by-seven-foot hole in side 225 00:19:24.759 --> 00:19:31.759 of the hull. The second bomb that went off about 45 seconds later trapped our photographer, 226 00:19:32.019 --> 00:19:38.489 Fernando Pereira, in his cabin and killed him. He was the only crew member with two 227 00:19:38.489 --> 00:19:43.700 children, and his murder certainly ripped a hole in their lives that really has never 228 00:19:43.700 --> 00:19:44.940 been repaired. 229 00:19:44.940 --> 00:19:50.489 AMY GOODMAN: And then talk about what happened to you. While you’ve been granted amnesty, 230 00:19:50.489 --> 00:19:56.289 you were jailed. Can—starting with Peter, can you both describe your time in jail and 231 00:19:56.289 --> 00:19:58.019 what—where you go from here? 232 00:19:58.019 --> 00:20:05.019 PETER WILLCOX: Well, when you’re held in Russia, under investigation for a crime, it’s 233 00:20:05.239 --> 00:20:10.419 called "isolation." And you’re in one cell 23 hours a day. You supposedly have about 234 00:20:10.419 --> 00:20:15.619 an hour in an exercise cell, which is only slightly bigger than the cell you were first 235 00:20:15.619 --> 00:20:22.619 kept in. And you’re really isolated from all your family, colleagues. It was a month 236 00:20:23.359 --> 00:20:27.940 before I was able to speak to my wife. It was almost a month before I was able to speak 237 00:20:27.940 --> 00:20:32.169 to my lawyer. Yeah, you’re in isolation. 238 00:20:32.169 --> 00:20:39.169 DIMITRI LITVINOV: I can add to that. I mean, I think that, absolutely, isolation is the 239 00:20:40.639 --> 00:20:47.639 worst—one of the worst elements of being held in the prison. I mean, the physical conditions 240 00:20:47.669 --> 00:20:53.679 were not the main part of the problem. Oh, sure, it was crap food and, you know, very 241 00:20:53.679 --> 00:20:59.919 cold at night, and you only got 15 minutes of shower per week. But that—that you can 242 00:20:59.919 --> 00:21:03.849 live with. You know, we can live in fairly tough field conditions. The worst thing is 243 00:21:03.849 --> 00:21:09.559 the psychological pressure. I think what Peter is talking about, this isolation, was one 244 00:21:09.559 --> 00:21:16.519 of the—one of these very strong elements of pressure that made life very hard. 245 00:21:16.519 --> 00:21:22.809 Another one is this uncertainty. You don’t know what’s coming. You don’t know how 246 00:21:22.809 --> 00:21:25.700 long you’re going to be sitting there. You don’t know how it will result. And on one 247 00:21:25.700 --> 00:21:31.179 hand, the rational part of your mind says, "Well, this is impossible. Even in Putin’s 248 00:21:31.179 --> 00:21:36.389 Russia, they cannot lock 30 people for something they didn’t do for 10 to 15 years," which 249 00:21:36.389 --> 00:21:40.389 is what the first sentence was that we were looking at, you know, 19 of them foreigners. 250 00:21:40.389 --> 00:21:43.729 It’s just not acceptable. It’s not going to happen. But then you’re— 251 00:21:43.729 --> 00:21:44.529 PETER WILLCOX: But then you’re in jail. 252 00:21:44.529 --> 00:21:45.429 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Then you’re in jail. 253 00:21:45.429 --> 00:21:48.619 PETER WILLCOX: We told ourselves that the first day, and that night we were in jail. 254 00:21:48.619 --> 00:21:51.779 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Exactly. And then, you know—and you go to an investigation, and you see—and 255 00:21:51.779 --> 00:21:56.599 you see these very serious men in very serious uniforms and very—telling you absolutely 256 00:21:56.599 --> 00:21:58.849 seriously, "We are convinced that you’re pirates." 257 00:21:58.849 --> 00:22:02.649 PETER WILLCOX: The most—the most bizarre evidence. They claimed that we weren’t really 258 00:22:02.649 --> 00:22:07.769 environmentalists. They claimed that we led an armed attack on the rig. I mean, the first 259 00:22:07.769 --> 00:22:12.519 rule about a Greenpeace demonstration is, is that it’s nonviolent. The second rule 260 00:22:12.519 --> 00:22:19.519 is that there’s absolutely no property damage to the object of the action or demonstration. 261 00:22:19.820 --> 00:22:24.679 And you do these things, and these are the kinds of things that prevent a reasonable 262 00:22:24.679 --> 00:22:30.669 prosecutor from even thinking of the word "piracy." So, on one hand, it seems so absurd; 263 00:22:30.669 --> 00:22:33.080 on the other hand, you’re sitting in detention, you’re sitting in jail. 264 00:22:33.080 --> 00:22:34.190 DIMITRI LITVINOV: And there you are. 265 00:22:34.190 --> 00:22:35.940 PETER WILLCOX: And you’re facing 10 to 15 years. 266 00:22:35.940 --> 00:22:39.109 DIMITRI LITVINOV: And you don’t know when it’s going to end. So that’s the second. 267 00:22:39.109 --> 00:22:42.690 And the last thing, I think, kind of very much along those lines, is just this feeling 268 00:22:42.690 --> 00:22:49.419 of this is so unfair, this is so unjust, you know? We didn’t do anything wrong that is 269 00:22:49.419 --> 00:22:52.679 anywhere near the kind of response that we were getting. And— 270 00:22:52.679 --> 00:22:55.129 PETER WILLCOX: We didn’t do anything we hadn’t done the year before. 271 00:22:55.129 --> 00:23:01.029 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Exactly. So, I mean, we met a lot of people in prison, our cellmates. 272 00:23:01.029 --> 00:23:06.580 And some of them—most of them were in there for a crime, or at least reasonably suspected 273 00:23:06.580 --> 00:23:12.059 for a crime. And these are nice enough fellows, and, you know, some of them were—you know, 274 00:23:12.059 --> 00:23:16.389 probably should have been treated more easily than they were, or whatever, but there was 275 00:23:16.389 --> 00:23:22.019 a crime committed. So there was a reason why they were locked up. For the 30 of us, it 276 00:23:22.019 --> 00:23:26.899 was this feeling that they have no reason, it’s so unfair. So I think those three pieces 277 00:23:26.899 --> 00:23:30.229 of psychological pressure, for me, at least, was the hardest thing to deal with: the isolation, 278 00:23:30.229 --> 00:23:31.919 the uncertainty and the unfairness. 279 00:23:31.919 --> 00:23:35.809 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Dimitri, I wanted to ask you about this decision of the Russian 280 00:23:35.809 --> 00:23:42.809 government, as many as 20,000 people amnestied. Do you see this as any kind of a major shift 281 00:23:44.299 --> 00:23:49.509 in the increasing authoritarianism of the Putin government, or is this more a public 282 00:23:49.509 --> 00:23:55.409 relations ploy in the run-up to the Winter Games, the Winter Olympics? 283 00:23:55.409 --> 00:24:00.349 DIMITRI LITVINOV: I don’t claim to be any sort of political analyst, Juan, so I’m 284 00:24:00.349 --> 00:24:06.109 not even going to try to answer that question. I’m just very happy that we get to go home 285 00:24:06.109 --> 00:24:11.639 soon, even though there is this sour aftertaste, as Peter said, that, you know, we shouldn’t 286 00:24:11.639 --> 00:24:15.179 have been arrested, to start with. And we should not be given an amnesty; we should 287 00:24:15.179 --> 00:24:17.149 be given an apology and a medal, in my opinion. 288 00:24:17.149 --> 00:24:20.359 PETER WILLCOX: And we’re still most concerned about the fate of our four Russian colleagues— 289 00:24:20.359 --> 00:24:20.659 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Indeed. 290 00:24:20.659 --> 00:24:24.190 PETER WILLCOX: —that have to continue to live here, and now they may have criminal 291 00:24:24.190 --> 00:24:27.200 records hanging over their heads. So that’s something that worries us a lot. 292 00:24:27.200 --> 00:24:32.039 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Absolutely. And as far as your question is concerned, well, as far as 293 00:24:32.039 --> 00:24:38.190 I understand, quite a number of those prisoners are—that are to be released, are indeed 294 00:24:38.190 --> 00:24:44.179 what will be qualified and is qualified as political prisoners. But then there are also 295 00:24:44.179 --> 00:24:51.179 just people who have been arrested for a violent crime or some other type of crime, and this 296 00:24:52.019 --> 00:24:56.469 is an amnesty that is associated, I understand, with the 20th anniversary of Russian constitution, 297 00:24:56.469 --> 00:25:02.840 some sort of magnanimous act. And, look, after those two months in prison, if peoples—if 298 00:25:02.840 --> 00:25:07.289 people are being released, you know, from—I’m glad for them. You know, no matter what crime 299 00:25:07.289 --> 00:25:11.259 they have committed, for them personally, I am glad that they don’t have to be sitting 300 00:25:11.259 --> 00:25:13.009 in those conditions that we were sitting in. 301 00:25:13.009 --> 00:25:17.109 AMY GOODMAN: When Democracy Now! was in Warsaw last month to cover the U.N. climate summit, 302 00:25:17.109 --> 00:25:22.969 I had a chance to sit down with Greenpeace Executive Director Kumi Naidoo, Kumi who was 303 00:25:22.969 --> 00:25:27.979 involved with last year’s action. You were pointing out, Peter, they did not get arrested. 304 00:25:27.979 --> 00:25:31.330 Maybe they didn’t get arrested because he’s the executive director involved with trying 305 00:25:31.330 --> 00:25:37.859 to stop Arctic drilling by Gazprom. He talked about how energy companies should respond 306 00:25:37.859 --> 00:25:39.590 to global warming concerns. 307 00:25:39.590 --> 00:25:45.849 KUMI NAIDOO: We would say to all energy company leaders, right, from Gazprom to Shell to ExxonMobil 308 00:25:45.849 --> 00:25:52.590 and all the rest, as Greenpeace, when we look at you, we see you as an energy company. As 309 00:25:52.590 --> 00:25:58.869 an energy company, we cannot blame you, 20 years ago or, say, even 15 years ago, for 310 00:25:58.869 --> 00:26:05.340 building energy based on oil, coal and gas. However, now, you need to understand that 311 00:26:05.340 --> 00:26:11.179 the scientific consensus is completely clear, and even if the science was not clear, the 312 00:26:11.179 --> 00:26:16.789 last decade has seen more than a 10 percent increase in extreme weather events, the very 313 00:26:16.789 --> 00:26:21.479 events that the scientists say that that’s how climate change will be looking at. So 314 00:26:21.479 --> 00:26:27.619 now you do not have an excuse. The facts are before you. And you need to understand that 315 00:26:27.619 --> 00:26:33.700 every cent that you invest in new projects is an investment in the death of our children 316 00:26:33.700 --> 00:26:35.679 and their children and future generations. 317 00:26:35.679 --> 00:26:40.419 AMY GOODMAN: That’s Kumi Naidoo, Greenpeace executive director. Let’s end with Peter 318 00:26:40.419 --> 00:26:44.659 Willcox, captain of the Greenpeace Arctic Sunrise. Where do you go from here? 319 00:26:44.659 --> 00:26:50.999 PETER WILLCOX: Well, I guess the biggest feeling is, is that we don’t stop. For me, stopping 320 00:26:50.999 --> 00:26:56.309 means turning over the planet to the oil companies, and I’m not nearly willing to do that. When 321 00:26:56.309 --> 00:27:00.340 I started working for environmental groups 40 years ago, I thought this was going to 322 00:27:00.340 --> 00:27:07.080 be a fairly easy problem to solve. I was on the Hudson River working on Pete Seeger’s 323 00:27:07.080 --> 00:27:14.080 boat. Now, as Kumi pointed out, I am scared for the future of my kids. And stopping, quitting, 324 00:27:15.659 --> 00:27:18.789 is not—doesn’t even come close to being an option. 325 00:27:18.789 --> 00:27:20.700 AMY GOODMAN: And Dimitri Litvinov? 326 00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:26.099 DIMITRI LITVINOV: Well, I mean, I can only echo what Peter said. I mean, this—the fight 327 00:27:26.099 --> 00:27:29.899 is going to continue. We have no choice, if we’re going to survive. 328 00:27:29.899 --> 00:27:33.739 AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you both for being with us. Dimitri Litvinov is one of 329 00:27:33.739 --> 00:27:39.969 the Arctic 30 activists. Peter Willcox is captain of the Greenpeace Arctic Sunrise ship. 330 00:27:39.969 --> 00:27:46.969 Today, Russia granted amnesty to 20,000 people, among them the Arctic 30, 28 Greenpeace activists 331 00:27:47.139 --> 00:27:50.769 and two journalists who were covering them, among many others. 332 00:27:50.769 --> 00:27:56.909 When we come back, we stick with the issue of drilling, but this time in the Amazon, 333 00:27:56.909 --> 00:28:01.279 Amazon justice. According Canada rules, Ecuadorean farmers and fishermen can try to seize the 334 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:07.080 assets of oil giant Chevron based on a 2011 decision that found the company liable for 335 00:28:07.080 --> 00:28:14.080 billions for oil pollution. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back 336 00:28:53.259 --> 00:29:00.259 in 337 00:29:08.429 --> 00:29:15.429 a minute. 338 00:29:21.369 --> 00:29:28.369 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We turn now to major developments in the landmark lawsuit filed by a group of 339 00:29:47.399 --> 00:29:52.960 Ecuadorean farmers and fishermen against Chevron, the world’s third-largest oil company. In 340 00:29:52.960 --> 00:29:58.239 2011, an Ecuadorean court found Chevron liable for nearly three decades of soil and water 341 00:29:58.239 --> 00:30:02.589 pollution near oil wells, and said it had ruined the health and livelihoods of people 342 00:30:02.589 --> 00:30:08.129 living in nearby areas of the Amazon rainforest. Since then, the victims have been trying to 343 00:30:08.129 --> 00:30:11.379 collect some $18 billion in environmental damages. 344 00:30:11.379 --> 00:30:15.999 AMY GOODMAN: But Chevron has vowed never to comply with the judgment. In a case now before 345 00:30:15.999 --> 00:30:20.859 a federal court in New York, Chevron argues the main American lawyer in the case, Steve 346 00:30:20.859 --> 00:30:25.979 Donziger, won the verdict after he engaged in judicial coercion, fabrication of evidence, 347 00:30:25.979 --> 00:30:30.379 and bribery. The court is expected to rule in the coming months. Han Shan, working with 348 00:30:30.379 --> 00:30:35.259 the victims, spoke as Ecuadorean villagers and their supporters rallied across from the 349 00:30:35.259 --> 00:30:37.169 courthouse in New York in October. 350 00:30:37.169 --> 00:30:42.989 HAN SHAN: Nearly every single person who’s been named as a defendant in Chevron’s retaliatory 351 00:30:42.989 --> 00:30:48.789 RICO suit has loved ones, has family members who have died, who have contracted cancer, 352 00:30:48.789 --> 00:30:54.909 who have suffered from birth defects and other oil-related illness due to Chevron’s contamination. 353 00:30:54.909 --> 00:30:58.669 This lawsuit essentially rubs salt in their wounds. 354 00:30:58.669 --> 00:31:03.080 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, as victims of Chevron fight this case in the United States, they’ve 355 00:31:03.080 --> 00:31:07.669 also tried to move forward on collecting damages from the company in Canada. Now the courts 356 00:31:07.669 --> 00:31:14.149 there have given the green light for the rainforest residents to attempt to seize Chevron’s 357 00:31:14.149 --> 00:31:14.700 Canadian assets. 358 00:31:14.700 --> 00:31:19.019 AMY GOODMAN: This week, a panel of judges noted a Chevron spokesman had previously said, 359 00:31:19.019 --> 00:31:22.419 quote, "We’re going to fight this until hell freezes over. And then we’ll fight 360 00:31:22.419 --> 00:31:27.659 it out on the ice." In response, the judges wrote, quote, "After all these years, the 361 00:31:27.659 --> 00:31:31.909 Ecuadorean plaintiffs deserve to have recognition and enforcement of the Ecuadorean judgment 362 00:31:31.909 --> 00:31:37.639 heard on the merits in an appropriate jurisdiction. At this juncture, Ontario is that jurisdiction." 363 00:31:37.639 --> 00:31:41.519 Well, for more, we go to Paul Barrett, assistant managing editor and senior writer at Bloomberg 364 00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:45.659 Businessweek. He’s been following all this closely, and his book about the Chevron oil 365 00:31:45.659 --> 00:31:48.999 pollution case in Ecuador is due out next year. 366 00:31:48.999 --> 00:31:52.099 Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Paul. Talk about the significance of this decision. 367 00:31:52.099 --> 00:31:57.399 PAUL BARRETT: Thanks. The importance of the decision in Canada is that for the first time 368 00:31:57.399 --> 00:32:02.529 the Ecuadorean plaintiffs will be able to go before the judiciary of a third country—not 369 00:32:02.529 --> 00:32:07.489 Ecuador, not the United States—and say, "We have a legitimate judgment in Ecuador, 370 00:32:07.489 --> 00:32:11.549 multiple billions of dollars, and we believe it should be enforced. And we want you, the 371 00:32:11.549 --> 00:32:17.959 judiciary of Canada, to respect the judiciary of Ecuador and allow us to literally seize 372 00:32:17.959 --> 00:32:20.369 the operations of Chevron in this country." 373 00:32:20.369 --> 00:32:22.999 AMY GOODMAN: What assets could be seized? 374 00:32:22.999 --> 00:32:28.669 PAUL BARRETT: Well, you’re talking about refineries, Chevron’s ownership in operations, 375 00:32:28.669 --> 00:32:35.669 for example, in western Canada in the tar sands area, and bank accounts and any assets 376 00:32:36.820 --> 00:32:42.599 that could then be sold off and offset against this multibillion-dollar verdict in Ecuador. 377 00:32:42.599 --> 00:32:47.450 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Now, the verdict in Ecuador has gone up the entire chain of the court 378 00:32:47.450 --> 00:32:48.899 system in that country, right? 379 00:32:48.899 --> 00:32:50.059 PAUL BARRETT: True. 380 00:32:50.059 --> 00:32:55.929 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: What is, in essence, the main claims of Chevron about that verdict, in particular? 381 00:32:55.929 --> 00:32:59.409 PAUL BARRETT: Right. Well, that’s, of course, Juan, the other side of the story here, because 382 00:32:59.409 --> 00:33:05.190 Chevron says that while there may be victims of oil pollution in Ecuador—and, in fact, 383 00:33:05.190 --> 00:33:09.570 if you go down there and have your eyes open, you can see there is a tremendous problem 384 00:33:09.570 --> 00:33:15.309 of contamination—Chevron says, "Those are not our problem. This is not something that 385 00:33:15.309 --> 00:33:22.309 can be laid at our doorstep." And, in fact, the 2011 judgment against Chevron, the company 386 00:33:22.330 --> 00:33:27.409 says, was the product of corruption, that you had outside American lawyers cooperating 387 00:33:27.409 --> 00:33:33.580 with Ecuadorean lawyers and corrupt Ecuadorean judges to put together what amounts to a sham. 388 00:33:33.580 --> 00:33:38.429 And that’s where we have the conflict. And that’s the argument you’re going to hear 389 00:33:38.429 --> 00:33:42.950 in the Canadian courts, because while the Canadians have said, "We will hear this argument," 390 00:33:42.950 --> 00:33:46.409 they have not said, "We’re going to rule for the Ecuadoreans." They have said, "We’re 391 00:33:46.409 --> 00:33:49.169 going to give you an opportunity to make your argument." And Chevron’s argument on the 392 00:33:49.169 --> 00:33:50.830 other side is this is all a sham. 393 00:33:50.830 --> 00:33:53.619 AMY GOODMAN: Paul Barrett, quickly give us the history of Chevron— 394 00:33:53.619 --> 00:33:54.440 PAUL BARRETT: Sure. 395 00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:57.190 AMY GOODMAN: —in Ecuador, because it didn’t start as Chevron. 396 00:33:57.190 --> 00:34:01.039 PAUL BARRETT: Absolutely not. The history really begins with Texaco in the 1960s in 397 00:34:01.039 --> 00:34:07.299 Ecuador, invited into the country by the then-military government of Ecuador to exploit the oil reserves 398 00:34:07.299 --> 00:34:14.299 in the rainforest east of the Andes. And Texaco was there for 25-odd years. Texaco did what 399 00:34:16.570 --> 00:34:22.119 it was asked to do. This was not some type of by dark of night American oil company comes 400 00:34:22.119 --> 00:34:26.109 in and takes all the profits out; this was done in close cooperation with the Ecuadorean 401 00:34:26.109 --> 00:34:26.799 government. 402 00:34:26.799 --> 00:34:32.919 The big problem was that Texaco left a big mess on the ground—waste oil pools, pollution. 403 00:34:32.919 --> 00:34:38.089 They sprayed waste oil on the roads to keep dust down. And, you know, it looks like, if 404 00:34:38.089 --> 00:34:42.169 you’ve been down there, what you might imagine the Gulf Coast of the United States looked 405 00:34:42.169 --> 00:34:48.319 like in the 1920s, except with rural Ecuadorean poverty hard up against the oil operations. 406 00:34:48.319 --> 00:34:54.879 2001, Chevron takes over Texaco and inherits its legal problems, its liabilities. A lawsuit 407 00:34:54.879 --> 00:35:01.170 has been filed in 1993 on behalf of the residents, here in New York. That lawsuit was actually 408 00:35:01.170 --> 00:35:06.170 dismissed by the American courts on the assumption that the proper place for it to be played 409 00:35:06.170 --> 00:35:13.019 out was in Ecuador. The lawsuit was restarted in Ecuador in 2003, and the result of that 410 00:35:13.019 --> 00:35:17.000 lawsuit, some eight years later, was this huge victory for the Ecuadorean plaintiffs. 411 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:18.799 AMY GOODMAN: And it was to the tune of? 412 00:35:18.799 --> 00:35:25.049 PAUL BARRETT: Well, initially, it was $18 billion-plus. In upholding the verdict, as 413 00:35:25.049 --> 00:35:31.130 Juan correctly said, the top court in Ecuador actually said, "The liability is legitimate, 414 00:35:31.130 --> 00:35:34.920 Chevron must pay," but they cut the verdict in half. So at this point, the liability at 415 00:35:34.920 --> 00:35:36.700 this moment is $9.5 billion. 416 00:35:36.700 --> 00:35:43.700 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And in terms of the likelihood of—the court case that Chevron is pursuing 417 00:35:43.760 --> 00:35:44.400 here in the United States— 418 00:35:44.400 --> 00:35:44.690 PAUL BARRETT: Yes. 419 00:35:44.690 --> 00:35:47.349 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: —could you talk about that and the likelihood of success in that? 420 00:35:47.349 --> 00:35:52.160 PAUL BARRETT: Absolutely. This is—this is Chevron’s counterpunch. Chevron—the plaintiffs 421 00:35:52.160 --> 00:35:57.299 landed a big blow into Ecuador, and Chevron said, "We lost in Ecuador. We’re not going 422 00:35:57.299 --> 00:36:01.000 to pay, but we lost. We’re going to take you back to the United States, where all of 423 00:36:01.000 --> 00:36:06.339 this started, and we’re going to prove that the people on the other side are akin to gangsters." 424 00:36:06.339 --> 00:36:12.079 They used the U.S. anti-racketeering law enacted in 1970 to deal with the Mafia. 425 00:36:12.079 --> 00:36:13.190 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: So it’s a RICO suit. 426 00:36:13.190 --> 00:36:18.769 PAUL BARRETT: It’s a RICO suit, exactly. "And we are going to show that what you called 427 00:36:18.769 --> 00:36:25.720 a lawsuit was actually a conspiracy, a protection racket, a shakedown of the company." And they 428 00:36:25.720 --> 00:36:30.519 put on evidence for six weeks. I was actually there almost every day of this trial, as were 429 00:36:30.519 --> 00:36:37.140 all kinds of much more famous people, like Sting and his wife Trudie Styler and others. 430 00:36:37.140 --> 00:36:43.500 And this is now with a federal judge here in New York, and we are eagerly awaiting his 431 00:36:43.500 --> 00:36:48.539 ruling, which could come as early as January. And he’s going to say either Chevron is 432 00:36:48.539 --> 00:36:54.710 correct or Chevron is incorrect. And I think all the smart money is on his finding for 433 00:36:54.710 --> 00:36:58.619 Chevron. And I think Chevron is going to walk away from this trial with a judgment from 434 00:36:58.619 --> 00:37:05.250 a U.S. court that says that Steve Donziger and his clients were actually, basically, 435 00:37:05.250 --> 00:37:10.319 akin to criminals, who shook down this big American company. 436 00:37:10.319 --> 00:37:12.970 AMY GOODMAN: You’ve also been following BP. 437 00:37:12.970 --> 00:37:13.569 PAUL BARRETT: Yes. 438 00:37:13.569 --> 00:37:17.319 AMY GOODMAN: And I was wondering if you can talk about what’s happening in the legal 439 00:37:17.319 --> 00:37:18.829 cases with BP and what BP is doing— 440 00:37:18.829 --> 00:37:19.099 PAUL BARRETT: Right. 441 00:37:19.099 --> 00:37:21.730 AMY GOODMAN: —because it seems to be following a certain pattern. 442 00:37:21.730 --> 00:37:25.099 PAUL BARRETT: There is a pattern here throughout the oil industry, but it even goes broader 443 00:37:25.099 --> 00:37:30.700 than that. It’s throughout corporate America. A strategy is emerging on the part of major 444 00:37:30.700 --> 00:37:37.700 corporations whereby when they are hit with a big liability in court, they turn not so 445 00:37:38.010 --> 00:37:41.970 much to the merits of the case, but to the lawyers who have brought the case, and they 446 00:37:41.970 --> 00:37:45.559 try to ruin the lawyer. Now, the companies would say, "We’re doing this because the 447 00:37:45.559 --> 00:37:50.650 lawyers are all thieves and crooks." The plaintiffs’ lawyers would say otherwise. 448 00:37:50.650 --> 00:37:56.579 But in the BP case, just this last week, BP has filed a massive fraud case against a plaintiffs’ 449 00:37:56.579 --> 00:38:02.130 lawyer in Texas named Mikal Watts, who is one of the most powerful and influential mass 450 00:38:02.130 --> 00:38:07.010 tort lawyers in this country, a big supporter, as it happens, of President Obama, one of 451 00:38:07.010 --> 00:38:13.130 his main financiers. And Watts had filed tens of thousands of claims against BP in connection 452 00:38:13.130 --> 00:38:19.019 with the 2010 Gulf of Mexico oil spill. That’s all being fought out in the courts. But meanwhile, 453 00:38:19.019 --> 00:38:26.019 BP has said, "Watts is a fraud, and more than half of his 40,000 claims, those people don’t 454 00:38:27.990 --> 00:38:28.809 even exist." 455 00:38:28.809 --> 00:38:32.819 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, they seem to have, at least on the face of it, some pretty good 456 00:38:32.819 --> 00:38:38.180 evidence that he submitted Social Security numbers for people that—whose names were 457 00:38:38.180 --> 00:38:42.220 not the same names as the Social Security numbers that they represented and that many 458 00:38:42.220 --> 00:38:43.170 of them were dead and— 459 00:38:43.170 --> 00:38:48.569 PAUL BARRETT: Well, as with the Chevron case, wherever your loyalties are on the underlying 460 00:38:48.569 --> 00:38:53.460 merits—oil on the ground, oil in the water—as with the Chevron case, the companies have 461 00:38:53.460 --> 00:39:00.289 come up with very troubling evidence of plaintiffs’ lawyers cutting corners and basically using 462 00:39:00.289 --> 00:39:06.619 an ends-justify-the-means approach to trying to get—to hold the oil companies accountable. 463 00:39:06.619 --> 00:39:12.140 I mean, I think we would all agree that not—that not all ends justify any means. If you’re 464 00:39:12.140 --> 00:39:16.250 in a court of law, the evidence has to be real evidence. The plaintiffs have to be real 465 00:39:16.250 --> 00:39:16.500 people. 466 00:39:16.460 --> 00:39:20.109 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to go back to the lawyer in the case in Ecuador. 467 00:39:20.109 --> 00:39:21.250 PAUL BARRETT: Yeah. 468 00:39:21.250 --> 00:39:25.950 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: There had been some—also some problems between him and some of his 469 00:39:25.950 --> 00:39:28.380 clients, as well, since then? 470 00:39:28.380 --> 00:39:32.650 PAUL BARRETT: Oh, absolutely. This is a man who, as he’s proceeded through this case, 471 00:39:32.650 --> 00:39:37.779 has had fallings out with most of his allies and some of his clients. So there are other 472 00:39:37.779 --> 00:39:42.930 groups of Ecuadoreans who have claimed that he doesn’t represent their interests, and 473 00:39:42.930 --> 00:39:47.279 they’ve actually filed their own lawsuit against him. That’s pending here in New 474 00:39:47.279 --> 00:39:52.900 York. And meanwhile, some of his scientific advisers have disavowed their own work on 475 00:39:52.900 --> 00:39:56.720 his behalf. So this is a very troubling and confused situation. 476 00:39:56.720 --> 00:40:01.839 AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to stay with Ecuador, the Chevron case. I recently interviewed the 477 00:40:01.839 --> 00:40:06.160 Ecuadorean Foreign Minister Ricardo Patiño when he was here in New York, and asked him 478 00:40:06.160 --> 00:40:09.940 about the pollution that ChevronTexaco left behind. 479 00:40:09.940 --> 00:40:16.940 RICARDO PATIÑO: [translated] President Rafael Correa, a few days ago, went to an area where 480 00:40:21.730 --> 00:40:28.730 ChevronTexaco was operating, and the president put his hands in the toxic waste pits that 481 00:40:31.990 --> 00:40:38.990 ChevronTexaco left, and raised his oil-stained hand up to show the world how ChevronTexaco 482 00:40:41.740 --> 00:40:48.740 has destroyed the Ecuadorean Amazon and did not use the cleanup methodologies that were 483 00:40:51.640 --> 00:40:58.640 available at the time to mitigate or even avoid environmental damages. 484 00:41:00.049 --> 00:41:07.049 AMY GOODMAN: You argue that ChevronTexaco has not cleaned up the Amazon that it polluted. 485 00:41:09.150 --> 00:41:15.250 Why hasn’t the Ecuadorean government done more to clean it up over these decades that 486 00:41:15.250 --> 00:41:22.250 ChevronTexaco is gone? Wasn’t Texaco a subcontractor for the Ecuadorean—for Ecuador, Petroecuador? 487 00:41:23.309 --> 00:41:30.309 RICARDO PATIÑO: [translated] Unfortunately, the governments prior to the current government 488 00:41:30.680 --> 00:41:37.680 did not take measures to clean up Texaco’s mess. At one point, officials of Ecopetrol 489 00:41:49.339 --> 00:41:55.309 issued a document saying that Texaco had in fact cleaned up, but we know that this isn’t 490 00:41:55.309 --> 00:42:02.309 the case. That is why Ecuador has now begun to clean up the damage. But now we have to 491 00:42:07.289 --> 00:42:14.289 put that on hold, because, otherwise, the evidence of their pollution will no longer 492 00:42:17.130 --> 00:42:24.130 exist. So, the proof could disappear if we continue with the cleanup. 493 00:42:25.640 --> 00:42:29.440 AMY GOODMAN: That’s Ecuadorean Foreign Minister Ricardo Patiño. If you could respond to that? 494 00:42:29.440 --> 00:42:33.539 And also, you had an exclusive interview with the Ecuadorean ambassador to the United States. 495 00:42:33.539 --> 00:42:38.759 PAUL BARRETT: Yes. Well, I mean, you asked the Ecuadorean official, you know, one of 496 00:42:38.759 --> 00:42:43.809 the most important questions, which is, what’s the priority here? Is the priority to actually 497 00:42:43.809 --> 00:42:50.190 clean up the oil, which, after all, was being drilled and produced on behalf of your country, 498 00:42:50.190 --> 00:42:54.490 not on behalf of another country? The vast majority of the revenue generated from all 499 00:42:54.490 --> 00:42:59.849 of that activity by Texaco stayed in Ecuador. And some of it was put to very good use—building 500 00:42:59.849 --> 00:43:04.460 roads, electrifying small towns and so forth. 501 00:43:04.460 --> 00:43:08.359 And I don’t think the government of Ecuador really has a good answer, and I think you 502 00:43:08.359 --> 00:43:12.339 saw that demonstrated there, where it’s, "Yes, someone else should have done it earlier, 503 00:43:12.339 --> 00:43:16.440 and now we’ve started to do it, but now we’ve stopped doing it because of evidence." 504 00:43:16.440 --> 00:43:20.839 Well, look, if you’ve got poor people who are living up to their ankles in oil, you 505 00:43:20.839 --> 00:43:25.549 clean up the oil, and you figure out the legalities and the liabilities later. You don’t put 506 00:43:25.549 --> 00:43:27.180 it all on hold. 507 00:43:27.180 --> 00:43:32.220 And I think, in an interesting way, the ambassador to the United States took another small step 508 00:43:32.220 --> 00:43:35.690 forward, and she said, in a more positive way—she actually said, "I think we should 509 00:43:35.690 --> 00:43:40.329 be cleaning up the oil, and the lawyers are telling us not to. And we’ve got to figure 510 00:43:40.329 --> 00:43:43.529 out a political compromise. We’ve got to figure out a way to just get this done." And 511 00:43:43.529 --> 00:43:46.019 I thought that was actually a heartening statement by her. 512 00:43:46.019 --> 00:43:48.750 AMY GOODMAN: Paul Barrett, I want to thank you for being here with us, and we’re going 513 00:43:48.750 --> 00:43:53.460 to link to your articles, assistant managing editor and senior writer at Bloomberg Businessweek. 514 00:43:53.460 --> 00:43:57.720 His latest book is called Glock: The Rise of America’s Gun. His book about the Chevron 515 00:43:57.720 --> 00:44:02.420 oil pollution case in Ecuador is due out next year. This is Democracy Now! We’ll be back 516 00:44:02.420 --> 00:44:09.420 in a minute. 517 00:44:36.700 --> 00:44:43.700 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: In a major victory for prisoner rights advocates, President Obama has commuted 518 00:45:27.000 --> 00:45:32.210 the sentences of eight people he said were serving unfair sentences for drug crimes. 519 00:45:32.210 --> 00:45:37.250 Most of the six men and two women had been sentenced to life in prison for charges related 520 00:45:37.250 --> 00:45:42.480 to crack cocaine. All of them have already spent more than 15 years behind bars. In a 521 00:45:42.480 --> 00:45:47.880 statement Thursday, Obama noted, quote, "If they had been sentenced under the current 522 00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:51.950 law, many of them would have already served their time and paid their debt to society." 523 00:45:51.950 --> 00:45:55.519 AMY GOODMAN: The prisoners were sentenced under what Obama called an "unfair system," 524 00:45:55.519 --> 00:46:00.420 where there was a hundred-to-one sentencing disparity between crack and powder cocaine 525 00:46:00.420 --> 00:46:05.309 offenses. That disparity was reduced by the Fair Sentencing Act of 2010, but it came too 526 00:46:05.309 --> 00:46:07.250 late for thousands of inmates. 527 00:46:07.250 --> 00:46:10.490 For more, we’re joined by Jennifer Turner, human rights researcher with the American 528 00:46:10.490 --> 00:46:15.059 Civil Liberties Union. She wrote about several of the people whose sentences were commuted 529 00:46:15.059 --> 00:46:21.299 in her ACLU report, "A Living Death: Life Without Parole for Nonviolent Offenses," which 530 00:46:21.299 --> 00:46:23.769 she spoke about on Democracy Now! just last month. 531 00:46:23.769 --> 00:46:27.789 Jennifer, welcome back to Democracy Now! Tell us who got these commutations. 532 00:46:27.789 --> 00:46:30.900 JENNIFER TURNER: So, there are eight people. Six of these are Americans who were sentenced 533 00:46:30.900 --> 00:46:36.049 to die behind bars for nonviolent crack cocaine offenses. Four of these people are profiled 534 00:46:36.049 --> 00:46:41.240 in my report. They include Reynolds Wintersmith, a young man who was sentenced at 20 for his 535 00:46:41.240 --> 00:46:44.559 involvement in a drug conspiracy as a street dealer for only one year, starting when he 536 00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:49.940 was 17. He’s served 20 years—half of his life—in prison. Jason Hernandez was sentenced 537 00:46:49.940 --> 00:46:55.180 to die in prison for five years of street dealing in Texas, starting when he was only 538 00:46:55.180 --> 00:46:59.789 15. Others have served half their life, like Reynolds. And for all of them, they’ve been 539 00:46:59.789 --> 00:47:06.470 sentenced to unfair mandatory sentences that are excessive, because of previous disparities 540 00:47:06.470 --> 00:47:11.690 that punish crack cocaine offenses 100 times more severely than powder cocaine offenses. 541 00:47:11.690 --> 00:47:16.660 And this is huge news. This gives these people the opportunity to return to their families, 542 00:47:16.660 --> 00:47:21.660 some as soon as April. And it’s a really important first step in achieving some kind 543 00:47:21.660 --> 00:47:26.319 of sentencing reform that would roll back the mandatory minimum sentencing laws that 544 00:47:26.319 --> 00:47:30.789 resulted in these sentences. But the fact is that these eight people are not alone. 545 00:47:30.789 --> 00:47:35.130 There are thousands more, 2,000 people in the federal system, serving life without parole 546 00:47:35.130 --> 00:47:39.930 for nonviolent drug crimes, and many thousands more in federal prisons who are serving stiff, 547 00:47:39.930 --> 00:47:43.749 excessive mandatory minimum sentences who are being left behind. And frankly, clemency 548 00:47:43.749 --> 00:47:49.569 is not the answer for all of these thousands of people. And Congress needs to step up and 549 00:47:49.569 --> 00:47:56.460 to pass bipartisan sentencing reform legislation that would at least give some hope to others 550 00:47:56.460 --> 00:48:02.720 and would roll back some of the really illogical sentencing laws that were passed in the ’80s 551 00:48:02.720 --> 00:48:02.980 and ’90s. 552 00:48:02.980 --> 00:48:08.009 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Were you surprised by the announcement from President Obama, especially 553 00:48:08.009 --> 00:48:14.579 given the fact that he has pardoned so few people during his time in office? 554 00:48:14.579 --> 00:48:18.769 JENNIFER TURNER: I was shocked. I was shocked. I have been talking to prisoners for the past 555 00:48:18.769 --> 00:48:23.640 year—I’ve talked to 650 prisoners now—who have been saying they had no hope of getting 556 00:48:23.640 --> 00:48:27.880 out, who their only hope in many of these cases was commutation from President Obama. 557 00:48:27.880 --> 00:48:31.859 We weren’t expecting this. President Obama, as you said, has the worst clemency record 558 00:48:31.859 --> 00:48:37.249 of any president in modern history. Until yesterday, he had received 8,700 commutation 559 00:48:37.249 --> 00:48:41.400 requests from prisoners and had granted only one, to a woman dying of leukemia, who died 560 00:48:41.400 --> 00:48:47.309 at home two months ago. So, we were not expecting this kind of commutations for this Christmas, 561 00:48:47.309 --> 00:48:51.809 which is truly the best gift possible for these families. I talked to one of the prisoners, 562 00:48:51.809 --> 00:48:57.089 Reynolds Wintersmith, the day before he was sentenced, and he was—he was not especially 563 00:48:57.089 --> 00:49:01.670 hopeful, but I just—he’s beyond overjoyed now that he will be returning home to his 564 00:49:01.670 --> 00:49:06.740 family and to his daughter, with whom he’s very close. And the others feel the same way. 565 00:49:06.740 --> 00:49:11.940 AMY GOODMAN: President Obama has pardoned fewer people than any president in history 566 00:49:11.940 --> 00:49:16.769 at this point in the administration. Why were these eight people chosen? 567 00:49:16.769 --> 00:49:21.700 JENNIFER TURNER: President Obama chose these eight people to signal that something needs 568 00:49:21.700 --> 00:49:26.809 to be done about the nearly 9,000 people who are still serving excessive mandatory minimum 569 00:49:26.809 --> 00:49:32.059 sentences under the old crack-powder disparity laws. So, under laws passed in the ’80s, 570 00:49:32.059 --> 00:49:37.160 people were serving sentences that were 100 times more severe than those for powder cocaine. 571 00:49:37.160 --> 00:49:42.220 So that means that people who were sentenced for five grams of crack cocaine, which is 572 00:49:42.220 --> 00:49:45.440 the weight of two pennies, were sentenced to the same five-year mandatory sentence as 573 00:49:45.440 --> 00:49:49.799 those sentenced for 500 grams of powder cocaine, to give you a sense. 574 00:49:49.799 --> 00:49:54.609 In 2010, Congress passed the Fair Sentencing Act, which reduced that disparity to 18-to-one. 575 00:49:54.609 --> 00:49:58.900 But almost 9,000 people weren’t helped by that legislation. They’ve been left behind, 576 00:49:58.900 --> 00:50:02.660 and they continue to stay behind bars, many for the rest of their lives, at a cost of 577 00:50:02.660 --> 00:50:05.099 millions of dollars to taxpayers a year. 578 00:50:05.099 --> 00:50:08.470 And President Obama said at least he’s going to start with these eight people, but I hope 579 00:50:08.470 --> 00:50:14.200 that it’s the start of both more commutations to come, but also the passage of the Smarter 580 00:50:14.200 --> 00:50:18.539 Sentencing Act, which is now pending in Congress. It’s going to be taken up by the Senate 581 00:50:18.539 --> 00:50:23.069 Judiciary Committee in the new year. And that would allow those who have been left behind 582 00:50:23.069 --> 00:50:28.779 by this law to finally get their sentences reduced to something—a somewhat fairer sentence. 583 00:50:28.779 --> 00:50:31.740 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, in line with that, I wanted to ask you about—earlier this year, 584 00:50:31.740 --> 00:50:36.539 Attorney General Eric Holder unveiled a major policy shift to help certain low-level drug 585 00:50:36.539 --> 00:50:42.450 offenders avoid harsh mandatory minimum prison sentences. In an address to the American Bar 586 00:50:42.450 --> 00:50:46.499 Association, he announced a review of racial sentencing disparities. 587 00:50:46.499 --> 00:50:52.319 ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER: Today a vicious cycle of poverty, criminality and incarceration 588 00:50:52.319 --> 00:50:58.170 traps too many Americans and weakens too many communities. And many aspects of our criminal 589 00:50:58.170 --> 00:51:02.700 justice system may actually exacerbate these problems rather than alleviate them. It’s 590 00:51:02.700 --> 00:51:08.950 clear, as we come together today, that too many Americans go to too many prisons for 591 00:51:08.950 --> 00:51:13.579 far too long and for no truly good law enforcement reason. 592 00:51:13.579 --> 00:51:18.200 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: So, is it your sense that this is—the president’s decision today 593 00:51:18.200 --> 00:51:21.809 is part of this review that Holder announced? 594 00:51:21.809 --> 00:51:25.329 JENNIFER TURNER: Well, this is part of it. It’s part of really, I think, bipartisan 595 00:51:25.329 --> 00:51:30.190 support, and realization across both sides of the political aisle that our one-size-fits-all 596 00:51:30.190 --> 00:51:33.999 mandatory sentences aren’t working. It has sent far too many people to prison for far 597 00:51:33.999 --> 00:51:39.240 too long, as Eric Holder just said on the tape. And federal judges have been calling 598 00:51:39.240 --> 00:51:42.999 for years for reform of mandatory minimum sentences, and finally the attorney general 599 00:51:42.999 --> 00:51:47.749 and the president have spoken out about them in the last year. But really, at this point, 600 00:51:47.749 --> 00:51:51.980 Congress has to act. Only Congress can change the sentencing laws. You know, I mentioned 601 00:51:51.980 --> 00:51:56.130 2,000 people are serving life without parole for federal drug crimes right now, but last 602 00:51:56.130 --> 00:51:59.499 week alone, I know of three people who were sentenced to die in prison for nonviolent 603 00:51:59.499 --> 00:52:00.900 federal drug crimes. The number is going up. 604 00:52:00.900 --> 00:52:02.890 AMY GOODMAN: When you say "die in prison," that’s life without parole. 605 00:52:02.890 --> 00:52:05.740 JENNIFER TURNER: Life without parole, explicitly life without parole sentences just last week 606 00:52:05.740 --> 00:52:09.210 for nonviolent drug crimes. And I know—those are three people. There may be others. 607 00:52:09.210 --> 00:52:14.890 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And one of the points, I think, about some of these folks who were freed by 608 00:52:14.890 --> 00:52:20.029 the president and also the—that critics have raised, is that often the people who 609 00:52:20.029 --> 00:52:25.930 get these long sentences, life without parole, are the ones who actually went to trial because 610 00:52:25.930 --> 00:52:31.359 they didn’t agree to a plea deal, and often the kingpins are the ones who turn and agree 611 00:52:31.359 --> 00:52:33.200 to cooperate and get lighter sentences. 612 00:52:33.200 --> 00:52:36.109 JENNIFER TURNER: Absolutely, absolutely. Stephanie George, one of the people who was commuted 613 00:52:36.109 --> 00:52:39.740 yesterday, was sentenced to life without parole for drugs her ex-boyfriend stashed in her 614 00:52:39.740 --> 00:52:44.200 attic in a lockbox. He took responsibility for the drugs. He was found to be the leader 615 00:52:44.200 --> 00:52:48.680 of the conspiracy. But he’s been out of prison now for years, because he cut a deal. 616 00:52:48.680 --> 00:52:52.740 And others who testified against her also have been out of prison for some time. But 617 00:52:52.740 --> 00:52:56.819 she had no information to trade. She wasn’t involved in any kind of major way. 618 00:52:56.819 --> 00:53:02.509 Similarly, Clarence Aaron, one of the other men who was commuted yesterday, when he was 619 00:53:02.509 --> 00:53:07.009 in college, he introduced a college classmate’s brother to a drug dealer he knew in high school, 620 00:53:07.009 --> 00:53:11.950 had a very minimal role in a drug conspiracy—I’m sorry, two drug deals, one of which didn’t 621 00:53:11.950 --> 00:53:15.480 even take place. And he was sentenced to die in prison because he had no information to 622 00:53:15.480 --> 00:53:19.690 trade. The supplier is about to be released next year. Everyone else involved in the conspiracy 623 00:53:19.690 --> 00:53:24.049 at a much higher level have all been released from prison. But he went to trial. He fought 624 00:53:24.049 --> 00:53:28.749 the charges, and he lost. And because it was a mandatory sentence—the judge said, "I 625 00:53:28.749 --> 00:53:32.390 object to the sentence." Similarly, Stephanie’s case, the judge said, "You’ve just been 626 00:53:32.390 --> 00:53:37.119 a girlfriend and a bag holder, but my hands are tied." And over and over, this is the 627 00:53:37.119 --> 00:53:37.869 case. 628 00:53:37.869 --> 00:53:42.859 And similar, we see unfair sentences because of the crack-powder disparity. Jason Hernandez, 629 00:53:42.859 --> 00:53:49.099 also commuted yesterday, on the same day he was sentenced to die in prison, at 21, the 630 00:53:49.099 --> 00:53:52.710 supplier, who supplied all the drugs that he helped distribute, was sentenced to only 631 00:53:52.710 --> 00:53:58.999 12 years in prison for the same amount of drugs, but because he distributed powder cocaine, 632 00:53:58.999 --> 00:54:03.809 not crack cocaine. Jason was sentenced to die in prison because he was distributing 633 00:54:03.809 --> 00:54:04.069 crack. 634 00:54:04.069 --> 00:54:09.579 AMY GOODMAN: The sentences that were commuted—they’re not freed right away, but in the next months—that 635 00:54:09.579 --> 00:54:14.200 were commuted yesterday were federal cases. What about the roles of governors? 636 00:54:14.200 --> 00:54:18.089 JENNIFER TURNER: That’s a great question. Now there are thousands of people—over a 637 00:54:18.089 --> 00:54:21.210 thousand people serving life without parole for nonviolent crimes in the states, according 638 00:54:21.210 --> 00:54:26.109 to my research, but many others serving long sentences. And I really hope that President 639 00:54:26.109 --> 00:54:31.089 Obama’s leadership on granting commutations yesterday will prompt governors to do a similar 640 00:54:31.089 --> 00:54:36.140 review and hopefully issue commutations on a grander level in the states, because, I 641 00:54:36.140 --> 00:54:40.099 can tell you, I’ve identified many, many, many hundreds of people who will never be 642 00:54:40.099 --> 00:54:45.210 released from prison if their state governors do not take action. And again, as in the federal 643 00:54:45.210 --> 00:54:51.039 system, state spending on prisons has skyrocketed, and governors need to address the cost of 644 00:54:51.039 --> 00:54:56.239 prison, these long sentences, if they’re going to try to have enough money for education 645 00:54:56.239 --> 00:54:58.579 and for other worthwhile efforts. 646 00:54:58.579 --> 00:55:05.579 AMY GOODMAN: Jennifer Turner, it looks like we are just about to reach one of the people 647 00:55:06.130 --> 00:55:12.140 whose sentences were commuted. Do you see other commutations before the end of the year? 648 00:55:12.140 --> 00:55:15.980 JENNIFER TURNER: I truly hope that this is the first of more commutations, but I don’t 649 00:55:15.980 --> 00:55:20.289 know what to expect. As I said, President Obama’s record has been the worst of any 650 00:55:20.289 --> 00:55:25.759 modern president. He’s denied many commutation petitions. And even if he were to start granting 651 00:55:25.759 --> 00:55:30.549 commutations in a more broad manner, it’s not going to address all of the many thousands 652 00:55:30.549 --> 00:55:33.660 of people serving excessive sentences, like Jason’s. And we’re about to hear from 653 00:55:33.660 --> 00:55:34.599 Jason directly. 654 00:55:34.599 --> 00:55:41.599 AMY GOODMAN: It looks like—it looks like we have Jason Hernandez on the phone right 655 00:55:42.049 --> 00:55:47.630 now. Jason Hernandez of McKinney, Texas, sentenced to life in prison in 1998, has been serving 656 00:55:47.630 --> 00:55:52.359 life without parole since age 21 for his role in a drug conspiracy, starting when he was 657 00:55:52.359 --> 00:55:57.710 only 15, one of 18—he was one of eight prisoners whose sentences were commuted by President 658 00:55:57.710 --> 00:55:59.160 Obama Thursday. 659 00:55:59.160 --> 00:56:01.269 Welcome to Democracy Now! How do you feel, Jason? 660 00:56:01.269 --> 00:56:05.380 JASON HERNANDEZ: Elated. I mean, it’s a dream come true. And I’m just—I just hope 661 00:56:05.380 --> 00:56:11.269 that this is the beginning of more to come. I mean, I’m happy for what was given to 662 00:56:11.269 --> 00:56:16.380 me by the president, but it’s kind of like a bittersweet moment because there’s other 663 00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:21.829 individuals in here who I believe that are more deserving than me. And they just didn’t—they 664 00:56:21.829 --> 00:56:24.609 didn’t believe that something like this could happen. But now they believe. And I 665 00:56:24.609 --> 00:56:31.609 just hope that, you know, the president and other lawmakers decide to do more for the 666 00:56:33.009 --> 00:56:40.009 individuals in here, because—you know, my mother and father, this Christmas, when they 667 00:56:42.859 --> 00:56:49.859 come visit me, and my family, my son, they’re going to be crying, but it’s going to be 668 00:56:53.349 --> 00:56:55.279 tears of joy. But at the same time, I’m going to have to look at other individuals’ 669 00:56:55.279 --> 00:56:57.769 mothers and fathers and kids crying at visitation, and their cries are going to be for sorrow. 670 00:56:57.769 --> 00:56:58.019 So, I just hope—I mean, I’m grateful for what the president has done, but I hope there’s 671 00:56:57.769 --> 00:56:58.019 more to come. 672 00:56:57.769 --> 00:57:00.319 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Jason, if you could briefly tell us, in terms of the particulars of your 673 00:57:00.319 --> 00:57:02.069 case, how you ended up there? 674 00:57:02.069 --> 00:57:09.069 JASON HERNANDEZ: Well, I just—I started selling joints and dime sacks on the corner. 675 00:57:12.630 --> 00:57:19.259 I mean, at the time, in 1992, when I started selling drugs at the age of 15, it was just—it 676 00:57:19.259 --> 00:57:21.680 was the thing to do. It was popular. I mean, there was—I mean, the community I grew up 677 00:57:21.680 --> 00:57:23.839 in is kind of—you don’t see selling drugs as wrong. It’s like what everybody does. 678 00:57:23.839 --> 00:57:28.960 And when you’re a kid, you just—you follow the norm. And that’s what I grew—I mean, 679 00:57:28.960 --> 00:57:34.499 I make no—there’s no excuse for my conduct. I hate to say that I’m a product of my environment, 680 00:57:34.499 --> 00:57:38.700 but when you’re a kid and you’re growing up in an environment like that, I mean, that’s 681 00:57:38.700 --> 00:57:41.670 what—there’s a good chance that that’s what you’re going to become. And I just— 682 00:57:41.670 --> 00:57:42.130 OPERATOR: This call is from a federal prison. 683 00:57:42.130 --> 00:57:43.109 JASON HERNANDEZ: I just was just selling drugs—not major amounts, but, I mean, it was a conspiracy—under 684 00:57:43.109 --> 00:57:48.329 the terms of the law, it was a conspiracy. But it’s not nothing that you would figure 685 00:57:48.329 --> 00:57:55.329 that you would see like on TV or nothing, a real network or cartel-related or gang-related. 686 00:58:00.700 --> 00:58:07.269 It was just a bunch of group of friends that we just grew up together, and we sold drugs 687 00:58:07.269 --> 00:58:07.519 together. And— 688 00:58:07.269 --> 00:58:10.140 AMY GOODMAN: Jason, we just have 30 seconds. Where were you yesterday when you got the 689 00:58:10.140 --> 00:58:10.390 news? 690 00:58:10.349 --> 00:58:15.559 JASON HERNANDEZ: I was in the warden’s office. I thought he was playing. I told him, "Are 691 00:58:15.559 --> 00:58:22.559 you serious? Can you check the—I mean, the computer? Because maybe it’s a hoax or something." 692 00:58:24.130 --> 00:58:25.160 I mean, I’ve seen a guy—some guys escaped a couple months back from Florida. And I said, 693 00:58:25.160 --> 00:58:25.799 "Man, maybe somebody is playing a game. Can you show me the computer list? Can we verify 694 00:58:25.799 --> 00:58:30.039 this?" And he says, "Yeah. You’ve got a 20-year sentence. It’s right here on the 695 00:58:30.039 --> 00:58:37.039 BOP website." So, I cried. I cried and shaked. And I’m still shaking, I mean. 696 00:58:37.180 --> 00:58:43.150 AMY GOODMAN: Well, Jason, congratulations, and thanks so much for joining us. Jason Hernandez 697 00:58:43.150 --> 00:58:47.519 had his sentence commuted by President Obama yesterday. He has been serving life without 698 00:58:47.519 --> 00:58:52.819 parole since age 21.