WEBVTT 1 00:00:15.080 --> 00:00:17.990 From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now! 2 00:00:17.990 --> 00:00:22.380 [translated] The prospect of this round of talks are not bad. 3 00:00:22.380 --> 00:00:23.880 I would even say they are good. 4 00:00:23.880 --> 00:00:25.090 The chances are high. 5 00:00:26.320 --> 00:00:29.700 Days of historic talks aimed at an Iran nuclear deal 6 00:00:29.700 --> 00:00:31.980 have reportedly concluded with a general agreement 7 00:00:31.980 --> 00:00:35.240 to begin a new phase set to conclude in June. 8 00:00:35.240 --> 00:00:38.690 We’ll go to Lausanne, Switzerland, for an update. 9 00:00:38.690 --> 00:00:41.620 We will also speak with Senator George Mitchell, 10 00:00:41.620 --> 00:00:44.270 former U.S. special envoy for Middle East peace 11 00:00:44.270 --> 00:00:45.890 under President Obama, 12 00:00:45.890 --> 00:00:49.000 on Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu opposition 13 00:00:49.000 --> 00:00:52.210 to the deal escalating a standoff with the White House. 14 00:00:52.210 --> 00:00:57.770 [translated] I expressed our deep concern 15 00:00:57.770 --> 00:01:01.460 towards this deal emerging with Iran nuclean talks. 16 00:01:01.460 --> 00:01:03.860 This deal, as it appears to be emerging, 17 00:01:03.860 --> 00:01:06.290 bears out all of our fears. 18 00:01:06.290 --> 00:01:11.800 And we’ll look at the talks on Israel Palestine conflict — 19 00:01:11.800 --> 00:01:13.180 possibility of them — 20 00:01:13.180 --> 00:01:17.240 following Netanyahu’s open rejection of a two state solution. 21 00:01:17.240 --> 00:01:20.730 Then, boycotts are underway against Indiana as the state 22 00:01:20.730 --> 00:01:24.680 faces fierce criticism over its new Religious Freedom Restoration Act 23 00:01:24.680 --> 00:01:27.640 that could sanction anti-LGBT discrimination 24 00:01:27.640 --> 00:01:32.660 by allowing business owners to refuse to serve LGBT customers 25 00:01:32.660 --> 00:01:34.210 in the name of religious freedom. 26 00:01:35.820 --> 00:01:39.570 It does not openly allow discrimination. 27 00:01:39.570 --> 00:01:43.470 No, what it does is it creates a roadmap, a roadmap, 28 00:01:43.470 --> 00:01:46.490 a path to get us to discrimination. 29 00:01:46.490 --> 00:01:48.400 Connecticut is the first state 30 00:01:48.400 --> 00:01:51.030 to officially boycott Indiana over the move. 31 00:01:51.030 --> 00:01:52.780 Now, San Francisco and Seattle 32 00:01:52.780 --> 00:01:57.160 have also imposed bans on city-funded travel to the state. 33 00:01:57.160 --> 00:02:00.130 Then, imprisoned and former Black Panther, 34 00:02:00.130 --> 00:02:03.550 Mumia Abu-Jamal has been taken to the intensive care unit 35 00:02:03.550 --> 00:02:05.800 of the Pottsville, 36 00:02:05.800 --> 00:02:06.840 Pennsylvania 37 00:02:06.840 --> 00:02:10.080 after he was removed from prison for a medical emergency 38 00:02:10.080 --> 00:02:13.180 without notification to his family, friends or lawyers. 39 00:02:13.180 --> 00:02:17.180 Prison officials told his supporters he’s in diabetic shock. 40 00:02:17.180 --> 00:02:18.310 We’ll get an update. 41 00:02:18.310 --> 00:02:19.760 All that and more coming up. 42 00:02:25.740 --> 00:02:28.570 Welcome to Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, 43 00:02:28.570 --> 00:02:30.740 The War and Peace Report, I’m Amy Goodman. 44 00:02:30.740 --> 00:02:34.820 Six days of historic talks aimed at a nuclear deal with Iran 45 00:02:34.820 --> 00:02:36.610 are wrapping up in Lausanne, Switzerland. 46 00:02:36.610 --> 00:02:40.010 Today marks a self-imposed deadline for the deal between Iran, 47 00:02:40.010 --> 00:02:43.110 the United States and five other world powers. 48 00:02:43.110 --> 00:02:46.610 The Associated Press reports the talks will conclude with an agreement 49 00:02:46.610 --> 00:02:49.900 to continue a new phase aimed at reaching a comprehensive accord 50 00:02:49.900 --> 00:02:51.230 by the end of June. 51 00:02:51.230 --> 00:02:53.740 Speaking before he rejoined talks today, 52 00:02:53.740 --> 00:02:58.220 Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov said prospects for a deal are good. 53 00:02:59.940 --> 00:03:02.560 Sergei Lavrov: "The perspectives of this round of talks are not bad, 54 00:03:02.560 --> 00:03:04.110 I would even say they are good. 55 00:03:04.110 --> 00:03:05.510 The chances are high. 56 00:03:05.510 --> 00:03:07.380 They are probably not 100 percent, 57 00:03:07.380 --> 00:03:10.120 but you can never be 100 percent certain of anything. 58 00:03:10.120 --> 00:03:13.400 These chances are quite 'doable' if none of the talks’ parties 59 00:03:13.400 --> 00:03:15.070 raise the stakes at the last minute, 60 00:03:15.070 --> 00:03:18.120 hoping to gain something extra in the final stage 61 00:03:18.120 --> 00:03:20.380 instead of preserving the balance of interests." 62 00:03:20.380 --> 00:03:22.520 The Pentagon has rejected claims 63 00:03:22.520 --> 00:03:26.060 a U.S. drone strike killed two Iranian military advisors 64 00:03:26.060 --> 00:03:30.080 who were aiding Iraqi attempts to retake the city of Tikrit 65 00:03:30.080 --> 00:03:32.600 from the self-proclaimed Islamic State. 66 00:03:32.600 --> 00:03:35.930 Iran said the two men were killed on March 23, two days 67 00:03:35.930 --> 00:03:39.360 before the United States said it began airstrikes. 68 00:03:39.360 --> 00:03:43.550 Saudi-led forces have intensified their aerial bombardment of Yemen 69 00:03:43.550 --> 00:03:46.350 and launched strikes from warships around Aden 70 00:03:46.350 --> 00:03:50.230 in a bid to prevent Houthi rebels from advancing on the city. 71 00:03:50.230 --> 00:03:51.850 On Monday, at least 40 people 72 00:03:51.850 --> 00:03:55.680 were reportedly killed when an airstrike hit the Al Mazraq camp 73 00:03:55.680 --> 00:03:58.640 for displaced people in a Houthi-controlled area 74 00:03:58.640 --> 00:03:59.720 in the north. 75 00:03:59.720 --> 00:04:01.760 According to Doctors Without Borders, 76 00:04:01.760 --> 00:04:06.600 about 500 new families had arrived at the camp over the past few days, 77 00:04:06.600 --> 00:04:09.290 fleeing bombings in other parts of Yemen. 78 00:04:10.000 --> 00:04:13.780 In Nigeria, former military ruler Muhammadu Buhari 79 00:04:13.780 --> 00:04:15.920 is leading in the presidential election. 80 00:04:15.920 --> 00:04:18.490 With over half of states declared, 81 00:04:18.490 --> 00:04:20.750 Buhari is ahead by about two million votes, 82 00:04:20.750 --> 00:04:23.160 threatening to make President Goodluck Jonathan 83 00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:24.290 the first incumbent 84 00:04:24.290 --> 00:04:27.030 to lose at the polls in Nigeria’s history. 85 00:04:27.030 --> 00:04:30.100 The polling took place amid violent attacks 86 00:04:30.100 --> 00:04:32.690 which killed an estimated 50 people. 87 00:04:32.690 --> 00:04:35.660 Addressing the U.N. Security Council by video stream, 88 00:04:35.660 --> 00:04:37.080 Mohammed Ibn Chambas, 89 00:04:37.080 --> 00:04:39.060 head of the U.N. office for West Africa, 90 00:04:39.060 --> 00:04:42.600 described the ongoing threat from the militant group Boko Haram. 91 00:04:43.470 --> 00:04:45.630 Mohammed Ibn Chambas: "Today as we meet, 92 00:04:45.630 --> 00:04:46.710 though weakened, 93 00:04:47.320 --> 00:04:51.970 the group continues to commit horrendous acts against civilians, 94 00:04:51.970 --> 00:04:54.360 including women and children. 95 00:04:55.140 --> 00:04:59.080 We’ve received reports that children, in particular, 96 00:04:59.080 --> 00:05:03.750 have been abducted, abused, recruited, maimed and killed. 97 00:05:04.500 --> 00:05:10.870 Schools in northeast Nigeria are no longer safe places of learning, 98 00:05:10.870 --> 00:05:16.630 as many of them continue to be attacked, looted and destroyed. 99 00:05:17.270 --> 00:05:21.010 Several schools in the areas targeted by Boko Haram 100 00:05:21.010 --> 00:05:23.260 in Cameroon and Niger 101 00:05:23.260 --> 00:05:24.910 also remain closed." 102 00:05:25.420 --> 00:05:26.720 Two Nigerian journalists 103 00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:29.610 working for Al Jazeera have been detained in their hotel room 104 00:05:29.610 --> 00:05:31.800 in Maiduguri for a week. 105 00:05:31.800 --> 00:05:35.750 Nigerian authorities have accused Ahmed Idris and Ali Mustafa 106 00:05:35.750 --> 00:05:37.100 of operating without clearance, 107 00:05:37.100 --> 00:05:39.520 but Al Jazeera says they are accredited. 108 00:05:40.030 --> 00:05:43.500 In Bangladesh, a secular blogger has been hacked to death 109 00:05:43.500 --> 00:05:46.680 with machetes in the second such killing in just over a month. 110 00:05:46.680 --> 00:05:50.580 Two students have been arrested for killing Oyasiqur Rhaman 111 00:05:50.580 --> 00:05:52.840 over his criticism of Islam. 112 00:05:52.840 --> 00:05:56.140 Rhaman had expressed solidarity with Avijit Roy, 113 00:05:56.140 --> 00:05:58.530 another secular blogger killed last month, 114 00:05:58.530 --> 00:06:01.940 posting, "I am Avijit," on social media. 115 00:06:03.030 --> 00:06:05.410 In the Mexican state of Baja California, 116 00:06:05.410 --> 00:06:09.060 farmworkers who pick fruit and vegetables for consumers 117 00:06:09.060 --> 00:06:13.080 in the United States are continuing a historic, two-week strike. 118 00:06:13.080 --> 00:06:14.790 The farmworkers, who may earn in a day 119 00:06:14.790 --> 00:06:17.650 about what low-wage U.S. workers earn in an hour, 120 00:06:17.650 --> 00:06:21.050 have reportedly rejected the offer of a 15-percent raise. 121 00:06:21.050 --> 00:06:22.480 They are demanding a higher raise, 122 00:06:22.480 --> 00:06:25.570 benefits, and an end to harassment and other abuses. 123 00:06:25.570 --> 00:06:27.640 In Quebec, an 18-year-old student 124 00:06:27.640 --> 00:06:30.980 says she will press charges against a Quebec City police officer 125 00:06:30.980 --> 00:06:34.070 after she was hit in the face by a tear-gas canister. 126 00:06:34.070 --> 00:06:38.420 Naomi Trudeau-Tremblay was participating in protests against austerity cuts 127 00:06:38.420 --> 00:06:39.630 in the provincial budget 128 00:06:39.630 --> 00:06:42.010 when an officer fired the tear-gas canister 129 00:06:42.010 --> 00:06:44.330 into her face at point-blank range. 130 00:06:44.330 --> 00:06:48.800 She described what happened. 131 00:06:48.800 --> 00:06:50.430 Naomi Trudeau-Tremblay: "I was gasping for breath. 132 00:06:50.430 --> 00:06:53.890 I didn’t realize right away that I was swollen like this. 133 00:06:55.570 --> 00:06:59.320 I just put my hands like this. 134 00:06:59.320 --> 00:07:00.830 I was trying to catch my breath, 135 00:07:00.830 --> 00:07:09.010 and then I lost consciousness for about two minutes, not too long. 136 00:07:09.620 --> 00:07:13.310 When I got up, I touched my face and felt that it was burned." 137 00:07:15.140 --> 00:07:17.000 Police at the National Security Agency 138 00:07:17.000 --> 00:07:19.820 in Fort Meade, Maryland, shot and killed the driver of a car 139 00:07:19.820 --> 00:07:22.160 after he refused calls to stop. 140 00:07:22.160 --> 00:07:25.330 Authorities say two men dressed in women’s clothing 141 00:07:25.330 --> 00:07:27.740 drove a stolen car down a highway exit 142 00:07:27.740 --> 00:07:29.240 reserved for NSA employees. 143 00:07:29.240 --> 00:07:31.220 The NSA says the driver failed to stop and "accelerated toward an NSA police 144 00:07:31.220 --> 00:07:31.370 vehicle. " 145 00:07:31.370 --> 00:07:32.940 Police opened fire, killing the driver and injuring the passenger, 146 00:07:32.940 --> 00:07:34.590 identified as 20-year-old Kevin Fleming. An officer was also injured. 147 00:07:34.590 --> 00:07:35.950 Officials say they found cocaine and at least one gun in the vehicle. 148 00:07:35.950 --> 00:07:37.310 It is unclear if the men actually intended to enter the NSA. 149 00:07:37.310 --> 00:07:38.830 Connecticut has become the first state to officially boycott Indiana 150 00:07:38.830 --> 00:07:40.230 over a new "religious freedom" law that could allow discrimination 151 00:07:40.230 --> 00:07:41.460 by letting businesses refuse service to LGBT people. 152 00:07:41.460 --> 00:07:42.520 Washington State, San Francisco and Seattle 153 00:07:42.520 --> 00:07:44.060 have also imposed bans on state or city-funded travel to Indiana. 154 00:07:44.060 --> 00:07:45.770 Nine chief executive officers, including the heads of Angie’s List and Eli Lilly, 155 00:07:45.770 --> 00:07:47.230 wrote letters asking Indiana state officials to "take immediate action" 156 00:07:47.230 --> 00:07:48.670 to ensure the act will not sanction or encourage discrimination. 157 00:07:48.670 --> 00:07:49.990 Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, the world’s most profitable company, 158 00:07:49.990 --> 00:07:50.800 slammed Indiana’s law and others like it, 159 00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:51.880 likening it to the Jim Crow laws of the American South. 160 00:07:51.880 --> 00:07:52.850 We will have more on the story after headlines. 161 00:07:52.850 --> 00:07:55.570 The Germanwings co-pilot who crashed a plane in the French Alps, 162 00:07:55.570 --> 00:07:57.780 killing all 150 people on board, 163 00:07:57.780 --> 00:08:01.160 reportedly received treatment for "suicidal tendencies." 164 00:08:01.160 --> 00:08:03.550 A German prosecutor said Andreas Lubitz 165 00:08:03.550 --> 00:08:06.400 was in treatment for the problems “over a long period” 166 00:08:06.400 --> 00:08:08.780 before he received his pilot’s license. 167 00:08:08.780 --> 00:08:12.890 Officials are also looking into reports Lubitz suffered from vision problems, 168 00:08:12.890 --> 00:08:15.180 which may have been psychosomatic. 169 00:08:15.910 --> 00:08:19.820 In Pennsylvania, imprisoned journalist and former Black Panther Mumia Abu-Jamal 170 00:08:19.820 --> 00:08:22.950 has been taken to the intensive care unit of a local hospital 171 00:08:22.950 --> 00:08:25.880 after he was removed from prison for a medical emergency 172 00:08:25.880 --> 00:08:29.340 without notification to his family, friends or lawyers. 173 00:08:29.340 --> 00:08:32.050 Friends say they were told he was in "diabetic shock" 174 00:08:32.050 --> 00:08:33.100 but they have so far 175 00:08:33.100 --> 00:08:36.590 been unable to visit him or obtain any details. 176 00:08:36.590 --> 00:08:39.590 Noelle Hanrahan, producer of Prison Radio, 177 00:08:39.590 --> 00:08:42.610 which distributes Abu-Jamal’s commentaries from prison, 178 00:08:42.610 --> 00:08:44.780 spoke to Democracy Now! from the hospital. 179 00:08:45.470 --> 00:08:48.270 Noelle Hanrahan: "We are standing in the ICU waiting room. 180 00:08:48.270 --> 00:08:50.210 We are at the nurses desk. 181 00:08:50.210 --> 00:08:53.410 We can see his room, we cannot see him. 182 00:08:54.090 --> 00:08:56.950 I am looking at phalanx of police officers. 183 00:08:59.610 --> 00:09:01.500 The curtain is pulled across. 184 00:09:01.500 --> 00:09:04.680 He has tried to access the healthcare they have for him 185 00:09:04.680 --> 00:09:10.390 and it has been woefully indadequate and we are deeply concerned about this. 186 00:09:11.340 --> 00:09:13.380 They don’t take people to outside hospital. 187 00:09:13.380 --> 00:09:15.780 It is not standard procedure. 188 00:09:15.780 --> 00:09:21.430 You have to be extraordinarily sick to be moved, period." 189 00:09:24.000 --> 00:09:26.820 Abu-Jamal’s transfer came the same day 190 00:09:26.820 --> 00:09:31.750 as a court hearing on a Pennsylvania law he says tramples his free speech. 191 00:09:31.750 --> 00:09:36.380 The law was introduced after Abu-Jamal gave a pretaped commencement address 192 00:09:36.380 --> 00:09:37.630 at Vermont’s Goddard College. 193 00:09:37.630 --> 00:09:40.520 It authorizes the censoring of prisoners’ public addresses 194 00:09:40.520 --> 00:09:45.740 if a judge agree the speech would cause "mental anguish" to victims. 195 00:09:45.740 --> 00:09:49.660 In Indiana, Purvi Patel has been sentenced to 41 years in prison 196 00:09:49.660 --> 00:09:51.810 for what she says was a miscarriage. 197 00:09:53.460 --> 00:09:57.600 Patel was convicted of feticide and felony neglect last month 198 00:09:57.600 --> 00:10:01.990 after prosecutors accused her of taking drugs to induce an abortion, 199 00:10:01.990 --> 00:10:04.480 even though no drugs were found in her system. 200 00:10:04.480 --> 00:10:08.200 She said she miscarried and disposed of her dead fetus in a dumpster. 201 00:10:08.200 --> 00:10:11.280 But prosecutors, using scientifically contested evidence, 202 00:10:11.280 --> 00:10:13.310 claim the baby was born alive. 203 00:10:13.310 --> 00:10:16.940 A judge sentenced her to 30 years for neglect and six for feticide, 204 00:10:16.940 --> 00:10:18.600 plus five years probation. 205 00:10:18.600 --> 00:10:21.740 The sentences will be served concurrently, with 10 years suspended, 206 00:10:22.620 --> 00:10:24.960 making her effective sentence 20 years. 207 00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:27.350 The two charges appear mutually exclusive; 208 00:10:27.350 --> 00:10:30.500 feticide applies when a fetus dies in the womb, 209 00:10:30.500 --> 00:10:33.250 while felony neglect applies to live children, 210 00:10:33.250 --> 00:10:35.180 but Patel was convicted of both. 211 00:10:35.180 --> 00:10:38.980 Critics say her case showcases the increasing criminalization 212 00:10:38.980 --> 00:10:40.600 of pregnancy. 213 00:10:40.600 --> 00:10:42.830 In Arizona, Gov. Doug Ducey 214 00:10:42.830 --> 00:10:45.920 has signed the first-ever law requiring doctors to tell patients 215 00:10:45.920 --> 00:10:48.640 they can reverse the effects of a drug-induced abortion, 216 00:10:48.640 --> 00:10:50.810 despite a lack of any scientific evidence 217 00:10:50.810 --> 00:10:52.730 such a step is actually possible. 218 00:10:52.730 --> 00:10:56.160 The law also prevents women from buying insurance policies 219 00:10:56.160 --> 00:11:00.600 that cover abortion through the federal marketplace. 220 00:11:01.140 --> 00:11:04.410 Comedy Central has announced a successor to Jon Stewart, 221 00:11:04.410 --> 00:11:07.890 who is stepping down this year as host of "The Daily Show." 222 00:11:07.890 --> 00:11:11.970 Trevor Noah, a 31-year-old comedian from South Africa, will be the new host. 223 00:11:11.970 --> 00:11:14.830 He debuted on the show last year with the line, "I never thought I’d be 224 00:11:14.830 --> 00:11:18.740 more afraid of police in America than in South Africa." 225 00:11:18.740 --> 00:11:20.010 And those are some of the headlines 226 00:11:20.010 --> 00:11:23.570 this is Democracy Now, Democracynow.org, the War and Peace Report. 227 00:11:23.570 --> 00:11:24.820 I’m Amy Goodman. 228 00:11:26.310 --> 00:11:30.440 AARON MATÉ: We begin today’s show in Lausanne, Switzerland, 229 00:11:30.440 --> 00:11:33.630 where six days of historic talks over an Iran nuclear deal 230 00:11:33.630 --> 00:11:35.120 have reportedly closed. 231 00:11:35.120 --> 00:11:38.700 The Associated Press says negotiators will issue a general statement 232 00:11:38.700 --> 00:11:40.600 that enough progress has been made 233 00:11:40.600 --> 00:11:44.750 to continue in a new phase aimed at a comprehensive agreement in June. 234 00:11:44.750 --> 00:11:48.470 Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said U.N. sanctions against Iran 235 00:11:48.470 --> 00:11:50.790 should be lifted if a nuclear deal is reached. 236 00:11:54.260 --> 00:11:56.050 MINISTER SERGEI LAVROV: I think sanctions should be suspended 237 00:11:56.050 --> 00:11:57.560 after the agreements are reached. 238 00:11:57.560 --> 00:11:58.620 They should be lifted. 239 00:11:58.620 --> 00:11:59.880 There are different ways; 240 00:11:59.880 --> 00:12:03.230 to lift them completely or first suspend them temporarily 241 00:12:03.230 --> 00:12:05.200 and lift them legally afterwards. 242 00:12:05.200 --> 00:12:08.440 But, in practice, it should mean that sanctions should be lifted, 243 00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:11.880 and should not interfere with legal trade and economic activity 244 00:12:11.880 --> 00:12:14.360 between Iran and its foreign partners. 245 00:12:14.360 --> 00:12:17.210 AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile, Congress has vowed to impose additional sanctions 246 00:12:17.210 --> 00:12:19.940 if negotiators fail to reach a preliminary deal. 247 00:12:19.940 --> 00:12:21.840 Well, for more we go to Lausanne, Switzerland, 248 00:12:21.840 --> 00:12:23.280 where we are joined by Trita Parsi, 249 00:12:23.280 --> 00:12:26.460 Founder and President of the National Iranian American Council. 250 00:12:26.460 --> 00:12:29.140 He has been following the negotiations closely there. 251 00:12:29.140 --> 00:12:31.250 His book is a "A Single Roll of the Dice: 252 00:12:31.250 --> 00:12:32.880 Obama’s Diplomacy with Iran." 253 00:12:32.880 --> 00:12:34.770 Welcome back to Democracy Now! 254 00:12:34.770 --> 00:12:36.490 Can you talk about the agreement 255 00:12:36.490 --> 00:12:38.960 that has been worked out, Trita, just now? 256 00:12:40.890 --> 00:12:42.270 TRITA PARSI: Frankly, no one can, 257 00:12:42.270 --> 00:12:44.140 because the details have not been released. 258 00:12:44.140 --> 00:12:48.530 All we know is that AP reports that there’s going to be a statement 259 00:12:48.530 --> 00:12:49.790 about an understanding, 260 00:12:49.790 --> 00:12:50.850 and the reason for that is 261 00:12:50.850 --> 00:12:54.740 that the Iranians refuse to agree to two-phase agreement 262 00:12:54.740 --> 00:12:58.100 because of bad experience with doing that in 2009. 263 00:12:58.100 --> 00:13:01.890 But, if it, in reality is, a political framework, 264 00:13:01.890 --> 00:13:03.850 or just a mere understanding, 265 00:13:03.850 --> 00:13:06.030 will be revealed once we have the details 266 00:13:06.030 --> 00:13:08.050 which is scheduled to be released today. 267 00:13:08.860 --> 00:13:11.450 AARON MATÉ: Trita, what was Iran’s bad experience, 268 00:13:11.450 --> 00:13:14.450 that you mentioned, and what are you looking for to happen next? 269 00:13:16.460 --> 00:13:19.250 TRITA PARSI: Well, in 2009, on October 1, 270 00:13:19.250 --> 00:13:21.010 in Geneva, for the first time, 271 00:13:21.010 --> 00:13:24.270 the Iranians and the Americans sat down during the first year 272 00:13:24.270 --> 00:13:26.160 of President Obama’s term, 273 00:13:26.160 --> 00:13:29.840 and they discussed the principles of a swap deal. 274 00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:33.280 The Iranians agreed, in principle, to a swap deal 275 00:13:33.280 --> 00:13:36.430 and then later on, around October 20, 276 00:13:36.430 --> 00:13:38.580 they had a conversation about the details. 277 00:13:38.580 --> 00:13:40.240 At that stage, 278 00:13:40.240 --> 00:13:44.370 it turned out that the two sides actually had irreconcilable differences 279 00:13:44.370 --> 00:13:45.710 when it comes to the details. 280 00:13:45.710 --> 00:13:49.960 The narrative that came out of that then was that the Iranians had first agreed, 281 00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:51.620 and then backtracked. 282 00:13:51.620 --> 00:13:54.650 And it was very easy for the West to put the blame on the Iranians, 283 00:13:54.650 --> 00:13:57.520 which then later on became a critical component 284 00:13:57.520 --> 00:13:59.900 towards imposing new sanctions on Iran. 285 00:13:59.900 --> 00:14:02.530 That’s exactly what the Iranians are trying to avoid here. 286 00:14:02.530 --> 00:14:05.920 They do not want to agree to anything that is unclear at this point, 287 00:14:05.920 --> 00:14:09.610 and then later on when additional negotiations are taking place, 288 00:14:09.610 --> 00:14:11.160 find out that there is a disagreement, 289 00:14:11.160 --> 00:14:12.970 and then, then they get the blame for it. 290 00:14:14.060 --> 00:14:17.360 AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the significance of putting this off? 291 00:14:17.360 --> 00:14:21.320 I mean, what does it mean to say it’s a self-imposed deadline, 292 00:14:21.320 --> 00:14:24.120 and what you see as the major sticking point? 293 00:14:25.980 --> 00:14:27.820 TRITA PARSI: Well, I think it is important to keep in mind 294 00:14:27.820 --> 00:14:30.400 that this deadline of March 31, in reality 295 00:14:30.400 --> 00:14:32.140 is primarily an American deadline, 296 00:14:32.140 --> 00:14:33.560 because of the pressure 297 00:14:33.560 --> 00:14:37.430 that Congress has been putting on the president of the United States. 298 00:14:37.430 --> 00:14:41.110 The other actors, primarily look at June 30 as the real deadline, 299 00:14:41.110 --> 00:14:43.380 mindful of the fact that the interim agreement 300 00:14:43.380 --> 00:14:45.130 is valid for another three months. 301 00:14:45.130 --> 00:14:46.890 They could have walked away with nothing, 302 00:14:46.890 --> 00:14:49.910 and the interim agreement would still be in place. 303 00:14:49.910 --> 00:14:52.660 So, what that means then is that the way 304 00:14:52.660 --> 00:14:56.830 that Congress has been putting pressure on the U.S. team 305 00:14:56.830 --> 00:15:00.120 has not worked in such a way that the Iranians are pressured. 306 00:15:00.120 --> 00:15:02.160 Rather, the pressure is truly on the American side, 307 00:15:02.160 --> 00:15:04.930 and is adding time pressure on the Americans in a way 308 00:15:04.930 --> 00:15:06.530 that the others are not feeling. 309 00:15:06.530 --> 00:15:07.540 But, nevertheless, 310 00:15:07.540 --> 00:15:10.360 it seems they are going to be able to walk away with something 311 00:15:10.360 --> 00:15:12.900 that would enable the U.S. team 312 00:15:12.900 --> 00:15:15.420 to come back and resist the pressures from Congress. 313 00:15:15.420 --> 00:15:18.800 The next step then would be to continue the negotiations 314 00:15:18.800 --> 00:15:20.410 and work out a real framework, 315 00:15:20.410 --> 00:15:23.530 a real final deal with a deadline of June 30. 316 00:15:24.240 --> 00:15:25.910 AARON MATÉ: You mentioned the obstacles — 317 00:15:25.910 --> 00:15:28.100 or the potential obstacles from Congress. 318 00:15:28.100 --> 00:15:30.030 There is a measure from Senator Bob Corker 319 00:15:30.030 --> 00:15:32.320 that’s going to come up next month 320 00:15:32.320 --> 00:15:35.610 that would give Congress the ability to kill the deal, basically. 321 00:15:35.610 --> 00:15:39.200 Do you see that as a significant factor here — can Congress 322 00:15:39.200 --> 00:15:41.360 stop whatever deal would be reached? 323 00:15:42.920 --> 00:15:44.600 TRITA PARSI: Yeah, on April 14, 324 00:15:44.600 --> 00:15:46.930 it is scheduled to be marked up in the Senate. 325 00:15:46.930 --> 00:15:50.400 This is what is called an oversight bill, 326 00:15:50.400 --> 00:15:54.970 but in reality it contains measures that is more of an interference 327 00:15:54.970 --> 00:15:58.000 in the negotiations than mere oversight. 328 00:15:58.000 --> 00:15:59.740 For instance, the president 329 00:15:59.740 --> 00:16:04.480 does not have his suspension rights for sanctions for the first 60 days 330 00:16:04.480 --> 00:16:06.780 after a deal is struck in order for the Senate 331 00:16:06.780 --> 00:16:08.380 to review the deal. 332 00:16:08.380 --> 00:16:10.290 That is actually a direct interference 333 00:16:10.290 --> 00:16:13.740 because what the two sides are negotiating about right now 334 00:16:13.740 --> 00:16:16.930 is precisely the schedule of sanctions relief. 335 00:16:16.930 --> 00:16:18.770 And if they come to a conclusion on that, 336 00:16:18.770 --> 00:16:20.850 and then the Senate says, no, hold on, 337 00:16:20.850 --> 00:16:24.270 we are withdrawing your suspension rights for 60 days, 338 00:16:24.270 --> 00:16:27.970 that is direct interference can cause the blame of the collapse of talks 339 00:16:27.970 --> 00:16:29.310 to fall on the U.S. side. 340 00:16:29.310 --> 00:16:31.980 AMY GOODMAN: What has surprised you the most, Trita Parsi? 341 00:16:31.980 --> 00:16:37.140 You are a very close follower of relations between U.S. and Iran, 342 00:16:37.140 --> 00:16:39.510 and of course, other countries are involved with this as well; 343 00:16:39.510 --> 00:16:41.760 Russia, the foreign minister is just returning. 344 00:16:44.640 --> 00:16:47.080 TRITA PARSI: Well, I think there is something absolutely unique 345 00:16:47.080 --> 00:16:48.600 and historic going on here. 346 00:16:48.600 --> 00:16:54.260 The P5+1 have their own severe disagreements and actually conflicts, 347 00:16:54.260 --> 00:16:57.000 particularly between the U.S. and Russia right now, 348 00:16:57.000 --> 00:16:58.190 and the EU and Russia. 349 00:16:58.190 --> 00:17:04.860 Yet, on this issue, they have managed to keep a tremendous professional unity 350 00:17:04.860 --> 00:17:08.220 towards getting some form of an agreement on the nuclear issue. 351 00:17:08.220 --> 00:17:11.770 And it shows the importance of finding this agreement 352 00:17:11.770 --> 00:17:15.300 because this truly is a matter of war and peace. 353 00:17:15.300 --> 00:17:19.340 And that, I think, casts the opponents in the Senate, 354 00:17:19.340 --> 00:17:20.770 or in Israel, or elsewhere, 355 00:17:20.770 --> 00:17:22.600 as even more isolated because, 356 00:17:22.600 --> 00:17:26.710 frankly, the entire P5+1 is united towards trying to get the same deal 357 00:17:26.710 --> 00:17:29.170 that the president of the United States is pursuing. 358 00:17:29.170 --> 00:17:31.470 AMY GOODMAN: Trita Parsi, right now, 359 00:17:31.470 --> 00:17:34.530 the Speaker of the House of Representatives, John Boehner, 360 00:17:34.530 --> 00:17:38.760 has taken a delegation to meet with Netanyahu in Israel. 361 00:17:38.760 --> 00:17:40.910 In Lausanne, Josh Block, 362 00:17:40.910 --> 00:17:45.450 who is a former American Israel Public Affairs 363 00:17:45.450 --> 00:17:48.780 Committee AIPAC spokesperson, is — 364 00:17:48.780 --> 00:17:50.500 has the Israel Project. 365 00:17:50.500 --> 00:17:53.860 What pressure has Israel brought to bear here? 366 00:17:53.860 --> 00:17:57.580 Do you think Netanyahu is succeeding in scuttling the talks? 367 00:17:59.620 --> 00:18:01.260 TRITA PARSI: The Israelis have put on an enormous amount 368 00:18:01.260 --> 00:18:04.620 of pressure from the very first minute that President Obama came into office 369 00:18:04.620 --> 00:18:07.040 and declared that he wanted to pursue diplomacy, 370 00:18:07.040 --> 00:18:10.620 but I would, frankly, say that the Israelis have less influence 371 00:18:10.620 --> 00:18:14.450 right now than they could have had had they played their cards differently. 372 00:18:14.450 --> 00:18:19.570 The very, very aggressive tone of Prime Minister Netanyahu, 373 00:18:19.570 --> 00:18:22.750 this very clear cut attempt to try to sabotage the talks, 374 00:18:22.750 --> 00:18:26.340 has actually pushed Netanyahu further to the margins, 375 00:18:26.340 --> 00:18:30.430 and has given him less opportunities to be able to sabotage it. 376 00:18:30.430 --> 00:18:33.560 But, make no mistake, the Israelis are very much against the steel 377 00:18:33.560 --> 00:18:35.720 and are trying to do everything they can do to stop it, 378 00:18:35.720 --> 00:18:38.950 but there is an air of inevitability, right here in Lausanne, 379 00:18:38.950 --> 00:18:41.390 that something is going to come out of these talks. 380 00:18:41.390 --> 00:18:43.440 AMY GOODMAN: Trita Parsi, we want to thank you for being with us; 381 00:18:43.440 --> 00:18:45.950 Founder and President of the National Iranian American Council. 382 00:18:45.950 --> 00:18:47.610 His book is a "A Single Roll of the Dice: 383 00:18:47.610 --> 00:18:49.080 Obama’s Diplomacy with Iran." 384 00:18:49.080 --> 00:18:51.280 He’s speaking to us from Lausanne, 385 00:18:51.280 --> 00:18:55.700 Switzerland, where the Iran negotiations are taking place. 386 00:18:55.700 --> 00:18:56.890 When we come back, 387 00:18:56.890 --> 00:19:00.470 we go to Florida where we will be joined by former Senator George Mitchell, 388 00:19:00.470 --> 00:19:02.240 who is the former envoy 389 00:19:02.240 --> 00:19:04.360 under President Obama to the Middle East. 390 00:19:04.360 --> 00:19:06.710 We will talk about Iran and Israel. 391 00:19:06.710 --> 00:20:19.070 Stay with us. 392 00:20:22.810 --> 00:20:25.210 AARON MATÉ: As historic talks over an Iran nuclear deal 393 00:20:25.210 --> 00:20:28.180 have reportedly closed ahead of the U.S. imposed deadline, 394 00:20:28.180 --> 00:20:31.000 the Israeli government continues to oppose a deal. 395 00:20:31.000 --> 00:20:35.240 Last week, it emerged that Israelis intelligence spied on the Iran talks, 396 00:20:35.240 --> 00:20:37.920 and then fed the information to congressional Republicans. 397 00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.310 Now, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says the deal’s proposed terms 398 00:20:42.310 --> 00:20:43.850 are even worse than he thought. 399 00:20:43.850 --> 00:20:46.990 Speaking on Sunday, Netanyahu appeared to invoke the "axis 400 00:20:46.990 --> 00:20:50.110 of evil" moniker used by president George W. Bush 401 00:20:50.110 --> 00:20:52.010 for Iran, Iraq and North Korea. 402 00:20:52.010 --> 00:20:55.730 But, Netanyahu But, Netanyahu offered a new variation on the axis members. 403 00:20:55.730 --> 00:21:01.580 PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU: [translated] I expressed out deep concern 404 00:21:01.580 --> 00:21:05.270 towards this deal emerging with Iran nuclear talks. 405 00:21:05.270 --> 00:21:07.680 This deal, as it appears to be merging, 406 00:21:07.680 --> 00:21:09.740 bears out all of our fears, 407 00:21:09.740 --> 00:21:11.160 and even more than that. 408 00:21:12.110 --> 00:21:17.660 The Iran-Lausanne-Yemen axis is very dangerous to humanity, 409 00:21:17.660 --> 00:21:19.230 and this must be stopped. 410 00:21:19.800 --> 00:21:21.270 AARON MATÉ: The Lausanne, in that axis, 411 00:21:21.270 --> 00:21:24.740 refers to the Swiss town where the nuclear talks are taking place. 412 00:21:24.740 --> 00:21:27.190 That apparently puts the U.S. inside of the axis 413 00:21:27.190 --> 00:21:28.660 that Netanyahu opposes, 414 00:21:28.660 --> 00:21:31.580 along with the five other world powers negotiating with Iran. 415 00:21:31.580 --> 00:21:35.520 AMY GOODMAN: Netanyahu’s comment was the latest in an escalating standoff 416 00:21:35.520 --> 00:21:37.660 with the White House over Mideast policy. 417 00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:39.400 President Obama and other top officials 418 00:21:39.400 --> 00:21:42.860 have vowed to re-evaluate their approach to the Israel-Palestine conflict 419 00:21:42.860 --> 00:21:46.230 following Netanyahu’s open rejection of a two-state solution. 420 00:21:46.230 --> 00:21:49.050 U.S. officials have suggested they might take steps 421 00:21:49.050 --> 00:21:52.980 including no longer vetoing U.N. Security Council resolutions 422 00:21:52.980 --> 00:21:54.040 critical of Israel. 423 00:21:54.040 --> 00:21:57.000 Some predict a major shift in U.S. policy. 424 00:21:57.000 --> 00:21:59.180 A headline in The Washington Post describes it as, 425 00:21:59.180 --> 00:22:01.110 "Obama’s Next Earthquake." 426 00:22:01.110 --> 00:22:02.130 And the first test 427 00:22:02.130 --> 00:22:04.780 of the new U.S. approach might come in the next few weeks. 428 00:22:04.780 --> 00:22:07.830 France will put forward a U.N. Security Council measure 429 00:22:07.830 --> 00:22:10.690 aimed at encouraging peace talks between Israel 430 00:22:10.690 --> 00:22:12.220 and the Palestinian Authority. 431 00:22:12.220 --> 00:22:14.980 The measure would include parameters for negotiations, 432 00:22:14.980 --> 00:22:16.140 presumably based 433 00:22:16.140 --> 00:22:18.700 on an Israeli withdrawal from the Occupied Territories 434 00:22:18.700 --> 00:22:21.890 and the establishment of a Palestinian state there. 435 00:22:21.890 --> 00:22:24.260 For more we go to a guest 436 00:22:24.260 --> 00:22:27.930 who has been deeply involved in U.S. efforts to seek a peace deal 437 00:22:27.930 --> 00:22:29.620 between Israel and Palestine. 438 00:22:29.620 --> 00:22:33.900 Senator George Mitchell served as U.S. Special Envoy for Middle East Peace 439 00:22:33.900 --> 00:22:37.760 under President Obama from 2009 to 2011. 440 00:22:37.760 --> 00:22:40.320 He previously served under President Bill Clinton, 441 00:22:40.320 --> 00:22:42.140 as the Special Envoy for Northern Ireland, 442 00:22:42.140 --> 00:22:45.520 where he helped broker the Belfast Peace Agreement of 1998. 443 00:22:45.520 --> 00:22:46.940 Before that, Senator Mitchell 444 00:22:46.940 --> 00:22:49.460 served as Democratic Senator from Maine for 15 years, 445 00:22:49.460 --> 00:22:53.730 including as Senate Majority Leader from 1989 to 1995. 446 00:22:53.730 --> 00:22:55.220 Welcome to Democracy Now! 447 00:22:56.210 --> 00:22:59.610 Let us start on this issue of proposed measures 448 00:22:59.610 --> 00:23:04.810 President Obama and the administration is considering possibly against Israel, 449 00:23:04.810 --> 00:23:09.200 particularly what might happen in the United Nations. 450 00:23:10.460 --> 00:23:12.590 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, I don’t think it is possible to know. 451 00:23:12.590 --> 00:23:14.790 I doubt very much that any decision 452 00:23:14.790 --> 00:23:17.710 finally has been made within the White House. 453 00:23:17.710 --> 00:23:20.810 I think it’s all under review, as the president has said. 454 00:23:20.810 --> 00:23:22.750 It will depend, obviously, in part 455 00:23:22.750 --> 00:23:25.460 on the circumstances that exist at the time 456 00:23:25.460 --> 00:23:29.030 any such resolution is introduced in the United Nations, 457 00:23:29.030 --> 00:23:31.680 what the language of the resolution is, 458 00:23:31.680 --> 00:23:33.340 what the reaction 459 00:23:33.340 --> 00:23:36.640 both within the United States and among our allies. 460 00:23:36.640 --> 00:23:43.080 I do think think that the president is appropriately reviewing our policies 461 00:23:43.080 --> 00:23:46.560 given the developments of the past few weeks, 462 00:23:46.560 --> 00:23:50.160 particularly the various statements of Prime Minister Netanyahu. 463 00:23:50.160 --> 00:23:54.980 But, I don’t think anyone should draw any final conclusion 464 00:23:54.980 --> 00:23:57.510 from the discussions that are now underway, 465 00:23:57.510 --> 00:24:02.500 particularly since we do not yet know what is going to happen with the talks 466 00:24:02.500 --> 00:24:05.010 with Iran, which is obviously major factor. 467 00:24:05.870 --> 00:24:08.650 AARON MATÉ: Senator Mitchell, can we agree that this would be a major shift 468 00:24:08.650 --> 00:24:13.950 if the U.S. starts supporting or not blocking critical measures at the U.N.? 469 00:24:13.950 --> 00:24:17.300 I want to go first to a clip from U.N. Ambassador Samantha Power. 470 00:24:17.300 --> 00:24:19.840 Speaking about a year ago, she said the U.S. will continue 471 00:24:19.840 --> 00:24:22.720 to block Palestinian efforts in forums like the U.N. 472 00:24:23.490 --> 00:24:25.740 AMBASSADOR SAMANTHA POWER: There are no shortcuts to statehood, 473 00:24:25.740 --> 00:24:27.050 and we have made that clear. 474 00:24:27.930 --> 00:24:30.790 Efforts that attempt to circumvent the peace process, 475 00:24:30.790 --> 00:24:33.070 the hard slog of the peace process, 476 00:24:33.070 --> 00:24:36.300 are only counterproductive to the peace process itself 477 00:24:36.300 --> 00:24:40.710 and to the ultimate objective of securing statehood, 478 00:24:40.710 --> 00:24:44.630 the objective that the Palestinian Authority, of course, has. 479 00:24:44.630 --> 00:24:51.280 So, we have contested every effort, even prior to the restart 480 00:24:51.280 --> 00:24:54.300 of negotiations spearheaded by Secretary Kerry. 481 00:24:54.300 --> 00:24:56.550 Every time the Palestinians have sought to make a move 482 00:24:56.550 --> 00:24:58.470 on a U.N. agency, a treaty, etc., 483 00:24:58.470 --> 00:25:00.040 we have opposed it. 484 00:25:00.040 --> 00:25:04.330 AARON MATÉ: Power went on to say that trying to deter Palestinian action 485 00:25:04.330 --> 00:25:07.500 is what we do all the time and what we will continue to do. 486 00:25:07.500 --> 00:25:08.880 Now, that was a year ago. 487 00:25:08.880 --> 00:25:10.640 Now things are different, Senator Mitchell. 488 00:25:10.640 --> 00:25:15.420 Can you talk about why the U.S. was previously blocking resolutions 489 00:25:15.420 --> 00:25:17.960 such as simply criticizing the expansion 490 00:25:17.960 --> 00:25:20.150 of Israeli settlements in the occupied territories? 491 00:25:20.830 --> 00:25:22.820 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: It has been, for many decades, 492 00:25:22.820 --> 00:25:25.480 under presidents of both parties, 493 00:25:25.480 --> 00:25:28.810 U.S. policy that the differences 494 00:25:28.810 --> 00:25:31.680 between the Israelis and Palestinians should be resolved 495 00:25:31.680 --> 00:25:34.670 in the direct negotiations between the parties 496 00:25:34.670 --> 00:25:39.570 with the support and assistance of the U.S. and other allies. 497 00:25:39.570 --> 00:25:43.080 And as a necessary corollary to that, 498 00:25:43.080 --> 00:25:46.520 U.S. policy has been that the issues 499 00:25:46.520 --> 00:25:50.430 should not be resolved outside of direct negotiations. 500 00:25:50.430 --> 00:25:55.910 And so, unilateral action by either side to bring about a change 501 00:25:55.910 --> 00:25:59.730 that would alter the circumstances on the ground, 502 00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:02.260 or that would resolve an issue 503 00:26:02.260 --> 00:26:06.960 unilaterally that should be resolved in negotiations were to be resisted. 504 00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:10.570 That is why the United States has consistently, 505 00:26:10.570 --> 00:26:16.680 publicly opposed Israel’s policies and actions regarding settlements, 506 00:26:16.680 --> 00:26:20.440 even as it has opposed, publicly, 507 00:26:20.440 --> 00:26:24.030 Palestinian efforts to resolve other issues 508 00:26:24.030 --> 00:26:26.810 outside of direct negotiations. 509 00:26:26.810 --> 00:26:29.850 So, American policy has been clearly consistent. 510 00:26:29.850 --> 00:26:31.710 What is different now, of course, 511 00:26:31.710 --> 00:26:38.280 is that is all premised on the basis that there will be a direct negotiation 512 00:26:38.280 --> 00:26:44.030 between Israelis and Palestinians to achieve the goals that each seeks; 513 00:26:44.030 --> 00:26:46.990 security for Israel and its people, 514 00:26:46.990 --> 00:26:50.190 and a state for the Palestinian people. 515 00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:53.450 The reason that circumstances have changed now, 516 00:26:53.450 --> 00:26:55.250 is that Prime Minister Netanyahu, 517 00:26:55.250 --> 00:26:57.290 on the day before his election, 518 00:26:57.290 --> 00:27:00.370 said that there would not be a Palestinian state 519 00:27:00.370 --> 00:27:01.950 while he was Prime Minister. 520 00:27:01.950 --> 00:27:06.820 That, effectively, undermined the principle of American policy, 521 00:27:06.820 --> 00:27:08.500 of what our objectives would be. 522 00:27:08.500 --> 00:27:11.670 The next day, he appeared to walk back from that, 523 00:27:11.670 --> 00:27:15.500 and so there is now some question about policy in that regard, 524 00:27:15.500 --> 00:27:18.640 and I think that is what has led to the review 525 00:27:18.640 --> 00:27:20.520 that you described earlier. 526 00:27:20.520 --> 00:27:22.080 AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to William Quandt, 527 00:27:22.080 --> 00:27:24.010 who served on the National Security Council 528 00:27:24.010 --> 00:27:25.650 under Presidents Carter and Nixon. 529 00:27:25.650 --> 00:27:30.320 At a recent event, he suggested the U.S. needs to impose a cost on Israel 530 00:27:30.320 --> 00:27:32.090 for maintaining the occupation. 531 00:27:33.270 --> 00:27:34.590 WILLIAM QUANDT: What doesn’t work 532 00:27:34.590 --> 00:27:37.740 is just saying you know what needs to be done, but, 533 00:27:37.740 --> 00:27:39.940 there are no consequences if you don’t do it, 534 00:27:39.940 --> 00:27:41.860 and that is what we have done in the past. 535 00:27:41.860 --> 00:27:44.140 We used language that, 536 00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:47.430 if I were to try to translate it, I wouldn’t know what to say. 537 00:27:47.430 --> 00:27:51.280 We say, the illegitimacy of continued settlement activity, 538 00:27:51.280 --> 00:27:53.410 but, we don’t say that the settlements are illegal. 539 00:27:54.280 --> 00:27:56.070 AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s a William Quandt, 540 00:27:56.070 --> 00:27:59.620 a former National Security Council official, 541 00:27:59.620 --> 00:28:02.860 saying the status quo simply doesn’t work. 542 00:28:02.860 --> 00:28:05.140 Your response to this, Senator George Mitchell, 543 00:28:05.820 --> 00:28:10.090 and also, if you could respond to the other controversy statement, 544 00:28:10.090 --> 00:28:14.030 to say the least, of what Netanyahu said on the day of the elections, 545 00:28:14.030 --> 00:28:18.660 concerned about the Arab of vote that was turning out. 546 00:28:20.320 --> 00:28:24.410 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, he has apologized for that, and so, 547 00:28:24.410 --> 00:28:29.370 I think that is a separate issue from the first one that you described. 548 00:28:30.070 --> 00:28:31.670 The fact is, of course, 549 00:28:31.670 --> 00:28:36.110 that both sides have, for a very long time, 550 00:28:36.110 --> 00:28:41.050 urged that the United States impose consequences on the other side. 551 00:28:41.610 --> 00:28:45.620 Both regard that as the way to resolve the issue. 552 00:28:45.620 --> 00:28:49.610 Palestinians and many Arabs repeatedly told me in meetings 553 00:28:49.610 --> 00:28:51.810 that the way to get this issue solved 554 00:28:51.810 --> 00:28:55.440 is for the United States to cut off all aid to Israel. 555 00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.210 They are dependant on you, they said, 556 00:28:57.210 --> 00:29:00.080 and if you cut off all aid, they will do what you want. 557 00:29:00.980 --> 00:29:02.610 The Israelis, on the other hand, 558 00:29:02.610 --> 00:29:07.650 make the exactly the same statement regarding aid to the Palestinians. 559 00:29:07.650 --> 00:29:10.070 They’re dependent on you, they told me, 560 00:29:10.070 --> 00:29:13.650 and if you will just cut off all aid to the Palestinians, 561 00:29:13.650 --> 00:29:15.300 they will do what you want. 562 00:29:15.300 --> 00:29:20.650 In my judgment, neither of those options is viable or would work. 563 00:29:21.160 --> 00:29:23.480 Israel is a democracy — 564 00:29:23.480 --> 00:29:25.180 a vibrant democracy. 565 00:29:25.180 --> 00:29:28.000 They are a proud and sovereign people. 566 00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:31.760 And taking punitive action, I think, 567 00:29:31.760 --> 00:29:33.490 would be first, inappropriate, 568 00:29:33.490 --> 00:29:36.430 because of our close relationship to them, 569 00:29:36.430 --> 00:29:38.670 and secondly, I think it would be counterproductive. 570 00:29:38.670 --> 00:29:41.960 I do not think it would produce the desired result. 571 00:29:41.960 --> 00:29:45.100 It would further isolate the relations — 572 00:29:45.100 --> 00:29:47.760 further separate the relations between the parties, 573 00:29:47.760 --> 00:29:50.750 and reduce American influence there, 574 00:29:50.750 --> 00:29:55.210 and I don’t think that is helpful in what we want is the objective 575 00:29:55.210 --> 00:29:58.860 of a peace agreement between Israel and Palestinians, 576 00:29:58.860 --> 00:30:01.130 and equally important, 577 00:30:01.130 --> 00:30:05.870 normalization of relations between Israel and its Arab neighbors, 578 00:30:05.870 --> 00:30:09.660 most of whom are also allies with the United States, 579 00:30:09.660 --> 00:30:11.640 and who, paradoxically, 580 00:30:11.640 --> 00:30:13.390 and somewhat ironically, 581 00:30:13.390 --> 00:30:17.360 are aligned with Israel on the issue of Iran 582 00:30:17.360 --> 00:30:18.720 and nuclear weapons. 583 00:30:18.720 --> 00:30:21.710 There is no stronger supporter of the position 584 00:30:21.710 --> 00:30:25.850 that Prime Minister Netanyahu is taking on the Iran nuclear deal 585 00:30:25.850 --> 00:30:27.890 than the government of Saudi Arabia, 586 00:30:27.890 --> 00:30:31.430 for example, which disagrees with Israel on other issues. 587 00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:33.890 So, it’s complicated, it’s difficult. 588 00:30:33.890 --> 00:30:38.190 There is a powerful temptation to resort to — well, 589 00:30:38.190 --> 00:30:40.210 if we just do this, they will do that, 590 00:30:40.210 --> 00:30:43.080 and if we take this action, they will take that action. 591 00:30:43.080 --> 00:30:44.430 I don’t think that is the case. 592 00:30:44.430 --> 00:30:47.980 I think, ultimately, there has to be there has to be a discussion 593 00:30:47.980 --> 00:30:51.150 between the parties with the strong support 594 00:30:52.590 --> 00:30:56.660 to achieve the mutually beneficial objectives. 595 00:30:56.660 --> 00:30:58.980 Israel has a state. 596 00:30:58.980 --> 00:31:00.820 They don’t have security. 597 00:31:00.820 --> 00:31:03.210 They want it, and they deserve it. 598 00:31:03.210 --> 00:31:05.760 The Palestinians don’t have a state. 599 00:31:05.760 --> 00:31:08.140 They want one, and they deserve one. 600 00:31:09.220 --> 00:31:13.650 Israel is not going to get security until the Palestinians get a state, 601 00:31:13.650 --> 00:31:16.060 and the Palestinians are not going to get a state 602 00:31:16.060 --> 00:31:17.490 until the people of Israel 603 00:31:17.490 --> 00:31:20.980 have a reasonable and sustainable degree of security. 604 00:31:20.980 --> 00:31:25.100 It is in their mutually beneficial interest to reach agreement, 605 00:31:25.100 --> 00:31:26.350 and I think over time, 606 00:31:26.350 --> 00:31:30.250 that is going to become clear to the public on both sides, 607 00:31:30.250 --> 00:31:32.340 as well as important 608 00:31:32.340 --> 00:31:34.590 not to leave out of the discussion 609 00:31:34.590 --> 00:31:36.010 of the following that, 610 00:31:36.010 --> 00:31:40.740 the normalization of relations between Israel and its neighbors, 611 00:31:40.740 --> 00:31:42.940 it’s Gulf Arab neighbors in the region, 612 00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:45.580 which would be beneficial to all concerned. 613 00:31:45.580 --> 00:31:48.030 AARON MATÉ: But, Senator, if we’re talking about taking punitive measures, 614 00:31:48.030 --> 00:31:50.310 can we agree that the two parties are not equal? 615 00:31:50.310 --> 00:31:51.820 They’re not occupying each other. 616 00:31:51.820 --> 00:31:56.410 It’s Israel that has been occupying the Palestinians for nearly 50 years. 617 00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.790 They have nuclear weapons, they are a huge power. 618 00:31:59.790 --> 00:32:01.600 Even during the so-called peace process, 619 00:32:01.600 --> 00:32:04.730 the settlements have expanded massively. 620 00:32:04.730 --> 00:32:07.260 So, Palestinians can say, well, 621 00:32:07.260 --> 00:32:11.070 look, the status quo of 50 years simply has not worked. 622 00:32:11.070 --> 00:32:15.400 Israel — the U.S., Israel’s largest supporter, 623 00:32:15.400 --> 00:32:17.810 has to change it’s policy decisively. 624 00:32:18.610 --> 00:32:20.210 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, it is true, 625 00:32:20.210 --> 00:32:22.100 that the parties are not equal, of course, 626 00:32:23.010 --> 00:32:27.800 and one reason for having outside participation in the process 627 00:32:27.800 --> 00:32:31.410 is to provide an independent interlocutor, 628 00:32:31.410 --> 00:32:34.880 someone who would assist the parties in reaching an agreement, 629 00:32:34.880 --> 00:32:37.890 and despite the criticism of the United States by many, 630 00:32:37.890 --> 00:32:39.170 there is, in fact, 631 00:32:39.170 --> 00:32:42.630 no other entity in the world that can perform that task 632 00:32:42.630 --> 00:32:44.250 other than the United States government. 633 00:32:45.130 --> 00:32:48.450 No other entity can create the circumstances, the conditions, 634 00:32:48.450 --> 00:32:51.850 the follow up that is necessary for these agreements. 635 00:32:51.850 --> 00:32:54.850 And so, we do have an important role to play. 636 00:32:54.850 --> 00:32:56.410 We can play it. 637 00:32:56.410 --> 00:33:00.530 We are, and will continue to be close friends, allies, 638 00:33:00.530 --> 00:33:03.040 and supporters of the people of Israel. 639 00:33:03.040 --> 00:33:07.580 That does not mean that we agree with the government of Israel on every issue, 640 00:33:07.580 --> 00:33:10.460 and surely, the disagreements between the U.S. 641 00:33:10.460 --> 00:33:14.100 and Israel in recent weeks have been very well documented 642 00:33:14.100 --> 00:33:16.530 and displayed for all of the world to see. 643 00:33:16.530 --> 00:33:20.580 At the same time, we support a Palestinian state. 644 00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:22.740 President George W. Bush 645 00:33:22.740 --> 00:33:27.670 set that out very persuasively and comprehensively in several speeches, 646 00:33:27.670 --> 00:33:31.990 including one he made in Jerusalem in January, 2009. 647 00:33:31.990 --> 00:33:38.230 So, I think that the United States can and must play a central role 648 00:33:38.230 --> 00:33:39.750 in bringing about an agreement, 649 00:33:39.750 --> 00:33:41.810 and most importantly seeing 650 00:33:41.810 --> 00:33:44.770 that an agreement is a adhered to over over time, 651 00:33:45.630 --> 00:33:48.120 and I think that is the role we are going to play. 652 00:33:48.120 --> 00:33:50.940 I think they will come around to it on both sides. 653 00:33:50.940 --> 00:33:55.970 I don’t think that we should say it is somehow our role 654 00:33:55.970 --> 00:33:58.500 to take punitive action against Israel 655 00:33:58.500 --> 00:34:02.950 so as to try to equal the status between them and the Palestinians. 656 00:34:02.950 --> 00:34:04.120 That would not work, 657 00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:06.640 and I do not think it would achieve the desired objective. 658 00:34:06.640 --> 00:34:09.540 AMY GOODMAN: Ahead of a trip to Israel this week, House Speaker John Boehner 659 00:34:09.540 --> 00:34:13.410 called President Obama’s recent criticism of Netanyahu reprehensible. 660 00:34:13.410 --> 00:34:15.630 Speaking to CNN, the house speaker 661 00:34:15.630 --> 00:34:18.540 also suggested it’s the fault of the Obama administration 662 00:34:18.540 --> 00:34:21.830 that Netanyahu has rejected Palestinian statehood. 663 00:34:22.460 --> 00:34:24.240 SPEAKER JOHN BOEHNER: I think the animosity 664 00:34:24.240 --> 00:34:26.220 exhibited by our administration 665 00:34:26.740 --> 00:34:30.000 toward the prime minister of Israel is reprehensible. 666 00:34:30.510 --> 00:34:32.820 And I think that the pressure 667 00:34:32.820 --> 00:34:36.290 that they have put on him over the last four or five years 668 00:34:36.920 --> 00:34:41.040 has, frankly, pushed him to the point where he had to speak up. 669 00:34:41.650 --> 00:34:43.680 I don’t blame him at all for speaking up. 670 00:34:44.850 --> 00:34:48.980 AMY GOODMAN: I would like you to respond to the house speaker, 671 00:34:48.980 --> 00:34:52.130 the Republican leadership siding 672 00:34:52.130 --> 00:34:55.070 with Netanyahu, a foreign Prime Minister, 673 00:34:55.070 --> 00:34:56.910 over President Obama. 674 00:34:59.210 --> 00:35:01.860 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, I don’t agree with Speaker Boehner 675 00:35:01.860 --> 00:35:04.380 on either of the points that he made. 676 00:35:04.380 --> 00:35:08.710 Of course, there is a long history, in the United States, 677 00:35:08.710 --> 00:35:10.720 which is an open, vibrant democracy, 678 00:35:10.720 --> 00:35:13.020 of people disagreeing with the president. 679 00:35:13.020 --> 00:35:15.950 That is what is essential to democracy, 680 00:35:15.950 --> 00:35:19.800 that the absence of support for government policies 681 00:35:19.800 --> 00:35:22.930 at any given time is not evidence of a lack of patriotism. 682 00:35:22.930 --> 00:35:26.200 It’s essential to our free system. 683 00:35:26.200 --> 00:35:31.470 On the particular issues that Speaker Boehner has just described, 684 00:35:31.470 --> 00:35:35.740 while I fully respect his right to express his view, 685 00:35:36.360 --> 00:35:41.270 I respectfully, but strongly disagree with the conclusions that he reached, 686 00:35:41.270 --> 00:35:44.450 that somehow it is President Obama’s fault 687 00:35:44.450 --> 00:35:49.900 that Prime Minister Netanyahu has made differing statements 688 00:35:50.640 --> 00:35:52.960 with respect to a Palestinian state. 689 00:35:54.340 --> 00:35:55.450 AARON MATÉ: And Senator, 690 00:35:55.450 --> 00:35:57.600 should peace talks ever resume, 691 00:35:57.600 --> 00:36:00.010 what do you see as the major sticking points 692 00:36:00.010 --> 00:36:02.030 that might prove to be an obstacle to talks, 693 00:36:02.030 --> 00:36:05.750 and do you have any ideas for what solutions could be introduced? 694 00:36:07.210 --> 00:36:09.730 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, all of the issues are sticking points. 695 00:36:09.730 --> 00:36:14.850 There are no easy issues in the Palestinian-Israeli dispute. 696 00:36:14.850 --> 00:36:16.190 They are all important. 697 00:36:16.190 --> 00:36:18.470 Where the borders would be. 698 00:36:18.470 --> 00:36:21.010 The distribution and rights with respect to water, 699 00:36:21.010 --> 00:36:24.230 which is a crucial issue in that region of the world, 700 00:36:24.230 --> 00:36:25.990 and, of course, in other parts of the world. 701 00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:32.310 The status of the right of return of the Palestinians. 702 00:36:32.910 --> 00:36:37.580 The issue of Jerusalem — whether it should be the capital of both countries, 703 00:36:37.580 --> 00:36:39.100 or not. 704 00:36:39.900 --> 00:36:44.750 So, you have a whole range of very, very difficult issues, 705 00:36:45.940 --> 00:36:49.680 but in my judgment, all of which can be resolved, 706 00:36:49.680 --> 00:36:54.510 if there is a basis of trust between the two parties. 707 00:36:54.510 --> 00:36:56.810 This discussion has been long and complicated, 708 00:36:56.810 --> 00:36:58.130 but it hasn’t mentioned what, 709 00:36:58.130 --> 00:37:00.980 in my judgment, is the single most important issue, 710 00:37:00.980 --> 00:37:07.230 and it is the high level of mistrust between both societies and both leaders. 711 00:37:07.230 --> 00:37:09.440 Having had long experience in the region, 712 00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:13.310 having met many, many times with Prime Minister Netanyahu 713 00:37:13.310 --> 00:37:14.910 and his predecessors, 714 00:37:14.910 --> 00:37:18.300 and President Abbas and his predecessor, 715 00:37:18.300 --> 00:37:21.310 I think that is the single most difficult issue. 716 00:37:21.310 --> 00:37:24.430 Prime Minister Netanyahu, in my opinion, 717 00:37:24.430 --> 00:37:31.310 does not believe that President Abbas has either the will or the capacity, 718 00:37:31.310 --> 00:37:33.490 personal or political strength, 719 00:37:33.490 --> 00:37:39.000 to reach agreement, and push one through to approval and implementation. 720 00:37:40.230 --> 00:37:42.280 President Abbass, on the other hand, 721 00:37:42.280 --> 00:37:44.990 does not believe that Prime Minister Netanyahu 722 00:37:44.990 --> 00:37:48.440 is serious about getting an agreement. 723 00:37:48.440 --> 00:37:53.970 When Prime Minister Netanyahu announced in June of 2009 724 00:37:53.970 --> 00:37:56.590 that he favored a two-state solution, 725 00:37:57.110 --> 00:38:01.390 no Palestinians believed that he was telling the truth, 726 00:38:01.390 --> 00:38:03.150 and neither did any of the Arabs. 727 00:38:03.150 --> 00:38:07.140 They thought he was saying that just to accommodate the pressure 728 00:38:07.140 --> 00:38:08.850 from the United States. 729 00:38:08.850 --> 00:38:11.680 As Speaker Boehner has suggested, 730 00:38:11.680 --> 00:38:14.820 this is really the reverse side of that argument. 731 00:38:15.510 --> 00:38:20.040 So, when Prime Minister Netanyahu, on the day before the recent election, 732 00:38:20.040 --> 00:38:24.320 said there wouldn’t be a state, all of the Arabs reacted with, 733 00:38:24.320 --> 00:38:25.360 I told you so. 734 00:38:25.360 --> 00:38:27.320 We didn’t believe him in the first place. 735 00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:28.590 And then, of course, 736 00:38:28.590 --> 00:38:32.010 when he appeared to walk back from that on the following day, 737 00:38:32.010 --> 00:38:36.870 that just furthered the impression of mistrust 738 00:38:36.870 --> 00:38:39.440 on the part of the Palestinians and the Arabs. 739 00:38:39.440 --> 00:38:41.640 So, at the root cause of this, 740 00:38:41.640 --> 00:38:43.310 is that you have two leaders 741 00:38:43.310 --> 00:38:48.940 who do not believe that the other has the intent, sincerity, 742 00:38:48.940 --> 00:38:51.210 or capability to reach an agreement, 743 00:38:51.210 --> 00:38:54.340 and are therefore reluctant to take any steps 744 00:38:54.340 --> 00:38:58.650 that would impose a political cost on them within their societies 745 00:38:58.650 --> 00:39:01.160 because both societies are divided. 746 00:39:01.160 --> 00:39:04.240 Prime minister Netanyahu just got elected. 747 00:39:04.240 --> 00:39:10.180 So, he represents the democratic result of a free and open election in Israel, 748 00:39:10.180 --> 00:39:14.970 and the strong sentiment among his party and his supporters, 749 00:39:14.970 --> 00:39:16.670 not ever to be — 750 00:39:16.670 --> 00:39:20.520 for there not ever to be a Palestinian state on the West Bank. 751 00:39:21.250 --> 00:39:24.590 On the other hand, there are many Israelis who favor a two state solution. 752 00:39:24.590 --> 00:39:27.940 On the Palestinian side, it is about 50/50. 753 00:39:27.940 --> 00:39:32.180 You have Fatah, the principal party of the Palestinian Authority 754 00:39:32.180 --> 00:39:34.110 headed by the President Abbas, 755 00:39:34.110 --> 00:39:36.380 who favor a two state solution, 756 00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:40.960 and who favor peaceful, nonviolent negotiation to get there. 757 00:39:40.960 --> 00:39:43.620 On the other hand, Hamas, about half, 758 00:39:43.620 --> 00:39:46.110 and centered primarily in Gaza, 759 00:39:46.750 --> 00:39:48.880 who are opposed to an Israeli state, 760 00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:50.480 who are opposed to — 761 00:39:50.480 --> 00:39:52.190 who want to retain the right 762 00:39:52.190 --> 00:39:54.870 to use violence to end the occupation, 763 00:39:54.870 --> 00:39:56.150 as they say, 764 00:39:56.150 --> 00:39:58.170 and so both sides are divided. 765 00:39:58.170 --> 00:40:01.070 And if any leader takes a — makes a concession, 766 00:40:01.890 --> 00:40:03.910 he gets domestic, political criticism. 767 00:40:03.910 --> 00:40:06.580 Well, if you not think there’s ever going to be an agreement 768 00:40:06.580 --> 00:40:08.290 because the other guy is not sincere, 769 00:40:08.290 --> 00:40:11.140 you’re not willing to take steps to move in that direction. 770 00:40:11.140 --> 00:40:13.230 That is at the core of this problem, 771 00:40:13.230 --> 00:40:15.490 and I think that is what has to be overcome. 772 00:40:16.010 --> 00:40:18.780 AARON MATÉ: But, Senator, on the issue of Hamas, first of all, 773 00:40:18.780 --> 00:40:23.680 they were elected in 2006, so they are a legitimate government in Gaza, 774 00:40:23.680 --> 00:40:25.490 whether or not the U.S. or Israel like them or not, 775 00:40:25.490 --> 00:40:27.220 but Israel won’t deal with them. 776 00:40:27.220 --> 00:40:30.950 But also, on the issue of even Israeli and Palestinian statehood, 777 00:40:30.950 --> 00:40:34.890 hasn’t Hamas basically tacitly accepted Israel’s right 778 00:40:34.890 --> 00:40:37.260 to exist within its 67’ borders, 779 00:40:37.260 --> 00:40:38.610 because Hamas has said, 780 00:40:38.610 --> 00:40:42.190 we would accept a Palestinian state in the occupied territories. 781 00:40:42.190 --> 00:40:45.290 In doing so, you are basically saying that we recognize Israel, 782 00:40:45.290 --> 00:40:46.770 even if we don’t directly do it. 783 00:40:47.290 --> 00:40:51.480 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, first off, they won a parliamentary election. 784 00:40:52.080 --> 00:40:56.860 Their government is divided into an executive and a parliament. 785 00:40:56.860 --> 00:40:58.410 They didn’t win the presidency. 786 00:40:58.410 --> 00:41:01.000 What was at stake was the parliamentary election. 787 00:41:01.000 --> 00:41:05.600 President Abbas remained the democratically elected 788 00:41:05.600 --> 00:41:06.960 leader of the country. 789 00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:10.540 They, then, in a violent uprising 790 00:41:10.540 --> 00:41:14.760 defeated the forces of President Abbas and Fatah 791 00:41:14.760 --> 00:41:16.430 and evicted them from Gaza, 792 00:41:16.430 --> 00:41:22.930 and seized both executive and parliamentary control in Gaza, 793 00:41:22.930 --> 00:41:24.600 so let’s be clear about that. 794 00:41:24.600 --> 00:41:27.400 They didn’t win control of Gaza in an election. 795 00:41:27.400 --> 00:41:30.850 They won control of Gaza in a military action, 796 00:41:30.850 --> 00:41:35.090 which expelled the forces of the Palestinian Authority. 797 00:41:35.090 --> 00:41:37.760 Secondly, Hamas has prevented 798 00:41:37.760 --> 00:41:40.840 has prevented any election from occurring since then. 799 00:41:40.840 --> 00:41:43.670 They have the interesting political approach 800 00:41:43.670 --> 00:41:47.090 that they criticize Abbas as being illegitimate 801 00:41:47.090 --> 00:41:50.680 because he hasn’t been reelected since his term expired. 802 00:41:50.680 --> 00:41:52.350 The reason he hasn’t been reelected 803 00:41:52.350 --> 00:41:56.070 is that they won’t permit an election to occur in Gaza, 804 00:41:56.070 --> 00:41:58.040 and there are questions about whether an election 805 00:41:58.040 --> 00:42:00.480 could occur in Jerusalem as well. 806 00:42:00.480 --> 00:42:07.010 Secondly, on the issue of the Hamas and Israel — you say tacitly. 807 00:42:07.010 --> 00:42:09.490 Well, if you are an Israeli and someone says, well, 808 00:42:09.490 --> 00:42:10.850 look, I will do this tacitly, 809 00:42:10.850 --> 00:42:13.240 but I won’t explicitly, 810 00:42:13.240 --> 00:42:14.660 you’d be suspicious, 811 00:42:14.660 --> 00:42:16.470 and the Israelis rightly are. 812 00:42:16.470 --> 00:42:18.410 That they say — 813 00:42:18.410 --> 00:42:21.600 Hamas doesn’t say we tacitly recognize Israel, 814 00:42:21.600 --> 00:42:24.240 other people say it, as you have said it. 815 00:42:24.240 --> 00:42:26.510 Hamas says we’re against Israel. 816 00:42:26.510 --> 00:42:31.870 So, I think you have to be careful about implying a belief 817 00:42:31.870 --> 00:42:34.510 in someone who states the opposite, 818 00:42:35.010 --> 00:42:39.550 and rather, I think, you should rely on their actions. 819 00:42:39.550 --> 00:42:42.960 And so, I have always felt that if we could get real talk 820 00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:46.450 going between the Palestinian Authority and the Israelis 821 00:42:46.450 --> 00:42:51.790 that had a serious basis for proceeding, 822 00:42:51.790 --> 00:42:58.150 that is the best way to draw Hamas in and get them to reverse their positions 823 00:42:58.150 --> 00:43:02.160 that now represent the impediment to their participation. 824 00:43:02.160 --> 00:43:04.790 AMY GOODMAN: Senator Mitchell, I wanted to ask you a different question. 825 00:43:04.790 --> 00:43:09.070 We have been following the strange case of Rick Bourke, Frederick Bourke. 826 00:43:09.070 --> 00:43:11.810 It’s about a country that borders Iran, Azerbaijan. 827 00:43:11.810 --> 00:43:14.260 In the wave of the Soviet collapse, 828 00:43:15.260 --> 00:43:19.900 privatization of countries was happening at a record level, 829 00:43:19.900 --> 00:43:24.730 and it was believed Azerbaijan would privatize its oil supply. 830 00:43:24.730 --> 00:43:27.120 There were many who had invested in this — 831 00:43:27.120 --> 00:43:29.110 Columbia University, AIG, 832 00:43:29.110 --> 00:43:30.680 you did, Frederick Bourke did, 833 00:43:30.680 --> 00:43:32.450 who founded Dooney and Burke, 834 00:43:32.450 --> 00:43:34.100 the handbag company. 835 00:43:34.100 --> 00:43:37.010 In the end, the money was stolen. 836 00:43:37.010 --> 00:43:40.250 As Rick Bourke’s attorney, Michael Tigar, said, 837 00:43:40.250 --> 00:43:42.400 it was Victor Kozeny, 838 00:43:42.400 --> 00:43:45.870 this Czech criminal, who was a crook, he said. 839 00:43:45.870 --> 00:43:48.080 He said he stole every bit of Bourke’s money 840 00:43:48.080 --> 00:43:49.780 and all the other investors’ money, 841 00:43:49.780 --> 00:43:51.330 he bribed his area officials, 842 00:43:51.330 --> 00:43:55.130 he lives happily today un-extradited in the Bahamas. 843 00:43:55.130 --> 00:43:58.930 Ultimately, the only person that went to jail was Rick Bourke. 844 00:43:58.930 --> 00:44:02.960 The Government Accountability Project called him a whistleblower, 845 00:44:02.960 --> 00:44:05.080 yet he has just come out of jail. 846 00:44:05.610 --> 00:44:07.590 Do you believe he is a whistleblower, 847 00:44:07.590 --> 00:44:10.830 and you believe that he should be exonerated. 848 00:44:12.140 --> 00:44:15.150 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, I believe that he should not have been 849 00:44:15.150 --> 00:44:19.950 convicted in the trial, in which conviction did occur. 850 00:44:19.950 --> 00:44:23.120 I think it was a very unfortunate circumstance, 851 00:44:24.010 --> 00:44:30.870 and as you describe it, regrettable from Rick Bourke’s standpoint. 852 00:44:31.610 --> 00:44:33.870 AMY GOODMAN: Do you believe he should now be exonerated, 853 00:44:33.870 --> 00:44:35.930 to be able to clear his name fully? 854 00:44:36.570 --> 00:44:40.590 SEN. GEORGE MITCHELL: Well, yes, but I’m not sure what process would occur. 855 00:44:40.590 --> 00:44:42.150 He was tried, convicted. 856 00:44:42.150 --> 00:44:44.290 The conviction was upheld on appeal. 857 00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:48.360 But, as I said, I repeat, 858 00:44:48.360 --> 00:44:51.290 I do not believe he should have been convicted in the first place. 859 00:44:52.170 --> 00:44:53.400 AMY GOODMAN: Well, Senator George Mitchell, 860 00:44:53.400 --> 00:44:55.680 we want to thank you very much for joining us. 861 00:44:55.680 --> 00:44:59.450 Senator Mitchell served as the U.S. special envoy for Middle East Peace 862 00:44:59.450 --> 00:45:03.010 under President Obama from 2009 to 2011. 863 00:45:03.010 --> 00:45:05.580 He previously served under President Bill Clinton, 864 00:45:05.580 --> 00:45:07.510 as the Special Envoy for Northern Ireland, 865 00:45:07.510 --> 00:45:10.960 where he helped broker the Belfast Peace Agreement of 1998. 866 00:45:10.960 --> 00:45:12.980 Before that, Senator Mitchell 867 00:45:12.980 --> 00:45:15.830 served as Democratic Senator from Maine for 15 years, 868 00:45:15.830 --> 00:45:19.890 including as Senate Majority Leader from 1989 to 1995. 869 00:45:19.890 --> 00:45:23.530 This is democracy now. When we come back, we’re talking about Indiana. 870 00:45:23.530 --> 00:46:43.120 Stay with us. 871 00:46:46.410 --> 00:46:48.570 AARON MATÉ: Indiana has come under fierce criticism 872 00:46:48.570 --> 00:46:51.780 after Governor Mike Pence signed into law 873 00:46:51.780 --> 00:46:53.830 a new Religious Freedom Restoration Act 874 00:46:53.830 --> 00:46:56.640 that could sanction anti-LGBT discrimination, 875 00:46:56.640 --> 00:47:00.540 it could allow business owners to refuse service to lesbian, gay, 876 00:47:00.540 --> 00:47:02.490 bisexual and transgender customers 877 00:47:02.490 --> 00:47:04.200 in the name of religious freedom. 878 00:47:04.200 --> 00:47:07.200 The move has drawn widespread outrage with Connecticut becoming 879 00:47:07.200 --> 00:47:10.570 the first state to officially boycott Indiana over the move, 880 00:47:10.570 --> 00:47:13.340 followed by Washington State, San Francisco and Seattle. 881 00:47:13.890 --> 00:47:17.400 They have also imposed bans on city-funded travel to the state. 882 00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:18.780 Nine chief executive officers, 883 00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:21.820 including the heads of Angie’s List and Eli Lilly, 884 00:47:21.820 --> 00:47:25.290 wrote letters asking Indiana state officials to take immediate action 885 00:47:25.290 --> 00:47:28.940 to ensure the act will not sanction or encourage discrimination. 886 00:47:28.940 --> 00:47:32.410 Tim Cook, CEO of Apple, the world’s most profitable company, 887 00:47:32.410 --> 00:47:34.870 slammed Indiana’s law and others like it, 888 00:47:34.870 --> 00:47:37.890 likening it to the Jim Crow laws of the American South. 889 00:47:37.890 --> 00:47:41.240 Cook wrote, in the The Washington Post that Apple would oppose the measure, 890 00:47:41.240 --> 00:47:44.310 saying, "The days of segregation and discrimination 891 00:47:44.310 --> 00:47:47.310 marked by 'Whites Only' signs on shop doors, water fountains 892 00:47:47.310 --> 00:47:50.070 and restrooms must remain deep in our past. 893 00:47:50.070 --> 00:47:53.280 We must never return to any semblance of that time. 894 00:47:53.280 --> 00:47:56.000 America must be a land of opportunity for everyone." 895 00:47:56.000 --> 00:47:57.360 AMY GOODMAN: On Saturday, thousands 896 00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:00.650 marched in Indianapolis calling for Governor Pence’s resignation. 897 00:48:00.650 --> 00:48:03.000 And former NBA star Charles Barkley, 898 00:48:03.000 --> 00:48:07.280 is calling for the upcoming Final Four college basketball championship games 899 00:48:07.280 --> 00:48:08.430 to be moved out of state. 900 00:48:08.430 --> 00:48:11.000 Speaking to ABC News, Pence refused to answer 901 00:48:11.000 --> 00:48:14.480 whether it will be illegal to discriminate against LGBT people. 902 00:48:14.980 --> 00:48:16.610 GOV. MICHAEL PENCE: This is not about discrimination, 903 00:48:16.610 --> 00:48:19.520 this is about empowering to confront government overreach, George. 904 00:48:19.520 --> 00:48:20.150 GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me try to pin you down — 905 00:48:20.150 --> 00:48:21.380 let me try to pin you down here on it, 906 00:48:21.380 --> 00:48:22.820 because your supporters say it would. 907 00:48:22.820 --> 00:48:24.620 And so, yes or no, 908 00:48:24.620 --> 00:48:29.730 if a florist in Indiana refuses to serve a gay couple at their wedding, 909 00:48:29.730 --> 00:48:31.810 is that legal now in Indiana? 910 00:48:32.550 --> 00:48:35.060 GOV. MICHAEL PENCE: George, this is where this debate 911 00:48:35.060 --> 00:48:37.900 has gone with misinformation, and frankly — 912 00:48:37.900 --> 00:48:38.920 GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: It’s just a question. 913 00:48:38.920 --> 00:48:40.080 Yes or no? GOV. MICHAEL PENCE: Well, well, 914 00:48:40.080 --> 00:48:44.430 there’s been shameless rhetoric about my state and about this law 915 00:48:44.430 --> 00:48:47.190 and about its intention all over the internet. 916 00:48:47.190 --> 00:48:50.300 People are trying to make it about one particular issue, 917 00:48:50.300 --> 00:48:51.950 and now you’re doing that as well. 918 00:48:51.950 --> 00:48:52.980 AMY GOODMAN: That’s ABC 's 919 00:48:52.980 --> 00:48:55.150 George Stephanopoulos questioning Governor Pence 920 00:48:55.150 --> 00:48:58.740 who says he'll now seek a new measure to clarify the intent of his new law, 921 00:48:58.740 --> 00:49:01.310 though, he noted LGBT protections are, 922 00:49:01.310 --> 00:49:03.360 "not on my agenda." 923 00:49:03.360 --> 00:49:05.560 For more, we are joined by Eunice Rho, 924 00:49:05.560 --> 00:49:09.490 advocacy and policy counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. 925 00:49:09.490 --> 00:49:10.530 Welcome to Democracy Now! 926 00:49:10.530 --> 00:49:14.730 Talk about the significance of this so-called Religious Freedom Law. 927 00:49:14.730 --> 00:49:16.280 EUNICE RHO: Thank you for having me. 928 00:49:16.280 --> 00:49:18.430 So, Indiana is now the 20th state 929 00:49:18.430 --> 00:49:20.750 to pass the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, 930 00:49:20.750 --> 00:49:23.880 but, it is different from where this debate originally began. 931 00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.960 As you may remember, in 1993, there was a federal law 932 00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:30.740 that passed Congress following a Native American 933 00:49:30.740 --> 00:49:33.020 who smoked peyote as part of his religious ritual 934 00:49:33.020 --> 00:49:36.710 and then was dismissed from his job and then denied unemployment benefits. 935 00:49:36.710 --> 00:49:40.730 He challenged that decision as a burden on his religious beliefs 936 00:49:40.730 --> 00:49:44.500 and the Supreme Court ruled against the Native American religious believer. 937 00:49:44.500 --> 00:49:47.060 So, in response to that, 938 00:49:47.060 --> 00:49:49.780 Congress enacted the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act. 939 00:49:49.780 --> 00:49:51.460 AMY GOODMAN: This was under President Clinton, he signed off on it. 940 00:49:51.460 --> 00:49:52.490 EUNICE RHO: This was under President Clinton, yes — 941 00:49:52.490 --> 00:49:54.210 AMY GOODMAN: And is what Pence keeps citing, 942 00:49:54.210 --> 00:49:57.550 we’re not doing anything different that Clinton did or 20 other states. 943 00:49:57.550 --> 00:49:59.570 EUNICE RHO: Right, and I have to be very honest and say 944 00:49:59.570 --> 00:50:03.150 the ACLU was part of that very broad and very diverse coalition. 945 00:50:03.150 --> 00:50:06.900 Fast-forward to 2015, we’re in a completely different context. 946 00:50:06.900 --> 00:50:10.200 This law, the Religious Freedom and Restoration Act in Indiana 947 00:50:10.200 --> 00:50:11.890 was introduced last year 948 00:50:11.890 --> 00:50:16.240 once the legislature failed to pass a ban on same-sex marriage. 949 00:50:16.240 --> 00:50:20.300 They followed it up in 2015 because they didn’t pass it last year, 950 00:50:20.300 --> 00:50:24.390 and this time around, the legislators swore up and down, the leadership 951 00:50:24.390 --> 00:50:28.160 said we are not intending for this law to be used to discriminate, 952 00:50:28.160 --> 00:50:29.260 and so we said great. 953 00:50:29.260 --> 00:50:30.520 We support religious freedom, 954 00:50:30.520 --> 00:50:32.930 we don’t want it to be used to discriminate either. 955 00:50:32.930 --> 00:50:35.310 Let’s clarify this, let’s put it in the bill, 956 00:50:35.310 --> 00:50:39.140 and every single one of those amendments was voted down by the legislature 957 00:50:39.140 --> 00:50:42.280 that swore to us that they did not want this to be used to discriminate. 958 00:50:42.280 --> 00:50:44.940 And then, at the signing ceremony that Governor Pence held, 959 00:50:44.940 --> 00:50:47.500 he had two representative from organizations 960 00:50:47.500 --> 00:50:49.560 that are widely known in the state of Indiana 961 00:50:49.560 --> 00:50:52.030 to be very anti-gay, and, in fact, 962 00:50:52.030 --> 00:50:56.170 justify their support of the Indiana Religious Freedom Restoration Act, 963 00:50:56.910 --> 00:51:00.330 justify their support, by saying that it can be used 964 00:51:00.330 --> 00:51:03.240 and it will be used to discriminate against LGBT people. 965 00:51:03.240 --> 00:51:07.230 So, I think all of Governor Pence’s declaration, unfortunately, 966 00:51:07.230 --> 00:51:10.630 are refuted by the evidence to the contrary. 967 00:51:10.630 --> 00:51:12.540 AARON MATÉ: What exactly could this law do? 968 00:51:12.540 --> 00:51:14.540 And what about the argument that Amy mentioned, 969 00:51:14.540 --> 00:51:18.180 which is that Pence says that 20 other states have this on the books? 970 00:51:18.180 --> 00:51:22.080 EUNICE RHO: Sure, so, again, the context in Indiana being so different, 971 00:51:22.080 --> 00:51:23.870 and in terms of what the law can do, 972 00:51:23.870 --> 00:51:26.490 it allows anyone to voice a religious objection 973 00:51:26.490 --> 00:51:28.440 to any law or policy on the books 974 00:51:28.440 --> 00:51:31.170 and would require the court to resolve that dispute, 975 00:51:31.170 --> 00:51:34.640 but, the test that the court has to apply is very stringent 976 00:51:34.640 --> 00:51:37.310 and it is difficult for the defending party 977 00:51:37.310 --> 00:51:39.400 because they have to show whatever policy 978 00:51:39.400 --> 00:51:42.420 that is being challenged furthers a compelling governmental interest, 979 00:51:42.420 --> 00:51:45.950 and applying that policy to the person 980 00:51:45.950 --> 00:51:49.680 who is trying to challenge it is the only way of achieving that interest. 981 00:51:50.410 --> 00:51:52.130 AMY GOODMAN: I want to talk about that picture 982 00:51:52.130 --> 00:51:54.900 you referred to of the private signing ceremony, 983 00:51:54.900 --> 00:51:56.450 the single graphic, 984 00:51:56.450 --> 00:52:02.020 writes GLAAD — that’s the group against gay and lesbian discrimination — 985 00:52:02.020 --> 00:52:03.600 one simple graphic, they say, 986 00:52:03.600 --> 00:52:07.790 shows the anti-LGBT animus behind Indiana’s law. 987 00:52:07.790 --> 00:52:12.850 They say that among those who were at this private signing ceremony 988 00:52:12.850 --> 00:52:15.260 were Micah Clark, Curt Smith, 989 00:52:15.260 --> 00:52:16.740 and Eric Miller, 990 00:52:16.740 --> 00:52:19.760 and then they cited what some of them have said; 991 00:52:20.330 --> 00:52:25.030 Kurt Smith equating homosexuality with bestiality and adultery, 992 00:52:25.570 --> 00:52:30.260 Eric Miller saying pedophilia is a sexual orientation on par 993 00:52:30.260 --> 00:52:31.520 with homosexuality. 994 00:52:31.520 --> 00:52:34.500 These are the men who are standing right next to Governor Pence 995 00:52:34.500 --> 00:52:36.910 in this private ceremony signing the bill. 996 00:52:36.910 --> 00:52:38.400 EUNICE RHO: It is incredibly unfortunate 997 00:52:38.400 --> 00:52:41.340 that these are the people that he chose to represent in the photo 998 00:52:41.340 --> 00:52:44.770 that the governor’s office issued after its private signing ceremony. 999 00:52:44.770 --> 00:52:46.140 But, I would like to point out, 1000 00:52:46.140 --> 00:52:47.950 there is now a vigorous effort 1001 00:52:47.950 --> 00:52:50.810 to try to mitigate the damage that has been done to Indiana 1002 00:52:50.810 --> 00:52:53.550 both economically and just reputationaly. 1003 00:52:53.550 --> 00:52:57.500 There is an effort to update the existing state civil rights laws 1004 00:52:57.500 --> 00:52:59.680 to include protections for LGBT people, 1005 00:52:59.680 --> 00:53:02.590 and to update the Religious Freedom Restoration Act 1006 00:53:02.590 --> 00:53:03.900 that has just been passed, as well, 1007 00:53:03.900 --> 00:53:06.710 to be sure that it cannot be used to discriminate, 1008 00:53:06.710 --> 00:53:08.080 and this is an ongoing effort. 1009 00:53:08.080 --> 00:53:10.770 The Indiana legislature has a month left in its session. 1010 00:53:10.770 --> 00:53:12.810 I think the governor and the legislature 1011 00:53:12.810 --> 00:53:16.340 have a real opportunity to fix this problem 1012 00:53:16.340 --> 00:53:18.790 and ensure that Indiana is again open for everybody. 1013 00:53:18.790 --> 00:53:20.220 AMY GOODMAN: Is Arkansas next? 1014 00:53:20.220 --> 00:53:23.460 EUNICE RHO: Yes, the Religious Freedom Restoration Act 1015 00:53:23.460 --> 00:53:25.220 in Arkansas has passed the legislature, 1016 00:53:25.220 --> 00:53:26.790 it is headed to the governor’s office. 1017 00:53:26.790 --> 00:53:28.360 AMY GOODMAN: The governor says he will sign. 1018 00:53:28.360 --> 00:53:30.280 We will see what will happens with — 1019 00:53:30.280 --> 00:53:32.120 I mean, it’s not just the people 1020 00:53:32.120 --> 00:53:35.160 that Governor Pence expected to be opposed to this. 1021 00:53:35.160 --> 00:53:40.350 He has got the largest corporations in his state, 1022 00:53:40.350 --> 00:53:42.340 he’s got the NCAA, 1023 00:53:42.340 --> 00:53:46.450 he’s got major boycotts being announced by other states 1024 00:53:46.450 --> 00:53:48.710 not sending workers, 1025 00:53:48.710 --> 00:53:52.160 state employees from Connecticut on the public dime, to Indiana. 1026 00:53:52.720 --> 00:53:54.620 EUNICE RHO: You know, I think we have been incredibly heartened, 1027 00:53:54.620 --> 00:53:56.830 I think we all have been, by the public outcry, 1028 00:53:56.830 --> 00:53:58.730 especially from the business community. 1029 00:53:58.730 --> 00:54:02.340 I think this really signals a widespread understanding 1030 00:54:02.340 --> 00:54:06.920 that LGBT equality is an American value that we should all uphold. 1031 00:54:06.920 --> 00:54:08.980 And I’m especially encouraged by the fact 1032 00:54:08.980 --> 00:54:11.830 that the CEOs were not just sending statements of support, 1033 00:54:11.830 --> 00:54:15.090 but actually putting their money where their mouths are. 1034 00:54:17.150 --> 00:54:18.880 AARON MATÉ: And it signals that corporations have a lot 1035 00:54:18.880 --> 00:54:22.320 of influence and power over politics and policy decisions. 1036 00:54:22.320 --> 00:54:23.960 EUNICE RHO: Absolutely, and I think that other states 1037 00:54:23.960 --> 00:54:27.130 that are contemplating similar laws like Arkansas or North Carolina 1038 00:54:27.130 --> 00:54:28.590 or Nevada and elsewhere, 1039 00:54:28.590 --> 00:54:30.660 really need to pay attention to Indiana, 1040 00:54:30.660 --> 00:54:32.930 and their legislators and governors in those states 1041 00:54:32.930 --> 00:54:36.540 should understand that this is not only what the public wants, 1042 00:54:36.540 --> 00:54:39.980 but it’s also not what is sound for their state economies. 1043 00:54:39.980 --> 00:54:45.480 AMY GOODMAN: Would it be solved by simply making LGBT people protected, 1044 00:54:45.480 --> 00:54:47.400 that they can’t be discriminated against, 1045 00:54:47.400 --> 00:54:51.810 or does it simply need to be revoked, 1046 00:54:51.810 --> 00:54:53.910 and should that happen in other states? 1047 00:54:53.910 --> 00:54:59.090 Should the federal religious freedom law simply be overturned? 1048 00:54:59.090 --> 00:55:01.330 EUNICE RHO: I think one of the most encouraging parts of the dialogue 1049 00:55:01.330 --> 00:55:04.750 is it is encouraging the re-examination of not only the Indiana law, 1050 00:55:04.750 --> 00:55:07.460 but existing laws in other states. 1051 00:55:07.460 --> 00:55:10.870 In states that have LGBT protection statewide, 1052 00:55:10.870 --> 00:55:14.340 they should consider updating their Religious Freedom Restoration Acts 1053 00:55:14.340 --> 00:55:15.970 to make it crystal clear to the courts 1054 00:55:15.970 --> 00:55:18.580 that their civil rights laws are not up to debate. 1055 00:55:18.580 --> 00:55:21.950 These laws should not at all be used to discriminate or harm 1056 00:55:21.950 --> 00:55:23.840 against their state’s citizens. 1057 00:55:23.840 --> 00:55:25.810 AMY GOODMAN: We want to thank you, Eunice Rho for joining us. 1058 00:55:25.810 --> 00:55:29.100 Advocacy and policy counsel for the American Civil Liberties Union. 1059 00:55:29.100 --> 00:55:31.480 She works with ALCU offices across the country 1060 00:55:31.480 --> 00:55:35.660 in their lobbying and advocacy work on laws pertaining to religious freedom. 1061 00:55:35.660 --> 00:55:38.980 And of course, we will continue what’s happening in Indiana 1062 00:55:38.980 --> 00:55:41.370 and across the states around this country. 1063 00:55:42.230 --> 00:55:44.570 AARON MATÉ: We end today’s show with news of imprisoned journalist 1064 00:55:44.570 --> 00:55:46.770 and former Black Panther Mumia Abu-Jamal 1065 00:55:46.770 --> 00:55:49.000 has been taken to the Intensive Care Unit 1066 00:55:49.000 --> 00:55:52.160 of his prison hospital in Pottsville, Pennsylvania, 1067 00:55:52.160 --> 00:55:54.880 after he was removed from prison for a medical emergency 1068 00:55:54.880 --> 00:55:58.900 without any notification to his family, friends or lawyers. 1069 00:55:58.900 --> 00:55:59.930 AMY GOODMAN: For more are joined 1070 00:55:59.930 --> 00:56:02.820 by by Mumia Abu-Jamal’s longtime friend Johanna Fernández, 1071 00:56:02.820 --> 00:56:06.010 who first discovered he was in the hospital on Monday 1072 00:56:06.010 --> 00:56:08.090 when she went to visit him in prison 1073 00:56:08.090 --> 00:56:10.750 and was told he had been taken to the intensive care unit 1074 00:56:10.750 --> 00:56:13.820 at Schuylkill Medical Center in Pottsville, Pennsylvania. 1075 00:56:13.820 --> 00:56:15.520 Welcome back to Democracy Now! 1076 00:56:15.520 --> 00:56:17.100 We only have a few minutes, 1077 00:56:17.100 --> 00:56:20.480 but, What do you understand has happened to Mumia Abu-Jamal? 1078 00:56:20.480 --> 00:56:24.140 JOHANNA FERNÁNDEZ: Well, Mumia has had a longstanding situation. 1079 00:56:24.140 --> 00:56:29.440 Over the last three months he developed severe eczema outbreak. 1080 00:56:29.950 --> 00:56:33.760 He describes his skin as akin to that of an elephant’s, 1081 00:56:33.760 --> 00:56:35.870 it’s been raw, bleeding. 1082 00:56:35.870 --> 00:56:39.800 He was in the infirmary for approximately a week 1083 00:56:39.800 --> 00:56:43.250 within the hospital, approximately a month ago. 1084 00:56:43.250 --> 00:56:47.170 So, that means that he has been undergoing medical examinations, 1085 00:56:47.170 --> 00:56:49.080 or least we have been told. 1086 00:56:49.080 --> 00:56:53.210 Yesterday, he underwent a diabetic shock. 1087 00:56:53.850 --> 00:56:54.930 AMY GOODMAN: How do you know this? 1088 00:56:54.930 --> 00:57:00.120 JOHANNA FERNÁNDEZ: Because the prison informed his wife, Wadiya Jamal. 1089 00:57:00.120 --> 00:57:02.080 When we arrived at the prison, 1090 00:57:02.080 --> 00:57:03.980 were informed that we could not visit him 1091 00:57:03.980 --> 00:57:06.920 and pressured the prison to tell us what was going on. 1092 00:57:06.920 --> 00:57:08.980 They finally said he, well, he’s been hospitalized 1093 00:57:08.980 --> 00:57:10.110 but would not release information. 1094 00:57:10.110 --> 00:57:11.500 AMY GOODMAN: Not in a prison hospital, but in a local hospital. 1095 00:57:11.500 --> 00:57:13.830 JOHANNA FERNÁNDEZ: Not in a prison hospital, but in a local hospital, 1096 00:57:13.830 --> 00:57:18.100 Schuylkill Medical Center in Pottsville, Pennsylvania. 1097 00:57:18.100 --> 00:57:21.710 So, right now, Mumia is sequestered. 1098 00:57:21.710 --> 00:57:27.870 He hasn’t been seen by any of his attorneys or supporters 1099 00:57:27.870 --> 00:57:28.900 or next of kin. 1100 00:57:28.900 --> 00:57:30.420 AMY GOODMAN: His brother, Kevin Cook? JOHANNA FERNÁNDEZ: His brother 1101 00:57:30.420 --> 00:57:32.150 was there — AMY GOODMAN: Keith Cook. 1102 00:57:32.150 --> 00:57:35.820 JOHANNA FERNÁNDEZ: — Keith Cook, for the past 20 hours. 1103 00:57:35.820 --> 00:57:37.940 Pam Africa, Ramona Africa, 1104 00:57:37.940 --> 00:57:44.790 they all drove there from Harrisburg, where the case of the silencing act 1105 00:57:44.790 --> 00:57:47.640 was being heard before the third circuit court. 1106 00:57:47.640 --> 00:57:52.310 Immediately, after that ended, they rushed up to Pottsville, 1107 00:57:52.310 --> 00:57:55.280 and the doctors will not speak to us. 1108 00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:58.260 They will not release any information to the family. 1109 00:57:58.260 --> 00:58:01.770 Meanwhile, Mumia is shackled, probably, to a bed. 1110 00:58:01.770 --> 00:58:07.260 There are four guards, a phalanx of guards guarding him, 1111 00:58:07.260 --> 00:58:11.100 and keeping us from the room, 10 feet away. 1112 00:58:11.100 --> 00:58:13.150 We were able to see that he was behind this room. 1113 00:58:13.150 --> 00:58:14.380 AMY GOODMAN: What do you feel needs to happen? 1114 00:58:14.380 --> 00:58:18.850 JOHANNA FERNÁNDEZ: We need to defend Mumia’s life immediately. 1115 00:58:18.850 --> 00:58:21.240 He is in enemy territory right now, 1116 00:58:21.240 --> 00:58:24.370 and we need people to call the hospital, 1117 00:58:24.370 --> 00:58:27.820 Schuylkill Medical Center in Pottsville, Pennsylvania. 1118 00:58:27.820 --> 00:58:30.890 We need people to call the prison and demand 1119 00:58:30.890 --> 00:58:36.560 that he be seen by outside doctors to really assess the situation. 1120 00:58:36.560 --> 00:58:37.760 AMY GOODMAN: Johanna, we have to leave it there. 1121 00:58:37.760 --> 00:58:38.900 I thank you for being with us, 1122 00:58:38.900 --> 00:58:40.520 Johanna Fernández, Professor of History 1123 00:58:40.520 --> 00:58:41.900 at Baruch College CUNY, 1124 00:58:41.900 --> 00:58:45.110 one of the coordinators of the campaign to Bring Mumia Home, it’s called. 1125 00:58:45.680 --> 00:58:47.220 That does it for the show. 1126 00:58:47.220 --> 00:58:50.180 A very happy birthday to our own Mike Burke!