WEBVTT

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From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now!

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What you’re seeing
within the Republican Party

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is, to some degree,

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all those efforts

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over a course of time

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creating an environment where somebody
like a Donald Trump can thrive.

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You know, he’s just doing more

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of what has been done
for the last seven-and-a-half years.

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As voters head
to the polls

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for Super Tuesday 3 and President Obama

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prepares to nominate a replacement

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for Supreme Court Justice
Antonin Scalia,

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we’ll speak with former
Republican Congressmember Mickey Edwards

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of Oklahoma.

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We’ll talk to him
about Donald Trump,

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about climate change
and why he feels

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political parties

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have become the cancer
at the heart of our democracy.

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Then, could fascism come
to the United States?

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That’s a famous Mussolini quote.
You retweeted it.

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Do you like the quote?
Did you know it was Mussolini?

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Sure. It’s OK
to know it’s Mussolini.

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Look, Mussolini was Mussolini.

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It’s OK to—it’s
a very good quote.

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As Robert Reich calls
Donald Trump

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"the American fascist," we’ll speak
with Columbia University professor

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Robert Paxton,

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author of The Anatomy of Fascism.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy
Now!, democracynow.org,

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The War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman.

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In what’s
being billed

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as Super Tuesday 3,
Democratic

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and Republican voters
head to the polls today

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for primaries and caucuses in Florida,

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Illinois, Missouri, North Carolina, Ohio

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and the commonwealth
of the Northern Mariana Islands.

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In the Republican race,
all eyes will be on Ohio and Florida,

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where Ohio Governor John Kasich

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and Florida Senator Marco
Rubio are attempting

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to defeat front-runner Donald Trump
in their home states.

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On the Democratic side,
polls

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show Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders

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and former Secretary
of State Hillary Clinton

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locked in close races

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in Ohio, Illinois and Missouri.

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Speaking in Youngstown, Ohio,

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on Monday, Sanders
said he can defeat Donald Trump.

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Sen. Bernie Sanders: "One of
the arguments made against this campaign

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is, people say, 'Well, you know,
Bernie Sanders, nice idea—nice guy,

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nice ideas,

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but he can't win the general election.’

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That’s wrong.

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That is factually incorrect.

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And I would—all of you,
take a look at all of the polls,

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almost all of the polls

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that have been taken
over the last several months.

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Last national poll
done by NBC,

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Wall Street Journal,

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Bernie Sanders versus Donald Trump,

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Sanders wins by 18 points."

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Donald Trump has continued

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to face condemnation
for violence at his rallies.

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In North Carolina,
the Cumberland County Sheriff’s Office

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considered charging
the Republican presidential front-runner

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with inciting a riot

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after one of his supporters
punched a protester in the face

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during a rally
in Fayetteville last week.

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The office ultimately decided not
to move forward with the charges.

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During a campaign stop
in Tampa, Florida,

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on Monday, Trump again faced protests
both outside and inside the venue.

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Donald Trump: "Ah, get out of here.

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These people are crazy.

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They’re crazy.

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I didn’t know this happened in Tampa.

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I love Tampa.

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I didn’t know this happened.

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All right.

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They’ll go home—they’ll go home
to their moms soon,

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and they’ll get—let me ask you.

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You know, I don’t want
to ruin somebody’s life,

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but do we prosecute somebody like that?"

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Former Republican vice-presidential
candidate Sarah Palin

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joined Trump on stage

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and condemned the demonstrators

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who have repeatedly, peacefully
disrupted Trump’s rallies.

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Sarah Palin: "What we don’t have time

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for is all that

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petty,
punk-ass

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little thuggery stuff

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that’s been going on
with these quote-unquote

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'protesters,'

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who are doing nothing
but wasting your time

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and trying to take away
your First Amendment rights,

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your rights to assemble peacefully.

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And the media being
on the thugs’ side,

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what the heck are you guys
thinking, media?

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It doesn’t make sense."

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A reporter at the right-wing news site

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Breitbart has resigned,

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along with a number
of her colleagues,

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saying the organization has become
a shill for Donald Trump.

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Michelle Fields resigned after accusing
Trump’s campaign manager,

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Corey Lewandowski,

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of grabbing and shoving her
at a Florida rally.

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The incident was witnessed
by a Washington Post journalist.

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But Breitbart published
an article casting doubt

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on its own reporter’s claims.

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Speaking on Megyn Kelly’s show

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on Fox News Monday, Fields

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said her editors at Breitbart
failed to support her.

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Michelle Fields: "When this happened,
my Washington editor, Matthew Boyle,

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was telling me, 'Oh, don't worry,
this is going to be great,

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because Donald Trump is going to give us
so many exclusives now

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because they’re going to feel

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like they have to do it
because of what they did.’

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This is how my company
was looking at this.

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Instead of saying, 'Wow!
What happened?

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Are you OK?
Let's defend you,’

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they were thinking
that this was a good thing

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because we would get
more access to Donald Trump."

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Breitbart spokesperson Kurt Bardella
also resigned, saying

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the outlet had become
a "de facto super PAC" for Trump,

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as did national security reporter
Jordan Schachtel,

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editor Jarrett Stepman

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and editor-at-large Ben Shapiro.

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Shapiro told Megyn Kelly

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why he thinks the shakeup
is an important story.

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Ben Shapiro: "Well, I mean,
I think the idolatrous worship

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of the Trump campaign
by some people in the media,

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leading to them
covering up the truth,

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is a major story.

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And as you say, I think
it’s, again, a story,

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because the Trump campaign
never acknowledges mistakes,

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never acknowledges their responsibility
for violence,

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never acknowledges anything
that they do wrong.

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It’s a no-apologies campaign.
That’s why he’s popular.

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But that does have consequences,
and it does have victims.

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You know, in this case,
it was just a bruise on the arm.

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But, you know, there are other cases
where it’s more than that."

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Meanwhile, a Muslim student in Kansas

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says he and his Latino friend
were beaten up over the weekend

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by a man who shouted "Trump!

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Trump! Trump!"
and racial slurs.

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Khondoker Usama told news outlets
the man shouted,

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"Trump will take our country
from you guys!"

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In a surprise announcement,

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Russian President Vladimir Putin

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has said Russia will withdraw
the bulk of its forces from Syria.

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Putin made the announcement Monday,

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saying the Russian campaign in Syria
had largely fulfilled its objective.

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President Vladimir Putin: "I believe

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that the goal set out
to the Ministry of Defense

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and the armed forces
has in large part been fulfilled,

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and that’s why I ordered
the Ministry of Defense,

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as of tomorrow, to start the pullout

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of the main part
of our military grouping

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from the Syrian Arab Republic."

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Russian troops have reportedly already
begun to depart Syria,

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with the first planes
leaving earlier today.

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Russia’s involvement in the conflict
helped bolster the regime

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of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

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U.N. peace envoy Staffan de Mistura

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said he hoped
Russia’s withdrawal

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would have a "positive impact"
on Syrian peace talks

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now entering their second day in Geneva.

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At least three
Afghan refugees have drowned

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while attempting to cross a river
from Greece to Macedonia

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after the closure
of the main border left them stranded.

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The refugees were among about 1,000

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who tried to make it to Macedonia

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amid harsh border restrictions
all along the Balkan route.

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A number of them formed a human chain

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over coursing river waters

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to help each other across.

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A top U.S. general
has proposed resuming offensive strikes

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against the Taliban in Afghanistan.

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The Washington Post reports
top Pentagon officials

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have accused General John F. Campbell,

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who recently left his post as commander

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of U.S. forces
in Afghanistan,

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of breaking with procedure

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by forwarding his proposal
directly to the White House

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without the knowledge
of Defense Secretary Ashton Carter.

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Campbell denies the claim.

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Current policy allows the United States

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to strike the Taliban
only under certain conditions,

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including if there’s
a direct threat to U.S. troops.

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In Berlin, Germany,
a car has exploded,

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killing the driver, authorities say,

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after a bomb detonated.

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Few details have been released so far.

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In Bahrain,
police

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have detained
a leading human rights activist

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and her one-year-old son.

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Zainab Alkhawaja is the daughter

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of longtime activist
Abdulhadi Alkhawaja,

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who is imprisoned
under a life sentence.

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Zainab’s arrest came
on the fifth anniversary

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of a violent crackdown
on the Arab Spring uprising

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by the Shiite majority

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against the Sunni monarchy in Bahrain.

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Human rights groups have called
for her immediate release.

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Bahrain is a close U.S. ally,

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home to the Navy’s Fifth Fleet.

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The Obama administration
is reportedly poised

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to withdraw its plan to allow oil
and gas drilling off the coast

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of the southeastern United States
following mass opposition

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from coastal communities.

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The New York Times
reports the announcement

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could come as soon as today.

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Obama’s initial plan to open swaths

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of the southeastern Atlantic coast
to oil drilling

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was backed by governors
and lawmakers

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in southeastern states,

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but opposed
by more than 100 coastal communities

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and environmentalists.

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A new study shows the number of people

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who could be displaced by sea level rise

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this century in the United States due
to global warming is much higher

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than previously thought, with more
than 13 million people at risk,

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nearly half of them in Florida.

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Those numbers are about three times

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higher than previous estimates
for displacement.

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Researcher Deepak Mishra
elaborated on the findings.

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Deepak Mishra: "I think there’s
a certain layered approach

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that can be—that can stem
from this research,

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for example, if you tell people

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that, OK,

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85 years down the road,

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13 million people will be affected

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if we take the most
extreme projection,

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which is 1.8-meter sea
level rise by 2100.

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But I think we need
to take this study forward

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by doing another study

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of what is the impact
of sea level rise

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right now in terms

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of frequent coastal flooding."

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The study comes amid
devastating flooding in Louisiana

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that have damaged thousands of homes

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and caused President Obama
to declare a "major disaster."

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In Brazil, former President
Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva

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has reportedly accepted
a ministerial role

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in the government
of President Dilma Rousseff.

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Taking the post will grant Lula

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a degree of legal protection

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from what he says are politically
motivated charges of money laundering.

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State prosecutors filed
for Lula’s arrest last week.

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Over the weekend,
more than a million people

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took to the streets

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to protest Dilma Rousseff’s government

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amid a corruption scandal
and economic crisis.

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In Argentina,
human rights groups

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have called on the United States

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to declassify thousands

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of documents related
to Argentina’s military dictatorship

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as President Obama prepares
to visit Argentina next week.

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Groups including the Grandmothers
of the Plaza de Mayo

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00:11:29.590 --> 00:11:31.960
submitted a petition
to the U.S. Embassy

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in Buenos Aires.

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They hope the documents could help
identify missing family members.

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Gaston Chillier of the Center
for Legal and Social Studies

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said the documents could help
compensate for the U.S. role

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in the so-called dirty war
which began 40 years ago.

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Gaston Chillier: "I think
that the declassification

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of information in different areas

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of the region could shed light
on serious violations of human rights.

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In this sense, I think
the United States can, in a way,

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compensate for the role
they had at that time.

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Our Center for Legal
and Social Studies

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00:12:04.790 --> 00:12:07.760
has always highlighted
the context of (U.S.) support

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for military dictatorships
across the region,

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including Argentina,

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but during the (Jimmy)
Carter administration,

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the Embassy was a key location

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which received a lot
of the complaints,

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and Human Rights Secretary (Patricia)
Derian was an important figure

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in pressuring
the Argentine dictatorial government."

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The U.S. Senate has voted
to confirm John King Jr.

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as the new secretary of education.

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King had been serving
as acting secretary

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since Arne Duncan stepped down
at the end of last year.

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Despite refusing even to consider
any Supreme Court nominee,

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some Senate Republicans
voted to confirm King,

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saying they wanted a secretary

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who was accountable to the Senate.

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King previously served as New
York state’s education commissioner,

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where he came under criticism

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for advocating high-stakes standardized
testing linked to teacher evaluations,

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policies that sparked
a historic statewide testing boycott.

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In sports news,
a top National

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Football League official

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has for the first time
publicly acknowledged the link

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between football-related head injuries

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and the brain disease chronic
traumatic encephalopathy, or CTE.

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The NFL has never
admitted the link before.

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Jeff Miller, NFL senior vice president
for health and safety,

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was asked by a congressmember

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if there is an established connection
between CTE and football.

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He responded, "The answer
to that question is certainly yes."

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And the family
of an African-American college student

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fatally shot by police
in Pleasantville, New York,

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in 2010 has reached
a $6 million settlement

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with the village and the officer.

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DJ Henry was shot while
driving away from a party.

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Authorities said a police officer
approached Henry’s car.

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A friend who was with him believed
the officer was telling them

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to move the car.

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As Henry pulled away, authorities said,

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the officer told him to stop
and stepped in front of the car.

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Authorities found
Henry’s car was braking

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when it struck the officer,
Aaron Hess,

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who wound up
on the hood

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and fired through the windshield,

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killing Henry.

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A number of witnesses said
Hess jumped onto the hood.

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A grand jury declined to indict him.

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And those are some of the headlines
this is Democracy Now,

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Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

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00:14:17.490 --> 00:14:19.150
I’m Amy Goodman.

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00:14:19.150 --> 00:14:20.350
AMY GOODMAN: In what’s
being billed

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00:14:20.350 --> 00:14:22.660
Super Tuesday 3,
Democratic

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00:14:22.660 --> 00:14:24.940
and Republican voters
head to the polls today

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00:14:24.940 --> 00:14:26.450
for primaries
and caucuses

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00:14:26.450 --> 00:14:30.150
in Florida, Illinois, Missouri,
North Carolina and Ohio.

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00:14:30.150 --> 00:14:32.080
In the Republican race, all eyes

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00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:33.890
will be on Ohio and Florida.

328
00:14:33.890 --> 00:14:36.010
Can Ohio Governor John Kasich

329
00:14:36.010 --> 00:14:38.200
or Florida Senator Marco Rubio

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00:14:38.200 --> 00:14:40.320
pull off a victory
in their home states,

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00:14:40.320 --> 00:14:44.950
or with Donald Trump move closer
to securing the Republican nomination?

332
00:14:44.950 --> 00:14:46.260
In the Democratic race,

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00:14:46.260 --> 00:14:48.610
can Bernie Sanders pull off more upsets

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00:14:48.610 --> 00:14:50.640
like he did last week in Michigan?

335
00:14:50.640 --> 00:14:54.210
Polls show Hillary Clinton
and Sanders locked in close races

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00:14:54.210 --> 00:14:56.340
in Ohio, Illinois and Missouri.

337
00:14:56.340 --> 00:14:58.150
Meanwhile,
a political battle

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00:14:58.150 --> 00:14:59.740
is playing out in Washington

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00:14:59.740 --> 00:15:01.930
as the Republican-controlled Congress

340
00:15:01.930 --> 00:15:06.410
and Obama’s White House are locked
in a battle over the Supreme Court.

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00:15:06.410 --> 00:15:10.210
Obama is expected to nominate
a replacement for Justice Antonin Scalia

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00:15:10.210 --> 00:15:11.520
as soon as this week,

343
00:15:11.520 --> 00:15:15.140
but Republican lawmakers said
they will not hold hearings

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00:15:15.140 --> 00:15:19.680
to consider any nominations
put forth by President Obama.

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00:15:19.680 --> 00:15:21.540
This comes as a new Gallup poll

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00:15:21.540 --> 00:15:26.050
says only 13 percent of Americans
approve of Congress’s performance.

347
00:15:26.050 --> 00:15:29.630
Both parties blame each other
for the increasing partisan divide.

348
00:15:29.630 --> 00:15:31.990
Former Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal

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00:15:31.990 --> 00:15:34.800
recently blamed Obama
for the rise of Trump.

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00:15:34.800 --> 00:15:36.300
Jindal wrote, quote,

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00:15:36.300 --> 00:15:38.230
"There would be no Donald Trump,

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00:15:38.230 --> 00:15:40.220
dominating the political scene today

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00:15:40.220 --> 00:15:42.270
if it were not for President Obama."

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00:15:42.270 --> 00:15:45.190
Speaking at the Rose Garden
last Thursday, President Obama

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00:15:45.190 --> 00:15:48.020
said Republicans themselves are
to blame for Trump.

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00:15:48.910 --> 00:15:51.850
PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Objectively,
it’s fair to say

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00:15:51.850 --> 00:15:58.990
that the Republican political elites

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00:16:00.470 --> 00:16:05.370
and many of the information
outlets—social media, news outlets,

359
00:16:05.370 --> 00:16:06.710
talk radio,

360
00:16:06.710 --> 00:16:11.430
television stations—have been

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00:16:11.430 --> 00:16:14.380
feeding the Republican base

362
00:16:14.380 --> 00:16:16.900
for the last seven years

363
00:16:17.410 --> 00:16:19.340
a notion

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00:16:19.340 --> 00:16:22.580
that everything I do

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00:16:22.580 --> 00:16:25.730
is to be opposed;

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00:16:25.730 --> 00:16:30.620
that cooperation or compromise

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00:16:31.200 --> 00:16:33.620
somehow is a betrayal;

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00:16:35.030 --> 00:16:37.490
that maximalist,

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00:16:37.490 --> 00:16:42.260
absolutist positions on issues

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00:16:42.950 --> 00:16:45.780
are politically advantageous;

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00:16:47.170 --> 00:16:51.700
that there is a them out there

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00:16:51.700 --> 00:16:55.620
and an us, and them are the folks

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00:16:55.620 --> 00:16:57.330
who are causing

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00:16:57.330 --> 00:16:59.180
whatever problems you’re experiencing.

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00:17:00.270 --> 00:17:01.910
And so,

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00:17:01.910 --> 00:17:04.990
what you’re seeing
within the Republican Party

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00:17:04.990 --> 00:17:07.440
is, to some degree,

378
00:17:08.770 --> 00:17:09.880
all those efforts

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00:17:10.700 --> 00:17:13.310
over a course of time

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00:17:15.190 --> 00:17:19.110
creating an environment where somebody
like a Donald Trump can thrive.

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00:17:20.930 --> 00:17:25.580
You know, he’s just doing more

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00:17:25.580 --> 00:17:28.360
of what has been done
for the last seven-and-a-half years.

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00:17:28.970 --> 00:17:31.880
And in fact, in terms of his positions
on a whole range of issues,

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00:17:31.880 --> 00:17:34.480
they’re not very different
from any of the other candidates.

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00:17:34.480 --> 00:17:35.860
AMY GOODMAN: Meanwhile,
some in the media

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00:17:35.860 --> 00:17:37.820
are celebrating, rather than bemoaning,

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00:17:37.820 --> 00:17:40.590
the rise of extremism
in the political campaigns.

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00:17:40.590 --> 00:17:43.840
This is CBS CEO Les Moonves
speaking recently

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00:17:43.840 --> 00:17:47.140
at a Morgan Stanley-hosted conference
in San Francisco.

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00:17:47.940 --> 00:17:50.610
LESLIE MOONVES: Who would have thought
that this circus would come to town?

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00:17:50.610 --> 00:17:53.500
But, you know, it may not be
good for America,

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00:17:53.500 --> 00:17:54.880
but it’s damn good for CBS.

393
00:17:54.880 --> 00:17:57.180
That’s all I’ve got to say.

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00:17:57.880 --> 00:18:00.710
So, what can I say?

395
00:18:00.710 --> 00:18:03.610
It’s—you know,
the money’s rolling in,

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00:18:03.610 --> 00:18:05.770
and this is—
UNIDENTIFIED: Polls are open.

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00:18:05.770 --> 00:18:07.020
LESLIE MOONVES: This is—this is
something.

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00:18:07.020 --> 00:18:08.300
I’ve never seen anything like this.

399
00:18:08.300 --> 00:18:11.140
And, you know, this is going to be
a very good year for us.

400
00:18:14.180 --> 00:18:16.590
But—sorry, it’s a terrible thing to say,

401
00:18:16.590 --> 00:18:18.020
but bring it on, Donald.

402
00:18:18.020 --> 00:18:19.290
Go ahead.
Keep going.

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00:18:19.970 --> 00:18:23.200
AMY GOODMAN: Well, to discuss
further partisan politics

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00:18:23.200 --> 00:18:24.750
and the future of the Republican Party,

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00:18:24.750 --> 00:18:28.700
we’re joined by former Republican
Oklahoma Congressman Mickey Edwards.

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00:18:28.700 --> 00:18:31.280
He served 16 years as congressman,

407
00:18:31.280 --> 00:18:34.330
from 1977 to 1993,

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00:18:34.330 --> 00:18:37.880
during which time he chaired
the House Republican Policy Committee.

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00:18:37.880 --> 00:18:39.920
He was also a founding trustee

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00:18:39.920 --> 00:18:43.100
of the conservative Heritage Foundation.

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00:18:43.100 --> 00:18:45.260
Congressmember Edwards’ most recent book

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00:18:45.260 --> 00:18:47.570
is The Parties Versus the People:

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00:18:47.570 --> 00:18:50.750
How to Turn Republicans
and Democrats into Americans.

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00:18:50.750 --> 00:18:51.980
So let’s start there.

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00:18:51.980 --> 00:18:54.340
The Parties Versus the People? Well—

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00:18:54.340 --> 00:18:56.950
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, Amy,
what’s happened is, you know,

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00:18:56.950 --> 00:18:59.150
we’ve set up a structure,
through the primaries,

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00:18:59.150 --> 00:19:00.640
closed primaries,

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00:19:00.640 --> 00:19:04.120
that elevates—and sore
loser laws—I mean,

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00:19:04.120 --> 00:19:06.590
if you lose your primary,
you can’t run in the general election.

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00:19:06.590 --> 00:19:07.900
That’s in 46 states.

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00:19:07.900 --> 00:19:09.310
AMY GOODMAN: Explain
what you mean by that.

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00:19:09.310 --> 00:19:11.280
MICKEY EDWARDS: So, in 46 states,

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00:19:11.280 --> 00:19:15.660
if you were running against me
in a primary for whatever party,

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00:19:16.540 --> 00:19:19.070
you might be far more
popular in the state

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00:19:19.070 --> 00:19:20.560
or in the congressional district,

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00:19:20.560 --> 00:19:23.750
but if I beat you,
even if only 25 people showed up,

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00:19:23.750 --> 00:19:25.690
you can’t run in the general election.

429
00:19:25.690 --> 00:19:28.090
And so, I mean,
you talk about democracy.

430
00:19:28.090 --> 00:19:31.080
You know, we don’t have one
in our political system.

431
00:19:31.080 --> 00:19:34.880
And the result of it is
that people are—who shows up?

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00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:37.180
The more extreme, the more ideological.

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00:19:37.180 --> 00:19:39.920
And those are the people
that, if you’re in office,

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00:19:39.920 --> 00:19:41.770
you’re accountable to,
you’re worried about.

435
00:19:41.770 --> 00:19:44.970
They can take you out, as they took out
Robert Bennett in Utah.

436
00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:46.200
Yeah, so—

437
00:19:46.200 --> 00:19:49.760
AMY GOODMAN: How did what you’re
describing help Ted Cruz become senator?

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00:19:49.760 --> 00:19:51.870
MICKEY EDWARDS: Oh, it’s—so you wonder:

439
00:19:51.870 --> 00:19:54.690
How did somebody like Ted Cruz
get to be a senator?

440
00:19:54.690 --> 00:19:56.420
You know, and God help, you know,

441
00:19:56.420 --> 00:19:57.880
if he runs for president, right?

442
00:19:59.390 --> 00:20:02.630
What happened is that he had a primary
against David Dewhurst,

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00:20:02.630 --> 00:20:04.140
who was the lieutenant governor,

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00:20:04.140 --> 00:20:07.590
had carried Texas
overwhelmingly three times.

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00:20:07.590 --> 00:20:09.690
And in the primary, Dewhurst

446
00:20:09.690 --> 00:20:12.000
beat Cruz badly, by 12 points.

447
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:14.890
But they had to have a runoff,
because there were more candidates.

448
00:20:14.890 --> 00:20:16.560
In that runoff,

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00:20:16.560 --> 00:20:18.980
the total vote that Cruz

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00:20:18.980 --> 00:20:23.170
got amounted to 2 percent
of the population of Texas.

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00:20:23.170 --> 00:20:25.480
But because of that law, Dewhurst,

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00:20:25.480 --> 00:20:27.400
who would have beaten him
in the general election,

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00:20:27.400 --> 00:20:28.820
was not allowed to run.

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00:20:28.820 --> 00:20:32.920
And so Cruz became the only Republican
allowed to be on the ballot

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00:20:32.920 --> 00:20:34.770
in a heavily Republican state.

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00:20:34.770 --> 00:20:38.030
And that’s all across America
that is that way.

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00:20:38.030 --> 00:20:40.510
That’s how Mike Lee,
who helped Cruz have

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00:20:40.510 --> 00:20:42.320
this temporary government
shutdown—that’s

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00:20:42.320 --> 00:20:44.310
how he got elected by a convention

460
00:20:44.310 --> 00:20:47.570
that had one-tenth of 1 percent
of the population there.

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00:20:47.570 --> 00:20:50.760
And they eliminated Robert Bennett,
who had been the longtime senator,

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00:20:50.760 --> 00:20:52.360
who could not be on the ballot.
AMY GOODMAN: Of Utah.

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00:20:52.360 --> 00:20:54.560
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, so, I mean, it’s—
AMY GOODMAN: And explain—

464
00:20:54.560 --> 00:20:56.170
MICKEY EDWARDS: We’ve created
a bad system.

465
00:20:56.170 --> 00:20:59.680
AMY GOODMAN: I think people don’t quite
understand, if they’re not, for example,

466
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.420
in an open primary state
like Ohio, what that is.

467
00:21:02.420 --> 00:21:04.550
MICKEY EDWARDS: Well, Ohio
is not an open primary state.

468
00:21:04.550 --> 00:21:08.640
You can cross over, but you can only
vote in one. You know—yeah.

469
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:10.170
AMY GOODMAN: Well, so, explain.
MICKEY EDWARDS: Well—

470
00:21:10.170 --> 00:21:12.610
AMY GOODMAN: You can,
as a Democrat in Ohio,

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00:21:12.610 --> 00:21:14.480
vote for Donald Trump.
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yes,

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00:21:14.480 --> 00:21:17.790
but if you do that, you can’t vote
in the Democratic primary.

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00:21:17.790 --> 00:21:20.100
You know, so,
an open primary is like the ones

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00:21:20.100 --> 00:21:22.450
you have in California,
Washington state,

475
00:21:22.450 --> 00:21:24.580
where everybody runs on the same ballot,

476
00:21:24.580 --> 00:21:28.380
and every single voter gets to choose
among all their options.

477
00:21:28.380 --> 00:21:30.400
That’s a much more democratic system.

478
00:21:30.400 --> 00:21:33.790
AMY GOODMAN: And explain how
these evolve in each different state.

479
00:21:34.350 --> 00:21:36.170
MICKEY EDWARDS: Well, you know,
what happened was,

480
00:21:36.170 --> 00:21:39.530
in the progressive movement,
there’s a move—you know,

481
00:21:39.530 --> 00:21:43.050
it was obviously a correct decision
to give the people more voice,

482
00:21:43.050 --> 00:21:45.040
not closed rooms, you know,

483
00:21:45.040 --> 00:21:47.650
with a few people
smoking cigars deciding

484
00:21:47.650 --> 00:21:49.710
who’s going
to be the nominee.

485
00:21:49.710 --> 00:21:51.700
But the unintended consequence is,

486
00:21:51.700 --> 00:21:54.470
because most Americans
don’t vote in primaries,

487
00:21:54.470 --> 00:21:57.550
don’t even know—they’re not aware there
are primaries, you know,

488
00:21:57.550 --> 00:22:01.660
that, state by state, they stay home,

489
00:22:01.660 --> 00:22:04.850
and the extremes dominate
who can be on the ballot.

490
00:22:04.850 --> 00:22:07.080
You know, if that—if we saw

491
00:22:07.080 --> 00:22:08.380
that a small group of people

492
00:22:08.380 --> 00:22:11.790
could keep others
off the ballot in Peru,

493
00:22:11.790 --> 00:22:13.710
we would condemn it, you know.

494
00:22:13.710 --> 00:22:14.950
But that’s our system.

495
00:22:14.950 --> 00:22:18.220
The same thing, we allow small groups
of people in the legislature

496
00:22:18.220 --> 00:22:21.330
to decide who can vote,
by gerrymandering, you know,

497
00:22:21.330 --> 00:22:22.630
who can vote in that election.
You know, so—

498
00:22:22.630 --> 00:22:24.490
AMY GOODMAN: Now, explain what you mean.
This is another critical

499
00:22:24.490 --> 00:22:25.970
point in the United States—
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, yeah.

500
00:22:25.970 --> 00:22:27.360
AMY GOODMAN: —the issue
of the—of redistricting—

501
00:22:27.360 --> 00:22:28.490
MICKEY EDWARDS: The redistricting.

502
00:22:28.490 --> 00:22:31.910
AMY GOODMAN: —and who writes
up the—determines the districts.

503
00:22:31.910 --> 00:22:33.790
MICKEY EDWARDS: In 37 states,

504
00:22:33.790 --> 00:22:37.400
it is whoever controls
the state legislature.

505
00:22:37.400 --> 00:22:40.340
So, you’ve got maybe a hundred people
in the state legislature.

506
00:22:40.340 --> 00:22:42.620
They have their own partisan agenda.

507
00:22:42.620 --> 00:22:44.730
They draw congressional district lines

508
00:22:44.730 --> 00:22:46.410
to make sure
that the people

509
00:22:46.410 --> 00:22:48.410
who they agree with, you know,

510
00:22:48.410 --> 00:22:51.100
win by taking the other people
out of the district.

511
00:22:51.100 --> 00:22:54.530
You know, again, if this were
some other country—you know,

512
00:22:54.530 --> 00:22:56.540
I was on the—I was the ranking member

513
00:22:56.540 --> 00:22:59.410
of the Foreign Operations Subcommittee
in Congress, you know,

514
00:22:59.410 --> 00:23:02.030
gave foreign aid—made
foreign aid decisions.

515
00:23:02.030 --> 00:23:05.340
And we had a bias
in favor of democracies.

516
00:23:05.340 --> 00:23:07.460
I’m not sure America would qualify.

517
00:23:07.460 --> 00:23:12.340
And so, it’s not the way
the Constitution is set up,

518
00:23:12.340 --> 00:23:15.460
but it’s the way
we’ve allowed our political parties

519
00:23:15.460 --> 00:23:17.540
to dominate our process

520
00:23:17.540 --> 00:23:19.890
and decide who can run,
who can be on the ballot,

521
00:23:19.890 --> 00:23:21.970
who can vote in that election.
It’s absurd.

522
00:23:21.970 --> 00:23:23.720
AMY GOODMAN: I want to talk
with you about Donald Trump,

523
00:23:23.720 --> 00:23:25.250
also climate change.
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah.

524
00:23:25.250 --> 00:23:27.440
AMY GOODMAN: I want to talk
about the Supreme Court nominations.

525
00:23:27.440 --> 00:23:30.940
We’re talking to former Republican
Congressmember Mickey Edwards,

526
00:23:30.940 --> 00:23:32.970
served 16 years

527
00:23:32.970 --> 00:23:34.850
as a congressman from Oklahoma.

528
00:23:34.850 --> 00:23:37.810
He chaired the Republican
Policy Committee,

529
00:23:37.810 --> 00:23:40.880
a founding trustee
of the Heritage Foundation.

530
00:23:40.880 --> 00:23:48.710
This is Democracy Now!
We’ll be back in a minute.

531
00:24:58.560 --> 00:25:08.330
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going

532
00:25:08.330 --> 00:25:12.540
to be speaking to a scholar
on fascism in our last segment,

533
00:25:12.540 --> 00:25:14.760
as Robert Reich talks

534
00:25:14.760 --> 00:25:17.900
about Donald Trump
being "the American fascist."

535
00:25:17.900 --> 00:25:19.600
Is this true?
But right now,

536
00:25:19.600 --> 00:25:21.000
we’re talking
to Mickey Edwards,

537
00:25:21.000 --> 00:25:24.370
served 16 years as
a Republican congressman from Oklahoma,

538
00:25:24.370 --> 00:25:26.380
chaired the Republican Policy Committee,

539
00:25:26.380 --> 00:25:29.030
wrote the book The Parties
Versus the People:

540
00:25:29.030 --> 00:25:32.730
How to Turn Republicans
and Democrats into Americans.

541
00:25:33.350 --> 00:25:34.550
Let’s talk Donald Trump.

542
00:25:34.550 --> 00:25:37.020
How did he rise to this point?

543
00:25:37.020 --> 00:25:38.170
Has it surprised you?

544
00:25:39.190 --> 00:25:41.940
MICKEY EDWARDS: You know,
it bothers me a lot,

545
00:25:41.940 --> 00:25:43.180
the things he says.

546
00:25:43.180 --> 00:25:45.940
I don’t think
comparing him, say,

547
00:25:45.940 --> 00:25:48.790
to the rise of a Mussolini is unfair.

548
00:25:48.790 --> 00:25:53.680
I mean, I think there is
this bias, this bigotry,

549
00:25:53.680 --> 00:25:55.700
this roughing up people

550
00:25:55.700 --> 00:25:58.900
who come to primaries—I mean,
to his rallies.

551
00:25:58.900 --> 00:26:00.390
I think that’s valid.

552
00:26:00.390 --> 00:26:05.220
I do think that when people like Obama

553
00:26:05.220 --> 00:26:09.260
and the left try to say
this is Republicans,

554
00:26:09.260 --> 00:26:11.430
I think they undermine
their own credibility,

555
00:26:11.430 --> 00:26:15.040
because if you look, there’s been
23—not counting today,

556
00:26:15.040 --> 00:26:17.650
23 Republican primaries and caucuses;

557
00:26:18.170 --> 00:26:21.460
not one of them has
Trump got a majority.

558
00:26:21.460 --> 00:26:25.620
You know, in most—in 17 of them,

559
00:26:25.620 --> 00:26:29.400
there—he has then had
two-thirds to 70 percent

560
00:26:29.400 --> 00:26:30.960
of Republicans vote against him.

561
00:26:30.960 --> 00:26:33.560
This is not
the Republican Party, you know,

562
00:26:33.560 --> 00:26:37.140
but there is some force
out there that is angry,

563
00:26:37.140 --> 00:26:41.590
that is—they’re outraged
about something.

564
00:26:41.590 --> 00:26:42.840
Who knows what?

565
00:26:43.470 --> 00:26:45.820
And it’s dangerous.
I mean, look, I think—

566
00:26:45.820 --> 00:26:48.290
AMY GOODMAN: I mean, there are more
Republicans coming out to vote now—

567
00:26:48.290 --> 00:26:49.140
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: —than ever before.

568
00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:51.120
But still, that’s only something

569
00:26:51.120 --> 00:26:53.580
like 17 percent.
MICKEY EDWARDS: Right.

570
00:26:53.580 --> 00:26:55.450
AMY GOODMAN: And he’s getting less
than half of that.

571
00:26:55.450 --> 00:26:57.460
MICKEY EDWARDS: Right, right.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, Democrats are also up,

572
00:26:57.460 --> 00:26:58.810
despite this fact—
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, yeah.

573
00:26:58.810 --> 00:27:00.600
AMY GOODMAN: —that Donald
Trump says they’re down.

574
00:27:00.600 --> 00:27:04.180
But less than 12 percent of Democrats
are coming out to vote in the primaries.

575
00:27:04.180 --> 00:27:06.640
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, yeah.
And part of it is that,

576
00:27:06.640 --> 00:27:08.700
you know,
Hillary

577
00:27:08.700 --> 00:27:11.780
doesn’t generate as much—I mean,
she’s been around a long time.

578
00:27:11.780 --> 00:27:14.230
She doesn’t generate as much enthusiasm.

579
00:27:14.230 --> 00:27:18.090
But I think we have to keep—the fact

580
00:27:18.090 --> 00:27:21.450
that Donald Trump
is getting—he’s winning

581
00:27:21.450 --> 00:27:23.830
because he’s got all these people
running against him,

582
00:27:23.830 --> 00:27:25.620
and they’re dividing up the vote.

583
00:27:25.620 --> 00:27:29.210
The overwhelming majority,
in state after state after state,

584
00:27:29.210 --> 00:27:31.690
of Republicans can’t stand Donald Trump.

585
00:27:32.350 --> 00:27:34.540
You know, and so,
when people try to say,

586
00:27:34.540 --> 00:27:35.810
"Oh, this is Republicans,

587
00:27:35.810 --> 00:27:39.210
Republicans brought this
on themselves," I mean, that’s nonsense.

588
00:27:39.210 --> 00:27:44.140
You know, Donald Trump is a standalone,
scary dude. He really is.

589
00:27:44.140 --> 00:27:45.850
AMY GOODMAN: Did you have any dealings
with him?

590
00:27:45.850 --> 00:27:47.800
Did you know him?
MICKEY EDWARDS: No. Are you kidding me?

591
00:27:47.800 --> 00:27:52.280
I try to be more careful
about the people I associate with.

592
00:27:52.280 --> 00:27:54.170
AMY GOODMAN: I mean,
Donald Trump is not alone

593
00:27:54.170 --> 00:27:55.370
when talking about, you know,

594
00:27:55.370 --> 00:27:57.340
sort of scorched-earth policies

595
00:27:57.340 --> 00:27:59.010
after 9/11,

596
00:27:59.010 --> 00:28:00.980
in talking about foreign policy.

597
00:28:00.980 --> 00:28:02.690
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah.

598
00:28:02.690 --> 00:28:05.870
AMY GOODMAN: And he’s not alone,
sort of led the candidates,

599
00:28:05.870 --> 00:28:08.070
when talking about waterboarding.

600
00:28:08.070 --> 00:28:10.730
DONALD TRUMP: We’re going
to rebuild our military.

601
00:28:11.510 --> 00:28:15.870
We’re going to knock out
ISIS so violently and so fast.

602
00:28:16.470 --> 00:28:18.080
They chop off heads.

603
00:28:18.080 --> 00:28:21.400
They do things that we haven’t seen
since medieval times,

604
00:28:21.910 --> 00:28:23.240
and we’re worried about waterboarding.

605
00:28:23.240 --> 00:28:24.620
So here, very—wait, wait, wait.

606
00:28:24.620 --> 00:28:26.310
Sit down. Sit down.
Let me just tell you.

607
00:28:26.310 --> 00:28:27.560
OK? Excuse me.

608
00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:30.230
So I want to stay within the laws,

609
00:28:30.230 --> 00:28:32.140
and right now we have the laws,

610
00:28:32.870 --> 00:28:35.610
but I want to make those laws

611
00:28:35.610 --> 00:28:38.640
stronger so that we can better compete

612
00:28:38.640 --> 00:28:41.720
with a vicious group of animals, OK?

613
00:28:43.230 --> 00:28:44.660
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Donald Trump.

614
00:28:44.660 --> 00:28:46.820
Former Congressmember Mickey Edwards?

615
00:28:46.820 --> 00:28:49.280
MICKEY EDWARDS: You know,
he wants to deal with the animals

616
00:28:49.280 --> 00:28:50.640
by making us animals.

617
00:28:51.310 --> 00:28:53.480
You know, the fact of the matter is,

618
00:28:53.480 --> 00:28:55.200
yes, they may cut off heads,

619
00:28:55.200 --> 00:28:56.430
but we don’t waterboard,

620
00:28:56.430 --> 00:28:58.460
because we’re America, we’re different.

621
00:28:58.460 --> 00:29:00.570
You know, our Constitution

622
00:29:00.570 --> 00:29:04.710
prohibits habeas corpus being suspended,

623
00:29:05.210 --> 00:29:08.010
even though George W. Bush ignored that.

624
00:29:10.150 --> 00:29:11.550
It is not us.

625
00:29:11.550 --> 00:29:13.820
We don’t commit torture.

626
00:29:13.820 --> 00:29:16.130
We’re not ISIS. And—

627
00:29:16.130 --> 00:29:18.300
AMY GOODMAN: George W. Bush was in power
for eight years.

628
00:29:18.300 --> 00:29:19.670
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, I know.
I know.

629
00:29:19.670 --> 00:29:23.320
And some of the stuff
he did was outrageous, too.

630
00:29:23.320 --> 00:29:26.490
It was—you know, this is not
Republican or Democrat.

631
00:29:26.490 --> 00:29:28.690
This is a problem with people

632
00:29:28.690 --> 00:29:31.650
who forget what American values
are supposed to be.

633
00:29:31.650 --> 00:29:33.710
AMY GOODMAN: Soon after you left office,

634
00:29:34.500 --> 00:29:36.710
Timothy McVeigh blew up
the Oklahoma City building.

635
00:29:36.710 --> 00:29:38.520
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yes, he did.
AMY GOODMAN: Right? April 19, 1995.

636
00:29:38.520 --> 00:29:39.930
MICKEY EDWARDS: And I had friends
in that building

637
00:29:39.930 --> 00:29:41.830
who died in that building, yeah.

638
00:29:41.830 --> 00:29:43.830
That was my district.
AMY GOODMAN: The horror of that.

639
00:29:43.830 --> 00:29:46.920
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: What, 163 people died?

640
00:29:46.920 --> 00:29:49.030
MICKEY EDWARDS: Children, babies,
too, yeah.

641
00:29:49.030 --> 00:29:53.000
AMY GOODMAN: Talk
about how the Oklahoma City bombing

642
00:29:53.000 --> 00:29:56.700
was treated differently
than any other terrorist attack.

643
00:29:56.700 --> 00:29:59.460
I mean, he was a white, Christian,

644
00:29:59.460 --> 00:30:00.710
Army vet.

645
00:30:02.010 --> 00:30:06.700
MICKEY EDWARDS: And he was on trial
in the United States,

646
00:30:06.700 --> 00:30:08.400
in our court system,

647
00:30:08.400 --> 00:30:11.290
and he was found guilty,
and he was executed.

648
00:30:12.500 --> 00:30:14.370
And so, what I compare

649
00:30:14.370 --> 00:30:16.640
that to is now the argument

650
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.230
that is being made
by a lot of people

651
00:30:19.230 --> 00:30:20.670
in my party, you know,

652
00:30:20.670 --> 00:30:23.400
that you can’t close Guantánamo

653
00:30:23.400 --> 00:30:25.600
and bring people back to stand trial,

654
00:30:25.600 --> 00:30:27.870
as though our court systems don’t work.

655
00:30:27.870 --> 00:30:30.670
Well, it certainly worked
in the case of Timothy McVeigh.

656
00:30:30.670 --> 00:30:32.370
You know, it worked
in the case of the people

657
00:30:32.370 --> 00:30:35.230
who did the bombing
at the Boston Marathon.

658
00:30:35.230 --> 00:30:37.140
You know, our court systems can work.

659
00:30:37.140 --> 00:30:39.000
And so, some of this stuff,

660
00:30:39.000 --> 00:30:40.710
like we can’t bring them here

661
00:30:40.710 --> 00:30:41.900
and put them on trial—I mean,

662
00:30:42.880 --> 00:30:46.700
we’ve got people in my party
who are acting like absolute cowards.

663
00:30:47.320 --> 00:30:50.000
You know, like,
do they still believe in America?

664
00:30:50.000 --> 00:30:52.560
Do they still believe
in our justice system?

665
00:30:52.560 --> 00:30:55.570
I don’t know.
I’m worried about, you know,

666
00:30:55.570 --> 00:30:58.490
what’s driving this willingness

667
00:30:58.490 --> 00:31:00.960
to set aside
all of our values

668
00:31:00.960 --> 00:31:02.170
in order to—you know,

669
00:31:02.790 --> 00:31:04.970
because we’re terrified.
AMY GOODMAN: Congressman Edwards,

670
00:31:04.970 --> 00:31:08.850
what happened
to the Heritage Foundation?

671
00:31:08.850 --> 00:31:10.970
What did you establish it as?

672
00:31:10.970 --> 00:31:12.930
Where do you think it is today?
MICKEY EDWARDS: Interesting story.

673
00:31:12.930 --> 00:31:15.880
So, I wrote a book earlier,
before this book.

674
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:17.930
It was called Reclaiming Conservatism.

675
00:31:17.930 --> 00:31:19.850
It’s looking at
how American conservatism

676
00:31:19.850 --> 00:31:22.010
had changed over the years.

677
00:31:22.010 --> 00:31:25.800
And so, I gave a speech
at the Heritage Foundation.

678
00:31:25.800 --> 00:31:27.650
They weren’t going to invite me.
They wouldn’t let me come in.

679
00:31:27.650 --> 00:31:28.870
I said, "I was
one of your founders.

680
00:31:28.870 --> 00:31:30.220
You’re not going
to tell me I can’t come."

681
00:31:30.220 --> 00:31:31.530
So, you know, I went.

682
00:31:31.530 --> 00:31:33.130
They let me in.
And the person

683
00:31:33.130 --> 00:31:37.510
who introduced me first started talking
to the people in the audience

684
00:31:37.510 --> 00:31:39.940
and saying, "Let us tell you
about the Heritage Foundation.

685
00:31:39.940 --> 00:31:42.230
Here’s what we’re for.
We’re for strong defense

686
00:31:42.230 --> 00:31:43.870
and less regulation

687
00:31:43.870 --> 00:31:46.770
and for fighting
for traditional social values."

688
00:31:46.770 --> 00:31:48.580
And I got up, and I said,
"Wait a minute.

689
00:31:48.580 --> 00:31:52.700
You know, I helped write
the mission statement in 1973.

690
00:31:52.700 --> 00:31:56.890
There was nothing about traditional
social values in it until 1993."

691
00:31:56.890 --> 00:32:00.480
So, little by little—the Heritage

692
00:32:00.480 --> 00:32:03.470
Foundation
started—it was a think tank.

693
00:32:03.470 --> 00:32:04.910
That’s all it was.
It was a think tank

694
00:32:04.910 --> 00:32:06.410
to come up with a way

695
00:32:06.410 --> 00:32:09.600
to frame conservative views

696
00:32:09.600 --> 00:32:10.830
in policy terms.

697
00:32:10.830 --> 00:32:12.790
And little by—
AMY GOODMAN: And what is it today?

698
00:32:12.790 --> 00:32:15.450
MICKEY EDWARDS: Oh, well,
Jim DeMint took it over.

699
00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:17.670
He’s turned it into an activist group,

700
00:32:17.670 --> 00:32:20.500
an advocacy group
for the far right.

701
00:32:21.570 --> 00:32:24.220
So, here, I don’t recognize it anymore.

702
00:32:24.220 --> 00:32:25.790
I was one of their founders,

703
00:32:25.790 --> 00:32:28.040
but that was
a totally different organization

704
00:32:28.040 --> 00:32:30.160
when we founded it in 1973.

705
00:32:31.070 --> 00:32:33.940
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn
to the issue of climate change.

706
00:32:33.940 --> 00:32:37.120
This was a pretty interesting moment.

707
00:32:37.120 --> 00:32:39.890
In an exchange
from last week’s CNN debate,

708
00:32:41.160 --> 00:32:42.750
actually climate change came up,

709
00:32:42.750 --> 00:32:44.600
which is very rare
in these debates.

710
00:32:44.600 --> 00:32:47.030
This is moderator Jake Tapper

711
00:32:47.030 --> 00:32:49.610
addressing Florida Senator Marco Rubio.

712
00:32:50.290 --> 00:32:52.690
JAKE TAPPER: I reached out
to the Republican mayor

713
00:32:52.690 --> 00:32:54.740
of Miami, Tomás Regalado,

714
00:32:54.740 --> 00:32:57.610
to find out what he wanted
to hear from you this evening.

715
00:32:57.610 --> 00:33:00.650
Mayor Regalado told me, quote,

716
00:33:00.650 --> 00:33:03.270
"Climate change
means rising ocean levels,

717
00:33:03.270 --> 00:33:06.730
which in South Florida means flooding
downtown and in our neighborhoods."

718
00:33:06.730 --> 00:33:10.130
... Senator Rubio,
the Miami mayor has endorsed you.

719
00:33:10.130 --> 00:33:12.940
Will you honor his request for a pledge

720
00:33:12.940 --> 00:33:15.710
and acknowledge the reality
of the scientific consensus

721
00:33:15.710 --> 00:33:17.240
of climate change and pledge
to do something about it?

722
00:33:17.240 --> 00:33:18.470
SEN. MARCO RUBIO: Well, sure,
the climate is changing.

723
00:33:18.470 --> 00:33:20.310
And one of the reasons
why the climate is changing

724
00:33:20.310 --> 00:33:22.480
is because the climate
has always been changing.

725
00:33:22.480 --> 00:33:25.220
... So, on the issue of flooding
in Miami, it’s caused by two things.

726
00:33:25.220 --> 00:33:26.560
Number one, South Florida

727
00:33:26.560 --> 00:33:28.830
is largely built on land
that was once a swamp.

728
00:33:28.830 --> 00:33:31.540
And number two, because if
there is higher sea levels

729
00:33:31.540 --> 00:33:33.220
or whatever it may be—be happening,

730
00:33:33.220 --> 00:33:34.820
we do need to deal
with that through mitigation.

731
00:33:34.820 --> 00:33:37.200
And I have long supported
mitigation efforts.

732
00:33:37.200 --> 00:33:39.400
But as far as a law
that we can pass in Washington

733
00:33:39.400 --> 00:33:41.640
to change the weather,
there’s no such thing.

734
00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:44.030
On the contrary,
there is a—there is laws

735
00:33:44.030 --> 00:33:46.440
they want us to pass—there are laws

736
00:33:46.440 --> 00:33:49.100
they want us to pass that would be
devastating for our economy.

737
00:33:49.100 --> 00:33:51.690
The—or these programs like
what the president’s put in

738
00:33:51.690 --> 00:33:53.650
with the Clean Power Act
or all these sorts of things

739
00:33:53.650 --> 00:33:56.400
that he’s forcing down our throat
on the war on coal.

740
00:33:56.400 --> 00:33:58.350
Let me tell you who’s going
to pay the price of that:

741
00:33:58.350 --> 00:34:00.370
Americans are going to pay
the price of that.

742
00:34:00.370 --> 00:34:02.710
The cost of doing that is going
to be rammed down the throat

743
00:34:02.710 --> 00:34:04.120
of the American consumer,

744
00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:06.250
the single parent, the working family,

745
00:34:06.250 --> 00:34:08.280
who are going to see increases
in the cost of living.

746
00:34:08.810 --> 00:34:10.790
AMY GOODMAN: That is Marco Rubio,

747
00:34:10.790 --> 00:34:13.560
who is hoping to win
his home state of Florida.

748
00:34:14.690 --> 00:34:16.770
Can you talk about the—
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, "Little Marco,"

749
00:34:16.770 --> 00:34:18.090
as he’s called, right, yes.

750
00:34:18.090 --> 00:34:19.120
AMY GOODMAN: Well,
you’re quoting the man

751
00:34:19.120 --> 00:34:20.560
you don’t like very much, Donald Trump.
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah.

752
00:34:20.560 --> 00:34:21.850
Yeah, I know.
AMY GOODMAN: But can you talk

753
00:34:21.850 --> 00:34:24.700
about Republicans and climate change?

754
00:34:26.130 --> 00:34:27.850
MICKEY EDWARDS: You know,
I think Republicans have been

755
00:34:27.850 --> 00:34:32.350
looking at climate
change mostly as

756
00:34:32.350 --> 00:34:35.510
how any of the changes
or any of the mitigation,

757
00:34:35.510 --> 00:34:37.870
whatever, are going to affect economics,

758
00:34:37.870 --> 00:34:39.650
how it’s going
to affect growth,

759
00:34:39.650 --> 00:34:41.160
how it’s going to affect jobs.

760
00:34:41.160 --> 00:34:42.860
And, you know,
that’s a—that’s a legitimate—

761
00:34:42.860 --> 00:34:44.450
AMY GOODMAN: But in so doing,
they deny the science.

762
00:34:44.450 --> 00:34:46.420
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah,
that’s a legitimate concern.

763
00:34:46.420 --> 00:34:48.710
But if there—you know, let’s say

764
00:34:48.710 --> 00:34:51.890
that there’s
only 5 percent chance

765
00:34:51.890 --> 00:34:53.660
that it is human activity,

766
00:34:53.660 --> 00:34:56.140
only 5 percent chance
that it’s human activity

767
00:34:56.140 --> 00:34:57.850
that is affecting the changes

768
00:34:57.850 --> 00:35:00.610
in the climate
that are potentially dangerous.

769
00:35:00.610 --> 00:35:03.390
Then you still do something
about it, right?

770
00:35:03.390 --> 00:35:06.960
I mean, that’s—if there was
a 5 percent chance

771
00:35:06.960 --> 00:35:09.460
of anything else
that could be really dramatic

772
00:35:09.460 --> 00:35:11.210
and bad, you would try to do something.

773
00:35:11.210 --> 00:35:12.950
AMY GOODMAN: Like a terrorist attacking?
MICKEY EDWARDS: Right, exactly.

774
00:35:12.950 --> 00:35:14.720
You know, Dick Cheney

775
00:35:14.720 --> 00:35:17.310
and George W. Bush, when they were
in the White House, you know,

776
00:35:17.310 --> 00:35:19.530
if there was a 1 percent chance

777
00:35:19.530 --> 00:35:21.090
that there could be a terrorist attack,

778
00:35:21.090 --> 00:35:22.850
you’ve got to do something
to prevent it.

779
00:35:22.850 --> 00:35:26.070
Well, you know, this is
pretty serious stuff.

780
00:35:26.070 --> 00:35:27.540
And if there’s
a 5 percent chance

781
00:35:27.540 --> 00:35:31.050
that what we’re doing
is contributing to the change,

782
00:35:31.050 --> 00:35:33.480
even just a partial contribution,

783
00:35:33.480 --> 00:35:36.670
then you have to take some action
to try to deal with it.

784
00:35:36.670 --> 00:35:41.440
And it seems to be—it’s not
climate denial.

785
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:43.550
It’s not scientific denial.

786
00:35:43.550 --> 00:35:46.670
It’s a refusal to look
at the whole picture.

787
00:35:46.670 --> 00:35:50.000
And all it is is about
how do you create jobs.

788
00:35:50.000 --> 00:35:52.560
And, you know, that’s a piece
of the puzzle.

789
00:35:52.560 --> 00:35:54.960
But, you know,

790
00:35:54.960 --> 00:35:57.580
I can’t take Marco seriously
when he does that.

791
00:35:57.580 --> 00:35:58.850
AMY GOODMAN: And it’s not,
of course, Marco;

792
00:35:58.850 --> 00:36:00.240
it’s across the board.
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, sure.

793
00:36:00.240 --> 00:36:02.650
AMY GOODMAN: Donald Trump said
he was refusing to go see the pope

794
00:36:02.650 --> 00:36:05.540
because the pope was talking
about climate change.

795
00:36:05.540 --> 00:36:07.830
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, well,
I don’t include Donald Trump

796
00:36:07.830 --> 00:36:09.650
in any other category here.

797
00:36:09.650 --> 00:36:11.230
He’s Donald Trump.
What scares me,

798
00:36:11.230 --> 00:36:12.740
though—you keep
bringing back Donald Trump.

799
00:36:12.740 --> 00:36:14.400
So, he scares me.

800
00:36:14.400 --> 00:36:17.200
You know what scares me
a lot more than Donald Trump?

801
00:36:17.200 --> 00:36:20.450
It’s the tens of thousands of people
who come out to those rallies

802
00:36:20.450 --> 00:36:22.470
and cheer for him.
That’s scary.

803
00:36:22.470 --> 00:36:24.780
That is a really scary development

804
00:36:25.490 --> 00:36:26.990
in American politics.

805
00:36:26.990 --> 00:36:28.800
We’ve seen it happen before.

806
00:36:28.800 --> 00:36:30.490
We’ve seen it happen in Europe.

807
00:36:30.490 --> 00:36:33.110
And I don’t think
we should take it lightly.

808
00:36:33.110 --> 00:36:35.450
And if there is a chance,

809
00:36:35.450 --> 00:36:37.190
you know, through a brokered convention,

810
00:36:37.190 --> 00:36:40.100
through whatever—if there’s a chance
to stop that man

811
00:36:40.100 --> 00:36:42.000
from becoming one of the two candidates

812
00:36:42.000 --> 00:36:44.020
for president,
we’ve got to—we’ve got to do it.

813
00:36:44.020 --> 00:36:46.220
AMY GOODMAN: Explain what a brokered
convention would look like.

814
00:36:46.220 --> 00:36:47.250
I think a lot of people—
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah.

815
00:36:47.250 --> 00:36:49.160
AMY GOODMAN: —have trouble
understanding this.

816
00:36:50.890 --> 00:36:53.530
MICKEY EDWARDS: This is
why John Kasich’s race today in Ohio

817
00:36:53.530 --> 00:36:54.890
is so important,

818
00:36:54.890 --> 00:36:59.420
because to win the nomination
at the convention, Trump

819
00:36:59.420 --> 00:37:02.330
needs to receive, you know,
a certain number of delegates.

820
00:37:02.330 --> 00:37:03.940
You’ve got to keep him
from getting there.

821
00:37:03.940 --> 00:37:07.480
Once that happens,
there are so many Republicans

822
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:08.880
who are opposed to Trump

823
00:37:08.880 --> 00:37:11.230
that if he hasn’t sewn it up,

824
00:37:11.230 --> 00:37:13.380
gotten all the delegates he needs,

825
00:37:13.380 --> 00:37:15.250
then you can start working on the floor,

826
00:37:15.250 --> 00:37:18.170
and you can say, "Amy,
you know, you’re committed.

827
00:37:18.170 --> 00:37:20.260
You have a commitment here.

828
00:37:20.260 --> 00:37:21.780
But after the first ballot,

829
00:37:22.280 --> 00:37:25.120
when he falls short,
you’re not committed anymore.

830
00:37:25.120 --> 00:37:27.250
And so let’s talk to you
about what’s realistic.

831
00:37:27.250 --> 00:37:28.730
Who can win the election?"

832
00:37:28.730 --> 00:37:29.950
you know, and so forth.

833
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:34.480
What bothers me—kind of morphing
off it—what bothers

834
00:37:34.480 --> 00:37:36.640
me is hearing my fellow Republicans

835
00:37:36.640 --> 00:37:39.690
talk about Donald Trump
being bad for the party.

836
00:37:39.690 --> 00:37:41.280
Who cares about the party?

837
00:37:41.280 --> 00:37:43.040
He’s going to bad for America.

838
00:37:44.040 --> 00:37:46.590
And the idea
that some of our candidates,

839
00:37:46.590 --> 00:37:50.100
who have accurately talked
about his bigotry

840
00:37:50.100 --> 00:37:51.480
and all that stuff, then say, "Oh,

841
00:37:51.480 --> 00:37:54.830
but if he gets the nomination,
we’ll support him," that’s absurd.

842
00:37:55.780 --> 00:37:58.870
AMY GOODMAN: Ted Cruz won your state,
won Oklahoma.

843
00:37:58.870 --> 00:38:00.810
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yes, he did.
Well, I—you know,

844
00:38:00.810 --> 00:38:02.040
I don’t like Ted Cruz at all,

845
00:38:02.040 --> 00:38:03.370
but I’m glad

846
00:38:03.370 --> 00:38:04.910
that he stopped Donald Trump there.

847
00:38:06.100 --> 00:38:08.090
It’s amazing.
You know, there are people—

848
00:38:08.090 --> 00:38:09.980
AMY GOODMAN: What do you most object
to about Ted Cruz?

849
00:38:11.790 --> 00:38:15.720
MICKEY EDWARDS: Ted Cruz—you know,
there are 320 million Americans.

850
00:38:15.720 --> 00:38:18.140
We’re very diverse.
You know, look at your audience.

851
00:38:18.140 --> 00:38:19.930
You know, we’re a very diverse country.

852
00:38:19.930 --> 00:38:24.350
The only way you can govern a country
like this is through compromise,

853
00:38:24.350 --> 00:38:26.300
through being able
to sit down together.

854
00:38:26.300 --> 00:38:27.890
Nobody gets all that they want.

855
00:38:27.890 --> 00:38:29.550
He doesn’t believe in compromise.

856
00:38:29.550 --> 00:38:31.870
You know, he believes
in "this is my plan,

857
00:38:31.870 --> 00:38:33.180
this is what we’re going to do."

858
00:38:34.630 --> 00:38:38.620
I think that’s why people like Bob Dole,
it’s people—you know,

859
00:38:38.620 --> 00:38:41.060
and members—other members of Congress

860
00:38:41.060 --> 00:38:43.890
would rather even have Trump
than have Ted Cruz,

861
00:38:43.890 --> 00:38:46.310
because they think
they can deal maybe with Trump.

862
00:38:46.310 --> 00:38:47.510
They can’t deal with Cruz.

863
00:38:47.510 --> 00:38:50.790
Cruz is like a block of concrete.

864
00:38:50.790 --> 00:38:52.230
AMY GOODMAN: If Donald

865
00:38:52.230 --> 00:38:53.580
Trump got
the Republican

866
00:38:53.580 --> 00:38:55.120
nomination, would you vote for him?
MICKEY EDWARDS: Oh, no.

867
00:38:55.120 --> 00:38:56.280
AMY GOODMAN: You’re a longtime
Republican congressman.

868
00:38:56.280 --> 00:38:57.910
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah, well, no.
Would I vote for Donald Trump?

869
00:38:57.910 --> 00:39:00.050
Never. You know, I—
AMY GOODMAN: Who would you vote for?

870
00:39:00.050 --> 00:39:02.970
MICKEY EDWARDS: Well, my choices
at that point would be, you know,

871
00:39:02.970 --> 00:39:05.760
either to not vote at all

872
00:39:05.760 --> 00:39:07.700
or to vote for the Democratic candidate,

873
00:39:07.700 --> 00:39:09.530
if I thought not voting at all

874
00:39:09.530 --> 00:39:12.110
would increase the chances
of Trump winning.

875
00:39:12.110 --> 00:39:16.160
I mean, I think it’s—some of the—

876
00:39:16.160 --> 00:39:18.280
AMY GOODMAN: You come from the state
of Woody Guthrie.

877
00:39:18.850 --> 00:39:21.620
MICKEY EDWARDS: I do, yeah,
although I can’t sing.

878
00:39:21.620 --> 00:39:25.110
You know, it’s—well,

879
00:39:25.110 --> 00:39:26.470
I come from the state
of Woody Guthrie,

880
00:39:26.470 --> 00:39:28.740
but also a lot
of the top country-western people,

881
00:39:28.740 --> 00:39:30.520
which is kind of my thing.

882
00:39:30.520 --> 00:39:31.930
AMY GOODMAN: I want to ask you
about the Supreme Court.

883
00:39:31.930 --> 00:39:33.170
MICKEY EDWARDS: OK.
AMY GOODMAN: Speaking in February,

884
00:39:33.170 --> 00:39:36.520
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell
said his party would not hold hearings

885
00:39:36.520 --> 00:39:39.140
to consider any nominee
put forward by President Obama

886
00:39:39.140 --> 00:39:40.500
to replace Antonin Scalia.

887
00:39:40.500 --> 00:39:42.990
MAJORITY LEADER MITCH McCONNELL: It’s
been

888
00:39:42.990 --> 00:39:47.600
more than 80 years—80 years—since
a Supreme Court vacancy

889
00:39:47.600 --> 00:39:50.380
arose and was filled

890
00:39:50.380 --> 00:39:52.580
in a presidential election year.

891
00:39:53.300 --> 00:39:54.990
And that, Mr. President,

892
00:39:54.990 --> 00:39:57.290
was when the Senate majority
and the president

893
00:39:57.290 --> 00:40:02.440
were from the same political
party—the same political party.

894
00:40:02.440 --> 00:40:03.840
It’s been 80—80 years.

895
00:40:05.150 --> 00:40:09.360
Since we have divided government today,
it means we have to look back

896
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:13.600
almost 130 years
to the last time

897
00:40:13.600 --> 00:40:17.260
a nominee was confirmed
in similar circumstances.

898
00:40:18.400 --> 00:40:21.990
That’s back
when politicians like mugwumps

899
00:40:21.990 --> 00:40:25.200
were debating policies like free silver,

900
00:40:25.200 --> 00:40:28.670
and a guy named Grover ran the country.

901
00:40:28.670 --> 00:40:29.920
Think about that.

902
00:40:30.940 --> 00:40:33.820
As senators, it leaves us with a choice:

903
00:40:34.430 --> 00:40:36.630
Will we allow the people
to continue deciding

904
00:40:36.630 --> 00:40:38.690
who will nominate the next justice,

905
00:40:38.690 --> 00:40:41.930
or will we empower a lame-duck president
to make that decision

906
00:40:41.930 --> 00:40:44.300
on his way out the door instead?

907
00:40:46.190 --> 00:40:48.120
AMY GOODMAN: Mitch McConnell.
Your response,

908
00:40:48.120 --> 00:40:50.100
Congressmember Mickey
Edwards of Oklahoma?

909
00:40:50.100 --> 00:40:52.520
MICKEY EDWARDS: How Mitch McConnell
can become a spokesman

910
00:40:52.520 --> 00:40:54.480
for a national party is just beyond me.

911
00:40:54.480 --> 00:40:58.080
But here’s—so,

912
00:40:58.080 --> 00:40:59.640
there’s the question—first of all,

913
00:40:59.640 --> 00:41:02.300
yes, the president
should nominate somebody.

914
00:41:02.300 --> 00:41:03.690
That’s what the Constitution
requires him to do.

915
00:41:03.690 --> 00:41:06.620
AMY GOODMAN: Wouldn’t he be guilty
of dereliction of duty if—

916
00:41:06.620 --> 00:41:08.400
MICKEY EDWARDS: Sure, if there’s
a vacancy in the Supreme Court,

917
00:41:08.400 --> 00:41:10.410
and he refuses to nominate somebody.

918
00:41:10.410 --> 00:41:13.960
The Constitution says appoint,
but it’s not. It’s a nomination.

919
00:41:13.960 --> 00:41:17.130
The Senate can turn
the person down or not.

920
00:41:17.130 --> 00:41:21.260
You know, they have—but the president
has an obligation to do this.

921
00:41:21.260 --> 00:41:24.130
You know, there is a bigger problem
here, though, Amy, you know,

922
00:41:24.130 --> 00:41:27.330
and it’s not about a successor
to Scalia, who it is.

923
00:41:28.120 --> 00:41:31.250
Both parties, Republican
and Democrat alike,

924
00:41:31.250 --> 00:41:33.600
have stopped thinking
of the Supreme Court

925
00:41:34.110 --> 00:41:36.510
as a judicial branch

926
00:41:36.510 --> 00:41:37.720
that has the job

927
00:41:37.720 --> 00:41:40.560
of determining what’s
constitutional and what’s not.

928
00:41:40.560 --> 00:41:44.400
Both Republicans and Democrats
treat the Supreme Court today

929
00:41:44.400 --> 00:41:46.650
as a third branch
of the Legislature.

930
00:41:47.160 --> 00:41:49.900
You know, Hillary has a litmus test,

931
00:41:49.900 --> 00:41:51.890
Bernie has a litmus test,

932
00:41:51.890 --> 00:41:53.650
Cruz has a litmus test,

933
00:41:53.650 --> 00:41:55.480
Rubio has a litmus test,

934
00:41:55.480 --> 00:41:58.120
you know, as though—as though
they’re electing another senator.

935
00:41:59.060 --> 00:42:02.820
And if they can’t get it
through the regular Congress,

936
00:42:02.820 --> 00:42:04.600
then you have a super Congress.

937
00:42:05.700 --> 00:42:07.920
And that’s not the role
of the court.

938
00:42:07.920 --> 00:42:10.310
And that’s why you have this battle.

939
00:42:10.310 --> 00:42:12.120
Neither side wants to give in,

940
00:42:12.120 --> 00:42:15.480
because they see it as how they’re going
to win the political battle.

941
00:42:16.550 --> 00:42:19.740
AMY GOODMAN: Forty years ago,
there was another Supreme Court nominee,

942
00:42:19.740 --> 00:42:21.260
Lewis Powell, who had something

943
00:42:21.260 --> 00:42:23.520
to do with the founding
of the Heritage Foundation,

944
00:42:23.520 --> 00:42:24.770
like you did.

945
00:42:25.560 --> 00:42:28.450
Can you talk about Lewis Powell
and the Powell Memo?

946
00:42:29.380 --> 00:42:31.330
MICKEY EDWARDS: No, I can’t.
I don’t remember it, Amy.

947
00:42:31.330 --> 00:42:33.350
I’m sorry.
AMY GOODMAN: Well, talk,

948
00:42:33.350 --> 00:42:36.870
finally, about where you see
this country going right now.

949
00:42:38.660 --> 00:42:40.320
MICKEY EDWARDS: I think we have a lot
of problems.

950
00:42:42.620 --> 00:42:46.250
And the—look, the problems
are not just politics.

951
00:42:46.250 --> 00:42:49.480
You know, we have systemic problems
in politics.

952
00:42:49.480 --> 00:42:53.160
The fact that the parties
are able to decide

953
00:42:53.160 --> 00:42:54.800
what bills will be considered,

954
00:42:54.800 --> 00:42:57.230
the parties are able
to decide who can be

955
00:42:57.230 --> 00:42:58.930
on the general election ballot,

956
00:42:58.930 --> 00:43:02.110
the parties can decide who can vote
in what election, that’s a problem.

957
00:43:02.110 --> 00:43:03.450
But it’s not the only problem.

958
00:43:03.450 --> 00:43:08.070
We have an education system today
that doesn’t teach the humanities,

959
00:43:08.070 --> 00:43:11.260
doesn’t teach art, literature, poetry,

960
00:43:11.260 --> 00:43:13.130
you know, science.

961
00:43:13.700 --> 00:43:16.860
We’re treating people to be cogs

962
00:43:16.860 --> 00:43:18.660
in an economic machine.

963
00:43:18.660 --> 00:43:21.640
You know, all of our colleges
are becoming voc-tech schools,

964
00:43:21.640 --> 00:43:23.170
about how you make a living.

965
00:43:23.170 --> 00:43:27.710
But the way you make people citizens
is with philosophy and literature

966
00:43:27.710 --> 00:43:29.710
and critical thinking.

967
00:43:29.710 --> 00:43:30.960
So that’s a problem.

968
00:43:30.960 --> 00:43:32.930
The media—the media
has been

969
00:43:32.930 --> 00:43:37.060
a majorly—complicit
in the rise of Trump.

970
00:43:37.060 --> 00:43:39.860
Just like Moonves said,
you know, from CBS:

971
00:43:39.860 --> 00:43:41.220
"Hey, we’re making money!"

972
00:43:41.220 --> 00:43:45.180
So, Donald Trump was given
all this time on 60 Minutes.

973
00:43:45.180 --> 00:43:48.500
He was given all this time
on Saturday Night Live.

974
00:43:48.500 --> 00:43:51.100
And they’re cheering,
because it’s these great crowds,

975
00:43:51.100 --> 00:43:52.970
because "Who cares about America?

976
00:43:52.970 --> 00:43:54.180
Let’s make money."

977
00:43:54.180 --> 00:43:56.090
You know, and so it’s
a big problem, Amy.

978
00:43:56.090 --> 00:43:57.410
AMY GOODMAN: Finally—finally,
Congressman Edwards, could you

979
00:43:57.410 --> 00:43:59.150
see yourself voting for Bernie Sanders?

980
00:44:00.900 --> 00:44:03.020
MICKEY EDWARDS: Well, you know,
I like Bernie.

981
00:44:03.710 --> 00:44:06.720
I think he’s honest.
I think most of his—you know,

982
00:44:06.720 --> 00:44:11.190
the thing—I think most
of his solutions—most of his perceptions

983
00:44:11.190 --> 00:44:12.830
of the problem are pretty good.

984
00:44:12.830 --> 00:44:14.080
AMY GOODMAN: You agree
with his assessment

985
00:44:14.080 --> 00:44:15.940
of Wall Street?
MICKEY EDWARDS: Oh, yeah.

986
00:44:15.940 --> 00:44:19.730
But I think most
of his prescriptions are wrong.

987
00:44:20.300 --> 00:44:22.540
But that doesn’t matter,
because none of it would pass—

988
00:44:22.540 --> 00:44:23.640
AMY GOODMAN: You don’t think
he should break up the big banks?

989
00:44:23.640 --> 00:44:25.310
MICKEY EDWARDS: None
of it would matter anyway.

990
00:44:25.310 --> 00:44:26.420
Well, you know, sure,

991
00:44:28.670 --> 00:44:31.710
getting rid of Glass-Steagall
was a serious, serious problem.

992
00:44:32.770 --> 00:44:34.350
So, yeah,

993
00:44:34.350 --> 00:44:36.490
if you’re too big to fail,
you’re too big to exist.

994
00:44:36.490 --> 00:44:39.820
AMY GOODMAN: Do you see the Republican
Party as possibly breaking apart?

995
00:44:39.820 --> 00:44:42.100
MICKEY EDWARDS: The Republican Party—so,
my earlier book

996
00:44:42.100 --> 00:44:44.220
about reclaiming conservatism,

997
00:44:44.220 --> 00:44:45.470
the Republican Party

998
00:44:45.470 --> 00:44:49.350
used to be the party
of small business,

999
00:44:49.350 --> 00:44:50.730
not corporate America.

1000
00:44:50.730 --> 00:44:53.690
It used to be the business
of Main Street, not Wall Street,

1001
00:44:53.690 --> 00:44:55.100
you know, and that’s been lost.

1002
00:44:55.100 --> 00:44:58.270
But, you know,
let me caution you.

1003
00:44:59.370 --> 00:45:01.520
The idea that the Republican Party

1004
00:45:01.520 --> 00:45:05.330
is about to go out of business
and break up—this is the party

1005
00:45:05.330 --> 00:45:08.120
that controls
almost all the state legislatures,

1006
00:45:08.120 --> 00:45:09.690
both houses of Congress

1007
00:45:09.690 --> 00:45:11.390
and most of the governorships.

1008
00:45:11.390 --> 00:45:13.300
If either party is in danger

1009
00:45:13.300 --> 00:45:16.140
of becoming not a national party,
it’s the Democrats.

1010
00:45:16.140 --> 00:45:17.200
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going
to leave it there.

1011
00:45:17.200 --> 00:45:18.500
And I thank you very much—
MICKEY EDWARDS: Yeah.

1012
00:45:18.500 --> 00:45:19.760
AMY GOODMAN: —Mickey Edwards,
for joining us.

1013
00:45:19.760 --> 00:45:21.750
Mickey Edwards served for 16 years

1014
00:45:21.750 --> 00:45:24.430
as a Republican congressman
from Oklahoma,

1015
00:45:24.430 --> 00:45:26.270
chaired the Republican Policy Committee,

1016
00:45:26.270 --> 00:45:29.170
a founding trustee
of the Heritage Foundation.

1017
00:45:29.170 --> 00:45:30.940
He’s written a number
of books—the latest,

1018
00:45:30.940 --> 00:45:32.920
The Parties Versus the People:

1019
00:45:32.920 --> 00:45:36.580
How to Turn Republicans
and Democrats into Americans.

1020
00:45:37.170 --> 00:45:39.950
Can you call Donald Trump a fascist?

1021
00:45:39.950 --> 00:45:43.670
That is the question we will put
to professor Robert Paxton,

1022
00:45:43.670 --> 00:45:45.480
who is an expert on fascism.

1023
00:46:01.380 --> 00:47:27.010
Stay

1024
00:47:27.010 --> 00:47:28.260
with us.

1025
00:47:32.410 --> 00:47:34.300
AMY GOODMAN: "Fascism:
Could it happen here?"

1026
00:47:34.300 --> 00:47:36.230
That’s a question
increasingly being raised

1027
00:47:36.230 --> 00:47:38.500
as Republican presidential
front-runner Donald Trump

1028
00:47:38.500 --> 00:47:40.590
continues his bid
for the White House.

1029
00:47:40.590 --> 00:47:43.840
People as varied
as former Labor Secretary Robert Reich,

1030
00:47:43.840 --> 00:47:46.730
actor George Clooney,
comedian Louis C.K.

1031
00:47:46.730 --> 00:47:49.890
and Anne Frank’s stepsister Eva Schloss

1032
00:47:49.890 --> 00:47:52.110
have suggested
Trump is a fascist.

1033
00:47:52.110 --> 00:47:55.330
Earlier this month,
Mexican President Enrique Peña Nieto

1034
00:47:55.330 --> 00:47:58.570
criticized Trump by invoking
the fascist dictators Adolf Hitler

1035
00:47:58.570 --> 00:47:59.770
and Benito Mussolini.

1036
00:47:59.770 --> 00:48:03.210
PRESIDENT ENRIQUE PEÑA NIETO: 
[translated]

1037
00:48:03.210 --> 00:48:05.840
And there have been
episodes in human history,

1038
00:48:05.840 --> 00:48:07.210
unfortunately,

1039
00:48:07.210 --> 00:48:10.200
where these expressions
of this strident rhetoric

1040
00:48:10.200 --> 00:48:13.800
have only led to very ominous situations

1041
00:48:13.800 --> 00:48:15.160
in the history of humanity.

1042
00:48:15.790 --> 00:48:17.650
That’s how Mussolini got in.

1043
00:48:17.650 --> 00:48:19.410
That’s how Hitler got in.

1044
00:48:19.410 --> 00:48:21.920
They took advantage of a situation,

1045
00:48:21.920 --> 00:48:23.440
a problem perhaps,

1046
00:48:23.440 --> 00:48:26.120
which humanity was going
through at the time,

1047
00:48:26.120 --> 00:48:28.000
after an economic crisis.

1048
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:31.140
And I think what
they put forward ended up,

1049
00:48:31.140 --> 00:48:33.660
at what we know today from history,

1050
00:48:33.660 --> 00:48:35.980
in global conflagration.

1051
00:48:35.980 --> 00:48:38.930
AMY GOODMAN: Republican front-runner
Donald Trump has retweeted quotes

1052
00:48:38.930 --> 00:48:41.740
by Italian fascist leader
Benito Mussolini.

1053
00:48:41.740 --> 00:48:43.840
He was asked about it
on Meet the Press.

1054
00:48:44.510 --> 00:48:45.900
CHUCK TODD: That’s
a famous Mussolini quote.

1055
00:48:45.900 --> 00:48:47.130
You retweeted it.

1056
00:48:47.130 --> 00:48:49.030
Do you like the quote?
Did you know it was Mussolini?

1057
00:48:49.030 --> 00:48:50.600
DONALD TRUMP: Sure.
It’s OK to know it’s Mussolini.

1058
00:48:50.600 --> 00:48:52.180
Look, Mussolini was Mussolini.

1059
00:48:52.180 --> 00:48:54.940
It’s OK to—it’s a very good quote.

1060
00:48:54.940 --> 00:48:58.150
AMY GOODMAN: Donald Trump
has waffled on accepting support

1061
00:48:58.150 --> 00:49:01.200
from white supremacist groups
like the KKK,

1062
00:49:01.200 --> 00:49:03.960
and he’s even encouraged
hand salutes at his rallies

1063
00:49:03.960 --> 00:49:06.240
that some say are reminiscent
of Adolf Hitler.

1064
00:49:06.240 --> 00:49:10.100
However, Donald Trump,
is he a fascist?

1065
00:49:10.100 --> 00:49:12.740
Could fascism ever come
to America’s shores?

1066
00:49:12.740 --> 00:49:14.960
For more, we’re joined by the father

1067
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:16.920
of fascism studies,
Robert Paxton,

1068
00:49:16.920 --> 00:49:18.760
professor emeritus of social science

1069
00:49:18.760 --> 00:49:20.230
at Columbia University.

1070
00:49:20.230 --> 00:49:21.790
Paxton is the author
of several books,

1071
00:49:21.790 --> 00:49:23.780
including The Anatomy of Fascism.

1072
00:49:23.780 --> 00:49:28.310
His recent piece
is headlined "Is Fascism Back?"

1073
00:49:28.310 --> 00:49:31.470
and a while ago wrote a piece
on "The Five Stages of Fascism."

1074
00:49:31.470 --> 00:49:33.730
Professor Paxton,
welcome to Democracy Now!

1075
00:49:33.730 --> 00:49:35.040
ROBERT PAXTON: Thank you very much
for inviting me.

1076
00:49:35.040 --> 00:49:37.810
AMY GOODMAN: So, what do you think
of Donald Trump? Is he a fascist?

1077
00:49:37.810 --> 00:49:39.250
ROBERT PAXTON: Well, I think
that Donald Trump

1078
00:49:39.250 --> 00:49:41.930
shows a rather alarming willingness

1079
00:49:41.930 --> 00:49:43.930
to use fascist themes

1080
00:49:43.930 --> 00:49:45.590
and fascist styles,

1081
00:49:45.590 --> 00:49:51.180
which—and the response this gets,
the positive response, is alarming.

1082
00:49:51.180 --> 00:49:52.770
AMY GOODMAN: What is fascism?
ROBERT PAXTON: Well, fascism

1083
00:49:52.770 --> 00:49:54.720
is a mass nationalist movement

1084
00:49:55.660 --> 00:49:59.170
intended to restore a country

1085
00:49:59.170 --> 00:50:00.980
that’s been damaged
or is in decline,

1086
00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:04.200
by expansion,

1087
00:50:04.200 --> 00:50:06.350
by violent attacks on enemies,

1088
00:50:06.350 --> 00:50:08.900
internal as well as external enemies,

1089
00:50:08.900 --> 00:50:12.710
and measures of authority,

1090
00:50:12.710 --> 00:50:14.540
the replacement of democracy

1091
00:50:14.540 --> 00:50:16.850
by an authoritarian dictatorship.

1092
00:50:16.850 --> 00:50:20.220
AMY GOODMAN: Explain
what happened in Nazi Germany

1093
00:50:20.220 --> 00:50:22.950
and with Adolf Hitler.

1094
00:50:22.950 --> 00:50:26.500
I mean, he didn’t start
by killing 6 million Jews;

1095
00:50:26.500 --> 00:50:28.380
there was a buildup.

1096
00:50:28.380 --> 00:50:30.730
Talk about how it started—and in Italy,

1097
00:50:30.730 --> 00:50:32.820
and you particularly look at France.

1098
00:50:33.410 --> 00:50:37.020
ROBERT PAXTON: Well, in the case
of Hitler, it took him 13 years.

1099
00:50:37.020 --> 00:50:39.010
It started in Munich

1100
00:50:39.010 --> 00:50:41.740
as a minor fringe movement

1101
00:50:41.740 --> 00:50:43.960
of disgruntled war veterans,

1102
00:50:43.960 --> 00:50:46.480
and it percolated along.

1103
00:50:46.480 --> 00:50:48.220
AMY GOODMAN: That was from World War I.
ROBERT PAXTON: From World War I.

1104
00:50:48.220 --> 00:50:50.030
This is 1920,
early 1920s.

1105
00:50:50.030 --> 00:50:53.290
In the election of 1924,
he did very poorly,

1106
00:50:53.290 --> 00:50:56.160
for a marginal party.

1107
00:50:56.160 --> 00:50:59.400
Then you have the Depression
in 1929 and 1930.

1108
00:50:59.400 --> 00:51:03.600
And there are two things:
There’s this huge economic crisis

1109
00:51:03.600 --> 00:51:06.260
with millions and millions,
tens of millions, unemployed,

1110
00:51:06.260 --> 00:51:09.220
and there’s also
a governmental deadlock.

1111
00:51:09.220 --> 00:51:11.920
You cannot get any legislation passed

1112
00:51:12.610 --> 00:51:15.830
without bringing
in the social democrats.

1113
00:51:15.830 --> 00:51:17.290
And the middle—center

1114
00:51:17.290 --> 00:51:19.780
and right absolutely
won’t work with social democrats,

1115
00:51:19.780 --> 00:51:21.980
although they’re really quite moderate.
AMY GOODMAN: Wait, wait.

1116
00:51:21.980 --> 00:51:24.880
What are—are you describing the United
States, or are you describing—

1117
00:51:24.880 --> 00:51:26.630
ROBERT PAXTON: I’m describing—I’m
describing the German—

1118
00:51:26.630 --> 00:51:27.900
the
German

1119
00:51:27.900 --> 00:51:29.210
Weimar Republic really

1120
00:51:29.210 --> 00:51:32.380
ceased to function
as a republic in 1930,

1121
00:51:32.380 --> 00:51:34.360
because nothing could be passed,

1122
00:51:34.360 --> 00:51:37.760
and the president acted under Article 48
of the Constitution,

1123
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:40.950
which gave him powers
in an emergency to rule by decree.

1124
00:51:40.950 --> 00:51:43.400
So, between 1930 and 1933,

1125
00:51:43.400 --> 00:51:45.970
President von Hindenburg
ruled by decree.

1126
00:51:45.970 --> 00:51:50.940
And the political elites are desperate
to get out of that situation.

1127
00:51:50.940 --> 00:51:53.790
And here’s Hitler,
who has more votes

1128
00:51:53.790 --> 00:51:56.200
by this time than anybody else.
He’s up to 37 percent.

1129
00:51:56.200 --> 00:51:58.700
He never gets a majority,
but he’s up to 37 percent.

1130
00:51:58.700 --> 00:52:00.750
And they want to bring that
into their tent

1131
00:52:00.750 --> 00:52:04.610
and get a solid mass backing.

1132
00:52:04.610 --> 00:52:07.370
And so they co-opt Hitler.
They bring him in.

1133
00:52:07.370 --> 00:52:09.750
The other party
that’s growing is the Communist Party.

1134
00:52:09.750 --> 00:52:11.740
And that’s what’s
very different from today.

1135
00:52:11.740 --> 00:52:14.160
There are two parties
that are growing in 1932:

1136
00:52:14.160 --> 00:52:15.790
the Communist Party
and the Nazi Party.

1137
00:52:15.790 --> 00:52:18.470
And if you don’t bring
in the Nazi Party,

1138
00:52:18.470 --> 00:52:21.060
then maybe it’s the Communists
who are going to take over.

1139
00:52:21.060 --> 00:52:24.360
There’s that dynamic of social panic.

1140
00:52:24.360 --> 00:52:26.000
They bring Hitler into the tent.

1141
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:27.400
And once he’s there,

1142
00:52:27.400 --> 00:52:30.980
he doesn’t have full power
when he’s chancellor.

1143
00:52:30.980 --> 00:52:32.680
He doesn’t even have all the ministries.

1144
00:52:32.680 --> 00:52:36.400
But he then—then he takes over
full power,

1145
00:52:36.400 --> 00:52:37.810
and nobody is willing to fight him,

1146
00:52:37.810 --> 00:52:39.750
because that would mean
helping the Communists.

1147
00:52:40.800 --> 00:52:41.580
AMY GOODMAN: And then what happens.

1148
00:52:41.580 --> 00:52:42.920
ROBERT PAXTON: Then
he becomes a dictator.

1149
00:52:43.490 --> 00:52:46.580
He gets a four-year—he gets
the Parliament

1150
00:52:46.580 --> 00:52:48.690
to pass a four-year Enabling Act.

1151
00:52:48.690 --> 00:52:51.070
It allows him to govern
without consulting Parliament,

1152
00:52:51.070 --> 00:52:53.180
in '33 and ’37.

1153
00:52:53.180 --> 00:52:55.890
And he uses that to build
an unbeatable machine.

1154
00:52:55.890 --> 00:52:59.100
He doesn't bother to get it renewed.

1155
00:52:59.100 --> 00:53:01.830
He gets it renewed,
but it’s meaningless by that time.

1156
00:53:01.830 --> 00:53:03.030
He does what he wants.

1157
00:53:03.030 --> 00:53:04.820
And he has these huge rallies.

1158
00:53:04.820 --> 00:53:07.990
He’s enormously successful
in restoring the economy

1159
00:53:07.990 --> 00:53:10.710
and in bringing German power back

1160
00:53:10.710 --> 00:53:12.560
and dismantling the Versailles Treaty.

1161
00:53:12.560 --> 00:53:16.090
And he has these delirious mass rallies.

1162
00:53:16.090 --> 00:53:19.310
And no one will dare
to try to stop him,

1163
00:53:19.310 --> 00:53:23.060
because it’s either him
or the Communists.

1164
00:53:23.060 --> 00:53:25.180
AMY GOODMAN: So, Eva Schloss,

1165
00:53:25.180 --> 00:53:26.430
the half-sister

1166
00:53:26.430 --> 00:53:29.210
of Anne Frank—Otto Frank, her father,

1167
00:53:29.210 --> 00:53:31.250
remarried after his family was killed

1168
00:53:31.250 --> 00:53:34.980
in the Holocaust—Eva Schloss
was just quoted as saying, in Newsweek,

1169
00:53:34.980 --> 00:53:38.140
if Donald Trump becomes
the next president of the [U.S.]

1170
00:53:38.140 --> 00:53:39.900
it would be a complete disaster.

1171
00:53:39.900 --> 00:53:41.780
I think he is acting
like another Hitler

1172
00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:43.510
by inciting racism."

1173
00:53:43.510 --> 00:53:45.520
She said, "I remember
how upset the world

1174
00:53:45.520 --> 00:53:49.030
was when the Berlin Wall
was erected in 1961 and now

1175
00:53:49.030 --> 00:53:51.840
[everybody] is building walls
again to keep people out.

1176
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:56.540
It’s absurd."
ROBERT PAXTON: Well,

1177
00:53:56.540 --> 00:53:59.140
we don’t know what Donald Trump would do
if he were elected president.

1178
00:53:59.140 --> 00:54:04.650
He’s a thoroughly self-centered

1179
00:54:05.150 --> 00:54:06.660
and aggressive personality.

1180
00:54:07.430 --> 00:54:09.010
The danger, it seems to me,

1181
00:54:09.010 --> 00:54:10.310
is that in a deadlock

1182
00:54:10.310 --> 00:54:12.660
between Trump and the Congress
or Trump and the courts,

1183
00:54:12.660 --> 00:54:16.970
he would indeed take some kind
of nonconstitutional action,

1184
00:54:16.970 --> 00:54:18.690
and people would be afraid to say no.

1185
00:54:18.690 --> 00:54:20.600
AMY GOODMAN: You talk, Professor Paxton,

1186
00:54:20.600 --> 00:54:23.390
about the five stages of fascism.

1187
00:54:23.390 --> 00:54:24.720
ROBERT PAXTON: Yes.
AMY GOODMAN: Explain.

1188
00:54:24.720 --> 00:54:28.220
ROBERT PAXTON: Well, fascism
confuses a lot of people,

1189
00:54:28.220 --> 00:54:29.430
because at the very beginning,

1190
00:54:29.430 --> 00:54:31.090
when it was a handful
of disgruntled veterans,

1191
00:54:31.090 --> 00:54:32.510
it sounded quite radical.

1192
00:54:32.510 --> 00:54:36.100
But when it’s in power, it allies
with banks, industrialists,

1193
00:54:36.100 --> 00:54:38.450
the army, churches and so forth.

1194
00:54:38.450 --> 00:54:40.140
And so it changes.

1195
00:54:40.140 --> 00:54:43.360
As it comes close to power
and it makes the bid for power,

1196
00:54:43.360 --> 00:54:46.190
there’s an opportunist adjustment,

1197
00:54:46.190 --> 00:54:51.130
whereby it gets along with
the previously hated conservatives.

1198
00:54:51.130 --> 00:54:54.290
So, you have to look
at each stage somewhat separately.

1199
00:54:56.490 --> 00:54:59.390
But in general, I’m very leery

1200
00:54:59.390 --> 00:55:02.190
of the use of the term
too casually.

1201
00:55:02.190 --> 00:55:05.240
And I do see great differences
between Trump and fascism.

1202
00:55:05.240 --> 00:55:08.460
AMY GOODMAN: Well, let me ask you
about the violence at the Trump rallies.

1203
00:55:08.460 --> 00:55:09.780
ROBERT PAXTON: OK, yes.
AMY GOODMAN: You’ve got March 9th,

1204
00:55:09.780 --> 00:55:11.670
a black protester is sucker-punched;

1205
00:55:11.670 --> 00:55:13.180
and then, February 29th,

1206
00:55:13.180 --> 00:55:15.300
a photographer slammed on the ground;

1207
00:55:15.980 --> 00:55:20.490
November 21st, a black protester
punched, kicked, briefly choked;

1208
00:55:20.490 --> 00:55:23.040
October 23rd, a Latino protester kicked;

1209
00:55:23.040 --> 00:55:26.740
October 14th, immigration activists
are shoved, they’re spit on.

1210
00:55:28.560 --> 00:55:31.910
Donald Trump talks
about paying the legal fees

1211
00:55:31.910 --> 00:55:34.120
of those who are brought up
on charges—most recently,

1212
00:55:34.120 --> 00:55:36.760
the man who sucker-punched
the African-American protester

1213
00:55:36.760 --> 00:55:38.110
and then, afterwards,

1214
00:55:38.110 --> 00:55:41.190
said into a camera
of Inside Edition,

1215
00:55:41.190 --> 00:55:42.240
"Next time I would kill him."

1216
00:55:42.830 --> 00:55:45.170
And Donald Trump has offered
to pay his legal fees?

1217
00:55:45.170 --> 00:55:48.530
ROBERT PAXTON: Well,
Donald Trump—Donald Trump’s pandering

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to the hatreds

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and violent instincts

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of some of these crowds
is very alarming.

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But I think in a longer perspective

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of we’ve had
greater acts

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of violence than this
during the civil rights campaign.

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People were shot, dogs were put on them,
fire hoses were put on them,

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people were killed
in the civil rights campaigns.

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And this is—this is
relatively small potatoes.

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I think it reveals a man
of violent temperament

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and a dangerous person,

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but I think it’s still
on a relatively small scale.

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Mussolini and Hitler
fought in the streets

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with the Socialists and the Communists.

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And they were dead.
There were a few dead in Germany.

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There were actually more dead in Italy,

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when Mussolini was sort
of conquering the streets

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with his Blackshirts.

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That’s real political violence.

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If Donald Trump puts his followers
in colored shirts

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and they begin to fight in the streets,
then you’ve got fascism.

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AMY GOODMAN: Well, in this country,
a deindustrialized America,

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the increasing,

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growing disparity between rich and poor,

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do you think
a kind of foundation

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is being laid that he is playing on?

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ROBERT PAXTON: Well,
I think there is a public

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that he’s speaking to.

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In Italy after the First World War,

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there was a global depression.
Everybody was worse off.

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In Germany in 1933,
everybody was worse off.

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Now, we’ve got
this strange dichotomy

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of a few people doing incredibly well,

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amassing pharaonic wealth,

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and most people in the middle
doing somewhat better,

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and a group of people doing worse,

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with stagnant wages,

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00:57:23.250 --> 00:57:24.580
with job opportunities

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that are limited to people
with technical skills

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that poorly educated people don’t have.

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So we’ve got a group of people

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who see the others

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getting ahead by leaps and bounds,

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and sometimes they think
that black people

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are getting fair advantages
to get ahead,

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and they’re slipping behind.

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And so, this is a very
angry crowd of people.

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AMY GOODMAN: Do you think
Donald Trump is a danger to America

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or represents a danger
that’s already here?

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ROBERT PAXTON: I think that his violent
and aggressive temperament

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installed in the powers

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of the president of the United States
is unpredictable and frightening.

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AMY GOODMAN: You’re an historian.
ROBERT PAXTON: Yes.

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AMY GOODMAN: But you’re looking
at politics today.

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ROBERT PAXTON: Yes.

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I think—I think we don’t know
what he would do.

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We know that his temperament is such

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that we will have
foreign policy crises

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that we shouldn’t have,
and we will have domestic conflicts

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that we shouldn’t have.

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AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you
very much for joining us,

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Professor Robert Paxton,

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professor emeritus of social science
at Columbia University.

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His books include
The Anatomy of Fascism.

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00:58:31.490 --> 00:58:34.290
His recent piece is headlined
"Is Fascism Back?"

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00:58:34.290 --> 00:58:36.510
And that does it for our broadcast.

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00:58:36.510 --> 00:58:38.690
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00:58:38.690 --> 00:58:41.100
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00:58:41.100 --> 00:58:43.310
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00:58:43.310 --> 00:58:52.570
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