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From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now!

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Did U.S. military leaders undermine
President Obama’s policy on Syria?

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A new report
by veteran journalist Seymour Hersh

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says the Joint Chiefs of Staff
has indirectly supported Bashar al-Assad

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in an effort
to help him defeat jihadist groups.

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Hersh will join us to detail his claims
and respond to his critics.

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Then, spying on Pete Seeger.

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Well, I have assumed most of my life

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that if there wasn’t a microphone
under the bed,

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they were tapping the phone
from time to time

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and opening my mail from time to time.

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Who knows?

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The late folk artist Pete Seeger
was a musical and political icon

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who helped create
the modern American folk music movement.

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Now there are some new pages
to add to his songbook—

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the government
has released nearly 1,800 pages

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that reveal the FBI spied on him
for almost 30 years.

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The surveillance began when Seeger
protested the targeting

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of Japanese Americans
during World War II.

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It continued until the early ’70s,

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as he wrote some of the most famous
antiwar songs of the 20th century.

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"Sergeant, don’t be a Nervous Nellie,"

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The Captain said to him.

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"All we need is a little determination;

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Men, follow me, I’ll lead on."

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We were—neck deep in the Big Muddy

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The big fool said to push on.

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We’ll speak to Peter Seeger’s
biographer, David King Dunaway,

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about the more than 1,700 pages
that the government has released.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

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The War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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The number of refugees who have entered
Europe this year has topped 1 million.

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The International Organization
for Migration said the tally

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marks a fourfold increase
over last year.

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It’s the greatest exodus of people
since World War II.

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The vast majority have arrived by sea.

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Nearly 3,700 people have drowned

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or remain missing
after attempted sea crossings.

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Most of the refugees

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are from Syria, Iraq and Afghanistan,
countries ravaged by war.

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Click here to see our report
on refugees of U.S. wars

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who are living
in France’s largest refugee camp.

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Speaking
before the U.N. Security Council Monday,

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U.N. High Commissioner
for Refugees António Guterres

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said people who reject Syrian refugees

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are the "best allies" of extremists
like the self-proclaimed Islamic State.

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António Guterres: "Those
that reject Syrian refugees,

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and especially if they are Muslim,

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are the best allies of the propaganda
and the recruitment of extremist groups.

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We must not forget that—

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despite the rhetoric
we are hearing these days—

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refugees are the first victims
of such terror, not its source.

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They cannot be blamed for a threat

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which they’re risking their lives
to escape."

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In news from Afghanistan,

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six U.S. soldiers

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have been killed by a suicide bomber
on a motorcycle in Bagram.

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Two other soldiers
and a U.S. contractor were wounded.

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Afghan police may also have been
injured.

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The Taliban has claimed responsibility.

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It was the deadliest attack on Americans
in Afghanistan since August.

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It comes amid fierce fighting
in southern Helmand province,

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where the Taliban
has overrun a key district.

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Meanwhile, in other news on Afghanistan,

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Human Rights Watch has called
for the U.S. military bombing

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of a Doctors
Without Borders hospital in Kunduz

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to be investigated
as a possible criminal act.

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In a letter
to Defense Secretary Ash Carter,

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Human Rights Watch
says, "If the current investigation

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does not include a criminal inquiry,

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we call on you
to order a criminal investigation."

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The attack killed 42 people.

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Doctors Without Borders has called
for an independent probe.

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Human Rights Watch
has also accused the United States

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of flouting the laws of war by failing
to investigate unlawful strikes

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carried out by the Saudi-led coalition
targeting Houthi rebels in Yemen.

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Human Rights Watch
says the U.S.-backed coalition

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carried out at least six
apparently unlawful airstrikes

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in residential areas
of the Yemeni capital,

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Sana’a, in September
and October, killing 60 civilians.

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Joe Stork, deputy Middle East director
for Human Rights Watch,

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said, "How many civilians
will die in unlawful airstrikes

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in Yemen before the coalition
and its U.S. ally

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investigate what went wrong
and who is responsible?

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Their disregard for the safety
of civilians is appalling."

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Despite a ceasefire, scores of people

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have been killed in Yemen
over the past week.

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To see our interview with Democracy Now!

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correspondent Sharif Abdel Kouddous
on Yemen,

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you can go to democracynow.org.

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Iraqi forces have reportedly stormed
the center of the key city of Ramadi,

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which fell to the self-proclaimed
Islamic State in May.

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The attempt to retake Ramadi
began in November.

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Iraqi officials have vowed to clear ISIS
from the city within 72 hours.

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South Carolina Senator Lindsey Graham

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has suspended his bid for the Republican
presidential nomination.

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In a video message,

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Graham said his campaign
has successfully increased support

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for ramping up the war against ISIS.

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Sen. Lindsey Graham: "Four months ago,
at the very first debate,

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I said that any candidate

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who did not understand
that we need more American troops

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on the ground
in Iraq and Syria to defeat ISIL

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was not ready to be commander-in-chief.

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At that time, no one
stepped forward to join me.

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Today, most of my fellow candidates

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have come to recognize this is
what’s needed to secure our homeland."

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In Texas, a grand jury

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has failed to indict anyone
in the death of Sandra Bland,

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a 28-year-old African-American woman

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found dead
in her Waller County jail cell in July.

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Bland was arrested July 10
by Texas State Trooper Brian Encinia,

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who accused her
of failing to signal a lane change.

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Dash cam video of her arrest
shows Encinia forcibly

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removing Bland from her car
and threatening to "light

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[her] up" after she refused
to put out her cigarette.

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She can later be heard accusing police
of slamming her head into the ground

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and saying she has epilepsy, to which

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Trooper Encinia replies, "Good."

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Bland had recently moved to Texas

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to start a job at Prairie View A&M
University, her alma mater.

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But she was found hanging
from a trash bag in her cell

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three days after her arrest.

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Her family and supporters
have disputed authorities’ claim

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her death was a suicide.

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Speaking Monday, special prosecutor

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Darrell Jordan said the grand jury
will reconvene next month.

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Darrell Jordan: "It has been
a very, very long day,

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for us, as well as the grand jury.

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After presenting all the evidence

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as it relates to the death
of Sandra Bland,

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the grand jury
did not return an indictment.

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The grand jury also considered things
that occurred at the jail,

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and did not return an indictment.

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There are other issues that
the grand jury is still considering,

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and they will take up those issues
when we return next month."

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Sandra Bland’s family

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says they have been shut
out of the grand jury process

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and only learned of Monday’s decision
from news reports.

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In a statement,
Democratic presidential candidate

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and Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders

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said, "There’s no doubt in my mind
that [Sandra Bland],

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like too many African-Americans
who die in police custody,

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would be alive today
if she were a white woman.

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We need to reform a very broken
criminal justice system."

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In Maryland, a judge

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has scheduled the retrial of
Baltimore Police Officer William Porter

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in the death of Freddie Gray
for June 13.

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Porter was the first of six officers
to be tried over Gray’s death.

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A family attorney says Gray’s spine
was "80 percent severed at his neck"

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from fatal injuries

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sustained in police custody in April.

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Officer Porter’s case
ended in a mistrial last week

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after a jury deadlocked on charges
including involuntary manslaughter.

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Porter’s new trial date is
after those of the other five officers,

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meaning he will likely decline
to testify at those trials,

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presenting a hurdle for prosecutors

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who had hoped
to call him as a key witness.

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In Nevada, a 24-year-old woman
is facing murder charges after police

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say she intentionally ran her car
onto a sidewalk

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on the Las Vegas Strip Sunday,

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killing one person
and injuring dozens more.

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Lakeisha Holloway told authorities
she was under extreme stress

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because she had been
chased by security guards

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out of parking lots where she was trying
to sleep in her car.

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She had been living in her car

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with her three-year-old daughter
for about a week.

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Meanwhile, the Mall of America

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has sued eight activists
with Black Lives Matter Minneapolis

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in an attempt to block a protest
scheduled for tomorrow

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over the fatal police shooting
of Jamar Clark.

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Part of the suit requests

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the activists delete social media posts
promoting the protest.

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Last year a Black Lives Matter protest
at the mall drew over 2,000 people.

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Police have said Jamar Clark was shot
after a scuffle with officers

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who responded to a report of an assault.

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But multiple witnesses have said
Clark was shot while handcuffed.

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A manhunt is underway
for an 18-year-old white Texas teenager

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convicted of killing four people
in a drunk-driving crash in 2013.

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Ethan Couch was not sentenced
to any time in jail

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after a trial where a psychologist
claimed he had "affluenza"—

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meaning his wealthy background

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purportedly prevented him
from understanding the consequences

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of his actions.

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Couch was sent
to an expensive rehab facility instead.

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After he missed a check-in
with his probation officer,

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officials are concerned
Couch may have fled the country.

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They are also searching for his mother,
who may have fled with him.

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In Richmond, California, police

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have arrested a white man accused
of building homemade explosive devices

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in order to bomb local Muslims.

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William Celli was arrested Sunday
after police said he threatened members

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of the Islamic Society
of West Contra Costa County.

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Celli is a vocal supporter of Republican
presidential candidate Donald Trump,

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who has called for banning Muslims
from entering the United States.

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In October, Celli posted on social media

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that he would "follow [Trump]
to the end of the world."

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The Council on American-Islamic
Relations has released a new report

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finding a greater frequency
of vandalism and other acts

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targeting mosques this year
than in any other year on record.

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Of 71 incidents reported this year,

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29 occurred
after the November 13 attacks in Paris.

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Meanwhile, President Obama
has accused Donald Trump

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of "exploiting" the anxieties
of "blue-collar men."

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In an interview with NPR,

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Obama said the combination
of demographic changes,

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flatlining wages
and other economic hurdles

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"means that there is going to be
potential anger, frustration, fear.

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Some of it justified,
but just misdirected.

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I think somebody like Mr. Trump
is taking advantage of that."

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Comedian Bill Cosby has filed a lawsuit

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against model Beverly Johnson,

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accusing her of falsifying her claim

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Cosby drugged and tried
to rape her in the 1980s.

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Last week, Cosby sued seven
of his other accusers for defamation.

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Cosby is accused of drugging and raping
scores of women over multiple decades.

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More than 50 women have come forward
with allegations against him.

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Meanwhile, another high-profile figure
accused of sexual abuse—

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musician R. Kelly—
walked out of a live interview Monday

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after a host
asked him about repeated accusations

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that he sexually abused minors.

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HuffPost Live host

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Caroline Modarressy-Tehrani
questioned him about the claims.

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Caroline Modarressy-Tehrani: "What do
you say to the multiple fans,

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the many fans
who are watching and listening,

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that say there have been
multiple accusations against you,

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against young women in Chicago,

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and they are concerned about your past,

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and that’s impacting them
from purchasing your music sales?"

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R. Kelly: 
[talking over Modarressy-Tehrani]

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"I say I love my fans.
I say I love my fans.

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I say I love all of my fans.

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People that are against me, people
that are with me, I love them all.

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I love them all.
It doesn’t matter who they are.

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If they hate me, they love me,

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they want to destroy me,
whatever, I love them all.

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And I love you, too."

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Caroline Modarressy-Tehrani: "You don’t
need to give me any of your love, sir."

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R. Kelly: "I love everybody."

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The Obama administration

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00:12:41.320 --> 00:12:45.330
has lifted its blanket ban
on blood donations by gay men—

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saying they can now donate blood

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but only if they haven’t had sex
with another man in the past 12 months.

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00:12:50.930 --> 00:12:53.440
The Food and Drug Administration
said it made the decision

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in response to the latest science
on HIV transmission.

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But critics say the policy
is still biased.

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Colorado Congressmember Jared Polis,

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00:13:00.950 --> 00:13:04.430
who co-chairs a caucus
of openly gay congressmembers,

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00:13:04.430 --> 00:13:08.000
told Reuters, "It is ridiculous
and counter to the public health

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that a married gay man
in a monogamous relationship

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can’t give blood,

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00:13:12.110 --> 00:13:13.840
but a promiscuous straight man

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00:13:13.840 --> 00:13:16.220
who has had hundreds
of opposite-sex partners

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00:13:16.220 --> 00:13:18.000
in the last year can."

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And in Ohio, Republican lawmakers

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00:13:22.380 --> 00:13:25.860
have announced plans
to introduce legislation requiring women

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who have miscarriages or abortions

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00:13:28.170 --> 00:13:31.470
to specify burial
or cremation arrangements

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for their fetal or embryonic tissue.

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Indiana and Arkansas have recently
passed similar requirements.

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The move comes after Ohio Attorney
General Mike DeWine spent months

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investigating Planned Parenthood
following heavily edited,

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00:13:44.790 --> 00:13:48.040
anti-choice videos surrounding
Planned Parenthood’s donation

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00:13:48.040 --> 00:13:50.570
of fetal tissue to medical researchers.

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As in multiple other investigations,
Ohio turned up nothing.

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And those are some of the headlines
this is Democracy Now,

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Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.
AMY GOODMAN: The United Nations

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Security Council’s passage
of a peace plan for Syria

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has been called perhaps the best chance
yet to end the country’s civil war.

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The measure, approved Friday,

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calls for a ceasefire, talks
between the government and opposition,

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and a roughly two-year timeline
to form a unity government

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and hold elections.

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00:14:18.450 --> 00:14:21.980
Secretary of State John Kerry
outlined the terms.

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SECRETARY OF STATE JOHN KERRY:
Under the resolution approved today,

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the purpose of those negotiations
between the responsible opposition

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00:14:28.240 --> 00:14:32.770
and the government is
to facilitate a transition within Syria

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00:14:32.770 --> 00:14:37.380
to a credible, inclusive,
nonsectarian governance

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within six months.

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00:14:39.430 --> 00:14:43.980
The process would lead to the drafting
of a new constitution and arrangements

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00:14:43.980 --> 00:14:48.090
for internationally supervised election
within 18 months.

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AMY GOODMAN: The resolution

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00:14:49.370 --> 00:14:52.360
is silent on the fate
of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

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00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:56.410
The U.S. has insisted on excluding Assad
from a political transition,

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pointing to the mass killings
of his own people

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00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:00.780
throughout the more than four-year war.

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But Russia and China
have staunchly backed Assad.

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The world powers’ impasse has fueled
U.N. inaction amidst a death toll

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of more than 250,000
and the world’s worst refugee crisis.

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Although the U.S.
remains opposed to Assad,

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his omission from the Security Council
resolution signals a softening stance

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00:15:19.900 --> 00:15:22.330
and a potential
diplomatic turning point.

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The Obama administration has quietly
backed off its public insistence

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that Assad must go,

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claiming it’s no longer
seeking regime change in Syria.

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Now an explosive new report
says U.S. military leadership

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00:15:34.520 --> 00:15:38.160
in the Joint Chiefs of Staff
has held that view all along

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00:15:38.160 --> 00:15:42.350
and has taken secret steps
to move U.S. policy in that direction.

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00:15:42.350 --> 00:15:46.660
According to award-winning veteran
investigative journalist Seymour Hersh,

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00:15:46.660 --> 00:15:48.340
the Joint of Chiefs of Staff

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00:15:48.340 --> 00:15:54.570
has tacitly aided the Assad regime
to help it defeat radical jihadists.

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00:15:54.570 --> 00:15:58.370
Hersh reports the Joint Chiefs
sent intelligence via Russia,

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00:15:58.370 --> 00:16:03.110
Germany and Israel, on the understanding
it would be transmitted to help Assad

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00:16:03.110 --> 00:16:07.290
push back Jabhat al-Nusra
and the Islamic State.

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00:16:07.290 --> 00:16:11.040
Hersh also claims the military
even undermined a U.S. effort

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00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:12.720
to arm Syrian rebels in a bid

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00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:17.590
to prove to Assad it was serious about
helping him fight their common enemies.

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00:16:17.590 --> 00:16:19.130
At the Joint Chiefs’ behest,

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00:16:19.130 --> 00:16:21.760
a CIA weapons shipment
to the Syrian opposition

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00:16:21.760 --> 00:16:24.880
was allegedly downgraded
to include obsolete weapons.

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00:16:24.880 --> 00:16:28.790
Hersh says the Joint Chiefs’ maneuvering
was rooted in several concerns,

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00:16:28.790 --> 00:16:31.790
including the U.S. arming
of unvetted Syrian rebels

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00:16:31.790 --> 00:16:33.840
with jihadist ties, a belief

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00:16:33.840 --> 00:16:37.920
the administration was overly focused
on confronting Assad’s ally in Moscow,

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00:16:37.920 --> 00:16:40.980
and anger the White House
was unwilling to confront Turkey

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00:16:40.980 --> 00:16:44.810
and Saudi Arabia over their support
of extremist groups in Syria.

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00:16:44.810 --> 00:16:46.940
Hersh’s report
in the London Review of Books

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00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:49.140
follows his controversial story in May

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00:16:49.140 --> 00:16:51.300
challenging
the Obama administration’s account

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00:16:51.300 --> 00:16:53.150
of the killing of Osama bin Laden.

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00:16:53.150 --> 00:16:57.200
Like that story, his latest piece
relies heavily on a single source,

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00:16:57.200 --> 00:17:00.550
described as a "former senior adviser
to the Joint Chiefs."

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00:17:00.550 --> 00:17:04.320
And while critics have dismissed
both stories as conspiracy theories,

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00:17:04.320 --> 00:17:07.350
it turns out that key aspects
of the bin Laden report

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00:17:07.350 --> 00:17:09.280
have since been corroborated.

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00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:11.050
After the bin Laden story came out,

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00:17:11.050 --> 00:17:14.790
U.S. and Pakistani intelligence sources
confirmed Hersh’s reporting

331
00:17:14.790 --> 00:17:17.150
that the U.S.
discovered bin Laden’s location

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00:17:17.150 --> 00:17:19.730
when a Pakistani officer told the CIA,

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00:17:19.730 --> 00:17:23.690
and that the Pakistani government knew
all along where bin Laden was hiding.

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00:17:23.690 --> 00:17:25.460
For more, we’re joined by Seymour Hersh.

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00:17:25.460 --> 00:17:30.370
He won the Pulitzer Prize for exposing
the 1968 My Lai massacre in Vietnam,

336
00:17:30.370 --> 00:17:33.340
when U.S. forces
killed hundreds of civilians.

337
00:17:33.340 --> 00:17:37.870
In 2004, Sy Hersh broke
the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal.

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00:17:37.870 --> 00:17:38.920
His latest piece

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00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:42.770
in the London Review of Books
is headlined "Military to Military:

340
00:17:42.770 --> 00:17:44.570
US Intelligence Sharing

341
00:17:44.570 --> 00:17:46.220
in the Syrian War.

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00:17:46.220 --> 00:17:49.730
" Hersh is working on a study
of Dick Cheney’s vice presidency.

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00:17:49.730 --> 00:17:52.500
We welcome you back to Democracy
Now!, Sy Hersh.

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00:17:52.500 --> 00:17:57.280
Why don’t you lay out
this very controversial report

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00:17:57.280 --> 00:18:01.170
that you have just published
in the London Review of Books.

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00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:02.270
What did you find?

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00:18:02.870 --> 00:18:04.940
SEYMOUR HERSH: Well, it began, actually,
as I wrote,

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00:18:04.940 --> 00:18:09.480
with a very serious,
extensive assessment of our policy,

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00:18:09.480 --> 00:18:11.730
that was completed by June—

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00:18:11.730 --> 00:18:15.590
let’s say by middle
of 2013, two-and-a-half years ago.

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00:18:15.590 --> 00:18:19.370
It was a study done by the Joint Chiefs
and the Defense Intelligence Agency

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00:18:19.370 --> 00:18:22.920
that came to three sort of conclusions,

353
00:18:22.920 --> 00:18:25.570
that may seem obvious now
but were pretty interesting then.

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00:18:25.570 --> 00:18:28.480
One is that they said Assad
must stay, at least through—

355
00:18:29.040 --> 00:18:31.640
through the resolution
of the war, because,

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00:18:31.640 --> 00:18:32.770
as we saw in Libya,

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00:18:32.770 --> 00:18:33.900
once you get rid of a leader,

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00:18:33.900 --> 00:18:35.610
like Gaddafi—same,

359
00:18:35.610 --> 00:18:37.260
you can argue, in Iraq

360
00:18:37.260 --> 00:18:39.590
with the demise of Saddam Hussein—

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00:18:39.590 --> 00:18:40.910
chaos ensues.

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00:18:40.910 --> 00:18:42.610
The second—so that was an issue,

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00:18:42.610 --> 00:18:43.880
that there—

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00:18:43.880 --> 00:18:46.610
the point being, elections
at some point, certainly,

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00:18:46.610 --> 00:18:48.070
but for the short term,

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00:18:48.070 --> 00:18:50.210
while we’re still fighting,
he has to stay.

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00:18:50.210 --> 00:18:52.380
And that wasn’t the American position
then.

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00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:53.710
And, I would argue with you,

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00:18:53.710 --> 00:18:56.030
I still think the American position
is very muddled,

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00:18:56.030 --> 00:18:57.950
although they have seemed to soften it.

371
00:18:57.950 --> 00:19:01.500
Secondly, the other point
they made is that their investigation

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00:19:01.500 --> 00:19:05.700
showed this notion
of a moderate force just was a fiction,

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00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:09.350
was just a fantasy,
that most of the Free Syrian Army,

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00:19:09.350 --> 00:19:12.290
by the summer, by mid-2013,

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00:19:12.290 --> 00:19:15.300
were in some sort
of an understanding with al-Nusra, or,

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00:19:15.300 --> 00:19:18.000
as you put it, ISIL, the Islamic State.

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00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:19.940
There was a lot of back-and-forth going—

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00:19:19.940 --> 00:19:22.120
arms going into the Free Syrian Army

379
00:19:22.120 --> 00:19:24.520
and other moderates
were being peddled, sold,

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00:19:24.520 --> 00:19:27.830
or transferred
to the more extremist groups.

381
00:19:27.830 --> 00:19:30.450
And the third major finding
was about Turkey.

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00:19:30.450 --> 00:19:32.900
It said we simply
have to deal with the problem.

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00:19:32.900 --> 00:19:35.700
The Turkish government, led by Erdogan,

384
00:19:35.700 --> 00:19:37.530
was—had opened—

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00:19:37.530 --> 00:19:40.120
basically, his borders were open,

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00:19:40.120 --> 00:19:41.410
arms were flying.

387
00:19:41.410 --> 00:19:44.140
I had written about that earlier
for the London Review, the rat line.

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00:19:44.140 --> 00:19:48.400
There were arms
flying since 2012, covertly,

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00:19:48.400 --> 00:19:50.760
with the CIA’s support and the support
of the American government.

390
00:19:50.760 --> 00:19:55.120
Arms were coming from Tripoli
and other places in Benghazi,

391
00:19:55.120 --> 00:19:59.370
in Libya, going into Turkey
and then being moved across the line.

392
00:19:59.370 --> 00:20:03.630
And another interesting point
is that a lot of Chinese dissidents,

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00:20:03.630 --> 00:20:05.310
the Uyghurs, the Muslim Chinese

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00:20:05.310 --> 00:20:08.370
that are being pretty much hounded
by the Chinese, were also—

395
00:20:08.370 --> 00:20:10.120
another rat line existed.

396
00:20:10.120 --> 00:20:12.800
They were coming from China
into Kazakhstan,

397
00:20:12.800 --> 00:20:14.750
into Turkey and into Syria.

398
00:20:14.750 --> 00:20:18.320
So, this was a serious finding.

399
00:20:18.320 --> 00:20:21.690
It was not the first time
some of these points had been raised.

400
00:20:21.690 --> 00:20:23.880
And there was simply no echo.

401
00:20:23.880 --> 00:20:25.160
Once you pass this stuff

402
00:20:25.160 --> 00:20:27.540
on to the White House
or into the other agencies—

403
00:20:27.540 --> 00:20:31.190
the Defense Department
does this routinely.

404
00:20:31.190 --> 00:20:32.880
These are very highly secret.

405
00:20:32.880 --> 00:20:34.130
This study was composed

406
00:20:34.130 --> 00:20:37.080
of overhead satellite intelligence,
human intelligence,

407
00:20:37.080 --> 00:20:39.700
etc., very compartmentalized stuff.

408
00:20:39.700 --> 00:20:43.190
But it did go to the State Department
and to a lot of offices

409
00:20:43.190 --> 00:20:45.200
in the White House
and National Security Council.

410
00:20:45.200 --> 00:20:47.610
No response, no change in policy.

411
00:20:47.610 --> 00:20:52.920
So, at this point,
as I wrote, the Joint Chiefs,

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00:20:52.920 --> 00:20:56.870
then headed by an Army general
named Dempsey, Martin Dempsey,

413
00:20:56.870 --> 00:20:58.140
who has since retired,

414
00:20:58.830 --> 00:21:00.610
decided that they had—

415
00:21:00.610 --> 00:21:01.960
that there was a chance

416
00:21:01.960 --> 00:21:06.430
to do something about it without
directly contravening the policy.

417
00:21:06.430 --> 00:21:09.940
And that was simply
that we were aware that Germany,

418
00:21:09.940 --> 00:21:11.520
the German intelligence service,

419
00:21:11.520 --> 00:21:12.730
the German General Staff,

420
00:21:12.730 --> 00:21:15.270
had been involved
pretty closely with Bashar

421
00:21:15.270 --> 00:21:17.620
in terms of funneling intelligence.

422
00:21:17.620 --> 00:21:19.600
Russia—and it’s—

423
00:21:19.600 --> 00:21:21.780
a lot of people
will find this surprising,

424
00:21:21.780 --> 00:21:23.200
but the United States military,

425
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:25.540
the military
has had a very solid relationship

426
00:21:25.540 --> 00:21:27.150
with the leadership
of the Russian military

427
00:21:27.150 --> 00:21:30.220
since the fall
of the Soviet Union in '91.

428
00:21:30.220 --> 00:21:32.720
And General Dempsey, in particular,

429
00:21:32.720 --> 00:21:34.890
had a one-on-one relationship
with the general

430
00:21:34.890 --> 00:21:39.070
who now runs the military
for the Soviet Union.

431
00:21:39.070 --> 00:21:42.730
And so, we knew the Russians
and the Israelis

432
00:21:42.730 --> 00:21:46.790
were also involved in some back-channel
conversation with Syria,

433
00:21:46.790 --> 00:21:48.550
with the idea being Israel,

434
00:21:48.550 --> 00:21:50.810
sort of very on the margin on this,

435
00:21:50.810 --> 00:21:53.750
understood that if Bashar went,
what comes next

436
00:21:53.750 --> 00:21:55.210
would not be healthy for Israel.

437
00:21:55.210 --> 00:21:56.840
They share a border with Syria,

438
00:21:56.840 --> 00:22:00.950
and you don't want Islamic State
or al-Nusra or any of those groups

439
00:22:00.950 --> 00:22:02.370
to be that close to the Israelis.

440
00:22:02.370 --> 00:22:04.570
It would be a national security threat
for them.

441
00:22:04.570 --> 00:22:08.950
So there was a lot of people,
a lot of other services communicating,

442
00:22:08.950 --> 00:22:11.490
and so what the Joint Chiefs did
is they began to pass

443
00:22:11.490 --> 00:22:14.220
along some of this very good
strategic intelligence

444
00:22:14.220 --> 00:22:16.390
and technical intelligence we have—

445
00:22:16.390 --> 00:22:17.710
where the bad guys are,

446
00:22:17.710 --> 00:22:18.760
you can put it;

447
00:22:18.760 --> 00:22:21.610
what they might be
thinking; what information we had.

448
00:22:21.610 --> 00:22:23.430
That was passed not directly to Assad,

449
00:22:23.430 --> 00:22:26.980
but it was passed to the Germans,
to the Russians,

450
00:22:26.980 --> 00:22:29.210
through the Israelis, etc.

451
00:22:29.210 --> 00:22:32.450
The exact process is, of course,
way beyond my ken,

452
00:22:32.450 --> 00:22:35.020
but there was no question
that was a transmission point.

453
00:22:35.020 --> 00:22:38.370
The point being
that there was no direct contact,

454
00:22:38.370 --> 00:22:40.130
but the information
certainly got to him,

455
00:22:40.130 --> 00:22:42.690
and it certainly had an impact
on Saddam’s—

456
00:22:42.690 --> 00:22:44.350
the Syrian army’s ability

457
00:22:44.350 --> 00:22:48.400
to improve its position
by the end of the year, 2013.

458
00:22:48.400 --> 00:22:48.930
AMY GOODMAN: And talk—
SEYMOUR HERSH: Period.

459
00:22:48.930 --> 00:22:49.650
That’s the story.
Go ahead.

460
00:22:49.650 --> 00:22:52.790
AMY GOODMAN: Talk about the source
that you used for this story

461
00:22:52.790 --> 00:22:56.170
and the criticism
of your single-source method.

462
00:22:56.170 --> 00:22:59.170
SEYMOUR HERSH: Oh, my god.
Well, you know, as you know,

463
00:22:59.170 --> 00:23:01.670
it’s usually anonymous sources
you get criticized for.

464
00:23:01.670 --> 00:23:03.020
That’s always been traditionally,

465
00:23:03.020 --> 00:23:05.710
although any day in The New York Times
and Washington Post,

466
00:23:05.710 --> 00:23:06.840
they’re full of anonymous sources.

467
00:23:06.840 --> 00:23:08.370
That’s an easy way out.

468
00:23:08.370 --> 00:23:12.730
I wish I could tell you that I haven’t
been relying on this particular person

469
00:23:12.730 --> 00:23:15.070
for since 9/11, but I have been.

470
00:23:15.070 --> 00:23:18.040
And many of the stories
I wrote for The New Yorker

471
00:23:18.040 --> 00:23:20.240
about what was going on inside Iran,

472
00:23:20.240 --> 00:23:23.600
what was going—there was no bombs
inside Iraq, part

473
00:23:23.600 --> 00:23:25.530
of those early stories I was writing,

474
00:23:25.530 --> 00:23:29.290
all came from one
particularly well-informed person,

475
00:23:29.290 --> 00:23:31.130
who, as—you know,

476
00:23:31.130 --> 00:23:33.100
who, for a lot of reasons,
I can’t make public.

477
00:23:33.100 --> 00:23:35.360
One is them is this government
would prosecute him.

478
00:23:35.360 --> 00:23:37.410
So the idea that there’s one source,

479
00:23:37.410 --> 00:23:38.760
that’s—I’ve done that—

480
00:23:38.760 --> 00:23:42.250
I worked for The New York Times,
as you know, for eight or nine years,

481
00:23:42.250 --> 00:23:44.490
all during Watergate
and the Vietnam War years,

482
00:23:44.490 --> 00:23:47.720
and won many, many prizes
based on stories based on one source.

483
00:23:47.720 --> 00:23:49.700
I don’t know
what the public think goes on,

484
00:23:49.700 --> 00:23:51.130
but, you know,

485
00:23:51.130 --> 00:23:53.510
if you get a very good source

486
00:23:53.510 --> 00:23:55.920
who over many years
has been totally reliable,

487
00:23:55.920 --> 00:23:57.320
I’m not troubled by it at all.

488
00:23:57.320 --> 00:24:02.130
And neither—you know, the London Review,
as many in America know,

489
00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:06.310
is a very,
very seriously edited magazine,

490
00:24:06.310 --> 00:24:10.560
who did the same amount
of very intense fact checking

491
00:24:10.560 --> 00:24:12.180
as happened
when I worked at The New Yorker,

492
00:24:12.180 --> 00:24:13.910
which is famous for its fact checking,

493
00:24:13.910 --> 00:24:17.060
and the editing
was certainly as competent and as good

494
00:24:17.060 --> 00:24:18.130
as you get in The New Yorker.

495
00:24:18.130 --> 00:24:19.670
I’m very happy working for them.

496
00:24:19.670 --> 00:24:25.570
And so, it’s not as if I’m not put
to the same question

497
00:24:25.570 --> 00:24:29.150
that you’re putting, that critics
may put, by the editors of the magazine.

498
00:24:29.150 --> 00:24:30.800
And they get—they have direct contact.

499
00:24:30.800 --> 00:24:32.140
They know who the person is.

500
00:24:32.140 --> 00:24:33.280
They have discussions with him,

501
00:24:33.280 --> 00:24:34.830
and with me not present.

502
00:24:34.830 --> 00:24:36.660
All of these standards are met.

503
00:24:37.210 --> 00:24:37.570
AMY GOODMAN: Well—
SEYMOUR HERSH: Yes, go ahead.

504
00:24:37.570 --> 00:24:39.950
AMY GOODMAN: Let me share with you
some of the criticism of your piece—

505
00:24:39.950 --> 00:24:40.280
SEYMOUR HERSH: Oh, oh, spare me.
AMY GOODMAN: —

506
00:24:40.280 --> 00:24:43.040
like Max Fisher’s writing in Vox—

507
00:24:43.040 --> 00:24:45.320
but let me share it with our audience,
as well—

508
00:24:45.320 --> 00:24:46.820
who, you know, talks about your

509
00:24:46.820 --> 00:24:50.580
relying entirely on one unnamed source
for your principal allegation

510
00:24:50.580 --> 00:24:54.030
that U.S. defense officials
bypassed the Obama administration

511
00:24:54.030 --> 00:24:55.760
and shared intelligence with allies,

512
00:24:55.760 --> 00:24:58.280
who subsequently shared it
with the Assad regime.

513
00:24:58.280 --> 00:24:59.810
Fisher goes on to conclude,

514
00:24:59.810 --> 00:25:04.160
quote, "We are required to believe
that the senior-most leaders

515
00:25:04.160 --> 00:25:07.470
of our military one day in 2013

516
00:25:07.470 --> 00:25:12.650
decided to completely transform how they
behave and transgress every norm

517
00:25:12.650 --> 00:25:17.430
they have in a mass act of treason,
despite never having done so before,

518
00:25:17.430 --> 00:25:19.760
and then promptly went back
to normal this September

519
00:25:19.760 --> 00:25:21.560
when Dempsey retired."

520
00:25:21.560 --> 00:25:22.810
Can you respond to that?

521
00:25:23.470 --> 00:25:24.500
SEYMOUR HERSH: Well, there’s—

522
00:25:25.730 --> 00:25:28.040
it’s so many instances

523
00:25:28.040 --> 00:25:30.330
where the military
disagree with a president.

524
00:25:30.330 --> 00:25:33.000
We’ve seen this in World War II,
MacArthur.

525
00:25:33.000 --> 00:25:35.500
I mean, the idea
that the Joint Chiefs of Staff—

526
00:25:35.500 --> 00:25:37.180
let me just say, in general,

527
00:25:37.180 --> 00:25:38.620
when you’re at that level,

528
00:25:38.620 --> 00:25:39.810
at the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

529
00:25:39.810 --> 00:25:41.500
chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

530
00:25:41.500 --> 00:25:44.250
you make an oath of office not
to the president of the United States,

531
00:25:44.250 --> 00:25:45.580
but to the Constitution.

532
00:25:45.580 --> 00:25:48.250
And there’s been many times
the military objects.

533
00:25:48.250 --> 00:25:53.590
There were times just in the last couple
of years, in congressional testimony,

534
00:25:53.590 --> 00:25:57.500
that General Dempsey has made it clear
he disagrees with the policy.

535
00:25:57.500 --> 00:26:01.000
Specifically about some of the matters
that were raised in that article—

536
00:26:01.000 --> 00:26:02.270
and I did look at it, of course—

537
00:26:03.380 --> 00:26:04.630
is that,

538
00:26:05.400 --> 00:26:08.390
for example, Dempsey agreed in testimony

539
00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:11.640
that we should arm
the moderates—the opposition, rather.

540
00:26:11.640 --> 00:26:13.460
And, in fact, what he agreed to—

541
00:26:13.460 --> 00:26:17.200
this is with the head
of the CIA, Leon Panetta, at the time—

542
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.680
when this discussion
came up of arming dissident groups,

543
00:26:20.680 --> 00:26:24.840
opposition groups inside Syria,
Panetta and the chairman

544
00:26:24.840 --> 00:26:27.500
both made a point
of saying "vetted groups."

545
00:26:27.500 --> 00:26:28.770
They said only those groups

546
00:26:28.770 --> 00:26:31.140
we really know are reliable,

547
00:26:31.140 --> 00:26:38.310
and not wackos and not jihadist groups
that want to exclude anybody

548
00:26:38.310 --> 00:26:42.670
except those who share their particular
beliefs in the future state,

549
00:26:42.670 --> 00:26:44.040
if they were to take it over.

550
00:26:44.040 --> 00:26:47.640
So there’s a lot of—there’s a lot
of contradictory evidence about it.

551
00:26:47.640 --> 00:26:51.000
And there are—

552
00:26:51.000 --> 00:26:54.440
there certainly can be
more sophisticated arguments to make

553
00:26:54.440 --> 00:26:56.210
than this has never happened before.

554
00:26:56.210 --> 00:27:00.090
This is certainly unusual
that, in a time like this,

555
00:27:01.290 --> 00:27:11.560
the military would give information
to allies, our allies, at their request,

556
00:27:11.560 --> 00:27:13.480
that differ from the official policy.

557
00:27:13.480 --> 00:27:15.600
Sure, that’s a very complicated thing,

558
00:27:15.600 --> 00:27:17.760
and it was a tough thing to do,
but it happened.

559
00:27:17.760 --> 00:27:19.570
AMY GOODMAN: Was there
direct communication

560
00:27:19.570 --> 00:27:21.670
between the United States and Syria?

561
00:27:23.030 --> 00:27:26.200
SEYMOUR HERSH: I’m going to stand
by what I wrote in the article.

562
00:27:27.670 --> 00:27:29.150
AMY GOODMAN: Which was?

563
00:27:29.150 --> 00:27:31.630
SEYMOUR HERSH: I wrote in the article
that there was no direct contact,

564
00:27:31.630 --> 00:27:34.440
that the whole purpose
was to use the cutouts,

565
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:35.940
that there was no attempt

566
00:27:35.940 --> 00:27:41.690
to directly engage
with Bashar al-Assad or his regime.

567
00:27:41.690 --> 00:27:42.950
AMY GOODMAN: And what—
SEYMOUR HERSH: But there—yes?

568
00:27:42.950 --> 00:27:44.760
AMY GOODMAN: What did the U.S.
get in return?

569
00:27:46.490 --> 00:27:48.210
SEYMOUR HERSH: Well,
there was an understanding,

570
00:27:48.210 --> 00:27:50.030
obviously, conveyed by our allies.

571
00:27:50.030 --> 00:27:52.260
And the understanding was
that we were going to give this stuff,

572
00:27:52.260 --> 00:27:54.220
and if Bashar would, among other things,

573
00:27:54.220 --> 00:27:56.930
agree to an election,
a monitored election,

574
00:27:56.930 --> 00:27:58.780
once the war was over,

575
00:27:58.780 --> 00:28:00.590
and presumably he had re-established—

576
00:28:00.590 --> 00:28:01.880
you know,

577
00:28:01.880 --> 00:28:06.890
Bashar—there’s a lot of talk
about the success of the Islamic groups,

578
00:28:06.890 --> 00:28:10.550
but Bashar right now,
although he doesn’t control 100 percent—

579
00:28:10.550 --> 00:28:11.950
much less, 60—

580
00:28:11.950 --> 00:28:14.130
I’m not sure of the number,
but it was more than 50 percent,

581
00:28:14.130 --> 00:28:15.430
less than—

582
00:28:15.430 --> 00:28:19.390
the opposition groups controlled
large swaths, 30 percent, 40 percent.

583
00:28:19.390 --> 00:28:20.970
But he does control as much as—

584
00:28:20.970 --> 00:28:24.150
I’ve seen estimates
of 86 percent of the population.

585
00:28:24.150 --> 00:28:27.160
And the notion that everybody in Syria
despises him, etc.,

586
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:28.180
all these things you hear,

587
00:28:28.180 --> 00:28:29.320
that’s not true.

588
00:28:29.320 --> 00:28:30.970
He has a lot of native support,

589
00:28:30.970 --> 00:28:31.990
and even from Muslims,

590
00:28:31.990 --> 00:28:36.250
because every Muslim in Syria is not
a Wahhabi or a Salafist, an extremist.

591
00:28:36.250 --> 00:28:39.730
Many are very moderate people
who believe they would be in trouble

592
00:28:39.730 --> 00:28:41.010
if the Islamic force,

593
00:28:41.010 --> 00:28:43.650
the Islamic groups, came into power,

594
00:28:43.650 --> 00:28:46.390
because they would go and seek out
those fellow Muslims

595
00:28:46.390 --> 00:28:48.670
that don’t agree
with their extreme views.

596
00:28:48.670 --> 00:28:52.030
So he does have an awful lot of support,
more than most people think.

597
00:28:52.030 --> 00:28:54.040
This is not to say
he’s a good guy or bad guy.

598
00:28:54.040 --> 00:28:55.610
We’re just talking about reality.

599
00:28:55.610 --> 00:28:57.320
And don’t forget, we are a country that,

600
00:28:57.320 --> 00:29:01.810
in World War II, a year
after the Russians had done—

601
00:29:01.810 --> 00:29:03.050
were in a pact with Hitler,

602
00:29:03.050 --> 00:29:05.220
we joined with the Russians
against Hitler.

603
00:29:05.220 --> 00:29:07.110
So, you know, you sometimes overlook—

604
00:29:08.330 --> 00:29:10.370
one of the points also made by—

605
00:29:10.370 --> 00:29:13.360
in this article
is this incredible hostility

606
00:29:13.360 --> 00:29:16.020
towards Russia and these allegations,

607
00:29:16.020 --> 00:29:17.330
time and time again,

608
00:29:17.330 --> 00:29:21.750
that Russia is not really serious
about going after the Islamic State.

609
00:29:21.750 --> 00:29:25.290
And there—even just in the debate
over at the U.N.,

610
00:29:25.290 --> 00:29:29.460
a statistic suggesting that 80 percent
of the Russian attacks

611
00:29:29.460 --> 00:29:30.640
have nothing to do with ISIS,

612
00:29:30.640 --> 00:29:33.500
but they’re attacking
the ISIS opposition, the moderates.

613
00:29:33.500 --> 00:29:35.580
And you just have to say to yourself,

614
00:29:35.580 --> 00:29:38.680
"Well, why then did ISIS bomb,

615
00:29:38.680 --> 00:29:40.800
as we all believe and the Russians
believe,

616
00:29:40.800 --> 00:29:42.910
destroy a Russian airliner?

617
00:29:42.910 --> 00:29:45.560
Why was ISIS upset with Russia,

618
00:29:45.560 --> 00:29:49.420
if Russia was basically
bombing their enemy, the moderates?"

619
00:29:49.420 --> 00:29:50.580
It doesn’t—it just—

620
00:29:50.580 --> 00:29:52.570
the logic
in some of the American thinking

621
00:29:52.570 --> 00:29:53.930
and the thinking
around the world on this,

622
00:29:53.930 --> 00:29:55.510
it doesn’t make much sense to me.

623
00:29:55.510 --> 00:29:57.440
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to break
and then come back to this discussion.

624
00:29:57.440 --> 00:29:59.990
Sy Hersh is our guest,
the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist.

625
00:29:59.990 --> 00:30:02.180
His latest piece
is in the London Review of Books;

626
00:30:02.180 --> 00:30:04.040
it’s headlined "Military to Military:

627
00:30:04.040 --> 00:30:07.090
US Intelligence Sharing
in the Syrian War."

628
00:30:07.090 --> 00:30:58.610
This is Democracy Now! Back in a minute.

629
00:30:58.610 --> 00:31:24.750
[break]

630
00:31:24.750 --> 00:31:26.840
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Pete Seeger singing

631
00:31:26.840 --> 00:31:28.460
"If I Had a Hammer."

632
00:31:28.460 --> 00:31:30.440
And in our next segment,

633
00:31:30.440 --> 00:31:34.160
we’ll be talking about the U.S.
government spying on Pete Seeger

634
00:31:34.160 --> 00:31:36.620
for close to 30 years.

635
00:31:36.620 --> 00:31:41.310
New documents have been released
by the government, over 1,700 of them.

636
00:31:41.310 --> 00:31:43.550
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

637
00:31:43.550 --> 00:31:45.110
The War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman.

638
00:31:45.110 --> 00:31:48.920
Our guest is Seymour Hersh,
the Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist.

639
00:31:48.920 --> 00:31:52.470
Well, during Saturday’s
Democratic debate, ABC host David Muir

640
00:31:52.470 --> 00:31:54.530
asked former Secretary
of State Hillary Clinton

641
00:31:54.530 --> 00:31:57.180
about Senator Bernie Sanders’ plan
for Syria.

642
00:31:58.220 --> 00:31:59.970
DAVID MUIR: We heard from the senator
just this week

643
00:31:59.970 --> 00:32:03.200
that we must put aside the issue
of how quickly we get rid of Assad,

644
00:32:03.200 --> 00:32:05.960
and come together with countries,
including Russia and Iran,

645
00:32:05.960 --> 00:32:07.740
to destroy ISIS first.

646
00:32:07.740 --> 00:32:09.150
Is he wrong?

647
00:32:09.150 --> 00:32:10.940
HILLARY CLINTON: I think
we’re missing the point here.

648
00:32:10.940 --> 00:32:14.010
We are doing both at the same time.
DAVID MUIR: But that’s what he’s saying:

649
00:32:14.010 --> 00:32:16.460
We should put that aside for now
and go after ISIS.

650
00:32:16.460 --> 00:32:17.560
HILLARY CLINTON: Well,
I don’t agree with that,

651
00:32:17.560 --> 00:32:20.890
because we will not get the support
on the ground in Syria

652
00:32:20.890 --> 00:32:23.210
to dislodge ISIS

653
00:32:23.210 --> 00:32:26.220
if the fighters there
who are not associated with ISIS,

654
00:32:26.220 --> 00:32:28.970
but whose principal goal
is getting rid of Assad,

655
00:32:28.970 --> 00:32:33.800
don’t believe there is a political,
diplomatic channel that is ongoing.

656
00:32:33.800 --> 00:32:35.140
We now have that.

657
00:32:35.140 --> 00:32:37.040
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: Secretary Clinton
is right.

658
00:32:37.040 --> 00:32:38.780
This is a complicated issue.

659
00:32:38.780 --> 00:32:40.500
I don’t think anyone
has a magical solution.

660
00:32:40.500 --> 00:32:41.950
But this is what I do believe.

661
00:32:41.950 --> 00:32:44.410
Yes, of course,
Assad is a terrible dictator.

662
00:32:44.410 --> 00:32:47.270
But I think we have got to get
our foreign policies

663
00:32:47.780 --> 00:32:49.870
and our priorities right.

664
00:32:49.870 --> 00:32:54.430
The immediate—it is not Assad
who is attacking the United States.

665
00:32:55.070 --> 00:32:56.510
It is ISIS.

666
00:32:57.060 --> 00:33:01.020
And ISIS is attacking France
and attacking Russian airliners.

667
00:33:01.020 --> 00:33:05.860
The major priority right now, in terms
of our foreign and military policy,

668
00:33:05.860 --> 00:33:09.030
should be the destruction of ISIS.
DAVID MUIR: Governor O’Malley?

669
00:33:09.030 --> 00:33:12.870
MARTIN O’MALLEY: We shouldn’t be
the ones declaring that Assad must go.

670
00:33:12.870 --> 00:33:15.480
Where did it ever say
in the Constitution,

671
00:33:15.480 --> 00:33:18.760
where is it written that it’s the job
of the United States of America

672
00:33:18.760 --> 00:33:20.180
or its secretary of state

673
00:33:20.180 --> 00:33:22.480
to determine when dictators have to go?

674
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:24.220
We have a role to play in this world,

675
00:33:24.220 --> 00:33:25.430
but it is not the world—

676
00:33:25.430 --> 00:33:29.900
the role of traveling the world
looking for new monsters to destroy.

677
00:33:29.900 --> 00:33:32.330
AMY GOODMAN: That’s
former Governor Martin O’Malley,

678
00:33:32.330 --> 00:33:33.870
Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders

679
00:33:33.870 --> 00:33:36.540
and Hillary Clinton,
all vying for the presidency.

680
00:33:36.540 --> 00:33:38.710
Seymour Hersh, your response,

681
00:33:38.710 --> 00:33:43.030
and how these different views ally
with either President Obama

682
00:33:43.030 --> 00:33:44.530
or the Joint Chiefs of Staff,

683
00:33:44.530 --> 00:33:45.930
as you’ve laid out in your piece,

684
00:33:45.930 --> 00:33:47.180
"Military to Military"?

685
00:33:47.720 --> 00:33:50.000
SEYMOUR HERSH: Look,
clearly what Mr. O’Malley

686
00:33:50.000 --> 00:33:52.600
and Bernie Sanders said would be—

687
00:33:52.600 --> 00:33:56.320
would ring very solidly
with the Joint Chiefs.

688
00:33:56.320 --> 00:34:00.370
They would be in great distress
about what Hillary Clinton said,

689
00:34:01.010 --> 00:34:04.590
because I think—you know,

690
00:34:05.970 --> 00:34:08.820
the fact is
that if you really want to look at it,

691
00:34:09.530 --> 00:34:11.560
Bashar is still the president of Syria.

692
00:34:12.410 --> 00:34:15.990
The Russians are bombing in Syria
at his invitation.

693
00:34:15.990 --> 00:34:18.720
We are bombing in Syria
without his invitation.

694
00:34:18.720 --> 00:34:21.070
And so it’s hard sometimes
for Americans to think

695
00:34:21.070 --> 00:34:24.760
that we’re not always on the side
of the angels on legal issues,

696
00:34:24.760 --> 00:34:28.130
but we’re certainly,
by any normal standard of—you know,

697
00:34:28.130 --> 00:34:31.080
if there was a normal standard
of international conduct,

698
00:34:31.890 --> 00:34:36.680
we would be the bad guys in that,
just in terms of legalities.

699
00:34:36.680 --> 00:34:38.610
We’re not invited in. We’re doing it.

700
00:34:38.610 --> 00:34:40.210
Obviously, there’s a lot of agreement,

701
00:34:40.210 --> 00:34:41.350
and there’s a lot of coordination

702
00:34:41.350 --> 00:34:43.400
going on with all the bombing,
much more than we know.

703
00:34:43.400 --> 00:34:45.490
The Syrians are certainly
coordinating with the Russians,

704
00:34:45.490 --> 00:34:47.340
and we’re certainly
coordinating with everybody.

705
00:34:47.340 --> 00:34:51.000
No pilot—no pilot from any country
is going to fly into a combat zone

706
00:34:51.000 --> 00:34:54.200
without knowing exactly who’s
there and whether it’s safe or not.

707
00:34:54.200 --> 00:34:57.950
So, there’s much more cooperation
going on, even now, than you can see.

708
00:34:59.550 --> 00:35:02.600
But the idea—you know,

709
00:35:02.600 --> 00:35:06.290
and in your opening, you mentioned
that we seem to have moderated our view.

710
00:35:06.290 --> 00:35:08.830
And I think those are words
that are being said,

711
00:35:08.830 --> 00:35:11.890
but the reality is, we still always say,

712
00:35:11.890 --> 00:35:13.100
"Well, we don’t—we’re not saying—

713
00:35:13.100 --> 00:35:14.650
we’re not talking about regime change

714
00:35:14.650 --> 00:35:16.130
now." You’d think that maybe—

715
00:35:16.130 --> 00:35:17.830
AMY GOODMAN: Well, didn’t Kerry
meet with Putin

716
00:35:17.830 --> 00:35:20.140
and then completely
reverse the position?

717
00:35:20.140 --> 00:35:22.250
SEYMOUR HERSH: No, not quite,
because the position was—

718
00:35:22.250 --> 00:35:23.310
if you read the transcripts,

719
00:35:23.310 --> 00:35:25.750
there was a—
he had a news conference or briefing

720
00:35:25.750 --> 00:35:28.250
after the meeting with Lavrov,

721
00:35:28.250 --> 00:35:29.520
the foreign minister of Russia,

722
00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:31.550
in which Kerry said—it’s always this.

723
00:35:31.550 --> 00:35:32.760
The caveat is always:

724
00:35:32.760 --> 00:35:34.600
"But we don’t think he can be in power

725
00:35:34.600 --> 00:35:36.680
while these negotiations can go on.

726
00:35:36.680 --> 00:35:39.280
He won’t be able to preside
over the negotiations."

727
00:35:39.280 --> 00:35:41.800
In other words,
he’s such a dissident force

728
00:35:41.800 --> 00:35:44.750
in this that we can’t have
a legitimate negotiation

729
00:35:44.750 --> 00:35:46.000
with various groups,

730
00:35:46.000 --> 00:35:47.910
some of which we believe are moderate,

731
00:35:47.910 --> 00:35:50.700
against all—most
of the intelligence that’s available.

732
00:35:50.700 --> 00:35:51.860
We still—the United States,

733
00:35:51.860 --> 00:35:54.700
the president still believes
there are moderates there to work with.

734
00:35:54.700 --> 00:35:56.200
And there’s just not much—you know,

735
00:35:56.200 --> 00:35:58.580
the Joint Chiefs certainly don’t think
there’s any intelligence for it,

736
00:35:58.580 --> 00:36:00.630
nor does the DIA.

737
00:36:00.630 --> 00:36:02.580
In fact, one of the things
I did in this article

738
00:36:03.400 --> 00:36:05.430
is I ended up talking to Michael Flynn,

739
00:36:05.430 --> 00:36:10.610
who had been director of the DIA
from 2012 to 2014, at the time

740
00:36:10.610 --> 00:36:12.770
the assessment I wrote about came out.

741
00:36:12.770 --> 00:36:15.720
And Flynn was careful not to talk
about a highly classified paper.

742
00:36:15.720 --> 00:36:19.320
But he did say, "I can just tell you
that if the American public

743
00:36:19.320 --> 00:36:23.450
saw all the papers
that were going into the government,

744
00:36:23.450 --> 00:36:24.660
in from us, the DIA,

745
00:36:24.660 --> 00:36:27.040
the intelligence into the Pentagon,
into the White House,

746
00:36:27.040 --> 00:36:28.520
they would be very upset."

747
00:36:28.520 --> 00:36:29.840
And he also said,

748
00:36:30.800 --> 00:36:33.530
in an interview
with Der Spiegel a week or so ago,

749
00:36:33.530 --> 00:36:35.620
maybe about two or three weeks ago now—

750
00:36:35.620 --> 00:36:37.060
it was published last week—

751
00:36:37.060 --> 00:36:40.000
he also just didn’t understand
why we were fighting the Russians.

752
00:36:40.000 --> 00:36:42.840
Why not let the Russians come in?
What was the concern?

753
00:36:42.840 --> 00:36:46.080
The Russians’ concern is not
about establishing a new world order;

754
00:36:46.080 --> 00:36:48.290
their concern is terrorism, primarily.

755
00:36:48.290 --> 00:36:50.200
They have a big terrorism problem.

756
00:36:50.200 --> 00:36:52.000
There’s no question the leadership—

757
00:36:52.000 --> 00:36:55.970
many of the leadership modes or groups

758
00:36:55.970 --> 00:36:57.500
inside the ISIL,

759
00:36:57.500 --> 00:37:01.850
or the Islamic State,
originated from the Chechnyan war.

760
00:37:01.850 --> 00:37:03.150
They had two wars with Chechnya—

761
00:37:03.150 --> 00:37:05.450
one of them went 10 years—brutal wars,

762
00:37:05.450 --> 00:37:07.560
in which Russia did horrible things,

763
00:37:07.560 --> 00:37:11.490
the same sort of stuff
that Bashar al-Assad did,

764
00:37:11.490 --> 00:37:12.660
and one could argue that—

765
00:37:12.660 --> 00:37:15.790
same things we did to Japan
at the end of World War II,

766
00:37:15.790 --> 00:37:18.920
when you see your country is at stake.

767
00:37:18.920 --> 00:37:22.390
People do very rough things
in all-out war.

768
00:37:22.390 --> 00:37:25.120
And so, all of these issues

769
00:37:25.120 --> 00:37:30.310
seem to me to be not fully understood
by Mrs. Clinton.

770
00:37:30.310 --> 00:37:31.910
But, you know, it’s early in—

771
00:37:32.650 --> 00:37:34.060
I think it’s—

772
00:37:34.060 --> 00:37:36.660
my guess is she’s obviously going
to be the candidate.

773
00:37:36.660 --> 00:37:37.670
And obviously,

774
00:37:37.670 --> 00:37:39.030
she’s a very—you know,

775
00:37:39.030 --> 00:37:41.340
she’s as smart as they come,

776
00:37:41.340 --> 00:37:43.480
and I would think she maybe will be—

777
00:37:43.480 --> 00:37:44.650
I hope she’ll get

778
00:37:44.650 --> 00:37:47.090
to change her views as time goes on.

779
00:37:48.760 --> 00:37:49.990
AMY GOODMAN: What is your assessment
of her

780
00:37:49.990 --> 00:37:51.830
as secretary of state
in dealing with Syria?

781
00:37:51.830 --> 00:37:53.430
I mean, she’s laid out
what her views are.

782
00:37:53.430 --> 00:37:54.950
She wants Assad out.

783
00:37:56.130 --> 00:37:57.270
SEYMOUR HERSH: Well, I think—

784
00:37:57.270 --> 00:37:59.470
my only thing is I think
there should be learning curves

785
00:37:59.470 --> 00:38:00.750
for people with that kind of power.

786
00:38:00.750 --> 00:38:02.180
And I think what happened in Libya

787
00:38:02.180 --> 00:38:04.060
should have instructed anybody
in the government,

788
00:38:04.060 --> 00:38:05.540
including the president,

789
00:38:05.540 --> 00:38:08.230
that when you depose a dictator,

790
00:38:08.230 --> 00:38:09.960
you have to be aware
of what’s going to come next,

791
00:38:09.960 --> 00:38:12.480
and you have to think long and hard
about what you’re doing.

792
00:38:12.480 --> 00:38:17.590
And I think, by any standard,
the getting rid of Gaddafi

793
00:38:17.590 --> 00:38:19.380
has proven to be a horrible event.

794
00:38:19.380 --> 00:38:22.560
It’s increased the spread
of the Islamic State

795
00:38:22.560 --> 00:38:24.450
in Africa, North Africa,

796
00:38:24.450 --> 00:38:28.780
increased their access
to weapons and to money, etc.

797
00:38:28.780 --> 00:38:30.310
And it’s been a terrible—

798
00:38:30.310 --> 00:38:32.130
it was a terrible decision.

799
00:38:32.130 --> 00:38:38.180
And we don’t—we seem not to have learned
enough from it, because—you know,

800
00:38:38.180 --> 00:38:39.530
if I’m Putin,

801
00:38:39.530 --> 00:38:40.980
and I’m worried sick about—

802
00:38:40.980 --> 00:38:43.720
and forget
about what happened in Ukraine.

803
00:38:43.720 --> 00:38:45.460
It’s terrible. I’m not defending Putin.

804
00:38:45.460 --> 00:38:48.210
I’m just saying, from his point of view
about international terrorism,

805
00:38:48.810 --> 00:38:52.270
he’s seen the United States
attack one secular leader,

806
00:38:52.270 --> 00:38:53.520
Gaddafi,

807
00:38:54.120 --> 00:38:57.050
destroy another secular leader,
Saddam Hussein—

808
00:38:57.050 --> 00:38:58.730
no question that he was—

809
00:38:58.730 --> 00:39:02.320
he was not interested in the spread
of international terrorism.

810
00:39:03.490 --> 00:39:07.300
Bashar, the same way,
was always a secular state.

811
00:39:07.300 --> 00:39:10.530
There was a tremendous amount of freedom
for all sorts of minorities and sects,

812
00:39:10.530 --> 00:39:11.960
and people don’t appreciate—

813
00:39:11.960 --> 00:39:15.410
all the minorities
can only look to him for safety.

814
00:39:15.410 --> 00:39:18.520
They certainly can’t look
to the international Islamic State

815
00:39:19.050 --> 00:39:20.390
for any sort of solace,

816
00:39:20.390 --> 00:39:23.150
in case
they win out and take over the country.

817
00:39:23.150 --> 00:39:25.370
And so, if I’m Russia,

818
00:39:25.370 --> 00:39:28.420
I’m watching the destruction
of three Syrian—

819
00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:31.730
or attempted destruction
in Syria of three secular states

820
00:39:31.730 --> 00:39:33.960
and wondering what the hell
is America up to.

821
00:39:33.960 --> 00:39:37.060
They join with us in the worry
about international terrorism.

822
00:39:37.060 --> 00:39:39.950
And I can’t tell you how many people
I know inside the military

823
00:39:39.950 --> 00:39:44.220
and the intelligence community,
as loyal to America as you want to be,

824
00:39:44.220 --> 00:39:47.290
think our first move after 9/11 probably
should have been to Moscow

825
00:39:47.290 --> 00:39:49.430
and to say, "What can you
tell us about terrorism?

826
00:39:49.430 --> 00:39:52.140
We’ve got it right here,
and you’ve had it for a long time.

827
00:39:52.140 --> 00:39:54.730
Let’s talk about it."
You have to separate some issues.

828
00:39:55.270 --> 00:39:57.080
But we don’t seem to be very good.

829
00:39:57.080 --> 00:40:00.500
We seem to live in a world
of propaganda and likes and dislikes

830
00:40:00.500 --> 00:40:02.020
above our own national interests.

831
00:40:02.820 --> 00:40:04.130
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go back to your—

832
00:40:04.130 --> 00:40:07.020
the key point
that you make in this piece.

833
00:40:07.020 --> 00:40:08.960
It’s a kind of coup policy,

834
00:40:08.960 --> 00:40:12.580
the Joint Chiefs of Staff
conducting a very different policy

835
00:40:12.580 --> 00:40:14.570
than President Obama was espousing.

836
00:40:14.570 --> 00:40:17.160
What has the White House—
how have they responded to your piece,

837
00:40:17.160 --> 00:40:18.410
if they have?

838
00:40:19.090 --> 00:40:20.790
SEYMOUR HERSH: I don’t think
they want to hear about it.

839
00:40:20.790 --> 00:40:22.330
He’s in Hawaii.

840
00:40:22.330 --> 00:40:24.650
The mainstream press is sort of like,

841
00:40:24.650 --> 00:40:25.670
you know, "What?

842
00:40:26.830 --> 00:40:27.870
This can’t be.

843
00:40:27.870 --> 00:40:29.130
It’s an anonymous source."

844
00:40:29.130 --> 00:40:31.620
And you know the drill.

845
00:40:31.620 --> 00:40:34.790
We’ve been—you and I have been talking
since 9/11.

846
00:40:34.790 --> 00:40:39.120
Every time I do a story,
one of the things we talk about is—

847
00:40:39.120 --> 00:40:40.890
one of the reason
I’m delighted to go on your show

848
00:40:40.890 --> 00:40:43.390
is, at least here I can have
more than three or four sentences.

849
00:40:43.390 --> 00:40:44.640
AMY GOODMAN: And General Dempsey,

850
00:40:44.640 --> 00:40:47.460
him leaving,
what this means for their policy?

851
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:51.180
Or has, overall, the policy shifted
to what the Joint Chiefs of Staff

852
00:40:51.180 --> 00:40:52.790
under Dempsey wanted, to begin with?

853
00:40:53.900 --> 00:40:55.940
SEYMOUR HERSH: There’s a new leadership
in the Pentagon.

854
00:40:55.940 --> 00:40:57.040
And both General—

855
00:40:57.040 --> 00:40:58.610
the new chairman, Dunford,

856
00:40:58.610 --> 00:41:00.930
has testified a couple of times—

857
00:41:00.930 --> 00:41:03.200
I write about this at the end
of my piece—

858
00:41:03.200 --> 00:41:06.200
and following the party line totally,

859
00:41:06.200 --> 00:41:07.810
which is that Russia doesn’t—

860
00:41:07.810 --> 00:41:10.270
is not bombing any Islamic States,

861
00:41:10.270 --> 00:41:12.950
and that there are moderates,

862
00:41:12.950 --> 00:41:15.800
and we can pull it out
with the moderates.

863
00:41:15.800 --> 00:41:18.200
The new secretary of defense
is on the same point.

864
00:41:18.200 --> 00:41:20.610
Ash Carter has said a few times,
in testimony,

865
00:41:20.610 --> 00:41:22.630
and he gave a speech
at Harvard the other week,

866
00:41:22.630 --> 00:41:23.940
in which he basically said—

867
00:41:23.940 --> 00:41:25.400
followed the party line—

868
00:41:25.400 --> 00:41:27.680
or followed the president’s line
dutifully.

869
00:41:27.680 --> 00:41:29.610
And I guess that’s—you know,

870
00:41:30.350 --> 00:41:31.800
if you want to be in that job,

871
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:33.080
you have to do so.

872
00:41:33.080 --> 00:41:36.570
And it’s sort of interesting to me
that at some point

873
00:41:37.220 --> 00:41:42.640
some other military leaders decided
that they couldn’t follow the policy,

874
00:41:42.640 --> 00:41:44.380
because it was nonsensical,

875
00:41:44.380 --> 00:41:45.910
and did something about it.

876
00:41:45.910 --> 00:41:49.490
I don’t think there was any attempt here
to undermine the government.

877
00:41:49.490 --> 00:41:51.030
I think the attempt of everything

878
00:41:51.030 --> 00:41:55.830
that was done by the Joint Chiefs
and other members in the military,

879
00:41:55.830 --> 00:42:00.130
in terms of trying to do something to—

880
00:42:00.130 --> 00:42:02.910
it was really an attempt to change—

881
00:42:02.910 --> 00:42:04.420
make a midcourse correction

882
00:42:04.420 --> 00:42:07.060
in a policy
they saw that was deadly wrong.

883
00:42:07.600 --> 00:42:09.160
AMY GOODMAN: Last question about Turkey:

884
00:42:09.160 --> 00:42:10.760
The role it has played?

885
00:42:12.360 --> 00:42:15.990
SEYMOUR HERSH: This is
a national disgrace that we’re not able—

886
00:42:15.990 --> 00:42:17.680
and this president—I think it—

887
00:42:17.680 --> 00:42:19.180
I just don’t know why he—

888
00:42:19.180 --> 00:42:21.860
he just, in the last—

889
00:42:21.860 --> 00:42:23.610
after the climate summit,

890
00:42:23.610 --> 00:42:27.300
he literally has had
a private meeting with Erdogan—

891
00:42:27.300 --> 00:42:28.500
AMY GOODMAN: Erdogan.

892
00:42:28.500 --> 00:42:32.960
SEYMOUR HERSH: —the head of Turkey,
Erdogan, yes, in France,

893
00:42:32.960 --> 00:42:34.890
and came out
and said, "I’m with him all the way,"

894
00:42:34.890 --> 00:42:35.960
etc., etc., etc.,

895
00:42:35.960 --> 00:42:42.480
when in fact all of the intelligence
for a long time has been that he has,

896
00:42:42.480 --> 00:42:43.840
particularly in Hatay province,

897
00:42:43.840 --> 00:42:46.210
which is a contested province
Syria controls,

898
00:42:46.210 --> 00:42:50.210
those—the border
has been open for the Islamic groups,

899
00:42:50.210 --> 00:42:51.760
and he has not only been funneling—

900
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:56.570
he’s been funneling arms and money
to the most extreme groups for years.

901
00:42:56.570 --> 00:42:59.560
We know about it. There’s been a lot
of intelligence reporting on it.

902
00:43:00.350 --> 00:43:02.390
His planes, once he began to join—

903
00:43:02.390 --> 00:43:05.900
allegedly join—with us
in flying out combat missions,

904
00:43:05.900 --> 00:43:07.920
one of the first targets was, of course,

905
00:43:07.920 --> 00:43:09.190
the opposition Kurds,

906
00:43:09.190 --> 00:43:14.990
who are the best fighters
inside Syria against the Islamic State,

907
00:43:14.990 --> 00:43:19.610
but he also bombed some
of the Syrian army’s own specific units—

908
00:43:19.610 --> 00:43:21.080
exactly the contrary,

909
00:43:21.080 --> 00:43:23.030
opposite of what was what he said to do

910
00:43:23.030 --> 00:43:24.800
and what was being reported
in the press. He wasn’t helping us.

911
00:43:24.800 --> 00:43:28.400
AMY GOODMAN: And Saudi Arabia’s role,
a U.S. other ally here in the region?

912
00:43:29.370 --> 00:43:30.620
SEYMOUR HERSH: Well, this is part of,

913
00:43:30.620 --> 00:43:32.810
you know, the great farce
of our all time, you know,

914
00:43:32.810 --> 00:43:35.970
that this U.N. meeting is going
to take the views of Saudi Arabia

915
00:43:35.970 --> 00:43:37.860
and Qatar very seriously,

916
00:43:37.860 --> 00:43:41.620
when both of those countries have been
the leading exporters of money—

917
00:43:41.620 --> 00:43:43.580
and, in the case of Qatar,

918
00:43:43.580 --> 00:43:44.610
people—

919
00:43:44.610 --> 00:43:45.970
into the war in Syria

920
00:43:45.970 --> 00:43:48.790
on the behalf of the Islamic groups.

921
00:43:48.790 --> 00:43:52.030
There’s just no question
that they’re both Wahhabi states

922
00:43:52.030 --> 00:43:53.810
and Salafist states,

923
00:43:53.810 --> 00:43:58.120
and so are the Islamic State,
which is very extreme radicals.

924
00:43:58.120 --> 00:44:01.350
If there’s going to be a new Syria
under these states,

925
00:44:01.350 --> 00:44:04.110
there will be no Christians
allowed, no Alawites,

926
00:44:04.110 --> 00:44:07.580
no Muslims
that disagree with their point of view.

927
00:44:07.580 --> 00:44:09.950
It’s going to be quite a state
that we’re supporting.

928
00:44:09.950 --> 00:44:11.270
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you
for being with us,

929
00:44:11.270 --> 00:44:13.480
Seymour Hersh,
Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist,

930
00:44:13.480 --> 00:44:14.860
joining us from Washington,

931
00:44:14.860 --> 00:44:18.160
D.C. We’ll link to your latest piece
in the London Review of Books,

932
00:44:18.160 --> 00:44:19.950
headlined "Military to Military:

933
00:44:19.950 --> 00:44:24.150
US Intelligence Sharing
in the Syrian War." Sy Hersh

934
00:44:24.150 --> 00:44:27.760
is currently working on a book
on Dick Cheney’s vice presidency.

935
00:44:27.760 --> 00:44:31.360
This is Democracy Now! When we
come back, spying on Pete Seeger.

936
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:32.390
Stay with us.

937
00:44:36.050 --> 00:45:45.110
AMY GOODMAN: Pete Seeger
singing "Waist Deep in the Big Muddy,

938
00:45:45.110 --> 00:45:47.610
" here on Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

939
00:45:47.610 --> 00:45:48.660
The War and Peace Report.

940
00:45:48.660 --> 00:45:52.910
I’m Amy Goodman, as we turn
to the late musician Pete Seeger,

941
00:45:52.910 --> 00:45:56.990
musical, political icon who helped
create modern American folk music.

942
00:45:56.990 --> 00:45:59.680
Seeger wrote some of most
the defining songs

943
00:45:59.680 --> 00:46:01.780
of the 20th century peace movement—

944
00:46:01.780 --> 00:46:04.590
"If I Had a Hammer," "Where Have
All the Flowers Gone?," "Turn!

945
00:46:04.590 --> 00:46:06.600
Turn! Turn!" expressed in melody

946
00:46:06.600 --> 00:46:09.630
the views of millions
who opposed war and nuclear weapons

947
00:46:09.630 --> 00:46:11.780
and yearned to create a better world.

948
00:46:11.780 --> 00:46:15.930
In the '50s, Pete Seeger opposed
to Senator Joe McCarthy's witch hunt.

949
00:46:15.930 --> 00:46:18.560
He was called
before the House Un-American Activities

950
00:46:18.560 --> 00:46:22.230
Committee, almost jailed
for refusing to answer questions.

951
00:46:22.230 --> 00:46:24.790
Seeger became a prominent
civil rights activist,

952
00:46:24.790 --> 00:46:26.630
helped popularize the anthem

953
00:46:26.630 --> 00:46:27.740
"We Shall Overcome."

954
00:46:27.740 --> 00:46:29.260
He was also a vocal critic

955
00:46:29.260 --> 00:46:33.130
of the Vietnam War and inspired
a generation of protest singers.

956
00:46:33.130 --> 00:46:35.040
As a rebel
who challenged the status quo,

957
00:46:35.040 --> 00:46:38.540
it might not have surprised
Seeger’s fans to learn this week

958
00:46:38.540 --> 00:46:41.110
that Pete Seeger
was under government surveillance

959
00:46:41.110 --> 00:46:42.690
for nearly 30 years.

960
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:46.840
It turns out it was not an antiwar
anthem that caught the government’s eye,

961
00:46:46.840 --> 00:46:47.920
but a letter.

962
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:51.970
Newly released documents show the FBI
began spying on Pete Seeger

963
00:46:51.970 --> 00:46:54.250
as an Army private in 1943

964
00:46:54.250 --> 00:46:56.770
because he wrote a letter
protesting a proposal

965
00:46:56.770 --> 00:47:00.790
to deport all Japanese-American citizens
at the end of World War II.

966
00:47:00.790 --> 00:47:06.020
That same year, Pete married his wife,
Toshi Seeger, who was Japanese-American.

967
00:47:06.020 --> 00:47:11.750
Pete wrote, quote, "If you bar from
citizenship descendants of Japanese,

968
00:47:12.590 --> 00:47:14.310
why not descendants of English?

969
00:47:14.310 --> 00:47:16.680
After all, we once fought with them too.

970
00:47:16.680 --> 00:47:18.320
America is great and strong

971
00:47:18.320 --> 00:47:23.000
as she is because we have so far been
a haven to all oppressed," he wrote.

972
00:47:23.000 --> 00:47:26.110
The disclosure is contained
in the FBI’s file on Seeger,

973
00:47:26.110 --> 00:47:28.360
obtained by Mother Jones
and the Associated Press

974
00:47:28.360 --> 00:47:29.530
through a Freedom of Information

975
00:47:29.530 --> 00:47:30.580
Act request.

976
00:47:30.580 --> 00:47:33.580
Military intelligence agents
visited his grade school

977
00:47:33.580 --> 00:47:36.780
and his high school,
investigated his father, his wife Toshi,

978
00:47:36.780 --> 00:47:39.160
interviewed fellow folk
singer Woody Guthrie.

979
00:47:39.160 --> 00:47:41.310
A military intelligence report wrote,

980
00:47:41.310 --> 00:47:44.470
quote,
"[Seeger’s] Communistic sympathies,

981
00:47:44.470 --> 00:47:46.840
his unsatisfactory relations
with landlords

982
00:47:46.840 --> 00:47:50.040
and his numerous Communist
and otherwise undesirable friends,

983
00:47:50.040 --> 00:47:53.300
make him unfit for a position
of trust or responsibility."

984
00:47:53.300 --> 00:47:54.590
The documents show the government

985
00:47:54.590 --> 00:47:57.950
continued to spy on Seeger
until the early '70s.

986
00:47:57.950 --> 00:48:01.600
Pete Seeger's file
runs nearly 1,800 pages,

987
00:48:01.600 --> 00:48:05.220
with about 90 pages still withheld.

988
00:48:05.220 --> 00:48:08.430
Pete Seeger died last year
at the age of 94.

989
00:48:08.430 --> 00:48:11.250
David King Dunaway is a historian
and radio host

990
00:48:11.250 --> 00:48:13.720
who has spent 30 years
writing about Pete Seeger.

991
00:48:13.720 --> 00:48:16.490
He’s the author
of How Can I Keep from Singing?:

992
00:48:16.490 --> 00:48:17.920
The Ballad of Pete Seeger.

993
00:48:17.920 --> 00:48:20.310
David King Dunaway
joins us now from California.

994
00:48:20.310 --> 00:48:24.480
Welcome to Democracy Now! Can you talk
about the significance of the,

995
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:28.730
what, more than 1,700 pages
the National Archives have released?

996
00:48:29.630 --> 00:48:32.700
DAVID KING DUNAWAY: Well, you know,
that’s actually a drop in the bucket,

997
00:48:32.700 --> 00:48:36.350
because I sued the FBI and CIA, oh,

998
00:48:36.350 --> 00:48:41.460
decades ago, and actually,
right before he wrote that letter,

999
00:48:41.460 --> 00:48:42.980
he and Woody Guthrie

1000
00:48:42.980 --> 00:48:44.960
were out here in San Francisco

1001
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.180
singing for a guy named Harry Bridges,

1002
00:48:47.180 --> 00:48:50.190
who helped organize
the longshore workers’ union.

1003
00:48:50.190 --> 00:48:54.220
And the FBI thought
they had figured out the secret

1004
00:48:54.220 --> 00:48:57.200
of Pete Seeger’s appeal to an audience.

1005
00:48:57.200 --> 00:49:01.950
If I can read from an FBI document
I declassified a long time ago,

1006
00:49:01.950 --> 00:49:07.940
they said the—they characterized Pete
and Woody as "extremely untidy, ragged,

1007
00:49:07.940 --> 00:49:09.690
and dirty in appearance."

1008
00:49:09.690 --> 00:49:11.830
And then the song-leading technique

1009
00:49:11.830 --> 00:49:13.780
that couldn’t fool the FBI:

1010
00:49:13.780 --> 00:49:15.860
"After going through the song once,

1011
00:49:15.860 --> 00:49:20.240
the majority of the audience joined
in the singing," noted their informant.

1012
00:49:20.240 --> 00:49:23.260
"They joined
in not from their own desire,

1013
00:49:23.260 --> 00:49:27.550
but were led into it
through mass psychology and apathy

1014
00:49:27.550 --> 00:49:33.150
toward the utter control of the meeting
by Communist officers and members."

1015
00:49:33.150 --> 00:49:34.900
So the FBI has been hunting—

1016
00:49:34.900 --> 00:49:36.330
ghost hunting, you might say,

1017
00:49:36.330 --> 00:49:38.500
red hunting—a long time.

1018
00:49:38.500 --> 00:49:41.870
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn to a clip
from Pete on Democracy Now!

1019
00:49:41.870 --> 00:49:43.970
This was back in 2004.

1020
00:49:43.970 --> 00:49:45.510
We were in the firehouse studios.

1021
00:49:45.510 --> 00:49:49.260
And I asked him about his service
as a soldier in World War II.

1022
00:49:50.170 --> 00:49:55.360
PETE SEEGER: I first wanted
to be a mechanic in the Air Force.

1023
00:49:55.360 --> 00:49:57.060
I thought that would be
an interesting thing.

1024
00:49:57.610 --> 00:50:01.510
But then military intelligence
got interested in my politics.

1025
00:50:01.510 --> 00:50:04.470
My outfit went on to glory and death,

1026
00:50:04.470 --> 00:50:07.890
and I stayed there
in Keesler Field, Mississippi,

1027
00:50:07.890 --> 00:50:10.390
picking up cigarette butts
for six months.

1028
00:50:10.390 --> 00:50:13.160
Finally they let me know,
yes, they’d been investigating me,

1029
00:50:13.160 --> 00:50:14.630
opening all my mail.

1030
00:50:14.630 --> 00:50:17.000
AMY GOODMAN: Pete Seeger,
when you came back,

1031
00:50:17.000 --> 00:50:18.660
they continued to investigate you.

1032
00:50:19.710 --> 00:50:22.140
PETE SEEGER: Well, I have assumed
most of my life

1033
00:50:22.140 --> 00:50:25.860
that if there wasn’t a microphone
under the bed,

1034
00:50:25.860 --> 00:50:28.240
they were tapping the phone
from time to time

1035
00:50:28.240 --> 00:50:30.140
and opening my mail from time to time.

1036
00:50:30.850 --> 00:50:32.290
Who knows?

1037
00:50:32.290 --> 00:50:34.260
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Pete Seeger
back in 2004.

1038
00:50:34.260 --> 00:50:35.360
We know a little more now.

1039
00:50:35.360 --> 00:50:37.650
David King Dunaway,
you got about a thousand pages.

1040
00:50:37.650 --> 00:50:40.630
Now, another 1,700 pages
have been released.

1041
00:50:41.260 --> 00:50:43.820
But back in 1943,

1042
00:50:43.820 --> 00:50:45.470
when he marries his wife Toshi,

1043
00:50:45.470 --> 00:50:46.700
who’s Japanese-American,

1044
00:50:46.700 --> 00:50:50.890
talk about why it was this letter
that prompted the FBI to open the file,

1045
00:50:50.890 --> 00:50:52.750
at least as far as we know.

1046
00:50:54.050 --> 00:50:56.770
DAVID KING DUNAWAY: Well, I think
the file was actually opened earlier,

1047
00:50:56.770 --> 00:50:58.520
because Pete Seeger was a member

1048
00:50:58.520 --> 00:51:02.810
of a very successful national group
called the Almanac Singers.

1049
00:51:02.810 --> 00:51:07.080
They were on all four radio networks
at once, at one point,

1050
00:51:07.080 --> 00:51:09.400
before a Harvard professor—

1051
00:51:09.400 --> 00:51:11.920
ironically, since Pete went to Harvard

1052
00:51:11.920 --> 00:51:15.120
for a year and a half
in the class of JFK,

1053
00:51:15.120 --> 00:51:16.440
that is—

1054
00:51:16.440 --> 00:51:19.940
actually blew the whistle on the fact

1055
00:51:19.940 --> 00:51:23.430
that before Pete Seeger
was singing "Beat Hitler" songs,

1056
00:51:23.430 --> 00:51:26.960
he was singing peace songs
and union songs.

1057
00:51:26.960 --> 00:51:30.800
And there were a lot of people
that didn’t like unions in those days.

1058
00:51:30.800 --> 00:51:34.810
And ultimately, that quality in him,

1059
00:51:34.810 --> 00:51:39.350
the quality of what I think of
as New England patriotism,

1060
00:51:39.350 --> 00:51:45.070
the sense that we have the right
to speak our minds, won out.

1061
00:51:45.070 --> 00:51:49.530
I mean, here’s Pete Seeger
investigated for 30 years by the FBI.

1062
00:51:49.530 --> 00:51:51.490
They sent people out to Boston.

1063
00:51:51.490 --> 00:51:53.370
They sent them out to New York City.

1064
00:51:54.430 --> 00:51:56.840
All over the country,
they were trying to find out—

1065
00:51:56.840 --> 00:51:58.760
they sent people
to his elementary school,

1066
00:51:58.760 --> 00:52:00.070
to his high school—

1067
00:52:00.070 --> 00:52:01.760
all of this to find out:

1068
00:52:01.760 --> 00:52:04.060
What is this man
who wrote a letter?

1069
00:52:04.060 --> 00:52:09.210
And after all, isn’t it a right
of a private citizen to write a letter

1070
00:52:09.210 --> 00:52:13.010
expressing their feelings
to the government about what it means?

1071
00:52:13.010 --> 00:52:14.990
And what you read, Amy,

1072
00:52:14.990 --> 00:52:17.920
sounds an awful lot
like Donald Trump today.

1073
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:21.180
AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to go back
to that same interview in 2004,

1074
00:52:21.180 --> 00:52:23.300
when Pete spent the hour
on Democracy Now!

1075
00:52:23.300 --> 00:52:25.750
talking about his life
and performing a few songs.

1076
00:52:25.750 --> 00:52:27.650
And I asked him about his father,

1077
00:52:27.650 --> 00:52:30.620
who at one time worked at the University
of California, Berkeley,

1078
00:52:30.620 --> 00:52:33.640
and was also once connected
to the Communist Party.

1079
00:52:34.580 --> 00:52:37.390
PETE SEEGER: Well, he was originally
in charge of the music department there

1080
00:52:37.390 --> 00:52:39.430
at the young age of 24,

1081
00:52:39.430 --> 00:52:43.580
the youngest full professor
at the university.

1082
00:52:43.580 --> 00:52:44.940
But along comes World War I,

1083
00:52:44.940 --> 00:52:48.650
and he had been radicalized, as people
tend to when they go to Berkeley,

1084
00:52:49.270 --> 00:52:52.020
and he made speeches
against imperialist war.

1085
00:52:52.600 --> 00:52:54.500
My mother said, "Can’t
you keep your mouth shut?"

1086
00:52:55.120 --> 00:52:56.750
He said, "But something’s wrong,

1087
00:52:56.750 --> 00:52:58.080
you should speak out about it."

1088
00:52:58.810 --> 00:53:00.910
The old New England idea,

1089
00:53:01.430 --> 00:53:05.000
goes back to Sam Adams,
and before that, I guess.

1090
00:53:06.170 --> 00:53:07.420
Well, he got fired.

1091
00:53:08.010 --> 00:53:12.970
Later on, when the crash of ’29 came—

1092
00:53:12.970 --> 00:53:14.480
the marriage had broken up—

1093
00:53:15.060 --> 00:53:23.510
he married a young, extraordinary
young composer named Ruth Crawford

1094
00:53:23.510 --> 00:53:24.920
and had four more children.

1095
00:53:26.000 --> 00:53:31.060
But he, in those early days,
linked up with the Communist movement.

1096
00:53:31.060 --> 00:53:35.130
He and Aaron Copland and Henry Cowell
and Marc Blitzstein.

1097
00:53:35.130 --> 00:53:38.140
They had a thing
they called the Composers’ Collective.

1098
00:53:38.140 --> 00:53:41.330
After all, in Russia they had
collectives this and collective that.

1099
00:53:42.300 --> 00:53:45.600
And there, they decided,
as skilled musicians,

1100
00:53:45.600 --> 00:53:49.130
they would compose the new music
for the new society.

1101
00:53:50.060 --> 00:53:52.230
Well, their attempts were laughable.

1102
00:53:53.030 --> 00:53:56.930
Aaron Copland put music to a poem
by Alfred Hayes,

1103
00:53:56.930 --> 00:53:58.300
same man who wrote "Joe Hill"—

1104
00:53:59.770 --> 00:54:01.620
"Into the Streets May 1st."

1105
00:54:01.620 --> 00:54:06.030
But only a very expert singer
could sing it, tremendous range,

1106
00:54:06.030 --> 00:54:09.670
and only a very expert pianist
could accompany it properly.

1107
00:54:09.670 --> 00:54:12.490
Of course, no proletariat ever sang him.

1108
00:54:12.990 --> 00:54:15.950
AMY GOODMAN: That was Pete Seeger
on Democracy Now! in 2004.

1109
00:54:15.950 --> 00:54:18.720
He was called
before the House Un-American Activities

1110
00:54:18.720 --> 00:54:20.130
Committee August 18th,

1111
00:54:20.130 --> 00:54:22.040
1955.

1112
00:54:22.040 --> 00:54:24.120
Jim Musselman was on the show with him,

1113
00:54:24.120 --> 00:54:27.480
a longtime friend
and record producer for Pete Seeger,

1114
00:54:27.480 --> 00:54:32.080
and he talked
about Pete Seeger’s defense before HUAC.

1115
00:54:32.760 --> 00:54:35.470
JIM MUSSELMAN: I just wanted to invoke
one thing dealing with the McCarthy era

1116
00:54:35.470 --> 00:54:36.720
and Pete.

1117
00:54:37.340 --> 00:54:40.560
Basically he was one of the few people
who invoked the First Amendment

1118
00:54:40.560 --> 00:54:42.190
in front of the McCarthy committee.

1119
00:54:42.190 --> 00:54:43.930
Everyone else had said
the Fifth Amendment,

1120
00:54:43.930 --> 00:54:45.350
the right against self-incrimination,

1121
00:54:45.350 --> 00:54:46.880
and then they were dismissed.

1122
00:54:46.880 --> 00:54:51.750
What Pete did,
and what some other very powerful people

1123
00:54:51.750 --> 00:54:53.840
who had the guts
and the intestinal fortitude

1124
00:54:53.840 --> 00:54:54.910
to stand up to the committee

1125
00:54:54.910 --> 00:54:56.880
and say, "I’m going
to invoke the First Amendment,

1126
00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:58.890
the right of freedom of association."

1127
00:54:58.890 --> 00:55:00.540
And I was actually in law school

1128
00:55:00.540 --> 00:55:02.780
when I read the case
of Seeger v. United States,

1129
00:55:02.780 --> 00:55:04.400
and it really changed my life,

1130
00:55:04.400 --> 00:55:07.230
because I saw the courage
of what he had done

1131
00:55:07.230 --> 00:55:09.860
and what some other people had done
by invoking the First Amendment,

1132
00:55:09.860 --> 00:55:11.000
saying, "We’re all Americans.

1133
00:55:11.000 --> 00:55:13.470
We can associate
with whoever we want to,

1134
00:55:13.470 --> 00:55:15.920
and it doesn’t matter
who we associate with."

1135
00:55:15.920 --> 00:55:17.240
That’s what the founding fathers

1136
00:55:17.240 --> 00:55:19.170
set up the democracy to be.

1137
00:55:19.170 --> 00:55:22.010
So I just really feel
it’s an important part of history

1138
00:55:22.010 --> 00:55:23.880
that people need to remember.

1139
00:55:23.880 --> 00:55:25.080
AMY GOODMAN: That was Jim Musselman,

1140
00:55:25.080 --> 00:55:28.050
longtime friend and record producer
for Pete Seeger.

1141
00:55:28.050 --> 00:55:34.250
So, David,
if you can talk about the last 90 pages

1142
00:55:34.250 --> 00:55:36.570
that we believe
the government has, right?

1143
00:55:36.570 --> 00:55:39.720
There’s apparently this 1,800-page file;

1144
00:55:39.720 --> 00:55:42.150
they’ve released
all but 90 of the pages.

1145
00:55:42.150 --> 00:55:45.720
I mean, Pete has died,
his wife Toshi has died.

1146
00:55:45.720 --> 00:55:48.730
What could they be possibly hanging
onto to keep secret?

1147
00:55:49.670 --> 00:55:52.780
DAVID KING DUNAWAY: Well, when I spoke
to an attorney here in San Francisco

1148
00:55:52.780 --> 00:55:56.550
as part of my suit
against the FBI and CIA,

1149
00:55:56.550 --> 00:56:00.870
I said, "Why are you caring so much
about this material?"

1150
00:56:00.870 --> 00:56:02.870
And I think—I think the real reason,

1151
00:56:02.870 --> 00:56:07.530
Amy, is that they’re concerned that
maybe some of the statute of limitations

1152
00:56:07.530 --> 00:56:10.260
has not yet expired on the crimes

1153
00:56:10.260 --> 00:56:13.210
that were committed
against American citizens

1154
00:56:13.210 --> 00:56:15.460
as part of this, you know,

1155
00:56:15.460 --> 00:56:20.640
Cold War, against the remnants
of the Roosevelt administration.

1156
00:56:20.640 --> 00:56:23.940
So they may be worried
about their own agents

1157
00:56:23.940 --> 00:56:25.050
and what they did.

1158
00:56:26.530 --> 00:56:29.740
AMY GOODMAN: What could the FBI
conversation

1159
00:56:29.740 --> 00:56:34.700
have been like with Woody Guthrie,
investigating Pete Seeger, David?

1160
00:56:36.240 --> 00:56:40.090
DAVID KING DUNAWAY: Well, the FBI
did go to Pete—to Woody

1161
00:56:40.090 --> 00:56:41.940
and did ask him questions.

1162
00:56:41.940 --> 00:56:45.000
And according to the summary
released by their informant,

1163
00:56:45.000 --> 00:56:47.190
which is not always quite accurate,

1164
00:56:48.600 --> 00:56:49.610
well, they—

1165
00:56:49.610 --> 00:56:52.190
Woody kind of soft-pedaled politics,

1166
00:56:52.190 --> 00:56:57.350
said Pete was a liberal
who believed in the common man, sic.

1167
00:56:57.350 --> 00:57:02.590
And I think that what we can learn
from all of this is, what does—

1168
00:57:02.590 --> 00:57:06.670
what right does the government
have into working with

1169
00:57:06.670 --> 00:57:10.900
or interfering with artistic production
and artists themselves?

1170
00:57:10.900 --> 00:57:13.190
What role do we want
the government to take?

1171
00:57:13.190 --> 00:57:16.980
Do they get to pick and choose
which artists they like

1172
00:57:16.980 --> 00:57:22.100
and which they follow down hallways
and skulk at in corners?

1173
00:57:22.100 --> 00:57:23.160
I don’t think so.

1174
00:57:23.160 --> 00:57:24.670
I don’t think America is that way.

1175
00:57:24.670 --> 00:57:27.240
And I don’t think
Pete Seeger’s tradition

1176
00:57:27.240 --> 00:57:33.590
of intellectual and moral
responsibility is appropriate here.

1177
00:57:33.590 --> 00:57:36.030
You know, America needs heroes.

1178
00:57:36.030 --> 00:57:37.990
We’ve lost a lot of them.

1179
00:57:37.990 --> 00:57:41.300
Pete Seeger was one of those people
who just never shut up.

1180
00:57:41.300 --> 00:57:45.330
He felt like he had a world to defend,

1181
00:57:45.330 --> 00:57:46.510
and he defended it.

1182
00:57:47.060 --> 00:57:49.370
AMY GOODMAN: As we wrap up, David,

1183
00:57:49.370 --> 00:57:52.380
"Knee Deep in the Big Muddy," that we
played in our break,

1184
00:57:52.380 --> 00:57:54.860
that he was supposed
to sing on Smothers Brothers,

1185
00:57:54.860 --> 00:57:58.140
but the networks stopped that song
from being played.

1186
00:57:58.140 --> 00:58:00.810
Ultimately, though,
he was able to sing it there.

1187
00:58:02.910 --> 00:58:04.220
DAVID KING DUNAWAY: It took a while.

1188
00:58:04.220 --> 00:58:08.840
What happened is that they cut away
from Pete Seeger playing the banjo.

1189
00:58:08.840 --> 00:58:12.070
Next thing you knew,
he came back with a 12-string guitar.

1190
00:58:12.070 --> 00:58:13.790
They made the edit a little awkward,

1191
00:58:13.790 --> 00:58:15.410
so everybody would kind of know,

1192
00:58:15.410 --> 00:58:16.530
I rather suspect,

1193
00:58:16.530 --> 00:58:20.290
and Pete suspected, too,
that there had been some break there,

1194
00:58:20.290 --> 00:58:24.040
there had been some change, someone
had gone in and cut something out.

1195
00:58:24.040 --> 00:58:26.880
Eventually, yes,
the next time, next year,

1196
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:28.210
times had changed.

1197
00:58:28.210 --> 00:58:33.320
It was late in the 1960s during
the protests against the Vietnam War.

1198
00:58:33.320 --> 00:58:35.640
That song, "Waist Deep
in the Big Muddy,"

1199
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was an obvious allegory there.

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He got to sing the song, and then
the Smothers Brothers was canceled.

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AMY GOODMAN: We have
to leave it there,

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but I want to thank you
for being with us.

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David King Dunaway has made three
major documentaries about Pete Seeger,

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historian and radio host.