WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.200 --> 00:00:18.039 From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now! 2 00:00:18.039 --> 00:00:22.770 The U.S. government made a big mistake. They killed innocent people. This was a serious 3 00:00:22.770 --> 00:00:29.770 crime. They turned many kids into orphans, many wives into widows. Many were killed, 4 00:00:30.570 --> 00:00:34.190 and many others were injured, although everyone was innocent. 5 00:00:34.190 --> 00:00:40.040 A wedding that became a funeral. A new report on a U.S. drone strike in Yemen last December 6 00:00:40.040 --> 00:00:45.829 reveals that some, if not all the dozen people killed were civilians, not al-Qaeda as officials 7 00:00:45.829 --> 00:00:51.150 initially claimed. We’ll speak with the author of the Human Rights Watch report and 8 00:00:51.150 --> 00:00:52.530 with Jeremy Scahill. 9 00:00:52.530 --> 00:00:57.570 Then, a University of California scientist, Tyrone Hayes, discovered a popular herbicide 10 00:00:57.570 --> 00:01:02.260 may have harmful effects on the endocrine system. When he tried to publish the results, 11 00:01:02.260 --> 00:01:06.470 the company that makes the chemical launched a campaign to discredit his work. 12 00:01:06.470 --> 00:01:12.140 We were a bit surprised when we found out that when we exposed frogs to very low levels 13 00:01:12.140 --> 00:01:17.200 of atrazine, 0.1 parts per billion, that it produced animals that look like this. These 14 00:01:17.200 --> 00:01:22.299 are the dissected gonads of an animal that has two testes, two ovaries, another large 15 00:01:22.299 --> 00:01:25.639 testis, more ovaries, which is not normal. 16 00:01:25.639 --> 00:01:32.600 Then we’ll look at the shadow lobbying complex. On paper, influence peddling has declined; 17 00:01:32.600 --> 00:01:36.469 in reality, it’s gone underground. 18 00:01:36.469 --> 00:01:41.119 All that and more, coming up. 19 00:01:41.119 --> 00:01:46.789 Welcome to Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 20 00:01:46.789 --> 00:01:50.920 Ukraine’s President Viktor Yanukovych announced concessions to his pro-European opponents 21 00:01:50.920 --> 00:01:54.649 on Friday, including a plan to hold early elections, but it remains unclear whether 22 00:01:54.649 --> 00:01:59.799 the opposition will accept the deal. At least 47 people died on Thursday in the most violent 23 00:01:59.799 --> 00:02:05.770 day Ukraine has seen since it became independent 22 years ago. U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon 24 00:02:05.770 --> 00:02:09.280 condemned both the police and armed protesters for using deadly force. 25 00:02:09.280 --> 00:02:14.930 Ban Ki-moon: "I continue to strongly appeal to all involved to cease the violence and 26 00:02:14.930 --> 00:02:21.930 for the Ukrainian authorities to refrain from excessive use of force. I am appalled by the 27 00:02:23.299 --> 00:02:30.299 use of firearms by both the police and protesters. I urge all parties to immediately resume a 28 00:02:32.920 --> 00:02:39.700 genuine dialogue. This is the only way to prevent further bloodshed and arrive at a 29 00:02:39.700 --> 00:02:45.090 solution to the deepening political, security and economic crisis." 30 00:02:45.090 --> 00:02:51.159 In news from Somalia, the presidential palace in Mogadishu has come under attack. Police 31 00:02:51.159 --> 00:02:56.189 said a huge car bomb exploded outside the gates, then militants attempted to shoot their 32 00:02:56.189 --> 00:03:01.489 way into the compound. It is unclear how many people have died. The United Nations’ top 33 00:03:01.489 --> 00:03:07.640 envoy to the country said the Somalian president survived the attack. 34 00:03:07.640 --> 00:03:12.519 Three Al Jazeera journalists on trial in Egypt pleaded not guilty Thursday to having links 35 00:03:12.519 --> 00:03:17.370 to the Muslim Brotherhood. The Egyptian military government has accused them of "joining, or 36 00:03:17.370 --> 00:03:22.989 aiding and abetting a terrorist organization." The trio were denied bail, and their trial 37 00:03:22.989 --> 00:03:27.780 was adjourned until March 5. Heather Allan, the head of Al Jazeera English news gathering, 38 00:03:27.780 --> 00:03:30.700 criticized Egyptian authorities for prosecuting journalists. 39 00:03:30.700 --> 00:03:35.129 Heather Allan: "We believe we will be acquitted. The lawyers are fully on board with us. They 40 00:03:35.129 --> 00:03:40.109 fully believe in our case. They fully believe that we were just operating as journalists. 41 00:03:40.109 --> 00:03:47.109 We don’t have an agenda. We’ve got nothing against Egypt. We certainly don’t lie or 42 00:03:47.530 --> 00:03:54.530 do biased reporting. So, we believe that we are innocent." 43 00:03:55.140 --> 00:04:01.129 In news from Japan, about 100 tons of highly radioactive water have leaked from one of 44 00:04:01.129 --> 00:04:06.609 the hundreds of storage tanks at the devastated Fukushima nuclear power plant. The Tokyo Electric 45 00:04:06.609 --> 00:04:12.480 Power Company described it as the worst spill at the plant in six months. Next month marks 46 00:04:12.480 --> 00:04:16.220 the third anniversary of the meltdown at Fukushima. 47 00:04:16.220 --> 00:04:20.889 The National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration is reporting last month was the fourth warmest 48 00:04:20.889 --> 00:04:27.770 January globally since record keeping began in 1880. Temperature maps show much of the 49 00:04:27.770 --> 00:04:32.540 world — except the eastern United States — experienced warmer than average temperatures. 50 00:04:32.540 --> 00:04:39.540 The NOAA also reported 37 percent of the United States is now suffering from drought. Precipitation 51 00:04:39.580 --> 00:04:44.220 was below normal for more than 30 states last month. 52 00:04:44.220 --> 00:04:48.900 President Obama has dropped a measure to trim cost-of-living increases in Social Security 53 00:04:48.900 --> 00:04:53.630 from an upcoming budget proposal. While the move was praised by progressive Democrats, 54 00:04:53.630 --> 00:04:58.950 the White House admitted the cuts, known as chained CPI, remain "on the table," but only 55 00:04:58.950 --> 00:05:02.560 as part of a grand bargain deal with Republicans. 56 00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:07.880 A federal judge has dismissed a lawsuit challenging the legality of the New York Police Department’s 57 00:05:07.880 --> 00:05:12.380 secret surveillance of Muslims and Arabs in New Jersey. The lawsuit alleged the surveillance 58 00:05:12.380 --> 00:05:17.660 programs were unconstitutional because they focused on religion, national origin and race. 59 00:05:17.660 --> 00:05:21.790 U.S. District Judge William Martini said, "The motive for the program was not solely 60 00:05:21.790 --> 00:05:26.100 to discriminate against Muslims, but to find Muslim terrorists hiding among the ordinary 61 00:05:26.100 --> 00:05:32.170 law-abiding Muslims." Judge Martini also criticized the Associated Press for exposing the secret 62 00:05:32.170 --> 00:05:36.890 spy program. He wrote, "Nowhere in the complaint do the plaintiffs allege that they suffered 63 00:05:36.890 --> 00:05:42.260 harm prior to the unauthorized release of documents by the Associated Press. This confirms 64 00:05:42.260 --> 00:05:47.340 that plaintiffs’ alleged injuries flow from the Associated Press’s unauthorized disclosure 65 00:05:47.340 --> 00:05:53.740 of the documents." The judge went on to write, "The Associated Press covertly obtained the 66 00:05:53.740 --> 00:05:59.840 materials and published them without authorization. Thus the injury, if any existed, is not fairly 67 00:05:59.840 --> 00:06:01.610 traceable to the city." 68 00:06:01.610 --> 00:06:08.610 In Georgia, the family of a 17-year-old ROTC student who was shot and killed by a police 69 00:06:08.690 --> 00:06:15.410 officer says police mistook a video game controller the teenager was holding for a gun. Police 70 00:06:15.410 --> 00:06:22.410 shot dead Christopher Roupe on Feb. 14 when officers showed up at his mobile home to serve 71 00:06:22.840 --> 00:06:29.250 a probation violation warrant for his father. Police had claimed the teenager pointed a 72 00:06:29.250 --> 00:06:35.880 gun at the time of the shooting, but the family says a Nintendo Wii video game controller 73 00:06:35.880 --> 00:06:38.800 was in his hands. 74 00:06:38.800 --> 00:06:43.710 Authorities in Bastrop County, Texas, are also facing questions over a fatal shooting. 75 00:06:43.710 --> 00:06:49.330 On Sunday a police officer shot dead a 47-year-old African-American woman as she opened the door 76 00:06:49.330 --> 00:06:54.650 for police at her boyfriend’s house. Police initially claimed Yvette Smith was armed, 77 00:06:54.650 --> 00:06:58.830 but investigators now say they "cannot confirm" if she had a gun or even if she refused to 78 00:06:58.830 --> 00:07:00.940 follow commands. 79 00:07:00.940 --> 00:07:06.750 U.N. Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon has appealed to the international community to send an 80 00:07:06.750 --> 00:07:12.830 additional 3,000 troops and police to Central African Republic to combat worsening sectarian 81 00:07:12.830 --> 00:07:13.350 violence. 82 00:07:13.350 --> 00:07:20.350 Ban Ki-moon: "It is a calamity with a strong claim on the conscience of humankind. Over 83 00:07:21.690 --> 00:07:28.530 the past year we have seen, in quick succession, the violent overthrow of the government, the 84 00:07:28.530 --> 00:07:35.530 collapse of state institutions, and a descent into lawlessness and sectarian brutality. 85 00:07:36.770 --> 00:07:43.340 More than 2.5 million people, more than half the population, need immediate humanitarian 86 00:07:43.340 --> 00:07:44.770 assistance." 87 00:07:44.770 --> 00:07:50.220 A Haitian appellate court has ruled that former U.S.-backed dictator Jean-Claude "Baby Doc" 88 00:07:50.220 --> 00:07:54.680 Duvalier could be charged with crimes against humanity under international law. The suit 89 00:07:54.680 --> 00:08:00.220 was filed by victims of forced disappearances and torture during his 15-year rule. The court 90 00:08:00.220 --> 00:08:03.300 reverses an earlier ruling. 91 00:08:03.300 --> 00:08:08.580 The Humane Society of the United States has just released undercover video showing shocking 92 00:08:08.580 --> 00:08:15.580 conditions at a huge hog operation in Kentucky called Iron Maiden Farms. One video shows 93 00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:23.140 pigs confined in cramped cages known as gestation crates being fed ground-up intestines from 94 00:08:23.140 --> 00:08:30.080 piglets who had recently succumbed to a highly contagious disease. More than 900 piglets 95 00:08:30.080 --> 00:08:33.029 recently died from the disease in a two-day period. 96 00:08:33.029 --> 00:08:38.510 In related news, Idaho has become the latest state to consider an "ag-gag bill" that would 97 00:08:38.510 --> 00:08:44.079 impose penalties for trespassing and filming without permission in farming facilities. 98 00:08:44.079 --> 00:08:51.079 In 2012, undercover activists in Idaho filmed workers stomping on cows, beating and dragging 99 00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:53.810 them at a dairy farm. 100 00:08:53.810 --> 00:08:57.640 Former Black Panther Russell Maroon Shoatz has been moved out of solitary confinement 101 00:08:57.640 --> 00:09:04.640 for the first time in 22 years. Last year, the 70-year-old prisoner filed a lawsuit against 102 00:09:04.770 --> 00:09:09.290 the Pennsylvania Department of Corrections over being held in isolation for so long. 103 00:09:09.290 --> 00:09:16.080 Click here to see our recent special report on aging political prisoners being held in 104 00:09:16.080 --> 00:09:18.740 solitary confinement. 105 00:09:18.740 --> 00:09:23.220 Jerry Boykin is back in the news. The retired Army lieutenant general who once described 106 00:09:23.220 --> 00:09:29.360 the war on terror as a "holy war" is now predicting Jesus will return to Earth armed with an AR-15. 107 00:09:29.360 --> 00:09:35.490 Boykin now serves as the executive vice president of the Family Research Council. He made the 108 00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:40.580 comment at a recent Pro-Family Legislators Conference in Dallas, Texas. 109 00:09:40.580 --> 00:09:45.200 Jerry Boykin: "The lord is a warrior, the lord is his name, and in Revelation 19 it 110 00:09:45.200 --> 00:09:51.450 says when he comes back, he’s coming back as what? A warrior, a mighty warrior leading 111 00:09:51.450 --> 00:09:57.460 a mighty army, riding a white horse with a blood-stained white robe. And I don’t know 112 00:09:57.460 --> 00:10:03.340 about theologians, and I was at Dallas Theological Seminary yesterday, and I said, ’I’m not 113 00:10:03.340 --> 00:10:08.580 going to argue theology with you folks, but I believe that blood on that robe is the blood 114 00:10:08.580 --> 00:10:12.740 of his enemies, because he’s coming back as a warrior carrying a sword.’ And I believe 115 00:10:12.740 --> 00:10:19.040 now — I’ve checked this out — I believe that sword he’ll be carrying when he comes 116 00:10:19.040 --> 00:10:21.340 back is an AR-15." 117 00:10:21.340 --> 00:10:26.020 While the Academy Awards are still a couple weeks away, the Oscar-nominated documentary 118 00:10:26.020 --> 00:10:31.440 "The Act of Killing" had an unusual screening on Thursday; it was projected on the World 119 00:10:31.440 --> 00:10:36.870 Bank headquarters in Washington, D.C. The East Timor and Indonesian Action Network used 120 00:10:36.870 --> 00:10:43.650 the film to call on the World Bank to acknowledge its role in the 1965 military coup in Indonesia 121 00:10:43.650 --> 00:10:50.180 that led to the massacre of an estimated one million civilians. Robin Bell of Bellvisuals 122 00:10:50.180 --> 00:10:51.470 helped set up the screening. 123 00:10:51.470 --> 00:10:56.150 Robin Bell: "We like to project on buildings. We like people to see the films, and we want 124 00:10:56.150 --> 00:11:02.250 to kind of shake things up and spark dialogue. We’ve had people walk by who have had no 125 00:11:02.250 --> 00:11:06.730 idea about the crimes that were committed, and this is a good way to spark discussion 126 00:11:06.730 --> 00:11:12.150 and get people’s comments and, in general, let people know what’s going on." 127 00:11:12.150 --> 00:11:16.330 And those are some of the headlines this is Democracy Now, Democracynow.org, the War and 128 00:11:16.330 --> 00:11:21.930 Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 129 00:11:21.930 --> 00:11:27.920 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: A new report has revealed that a U.S. drone strike that killed at least 130 00:11:27.920 --> 00:11:33.090 a dozen people in Yemen in December failed to comply with rules imposed by President 131 00:11:33.090 --> 00:11:37.990 Obama last year to protect civilians. The strike was carried out by the U.S. military’s 132 00:11:37.990 --> 00:11:42.700 Joint Special Operations Command and targeted vehicles that were part of a wedding procession 133 00:11:42.700 --> 00:11:48.490 going towards the groom’s village outside the central Yemeni city of Rad’a. According 134 00:11:48.490 --> 00:11:53.120 to the Human Rights Watch investigation, quote, "some, if not all those killed and wounded 135 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:58.140 were civilians" and not members of the armed group al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula as 136 00:11:58.140 --> 00:12:03.750 U.S. and Yemeni government officials initially claimed. The report concluded that the attack 137 00:12:03.750 --> 00:12:10.250 killed 12 men between the ages of 20 and 65 and wounded 15 others. It cites accounts from 138 00:12:10.250 --> 00:12:15.020 survivors, relatives of the dead, local officials and news media reports. 139 00:12:15.020 --> 00:12:20.310 One of the witnesses Human Rights Watch interviewed in Yemen was Abdullah Muhammad al-Tisi of 140 00:12:20.310 --> 00:12:25.529 Yakla. He described the scene on the day the wedding procession was attacked on December 141 00:12:25.529 --> 00:12:31.910 12, 2013. His son, Ali Abdullah Muhammad al-Tisi, was killed in that drone strike. 142 00:12:31.910 --> 00:12:38.910 ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD AL-TISI: [translated] We were having a traditional marriage ceremony. 143 00:12:40.040 --> 00:12:47.040 According to our traditions, the whole tribe has to go to the bride’s tribe. We were 144 00:12:47.640 --> 00:12:54.640 in about 12 to 15 cars with 60 to 70 men on board. He had lunch at the bride’s village 145 00:12:56.470 --> 00:13:02.800 at Al Abu Saraimah. Then we left to head back to the groom’s village. 146 00:13:02.800 --> 00:13:09.800 A drone was hovering overhead all morning. There were one or two of them. One of the 147 00:13:10.290 --> 00:13:17.290 missiles hit the car. The car was totally burned. Four other cars were also struck. 148 00:13:18.050 --> 00:13:25.050 When we stopped, we heard the drone fire. Blood was everywhere, and the people killed 149 00:13:25.339 --> 00:13:32.339 and injured were scattered everywhere. The area was full of blood, dead bodies and injured 150 00:13:35.000 --> 00:13:42.000 people. I was injured. I saw the missile hit the vehicle behind the car my son was driving. 151 00:13:43.190 --> 00:13:45.740 INTERVIEWER: [translated] Was it your car? ABDULLAH MUHAMMAD AL-TISI: [translated] It 152 00:13:45.740 --> 00:13:51.180 was my own car. I went there to check on my son. I found his body thrown from the car. 153 00:13:51.180 --> 00:13:57.630 I turned him over, and he was dead. He was already dead. 154 00:13:57.630 --> 00:14:02.930 I didn’t see any al-Qaeda militants in the procession, and no one from the area is a 155 00:14:02.930 --> 00:14:09.930 member of al-Qaeda. The Yemeni government gave us 100 Kalashnikovs and 34 million Yemeni 156 00:14:10.210 --> 00:14:16.490 rials, nearly $159,000 U.S., according to tribal tradition. According to tribal tradition, 157 00:14:16.490 --> 00:14:21.029 this alone is an admission of guilt, and the money was an admission of guilt. The money 158 00:14:21.029 --> 00:14:25.680 was for the burial of the dead and the treatment of the injured. The U.S. government made a 159 00:14:25.680 --> 00:14:30.690 big mistake. They killed innocent people. This was a serious crime. They turned many 160 00:14:30.690 --> 00:14:37.690 kids into orphans, many wives into widows. Many were killed, and many others were injured, 161 00:14:38.110 --> 00:14:39.589 although everyone was innocent. 162 00:14:39.589 --> 00:14:44.940 AMY GOODMAN: That was Abdullah Muhammad al-Tisi talking about the U.S. drone strike in December 163 00:14:44.940 --> 00:14:49.550 that killed his son. All of this comes as the White House is reportedly considering 164 00:14:49.550 --> 00:14:55.290 using a drone to kill a U.S. citizen living in Pakistan who’s allegedly affiliated with 165 00:14:55.290 --> 00:14:55.640 al-Qaeda. 166 00:14:55.640 --> 00:14:59.500 For more, we’re joined right now by Letta Tayler, senior researcher on terrorism and 167 00:14:59.500 --> 00:15:04.170 counterterrorism at Human Rights Watch. She wrote the new report titled "A Wedding That 168 00:15:04.170 --> 00:15:08.100 Became a Funeral: US Drone Attack on Marriage Procession in Yemen." 169 00:15:08.100 --> 00:15:14.540 We’re also joined by Democracy Now! video stream by Jeremy Scahill, co-founder of TheIntercept.org, 170 00:15:14.540 --> 00:15:20.500 as well as the producer of and the co-writer of the documentary that’s been nominated 171 00:15:20.500 --> 00:15:22.940 for an Oscar, Dirty Wars. 172 00:15:22.940 --> 00:15:27.350 We welcome you both to Democracy Now! Letta, you just recently came back from Yemen, came 173 00:15:27.350 --> 00:15:29.460 out with this report. Talk about its findings. 174 00:15:29.460 --> 00:15:31.680 LETTA TAYLER: Well, it’s a pleasure to be here. 175 00:15:31.680 --> 00:15:38.680 What we found is that this strike on a wedding convoy in Yemen killed 12 people, injured 176 00:15:39.330 --> 00:15:45.020 15, including the bride, who received a superficial face wound. And we have serious concerns that 177 00:15:45.020 --> 00:15:51.050 the strike not only may have violated international law, but also flies in the face of President 178 00:15:51.050 --> 00:15:56.300 Obama’s policies on targeted killings. The president has said the U.S. does not strike 179 00:15:56.300 --> 00:16:02.149 unless it has near certainty that no civilians were killed, yet the evidence strongly suggests 180 00:16:02.149 --> 00:16:06.370 that at least some of those killed in this strike, and possibly all of them, were civilians. 181 00:16:06.370 --> 00:16:13.370 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Now, could you talk to us about what your research involved in producing 182 00:16:13.660 --> 00:16:19.570 the report? And also, you seem to have found contradictions between what national Yemeni 183 00:16:19.570 --> 00:16:24.110 officials were saying and what local provincial or officials closer to the ground were saying. 184 00:16:24.110 --> 00:16:30.010 LETTA TAYLER: Yes, indeed, there are a mind-boggling array of on, off and on-the-record comments 185 00:16:30.010 --> 00:16:35.980 about this strike, which really underscores the urgent need for the United States to come 186 00:16:35.980 --> 00:16:42.089 clean on what exactly happened. I researched this strike in Yemen. This is my seventh or 187 00:16:42.089 --> 00:16:46.380 eighth trip to Yemen in recent years, many of those trips to look at this particular 188 00:16:46.380 --> 00:16:52.080 issue of targeted killings. I met with relatives and family members there, as well as government 189 00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:57.410 officials, academics, journalists and so forth. The most compelling testimony, of course, 190 00:16:57.410 --> 00:17:03.560 was from the family members—as you’ve seen in the video, men holding tattered ID 191 00:17:03.560 --> 00:17:10.560 cards of their loved ones, in some cases the only remaining item that they had of these 192 00:17:11.520 --> 00:17:17.140 people who died, and saying to me, "Explain to me, explain to me why did the U.S. kill 193 00:17:17.140 --> 00:17:24.019 my son, why did the U.S. kill my nephew." Even the—even the son of the groom from 194 00:17:24.019 --> 00:17:28.369 a previous marriage was killed in this strike. And these Yemenis deserve answers from the 195 00:17:28.369 --> 00:17:29.710 United States as to what happened. 196 00:17:29.710 --> 00:17:30.989 AMY GOODMAN: What has the U.S. said? 197 00:17:30.989 --> 00:17:37.279 LETTA TAYLER: The U.S. has responded to my report in a fashion that I find disappointing 198 00:17:37.279 --> 00:17:42.169 and disconcerting. We are getting more of the same obfuscation. We’re getting more 199 00:17:42.169 --> 00:17:49.169 off-the-record comments to media that, yes, this strike did hit, that the targets of the 200 00:17:49.779 --> 00:17:54.639 strike were militants. But where is the evidence? Show us the proof. Show us the findings of 201 00:17:54.639 --> 00:18:00.350 your reports. If indeed militants were killed, let us judge the facts. Let us see if you’re 202 00:18:00.350 --> 00:18:02.399 complying with law and with your own policy. 203 00:18:02.399 --> 00:18:06.299 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Now, the government did claim that there was a particular militant that 204 00:18:06.299 --> 00:18:11.489 they were looking to kill, but then his name did not appear in the list of the dead, right? 205 00:18:11.489 --> 00:18:16.480 LETTA TAYLER: Yes, Shawqi al-Badani. He was not among the 12 names that were given to 206 00:18:16.480 --> 00:18:21.799 me, the 12 bodies that were identified by relatives as well as other media in Yemen. 207 00:18:21.799 --> 00:18:25.759 And indeed, the relatives I spoke to said they never heard of this man. 208 00:18:25.759 --> 00:18:31.860 AMY GOODMAN: Jeremy Scahill, in Dirty Wars, you go to Yemen. You investigate a number 209 00:18:31.860 --> 00:18:38.860 of drone strikes. Talk about how this one fits in, the December attack that is now—we’re 210 00:18:40.289 --> 00:18:42.179 talking about, of the Human Rights Watch report. 211 00:18:42.179 --> 00:18:46.369 JEREMY SCAHILL: Well, first of all, I mean, what I think is really key here that Letta 212 00:18:46.369 --> 00:18:51.210 and the team at Human Rights Watch have really zeroed in on is that when there are—when 213 00:18:51.210 --> 00:18:57.399 there’s these strikes and civilians are killed, the Obama administration has stated 214 00:18:57.399 --> 00:19:02.820 that they do a review, that they do an investigation. And indeed, these anonymous officials have 215 00:19:02.820 --> 00:19:07.600 been saying to major media outlets that they did an internal investigation and that the 216 00:19:07.600 --> 00:19:12.340 Department of Defense determined that the individuals that were killed were in fact 217 00:19:12.340 --> 00:19:17.970 legitimate combatants. And yet, those reports are never made public. 218 00:19:17.970 --> 00:19:23.029 In the cases that I’ve investigated in Yemen, one of which was the al-Majalah bombing that 219 00:19:23.029 --> 00:19:27.549 you referenced, it was the first time that we know of that President Obama authorized 220 00:19:27.549 --> 00:19:32.330 a military-style attack inside of Yemen. And that wasn’t a drone attack; it was actually 221 00:19:32.330 --> 00:19:37.710 a cruise missile attack. And it killed three dozen—more than three dozen people, the 222 00:19:37.710 --> 00:19:42.809 overwhelming majority of whom were women and children. There supposedly was an internal 223 00:19:42.809 --> 00:19:48.350 investigation into that, and yet the White House won’t release it. The Pentagon will 224 00:19:48.350 --> 00:19:54.139 not release these investigations that they do. In the case of the drone bombings of Anwar 225 00:19:54.139 --> 00:19:59.340 Awlaki, an American citizen, and then his 16-year-old son two weeks later in a separate 226 00:19:59.340 --> 00:20:03.619 drone strike, again they said that there was an internal investigation into the killing 227 00:20:03.619 --> 00:20:06.869 of this boy. The findings of it are not released. 228 00:20:06.869 --> 00:20:11.419 And what we’re seeing right now, and we’ve talked about this a lot on the show, boils 229 00:20:11.419 --> 00:20:15.659 down to the Obama administration trying to wage what it perceives—what it believes 230 00:20:15.659 --> 00:20:20.220 is, you know, pre-emptive war or preventative strikes, where they’re killing people that 231 00:20:20.220 --> 00:20:24.799 they think may one day pose a threat, or they may have picked up chatter that they’ve 232 00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:31.799 been discussing some kind of a plot. And there’s no—not even a sort of vague idea that we 233 00:20:34.970 --> 00:20:38.779 should have any kind of a law enforcement approach to the crime of terrorism anymore. 234 00:20:38.779 --> 00:20:45.049 They’re just zapping people, you know, in acts of precrime. The idea of judicial process 235 00:20:45.049 --> 00:20:51.330 or legal process has been replaced by the National Security Agency tracking the metadata 236 00:20:51.330 --> 00:20:58.289 of individuals in various countries, building profiles of where—what telephones are in 237 00:20:58.289 --> 00:21:05.029 contact with other telephones, where particular SIM cards have been physically or geographically. 238 00:21:05.029 --> 00:21:09.169 And then you have a secret process in the White House on these so-called Terror Tuesday 239 00:21:09.169 --> 00:21:16.169 meetings where officials essentially condemn the users of these SIM cards or phones to 240 00:21:17.710 --> 00:21:23.239 death, and then President Obama signs off, and the drone serves as the executioner. That’s 241 00:21:23.239 --> 00:21:28.320 basically the judicial process that the U.S. now offers to people who are actually not 242 00:21:28.320 --> 00:21:31.739 even accused of the crime of terrorism, just perceived by the White House to be involved 243 00:21:31.739 --> 00:21:32.139 with it. 244 00:21:32.139 --> 00:21:36.259 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Jeremy, you’ve mentioned President Obama’s direct involvement in—of 245 00:21:36.259 --> 00:21:42.090 this. I want to turn to him speaking about drone strikes during the first major counterterrorism 246 00:21:42.090 --> 00:21:48.090 address of his second term. His comments came one day after Attorney General Eric Holder 247 00:21:48.090 --> 00:21:52.649 confirmed U.S. drone strikes had killed four American citizens in Yemen and Pakistan. 248 00:21:52.649 --> 00:21:57.769 PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: And before any strike is taken, there must be near certainty that 249 00:21:57.769 --> 00:22:04.749 no civilians will be killed or injured—the highest standard we can set. Yes, the conflict 250 00:22:04.749 --> 00:22:11.749 with al-Qaeda, like all armed conflict, invites tragedy. But by narrowly targeting our action 251 00:22:13.109 --> 00:22:19.749 against those who want to kill us, and not the people they hide among, we are choosing 252 00:22:19.749 --> 00:22:24.730 the course of action least likely to result in the loss of innocent life. 253 00:22:24.730 --> 00:22:26.769 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: That was President Obama. Letta? 254 00:22:26.769 --> 00:22:31.249 LETTA TAYLER: I wanted to point out one thing in this speech. He said, "We’re targeting 255 00:22:31.249 --> 00:22:35.980 those who want to get us, not those they hide among." There is one theory about this December 256 00:22:35.980 --> 00:22:41.409 12th strike on the wedding convoy, that members of AQAP, al-Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula, 257 00:22:41.409 --> 00:22:48.039 the Yemen-based group, may have infiltrated the convoy. If this is true—and I have no 258 00:22:48.039 --> 00:22:52.200 idea that it is; we have no evidence one way or the other that AQAP was actually in this 259 00:22:52.200 --> 00:22:58.320 convoy, but let’s assume for the moment that this might be correct—that shielding—it’s 260 00:22:58.320 --> 00:23:04.210 called human shielding—for AQAP to go into the convoy, would not excuse or exonerate 261 00:23:04.210 --> 00:23:09.429 the—excuse the—would not give the United States the right to attack that convoy. The 262 00:23:09.429 --> 00:23:15.090 United States as an attacking force always has to distinguish between civilians and combatants. 263 00:23:15.090 --> 00:23:19.769 And by combatants, I mean lawful targets. We have a lot of questions as to whether many 264 00:23:19.769 --> 00:23:25.190 of the people being killed who the U.S. considers militants are actually lawful targets. So, 265 00:23:25.190 --> 00:23:30.869 even if AQAP was hiding among these forces, it wouldn’t necessarily mean that that strike 266 00:23:30.869 --> 00:23:31.759 was lawful. 267 00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:37.649 AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking to Letta Tayler, Human Rights Watch senior researcher at Human 268 00:23:37.649 --> 00:23:41.609 Rights Watch, who just came out with this report, "A Wedding That Became a Funeral: 269 00:23:41.609 --> 00:23:46.419 US Drone Attack on Marriage Procession in Yemen." What are the implications of this 270 00:23:46.419 --> 00:23:51.350 report? And what has the U.S. said to you? Have other countries gotten in touch with 271 00:23:51.350 --> 00:23:51.600 you? 272 00:23:51.590 --> 00:23:56.320 LETTA TAYLER: Well, the implications of this report are first that we’re still operating 273 00:23:56.320 --> 00:24:02.659 in a vast accountability vacuum. The United States is saying, "Trust us," yet they’re 274 00:24:02.659 --> 00:24:08.229 not giving us any information that would allow us to trust them. And this sets a very—not 275 00:24:08.229 --> 00:24:12.239 only does this mean that the U.S. may well be violating international law and President 276 00:24:12.239 --> 00:24:17.299 Obama’s own policy, but it sets a very dangerous precedent for countries around the world. 277 00:24:17.299 --> 00:24:23.729 I don’t find it surprising that journalists from Russia and China call us, frequently, 278 00:24:23.729 --> 00:24:29.859 when we come out with a report like this, because there are many leaders in many countries 279 00:24:29.859 --> 00:24:36.859 who are very happy to see the U.S. pave the way for taking out people without any justification, 280 00:24:38.639 --> 00:24:44.350 anytime, anywhere, and simply calling them terrorists or threats to national security. 281 00:24:44.350 --> 00:24:49.789 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Jeremy, have we seen any movement at all on the part of the administration, 282 00:24:49.789 --> 00:24:55.210 given all of the—all of the publicity that has come out about these strikes now, or even 283 00:24:55.210 --> 00:24:59.919 in terms of Congress attempting to rein in the policies of the administration? 284 00:24:59.919 --> 00:25:04.690 JEREMY SCAHILL: Well, I mean, Congress is almost entirely asleep at the wheel when it 285 00:25:04.690 --> 00:25:11.690 comes to oversight or raising serious questions about the drone program or the assassination 286 00:25:11.989 --> 00:25:16.190 policy in general. I mean, the most vocal critics of this program, who have raised some 287 00:25:16.190 --> 00:25:22.559 of the essential questions, are people like Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky, who on many 288 00:25:22.559 --> 00:25:28.799 issues really sounds like a raving lunatic, but on this particular issue, when he filibustered 289 00:25:28.799 --> 00:25:34.489 the nomination of John Brennan, who really was the drone czar of the Obama administration’s 290 00:25:34.489 --> 00:25:41.399 first term, Rand Paul read into the congressional record human rights reports, media reports 291 00:25:41.399 --> 00:25:46.129 about civilians killed. It was the first time that there was discussion on the floor of 292 00:25:46.129 --> 00:25:51.769 the U.S. Senate of American citizens potentially being targeted for assassination in these 293 00:25:51.769 --> 00:25:52.659 drone strikes. 294 00:25:52.659 --> 00:25:59.659 But, you know, polls indicate that a solid percentage of self-identified liberal Democrats 295 00:25:59.789 --> 00:26:03.840 support the White House on this, and that’s in part due to the fact that President Obama 296 00:26:03.840 --> 00:26:09.519 has projected—and it really boils down to propaganda—that this is somehow a cleaner 297 00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:16.519 way of waging war. I think also, politically, many Democrats would be opposing these policies 298 00:26:16.850 --> 00:26:21.070 or raising serious questions if their guy wasn’t in the White House. If McCain or 299 00:26:21.070 --> 00:26:26.489 Mitt Romney had won those elections, I think we would see a more robust discussion in Congress 300 00:26:26.489 --> 00:26:27.059 on this. 301 00:26:27.059 --> 00:26:32.850 But President Obama said in his major address, and then his administration has released papers 302 00:26:32.850 --> 00:26:37.999 saying that among the standards is not just that mere certainty that civilians will not 303 00:26:37.999 --> 00:26:43.080 be killed, but also that the individuals that they’re targeting represent an imminent 304 00:26:43.080 --> 00:26:49.809 threat and that they—and that capture is not feasible. And I think that those two factors 305 00:26:49.809 --> 00:26:55.100 in this should also be investigated, because I don’t believe that the majority of the 306 00:26:55.100 --> 00:27:00.359 people that are killed in these drone strikes are engaged in an imminent plot that’s going 307 00:27:00.359 --> 00:27:06.279 to harm America’s national security or American interests, even as broadly as the Obama administration 308 00:27:06.279 --> 00:27:07.119 defines it. 309 00:27:07.119 --> 00:27:11.629 I mean, we really—this should be brought up at an international level, because the 310 00:27:11.629 --> 00:27:16.529 U.S., as Letta says, is setting a standard. There are some 80 countries in the world that 311 00:27:16.529 --> 00:27:21.330 have weaponized drone technology. It’s just a matter of time before a Russia or a China 312 00:27:21.330 --> 00:27:25.200 says, "You know what? America does this. We have the right to do it, too," and they start 313 00:27:25.200 --> 00:27:29.539 doing drone attacks to take out dissidents or people that they perceive to be terrorists. 314 00:27:29.539 --> 00:27:32.909 Every nation around the world now claims that it’s in a war against terrorism. I was just 315 00:27:32.909 --> 00:27:38.869 in Egypt, where the U.S.-backed dictatorship of General Sisi is in power, and there are 316 00:27:38.869 --> 00:27:44.269 huge posters all over Egypt that talk about how the Egyptian government is in a war against 317 00:27:44.269 --> 00:27:48.570 terrorism. It’s really a cooptation of this Bush-Cheney idea, that Obama unfortunately 318 00:27:48.570 --> 00:27:53.139 has continued, that if you just label your enemies as terrorists, you can justify doing 319 00:27:53.139 --> 00:27:57.519 anything to them and justify denying them of any basic rights. You can’t surrender 320 00:27:57.519 --> 00:28:01.279 to a drone, and you can’t turn yourself in when you haven’t been charged with a 321 00:28:01.279 --> 00:28:02.869 crime. To what authority do you surrender? 322 00:28:02.869 --> 00:28:07.409 AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you both for being with us. Jeremy Scahill, co-founder 323 00:28:07.409 --> 00:28:11.979 of TheIntercept.org, a new digital magazine published by First Look Media, also the producer 324 00:28:11.979 --> 00:28:17.999 and writer of the documentary Dirty Wars, which has been nominated for an Oscar. Congratulations, 325 00:28:17.999 --> 00:28:22.249 Jeremy, and good luck on your road to the Oscars, which will be on March 2nd. And Letta 326 00:28:22.249 --> 00:28:26.470 Tayler, senior researcher on terrorism and counterterrorism at Human Rights Watch. Her 327 00:28:26.470 --> 00:28:30.210 report, "A Wedding That Became a Funeral: US Drone Attack on Marriage Procession in 328 00:28:30.210 --> 00:28:33.159 Yemen," we’ll link to at democracynow.org. 329 00:28:33.159 --> 00:28:39.820 This is the 18th birthday of Democracy Now!, and in our breaks, we are showing folks and 330 00:28:39.820 --> 00:28:46.820 encouraging people to go to our website at democracynow.org and submit pictures of yourself 331 00:28:47.059 --> 00:28:51.840 holding up signs that say, "I need Democracy Now! because..." and you fill in the rest 332 00:28:51.840 --> 00:28:58.840 or send us videos, as well. Stay with us. 333 00:29:24.029 --> 00:29:31.029 [break] 334 00:29:31.720 --> 00:29:38.720 AMY GOODMAN: That’s Patti Smith, "People Have the Power," and I thank all the people 335 00:30:19.599 --> 00:30:23.950 from all over the world who are sending in pictures and videos letting us know what you 336 00:30:23.950 --> 00:30:28.690 think. Again, you can go to our website at democracynow.org . And I’m also thinking 337 00:30:28.690 --> 00:30:35.599 today about Julie Drizin, who was the first producer of Democracy Now!, and also our colleague 338 00:30:35.599 --> 00:30:42.359 Sharif Abdel Kouddous, who is in Cairo, in Egypt, and our colleagues Anjali Kamat and 339 00:30:42.359 --> 00:30:47.849 Nicole Salazar and so many others who make—helped make this program great, as well as Kris Abrams 340 00:30:47.849 --> 00:30:52.249 out there in Colorado. Well, I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. We’ve been with you 341 00:30:52.249 --> 00:30:55.349 for 18 years, as we turn to another story. 342 00:30:55.349 --> 00:30:59.570 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Now we turn to the story of a University of California scientist who discovered 343 00:30:59.570 --> 00:31:04.909 that a popular herbicide may have harmful effects on the endocrine system. Tyrone Hayes 344 00:31:04.909 --> 00:31:11.590 was first hired in 1997 by a company that later became agribusiness giant Syngenta. 345 00:31:11.590 --> 00:31:17.619 They asked him to study their product, atrazine, a pesticide that is applied to more than half 346 00:31:17.619 --> 00:31:23.889 the corn crops in the United States and widely used on golf courses and Christmas tree farms. 347 00:31:23.889 --> 00:31:30.450 But after Hayes found results that the manufacturer did not expect, that atrazine causes sexual 348 00:31:30.450 --> 00:31:35.690 abnormalities in frogs and could cause the same problems for humans, Syngenta refused 349 00:31:35.690 --> 00:31:40.239 to allow him to publish his work. This was the the start of an epic feud between the 350 00:31:40.239 --> 00:31:41.950 scientist and the corporation. 351 00:31:41.950 --> 00:31:45.820 AMY GOODMAN: Now a new article in The New Yorker magazine uses court documents from 352 00:31:45.820 --> 00:31:50.299 a class action lawsuit against Syngenta to show how it sought to prevent the Environmental 353 00:31:50.299 --> 00:31:55.859 Protection Agency from banning the profitable chemical, which is already banned by the European 354 00:31:55.859 --> 00:32:01.299 Union. To start with, the company’s public relations team drafted a list of four goals. 355 00:32:01.299 --> 00:32:07.309 Reporter Rachel Aviv writes, quote, "The first was [quote] 'discredit Hayes.' In a spiral-bound 356 00:32:07.309 --> 00:32:11.669 notebook, Syngenta’s communications manager, Sherry Ford, who referred to Hayes by his 357 00:32:11.669 --> 00:32:18.669 initials, wrote that the company could 'prevent citing of TH data by revealing him as noncredible.' 358 00:32:19.719 --> 00:32:23.679 He was a frequent topic of conversation at company meetings. Syngenta looked for ways 359 00:32:23.679 --> 00:32:30.309 to 'exploit Hayes' faults/problems.’ 'If TH involved in scandal, enviros will drop 360 00:32:30.309 --> 00:32:31.359 him,' Ford wrote." 361 00:32:31.359 --> 00:32:36.710 Well, for more, we’re joined by TH himself. That’s right, Tyrone Hayes is with us, professor 362 00:32:36.710 --> 00:32:41.779 of integrative biology at the University of California, Berkeley, joining us from the 363 00:32:41.779 --> 00:32:45.090 campus TV station right now in Berkeley. 364 00:32:45.090 --> 00:32:50.820 Welcome to Democracy Now! Can you tell us what happened to you, how you were originally 365 00:32:50.820 --> 00:32:56.429 tied to Syngenta, the research you did, and what prevented you from originally publishing 366 00:32:56.429 --> 00:32:57.159 it? 367 00:32:57.159 --> 00:33:03.259 TYRONE HAYES: Well, here at Berkeley, I was a new assistant professor. I was already studying 368 00:33:03.259 --> 00:33:07.289 the effects of hormones and the effects of chemicals that interfere with hormones on 369 00:33:07.289 --> 00:33:11.200 amphibian development. And I was approached by the manufacturer and asked to study the 370 00:33:11.200 --> 00:33:17.769 effects of atrazine, the herbicide, on frogs. And after I discovered that it interfered 371 00:33:17.769 --> 00:33:23.529 with male development and caused males to turn into females, to develop eggs, the company 372 00:33:23.529 --> 00:33:27.749 tried to prevent me from publishing and from discussing that work with other scientists 373 00:33:27.749 --> 00:33:29.389 outside of their panel. 374 00:33:29.389 --> 00:33:35.129 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: What was the process within the company? As you raised your findings, 375 00:33:35.129 --> 00:33:39.729 what was their immediate reaction to what you had come across? 376 00:33:39.729 --> 00:33:45.669 TYRONE HAYES: Well, initially they seemed sort of supportive. You know, we designed 377 00:33:45.669 --> 00:33:50.609 more studies. We designed more analysis. And they encouraged me to do more analysis. But 378 00:33:50.609 --> 00:33:55.690 as the further analysis just supported the original finding, they became less interested 379 00:33:55.690 --> 00:34:01.739 in moving forward very quickly, and eventually they moved to asking me to manipulate data 380 00:34:01.739 --> 00:34:07.539 or to misrepresent data, and ultimately they told me I could not publish or could not talk 381 00:34:07.539 --> 00:34:10.359 about the data outside of their closed panel. 382 00:34:10.359 --> 00:34:16.129 AMY GOODMAN: And, Professor Hayes, talk about exactly what you found. What were the abnormalities 383 00:34:16.129 --> 00:34:21.919 you found in frogs, the gender-bending nature of this drug atrazine? 384 00:34:21.919 --> 00:34:27.359 TYRONE HAYES: Well, initially, we found that the larynx, or the voice box, in exposed males 385 00:34:27.359 --> 00:34:32.309 didn’t grow properly. And this was an indication that the male hormone testosterone was not 386 00:34:32.309 --> 00:34:37.859 being produced at appropriate levels. And eventually we found that not only were these 387 00:34:37.859 --> 00:34:44.169 males demasculinized, or chemically castrated, but they also were starting to develop ovaries 388 00:34:44.169 --> 00:34:48.940 or starting to develop eggs. And eventually we discovered that these males didn’t breed 389 00:34:48.940 --> 00:34:53.179 properly, that some of the males actually completely turned into females. So we had 390 00:34:53.179 --> 00:34:57.700 genetic males that were laying eggs and reproducing as females. And now we’re starting to show 391 00:34:57.700 --> 00:35:02.529 that some of these males actually show, I guess what we’d call homosexual behavior. 392 00:35:02.529 --> 00:35:05.430 They actually prefer to mate with other males. 393 00:35:05.430 --> 00:35:08.260 AMY GOODMAN: And so, where did you go with your research? 394 00:35:08.260 --> 00:35:15.260 TYRONE HAYES: Well, eventually, what happened was the EPA insisted that—the Environmental 395 00:35:15.420 --> 00:35:20.480 Protection Agency insisted that the manufacturer release me from the confidentiality contract. 396 00:35:20.480 --> 00:35:25.130 And we published our findings in pretty high-ranking journals, such as Proceedings of the National 397 00:35:25.130 --> 00:35:30.470 Academy of Sciences. We published some work in Nature. We published work in Environmental 398 00:35:30.470 --> 00:35:34.670 Health Perspectives, which is a journal sponsored by the National Institutes of Health. 399 00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:38.970 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And when did you begin to get a sense that the company was organizing 400 00:35:38.970 --> 00:35:45.970 a campaign against you? What were the signs that you saw post the period when you published 401 00:35:46.599 --> 00:35:47.900 your findings? 402 00:35:47.900 --> 00:35:53.470 TYRONE HAYES: Before we published the findings and before the EPA became involved, the company 403 00:35:53.470 --> 00:35:57.430 tried to purchase the data. They tried to give me a new contract so that they would 404 00:35:57.430 --> 00:36:01.720 then control the data and the experiments. They actually tried to get me to come and 405 00:36:01.720 --> 00:36:06.190 visit the company to get control of those data. And when I refused, I invited them to 406 00:36:06.190 --> 00:36:10.329 the university, I offered to share data, but they wanted to purchase the data. And then 407 00:36:10.329 --> 00:36:14.930 they actually—as mentioned in the New Yorker article, they actually hired scientists to 408 00:36:14.930 --> 00:36:19.799 try to refute the data or to pick apart the data, and eventually they hired scientists 409 00:36:19.799 --> 00:36:23.140 to do experiments that they claim refuted our data. 410 00:36:23.140 --> 00:36:28.849 And then that escalated to the company actually—Tim Pastoor, in particular, and others from the 411 00:36:28.849 --> 00:36:34.660 company—coming to presentations that—or lectures that I was giving, to make handouts 412 00:36:34.660 --> 00:36:39.990 or to stand up and refute the data, and eventually even led to things like threats of violence. 413 00:36:39.990 --> 00:36:45.079 Tim Pastoor, for example, before I would give a talk, would literally threaten, whisper 414 00:36:45.079 --> 00:36:49.000 in my ear that he could have me lynched, or he would—quote, said he would "send some 415 00:36:49.000 --> 00:36:53.510 of his good ol’ boys to show me what it’s like to be gay," or at one point he threatened 416 00:36:53.510 --> 00:36:58.609 my wife and my daughter with sexual violence. He would whisper things like, "Your wife’s 417 00:36:58.609 --> 00:37:02.349 at home alone right now. How do you know I haven’t sent somebody there to take care 418 00:37:02.349 --> 00:37:06.510 of her? Isn’t your daughter there?" So, eventually, it really slipped into some, you 419 00:37:06.510 --> 00:37:08.619 know, pretty scary tactics. 420 00:37:08.619 --> 00:37:14.930 AMY GOODMAN: So, what did you do? I mean, you’re actually—I mean, this is very serious. 421 00:37:14.930 --> 00:37:19.410 You could bring criminal charges if you’re being threatened and stalked in this way. 422 00:37:19.410 --> 00:37:25.549 TYRONE HAYES: Well, initially, I went to my vice chancellor here at the university. I 423 00:37:25.549 --> 00:37:30.380 went to my dean. I went to legal counsel here at the university. And I was told by legal 424 00:37:30.380 --> 00:37:33.650 counsel that—well, I was told, first of all, by the vice chancellor for research at 425 00:37:33.650 --> 00:37:37.049 the time that, "Well, you published the work. It’s over. So I don’t understand what 426 00:37:37.049 --> 00:37:41.549 the problem is." And I tried to impress upon her, Beth Burnside, at the time that—you 427 00:37:41.549 --> 00:37:47.210 know, that it wasn’t over, that I was really being pursued by the manufacturer. And eventually, 428 00:37:47.210 --> 00:37:52.150 when I spoke with the lawyer here at the University, I was told that, "Well, I represent the university, 429 00:37:52.150 --> 00:37:55.849 and I protect the university from liability. You’re kind of on your own." And I remember 430 00:37:55.849 --> 00:38:00.980 I looked at him, and I said, "But the very university, from the Latin universitas, is 431 00:38:00.980 --> 00:38:06.250 a collection of scholars, of teachers and students, so who is this entity, the university, 432 00:38:06.250 --> 00:38:09.849 that you represent that doesn’t include me?" But clearly there’s some entity that 433 00:38:09.849 --> 00:38:14.910 doesn’t really include us, the professors and students, and doesn’t really protect 434 00:38:14.910 --> 00:38:17.289 our academic freedom, I think, the way that it should. 435 00:38:17.289 --> 00:38:21.510 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to ask you about one of your critics, Elizabeth Whelan, president 436 00:38:21.510 --> 00:38:26.770 of the American Council on Science and Health. When The New York Times ran a critical story 437 00:38:26.770 --> 00:38:32.710 about the herbicide as part of its toxic water series in 2009, she referred to its reporting 438 00:38:32.710 --> 00:38:38.250 as, quote, "all the news that’s fit to scare." This is a clip of Whelan from an interview 439 00:38:38.250 --> 00:38:39.289 on MSNBC. 440 00:38:39.289 --> 00:38:43.799 ELIZABETH WHELAN: I very much disagree with the New York Times story, which is really 441 00:38:43.799 --> 00:38:49.910 raising concerns about a totally bogus risk. Atrazine has been used for more than 50 years. 442 00:38:49.910 --> 00:38:54.630 It’s very, very tightly regulated. Even the Environmental Protection Agency, which 443 00:38:54.630 --> 00:38:59.720 is not known for soft-pedaling about environmental chemicals, even they say it’s safe. 444 00:38:59.720 --> 00:39:04.740 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, it turns out that Syngenta has been a long-term financial supporter of 445 00:39:04.740 --> 00:39:08.720 Whelan’s organization, the American Council on Science and Health, paying them at least 446 00:39:08.720 --> 00:39:13.130 $100,000. Your comments on her remarks? 447 00:39:13.130 --> 00:39:18.349 TYRONE HAYES: Well, again, they’re paid remarks. And one of the most disheartening 448 00:39:18.349 --> 00:39:22.430 things in this whole process is that many of my critics—you know, it’s one to be 449 00:39:22.430 --> 00:39:26.250 academic, if you come and say, "Well, we interpreted the data this way, and we want to argue about 450 00:39:26.250 --> 00:39:30.599 this point," but these people really didn’t even have an opinion. These opinions were 451 00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:35.549 written by the manufacturer, and they were paid to put their names on them, to endorse 452 00:39:35.549 --> 00:39:38.720 the opinions of the manufacturer. So, you know, that’s one of the most disheartening 453 00:39:38.720 --> 00:39:42.829 things, that they were really just personalities for sale. 454 00:39:42.829 --> 00:39:47.279 And many of the things that she’s saying there is just not true. There are—any independent 455 00:39:47.279 --> 00:39:51.940 study, from any scientist that’s not funded by Syngenta, has found similar problems with 456 00:39:51.940 --> 00:39:56.049 atrazine, not just my work on frogs. But I’ve just published a paper with 22 scientists 457 00:39:56.049 --> 00:40:00.599 from around the world, from 12 different countries, who have shown that atrazine causes sexual 458 00:40:00.599 --> 00:40:06.049 problems in mammals, that atrazine causes sexual problems in birds, amphibians, fish. 459 00:40:06.049 --> 00:40:08.829 So it’s not just my work in amphibians. 460 00:40:08.829 --> 00:40:15.630 And also, with regards to the EPA, one of the scientific advisory panel members on the 461 00:40:15.630 --> 00:40:21.589 EPA that was supposed to review atrazine turns out is paid and works for Syngenta. So the 462 00:40:21.589 --> 00:40:27.299 whole process was tainted. And, in fact, the EPA ignored the scientific advisory panel’s 463 00:40:27.299 --> 00:40:31.500 opinion and actually decided to keep atrazine on the market and not to do any more studies, 464 00:40:31.500 --> 00:40:34.250 when that clearly wasn’t the recommendation of the scientific advisory panel. 465 00:40:34.250 --> 00:40:37.490 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I wanted to go back just a second to your remarks about your university, 466 00:40:37.490 --> 00:40:41.910 because obviously there are many questions about major universities around the country 467 00:40:41.910 --> 00:40:47.660 being, in some way or other, supported financially by the pharmaceutical or the drug industry. 468 00:40:47.660 --> 00:40:53.019 But you are at a prestigious university, one of the top universities in the country, at 469 00:40:53.019 --> 00:40:59.720 Berkeley. Do you have some concerns about how your university responded to your—in 470 00:40:59.720 --> 00:41:04.180 your time of need, and the attack on your academic integrity? 471 00:41:04.180 --> 00:41:08.819 TYRONE HAYES: Well, they’re not just my concerns. There are many at the university 472 00:41:08.819 --> 00:41:13.849 who fear that the university is just becoming a corporation. You know, we’re a public 473 00:41:13.849 --> 00:41:20.849 university that used to get a lot more support from the state. In my lifetime, tuition was 474 00:41:20.859 --> 00:41:25.640 free for students. Tuition has been rising. And it’s really an effort to monetize things, 475 00:41:25.640 --> 00:41:29.680 and that includes scientific researchers. There’s a lot of pressure on us not just 476 00:41:29.680 --> 00:41:34.390 to be scholars and to teach and to do research, but also to bring in funds that will support 477 00:41:34.390 --> 00:41:39.359 the university. So there’s some sentiment from the university that if you are raising 478 00:41:39.359 --> 00:41:44.910 a concern potentially that might cause the university to lose support or to lose funders, 479 00:41:44.910 --> 00:41:48.809 then you won’t necessarily get the support on the campus that you need. And we’ve seen 480 00:41:48.809 --> 00:41:53.839 this over and over again. A colleague of mine, Ignacio Chapela, for example, was in a fairly 481 00:41:53.839 --> 00:41:58.859 huge battle over the same company, Novartis, and its influences over scientific research 482 00:41:58.859 --> 00:41:59.910 at the university. 483 00:41:59.910 --> 00:42:05.589 AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the significance of Syngenta? First of all, is it a significant 484 00:42:05.589 --> 00:42:11.490 presence at the university, at UC Berkeley? But also, the significance of Syngenta as 485 00:42:11.490 --> 00:42:15.640 a pesticide company and all that it makes, how powerful is it? 486 00:42:15.640 --> 00:42:21.960 TYRONE HAYES: Well, when they were—when I was originally consulting for the manufacturer, 487 00:42:21.960 --> 00:42:26.859 they were Novartis at the time. And Novartis had a big influence on the campus. There was 488 00:42:26.859 --> 00:42:31.650 a major deal on the campus. I understand a fifth of the biological sciences’ support 489 00:42:31.650 --> 00:42:37.359 was coming from Novartis. And at the time, they both made pesticides, and they made pharmaceuticals. 490 00:42:37.359 --> 00:42:43.069 One of my big concerns is that, as of the year 2000—prior to the year 2000, Novartis 491 00:42:43.069 --> 00:42:48.730 not only made atrazine, which is used on corn, of course, which is an herbicide, but it also 492 00:42:48.730 --> 00:42:53.779 induces an enzyme called aromatase. It causes you to make too much estrogen. And it’s 493 00:42:53.779 --> 00:42:58.730 now been shown that this herbicide, atrazine, and this mechanism, is potentially involved 494 00:42:58.730 --> 00:43:03.589 in development of breast cancer, for example. Up until 2000, the company also made a chemical 495 00:43:03.589 --> 00:43:08.680 called letrozole, which did exactly the opposite: It blocked aromatase, it blocked this enzyme, 496 00:43:08.680 --> 00:43:12.819 it blocked estrogen production. And this chemical, letrozole, is the number one treatment for 497 00:43:12.819 --> 00:43:19.019 breast cancer. So this company was simultaneously in 2000 making a chemical that induced estrogen 498 00:43:19.019 --> 00:43:23.970 and promoted breast cancer, and making a chemical that blocked estrogen production and was being 499 00:43:23.970 --> 00:43:28.579 used to treat breast cancer. So there’s a clear conflict of interest there, a clear 500 00:43:28.579 --> 00:43:29.029 problem. 501 00:43:29.029 --> 00:43:33.099 The other problems are that something like 90 percent of the seeds that we use to produce 502 00:43:33.099 --> 00:43:38.240 our food right now are owned by the big six pesticide companies. So, again, there’s 503 00:43:38.240 --> 00:43:45.240 a conflict of interest where the companies have an interest in, I guess, getting us addicted 504 00:43:45.710 --> 00:43:50.119 to the pesticides, to grow the seeds that they also own. And Syngenta, of course, is 505 00:43:50.119 --> 00:43:54.750 one of those big six, one of the big pesticide or agribusiness companies. 506 00:43:54.750 --> 00:44:01.750 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And a New Yorker that delves into your story also says that you came to 507 00:44:02.240 --> 00:44:06.500 find out that the company was also reading your emails. Could you talk about that? 508 00:44:06.500 --> 00:44:11.760 TYRONE HAYES: Well, I originally—I had some suspicion that they had hacked into my email. 509 00:44:11.760 --> 00:44:16.700 And originally found out—there was a professor at Minnesota, and I was going there to give 510 00:44:16.700 --> 00:44:22.339 a big lecture, and this professor in the School of Public Health, Deb Dubenofsky, said that 511 00:44:22.339 --> 00:44:26.789 she happened to be standing in line at the airport, flying back to Minnesota, and just 512 00:44:26.789 --> 00:44:31.990 by coincidence she was standing behind somebody who was having a conversation on his cellphone 513 00:44:31.990 --> 00:44:35.819 and who identified himself as an employee of Syngenta, and he made the statement, "We 514 00:44:35.819 --> 00:44:39.640 have access to his email. We know where he is at all times." So it wasn’t just paranoia 515 00:44:39.640 --> 00:44:45.029 on my part. I had direct evidence that they had access to my email. And at the time, I 516 00:44:45.029 --> 00:44:49.940 maintained a second and a third email that I could keep private, and I actually used 517 00:44:49.940 --> 00:44:54.670 that information, that they had access to my email, to send them information, and sometimes 518 00:44:54.670 --> 00:44:59.510 false information—for example, booking plane tickets through that email, because then I 519 00:44:59.510 --> 00:45:02.839 could sent them to the wrong place, so they wouldn’t necessarily be there to follow 520 00:45:02.839 --> 00:45:04.480 me when I was going to speak in other places. 521 00:45:04.480 --> 00:45:08.460 AMY GOODMAN: I mean, Professor Hayes, this is stunning stuff that came out in this class 522 00:45:08.460 --> 00:45:12.980 action suit. The suit wasn’t brought by you, but the documents that came out that 523 00:45:12.980 --> 00:45:19.670 referenced you, Tyrone Hayes, TH, and trying to discredit you, trying to discredit your 524 00:45:19.670 --> 00:45:26.670 family, talk—that was a lawsuit that involved atrazine contaminating water supplies. 525 00:45:27.369 --> 00:45:27.690 TYRONE HAYES: Yes. 526 00:45:27.690 --> 00:45:31.650 AMY GOODMAN: But what was your reaction when you saw this? You suspected this. You felt 527 00:45:31.650 --> 00:45:36.289 you were being followed. You felt you were—they were trying to discredit you. But now you 528 00:45:36.289 --> 00:45:37.569 had the documents. 529 00:45:37.569 --> 00:45:43.299 TYRONE HAYES: Well, you know, it’s funny. You know, the way the article reads, that 530 00:45:43.299 --> 00:45:48.440 I suspected—I mean, I knew. I knew Tim Pastoor. I knew Sherry Ford. I knew many of the individuals 531 00:45:48.440 --> 00:45:52.380 who would follow me around. I knew who they were. I knew they had access to my email. 532 00:45:52.380 --> 00:45:56.750 You know, so, for me, I knew that these things were happening. This guy would directly come 533 00:45:56.750 --> 00:46:01.210 up and make lewd comments to me and threatening comments to me. But it was the kind of thing 534 00:46:01.210 --> 00:46:04.160 where, you know, it sounded like something out of a movie. I couldn’t go and tell my 535 00:46:04.160 --> 00:46:06.960 colleagues, like, "They’re following me around, and, you know, they’re hacking into 536 00:46:06.960 --> 00:46:07.430 my email"— 537 00:46:07.430 --> 00:46:08.039 AMY GOODMAN: Did you record? 538 00:46:08.039 --> 00:46:08.289 TYRONE HAYES: —because I would look crazy. 539 00:46:08.119 --> 00:46:10.019 AMY GOODMAN: Did you put on a tape recorder? 540 00:46:10.019 --> 00:46:15.769 TYRONE HAYES: You know, what I found—here’s how I’ll answer that question. What I found 541 00:46:15.769 --> 00:46:22.299 out, that it was much more powerful for me to suggest and have them think that I recorded 542 00:46:22.299 --> 00:46:26.049 everything than for them to actually know what I recorded. And that actually became 543 00:46:26.049 --> 00:46:30.180 sort of my protection. So, when this guy came up and threatened me and threatened my wife, 544 00:46:30.180 --> 00:46:34.099 to then go back and go, "Oh, my god, did he record that or not?" So, it was much more 545 00:46:34.099 --> 00:46:37.890 powerful for me to have them think that. But you can see in their handwritten notes that 546 00:46:37.890 --> 00:46:42.079 they were very concerned that I was recording conversations. There’s notes that they wanted 547 00:46:42.079 --> 00:46:45.589 to trap me, to entice me to sue, and these kinds of things. 548 00:46:45.589 --> 00:46:50.130 And my reaction now, to see it all in The New Yorker and for—you know, all this open 549 00:46:50.130 --> 00:46:53.960 for the world to see, is—there are two reactions. One is, I can’t believe they wrote these 550 00:46:53.960 --> 00:46:58.000 kinds of things down, right? That you’re plotting to, you know, investigate me and 551 00:46:58.000 --> 00:47:01.829 investigate my school and investigate my hometown and all these kinds of things, and you wrote 552 00:47:01.829 --> 00:47:06.309 it down. But my other response is, this is quite analogous to, you know, when you hear 553 00:47:06.309 --> 00:47:09.279 these stories of somebody who’s been in jail for murder for 10 years, and then the 554 00:47:09.279 --> 00:47:12.460 DNA evidence gets them out, you know, and you ask them, "Are you happy?" Well, of course 555 00:47:12.460 --> 00:47:15.980 I’m happy, but I’ve also been in jail for 10 years. You know what I mean? So, of 556 00:47:15.980 --> 00:47:19.210 course I’m happy now that these documents have all been revealed, but it’s also been 557 00:47:19.210 --> 00:47:23.359 a very difficult time for me for the last—and for my family, you know, for the last 10 or 558 00:47:23.359 --> 00:47:27.119 15 years, for my students, as well, for the last 10 or 15 years, to be pursued this way 559 00:47:27.119 --> 00:47:30.910 and to be under a microscope this way and to feel threatened this way for so long. 560 00:47:30.910 --> 00:47:36.240 AMY GOODMAN: As we wrap up, what’s happening with atrazine today? Where does it stand? 561 00:47:36.240 --> 00:47:39.569 TYRONE HAYES: It’s still on the market. We’re still studying it. A number of studies 562 00:47:39.569 --> 00:47:44.099 are still coming out from around the world. One recent study has shown that male babies 563 00:47:44.099 --> 00:47:49.400 that are exposed in utero to atrazine, their genitals don’t develop properly. Their penis 564 00:47:49.400 --> 00:47:53.160 doesn’t develop properly, or they get microphallus. There are studies showing that sperm count 565 00:47:53.160 --> 00:47:57.289 goes down when you’re exposed to atrazine. And this is not just laboratory animals or 566 00:47:57.289 --> 00:48:02.109 animals in the wild; this is also humans. We use the same hormones that animals do for 567 00:48:02.109 --> 00:48:05.809 our reproduction. And it’s a big threat to environmental health and public health. 568 00:48:05.809 --> 00:48:09.789 AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you very much for being with us, Tyrone Hayes, a professor 569 00:48:09.789 --> 00:48:13.450 of integrative biology at the University of California, Berkeley, who’s devoted the 570 00:48:13.450 --> 00:48:18.930 past 15 years to studying atrazine, a widely used herbicide made by Syngenta. We’ll link 571 00:48:18.930 --> 00:48:23.400 to the article in The New Yorker magazine that reveals how the company tried to discredit 572 00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:28.119 Professor Hayes after his research showed atrazine causes sexual abnormalities in frogs 573 00:48:28.119 --> 00:48:33.309 and could cause the same problems for humans. The article is called "A Valuable Reputation: 574 00:48:33.309 --> 00:48:38.130 After Tyrone Hayes Said That a Chemical was Harmful, Its Maker Pursued Him." This is Democracy 575 00:48:38.130 --> 00:48:45.130 Now! We’ll be back 576 00:49:45.410 --> 00:49:52.410 in a minute. 577 00:49:52.759 --> 00:49:59.759 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: We end today’s show with a look at how much of the lobbying money spent 578 00:50:01.759 --> 00:50:07.309 on shaping policy in Washington is going unreported. For the third straight year, the official 579 00:50:07.309 --> 00:50:11.859 amount spent by lobbyists has declined, and the number of registered lobbyists is the 580 00:50:11.859 --> 00:50:13.740 lowest it’s been in more than a decade. 581 00:50:13.740 --> 00:50:17.170 AMY GOODMAN: But a new cover story in The Nation magazine reveals how these numbers 582 00:50:17.170 --> 00:50:22.059 are misleading. It’s headlined "The Shadow Lobbying Complex: On Paper, Influence Peddling 583 00:50:22.059 --> 00:50:25.069 Has Declined. In Reality, It Has Gone Underground." 584 00:50:25.069 --> 00:50:28.569 For more, we go to San Francisco, where we’re joined by its author, Lee Fang, reporting 585 00:50:28.569 --> 00:50:31.640 fellow with the Investigative Fund at The Nation Institute. 586 00:50:31.640 --> 00:50:36.750 Welcome back to Democracy Now!, Lee. Just lay out just what this is, the shadow lobbying 587 00:50:36.750 --> 00:50:37.509 complex. 588 00:50:37.509 --> 00:50:44.509 LEE FANG: Good morning. My new story for The Nation looks into federal lobbying laws and 589 00:50:45.660 --> 00:50:52.660 the state of American lobbying. As you mentioned, on paper, the lobbying industry is decreasing. 590 00:50:52.789 --> 00:50:59.789 The number of registered lobbyists are shrinking. The amount spent is going down precipitously 591 00:51:00.220 --> 00:51:07.130 every year. But in reality, the influence industry, as it’s known, is growing very 592 00:51:07.130 --> 00:51:12.779 quickly. It’s becoming more sophisticated. Companies are spending more and more to influence 593 00:51:12.779 --> 00:51:18.589 policy. And in many ways, corporations are extending their reach and hiring as many lobbyists 594 00:51:18.589 --> 00:51:20.890 as they can as this industry grows. 595 00:51:20.890 --> 00:51:27.289 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, when President Obama was campaigning in 2008 and he came into office, 596 00:51:27.289 --> 00:51:32.829 he declared a virtual war, supposedly, on lobbyists, had an executive order banning 597 00:51:32.829 --> 00:51:39.279 lobbyists from his administration. Has that had anything to do with these lobbyists attempting 598 00:51:39.279 --> 00:51:43.440 now to go underground in terms of how they spend their money and how they influence legislation? 599 00:51:43.440 --> 00:51:49.529 LEE FANG: That’s right. And this is one of the big ironies of the Obama administration. 600 00:51:49.529 --> 00:51:55.009 President Obama campaigned vigorously in 2008 against the influence and the outsized influence 601 00:51:55.009 --> 00:52:00.549 of corporate lobbyists in American politics. He promised to drain the swamp and to come 602 00:52:00.549 --> 00:52:07.549 into office and enact stronger ethics reforms. But the only real enforcement or official 603 00:52:07.609 --> 00:52:14.609 action that he took was an executive order right when he got into office to not allow 604 00:52:14.740 --> 00:52:21.740 registered lobbyists into his administration. The catch was, many lobbyists simply de-registered, 605 00:52:21.900 --> 00:52:27.789 pushing the system more into the shadows, more into the darkness, and leading to where 606 00:52:27.789 --> 00:52:34.119 we are today. And the administration, at the same time, started issuing exemptions to still 607 00:52:34.119 --> 00:52:41.119 allow registered lobbyists into the Obama administration. So, little has changed. If 608 00:52:41.289 --> 00:52:45.480 anything, Obama’s only action on lobbying has made the system worse. 609 00:52:45.480 --> 00:52:50.109 AMY GOODMAN: Lee Fang, you encountered Zach Wamp, a former Republican politician, telling 610 00:52:50.109 --> 00:52:55.160 members of Congress he manages operations for Palantir, a controversial big data company 611 00:52:55.160 --> 00:52:58.769 that does work for intelligence agencies. I want to play a clip of the video of you 612 00:52:58.769 --> 00:53:03.420 questioning him about the scandals associated with the firm, which include allegations that 613 00:53:03.420 --> 00:53:06.190 they spied on activists. This is a clip of your encounter. 614 00:53:06.190 --> 00:53:13.190 LEE FANG: Former Congressman, can I ask you, what are you doing now for Palantir? 615 00:53:14.759 --> 00:53:21.049 ZACH WAMP: What am I doing for Palantir? LEE FANG: Yeah. 616 00:53:21.049 --> 00:53:24.970 ZACH WAMP: What do you know about Palantir? LEE FANG: I just heard you say you’re working 617 00:53:24.970 --> 00:53:25.309 for Palantir a couple days a week. ZACH WAMP: No, a couple days a month. 618 00:53:25.309 --> 00:53:25.559 LEE FANG: Couple days a month. How’s that going? 619 00:53:25.509 --> 00:53:25.849 ZACH WAMP: It’s going great. It’s a great Silicon Valley-based company that does a lot 620 00:53:25.849 --> 00:53:28.490 of private sector solutions that now the—have a lot of government applications on the intelligence 621 00:53:28.490 --> 00:53:35.490 side—big data—saving the government a lot of money. So I’m kind of overseeing 622 00:53:37.720 --> 00:53:38.259 their operations up here. LEE FANG: Have you followed the story that 623 00:53:38.259 --> 00:53:41.289 they were also working for some private interests, like the U.S. Chamber, to develop a domestic 624 00:53:41.289 --> 00:53:43.309 spying program on liberals? ZACH WAMP: I don’t know anything about that. 625 00:53:43.309 --> 00:53:50.309 LEE FANG: Do you think there’s any type of civil liberty problem with these big data 626 00:53:51.380 --> 00:53:58.380 firms that are working for spy—or intelligence—agencies, then using that same technology in the private 627 00:53:59.309 --> 00:54:03.309 sector? ZACH WAMP: I know nothing about that, so [inaudible]. 628 00:54:03.309 --> 00:54:08.109 LEE FANG: OK. May I ask you how much they’re paying you? 629 00:54:08.109 --> 00:54:11.009 ZACH WAMP: No, it’s a private [inaudible]. LEE FANG: I know. I’m just curious. 630 00:54:11.009 --> 00:54:12.599 ZACH WAMP: I don’t know anything about what you’re talking about. 631 00:54:12.599 --> 00:54:13.609 LEE FANG: All right. Thank you, Congressman. 632 00:54:13.609 --> 00:54:18.329 AMY GOODMAN: That was Zach Wamp, the former Tennessee Republican congressman, speaking 633 00:54:18.329 --> 00:54:22.750 with our guest today, Lee Fang. Talk about the significance—it was a little hard to 634 00:54:22.750 --> 00:54:27.150 hear—of what you were saying and he was saying about Palantir. And can you talk about 635 00:54:27.150 --> 00:54:29.660 spying on activists, on unions? 636 00:54:29.660 --> 00:54:36.130 LEE FANG: Right. Zach Wamp is a former Republican congressman from Tennessee, and like dozens 637 00:54:36.130 --> 00:54:43.130 of former congressmen and senators who have promised not to become lobbyists, Wamp left 638 00:54:43.410 --> 00:54:47.670 Congress and said he would start a business development firm, that he would not engage 639 00:54:47.670 --> 00:54:54.630 in lobbying, that he’s going back to Chattanooga, Tennessee. But as this video shows, I found 640 00:54:54.630 --> 00:55:01.630 Wamp on Capitol Hill talking to current members of Congress about Palantir. And as I talked 641 00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:08.309 to Wamp after his discussion with lawmakers, he said that he’s overseeing Palantir’s 642 00:55:08.309 --> 00:55:09.499 operation on Capitol Hill. 643 00:55:09.499 --> 00:55:15.859 Now, Palantir is a very controversial company who’s backed by the CIA, a lot of venture 644 00:55:15.859 --> 00:55:22.859 capitalists here in the Silicon Valley area. And it works for intelligence agencies to 645 00:55:23.079 --> 00:55:28.749 synthesize large amounts of data. And there was a large—there was a scandal in 2011 646 00:55:28.749 --> 00:55:35.749 that I helped break when I was at ThinkProgress. Palantir and two other defense contractors 647 00:55:35.910 --> 00:55:41.940 created a proposal for the United States Chamber of Commerce to develop a domestic spying program, 648 00:55:41.940 --> 00:55:48.559 using the same government-backed technology to spy on unions, on different labor activists 649 00:55:48.559 --> 00:55:54.130 and progressive media outlets. It’s not clear exactly how far that proposal went, 650 00:55:54.130 --> 00:55:58.980 but they did start gathering intelligence on all types of different left-of-center organizations 651 00:55:58.980 --> 00:55:59.430 and individuals. 652 00:55:59.430 --> 00:56:03.930 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: I want to ask you a little bit more about this morphing of the lobbyists 653 00:56:03.930 --> 00:56:10.730 into other forms of influence peddling. For instance, the American League of Lobbyists 654 00:56:10.730 --> 00:56:17.730 actually changed its name; they rebranded themselves as the Government Relations Professionals. 655 00:56:18.859 --> 00:56:24.589 This reminds me a little bit of United Fruit Company changing its name to Chiquita. This 656 00:56:24.589 --> 00:56:30.940 rebranding of these lobbyists, what other examples do you have of how they continue 657 00:56:30.940 --> 00:56:32.150 to do influence peddling under another name? 658 00:56:32.150 --> 00:56:36.170 LEE FANG: That’s right. You know, I think if you look at the polls, and if you actually 659 00:56:36.170 --> 00:56:42.670 listen to some of these seminars from the large lobbying organizations and firms, they 660 00:56:42.670 --> 00:56:49.670 understand that the American public is incredibly upset with the level of big money in politics, 661 00:56:50.670 --> 00:56:57.019 of the influence of lobbying in politics. And they’ve adapted by this, not by reforming, 662 00:56:57.019 --> 00:57:04.019 not by changing their behavior or using better reporting standards; they’re simply massaging 663 00:57:04.680 --> 00:57:09.180 their image, and they’re de-registering. So, this example of changing the name from 664 00:57:09.180 --> 00:57:14.190 League of Lobbyists to Association of Government Affairs Officials—Professionals, excuse 665 00:57:14.190 --> 00:57:19.930 me—is emblematic of that. Many big firms, instead of calling their lobbying staff "lobbyists," 666 00:57:19.930 --> 00:57:26.920 they’re calling them public affairs directors, government affairs associates, other euphemisms, 667 00:57:26.920 --> 00:57:32.579 but it’s largely a smokescreen for the exact same type of behavior that’s gone on for 668 00:57:32.579 --> 00:57:33.349 a very long time. 669 00:57:33.349 --> 00:57:36.589 AMY GOODMAN: Lee, we only have 30 seconds. You have so many amazing examples in your 670 00:57:36.589 --> 00:57:41.509 piece, "The Shadow Lobbying Complex." Bangladesh and TPP, if you can talk about them very quickly? 671 00:57:41.509 --> 00:57:48.509 LEE FANG: These two very big, controversial issues are another area where corporations 672 00:57:49.380 --> 00:57:54.059 are spending tens of millions of dollars that are not being reported on lobbying disclosure 673 00:57:54.059 --> 00:58:00.109 forms. No one really knows where the money is coming from, but large firms are hoping 674 00:58:00.109 --> 00:58:07.109 to impact both the situation in Bangladesh and the Trans-Pacific Partnership deal, again, 675 00:58:07.390 --> 00:58:12.660 using these public affairs or government affairs officials to peddle influence without disclosure. 676 00:58:12.660 --> 00:58:16.430 AMY GOODMAN: Well, Lee Fang, we want to thank you for being with us. The new cover story 677 00:58:16.430 --> 00:58:20.990 at The Nation is called "The Shadow Lobbying Complex: On Paper, Influence Peddling Has 678 00:58:20.990 --> 00:58:25.150 Declined. In Reality, It Has Gone Underground." We’ll link to it at democracynow.org. 679 00:58:25.150 --> 00:58:31.019 And that does it for our broadcast and our 18th anniversary week. Again, send us your 680 00:58:31.019 --> 00:58:38.019 thoughts. Go to our website at democracynow.org . We look for photos. We look for videos.