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From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now!

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Only later, much later,

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did we learn that this information
came from Shaykh al-Libi,

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who was waterboarded,

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probably in Cairo,

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with no U.S. personnel present.

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We also learned that within days of his

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having given this information
under torture, he recanted.

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As calls
for Bush administration officials

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to be prosecuted grow,

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we’ll look at how torture was used

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in an attempt to tie al-Qaeda
to Saddam Hussein

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and justify the invasion of Iraq.

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We’ll speak
with retired Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson.

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He served as chief of staff
to Secretary of State Colin Powell.

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But first, do no harm?

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We’ll look
at the central role health professionals

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played in the CIA torture program.

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Did doctors violate the Nuremberg Code
banning human experimentation?

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Then, 25 years ago this week,

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the U.S. invaded Panama.

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It’s clear
that this invasion was illegal.

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It’s not debatable.

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The goals of the United States have been
to safeguard the lives of Americans,

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to defend democracy in Panama.

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How in the world do you restore
that which has never existed?

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Panama has never been a democracy

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since we created Panama
for our own purposes in 1903.

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And all we did was go down to restore
American control and dominance

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in Panama.

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An excerpt of the Academy Award-winning
film, The Panama Deception.

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We’ll speak with former
Panamanian diplomat Humberto Brown,

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Latin American historian Greg Grandin —

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his latest piece,

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"How the Iraq War Began in Panama" —

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and Colonel Wilkerson.

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General Powell was chair
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

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during the Panama invasion.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

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The War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman.

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New York City Mayor Bill de Blasio
has called for a pause in demonstrations

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over police killings
of unarmed African Americans

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until after two slain New York
City Police Department officers

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are laid to rest.

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Officers Wanjian Liu and Rafael Ramos

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were ambushed in their patrol car
in Brooklyn Saturday

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by Ismaaiyl Brinsley,

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a man with a history
of mental health issues

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and multiple arrests.

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Speaking before a nonprofit police
group, de Blasio

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said political events should be delayed
until after the funerals.

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Mayor Bill de Blasio: "I think
it’s a time for everyone

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to put aside political debates,

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put aside protests,

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put aside all of the things
that we will talk about in due time.

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In the coming days,
two families prepare for funerals.

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Two families try to think about
how to piece their lives back together.

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That should be our only concern:
How do we support them?

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So I would ask any organizations
that were planning events or gatherings

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that are about politics and protest,

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that could be for another day."

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The sister of the shooter

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who killed two New York City Police
Department officers says her brother

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suffered from mental illness
and should have received help.

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Ismaaiyl Brinsley fatally shot himself
after killing the officers.

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Earlier in the day,
he had shot and injured his girlfriend.

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His sister Jalaa’i Brinsley,
spoke to reporters.

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Jalaa’i Brinsley: "He was
an emotionally troubled young man,

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and he was suicidal.

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Clearly something’s wrong.

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He should have been offered help
in the system, right?

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But he wasn’t."

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Mayor de Blasio has visited the families
of the slain NYPD officers

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and vowed to attend the funeral
for Officer Rafael Ramos this weekend.

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The funeral for the second officer
has not been scheduled.

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The move comes as de Blasio
faces animosity

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from the city’s largest police union

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over his response to police brutality
and racial profiling,

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including his remarks about fearing
for his biracial son, Dante,

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and training him to take special care
in police encounters.

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Speaking at a news conference
alongside Mayor de Blasio Monday,

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New York City Police
Commissioner William Bratton

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said the animosity is part of politics.

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William Bratton: "Some of you have been
around this town for a while.

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Can you point out to me one mayor

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that has not been battling
with the police unions

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in the last 50 years?

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Name one.

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Name one.

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So the experience of this mayor

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in terms of some cops
not liking him is nothing new.

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It’s part of life,
it’s part of politics.

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And it is what it is.
This is New York City.

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We voice our concerns,
and we voice our opinions."

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The NYPD officers’ murders

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have been soundly condemned
by the families

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of unarmed African Americans
recently killed by police

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and the protest groups
that have sprung up in response.

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On Monday, Emerald Garner,
the daughter of Eric Garner,

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visited a makeshift memorial
for the slain officers in Brooklyn.

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Her father was killed
when New York City police

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wrestled him the ground
in a banned chokehold

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and pinned him down while he repeatedly
said he could not breathe.

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Emerald Garner called for protests
over the death of her father and others

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to remain peaceful.

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Emerald Garner: "My message
here is to keep everything peaceful.

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We stand together as one.

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This country is — we are all one.

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We are not divided.

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We’re not separating.

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We’re all standing together.

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There will be continued
peaceful protesting.

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I believe that everyone
will keep it peaceful

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and protest in the right manner."

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In Wisconsin, a prosecutor

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has decided not to bring charges
against a white police officer

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who fatally shot a mentally ill
African-American man.

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In April,
Milwaukee Officer Christopher Manney

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responded to a call
about a man sleeping in a park.

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Before Manney arrived,

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two other officers had already spoken
to the man, Dontre Hamilton,

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and found he was not causing a problem.

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But Manney said Hamilton resisted
when he tried to frisk him,

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sparking a confrontation,

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during which Hamilton
grabbed Manney’s baton and hit him.

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Manney opened fire,
shooting Hamilton 14 times.

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The shooting led to Manney’s firing for
violating the police department’s policy

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for handling people
with mental illnesses.

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But on Monday, Milwaukee County
District Attorney John Chisholm

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said Manney acted in self-defense.

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John Chisholm: "After
carefully analyzing the investigation,

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the forensic evidence
in the case, the law

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and the conclusions
of both the local use of force expert

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and Mr. Kapelsohn’s report,
I have come to the conclusion

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that criminal charges
are not appropriate in this case,

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and I am releasing
all of the information

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related to this investigation

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so that you, the public,

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can see all the facts
related to this decision."

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The shooting of Dontre Hamilton

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has sparked mass protests in Milwaukee,

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including a highway shutdown Friday
which resulted in 74 arrests.

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The Justice Department has announced
a federal review of the case.

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The United States has rejected
as "absurd" North Korea’s call

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for a joint investigation
into the hack of Sony Pictures.

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The Obama administration says the hack
was carried out by North Korea

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in retaliation
for Sony’s comedy "The Interview"

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about the assassination

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of North Korean leader Kim Jong-un,
a claim North Korea denies.

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U.S. Ambassador
to the United Nations Samantha Power

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spoke at the U.N. Security Council,

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which considered
North Korea’s human rights record

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for the first time ever on Monday.

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Samantha Power: "North Korea
also threatened the United States

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with serious consequences

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if our country did not conduct
a joint investigation with the DPRK

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into an attack that they carried out.

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This is absurd.

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Yet it is exactly the kind of behavior

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we have come to expect from a regime
that threatened to take,

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quote, 'merciless countermeasures,'
end-quote,

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against the U.S.
over a Hollywood comedy,

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and has no qualms about holding tens of
thousands of people in harrowing gulags.

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We cannot give in to threats
or intimidation of any kind."

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North Korea lost its connection
to the Internet completely Monday.

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The Internet failure began just hours

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after President Obama
threatened a "proportional response"

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to the hack of Sony Pictures,

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although it is unclear
if there is any connection.

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The White House and State Department

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declined to say
whether the United States

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was involved in the Internet outage.

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Nicaragua has announced the start

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of construction
for a $50 billion canal project

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which has been fiercely opposed
by indigenous groups

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and other local residents.

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The canal, which is being built
by a Hong Kong-based firm,

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would cut through Nicaragua,

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connecting the Caribbean Sea
and Pacific Ocean

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and passing through
the region’s largest freshwater source.

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Protesters say it will displace tens
of thousands of people

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and destroy huge swaths
of the rainforest.

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In the United States, a federal judge

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has ruled Oklahoma can resume executions
following a botched killing in April.

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Attorneys for death row prisoners
had objected to Oklahoma’s procedures,

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including its use
of the sedative midazolam,

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following the execution
of Clayton Lockett,

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who writhed in apparent agony
during a 43-minute ordeal.

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But a judge ruled Oklahoma
can move ahead with four executions

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planned for early next year.

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The state of Arizona, meanwhile,

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has said it will attempt
to stop using midazolam

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as part of its execution cocktail,

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instead seeking out stocks
of pentobarbital,

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which has been in short supply

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after its European manufacturer
objected to its use in executions.

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In July, Arizona prisoner Joseph Wood
received 15 doses of midazolam

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during a nearly two-hour-long
botched execution

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which saw him repeatedly
gasping for air.

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A federal judge has struck down
a new regulation

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that would have increased pay
for many home healthcare workers.

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Industry groups had sued over rules
issued by the Obama administration

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last year to guarantee minimum wage

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and overtime pay
for home health workers.

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The ruling follows a victory
for low-wage workers

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in the fast-food sector.

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On Friday,
the National Labor Relations Board

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announced 78 charges against McDonald’s
and several of its franchise operators

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for illegally punishing and threatening
workers who joined the national movement

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for a $15-an-hour minimum wage.

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The move is particularly significant

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because it considers
McDonald’s a joint employer,

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which would make
it responsible for labor violations

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at its franchise restaurants.

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New York Republican Rep. Michael Grimm

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has reportedly agreed to plead guilty
to tax fraud

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in a move that could see
him face at least two years in prison

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and place him under pressure to resign.

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In April, Grimm was accused

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of concealing
more than $1 million in revenue

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and failing to report hundreds
of thousands of dollars in employee pay

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at his fast-food health restaurant
in New York City.

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News outlets are reporting Grimm

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will plead guilty today
to a single count

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of aiding in the preparation
of a false tax return.

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The charges came as part
of a wider probe

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into Grimm’s campaign finances,
which made national headlines

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when Grimm threatened to throw
a NY1 reporter off a balcony

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for asking him about the investigation.

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The wife of one of the members
of the Cuban Five

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who was just released from prison
after 16 years is expecting a baby,

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due in about two weeks.

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Gerardo Hernández, the baby’s father,

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is one of the three former
Cuban intelligence agents

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released as part of a prisoner swap
amidst thawing ties with Cuba last week.

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While he was not allowed
conjugal visits,

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Hernández
was able to impregnate his wife

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by having his frozen sperm
transferred to her in Panama,

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a process authorized by U.S. officials,

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funded by the Cuban government
and facilitated by a staffer

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for Vermont Senator Patrick Leahy.

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The process reportedly helped set
a softer tone between Cuba

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and the United States
which culminated in the resumption

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of diplomatic ties and the release
of two U.S. prisoners,

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including USAID contractor Alan Gross.

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And Gerardo Hernández
and his wife, Adriana Pérez,

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are now expecting a baby girl.

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And those are some of the headlines
this is Democracy Now,

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Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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AARON MATÉ: Calls are increasing
for the prosecution

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00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:30.590
of Bush administration officials
tied to the CIA torture program.

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On Monday,
the American Civil Liberties

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00:12:32.470 --> 00:12:36.180
Union and Human Rights Watch
called on Attorney General Eric Holder

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to appoint a special prosecutor
to probe the crimes

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00:12:39.290 --> 00:12:42.220
detailed in the Senate
Intelligence Committee’s report.

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Also on Monday,
The New York Times editorial board

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called for a full
and independent criminal investigation.

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Meanwhile, the group

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Physicians for Human Rights is calling
for a federal commission to investigate,

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document and hold accountable

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00:12:55.760 --> 00:12:59.740
all health professionals
who took part in CIA torture.

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AMY GOODMAN: Last week, the Physicians
for Human Rights released a report

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titled "Doing Harm:

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Health Professionals’ Central Role
in the CIA Torture Program."

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The report finds medical personnel

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connected to the torture program
may have committed war crimes

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by conducting human experimentation
on prisoners

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in violation of the Nuremberg Code

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that grew out of the trial
of Nazi officials and doctors

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after World War II.

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Joining us now is Nathaniel Raymond.

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He’s a research ethics adviser
for Physicians for Human Rights.

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He co-wrote the new report.

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He’s also a researcher
at the Harvard School of Public Health.

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It’s nice to have you back, Nathaniel.

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So, start off by talking
about the human experimentation.

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What came out of the CIA documents?

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NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Well, I would say
that there were two incidents

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in the Senate Select Committee

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on Intelligence executive summary

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that have been largely overlooked
by the press.

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One is the Office of Medical Services

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00:13:54.380 --> 00:13:59.670
raising concerns
to the inspector general in 2005 at CIA

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that they were being asked

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to potentially
commit human experimentation

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through the required monitoring role

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00:14:07.030 --> 00:14:08.680
to study the efficacy

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00:14:08.680 --> 00:14:11.230
and the quote-unquote "safety"
of the tactics.

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Additionally, the report
shows two senior former CIA agents

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00:14:17.260 --> 00:14:21.680
were asked to do an independent review
of the CIA interrogation program

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and declined to assess the efficacy
because they said it would, quote,

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"violate federal policy"
on human subjects research.

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What we see clearly in this report

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00:14:31.640 --> 00:14:34.040
is that the Office
of Medical Services’ role

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00:14:34.040 --> 00:14:39.290
evolved from the time
of the Yoo-Bybee memo in 2002 and 2003

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into something very different
by the Bradbury memo in 2005.

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They were actively engaged
in collecting data,

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in assessing the potential impact,
the harm, of these tactics.

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That role can constitute research

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00:14:56.560 --> 00:15:00.020
and can constitute a violation
of international war crimes

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00:15:00.020 --> 00:15:03.310
prohibitions
on human subjects experimentation,

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because what they were doing

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was unrelated to the medical care
of detainees,

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and it had no clinical precedent,

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and it involved the analysis
of identifiable data

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from detainees who were being tortured.

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00:15:14.880 --> 00:15:17.250
AARON MATÉ: So what does this evolution
indicate to you?

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00:15:17.250 --> 00:15:19.110
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: It indicates this:

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that the U.S. government

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00:15:20.390 --> 00:15:23.510
swallowed the spider
to catch the fly of torture.

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And they swallowed the spider
of weaponizing health professionals

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to engage in a role

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that has been widely documented
and prohibited by the Nuremberg Code

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and also by U.S. domestic war crimes law

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as constituting potentially
a crime against humanity.

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Now, I want to be clear here:

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There’s no hierarchy

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of harm between torture and alleged
human subject experimentation.

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Both are illegal,

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and both can constitute war crimes.

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00:15:54.340 --> 00:15:59.260
But the fact here is
that we now see clear evidence

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00:15:59.260 --> 00:16:02.090
of the essential, integral role

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00:16:02.090 --> 00:16:04.810
that health professionals
played as the legal heat shield

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00:16:04.810 --> 00:16:06.170
for the Bush administration—

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00:16:06.170 --> 00:16:07.830
their get-out-of-jail-free card.

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00:16:07.830 --> 00:16:10.280
AMY GOODMAN: So, let’s talk
about the different professions.

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00:16:10.280 --> 00:16:11.570
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: We’ve talked to you a lot

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over the years about psychologists,

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00:16:13.380 --> 00:16:17.420
and we’ve done several big segments
in the last few weeks.

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We know about the psychologists
Bruce Jessen

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00:16:20.230 --> 00:16:22.200
and James Mitchell—
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Yes.

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00:16:22.200 --> 00:16:24.300
AMY GOODMAN: —and their role
in the torture.

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00:16:24.300 --> 00:16:27.120
But talk beyond these two men,

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00:16:27.120 --> 00:16:29.690
as the attempt
is made for them to be isolated,

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00:16:29.690 --> 00:16:32.350
the role of the American
Psychological Association,

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00:16:32.350 --> 00:16:35.540
the largest association
of psychologists in the world,

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00:16:35.540 --> 00:16:36.910
but then beyond that—

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00:16:36.910 --> 00:16:39.660
psychiatrists, doctors, nurses.

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00:16:39.660 --> 00:16:42.360
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: I think
there has often been this narrative

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00:16:42.360 --> 00:16:45.510
that Mitchell and Jessen were sort
of the lone gunmen of torture,

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00:16:45.510 --> 00:16:46.610
that they, you know,

344
00:16:46.610 --> 00:16:48.440
were doing this out of their garage.

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00:16:48.440 --> 00:16:55.330
They were operating inside
a superstructure of medicalized torture.

346
00:16:55.330 --> 00:16:58.110
And what that means
is it wasn’t just them alone.

347
00:16:58.110 --> 00:17:01.300
It was the Office
of Medical Services at CIA,

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00:17:01.300 --> 00:17:03.250
part of the Office of Technical Services

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00:17:03.250 --> 00:17:05.360
that allegedly employed Mitchell

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00:17:05.360 --> 00:17:07.300
and Jessen, and that includes—

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00:17:07.300 --> 00:17:11.310
just looking at the executive summary
of the Senate report,

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00:17:11.310 --> 00:17:13.630
it includes physicians’ assistants,

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00:17:13.630 --> 00:17:15.330
it includes doctors,

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00:17:15.330 --> 00:17:19.230
and it may include other professionals
within OMS.

355
00:17:19.230 --> 00:17:21.410
And what they were doing
was everything from, quote,

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00:17:21.410 --> 00:17:24.690
"patient care"
to actual monitoring,

357
00:17:24.690 --> 00:17:27.060
calibration and design
of the tactics

358
00:17:27.060 --> 00:17:29.260
with Mitchell and Jessen.
AMY GOODMAN: But explain.

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00:17:29.260 --> 00:17:31.250
It has traditionally been said—
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Yes.

360
00:17:31.250 --> 00:17:34.010
AMY GOODMAN: —that the American
Psychological Association,

361
00:17:34.010 --> 00:17:38.000
despite a lot of resistance
from a lot of psychologists

362
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:41.430
within who were trying
to change the rules—

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00:17:41.430 --> 00:17:44.300
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Mm-hmm, absolutely.
AMY GOODMAN: —was resisting for years

364
00:17:44.300 --> 00:17:47.870
any kind moratorium or ban
on psychologists’ involvement

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00:17:47.870 --> 00:17:50.530
in these so-called
enhanced interrogations,

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00:17:50.530 --> 00:17:52.720
but that the AMA and the little APA—
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Yes.

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00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.170
AMY GOODMAN: —the American Psychiatric
Association, did pass bans, moratoriums.

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00:17:56.170 --> 00:17:59.850
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: In 2006,
the AMA and the little APA,

369
00:17:59.850 --> 00:18:03.970
American Psychiatric,
passed clear bans on participation.

370
00:18:03.970 --> 00:18:08.200
And those bans on participation are now
being echoed by The New York Times.

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00:18:08.200 --> 00:18:12.500
The American Psychological Association
is, of the big three,

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00:18:12.500 --> 00:18:16.780
the only association that still
permits involvement in interrogations.

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00:18:17.310 --> 00:18:24.000
Where we have to go in the next step
is to a ban encoded in U.S. law.

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00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:27.710
It’s time for it no longer
to be about the associations,

375
00:18:27.710 --> 00:18:29.390
but to be about U.S. code.

376
00:18:29.390 --> 00:18:32.870
Health professionals have no role
in interrogations.

377
00:18:32.870 --> 00:18:35.880
There’s the line
from the famous Diane Beaver email

378
00:18:35.880 --> 00:18:38.610
out of Guantánamo: "If a detainee dies,
you’re doing it wrong."

379
00:18:38.610 --> 00:18:40.890
If you have a health professional
in an interrogation,

380
00:18:40.890 --> 00:18:42.230
I would invert that and say,

381
00:18:42.230 --> 00:18:43.930
"Then you’re doing it wrong."

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00:18:43.930 --> 00:18:45.320
Right now is the time

383
00:18:45.320 --> 00:18:48.450
for leadership for the associations
to step up and go,

384
00:18:48.450 --> 00:18:50.680
in the case
of the AMA and American Psychiatric,

385
00:18:50.680 --> 00:18:54.720
one step further and say this needs
to be encoded in U.S. federal statute.

386
00:18:55.560 --> 00:18:59.040
AARON MATÉ: You spoke to a contractor
who was involved

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00:18:59.040 --> 00:19:00.880
in these CIA interrogations.
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Yes.

388
00:19:00.880 --> 00:19:02.600
AARON MATÉ: Who was he,
and what did he tell you?

389
00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:04.050
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: In 2006,

390
00:19:04.050 --> 00:19:07.030
I received a phone call
from Scott Gerwehr,

391
00:19:07.030 --> 00:19:11.340
who identified himself
as a CIA contractor,

392
00:19:11.340 --> 00:19:15.800
who said that he was at Guantánamo
in the summer of 2006,

393
00:19:15.800 --> 00:19:20.920
and he was installing cameras
as part of detecting deception

394
00:19:20.920 --> 00:19:24.560
during interrogations
at a CIA facility at Guantánamo Bay.

395
00:19:25.450 --> 00:19:30.860
Mr. Gerwehr then proceeded to go
into detail about the Office

396
00:19:30.860 --> 00:19:32.890
of Medical Services evaluation

397
00:19:32.890 --> 00:19:36.310
he said was in a CIA inspector
general report.

398
00:19:36.310 --> 00:19:42.060
I didn’t speak to Mr. Gerwehr
other than one or two times after that,

399
00:19:42.060 --> 00:19:46.620
and I found out in 2009 he
had passed away in a traffic accident.

400
00:19:47.230 --> 00:19:50.360
Once I learned that he had died,

401
00:19:50.360 --> 00:19:54.620
I went and contacted at Physicians
for Human Rights,

402
00:19:55.230 --> 00:19:57.640
through that organization,
the Department of Justice,

403
00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.610
and I met with Assistant U.S.
Attorney John Durham,

404
00:20:01.610 --> 00:20:05.840
and I told him
that he needed to look at Mr. Gerwehr

405
00:20:05.840 --> 00:20:08.470
and any potential evidence
he had left behind.

406
00:20:08.990 --> 00:20:13.980
Subsequently, the Department of Justice
obtained emails, after that meeting,

407
00:20:13.980 --> 00:20:17.250
from Mr. Gerwehr’s files.

408
00:20:17.250 --> 00:20:18.620
And in those emails,

409
00:20:18.620 --> 00:20:21.920
which are referenced in James Risen’s
recent book, Pay Any Price,

410
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:27.910
we see a stunning tick-tock

411
00:20:27.910 --> 00:20:31.050
of the American Psychological
Association’s direct communication

412
00:20:31.050 --> 00:20:35.330
with the CIA and White House officials
related to its own ethics policy.

413
00:20:35.830 --> 00:20:40.780
Right now, David Hoffman
of the law firm Sidley & Howe in Chicago

414
00:20:40.780 --> 00:20:44.280
is conducting an independent probe
of the APA,

415
00:20:44.280 --> 00:20:46.990
and I’m cooperating with him.

416
00:20:46.990 --> 00:20:50.990
And I also analyzed Mr. Gerwehr’s emails
at the request

417
00:20:50.990 --> 00:20:55.360
of the public corruption unit
of the FBI in 2012,

418
00:20:55.360 --> 00:21:00.730
and I analyzed in the context
of a RICO violation, potentially,

419
00:21:00.730 --> 00:21:03.080
by the American
Psychological Association

420
00:21:03.080 --> 00:21:07.610
related to this apparent collusion
with the CIA and the White House.

421
00:21:08.330 --> 00:21:10.110
AARON MATÉ: Are there grounds
for charges, do you think?

422
00:21:11.050 --> 00:21:13.780
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: In the memo
I wrote for the FBI,

423
00:21:13.780 --> 00:21:17.880
I presented information
that I felt had probative value,

424
00:21:17.880 --> 00:21:22.180
meaning that there was grounds for
an official investigation by the Bureau.

425
00:21:22.760 --> 00:21:27.600
The issue that we encountered then
is that the information I had,

426
00:21:27.600 --> 00:21:29.740
which was
not only Scott Gerwehr’s emails

427
00:21:29.740 --> 00:21:32.500
but other additional evidence
in my possession,

428
00:21:32.500 --> 00:21:40.520
was outside the statute of limitations
of U.S. RICO code, 18 U.S.C.

429
00:21:41.070 --> 00:21:45.240
The hope here is
that with David Hoffman’s investigation,

430
00:21:45.240 --> 00:21:47.730
new evidence can be unearthed.

431
00:21:47.730 --> 00:21:52.120
And the hope is that if it falls
within the statute of limitations,

432
00:21:52.120 --> 00:21:54.120
he’ll refer it
to the Department of Justice.

433
00:21:54.120 --> 00:21:56.010
AMY GOODMAN: And you think
it suggests that?

434
00:21:56.010 --> 00:21:58.080
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: I think
it definitely suggests that.

435
00:21:58.080 --> 00:21:59.680
I think—
AMY GOODMAN: That what?

436
00:21:59.680 --> 00:22:01.740
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: I think it suggests—
let me make a clear,

437
00:22:01.740 --> 00:22:02.940
declarative statement:

438
00:22:02.940 --> 00:22:08.000
I think the information
I reviewed for the FBI in 2012

439
00:22:08.000 --> 00:22:12.230
suggests that the APA potentially
was engaged in racketeering

440
00:22:12.230 --> 00:22:17.470
related to its relationship
with CIA and White House officials

441
00:22:17.470 --> 00:22:21.780
in the construction of the 2005 PENS,

442
00:22:21.780 --> 00:22:24.030
President’s Task Force
on Psychological Ethics

443
00:22:24.030 --> 00:22:25.030
and National Security.
AMY GOODMAN: And explain that.

444
00:22:25.030 --> 00:22:26.640
"PENS" stands for?

445
00:22:26.640 --> 00:22:28.890
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: PENS is
the President’s Task Force

446
00:22:28.890 --> 00:22:31.020
on Psychological Ethics
and National Security,

447
00:22:31.020 --> 00:22:34.380
which basically encoded in APA policy

448
00:22:34.380 --> 00:22:37.960
the observation, the monitoring,

449
00:22:37.960 --> 00:22:39.580
the direct involvement role

450
00:22:39.580 --> 00:22:42.930
for psychologists
in national security interrogations,

451
00:22:42.930 --> 00:22:45.180
that we now know at that time
involved torture.

452
00:22:45.740 --> 00:22:51.460
What we see from Jim Risen’s reporting
based on the emails I also reviewed

453
00:22:51.460 --> 00:22:57.030
is clear concealed contacts
between officials who were directly

454
00:22:57.030 --> 00:23:00.410
in the policy chain of command
and the operational chain of command

455
00:23:00.410 --> 00:23:03.520
at CIA related to this program—

456
00:23:03.520 --> 00:23:05.420
were helping, in one case,

457
00:23:05.420 --> 00:23:08.210
to literally write the PENS report.

458
00:23:08.210 --> 00:23:10.650
It wasn’t just
that they were passing Post-it notes.

459
00:23:10.650 --> 00:23:14.860
They were literally writing the text
of the document.

460
00:23:14.860 --> 00:23:17.890
AMY GOODMAN: We had Jean Maria Arrigo
on Democracy Now! years ago.

461
00:23:17.890 --> 00:23:18.690
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Who’s a real hero.
AMY GOODMAN: Right.

462
00:23:18.690 --> 00:23:21.610
She was in the PENS panel,
to her own shock.

463
00:23:21.610 --> 00:23:25.920
She’s an oral historian
of military psychologists,

464
00:23:25.920 --> 00:23:27.930
and she’s sitting there in this meeting,

465
00:23:27.930 --> 00:23:29.680
and she starts to take notes.

466
00:23:29.680 --> 00:23:31.360
Psychologists are known
for taking notes.

467
00:23:31.360 --> 00:23:33.530
And she’s told to put her notes away.

468
00:23:33.530 --> 00:23:36.050
And before she knew it,
she’s handed the final report

469
00:23:36.050 --> 00:23:37.400
that she is supposed to sign.

470
00:23:38.190 --> 00:23:40.800
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: And if you’re trying
to cover something up,

471
00:23:40.800 --> 00:23:43.420
don’t give Jean Maria Arrigo a notebook.

472
00:23:43.420 --> 00:23:48.930
The fact of the matter
is that there’s one conclusion

473
00:23:48.930 --> 00:23:50.200
that you can draw,

474
00:23:50.200 --> 00:23:53.190
is that unlike the American
Medical Association

475
00:23:53.190 --> 00:23:54.780
and the American
Psychiatric Association,

476
00:23:54.780 --> 00:23:57.630
which had public processes
on this issue,

477
00:23:57.630 --> 00:24:03.470
processes that I was involved with that
were public meetings in Chicago in 2006,

478
00:24:03.470 --> 00:24:06.270
not only did the APA
do it behind closed doors,

479
00:24:06.270 --> 00:24:10.850
they did it with direct contact
and follow-up, it appears,

480
00:24:10.850 --> 00:24:12.560
based on Jim Risen’s reporting,

481
00:24:12.560 --> 00:24:14.140
with the very officials

482
00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:17.690
who were in the operational
and the policy chain of command.

483
00:24:17.690 --> 00:24:19.450
And the question is: Why?

484
00:24:20.100 --> 00:24:21.860
Why did it have to go that way?

485
00:24:21.860 --> 00:24:25.120
And I hope that Mr. Hoffman,
in his investigation,

486
00:24:25.120 --> 00:24:26.830
can help answer that question.

487
00:24:26.830 --> 00:24:29.530
AARON MATÉ: On top of the policy part,
helping draft guidelines

488
00:24:29.530 --> 00:24:32.120
that would enable torture, can you talk
about how a health professional

489
00:24:32.120 --> 00:24:36.260
would actually physically
abet the interrogation of a prisoner?

490
00:24:36.260 --> 00:24:37.700
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: It depends
on the profession.

491
00:24:37.700 --> 00:24:39.080
In the case of physicians,

492
00:24:39.080 --> 00:24:44.040
what we see in the now well-known,
heinous example of,

493
00:24:44.040 --> 00:24:47.880
quote-unquote, "rectal feeding" is
that the physicians themselves,

494
00:24:47.880 --> 00:24:50.570
in addition
to the well-known psychologists Mitchell

495
00:24:50.570 --> 00:24:52.770
and Jessen
who were mentioned before by Amy,

496
00:24:52.770 --> 00:24:55.640
appear to have been involved

497
00:24:55.640 --> 00:24:58.990
in the designing of tactics
that were intentionally inflicting harm.

498
00:24:59.510 --> 00:25:01.200
In the case of psychologists,

499
00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:03.130
there appears to be
additional psychologists,

500
00:25:03.130 --> 00:25:04.570
beyond Mitchell and Jessen,

501
00:25:04.570 --> 00:25:06.780
who would be called
operational psychologists.

502
00:25:06.780 --> 00:25:10.010
There were support psychologists
who were conducting evaluations

503
00:25:10.010 --> 00:25:11.510
and serving in OMS.

504
00:25:11.510 --> 00:25:14.090
And there’s the mention
of a physician’s assistant

505
00:25:14.090 --> 00:25:16.490
who appears to have been involved

506
00:25:16.490 --> 00:25:19.140
in relaying information
back to headquarters

507
00:25:19.140 --> 00:25:24.020
at Langley about whether a detainee
was ready, after an injury,

508
00:25:24.020 --> 00:25:25.320
to be tortured again.

509
00:25:25.320 --> 00:25:28.890
So we see this clear role
across the health professions

510
00:25:28.890 --> 00:25:33.670
of taking their responsibility
to do no harm into a mission

511
00:25:33.670 --> 00:25:36.890
to do harm to detainees
with their health professional skills.

512
00:25:36.890 --> 00:25:39.180
AMY GOODMAN: Nathaniel Raymond,
you say the human rights community

513
00:25:39.180 --> 00:25:42.090
has done a disservice
to itself on this issue. How?

514
00:25:42.090 --> 00:25:46.580
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: I think that
in many ways we have buried the lede,

515
00:25:46.580 --> 00:25:49.520
in the sense that we’ve seen often—

516
00:25:49.520 --> 00:25:54.220
the health professional issue, as it
relates to the interrogation scandal,

517
00:25:54.220 --> 00:25:57.280
is seen as this boutique sort
of side narrative.

518
00:25:57.280 --> 00:25:59.660
And I think—and kudos to you, Amy,

519
00:25:59.660 --> 00:26:03.030
you’ve kept this issue front
and center for many years.

520
00:26:03.030 --> 00:26:08.000
Now it’s time
to really see it as the central story.

521
00:26:08.000 --> 00:26:10.090
If you didn’t have
the health professionals,

522
00:26:10.090 --> 00:26:13.240
you wouldn’t have had the Office
of Legal Counsel memos.

523
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:15.810
It was the spark plug in that engine.
AMY GOODMAN: How?

524
00:26:15.810 --> 00:26:17.950
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Because the OLC memos

525
00:26:17.950 --> 00:26:20.360
were based
on a good-faith interpretation

526
00:26:20.360 --> 00:26:22.220
of U.S. anti-torture law,

527
00:26:22.220 --> 00:26:25.330
saying that if we, the United States,

528
00:26:25.330 --> 00:26:29.740
did not cause a certain level
of severe, long-lasting pain,

529
00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:31.500
physical and mental pain and suffering,

530
00:26:31.500 --> 00:26:33.120
then we had not violated torture.

531
00:26:33.120 --> 00:26:36.660
Well, how are you going
to assess that in a good-faith defense?

532
00:26:36.660 --> 00:26:38.170
You need to have health professionals

533
00:26:38.170 --> 00:26:43.110
involved to say that this limbo stick
of harm was not crossed.

534
00:26:43.110 --> 00:26:46.280
Well, the fact is,
that’s inherently an experimental role.

535
00:26:46.280 --> 00:26:47.800
There’s no clinical precedent.

536
00:26:47.800 --> 00:26:50.970
Doctors are not trained
in assessing the prospective harm

537
00:26:50.970 --> 00:26:52.320
of a torture technique.

538
00:26:52.320 --> 00:26:54.020
So, the fact of the matter is,

539
00:26:54.020 --> 00:26:58.760
if you did not have the psychologists,
the doctors in the room,

540
00:26:58.760 --> 00:26:59.900
OLC,

541
00:26:59.900 --> 00:27:01.830
as we see in the Bradbury memorandum,

542
00:27:01.830 --> 00:27:06.310
wouldn’t have had the data to say
we hadn’t crossed the threshold of harm.

543
00:27:06.310 --> 00:27:11.190
In other words, the health professionals
were the get-out-of-jail-free card,

544
00:27:11.190 --> 00:27:13.940
the legal indemnification
for the White House.

545
00:27:14.780 --> 00:27:16.900
AARON MATÉ: Your report
calls for a federal commission.

546
00:27:16.900 --> 00:27:17.050
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Yes.

547
00:27:17.050 --> 00:27:18.720
AARON MATÉ: What should
such a commission look at,

548
00:27:18.720 --> 00:27:19.820
and why is that important?

549
00:27:19.820 --> 00:27:21.860
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Well, I think,
to date,

550
00:27:21.860 --> 00:27:27.110
we have had two critical and courageous
congressional investigations,

551
00:27:27.110 --> 00:27:30.120
in terms of Senate Armed Services
Committee and then, later,

552
00:27:30.120 --> 00:27:33.650
the Senate Select Committee
on Intelligence executive summary.

553
00:27:33.650 --> 00:27:36.750
But right now we’ve been
working in compartments.

554
00:27:36.750 --> 00:27:39.410
And the issue
of health professional involvement

555
00:27:39.410 --> 00:27:42.800
is an interdisciplinary,
cross-committee problem.

556
00:27:42.800 --> 00:27:46.680
It goes from judiciary
to health and human services

557
00:27:46.680 --> 00:27:49.230
on to intelligence and armed services.

558
00:27:49.230 --> 00:27:51.110
There needs to be a holistic approach.

559
00:27:51.110 --> 00:27:54.220
This is a five-alarm fire
in American medical ethics,

560
00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:55.960
up there with Tuskegee.

561
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:59.020
This is not just about
what was done before.

562
00:27:59.020 --> 00:28:02.590
It appears that there were changes
to both the interpretation

563
00:28:02.590 --> 00:28:06.640
of the Code of Federal Regulations
related to human subjects research—

564
00:28:06.640 --> 00:28:08.090
the Wolfowitz memorandum—

565
00:28:08.090 --> 00:28:10.080
and changes to U.S. interpretation

566
00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:13.920
of the Geneva Conventions
related to biomedical experimentation

567
00:28:13.920 --> 00:28:15.430
during the Bush administration.

568
00:28:15.430 --> 00:28:16.900
We need to go back,

569
00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:20.670
find out what was done
and literally fix our code.

570
00:28:20.670 --> 00:28:22.560
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn
to the psychologist,

571
00:28:22.560 --> 00:28:25.920
James Mitchell, who helped design
the CIA interrogation program,

572
00:28:25.920 --> 00:28:28.570
recently interviewed
on Fox News’s Megyn Kelly

573
00:28:28.570 --> 00:28:32.210
about his involvement
in the interrogation of Abu Zubaydah,

574
00:28:32.210 --> 00:28:33.810
who was reportedly subjected

575
00:28:33.810 --> 00:28:37.150
to waterboarding
at a secret CIA black site in Thailand.

576
00:28:37.670 --> 00:28:39.350
MEGYN KELLY: And there was
medical personnel in the room.

577
00:28:40.400 --> 00:28:42.450
JAMES MITCHELL: There was
always medical personnel.

578
00:28:42.450 --> 00:28:44.460
There were medical personnel there.

579
00:28:44.460 --> 00:28:48.410
There were psychologists that were
independent of the interrogation there.

580
00:28:48.410 --> 00:28:55.310
There were language experts,
although he spoke English pretty well.

581
00:28:55.310 --> 00:28:56.790
There were language experts.

582
00:28:56.790 --> 00:28:59.460
There were subject matter experts.

583
00:28:59.460 --> 00:29:02.730
And there were the—there were the people
who had the command and control.

584
00:29:03.890 --> 00:29:05.500
AMY GOODMAN: All the people in the room,

585
00:29:05.500 --> 00:29:06.650
Nathaniel Raymond.
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Yes.

586
00:29:07.290 --> 00:29:12.360
I think that, you know, James Mitchell
said it better than I can say it.

587
00:29:12.360 --> 00:29:18.660
This was a multiple-department chain
of command-authorized operation.

588
00:29:18.660 --> 00:29:20.780
And we have a responsibility,

589
00:29:20.780 --> 00:29:24.500
underneath the precedents of Nuremberg,
under the precedents

590
00:29:24.500 --> 00:29:28.580
of the Tokyo trials, to hold the chain
of command accountable.

591
00:29:28.580 --> 00:29:33.870
To date, we have basically violated
the bedrock principle

592
00:29:33.870 --> 00:29:35.400
of command accountability,

593
00:29:35.400 --> 00:29:38.660
which is the basis of international
and domestic war crimes law.

594
00:29:38.660 --> 00:29:41.330
It’s been
about two contract psychologists.

595
00:29:41.870 --> 00:29:43.180
Who brought them in?

596
00:29:43.180 --> 00:29:44.560
Who was their commander?

597
00:29:44.560 --> 00:29:45.900
Who gave them the order?

598
00:29:45.900 --> 00:29:47.400
We still don’t know that.

599
00:29:47.400 --> 00:29:48.600
And thank you,

600
00:29:48.600 --> 00:29:52.310
Senator Feinstein and Senate
Select Committee on Intelligence,

601
00:29:52.310 --> 00:29:55.090
but we need to understand
the chain of command,

602
00:29:55.090 --> 00:29:56.700
about who gave the order

603
00:29:56.700 --> 00:30:01.450
to weaponize health professionals
to inflict harm and to study it.

604
00:30:02.540 --> 00:30:04.050
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think Senator Udall—

605
00:30:04.050 --> 00:30:06.600
what Senator Mike Gravel is calling for—

606
00:30:06.600 --> 00:30:10.480
should have the whole report
put into the record?

607
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.350
It doesn’t just have to be Udall,
the outgoing senator from Colorado;

608
00:30:13.350 --> 00:30:14.650
it could be any senator.

609
00:30:14.650 --> 00:30:16.030
But are you calling for this?

610
00:30:16.030 --> 00:30:17.420
Do you think some of that information

611
00:30:17.420 --> 00:30:20.690
will be in those thousands
of pages that are still secret?

612
00:30:20.690 --> 00:30:24.990
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Based on people
that I have talked to over the 13 years

613
00:30:24.990 --> 00:30:27.150
I’ve been working on detainee abuse,

614
00:30:27.150 --> 00:30:31.820
there is a lot that appears to have
happened that we don’t know.

615
00:30:32.550 --> 00:30:37.870
You know, the president has said we
should look forward and not backwards.

616
00:30:37.870 --> 00:30:40.440
Well, we shouldn’t look
forward in blindness.

617
00:30:40.440 --> 00:30:43.350
Until we have the full accounting,

618
00:30:43.350 --> 00:30:47.480
that only a federal commission
can provide, including the release

619
00:30:47.480 --> 00:30:50.150
of the full Senate Select Committee
on Intelligence report,

620
00:30:50.150 --> 00:30:53.640
we don’t actually know fully
what we’re talking about.

621
00:30:53.640 --> 00:30:57.590
AMY GOODMAN: Should President Bush,
Vice President Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld,

622
00:30:57.590 --> 00:30:58.610
George Tenet—do you

623
00:30:58.610 --> 00:31:03.260
think these men should be charged
with crimes against humanity?

624
00:31:03.260 --> 00:31:07.740
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: I believe
that the challenge of now,

625
00:31:07.740 --> 00:31:09.900
the challenge of the past decade,

626
00:31:09.900 --> 00:31:14.240
is to resuscitate our institutions

627
00:31:14.240 --> 00:31:17.500
for them to be able to do
the accountability functions

628
00:31:17.500 --> 00:31:19.290
required by the law.

629
00:31:19.290 --> 00:31:23.290
Until we restore the rule of law
by holding those

630
00:31:23.290 --> 00:31:25.350
who gave the order accountable—

631
00:31:25.350 --> 00:31:26.870
not the people,

632
00:31:26.870 --> 00:31:28.700
the burger flippers at the bottom,

633
00:31:28.700 --> 00:31:30.790
not middle management,

634
00:31:30.790 --> 00:31:33.380
but the chain of command from the top—

635
00:31:33.380 --> 00:31:37.270
we have not done what the law requires.

636
00:31:37.830 --> 00:31:39.170
AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you
for being with us.

637
00:31:39.170 --> 00:31:39.970
NATHANIEL RAYMOND: Thank you.
AMY GOODMAN: Nathaniel Raymond,

638
00:31:39.970 --> 00:31:42.750
research ethics adviser
for Physicians for Human Rights,

639
00:31:42.750 --> 00:31:45.720
researcher at the Harvard School
of Public Health.

640
00:31:45.720 --> 00:31:46.990
This is Democracy Now!

641
00:31:46.990 --> 00:31:49.120
We will link to his report, "Doing Harm:

642
00:31:49.120 --> 00:31:52.260
Health Professionals’ Central Role
in the CIA Torture Program,"

643
00:31:52.260 --> 00:31:53.810
at democracynow.org.

644
00:31:53.810 --> 00:31:58.740
And when we come back,
we’ll be joined by Colonel Wilkerson

645
00:31:58.740 --> 00:32:01.700
to talk
about who should be held accountable.

646
00:32:01.700 --> 00:33:17.590
Stay with us.

647
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:25.150
AARON MATÉ: Since the release
of Senate findings this month,

648
00:33:25.150 --> 00:33:28.130
senior officials
from the George W. Bush administration

649
00:33:28.130 --> 00:33:30.350
have defended
their global torture program.

650
00:33:30.350 --> 00:33:32.100
Speaking to Meet the Press last week,

651
00:33:32.100 --> 00:33:33.910
former Vice President Dick Cheney

652
00:33:33.910 --> 00:33:36.820
said that with no major terror attack
since 9/11,

653
00:33:36.820 --> 00:33:39.620
he wouldn’t hesitate
to use torture again.

654
00:33:39.620 --> 00:33:42.560
DICK CHENEY: With respect
to trying to define that as torture,

655
00:33:42.560 --> 00:33:44.700
I come back to the proposition torture

656
00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:48.840
was what the al-Qaeda terrorists
did to 3,000 Americans on 9/11.

657
00:33:48.840 --> 00:33:50.650
There is no comparison

658
00:33:50.650 --> 00:33:53.800
between that and what we did
with respect to enhanced interrogation.

659
00:33:53.800 --> 00:33:55.380
... It worked. It worked now.

660
00:33:55.380 --> 00:33:59.000
For 13 years we’ve avoided
another mass casualty attack

661
00:33:59.000 --> 00:34:00.060
against the United States.

662
00:34:00.060 --> 00:34:01.460
We did capture bin Laden.

663
00:34:01.460 --> 00:34:03.750
We did capture an awful lot
of the senior guys

664
00:34:03.750 --> 00:34:06.310
of al-Qaeda who were responsible
for that attack on 9/11.

665
00:34:06.310 --> 00:34:07.510
I’d do it again in a minute.

666
00:34:08.100 --> 00:34:10.410
AARON MATÉ: The Obama administration
and top Democrats

667
00:34:10.410 --> 00:34:13.580
have contested Cheney’s claim
the torture program was effective,

668
00:34:13.580 --> 00:34:14.750
as well as legal.

669
00:34:14.750 --> 00:34:16.330
But what has gone unchallenged is

670
00:34:16.330 --> 00:34:21.030
the assumption the torture program’s
sole motive was post-9/11 self-defense.

671
00:34:21.030 --> 00:34:23.750
There has been almost no recognition
the Bush administration

672
00:34:23.750 --> 00:34:26.850
also tortured prisoners
for a very different goal:

673
00:34:26.850 --> 00:34:28.140
extract information

674
00:34:28.140 --> 00:34:30.430
that could tie al-Qaeda
to Saddam Hussein

675
00:34:30.430 --> 00:34:32.950
and justify the invasion of Iraq.

676
00:34:33.680 --> 00:34:36.540
AMY GOODMAN: Instead,
from President Obama on down,

677
00:34:36.540 --> 00:34:38.390
it’s been taken at face value

678
00:34:38.390 --> 00:34:41.760
that protecting the nation was
the Bush administration’s sole motive.

679
00:34:41.760 --> 00:34:44.140
Speaking to the network Univision,

680
00:34:44.140 --> 00:34:48.990
President Obama was asked if President
Bush had betrayed the country’s values.

681
00:34:48.990 --> 00:34:50.560
This was his response.

682
00:34:50.560 --> 00:34:52.970
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: As I’ve
said before, after 9/11,

683
00:34:52.970 --> 00:35:00.570
I don’t think that you can know
what it feels like to know that America

684
00:35:00.570 --> 00:35:03.060
has gone through the worst attack

685
00:35:03.060 --> 00:35:05.450
on the continental United States
in its history

686
00:35:06.510 --> 00:35:10.580
and you’re uncertain
as to what’s coming next.

687
00:35:11.750 --> 00:35:14.280
So, there were a lot of people
who did a lot of things right

688
00:35:14.280 --> 00:35:16.010
and worked very hard to keep us safe.

689
00:35:17.780 --> 00:35:22.370
But I think that any fair-minded person
looking at this would say

690
00:35:22.370 --> 00:35:26.690
that some terrible mistakes were made.

691
00:35:27.540 --> 00:35:29.350
AMY GOODMAN: President Obama’s comments

692
00:35:29.350 --> 00:35:31.600
were echoed
by CIA Director John Brennan.

693
00:35:31.600 --> 00:35:33.710
In his first response
to the Senate report,

694
00:35:33.710 --> 00:35:37.600
Brennan said those behind the torture
program faced agonizing choices

695
00:35:37.600 --> 00:35:40.190
in their effort
to protect the country after 9/11.

696
00:35:40.960 --> 00:35:43.700
JOHN BRENNAN: The previous
administration faced agonizing choices

697
00:35:43.700 --> 00:35:47.660
about how to pursue al-Qaeda and prevent
additional terrorist attacks

698
00:35:47.660 --> 00:35:49.240
against our country,

699
00:35:49.240 --> 00:35:51.840
while facing fears of further attacks

700
00:35:51.840 --> 00:35:53.900
and carrying out the responsibility

701
00:35:53.900 --> 00:35:56.620
to prevent more catastrophic loss
of life.

702
00:35:57.820 --> 00:35:59.870
There were no easy answers.

703
00:36:00.520 --> 00:36:04.570
And whatever your views
are on EITs, our nation,

704
00:36:04.570 --> 00:36:06.960
and in particular this agency,

705
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:10.730
did a lot of things
right during this difficult time

706
00:36:10.730 --> 00:36:13.580
to keep this country strong and secure.

707
00:36:13.580 --> 00:36:14.660
AARON MATÉ: Though the White House

708
00:36:14.660 --> 00:36:17.110
has not questioned
the Bush administration’s motives,

709
00:36:17.110 --> 00:36:18.730
there is no doubt torture

710
00:36:18.730 --> 00:36:21.790
played a major role
in the push for invading Iraq.

711
00:36:21.790 --> 00:36:23.040
And while the Senate report

712
00:36:23.040 --> 00:36:25.950
and other critics
say torture produced false information,

713
00:36:25.950 --> 00:36:28.260
that could have been
one of the program’s goals.

714
00:36:28.260 --> 00:36:30.510
In 2009, McClatchy reported,

715
00:36:30.510 --> 00:36:31.610
"The Bush administration

716
00:36:31.610 --> 00:36:34.120
applied relentless pressure
on interrogators

717
00:36:34.120 --> 00:36:36.870
to use harsh methods
on detainees in part

718
00:36:36.870 --> 00:36:39.830
to find evidence
of cooperation between al Qaida and ...

719
00:36:39.830 --> 00:36:41.320
Saddam Hussein’s regime."

720
00:36:41.320 --> 00:36:42.760
A "former senior U.S.

721
00:36:42.760 --> 00:36:43.990
intelligence official" said,

722
00:36:43.990 --> 00:36:47.490
quote, "There was constant pressure
on the intelligence agencies

723
00:36:47.490 --> 00:36:51.330
and the interrogators to do
whatever it took to get that information

724
00:36:51.330 --> 00:36:52.500
out of the detainees,

725
00:36:52.500 --> 00:36:55.060
especially the few high-value ones
we had,

726
00:36:55.060 --> 00:36:56.890
and when people kept coming up empty,

727
00:36:56.890 --> 00:37:00.130
they were told by Cheney’s
and Rumsfeld’s people to push harder."

728
00:37:00.130 --> 00:37:02.170
AMY GOODMAN: The Iraq-torture connection

729
00:37:02.170 --> 00:37:05.880
gets only bare mention
in the Senate intelligence report,

730
00:37:05.880 --> 00:37:07.540
but it’s still significant.

731
00:37:07.540 --> 00:37:11.480
In a footnote, the report
cites the case of Ibn Shaykh al-Libi.

732
00:37:11.480 --> 00:37:15.160
After U.S. forces
sent him for torture in Egypt,

733
00:37:15.160 --> 00:37:16.830
Libi made up the false claim

734
00:37:16.830 --> 00:37:21.330
that Iraq provided training in chemical
and biological weapons to al-Qaeda.

735
00:37:21.330 --> 00:37:25.040
Secretary of State Colin Powell
then used Libi’s statements

736
00:37:25.040 --> 00:37:27.150
in that famous February 5th,

737
00:37:27.150 --> 00:37:29.830
2003, speech at the United Nations

738
00:37:29.830 --> 00:37:33.280
falsely alleging Iraq possessed weapons
of mass destruction.

739
00:37:33.280 --> 00:37:36.690
The Senate report says, quote,
"Libi [later] recanted the claim ...

740
00:37:36.690 --> 00:37:38.330
claiming that he had been tortured ...

741
00:37:38.330 --> 00:37:41.830
and only told them what he assessed
they wanted to hear."

742
00:37:41.830 --> 00:37:43.290
Well, we’re joined now by a guest

743
00:37:43.290 --> 00:37:46.900
with unique insight into the Libi case
and other Bush-era uses of torture

744
00:37:46.900 --> 00:37:48.520
to justify the Iraq War:

745
00:37:48.520 --> 00:37:50.720
retired Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson.

746
00:37:50.720 --> 00:37:54.160
He served as chief of staff
to Secretary of State Colin Powell

747
00:37:54.160 --> 00:37:56.860
from 2002 to 2005.

748
00:37:56.860 --> 00:37:59.450
Colonel Wilkerson
helped prepare that speech

749
00:37:59.450 --> 00:38:04.000
that General Powell gave at the U.N.,
only to later renounce it.

750
00:38:04.000 --> 00:38:08.220
He’s now a professor of government
and public policy at William & Mary.

751
00:38:08.220 --> 00:38:11.750
Retired Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson,
welcome to Democracy Now!

752
00:38:12.460 --> 00:38:16.240
Talk about the Libi case
and how seminal it was.

753
00:38:17.690 --> 00:38:20.520
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Amy,
it’s probably the most seminal moment

754
00:38:20.520 --> 00:38:23.570
in my memory
of those five days and nights

755
00:38:23.570 --> 00:38:25.640
out at Langley at the CIA headquarters

756
00:38:25.640 --> 00:38:28.440
with George Tenet
and his deputy, John McLaughlin.

757
00:38:29.430 --> 00:38:30.940
Powell had rarely,

758
00:38:30.940 --> 00:38:34.500
in the some eight years or so
I had worked for him to that point,

759
00:38:35.060 --> 00:38:38.550
grown so angry with me
that he, in this case,

760
00:38:38.550 --> 00:38:42.250
physically grabbed me
and took me to the spaces

761
00:38:42.250 --> 00:38:47.860
that were empty in the room
adjacent to the DCI conference room,

762
00:38:47.860 --> 00:38:49.700
sat me down in a chair

763
00:38:49.700 --> 00:38:55.660
and essentially lectured me on how he
was dissatisfied with and very unhappy

764
00:38:55.660 --> 00:38:58.710
with the portions in his presentation

765
00:38:58.710 --> 00:39:00.140
that dealt with terrorism,

766
00:39:00.140 --> 00:39:02.990
particularly the connections
with Baghdad and al-Qaeda.

767
00:39:03.890 --> 00:39:08.850
And I quickly apprised him of the fact
that I was just as uneasy as he was.

768
00:39:08.850 --> 00:39:09.920
He calmed down a bit,

769
00:39:09.920 --> 00:39:11.840
and he said, "Well, let’s throw it out."

770
00:39:11.840 --> 00:39:13.320
We did. We threw it out.

771
00:39:13.870 --> 00:39:16.880
Within about 30 to 45 minutes,

772
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:21.830
we were back in the DCI conference room
to resume that night’s rehearsal,

773
00:39:21.830 --> 00:39:26.610
and George Tenet
himself laid a bombshell on the table.

774
00:39:26.610 --> 00:39:27.800
He essentially said—

775
00:39:27.800 --> 00:39:30.170
and these are almost direct quotes:

776
00:39:31.520 --> 00:39:33.910
"We have learned from the interrogation

777
00:39:33.910 --> 00:39:36.810
of a high-level al-Qaeda operative

778
00:39:36.810 --> 00:39:41.760
that not only were there substantial
contacts between al-Qaeda and Baghdad,

779
00:39:42.660 --> 00:39:48.880
that those contacts included
Baghdad Mukhabarat, secret police,

780
00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:50.800
Saddam’s special people,

781
00:39:50.800 --> 00:39:52.580
training al-Qaeda operatives

782
00:39:52.580 --> 00:39:55.380
in how to use chemical
and biological weapons."

783
00:39:55.380 --> 00:39:57.850
That’s almost a direct quote, Amy.

784
00:39:57.850 --> 00:40:01.510
At that point, Powell turned to me
and said, "Put it back in."

785
00:40:01.510 --> 00:40:03.570
And from that point on,

786
00:40:03.570 --> 00:40:06.410
though I did take
some of the stuff out as late

787
00:40:06.410 --> 00:40:09.350
as 2:00 a.m. in the morning
in the Waldorf-Astoria

788
00:40:09.350 --> 00:40:12.010
prior to the morning
of the presentation,

789
00:40:12.010 --> 00:40:15.840
and had Phil Mudd,
George Tenet’s counterterrorism czar,

790
00:40:15.840 --> 00:40:18.030
standing behind me in the Waldorf,

791
00:40:18.030 --> 00:40:20.400
trying to prevent me
from taking things out,

792
00:40:20.400 --> 00:40:24.070
until I finally told him I would
physically remove him from the room

793
00:40:24.070 --> 00:40:27.270
if he didn’t leave of his own will,

794
00:40:27.270 --> 00:40:30.980
people were trying to get that portion
back into the presentation.

795
00:40:30.980 --> 00:40:32.390
But the damage was done.

796
00:40:32.390 --> 00:40:34.840
The secretary, as you know,

797
00:40:34.840 --> 00:40:38.260
presented the information
as if there were substantial contacts.

798
00:40:39.180 --> 00:40:40.890
AARON MATÉ: Colonel, in your judgment,

799
00:40:40.890 --> 00:40:46.200
how big of a motive was the Iraq War
in the torture program,

800
00:40:46.200 --> 00:40:47.480
in the torture of prisoners

801
00:40:47.480 --> 00:40:50.650
to get information that could tie
al-Qaeda to Saddam Hussein?

802
00:40:51.690 --> 00:40:54.620
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: One
of the things that I have to say rather

803
00:40:54.620 --> 00:40:57.930
stunned me was when Powell, in April,

804
00:40:57.930 --> 00:41:01.080
right after the Abu Ghraib incident
was made public

805
00:41:01.080 --> 00:41:02.810
or incidents were made public,

806
00:41:02.810 --> 00:41:06.170
asked me to look into it
and to get a tick-tock for him,

807
00:41:06.170 --> 00:41:08.240
to get a chronology—essentially,

808
00:41:08.240 --> 00:41:10.420
to tell him how we got to that point.

809
00:41:10.420 --> 00:41:12.860
And I began my investigation.

810
00:41:12.860 --> 00:41:18.660
I learned that there was,
as early as April-May 2002,

811
00:41:18.660 --> 00:41:22.790
efforts to use
enhanced interrogation techniques,

812
00:41:22.790 --> 00:41:27.520
also to build a legal regime
under which they could be conducted,

813
00:41:27.520 --> 00:41:32.330
and that those efforts were
as much aimed at al-Qaeda and contacts

814
00:41:32.330 --> 00:41:33.960
between Baghdad and al-Qaeda,

815
00:41:33.960 --> 00:41:35.720
and corroboration thereof,

816
00:41:35.720 --> 00:41:37.660
as they were trying to ferret out

817
00:41:37.660 --> 00:41:40.770
whether or not there was another attack
coming, like 9/11.

818
00:41:41.400 --> 00:41:44.400
That was stunning to me
to find out that that was part—

819
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:46.750
I’d say probably 50 percent
of the impetus

820
00:41:46.750 --> 00:41:53.060
that I discovered in both the classified
and unclassified material I looked into.

821
00:41:53.060 --> 00:41:55.510
AMY GOODMAN: In June,
we spoke to Richard Clarke,

822
00:41:55.510 --> 00:41:57.940
the nation’s former
top counterterrorism official.

823
00:41:57.940 --> 00:42:01.270
Clarke served as national coordinator
for security and counterterrorism

824
00:42:01.270 --> 00:42:03.870
during Bush’s first year in office.

825
00:42:03.870 --> 00:42:07.340
He resigned in 2003
following the Iraq invasion.

826
00:42:07.340 --> 00:42:10.020
Clarke said that after 9/11,
right after,

827
00:42:10.020 --> 00:42:11.120
in the days after,

828
00:42:11.120 --> 00:42:15.190
President Bush had wanted him
to place the blame on Iraq.

829
00:42:15.930 --> 00:42:19.080
RICHARD CLARKE: I resigned,
quit the government altogether,

830
00:42:20.290 --> 00:42:22.580
testified
before congressional committees

831
00:42:22.580 --> 00:42:24.510
and before the 9/11 Commission,

832
00:42:24.510 --> 00:42:26.210
wrote a book

833
00:42:26.210 --> 00:42:31.100
revealing what the Bush administration
had and had not done to stop 9/11

834
00:42:31.630 --> 00:42:33.480
and what they did after the fact,

835
00:42:33.480 --> 00:42:35.810
how the president wanted me,
after the fact,

836
00:42:35.810 --> 00:42:39.410
to blame Iraq for the 9/11 attack.

837
00:42:40.490 --> 00:42:43.620
AMY GOODMAN: Richard Clarke also says
he believes President George W. Bush

838
00:42:43.620 --> 00:42:48.000
is guilty of war crimes
for launching the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

839
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:49.340
RICHARD CLARKE: I think things

840
00:42:49.340 --> 00:42:54.830
that they authorized probably fall
within the area of war crimes.

841
00:42:55.970 --> 00:42:58.670
Whether that would be productive
or not, I think,

842
00:42:58.670 --> 00:43:00.770
is a discussion we could all have.

843
00:43:00.770 --> 00:43:05.950
But we have established procedures now
with the International Criminal Court

844
00:43:05.950 --> 00:43:08.880
in The Hague where people

845
00:43:08.880 --> 00:43:14.440
who take actions as serving presidents
or prime ministers of countries

846
00:43:15.140 --> 00:43:19.280
have been indicted and have been tried.

847
00:43:20.130 --> 00:43:24.280
So the precedent is there
to do that sort of thing.

848
00:43:24.280 --> 00:43:28.070
AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s Richard Clarke,
Bush’s former counterterrorism czar,

849
00:43:28.070 --> 00:43:29.420
who said Bush came up to him

850
00:43:29.420 --> 00:43:32.170
right after the 9/11 attacks to say,

851
00:43:32.170 --> 00:43:35.090
"Start linking this to Iraq.

852
00:43:35.940 --> 00:43:37.780
" Colonel Wilkerson,

853
00:43:37.780 --> 00:43:39.490
he’s a Bush administration official.

854
00:43:39.490 --> 00:43:41.090
You’re a Bush administration official.

855
00:43:41.090 --> 00:43:43.940
Of course, the man
you worked for, Colin Powell,

856
00:43:43.940 --> 00:43:47.020
was a Bush administration official,
secretary of state.

857
00:43:47.020 --> 00:43:53.100
Do you think that President Bush,
Vice President Cheney,

858
00:43:53.100 --> 00:43:55.170
George Tenet, head of the CIA,

859
00:43:55.170 --> 00:43:58.760
and others should be held
accountable for war crimes,

860
00:43:58.760 --> 00:44:00.540
should be actually charged?

861
00:44:02.540 --> 00:44:05.740
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: I have to say
that after all of my investigations,

862
00:44:05.740 --> 00:44:10.910
my students looking into the episodes
in case studies and so forth,

863
00:44:10.910 --> 00:44:14.240
my own personal experience
in that administration,

864
00:44:14.780 --> 00:44:18.640
I can only give you an answer
that is, I think,

865
00:44:18.640 --> 00:44:21.490
utopian, I think
it’s far too optimistic,

866
00:44:21.490 --> 00:44:23.630
it’s Pollyannaish: yes.

867
00:44:23.630 --> 00:44:26.680
But I don’t think for a moment
that it’s going to happen.

868
00:44:27.440 --> 00:44:31.950
AARON MATÉ: Colonel, the Senate report
says that 26 innocent people

869
00:44:31.950 --> 00:44:33.400
were caught up in the program,

870
00:44:33.400 --> 00:44:35.300
and former Vice President Cheney
addressed this.

871
00:44:35.300 --> 00:44:37.800
Speaking to Meet the Press,
he was asked about the report

872
00:44:37.800 --> 00:44:40.820
finding that 26
of the 119 prisoners were innocent.

873
00:44:40.820 --> 00:44:42.540
This was his response.

874
00:44:42.540 --> 00:44:45.420
DICK CHENEY: I’m more concerned
with bad guys who got out

875
00:44:45.420 --> 00:44:50.210
and were released than I am with a few
that in fact were innocent.

876
00:44:50.210 --> 00:44:52.540
CHUCK TODD: Twenty-five percent
of the detainees, though.

877
00:44:52.540 --> 00:44:55.060
Twenty-five percent
turned out not to have—

878
00:44:55.060 --> 00:44:56.260
turned out to be innocent. They were—

879
00:44:56.260 --> 00:44:57.910
DICK CHENEY: So, where are you going
to draw the line, Chuck?

880
00:44:57.910 --> 00:44:58.910
How are you going to know?

881
00:44:58.910 --> 00:45:00.010
CHUCK TODD: Well, I’m asking you.
DICK CHENEY: I’m saying—

882
00:45:00.010 --> 00:45:01.830
CHUCK TODD: Is that too high? Is that—
you’re OK with that margin for error?

883
00:45:01.830 --> 00:45:04.620
DICK CHENEY: I have no problem
as long as we achieve our objective.

884
00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:06.530
AARON MATÉ: That was Chuck Todd

885
00:45:06.530 --> 00:45:08.780
questioning
former Vice President Dick Cheney.

886
00:45:08.780 --> 00:45:10.710
Colonel Wilkerson,
can you respond to what Cheney said?

887
00:45:10.710 --> 00:45:12.620
And also address the issue of innocence.

888
00:45:12.620 --> 00:45:15.440
Do you think that the 26 figure
is too low?

889
00:45:16.470 --> 00:45:19.180
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Definitely too
low, when you consider the entire prison

890
00:45:19.180 --> 00:45:20.260
population.

891
00:45:20.260 --> 00:45:22.100
As I’ve said many times in the past,

892
00:45:22.740 --> 00:45:26.380
I am quite confident
that probably a half to two-thirds,

893
00:45:26.380 --> 00:45:27.760
possibly even more,

894
00:45:27.760 --> 00:45:31.620
of those initially put
in Guantánamo, some 700-plus people,

895
00:45:31.620 --> 00:45:33.360
were just swept up on the battlefield,

896
00:45:33.360 --> 00:45:34.990
through bounty process or whatever,

897
00:45:34.990 --> 00:45:38.660
and were basically innocent of anything
other than being in the wrong place

898
00:45:38.660 --> 00:45:39.880
at the wrong time.

899
00:45:39.880 --> 00:45:41.890
But let’s look at what Dick Cheney said.

900
00:45:41.890 --> 00:45:43.390
This is pure Cheney.

901
00:45:43.390 --> 00:45:45.660
This is Cheney and Rumsfeld’s tactic.

902
00:45:45.660 --> 00:45:48.010
They immediately deflect the question,

903
00:45:48.010 --> 00:45:51.430
which is a solid question
which they simply can’t answer.

904
00:45:51.430 --> 00:45:54.880
They immediately deflect it
to the other side of the equation,

905
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:57.130
whether it’s
the ticking time bomb argument,

906
00:45:57.130 --> 00:45:59.310
which is a fallacious
and stupid argument

907
00:45:59.310 --> 00:46:01.610
if you really parse it well,

908
00:46:01.610 --> 00:46:02.680
or whether it’s,

909
00:46:02.680 --> 00:46:04.210
as Cheney did here,

910
00:46:04.210 --> 00:46:06.590
that, you know, 75 percent were guilty,

911
00:46:06.590 --> 00:46:08.270
and any one of those
might have done something,

912
00:46:08.270 --> 00:46:09.990
and so I was good in what I did.

913
00:46:09.990 --> 00:46:13.560
This is Cheney, amoral, amoral Cheney.

914
00:46:13.560 --> 00:46:15.760
What you must look at, too,

915
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:20.450
and what I wish that interrogator
of Cheney had looked at, is,

916
00:46:20.450 --> 00:46:21.570
we know—

917
00:46:21.570 --> 00:46:24.140
we know positively that a minimum—

918
00:46:24.140 --> 00:46:25.550
and I suspect it’s higher—

919
00:46:25.550 --> 00:46:30.100
of 39 people
died in the interrogation process.

920
00:46:30.100 --> 00:46:31.950
Why does no one ever mention that?

921
00:46:32.530 --> 00:46:33.730
We know, too,

922
00:46:33.730 --> 00:46:37.410
that in some of those cases
the military or civilian coroner

923
00:46:37.410 --> 00:46:42.140
involved found the cause
of that death to be homicide.

924
00:46:42.140 --> 00:46:43.760
The most famous case, of course,

925
00:46:43.760 --> 00:46:45.390
Alex Gibney in his documentary,

926
00:46:45.390 --> 00:46:47.030
Taxi to the Dark Side,

927
00:46:47.030 --> 00:46:50.230
Dilawar in Afghanistan, is known about,

928
00:46:50.230 --> 00:46:52.140
but even that’s been forgotten.

929
00:46:52.140 --> 00:46:56.110
We murdered people
whom we were interrogating.

930
00:46:56.110 --> 00:46:57.960
Isn’t that the ultimate torture?

931
00:46:57.960 --> 00:46:59.900
No one ever asks Dick about that.

932
00:47:00.690 --> 00:47:02.100
AMY GOODMAN: Colonel Wilkerson,
that number,

933
00:47:02.100 --> 00:47:06.030
39 people killed by torturers,
where do you get that number,

934
00:47:06.030 --> 00:47:07.650
and where were they killed?

935
00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:09.840
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: That number
comes from Human Rights

936
00:47:09.840 --> 00:47:13.000
First’s initial report
on command responsibility

937
00:47:13.000 --> 00:47:14.410
in the interrogation program,

938
00:47:14.410 --> 00:47:16.620
which I believe came out quite early,

939
00:47:16.620 --> 00:47:18.830
2006-2007.

940
00:47:18.830 --> 00:47:21.670
It was 39 people who died in detention.

941
00:47:21.670 --> 00:47:24.650
Now, some of them
died of natural causes.

942
00:47:24.650 --> 00:47:26.190
They had a heart attack or whatever.

943
00:47:26.190 --> 00:47:27.820
Of course, the heart attack

944
00:47:27.820 --> 00:47:30.500
might have been brought on
by the very strenuous process

945
00:47:30.500 --> 00:47:31.550
they were going through,

946
00:47:31.550 --> 00:47:35.680
including hypothermic rooms
and stress and so forth and so on.

947
00:47:35.680 --> 00:47:40.580
But nonetheless,
several of those were judged homicides.

948
00:47:40.580 --> 00:47:44.770
In other words, either the contractor
for the CIA, the CIA

949
00:47:44.770 --> 00:47:48.270
or the military individual
conducting the interrogation

950
00:47:48.270 --> 00:47:50.800
was responsible for the death
of that person

951
00:47:50.800 --> 00:47:52.960
because of what they were doing to them.

952
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.040
That’s never talked about anymore.

953
00:47:55.890 --> 00:47:57.000
AMY GOODMAN: Final question.

954
00:47:58.490 --> 00:48:02.390
At the time
that Colin Powell gave that speech,

955
00:48:02.390 --> 00:48:05.530
that infamous speech that he would later
call a blot on his career,

956
00:48:05.530 --> 00:48:07.210
February 5th, 2003,

957
00:48:07.210 --> 00:48:08.610
at the U.N.,

958
00:48:08.610 --> 00:48:12.990
there were many who were saying,
including weapons inspectors in Iraq,

959
00:48:12.990 --> 00:48:17.660
that the allegation of weapons
of mass destruction was not true.

960
00:48:18.230 --> 00:48:23.180
What would have penetrated the bubble
for you, Colonel Wilkerson—for example,

961
00:48:23.180 --> 00:48:24.740
to peace activists and others—

962
00:48:24.740 --> 00:48:26.290
to be able to reach you,

963
00:48:26.290 --> 00:48:28.140
to reach Colin Powell?

964
00:48:28.140 --> 00:48:30.910
Why could they continue to say this,

965
00:48:30.910 --> 00:48:34.340
with lots of evidence
behind it, yet you didn’t hear it?

966
00:48:35.780 --> 00:48:37.820
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: I think
there was objection

967
00:48:37.820 --> 00:48:39.550
that made its way through to us.

968
00:48:39.550 --> 00:48:41.830
After all, we had an intelligence

969
00:48:41.830 --> 00:48:44.730
and research group
at the State Department, INR,

970
00:48:44.730 --> 00:48:47.470
and an assistant secretary, Carl Ford,

971
00:48:47.470 --> 00:48:49.980
who objected rather strenuously

972
00:48:49.980 --> 00:48:54.370
to one-third of the major elements
of Powell’s presentation,

973
00:48:54.370 --> 00:48:56.690
the most dangerous element, if you will—

974
00:48:56.690 --> 00:48:58.660
the active nuclear program.

975
00:48:58.660 --> 00:49:00.360
So, we had opposition.

976
00:49:00.360 --> 00:49:02.260
But, Amy, when you have a secretary

977
00:49:02.260 --> 00:49:05.720
of state of the United States
sitting down with the representative

978
00:49:05.720 --> 00:49:08.720
of the 16 intelligence entities,

979
00:49:08.720 --> 00:49:10.550
representing the military,

980
00:49:10.550 --> 00:49:15.030
representing NSA,
representing DIA, the CIA, of course,

981
00:49:15.030 --> 00:49:16.480
and all the other entities

982
00:49:16.480 --> 00:49:19.460
that we spend some $80 billion a year

983
00:49:19.460 --> 00:49:21.570
to keep up and working,

984
00:49:21.570 --> 00:49:23.930
and telling the secretary of state,

985
00:49:23.930 --> 00:49:26.190
who is not an intelligence professional,

986
00:49:26.190 --> 00:49:28.030
that this is the case

987
00:49:28.030 --> 00:49:29.610
and this is the proof,

988
00:49:29.610 --> 00:49:32.180
it’s very difficult
for the secretary of state

989
00:49:32.180 --> 00:49:33.280
to push back and say,

990
00:49:33.280 --> 00:49:35.600
"No, I’ve got some element here

991
00:49:35.600 --> 00:49:37.510
that tells me you’re not right."

992
00:49:37.510 --> 00:49:40.040
Powell did that,
on a number of occasions.

993
00:49:40.040 --> 00:49:44.240
But in each case,
with few exceptions that were important,

994
00:49:44.240 --> 00:49:45.390
Tenet and McLaughlin

995
00:49:45.390 --> 00:49:47.920
pushed back with the weight
of the intelligence community.

996
00:49:47.920 --> 00:49:50.870
And people forget,
Tenet was pushing back,

997
00:49:50.870 --> 00:49:52.700
as he said, quite frequently,

998
00:49:52.700 --> 00:49:55.230
with the Germans, the Israelis,

999
00:49:55.230 --> 00:49:56.550
the French and,

1000
00:49:56.550 --> 00:49:59.580
as he would put it,
all the other countries in the world

1001
00:49:59.580 --> 00:50:04.200
who have reasonably good intelligence
and intelligence institutions

1002
00:50:04.200 --> 00:50:06.270
and are corroborating what I’m saying.

1003
00:50:06.270 --> 00:50:10.580
So, this is a very difficult situation
for the secretary of state.

1004
00:50:10.580 --> 00:50:12.880
AMY GOODMAN: Do you think John Brennan,

1005
00:50:12.880 --> 00:50:15.130
head of the CIA,
should immediately be fired?

1006
00:50:16.360 --> 00:50:18.550
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: I think
John Brennan should have been fired

1007
00:50:18.550 --> 00:50:20.390
a long time ago. Long time ago.

1008
00:50:20.390 --> 00:50:22.560
AMY GOODMAN: Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson,
we’re going to have to wrap this break,

1009
00:50:22.560 --> 00:50:24.350
but we’re going
to ask you to stay with us.

1010
00:50:24.350 --> 00:50:27.440
You served as chief of staff
to Secretary of State Colin Powell

1011
00:50:27.440 --> 00:50:30.120
from 2002 to 2005.

1012
00:50:30.120 --> 00:50:31.980
But we’re going to go back in time.

1013
00:50:31.980 --> 00:50:36.630
We’re going to—it is the 25th
anniversary of the invasion of Panama.

1014
00:50:36.630 --> 00:50:41.490
At the time, Colin Powell was the chair
of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

1015
00:50:41.490 --> 00:50:44.020
We’re going to have a discussion
about this anniversary.

1016
00:50:44.020 --> 00:52:18.120
Stay with us.

1017
00:52:24.150 --> 00:52:30.130
AARON MATÉ: This month

1018
00:52:30.130 --> 00:52:33.920
marks the 25th anniversary
of the U.S.-led invasion of Panama.

1019
00:52:33.920 --> 00:52:36.500
Early in the morning
of December 20th, 1989,

1020
00:52:36.500 --> 00:52:40.410
President George H.W. Bush
launched Operation Just Cause,

1021
00:52:40.410 --> 00:52:44.970
sending tens of thousands of troops
and hundreds of aircraft into Panama

1022
00:52:44.970 --> 00:52:48.200
to execute an arrest warrant
against its leader, Manuel Noriega,

1023
00:52:48.200 --> 00:52:50.030
on charges of drug trafficking.

1024
00:52:50.030 --> 00:52:53.010
General Noriega was once
a close ally to Washington

1025
00:52:53.010 --> 00:52:54.900
and on the CIA payroll.

1026
00:52:54.900 --> 00:52:56.290
But after 1986,

1027
00:52:56.290 --> 00:52:59.370
his relationship with Washington
took a turn for the worse.

1028
00:52:59.370 --> 00:53:03.390
During the attack, the U.S.
unleashed a force of 24,000 troops,

1029
00:53:03.390 --> 00:53:08.100
equipped with highly sophisticated
weaponry and aircraft, against a country

1030
00:53:08.100 --> 00:53:11.850
with an army smaller than
the New York City Police Department.

1031
00:53:11.850 --> 00:53:13.430
AMY GOODMAN: We’re joined now
by three guests:

1032
00:53:13.430 --> 00:53:15.830
Humberto Brown,
former Panamanian diplomat;

1033
00:53:15.830 --> 00:53:18.070
Greg Grandin, professor
of Latin American history

1034
00:53:18.070 --> 00:53:20.070
at New York University,
his most recent book,

1035
00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:21.340
The Empire of Necessity:

1036
00:53:21.340 --> 00:53:22.750
Slavery, Freedom, and Deception

1037
00:53:22.750 --> 00:53:24.430
in the New World_,
his most recent article

1038
00:53:24.430 --> 00:53:24.460
[http://www.tomdispatch.com/blog/175937/
tomgram%3A_greg_grandin,_how_the_iraq_wa

1039
00:53:24.460 --> 00:53:26.020
r_began_in]panama/ for TomDispatch,

1040
00:53:26.020 --> 00:53:27.720
"The War to Start All Wars:

1041
00:53:27.720 --> 00:53:30.680
The 25th Anniversary
of the Forgotten Invasion of Panama";

1042
00:53:30.680 --> 00:53:33.030
and still with us in Washington, D.C.,

1043
00:53:33.030 --> 00:53:35.120
retired Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson,

1044
00:53:35.120 --> 00:53:37.290
special assistant
to the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

1045
00:53:37.290 --> 00:53:39.620
which was chaired
by General Colin Powell

1046
00:53:39.620 --> 00:53:41.990
at the time of the invasion.

1047
00:53:41.990 --> 00:53:43.330
Greg Grandin, let’s start with you.

1048
00:53:43.330 --> 00:53:45.080
Why is this anniversary—

1049
00:53:45.080 --> 00:53:46.750
why the 25th anniversary?

1050
00:53:46.750 --> 00:53:47.910
What do you have to say,

1051
00:53:47.910 --> 00:53:50.510
going back 25 years
ago, is the most important thing

1052
00:53:50.510 --> 00:53:52.820
to understand about what happened?

1053
00:53:52.820 --> 00:53:54.890
GREG GRANDIN: That the invasion
of Panama took place a month

1054
00:53:54.890 --> 00:53:56.400
after the fall of the Berlin Wall,

1055
00:53:56.400 --> 00:53:59.190
and it really set the terms
for future interventions

1056
00:53:59.190 --> 00:54:00.310
in a number of ways.

1057
00:54:00.310 --> 00:54:01.980
One, it was unilateral.

1058
00:54:01.980 --> 00:54:04.630
It was done without the sanction
of the United Nations,

1059
00:54:04.630 --> 00:54:07.180
without the sanction
of the Organization of American States,

1060
00:54:07.180 --> 00:54:10.580
which was a fairly risky thing
for the United States.

1061
00:54:10.580 --> 00:54:13.570
It didn’t occur often,
even during the Cold War.

1062
00:54:13.570 --> 00:54:15.770
Two, it was a violation
of national sovereignty,

1063
00:54:15.770 --> 00:54:18.310
which of course the United States
did often during the Cold War,

1064
00:54:18.310 --> 00:54:19.690
but it was a violation—

1065
00:54:19.690 --> 00:54:21.520
the terms of the violation changed.

1066
00:54:21.520 --> 00:54:23.710
It was done in the name of democracy.

1067
00:54:23.710 --> 00:54:24.830
It was argued—

1068
00:54:24.830 --> 00:54:27.540
it was overtly argued
that national sovereignty

1069
00:54:27.540 --> 00:54:31.370
was subordinated to democracy,
or the United States’ right

1070
00:54:31.370 --> 00:54:33.400
to adjudicate the quality of democracy.

1071
00:54:33.400 --> 00:54:37.140
And three, it was a preview
to the first Gulf War.

1072
00:54:37.140 --> 00:54:41.140
It was a massive coordination
of awesome force

1073
00:54:41.140 --> 00:54:43.860
that was done spectacularly
for public consumption.

1074
00:54:43.860 --> 00:54:47.710
It was about putting
the Vietnam syndrome to rest.

1075
00:54:47.710 --> 00:54:49.640
AMY GOODMAN: Talk
about the effects, Humberto Brown—

1076
00:54:49.640 --> 00:54:51.970
you were a Panamanian diplomat
at the time—

1077
00:54:51.970 --> 00:54:54.090
the effects of the U.S. invasion.

1078
00:54:54.090 --> 00:54:56.420
The Pentagon said hundreds
of people died;

1079
00:54:56.420 --> 00:55:00.050
Panamanians said something
like 3,000 people died in this attack.

1080
00:55:00.050 --> 00:55:01.930
How long did it last?

1081
00:55:01.930 --> 00:55:05.170
HUMBERTO BROWN: Well, Amy,
just in the first hour,

1082
00:55:06.190 --> 00:55:07.750
we had had 200 and—

1083
00:55:07.750 --> 00:55:09.590
about close to 400 bombs

1084
00:55:09.590 --> 00:55:15.200
were dropped after midnight,
devastating poor neighborhoods—

1085
00:55:15.200 --> 00:55:18.320
El Chorrillo, Marañon, Caledonia.

1086
00:55:18.320 --> 00:55:21.340
So it was devastating, because, one,

1087
00:55:21.340 --> 00:55:24.360
the majority of the people
who suffered consequences of it

1088
00:55:24.360 --> 00:55:27.210
were poor people
in the urban areas.

1089
00:55:27.210 --> 00:55:32.500
And the elite,
who was complicit to this, were—

1090
00:55:32.500 --> 00:55:34.020
their neighborhoods were protected.

1091
00:55:34.020 --> 00:55:35.120
They were safe.

1092
00:55:35.120 --> 00:55:37.250
Some of them was removed
from their homes

1093
00:55:37.250 --> 00:55:39.190
and were placed in the Canal zone.

1094
00:55:39.190 --> 00:55:41.680
So it was two different approaches.

1095
00:55:41.680 --> 00:55:44.370
One was intimidation

1096
00:55:44.370 --> 00:55:53.780
and literally expressing no concern
for the poor, in a way.

1097
00:55:53.780 --> 00:55:55.750
So we think it was very devastating.

1098
00:55:55.750 --> 00:55:59.450
And it’s interesting
that at 25 years, this is the first time

1099
00:55:59.450 --> 00:56:04.140
one of the presidents are talking
about the need to answer the question

1100
00:56:04.140 --> 00:56:07.700
about how many people died,
how many people disappeared.

1101
00:56:07.700 --> 00:56:12.670
And on Saturday,
the new president, President Varela,

1102
00:56:12.670 --> 00:56:15.240
said that he wanted
to create a special commission

1103
00:56:15.240 --> 00:56:18.330
to investigate
what happened during the invasion,

1104
00:56:18.330 --> 00:56:19.530
how many people died,

1105
00:56:19.530 --> 00:56:22.940
because they’re attempting
to get a national reconciliation.

1106
00:56:23.680 --> 00:56:26.220
The debate—there’s always a debate
in Panama,

1107
00:56:26.220 --> 00:56:29.220
if we’d celebrate this as a day
of mourning.

1108
00:56:29.220 --> 00:56:31.260
The president calls it a day
of reflection,

1109
00:56:31.260 --> 00:56:34.050
and there’s a sector
that call it a day of liberation.

1110
00:56:34.050 --> 00:56:37.450
So we still have a conflicting view of
the impact of this invasion in Panama.

1111
00:56:37.980 --> 00:56:39.940
AARON MATÉ: And,
Colonel Wilkerson in Washington,

1112
00:56:39.940 --> 00:56:42.420
you were an aide
to Colin Powell during this time.

1113
00:56:42.420 --> 00:56:45.080
What’s your understanding
of why this attack took place?

1114
00:56:46.210 --> 00:56:48.130
COL. LAWRENCE WILKERSON: Well,
my understanding was the understanding

1115
00:56:48.130 --> 00:56:49.340
that the press reported.

1116
00:56:49.340 --> 00:56:52.900
It was everything from attacks
on or threatened attacks

1117
00:56:52.900 --> 00:56:56.520
on our officers and men
and women in the military in Panama

1118
00:56:56.520 --> 00:57:02.370
to drug trafficking
and extensive contacts with drug gangs

1119
00:57:02.370 --> 00:57:06.350
that had grown much larger
than the contacts with the CIA

1120
00:57:06.350 --> 00:57:08.620
had ever contemplated and so forth.

1121
00:57:08.620 --> 00:57:13.150
But I’ve got to say
that in what I teach,

1122
00:57:13.910 --> 00:57:18.780
you could learn a lot about
U.S. operations in its own hemisphere.

1123
00:57:18.780 --> 00:57:22.050
This was an operation, not so unique,

1124
00:57:22.050 --> 00:57:24.520
as one of the speakers just suggested.

1125
00:57:24.520 --> 00:57:27.670
Go back and look
at Marine General Smedley Butler,

1126
00:57:27.670 --> 00:57:29.960
in his testimony
to the then Armed Forces

1127
00:57:29.960 --> 00:57:31.340
Committee in the Congress,

1128
00:57:31.340 --> 00:57:34.010
where he essentially
compared himself to Al Capone,

1129
00:57:34.010 --> 00:57:36.450
and he said, "Al Capone
operated on one continent,

1130
00:57:36.450 --> 00:57:38.030
I operated on two.

1131
00:57:38.030 --> 00:57:41.590
I was a criminal
for American commercial interest."

1132
00:57:41.590 --> 00:57:43.540
We have invaded someone

1133
00:57:43.540 --> 00:57:48.240
or interjected our military force into
someone’s territory in the Caribbean

1134
00:57:48.240 --> 00:57:51.370
about 35 times since 1850.

1135
00:57:51.890 --> 00:57:53.240
This is our hemisphere.

1136
00:57:53.240 --> 00:57:55.740
The Monroe Doctrine
is still operational.

1137
00:57:55.740 --> 00:57:57.330
And we seem to think that we

1138
00:57:57.330 --> 00:58:00.130
can interfere in anyone’s country
at any time.

1139
00:58:00.130 --> 00:58:05.630
2002, we tried to foment a coup
in Caracas to overthrow Hugo Chávez.

1140
00:58:06.280 --> 00:58:07.440
This is nothing new.

1141
00:58:07.440 --> 00:58:10.170
This is the way
America operates in its own hemisphere.

1142
00:58:10.170 --> 00:58:11.630
AMY GOODMAN: We have 10 seconds,
Greg Grandin,

1143
00:58:11.630 --> 00:58:13.300
but then we’ll continue this
and put it online.

1144
00:58:13.300 --> 00:58:15.560
GREG GRANDIN: I agree completely.
The Cold War, though,

1145
00:58:15.560 --> 00:58:19.680
did force the United States to operate
under the legitimacy of multilateralism,

1146
00:58:19.680 --> 00:58:22.110
and that’s
what gets swept away with Panama,

1147
00:58:22.110 --> 00:58:23.140
with the invasion of Panama.

1148
00:58:23.140 --> 00:58:25.480
And it does set the terms
for future invasions.

1149
00:58:25.480 --> 00:58:26.520
But I agree completely.

1150
00:58:27.960 --> 00:58:30.580
AMY GOODMAN: Of course, General Noriega

1151
00:58:30.580 --> 00:58:33.830
was taken prisoner at the time
and brought to the United States.

1152
00:58:33.830 --> 00:58:35.530
And in our post-show interview,

1153
00:58:35.530 --> 00:58:40.920
we will continue that discussion about
why the U.S. changed its view of him,

1154
00:58:40.920 --> 00:58:44.650
from the U.S.'s man
to the U.S.'s prisoner.

1155
00:58:44.650 --> 00:58:48.840
Greg Grandin and Humberto Brown
and Colonel Wilkerson,

1156
00:58:48.840 --> 00:58:50.110
thanks so much for joining us.

1157
00:58:50.110 --> 00:58:54.720
Part two online at democracynow.org.