WEBVTT

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From Pacifica, this is Democracy Now!

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Judge Garland will travel to the Hill

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to begin meeting with senators

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one on one.

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I simply ask Republicans in the Senate

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to give him a fair hearing—and then
an up-or-down vote.

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The battle
over the Supreme Court has begun.

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President Obama nominates
federal appeals judge Merrick Garland,

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but the Republicans are vowing
to block his nomination.

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President Obama made this nomination
not—not with the intent

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of seeing the nominee confirmed,

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but in order to politicize it
for purposes of the election.

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We’ll discuss Merrick Garland’s record

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with Terry O’Neill, president
of the National Organization for Women,

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and Ian Millhiser, author of Injustices:

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The Supreme Court’s History

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of Comforting the Comfortable
and Afflicting the Afflicted.

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Then to one of the worst
Supreme Court rulings in history.

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We’ll speak with Adam Cohen,
author of Imbeciles:

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The Supreme Court,
American Eugenics,

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and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck.

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This was a case
about a poor woman,

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who there was nothing wrong with her,

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but they deemed her to be feebleminded.

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As a result, with the endorsement
of the Supreme Court,

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they sterilized her against her will.

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And during that era,
about 70,000 Americans

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were sterilized forcibly.

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Judge Oliver
Wendell Holmes

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wrote the majority opinion declaring,

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"Three generations
of imbeciles are enough."

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy
Now!, democracynow.org,

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The War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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After weeks of speculation,
President Obama

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has announced his nominee

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to replace the late
Justice Antonin Scalia

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on the Supreme Court.

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Merrick Garland is the chief judge
for the U.S. Court of Appeals

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for the D.C. Circuit.

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He is widely viewed
as a moderate judge,

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who has received overwhelming
bipartisan support in the past.

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He is most well known for overseeing
the investigation and prosecution

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of Oklahoma City bomber Timothy McVeigh.

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Republicans have vowed to block
the nomination of Merrick Garland.

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Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell
said the Senate will wait

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until a new president
is in place next January

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before even holding
a hearing on a nominee.

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With the death of Antonin Scalia,
the nine-member Supreme Court

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is now evenly split with four liberals

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and four conservative justices.

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Garland could tilt the court to the left

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for the first time in decades,

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though some on the left are concerned

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that his record
on progressive issues is unclear.

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We’ll have more
on the Supreme Court nomination

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after headlines.

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In news from the campaign trail,

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Republican front-runner Donald Trump

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has claimed in an interview with CNN

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that there would be riots

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if he is not nominated
to be the party’s candidate

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at the Republican convention
this summer.

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Donald Trump: "I think we’ll win
before getting to the convention.

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But I can tell you,

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if we didn’t and if we’re 20 votes short

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or if we’re—if we’re,

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you know, a hundred short,

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and we’re at 1,100 and somebody else

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is at 500 or 400—because we’re way ahead
of everybody—I don’t think you can say

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that we don’t get it automatically.

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I think it would be—I think
you’d have riots.

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I think you’d have riots."

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Trump currently has
673 delegates—the most

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of any Republican candidate.

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He needs to secure 1,237 delegates

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to win the nomination outright.

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This comes as a British
research organization

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has ranked the possibility
of a Donald Trump presidency

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as one of the top 10 risks
facing the world.

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The Economist Intelligence Unit
ranked a Trump presidency

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as just as much
of a global threat

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as the possibility that jihadi terrorism
could destabilize the global economy.

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In Honduras, another indigenous
environmental activist

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has been murdered—less than two weeks

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after the assassination

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of famed environmental organizer
Berta Cáceres.

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Thirty-eight-year-old Nelson García
was a member of the group COPINH,

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the Civic Council

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of Popular and Indigenous
Organizations of Honduras,

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which Berta Cáceres
co-founded 22 years ago.

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He was shot in the face

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and killed by gunmen
on Tuesday in Rio Lindo,

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about 100 miles south of La Esperanza,

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where Cáceres was murdered on March 3.

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Russia is continuing to withdraw its air
force from Syria,

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following Russian President
Vladimir Putin’s announcement Monday

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that Russia would be ending
the five-month bombing campaign.

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A Reuters analysis estimates that Russia

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has already withdrawn just
under half the jets

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it had stationed
at a base in eastern Syria.

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The U.S.-led coalition, meanwhile,

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has continued to launch airstrikes

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against ISIL inside Syria.

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This comes
as the Syrian Kurds

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have declared a semi-autonomous
federal region in northern Syria,

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as the group pushes
for self-administration

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under a future decentralized government.

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The announcement comes in the midst

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of U.N.-sponsored peace
negotiations in Geneva.

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The Syrian Kurds have been
excluded from the talks.

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Meanwhile, in Turkey,
a breakaway faction

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of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party

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has claimed responsibility
for Sunday’s car bombing in Ankara,

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which killed 37 people.

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The faction,
the Kurdistan Freedom Hawks,

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said the attack was in retaliation
for Turkish military crackdowns

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in the majority Kurdish communities

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in the southeast.

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In Nigeria,
two suicide bomb attacks

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killed 22 people Wednesday

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at a mosque
in the northeastern Borno state.

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The Nigerian military says
the attack was carried out

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by two female suicide bombers.

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It struck the mosque
during morning prayers.

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No one has claimed
responsibility for the attack,

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but Borno state has been
the center of attacks

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by Boko Haram in recent months.

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In Qatar,
a prominent poet

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has been pardoned
and released from prison

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after serving
more than three years

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for writing and reciting a poem
inspired by the Arab Spring.

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Rashid al-Ajami was jailed
in November 2011

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after a video surfaced of him
reading a poem entitled

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"Tunisian Jasmine,"

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which celebrated
Tunisia’s popular uprising.

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He was charged with
insulting Qatar’s ruling emir

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and "inciting to overthrow
the ruling system."

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In Brazil,
President Dilma Rousseff

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has appointed her predecessor
Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva

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to be her chief of staff,

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in what she says is an effort
to strengthen her government.

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A judge then released secretly
recorded phone calls

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between Rousseff
and Lula da Silva,

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which members of the opposition
say demonstrate

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the appointment was actually intended
to shield Lula da Silva

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from prosecution on corruption charges.

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Rousseff is currently facing
impeachment proceedings.

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The political turmoil has sparked
massive protests across Brazil.

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In Texas, an off-duty suburban
Dallas police officer has been arrested

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on charges of murder

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after fatally shooting 16-year-old
Jose Raul Cruz on Sunday night.

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Authorities say officer
Ken Johnson was off duty

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when he thought he saw a car
being burglarized

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in the parking lot
of his apartment complex.

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This set off a car chase,

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which ended with Officer Johnson

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killing Cruz

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and shooting another teenager,
Edgar Rodríguez, in the head.

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Rodríguez survived.

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Authorities have not said whether
either of the teenagers were armed.

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The University
of Puerto Rico

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remains shut down
amid a three-day student strike

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in protest of austerity cuts.

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Student activist Gabriel Casal Nazario

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spoke at one of
the university’s blocked entrances.

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Gabriel Casal Nazario: "Students,
we decided to shut down university,

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in a general assembly

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we held the 15th,
Tuesday 15th,

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in a historic assembly,

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where there were
more than 4,000 students,

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and we filled
more than 13 amphitheaters.

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We decided that it is necessary

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to shut down the university,

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because in the past five years
they have cut

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more than $542 million from our budget,

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and it’s affecting us.

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Every semester there’s less classes,

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there’s less professors.

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And we students have decided
to take a stand."

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Meanwhile, at the University
of California, Davis,

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a student sit-in
outside the chancellor’s office

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is entering its sixth day.

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The students are demanding
Chancellor Linda Katehi resign

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over her involvement
with private corporate boards,

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including the for-profit college
DeVry University,

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the expensive textbook
maker Wiley & Sons

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and the controversial
Saudi school King Abdulaziz University,

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which has been accused of paying
for affiliations with top professors

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in efforts to boost its global rankings.

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Protesting graduate student

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Brandon Buchanan spoke from the sit-in.

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Brandon Buchanan: "We,
the occupiers of Mrak Hall,

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call for the resignation and/or firing

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of Linda B. Katehi, our chancellor.

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This chancellor has proven
time and time again,

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from DeVry University
to King Abdulaziz University

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to Wiley & Sons textbook co.,

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that she doesn’t make decisions
based on student interests.

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This isn’t new for her.

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This is old hat.

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She has a long history,

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dating back to 2011
with the pepper-spray incident,

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of putting her own interests
over the interests of students."

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And in New York City,
prison reform activist Five Mualimm-ak

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has been released from jail

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after he and a fellow activist

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Joseph "Jazz" Hayden were arrested

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while attempting to mediate
a police confrontation

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with a homeless man on Tuesday.

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The arrest came only moments

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after Mualimm-ak and Hayden
left a book launch event,

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where Mualimm-ak had read his essay
"Hell is a Very Small Place,"

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about his five years
in solitary confinement.

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Mualimm-ak spoke after being
released Wednesday night.

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Five Mualimm-ak: "I have just
been released

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after being incarcerated
for a day or two,

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after a big event

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that we had at Soros Foundation.

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The other night, we had a big book
launch, 'Hell is a Very Small Space,'

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with Solitary Watch
and Soros Foundation,

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and when we came outside,
Joseph 'Jazz' Hayden,

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who is the founder
of Incarcerated Nation Corporation,

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our collective of projects,

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was videotaping an arrest
of an emotionally disturbed person.

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And I felt committed because I’m

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on the mayor’s
behavioral health task force,

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and we’ve created a system

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to basically avoid the occurrences

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that a person has going
through the system.

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There’s a special way to treat people
with emotional disturbances

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that was not being respected that night.

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Jazz being arrested, I stepped in,

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to not intervene but to try
to mediate the problem,

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and was arrested, accosted,
assaulted, as well,

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injured to the point

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that I’m getting medical attention.

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And we will be defending charges
that are placed against us."

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To see our extended interview
with Five Mualimm-ak and Jazz Hayden

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after the release from prison,

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go to democracynow.org.

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And those are some of the headlines
this is Democracy Now,

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Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH:After weeks
of speculation, President Obama

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has announced his nominee

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to replace the late
Justice Antonin Scalia

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on the Supreme Court.

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PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: I’ve selected
a nominee who is widely recognized

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not only as one
of America’s sharpest legal minds,

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but someone who brings to his work

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a spirit of decency,

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modesty, integrity, evenhandedness

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and excellence.

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These qualities and his long commitment
to public service

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have earned him the respect

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and admiration of leaders
from both sides of the aisle.

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He will ultimately bring
that same character

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to bear on the Supreme Court,
an institution

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in which he is uniquely prepared
to serve immediately.

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Today I am nominating
Chief Judge Merrick Brian Garland

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to join the Supreme Court.

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AMY GOODMAN: Republicans have vowed
to block the nomination

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of Judge Merrick Garland.

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Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell
said the Senate will wait

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until a new president
is in place next January

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before even holding a hearing
on a nominee.

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MAJORITY LEADER MITCH McCONNELL: 
President Obama made this nomination

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not—not with the intent

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of seeing the nominee confirmed,

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but in order to politicize it
for purposes of the election.

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AMY GOODMAN: President Obama
criticized Republicans

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for threatening
not to hold confirmation hearings.

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PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: It is tempting
to make this confirmation process simply

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an extension

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of our divided politics—the squabbling

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that’s going on
in the news every day.

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But to go down that path
would be wrong.

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It would be a betrayal
of our best traditions

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and a betrayal of the vision
of our founding documents.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: Many analysts say Obama
chose Judge Garland to make it harder

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for Republicans to outright reject him
without facing a political backlash.

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Merrick Garland is the chief judge
for the U.S. Court of Appeals

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for the D.C. Circuit.

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He’s widely viewed
as a moderate judge

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who has received
bipartisan support in the past.

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He was named to his current post
by Bill Clinton in 1997,

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winning confirmation
from a Republican-led Senate

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in a 76-to-23 vote.

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Prior to that, Garland
worked in the Justice Department,

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where he prosecuted
the Oklahoma City bombing case.

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At 63 years
old, Garland

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is the oldest Supreme Court nominee

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in four decades,

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a move some consider a concession
by President Obama.

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The nine-member Supreme Court
is now evenly split with four liberals

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and four conservative justices.

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Garland could tilt the court to the left

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for the first time in decades,

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though some organizations
have expressed concern

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that his record
on certain issues,

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including abortion rights, is unclear.

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On Wednesday, Merrick spoke briefly
about his legal views.

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JUDGE MERRICK GARLAND: Fidelity
to the Constitution and the law

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has been the cornerstone
of my professional life,

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and it is the hallmark
of the kind of judge

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I have tried to be
for the past 18 years.

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If the Senate sees fit
to confirm me to the position

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for which I have been nominated today,

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I promise to continue on that course.

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AMY GOODMAN: For more,
we’re joined by two guests.

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Terry O’Neill is president
of the National Organization for Women.

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NOW released a statement on Wednesday

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calling Judge Garland, quote,

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"a real nowhere man."

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And we’re joined by Ian Millhiser,

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senior fellow at the Center

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for American Progress Action Fund

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and the editor of ThinkProgress Justice.

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He’s the author of the book Injustices:

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The Supreme Court’s History

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of Comforting the Comfortable
and Afflicting the Afflicted.

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We welcome you both to Democracy Now!

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Ian Millhiser,
why don’t you review his record?

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Talk about Judge Garland,

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what he is known for,

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the decisions that he has made.
IAN MILLHISER: Sure.

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I mean, he is definitely
to the left of center,

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but, you know, I think it’s accurate
to call him a fairly centrist judge.

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He comes from a long-standing
progressive tradition

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of judicial restraint

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that really stretches back
to the Roosevelt administration.

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And what that means is
that as a justice,

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I think that he is likely
to want the courts

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to do much less

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than conservatives
have wanted

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them to do in the last seven years

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over the course of Obama’s presidency.

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A big reason I think that
Obama probably picked Garland is

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because Obama
has spent his presidency

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being harassed by lawsuits,

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and I think he’s tired of that.

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He wants a little more
judicial restraint.

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What it means if Garland is confirmed

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is that the sort

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of aggressive judicial activism

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we’ve seen over the last seven years
probably gets halted.

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It also means, however, that some things

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that liberals might want from the court,

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they’re probably not going
to get from Judge Garland.

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AMY GOODMAN: Well, talk about some
of his key decisions.

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IAN MILLHISER: Well, I mean,
I think that since he’s a judge

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on the D.C. Circuit—the D.C. Circuit’s
primary role

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is reviewing the regulatory actions

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of federal agencies.

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And there, he’s been fairly deferential,

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and generally deference
to federal agencies

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is something that’s going
to be good for the party

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00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:04.970
that wants to be able to govern.

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Two areas where he has shown a strain
of conservatism:

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He is a federal prosecutor,

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and he does tend to be more conservative

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than other Democratic appointees
on criminal justice;

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there’s also a Guantánamo Bay opinion

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where he sided
with the Bush administration.

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It’s worth noting
that the precedents

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that were in place
at the time of that opinion

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were not good precedents.

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They were written in haste.

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They go back to World War II.

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And so, some people
have defended him by saying

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that he was just following precedents.

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But he was also reversed
by the Supreme Court,

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and he was reversed to his left.
So, you know—

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AMY GOODMAN: And explain what he ruled.
IAN MILLHISER: Sure.

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So there was a question then
dealing with whether

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or not Guantánamo Bay detainees

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were allowed to go to civilian courts

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or whether they had to go
through the military tribunal system.

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He joined a ruling saying

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that they had to go
through the tribunal system.

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At the—I believe he relied

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on a World War II precedent
called Eisentrager,

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which is not a great decision.

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And that—and then his opinion
was reversed by the Supreme Court five

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to four in the Rasul case.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Terry O’Neill,
your organization,

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the National Organization for Women,

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has called Judge Garland
a "nowhere man."

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What are some of the concerns
that you have about Judge Garland?

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TERRY O’NEILL: You know,
Amy, we don’t know

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where Judge Garland stands
on some key issues for women.

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And this, actually—this concern

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actually sort of predates
the nomination of Judge Garland.

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For a long time, it seems,
presidents have decided

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that they must nominate people

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that we don’t have
much of a record on.

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I think it’s time
for us to take a step back

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and look at values.

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President Obama is absolutely right:

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You want to put a person
on the Supreme Court

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who has impeccable credentials,

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00:19:02.060 --> 00:19:03.390
who is—who really,

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truly has a strong
intellectual capability

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and a record of excellent performance.

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00:19:09.890 --> 00:19:12.840
But we also need justices
on the Supreme Court

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who will uphold the values

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that this country stands for—equality,

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a recognition
of basic human rights,

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expansion of voting

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and political engagement
for all of our citizens.

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If—we need to have some assurance

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that those values are held
by the Supreme Court nominee.

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00:19:31.730 --> 00:19:34.490
And this is what I was
getting at when I said,

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OK, so, "Nowhere Man"

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from The Beatles, a little quote there.

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But my point is
that we don’t know.

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I also think it’s important
to have more diversity

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on the Supreme Court.

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I have joined with other women’s—women
of color organizations.

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NOW has joined in calling
for the appointment

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of an African-American woman.

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There are many highly
qualified African-American women

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that could fill that seat.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Terry O’Neill,
what have you heard

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or what do you know about the position

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that Judge Garland has taken
on women’s issues?

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TERRY O’NEILL: Honestly, Amy,
I just don’t know.

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We are obviously digging into it now,

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and we are trying to find out.

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But let’s be clear:

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The United States Congress,

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certainly the House of Representatives,

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has been very aggressive at trying

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to block women’s access
to basic healthcare.

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We know that state after state

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after state is not only going
after basic reproductive healthcare,

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but in another area, states
are suppressing the vote.

440
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It turns out when you target
communities of color

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and immigrant communities
and older people

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and younger people
to suppress the vote,

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women are disproportionately
impacted by that.

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So there’s a range
of issues that are coming,

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that have been
before the Supreme Court,

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are going to be
before the Supreme Court,

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that dramatically impact women.

448
00:20:53.570 --> 00:20:56.390
And we are trying to dig through
and find out what we can

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about Judge Garland on those issues.

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AMY GOODMAN: Actually, Terry,
Nermeen asked you those questions.

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But I did want
to ask Ian Millhiser,

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how is it—I mean, isn’t he
the longest-reigning judge of any—

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IAN MILLHISER: Right.
AMY GOODMAN: —Supreme Court justice,

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any Supreme Court justice
ever did—what was he?

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Eighteen years on the bench?

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00:21:16.190 --> 00:21:19.320
It’s interesting that there is no record

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of his stand

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on women’s reproductive rights.

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IAN MILLHISER: Right. I mean,
I actually don’t think that’s unusual.

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I mean, big abortion cases

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are not very common
in the federal courts.

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Most federal court of appeals judges
will go their entire career,

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never hear an abortion case.

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You know, this issue
we have coming up now

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that’s now in front
of the Supreme Court again,

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dealing with whether
or not women’s bosses get to decide

467
00:21:43.490 --> 00:21:45.360
if they have access
to birth control,

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that’s a fairly new issue.

469
00:21:46.810 --> 00:21:50.020
That issue really didn’t exist
in the federal courts

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five years ago.

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And so, most federal judges

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just haven’t heard
those sorts of cases, either.

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There was a case in the D.C. Circuit,

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but Garland was not on that panel.

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So, I mean, I don’t think

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that it would be fair
to accuse him of being evasive.

477
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When you’re a U.S. court
of appeals judge,

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you are randomly assigned to panels,

479
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and I believe a computer does it.

480
00:22:11.600 --> 00:22:15.700
And if there was an abortion case
that came up during his tenure,

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he just wasn’t randomly
assigned to the panel.

482
00:22:18.220 --> 00:22:21.370
It’s fair to say
that we don’t know

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00:22:21.370 --> 00:22:23.450
as much about him
as we might want to know,

484
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because he wasn’t randomly
assigned to it.

485
00:22:26.460 --> 00:22:29.810
But I think that this is just
simply a creature of the fact

486
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that those cases
aren’t particularly common,

487
00:22:32.420 --> 00:22:34.060
they’re randomly assigned,

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00:22:34.060 --> 00:22:36.400
and Garland didn’t draw that straw.

489
00:22:36.400 --> 00:22:39.020
AMY GOODMAN: He’s most well
known for overseeing

490
00:22:39.020 --> 00:22:41.020
the prosecution
and investigation

491
00:22:41.020 --> 00:22:43.430
of the Oklahoma City bomber
Timothy McVeigh,

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00:22:43.430 --> 00:22:45.990
which would put him also
on the side of the death penalty?

493
00:22:46.970 --> 00:22:48.850
IAN MILLHISER: Potentially, yes.

494
00:22:48.850 --> 00:22:52.740
Now, a lot has happened
in the death penalty since then.

495
00:22:52.740 --> 00:22:54.380
There’s a lot
of new concerns

496
00:22:54.380 --> 00:22:58.240
that have been raised
about not just racial profiling

497
00:22:58.240 --> 00:23:00.220
in the death penalty,

498
00:23:00.220 --> 00:23:02.860
but about the method
we use to execute people

499
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and whether it amounts to torture.

500
00:23:05.270 --> 00:23:07.700
You know, Hillary Clinton
said the other night

501
00:23:07.700 --> 00:23:09.690
that she supports the death penalty

502
00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:11.190
for someone like Timothy McVeigh,

503
00:23:11.190 --> 00:23:13.450
but she thinks that the states
shouldn’t be using it.

504
00:23:14.080 --> 00:23:17.660
So, you know,
there are nuanced positions

505
00:23:17.660 --> 00:23:21.780
between total abolitionism
and using it with the frequency

506
00:23:21.780 --> 00:23:23.400
that we use it now.

507
00:23:23.400 --> 00:23:26.130
And I could only speculate,
based on his record,

508
00:23:26.130 --> 00:23:27.430
whether he would join some

509
00:23:27.430 --> 00:23:29.910
of the more nuanced cases
saying, for example,

510
00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:35.420
that lethal injection is too
cruel—is too cruel a method of execution

511
00:23:35.420 --> 00:23:36.670
and shouldn’t be used,

512
00:23:36.670 --> 00:23:38.560
or that there need
to be more protections

513
00:23:38.560 --> 00:23:42.540
to prevent race
from playing the role

514
00:23:42.540 --> 00:23:44.050
that it does right now.

515
00:23:44.050 --> 00:23:47.270
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Ian,
since Judge Garland has had

516
00:23:47.270 --> 00:23:50.350
largely bipartisan support 'til now,

517
00:23:50.350 --> 00:23:53.620
what do you make
of President Obama's decision

518
00:23:53.620 --> 00:23:55.410
to nominate him?

519
00:23:55.410 --> 00:23:57.350
IAN MILLHISER: I think
there’s two things at play.

520
00:23:57.350 --> 00:24:00.980
I mean, one is simply that I think
this is the person that Obama wanted.

521
00:24:00.980 --> 00:24:04.470
You know, Obama
believes in judicial restraint.

522
00:24:04.470 --> 00:24:07.830
I think that his experience as president
has enhanced that belief.

523
00:24:07.830 --> 00:24:09.120
And this is someone

524
00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:11.990
who aligns with what Obama believes.

525
00:24:11.990 --> 00:24:14.350
I also think
there’s a strategic play here,

526
00:24:14.350 --> 00:24:15.610
which is that

527
00:24:15.610 --> 00:24:18.010
as it becomes clearer
and clearer that

528
00:24:18.010 --> 00:24:20.600
Senate Majority Leader
McConnell’s position is that

529
00:24:20.600 --> 00:24:22.840
Donald Trump should get
to pick the next

530
00:24:22.840 --> 00:24:26.900
Supreme Court justice
and not Barack Obama, the fact

531
00:24:26.900 --> 00:24:28.910
that Obama has offered
a very moderate,

532
00:24:28.910 --> 00:24:30.180
very reasonable guy,

533
00:24:30.180 --> 00:24:32.540
who’s had a lot
of bipartisan support,

534
00:24:32.540 --> 00:24:36.210
I think the White House is hoping that
that puts Republican senators in a box,

535
00:24:36.210 --> 00:24:38.220
and it might be possible
to peel some of them off.

536
00:24:38.900 --> 00:24:41.200
I don’t know if I necessarily
agree with that calculation,

537
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.670
but I think that’s part
of the calculation,

538
00:24:43.670 --> 00:24:45.110
is he thinks that,

539
00:24:45.110 --> 00:24:47.980
faced with constant attacks,

540
00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:49.480
pointing out
that their position

541
00:24:49.480 --> 00:24:52.640
is Donald Trump should pick
the next Supreme Court nominee,

542
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.110
eventually, he thinks,
some of them are going to buckle.

543
00:24:55.110 --> 00:24:57.300
AMY GOODMAN: Prior to his time
as federal judge,

544
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:02.360
Merrick Garland served as a prosecutor
in the Clinton Justice Department,

545
00:25:02.360 --> 00:25:06.450
as we said, overseeing
the prosecution of Timothy McVeigh.

546
00:25:08.020 --> 00:25:10.690
That was April 19, 1995,

547
00:25:10.690 --> 00:25:12.660
killing 168 people.

548
00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:15.680
Merrick Garland spoke about
the case on Wednesday.

549
00:25:16.580 --> 00:25:18.360
JUDGE MERRICK GARLAND: Years later,
when I went to Oklahoma City

550
00:25:18.360 --> 00:25:20.470
to investigate the bombing
of the federal building,

551
00:25:21.190 --> 00:25:24.040
I saw up close the devastation

552
00:25:24.040 --> 00:25:28.740
that can happen when someone
abandons the justice system

553
00:25:29.360 --> 00:25:31.190
as a way of resolving grievances

554
00:25:31.860 --> 00:25:34.200
and instead takes matters
into his own hands.

555
00:25:35.230 --> 00:25:39.700
Once again, I saw the importance
of assuring victims and families

556
00:25:39.700 --> 00:25:41.620
that the justice system could work.

557
00:25:42.560 --> 00:25:45.600
We promised that we would find
the perpetrators,

558
00:25:46.900 --> 00:25:48.850
that we would bring them to justice

559
00:25:49.380 --> 00:25:52.730
and that we would do it in a way
that honored the Constitution.

560
00:25:54.610 --> 00:25:57.260
The people of Oklahoma City
gave us their trust,

561
00:25:57.960 --> 00:26:00.730
and we did everything
we could to live up to it.

562
00:26:01.720 --> 00:26:02.960
AMY GOODMAN: Ian Millhiser,

563
00:26:02.960 --> 00:26:05.120
if you can talk about now

564
00:26:05.120 --> 00:26:06.580
the politics

565
00:26:06.580 --> 00:26:08.350
of what’s going to happen,

566
00:26:09.000 --> 00:26:11.470
the whole issue
of who will meet with him,

567
00:26:11.470 --> 00:26:12.810
who won’t?

568
00:26:12.810 --> 00:26:14.240
Senator Grassley,

569
00:26:14.240 --> 00:26:16.030
who’s going to come
under a lot of pressure

570
00:26:16.030 --> 00:26:18.290
because he’s up
for re-election this year,

571
00:26:18.290 --> 00:26:19.970
has said he will meet with him.

572
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:23.030
Mitch McConnell spoke to him
on the phone

573
00:26:23.030 --> 00:26:25.210
but says he will not meet with him.

574
00:26:25.210 --> 00:26:27.280
Talk about precedent for this.

575
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:30.150
IAN MILLHISER: Well,
this is completely unprecedented.

576
00:26:30.150 --> 00:26:34.010
A third of all presidents
have had someone confirmed

577
00:26:34.010 --> 00:26:35.350
during the last year

578
00:26:35.350 --> 00:26:38.430
of—the last year of their presidency
to the Supreme Court.

579
00:26:38.430 --> 00:26:40.600
This idea that there’s
some sort of rule

580
00:26:40.600 --> 00:26:45.350
that you are less—that Barack Obama
is less the president

581
00:26:45.350 --> 00:26:46.840
because he’s in his last year,

582
00:26:46.840 --> 00:26:48.910
that’s something
that hasn’t existed before.

583
00:26:50.110 --> 00:26:52.220
And Mitch McConnell has said

584
00:26:52.220 --> 00:26:56.570
that he will not guarantee
the next president’s nominee a vote,

585
00:26:56.570 --> 00:26:58.330
depending on who that president is.

586
00:26:58.330 --> 00:27:00.800
So what’s really going
on here is that the rule

587
00:27:00.800 --> 00:27:03.020
that the Senate Republicans want to set

588
00:27:03.020 --> 00:27:06.530
is that you don’t get your nominee
confirmed if you are a Democrat.

589
00:27:06.530 --> 00:27:09.160
The question is whether they’re going
to be able to hold to that.

590
00:27:09.160 --> 00:27:13.110
And, you know, there’s going to be
a lot of silly dances going on.

591
00:27:13.110 --> 00:27:15.800
You know, who’s going to meet with him?
Who’s going to not meet with him?

592
00:27:15.800 --> 00:27:18.520
Is he going to get a hearing?
Is he not going to get a hearing?

593
00:27:19.350 --> 00:27:21.230
At the end of the day, though,

594
00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:24.940
Obama has offered them
a pretty good deal.

595
00:27:24.940 --> 00:27:27.350
You know, Obama has offered them
a pretty moderate guy.

596
00:27:27.350 --> 00:27:29.230
He’s offered them an older justice,

597
00:27:29.230 --> 00:27:31.730
who won’t serve as long
as someone younger would.

598
00:27:31.730 --> 00:27:34.130
And if they hold out too long,

599
00:27:34.130 --> 00:27:36.800
they risk having President Clinton
come in next year

600
00:27:36.800 --> 00:27:38.560
and pick a 49-year-old.

601
00:27:38.560 --> 00:27:40.240
So, at the end of the day,

602
00:27:40.240 --> 00:27:44.450
I think that Republicans need to be
smart about this and realize

603
00:27:44.450 --> 00:27:46.760
that Obama has put a deal

604
00:27:46.760 --> 00:27:49.710
on the table that’s actually
a pretty good deal for them.

605
00:27:49.710 --> 00:27:52.620
And if they want to hold out
for Donald Trump

606
00:27:52.620 --> 00:27:55.000
or whoever they want
the next president to be,

607
00:27:55.000 --> 00:27:56.580
they can try to do that,

608
00:27:56.580 --> 00:27:58.940
but they could wind up
with President Clinton

609
00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:00.700
in the White House picking someone

610
00:28:00.700 --> 00:28:02.280
that they’re going to like even less.

611
00:28:02.280 --> 00:28:04.670
AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you both
for being with us, Ian Millhiser,

612
00:28:04.670 --> 00:28:06.900
senior fellow at the Center

613
00:28:06.900 --> 00:28:08.940
for American Progress Action Fund

614
00:28:08.940 --> 00:28:11.270
and editor of ThinkProgress Justice.

615
00:28:11.270 --> 00:28:13.650
And I also want to thank Terry O’Neill,

616
00:28:13.650 --> 00:28:16.220
president of the National
Organization for Women.

617
00:28:16.220 --> 00:28:18.710
This is Democracy
Now!, democracynow.org,

618
00:28:18.710 --> 00:28:19.930
The War and Peace Report.

619
00:28:19.930 --> 00:28:24.090
When we come back, one of the worst
Supreme Court decisions ever.

620
00:28:24.720 --> 00:28:26.290
We’ll speak with Adam Cohen,

621
00:28:26.290 --> 00:28:29.160
author of a new book called Imbeciles:

622
00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:31.930
The Supreme Court,
American Eugenics,

623
00:28:31.930 --> 00:28:34.100
and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck.

624
00:28:34.100 --> 00:28:35.350
Stay with us.

625
00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:56.300
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now

626
00:29:56.300 --> 00:29:57.820
to look at
what’s been described

627
00:29:57.820 --> 00:30:01.210
as one of the worst
Supreme Court rulings in history.

628
00:30:01.210 --> 00:30:04.740
In the 1927 case Buck v. Bell,

629
00:30:04.740 --> 00:30:06.440
the court upheld a statute

630
00:30:06.440 --> 00:30:08.050
that enabled the state of Virginia

631
00:30:08.050 --> 00:30:11.550
to sterilize so-called mental defectives

632
00:30:11.550 --> 00:30:13.090
or imbeciles.

633
00:30:13.090 --> 00:30:15.090
The person in question was Carrie Buck,

634
00:30:15.090 --> 00:30:19.010
a poor, young woman then confined
in the Virginia State Colony

635
00:30:19.010 --> 00:30:21.620
for Epileptics and the Feebleminded,

636
00:30:21.620 --> 00:30:25.610
though she was neither epileptic
nor mentally disabled.

637
00:30:25.610 --> 00:30:28.020
In the landmark decision,
eight judges ruled

638
00:30:28.020 --> 00:30:31.240
that the state of Virginia
had the right to sterilize her.

639
00:30:31.240 --> 00:30:32.790
Her mother, Emma,

640
00:30:32.790 --> 00:30:34.820
as well as Carrie’s daughter, Vivian,

641
00:30:34.820 --> 00:30:36.800
then only eight months old,

642
00:30:36.800 --> 00:30:39.480
were deemed similarly deficient.

643
00:30:39.480 --> 00:30:41.860
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.

644
00:30:41.860 --> 00:30:44.550
wrote the majority opinion
concluding, quote,

645
00:30:44.550 --> 00:30:47.510
"Three generations
of imbeciles are enough."

646
00:30:47.510 --> 00:30:49.560
AMY GOODMAN: The decision
resulted in 60,000

647
00:30:49.560 --> 00:30:55.880
to 70,000 sterilizations of Americans
considered "unfit" to reproduce.

648
00:30:55.880 --> 00:30:57.800
The Supreme Court decision
had its origins

649
00:30:57.800 --> 00:31:01.120
in the eugenics movement then
thriving in the United States.

650
00:31:01.120 --> 00:31:05.690
The 1924 Immigration Act was passed with
similar intent—to prevent immigration

651
00:31:05.690 --> 00:31:07.640
by genetically inferior groups,

652
00:31:07.640 --> 00:31:11.610
which included Italians, Jews,
Eastern Europeans

653
00:31:11.610 --> 00:31:13.560
and countless others, in an attempt

654
00:31:13.560 --> 00:31:16.770
to improve the genetic quality
of the American population.

655
00:31:16.770 --> 00:31:18.610
Author Adam Cohen writes about the case

656
00:31:18.610 --> 00:31:19.910
in his new book,
Imbeciles:

657
00:31:19.910 --> 00:31:21.640
The Supreme Court,
American Eugenics,

658
00:31:21.640 --> 00:31:24.070
and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck.

659
00:31:24.070 --> 00:31:26.060
Adam was previously a member

660
00:31:26.060 --> 00:31:27.980
of The New York Times editorial board

661
00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:30.410
and a senior writer for Time magazine.

662
00:31:30.410 --> 00:31:34.030
He is the co-editor
of TheNationalBookReview.com.

663
00:31:34.030 --> 00:31:35.990
Adam Cohen,
welcome back to Democracy Now!

664
00:31:35.990 --> 00:31:37.820
It’s great to have you with us.
ADAM COHEN: Great to be here, Amy.

665
00:31:37.820 --> 00:31:40.200
AMY GOODMAN: Tell us the story
of Carrie Buck.

666
00:31:40.200 --> 00:31:42.230
In a moment, we’ll hear all about

667
00:31:42.230 --> 00:31:44.030
how it ties into

668
00:31:44.030 --> 00:31:45.390
immigration,

669
00:31:45.390 --> 00:31:47.560
eugenics, parallels

670
00:31:47.560 --> 00:31:48.930
to what we’re seeing today.

671
00:31:48.930 --> 00:31:52.500
But start back in
the 1920s with Carrie Buck.

672
00:31:52.500 --> 00:31:54.850
ADAM COHEN: So she’s a young woman
who is growing up

673
00:31:54.850 --> 00:31:57.800
in Charlottesville, Virginia,
being raised by a single mother.

674
00:31:57.800 --> 00:32:00.090
Back then, there was a belief
that it was better often

675
00:32:00.090 --> 00:32:02.310
to take poor children
away from their parents

676
00:32:02.310 --> 00:32:03.900
and put them in middle-class homes.

677
00:32:03.900 --> 00:32:06.210
So she was put in a foster family

678
00:32:06.210 --> 00:32:07.470
that treated her very badly.

679
00:32:07.470 --> 00:32:09.910
She wasn’t allowed to call
the parents "mother" and "father."

680
00:32:09.910 --> 00:32:13.240
She did a lot of housekeeping for them
and was rented out to the neighbors.

681
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:16.820
And then, one summer, she was raped
by the nephew of her foster mother.

682
00:32:16.820 --> 00:32:18.710
She becomes pregnant out of wedlock.

683
00:32:18.710 --> 00:32:20.670
And rather than help her
with this pregnancy,

684
00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:22.690
they decide to get
her declared epileptic

685
00:32:22.690 --> 00:32:24.740
and feebleminded,
though she was neither,

686
00:32:24.740 --> 00:32:27.320
and she’s shipped off
to the Colony for Epileptics

687
00:32:27.320 --> 00:32:29.770
and Feebleminded outside
of Lynchburg, Virginia.

688
00:32:29.770 --> 00:32:31.060
AMY GOODMAN: And what happened
to her there?

689
00:32:31.060 --> 00:32:32.660
ADAM COHEN: So she gets there
at just the wrong time.

690
00:32:32.660 --> 00:32:36.710
Virginia has just passed
an eugenics sterilization law,

691
00:32:36.710 --> 00:32:38.700
and they want to test it in the courts.

692
00:32:38.700 --> 00:32:40.640
So they seize on Carrie Buck

693
00:32:40.640 --> 00:32:43.050
as the perfect plaintiff
in this lawsuit.

694
00:32:43.050 --> 00:32:45.540
So they decide to make her
the first person in Virginia

695
00:32:45.540 --> 00:32:47.410
who will be eugenically sterilized,

696
00:32:47.410 --> 00:32:49.140
and suddenly she’s in
the middle of a case

697
00:32:49.140 --> 00:32:51.170
that’s headed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

698
00:32:51.170 --> 00:32:52.630
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And,
Adam Cohen, could you explain

699
00:32:52.630 --> 00:32:55.960
what kind of medical tests
were employed to determine

700
00:32:55.960 --> 00:32:57.930
that she was a so-called imbecile?

701
00:32:57.930 --> 00:32:59.060
ADAM COHEN: Yeah, terrible testing.

702
00:32:59.060 --> 00:33:01.890
These were very primitive IQ tests
from the time,

703
00:33:01.890 --> 00:33:03.820
that really didn’t
test intelligence at all.

704
00:33:03.820 --> 00:33:05.950
One question she was asked was:

705
00:33:05.950 --> 00:33:07.980
What do you do
when a playmate hits you?

706
00:33:07.980 --> 00:33:11.190
And whatever her answer was to that
was somehow deemed to be relevant

707
00:33:11.190 --> 00:33:14.440
to whether or not she was an idiot,
an imbecile or a moron.

708
00:33:14.440 --> 00:33:16.240
AMY GOODMAN: Those were the categories?

709
00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:17.450
ADAM COHEN: Yes,
those were the three categories.

710
00:33:17.450 --> 00:33:19.580
And this was a formal hierarchy

711
00:33:19.580 --> 00:33:22.380
that was established
by the psychological profession

712
00:33:22.380 --> 00:33:24.530
at the time and was actually
in government pamphlets.

713
00:33:24.530 --> 00:33:26.990
So, if you were
of a mental age

714
00:33:26.990 --> 00:33:29.240
of two or younger,
you were called an idiot.

715
00:33:29.240 --> 00:33:30.910
If you were between three and seven,

716
00:33:30.910 --> 00:33:32.500
you were called an imbecile.

717
00:33:32.500 --> 00:33:36.190
And if you were eight and—from between
eight and 12, you were called a moron.

718
00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:38.830
And Carrie and her mother,
who was also at the colony,

719
00:33:38.830 --> 00:33:40.540
were deemed to be morons.

720
00:33:40.540 --> 00:33:43.310
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And so, explain
what happened to Carrie after that.

721
00:33:43.310 --> 00:33:44.700
ADAM COHEN: Yeah, so,
they decide to put her

722
00:33:44.700 --> 00:33:48.300
in the middle of this test case to see
if the Virginia law is constitutional.

723
00:33:48.300 --> 00:33:50.650
And they give her a lawyer
who’s actually not on her side.

724
00:33:50.650 --> 00:33:52.740
It’s a former chairman of the Colony

725
00:33:52.740 --> 00:33:55.300
for Epileptics and Feebleminded’s
own board of directors.

726
00:33:55.300 --> 00:33:57.260
He clearly wants to see her sterilized.

727
00:33:57.260 --> 00:33:59.810
He does a terrible job
writing short briefs

728
00:33:59.810 --> 00:34:01.570
that don’t cite the relevant cases.

729
00:34:01.570 --> 00:34:03.200
It goes up to the Supreme Court,

730
00:34:03.200 --> 00:34:05.000
and the court rules eight to one that,

731
00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:07.170
yes, the Virginia law is constitutional,

732
00:34:07.170 --> 00:34:09.070
and, yes, Carrie,
who there’s nothing wrong with,

733
00:34:09.070 --> 00:34:11.370
should be sterilized against her will.

734
00:34:11.370 --> 00:34:14.410
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And who was responsible
for appointing this lawyer to her?

735
00:34:14.410 --> 00:34:17.100
ADAM COHEN: It was the colony itself,
so they chose one of their friends.

736
00:34:17.100 --> 00:34:20.330
And she truly had no advocate
of any kind on her side.

737
00:34:20.330 --> 00:34:22.370
Back then,
the American Civil Liberties Union,

738
00:34:22.370 --> 00:34:25.690
which had just started up,
really was kind of pro-eugenics,

739
00:34:25.690 --> 00:34:27.270
or at least some
of the members around it were,

740
00:34:27.270 --> 00:34:29.770
and there were no advocacy groups
to look out for people like Carrie.

741
00:34:29.770 --> 00:34:32.980
AMY GOODMAN: So, explain
what this term "eugenics" was,

742
00:34:32.980 --> 00:34:34.900
what the whole movement was,

743
00:34:34.900 --> 00:34:36.780
and who was a part of it, Adam.
ADAM COHEN: Sure.

744
00:34:36.780 --> 00:34:40.250
So, it started in England
by—it was—the phrase—the word

745
00:34:40.250 --> 00:34:41.810
was coined by Francis Galton,

746
00:34:41.810 --> 00:34:44.060
who was a half-cousin
of Charles Darwin.

747
00:34:44.060 --> 00:34:46.230
So this was right after
Darwin had discovered

748
00:34:46.230 --> 00:34:48.040
evolution and survival
of the fittest.

749
00:34:48.040 --> 00:34:49.890
Galton and his followers said,

750
00:34:49.890 --> 00:34:51.860
"Well, if nature does this naturally,

751
00:34:51.860 --> 00:34:53.820
we can speed survival of the fittest

752
00:34:53.820 --> 00:34:55.360
along
if we decide

753
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.460
who gets to reproduce and who doesn’t,

754
00:34:57.460 --> 00:34:59.440
if we get the fit
people to reproduce

755
00:34:59.440 --> 00:35:01.370
and we stop the unfit from reproducing."

756
00:35:01.370 --> 00:35:03.260
So that was the idea in England.

757
00:35:03.260 --> 00:35:04.610
It comes over to America,

758
00:35:04.610 --> 00:35:07.470
and it’s greatly adopted
by the leaders in America.

759
00:35:07.470 --> 00:35:09.260
I mean, the people
who supported eugenics

760
00:35:09.260 --> 00:35:11.590
included the president
of Harvard University,

761
00:35:11.590 --> 00:35:14.290
the first president
of Stanford, Theodore Roosevelt,

762
00:35:14.290 --> 00:35:15.740
Alexander Graham Bell.

763
00:35:15.740 --> 00:35:18.460
And universities across the country
taught eugenics.

764
00:35:18.460 --> 00:35:20.620
It was very popular in the popular press

765
00:35:20.620 --> 00:35:23.310
and in best-selling books.
This was a mass movement.

766
00:35:23.310 --> 00:35:25.920
People believed we needed
to uplift the race

767
00:35:25.920 --> 00:35:27.320
by changing our gene pool.

768
00:35:27.320 --> 00:35:29.830
AMY GOODMAN: Where did Margaret Sanger
fit into this picture?

769
00:35:29.830 --> 00:35:31.030
ADAM COHEN: She was a eugenicist.

770
00:35:31.030 --> 00:35:32.930
And this is a big controversy,

771
00:35:32.930 --> 00:35:34.640
where exactly she fit in.

772
00:35:34.640 --> 00:35:36.750
She wasn’t a leader in the movement.

773
00:35:36.750 --> 00:35:38.570
She was, in part, a—

774
00:35:38.570 --> 00:35:39.930
AMY GOODMAN: And explain who she was.
ADAM COHEN: Sure.

775
00:35:39.930 --> 00:35:42.020
Margaret Sanger was the founder
of Planned Parenthood.

776
00:35:42.020 --> 00:35:45.470
She formed a strategic alliance
with the eugenicists, in part

777
00:35:45.470 --> 00:35:47.680
to get more support
for her birth control movement.

778
00:35:47.680 --> 00:35:49.680
But she also believed
some of this stuff,

779
00:35:49.680 --> 00:35:51.410
and she said some bad things
at the time.

780
00:35:51.410 --> 00:35:52.700
This is a big controversy, though.

781
00:35:52.700 --> 00:35:55.360
And on the right,
they use it to taint the whole idea

782
00:35:55.360 --> 00:35:57.290
of Planned Parenthood,
which I think is unfair,

783
00:35:57.290 --> 00:35:58.960
because Margaret Sanger was actually

784
00:35:58.960 --> 00:36:02.480
in the mainstream of a lot
of progressive thought at the time.

785
00:36:02.480 --> 00:36:04.850
AMY GOODMAN: As is evidenced
by the Supreme Court decision.

786
00:36:04.850 --> 00:36:06.070
ADAM COHEN: Eight to one.
AMY GOODMAN: Now, explain

787
00:36:06.070 --> 00:36:08.500
who was on the Supreme Court,

788
00:36:08.500 --> 00:36:10.170
who wrote the decision,

789
00:36:10.170 --> 00:36:13.170
what these justices believed themselves.

790
00:36:13.170 --> 00:36:15.740
ADAM COHEN: Yeah, so this was actually
a very fancy court at the time.

791
00:36:15.740 --> 00:36:17.960
The chief justice
was William Howard Taft,

792
00:36:17.960 --> 00:36:19.590
who had been president
of the United States

793
00:36:19.590 --> 00:36:22.570
before he became chief justice,
the only president to do that.

794
00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:24.700
He had also been a professor
at Yale Law School.

795
00:36:24.700 --> 00:36:26.520
Louis Brandeis,
who was known

796
00:36:26.520 --> 00:36:28.700
as "the people’s attorney"
before he joined the court,

797
00:36:28.700 --> 00:36:30.980
a great progressive hero,
he was on the court.

798
00:36:30.980 --> 00:36:32.670
And then, of course,
Oliver Wendell Holmes,

799
00:36:32.670 --> 00:36:35.330
probably the most revered justice
in American history,

800
00:36:35.330 --> 00:36:36.900
he was a legendary figure.

801
00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:38.700
There have been—there’s
a movie about him.

802
00:36:38.700 --> 00:36:41.120
There was a play on Broadway,
cover of Time magazine.

803
00:36:41.120 --> 00:36:44.020
He was thought to be
the wisest of the judges.

804
00:36:44.020 --> 00:36:45.980
And he wrote this terrible decision.

805
00:36:45.980 --> 00:36:47.450
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
I want to go to something

806
00:36:47.450 --> 00:36:49.630
that he said in the decision.

807
00:36:49.630 --> 00:36:51.950
This is Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr.,

808
00:36:51.950 --> 00:36:54.590
who wrote in the majority opinion
for the court,

809
00:36:54.590 --> 00:36:57.470
the nation must sterilize
those who, quote,

810
00:36:57.470 --> 00:36:59.430
"sap the strength of the State

811
00:36:59.430 --> 00:37:02.760
[to] prevent our being swamped
with incompetence."

812
00:37:02.760 --> 00:37:04.100
He declared, quote,

813
00:37:04.100 --> 00:37:06.040
"It is better for all the world if,

814
00:37:06.040 --> 00:37:11.180
instead of waiting to execute
degenerate offspring for crime

815
00:37:11.180 --> 00:37:13.660
or to let them starve
for their imbecility,

816
00:37:13.660 --> 00:37:15.300
society can prevent those

817
00:37:15.300 --> 00:37:19.450
who are manifestly unfit
from continuing their kind."

818
00:37:19.450 --> 00:37:21.240
ADAM COHEN: Very shocking. Sorry, yeah.

819
00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:22.530
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So I wanted to ask you

820
00:37:22.530 --> 00:37:25.260
about the fact—you studied
Harvard Law School.

821
00:37:25.260 --> 00:37:27.640
And at the time, this justice

822
00:37:27.640 --> 00:37:32.180
was considered a hero
of the American legal system.

823
00:37:32.180 --> 00:37:34.460
So could you explain who he was,

824
00:37:34.460 --> 00:37:36.550
what kinds of positions he took,

825
00:37:36.550 --> 00:37:39.420
and how he was still revered?

826
00:37:39.420 --> 00:37:41.270
ADAM COHEN: Sure.
He was a heroic figure.

827
00:37:41.270 --> 00:37:43.390
He had actually been a professor
at Harvard Law School

828
00:37:43.390 --> 00:37:45.040
before he joined the U.S. Supreme Court.

829
00:37:45.040 --> 00:37:46.770
And even when I was
at Harvard Law school,

830
00:37:46.770 --> 00:37:47.980
there were portraits of him everywhere.

831
00:37:47.980 --> 00:37:49.990
He’s still a very revered justice.

832
00:37:49.990 --> 00:37:51.980
But he came out of a certain tradition.

833
00:37:51.980 --> 00:37:53.940
He was a so-called Boston Brahmin.

834
00:37:53.940 --> 00:37:57.510
He was from some of
the fanciest families in Boston.

835
00:37:57.510 --> 00:38:01.330
The Olivers, Wendells and the Holmes
were all old New England families.

836
00:38:01.330 --> 00:38:04.150
He was raised by a father,
Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr.,

837
00:38:04.150 --> 00:38:06.230
who had been the dean
of Harvard Medical School.

838
00:38:06.230 --> 00:38:09.410
Oliver Wendell Holmes Sr. actually
coined this phrase "Boston Brahmin."

839
00:38:09.410 --> 00:38:13.110
And the idea was
that these fancy families in Boston

840
00:38:13.110 --> 00:38:14.450
were like the Brahmins in India,

841
00:38:14.450 --> 00:38:16.330
that they were the highest caste.

842
00:38:16.330 --> 00:38:18.470
So he believed this.
He wrote about eugenics

843
00:38:18.470 --> 00:38:20.990
even before this case came along,
wrote about it favorably.

844
00:38:20.990 --> 00:38:22.620
So when the case
gets to him,

845
00:38:22.620 --> 00:38:25.810
he believes that people
like Carrie Buck—poor, white,

846
00:38:25.810 --> 00:38:28.650
uneducated people—are
much lesser than him,

847
00:38:28.650 --> 00:38:30.420
so it’s very natural
for him to say,

848
00:38:30.420 --> 00:38:32.710
"Of course we don’t need more people
like Carrie Buck;

849
00:38:32.710 --> 00:38:35.730
we need more people like me
and my Boston Brahmin neighbors."

850
00:38:35.730 --> 00:38:37.380
So that was the philosophy.

851
00:38:37.380 --> 00:38:38.750
And it is amazing that,
to this day,

852
00:38:38.750 --> 00:38:41.240
he’s still revered
in law schools,

853
00:38:41.240 --> 00:38:43.320
because these were
some pretty repugnant views.

854
00:38:43.320 --> 00:38:45.210
But one reason
that can still be the case

855
00:38:45.210 --> 00:38:47.170
is that this case
is not talked about.

856
00:38:47.170 --> 00:38:48.500
When I took constitutional law

857
00:38:48.500 --> 00:38:50.460
at Harvard Law School,
it was not taught.

858
00:38:50.460 --> 00:38:52.980
The leading American
constitutional treatise,

859
00:38:52.980 --> 00:38:55.740
1,700 pages that goes into great detail

860
00:38:55.740 --> 00:38:57.190
about many, many cases,

861
00:38:57.190 --> 00:38:59.430
has half a sentence
about Buck v. Bell.

862
00:38:59.430 --> 00:39:02.800
They’ve just sort of forgotten about it
and made it not part of Holmes’s legacy.

863
00:39:02.800 --> 00:39:05.940
AMY GOODMAN: Where do the Nazis
fit into this picture, Adam Cohen?

864
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:07.240
ADAM COHEN: Yeah, so one
of the shocking things

865
00:39:07.240 --> 00:39:09.680
about that is
that the Nazis actually followed us.

866
00:39:09.680 --> 00:39:11.940
We were the leaders
in eugenic sterilization.

867
00:39:11.940 --> 00:39:15.800
Indiana passed
a eugenic sterilization law in 1907,

868
00:39:15.800 --> 00:39:17.900
well before the rise
of the Nazi Party.

869
00:39:17.900 --> 00:39:19.110
They were looking to America.

870
00:39:19.110 --> 00:39:22.190
And one of the villains in my book
is a man named Harry Laughlin,

871
00:39:22.190 --> 00:39:25.950
who runs the—ran the Eugenics
Record Office on Long Island.

872
00:39:25.950 --> 00:39:28.910
And he was in correspondence
with the Nazi scientists

873
00:39:28.910 --> 00:39:30.330
throughout this whole period.

874
00:39:30.330 --> 00:39:32.520
They were looking to him
for advice about how to set up

875
00:39:32.520 --> 00:39:34.370
a eugenics sterilization program.

876
00:39:34.370 --> 00:39:37.140
He wrote with pride
in his eugenics magazine

877
00:39:37.140 --> 00:39:39.830
that they based the Nazi eugenic law

878
00:39:39.830 --> 00:39:41.270
on his American law.

879
00:39:41.270 --> 00:39:43.250
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, can you explain—
AMY GOODMAN: So that’s key.

880
00:39:43.250 --> 00:39:44.650
ADAM COHEN: Absolutely.
AMY GOODMAN: We’re not talking about

881
00:39:46.430 --> 00:39:49.320
Americans looking to the Nazis,

882
00:39:49.320 --> 00:39:50.890
who supported the Nazis.

883
00:39:50.890 --> 00:39:54.730
We’re talking about the Nazis
using American precedent.

884
00:39:54.730 --> 00:39:56.880
ADAM COHEN: Absolutely.
And it’s shocking also the degree

885
00:39:56.880 --> 00:39:59.560
to which there was
friendship and cooperation

886
00:39:59.560 --> 00:40:01.470
between the America eugenicists

887
00:40:01.470 --> 00:40:04.110
and important scientists
in America and the Nazis.

888
00:40:04.110 --> 00:40:06.690
So, Harry Laughlin,
this villain of the book,

889
00:40:06.690 --> 00:40:09.570
he actually is given a honorary degree

890
00:40:09.570 --> 00:40:12.100
from the University
of Heidelberg in 1936.

891
00:40:12.100 --> 00:40:14.980
That’s a year after they purged
all the Jews from the faculty.

892
00:40:14.980 --> 00:40:18.310
He was fine with that, because
he was actually a Nazi sympathizer.

893
00:40:18.940 --> 00:40:20.960
AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go to a break,
and when we come back,

894
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:23.310
we’re going to continue
on this discussion.

895
00:40:23.310 --> 00:40:27.370
We’ll talk about the U.S. model
being a model for the Nazis,

896
00:40:27.370 --> 00:40:28.660
but also then

897
00:40:28.660 --> 00:40:31.810
how immigration law
fits into this picture

898
00:40:31.810 --> 00:40:34.030
and what are the parallels with today.

899
00:40:34.030 --> 00:40:36.100
We’re talking with Adam Cohen,

900
00:40:36.100 --> 00:40:38.710
journalist and lawyer,
previously a member

901
00:40:38.710 --> 00:40:40.560
of The New York Times editorial board

902
00:40:40.560 --> 00:40:42.330
and senior writer for Time magazine.

903
00:40:42.330 --> 00:40:45.030
His brand new book is called Imbeciles:

904
00:40:45.030 --> 00:40:47.070
The Supreme Court,
American Eugenics,

905
00:40:47.070 --> 00:40:49.000
and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck.

906
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:49.810
Stay with us.

907
00:40:49.810 --> 00:41:55.860
[break]

908
00:41:55.860 --> 00:41:57.100
AMY GOODMAN: Coon Creek Girls,

909
00:41:57.100 --> 00:41:59.560
"Flowers Blooming in the Wildwood."

910
00:41:59.560 --> 00:42:02.090
This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

911
00:42:02.090 --> 00:42:05.050
The War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.

912
00:42:05.050 --> 00:42:07.350
Our guest is Adam Cohen, author

913
00:42:07.350 --> 00:42:09.080
of the new book,
Imbeciles:

914
00:42:09.080 --> 00:42:11.710
The Supreme Court,
American Eugenics,

915
00:42:11.710 --> 00:42:15.210
and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck.
Nermeen?

916
00:42:15.890 --> 00:42:20.110
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So I wanted to turn
to a clip from the 1961 film Judgment

917
00:42:20.110 --> 00:42:25.130
at Nuremberg, which references
the 1927 case, Buck v. Bell.

918
00:42:25.130 --> 00:42:27.530
This clip begins with Maximilian Schell

919
00:42:27.530 --> 00:42:30.650
playing German defense
attorney Hans Rolfe.

920
00:42:30.650 --> 00:42:32.710
Then we hear from John Wengraf

921
00:42:32.710 --> 00:42:35.370
playing Dr. Karl Wieck,

922
00:42:35.370 --> 00:42:37.970
former minister of justice
in Weimar Germany.

923
00:42:37.970 --> 00:42:38.550
HANS ROLFE: 
[played by Maximilian Schell]

924
00:42:38.550 --> 00:42:41.040
"Society can prevent their propagation

925
00:42:41.040 --> 00:42:43.740
by medical means
in the first place.

926
00:42:46.160 --> 00:42:48.560
Three generations
of imbeciles are enough."

927
00:42:51.770 --> 00:42:53.440
You recognize it now, Dr. Wieck?

928
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:55.170
DR. KARL WIECK: [played by John Wengraf]
No, sir, I don’t.

929
00:42:56.490 --> 00:42:58.520
HANS ROLFE: Actually, there is
no particular reason you should,

930
00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:01.640
since the opinion upholds
a sterilization law

931
00:43:01.640 --> 00:43:04.170
in the state of Virginia,
of the United States,

932
00:43:05.210 --> 00:43:07.660
and was written and delivered
by that great American jurist,

933
00:43:07.660 --> 00:43:09.420
Supreme Court Justice Oliver

934
00:43:09.990 --> 00:43:12.310
Wendell Holmes.

935
00:43:12.900 --> 00:43:15.870
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That was a clip
from the film Judgment at Nuremberg.

936
00:43:15.870 --> 00:43:18.700
So, Adam Cohen, in this film,

937
00:43:18.700 --> 00:43:22.660
they actually cite Supreme Court
Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes.

938
00:43:23.250 --> 00:43:24.680
ADAM COHEN: And this happened
in history, as well.

939
00:43:24.680 --> 00:43:26.510
This happened at
the actual Nuremberg trials.

940
00:43:26.510 --> 00:43:29.480
So, after World War II,
we put the leading Nazis on trial

941
00:43:29.480 --> 00:43:31.630
for some of the worst things
that the Nazis did.

942
00:43:31.630 --> 00:43:34.730
One of those very bad things
was they set up a eugenics program

943
00:43:34.730 --> 00:43:38.480
where they sterilized
as many as 375,000 people.

944
00:43:38.480 --> 00:43:39.900
So we put them on trial for that.

945
00:43:39.900 --> 00:43:42.290
And lo and behold,
as the movie shows,

946
00:43:42.290 --> 00:43:44.930
their defense was:
"How can you put us on trial for that?

947
00:43:44.930 --> 00:43:46.660
Your own U.S. Supreme Court

948
00:43:46.660 --> 00:43:49.680
said that sterilization
was constitutional, was good.

949
00:43:49.680 --> 00:43:51.530
And it was your own
Oliver Wendell Holmes,

950
00:43:51.530 --> 00:43:53.980
one of your most revered figures,
who said that.

951
00:43:53.980 --> 00:43:56.330
So, why are we the bad guys
in this story?"

952
00:43:56.330 --> 00:43:57.600
They had a point.

953
00:43:57.600 --> 00:44:01.570
NERMEEN SHAIKH: So can you explain
when and why the eugenics movement

954
00:44:01.570 --> 00:44:04.000
took hold in the U.S.?
ADAM COHEN: Yeah.

955
00:44:04.000 --> 00:44:07.520
So, it came over in the early '10s

956
00:44:07.520 --> 00:44:10.400
and ’20s, 1910s and 1920s.

957
00:44:10.400 --> 00:44:12.280
This was actually a very nervous time.

958
00:44:12.280 --> 00:44:14.350
You know, you see movies now
about the 1920s,

959
00:44:14.350 --> 00:44:16.490
you see flappers
and Prohibition and parties.

960
00:44:16.490 --> 00:44:19.760
But America was actually
at a time of quiet turmoil.

961
00:44:19.760 --> 00:44:21.560
There were the highest rates
of immigration

962
00:44:21.560 --> 00:44:23.660
that there had been
in American history,

963
00:44:23.660 --> 00:44:26.640
so the nation's cities were flooded
with new immigrants,

964
00:44:26.640 --> 00:44:28.160
often with different religions,

965
00:44:28.160 --> 00:44:30.250
different nationalities from the people
who were already here.

966
00:44:30.250 --> 00:44:33.010
Also, people were leaving the farms
and moving to the cities.

967
00:44:33.010 --> 00:44:34.620
So it was a time of instability.

968
00:44:34.620 --> 00:44:36.530
And historians suggest that in this time

969
00:44:36.530 --> 00:44:38.500
of instability,
the upper classes,

970
00:44:38.500 --> 00:44:40.510
the Anglo-Saxons in the United States,

971
00:44:40.510 --> 00:44:42.980
wanted to somehow control
a changing country.

972
00:44:42.980 --> 00:44:45.230
And the way they saw
of controlling it was eugenics:

973
00:44:45.230 --> 00:44:47.650
"We need to firm up our gene pool."

974
00:44:47.650 --> 00:44:51.410
So it was that anxiety that got moved
into this eugenics movement.

975
00:44:51.410 --> 00:44:53.010
And they combined it
with the new science

976
00:44:53.010 --> 00:44:54.250
of genetics that was emerging,

977
00:44:54.250 --> 00:44:56.830
and they came up
with these crazy sterilization laws.

978
00:44:56.830 --> 00:44:58.180
AMY GOODMAN: So, at the time,

979
00:44:58.180 --> 00:45:00.180
the establishment
of the United States

980
00:45:00.180 --> 00:45:03.520
saw the threat
as the mass of immigration,

981
00:45:03.520 --> 00:45:06.540
the waves of immigration of Jews,

982
00:45:06.540 --> 00:45:08.300
of Italians.

983
00:45:08.300 --> 00:45:10.110
ADAM COHEN: Yes,
and there were best-selling books,

984
00:45:10.110 --> 00:45:13.500
a book by Madison Grant called
The Passing of the Great Race.

985
00:45:13.500 --> 00:45:16.810
And this was about how whites
around the world were in danger.

986
00:45:16.810 --> 00:45:19.910
They were being swamped by
the so-called colored people everywhere.

987
00:45:19.910 --> 00:45:22.450
These were real anxieties,
adopted at the highest levels.

988
00:45:22.450 --> 00:45:24.540
And in The Great Gatsby,
there’s actually a scene

989
00:45:24.540 --> 00:45:26.940
in which Daisy Buchanan’s husband Tom,

990
00:45:26.940 --> 00:45:29.210
at a party, begins going off
about this book

991
00:45:29.210 --> 00:45:32.160
he’s read about how the colored people
are taking over the world.

992
00:45:32.160 --> 00:45:34.740
That actually was representative
of the fears

993
00:45:34.740 --> 00:45:36.230
of the upper classes of America.

994
00:45:36.230 --> 00:45:38.150
And it got channeled into eugenics.

995
00:45:38.150 --> 00:45:40.670
AMY GOODMAN: A few years
after leaving the White House,

996
00:45:40.670 --> 00:45:43.610
President Theodore Roosevelt
wrote in a magazine, quote,

997
00:45:43.610 --> 00:45:44.910
"I wish very much

998
00:45:44.910 --> 00:45:46.160
that the wrong people

999
00:45:46.160 --> 00:45:49.180
could be prevented entirely
from breeding ...

1000
00:45:49.180 --> 00:45:50.970
Feeble-minded persons
[should be]

1001
00:45:50.970 --> 00:45:53.080
forbidden to leave offspring

1002
00:45:53.080 --> 00:45:55.460
behind them."
ADAM COHEN: He did say that.

1003
00:45:55.460 --> 00:45:57.980
And, you know, I was
on the Amtrak the other day,

1004
00:45:57.980 --> 00:46:01.030
and I just happened to be sitting next
to a revered American historian,

1005
00:46:01.030 --> 00:46:02.740
Richard Reeves,
and we were talking about this.

1006
00:46:02.740 --> 00:46:05.620
And he had just finished a book
about the Japanese interment.

1007
00:46:05.620 --> 00:46:07.260
And he said he was shocked to learn

1008
00:46:07.260 --> 00:46:09.350
that FDR was actually a eugenicist, too.

1009
00:46:09.350 --> 00:46:11.990
And one of the things
animating the Japanese interment

1010
00:46:11.990 --> 00:46:15.310
was that FDR thought that
the Japanese were, you know, inferior.

1011
00:46:15.310 --> 00:46:17.350
So this was widely held by people

1012
00:46:17.350 --> 00:46:19.670
that we as a country still admire.

1013
00:46:19.670 --> 00:46:21.060
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, in your book,
you also talk

1014
00:46:21.060 --> 00:46:24.700
about the U.S. 1924 Immigration Act

1015
00:46:24.700 --> 00:46:27.800
and how it was praised
by Hitler in Mein Kampf.

1016
00:46:27.800 --> 00:46:31.190
So could you talk
about the act itself

1017
00:46:31.190 --> 00:46:36.150
and how it was linked
to this growing support for eugenics?

1018
00:46:36.150 --> 00:46:39.860
ADAM COHEN: Yes, it was largely,
in large part, motivated by eugenics.

1019
00:46:39.860 --> 00:46:42.780
So, this hero—this villain of the book
that I mentioned, Harry Laughlin,

1020
00:46:42.780 --> 00:46:46.830
he was actually appointed
expert eugenics agent to Congress.

1021
00:46:46.830 --> 00:46:50.220
There’s letterhead
from the U.S. House Committee

1022
00:46:50.220 --> 00:46:52.470
on Immigration
that says "expert eugenics agent."

1023
00:46:52.470 --> 00:46:55.370
He testified about
the eugenic advantages

1024
00:46:55.370 --> 00:46:57.490
and disadvantages
of various nationalities,

1025
00:46:57.490 --> 00:47:01.530
and he persuaded Congress
that Eastern European Jews, Italians,

1026
00:47:01.530 --> 00:47:04.730
Asians were genetically inferior
and we had to keep them out.

1027
00:47:04.730 --> 00:47:07.540
That ends up being translated
into the 1924 law,

1028
00:47:07.540 --> 00:47:11.120
which puts in place
for the first time national quotas.

1029
00:47:11.120 --> 00:47:13.300
So you can no longer just
show up at Ellis Island.

1030
00:47:13.300 --> 00:47:15.620
If you’re coming from some countries,
we don’t want you.

1031
00:47:15.620 --> 00:47:18.680
If you’re coming from England
and northern Europe, we do want you.

1032
00:47:18.680 --> 00:47:23.140
So, this ended up completely changing
the national composition of immigration,

1033
00:47:23.140 --> 00:47:25.820
and it was because certain people
were deemed to be inferior.

1034
00:47:25.820 --> 00:47:28.830
And one thing that I thought about
when I wrote the book is,

1035
00:47:28.830 --> 00:47:30.600
when we read The Diary
of Anne Frank

1036
00:47:30.600 --> 00:47:33.370
and we realize that she died
in a concentration camp,

1037
00:47:33.370 --> 00:47:37.460
we think about how the Nazis thought
the Jews were a lesser race,

1038
00:47:37.460 --> 00:47:39.800
and that’s why they were put
in concentration camps.

1039
00:47:39.800 --> 00:47:41.410
What we don’t think about it is,

1040
00:47:41.410 --> 00:47:42.870
Anne Frank’s father

1041
00:47:42.870 --> 00:47:45.880
was actually trying to get her
and the family to America.

1042
00:47:45.880 --> 00:47:48.390
He was writing repeatedly
to the State Department

1043
00:47:48.390 --> 00:47:49.960
for visas.
He was turned down.

1044
00:47:49.960 --> 00:47:52.550
He was turned down
because of this 1924 act.

1045
00:47:52.550 --> 00:47:55.610
So when we hear that Anne Frank
died in a concentration camp,

1046
00:47:55.610 --> 00:47:57.570
it’s also because the U.S. Congress,

1047
00:47:57.570 --> 00:48:00.530
like the Nazis, thought
the Jews were an inferior race.

1048
00:48:00.530 --> 00:48:03.280
AMY GOODMAN: Now, interestingly,
on the Supreme Court

1049
00:48:03.280 --> 00:48:05.330
and one of those
who believed in eugenics,

1050
00:48:05.330 --> 00:48:08.000
was the Jewish Supreme Court justice,

1051
00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.800
Louis Brandeis?
ADAM COHEN: That’s absolutely right.

1052
00:48:09.800 --> 00:48:11.610
And, you know, it’s one
of the great mysteries,

1053
00:48:11.610 --> 00:48:14.470
is why someone like that
would take that view.

1054
00:48:14.470 --> 00:48:16.350
And Louis Brandeis
never talked about it.

1055
00:48:16.350 --> 00:48:19.430
And again, it’s part of our history
that’s been airbrushed out.

1056
00:48:19.430 --> 00:48:20.920
When I started working on this book,

1057
00:48:20.920 --> 00:48:23.230
I was very excited to get
a major biography

1058
00:48:23.230 --> 00:48:26.140
of Louis Brandeis, written
by a very respected law professor,

1059
00:48:26.140 --> 00:48:27.430
900 pages.

1060
00:48:27.430 --> 00:48:29.640
And I was looking to see
how he explains this.

1061
00:48:29.640 --> 00:48:31.960
It only mentions Buck
v. Bell in a footnote.

1062
00:48:31.960 --> 00:48:36.090
No one wants to talk about this part
of Louis Brandeis’s legal career.

1063
00:48:36.090 --> 00:48:39.020
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
Buck v. Bell was decided eight to one,

1064
00:48:39.020 --> 00:48:41.200
so who was the one dissenting judge?

1065
00:48:41.200 --> 00:48:44.020
ADAM COHEN: The one dissenting judge was
actually the one Catholic on the court.

1066
00:48:44.020 --> 00:48:45.830
And interestingly, the one group

1067
00:48:45.830 --> 00:48:49.010
that really did oppose the eugenics
movement was the Catholic Church.

1068
00:48:49.010 --> 00:48:51.560
They believe both in the idea
of reproduction,

1069
00:48:51.560 --> 00:48:53.530
which we see in the abortion issue,

1070
00:48:53.530 --> 00:48:57.550
but also they believe that people should
be judged on their spiritual qualities,

1071
00:48:57.550 --> 00:48:58.890
on who they are inside,

1072
00:48:58.890 --> 00:49:00.670
not by these external qualities

1073
00:49:00.670 --> 00:49:02.510
that the eugenicists were focusing on.

1074
00:49:02.510 --> 00:49:04.930
So, when there were
sterilization law bills

1075
00:49:04.930 --> 00:49:08.150
that were put up before legislatures
around the country, the one group

1076
00:49:08.150 --> 00:49:10.010
that would consistently show up
to oppose them

1077
00:49:10.010 --> 00:49:13.740
was Catholics—nuns, priests,
Catholic laypeople.

1078
00:49:13.740 --> 00:49:16.930
And there were states like Louisiana
with large Catholic populations,

1079
00:49:16.930 --> 00:49:18.220
where bills were voted down really

1080
00:49:18.220 --> 00:49:20.760
because of the opposition
of the Catholic Church.

1081
00:49:20.760 --> 00:49:23.520
AMY GOODMAN: So,
let’s talk about sterilization.

1082
00:49:23.520 --> 00:49:26.430
What actually happened to—we’re talking

1083
00:49:26.430 --> 00:49:29.080
about up to 70,000 people,

1084
00:49:29.080 --> 00:49:32.270
mainly women, but a number of men?

1085
00:49:32.270 --> 00:49:35.260
What were the operations
they were put through?

1086
00:49:35.260 --> 00:49:36.610
Where did this happen?

1087
00:49:37.340 --> 00:49:39.650
ADAM COHEN: Yeah, it’s kind
of barbaric to think about.

1088
00:49:39.650 --> 00:49:42.410
And actually, before,
in the early stage of eugenics,

1089
00:49:42.410 --> 00:49:43.990
it started out with castration.

1090
00:49:43.990 --> 00:49:46.630
And the eugenicists were having trouble
getting legislatures

1091
00:49:46.630 --> 00:49:48.770
to adopt eugenic sterilization laws,

1092
00:49:48.770 --> 00:49:51.390
because people didn’t like the idea
of actually castrating people.

1093
00:49:51.390 --> 00:49:54.480
And it was actually the medical
advances—the rise of the vasectomy

1094
00:49:54.480 --> 00:49:56.650
and the salpingectomy,
which is what was done to women,

1095
00:49:56.650 --> 00:49:57.940
the cauterizing

1096
00:49:57.940 --> 00:50:00.660
of the Fallopian tubes—that made it
a little bit more palatable.

1097
00:50:00.660 --> 00:50:02.200
But these were still
terrible operations,

1098
00:50:02.200 --> 00:50:05.040
and you can imagine what surgery
was like in the 1920s.

1099
00:50:05.040 --> 00:50:06.440
So someone
like Carrie Buck

1100
00:50:06.440 --> 00:50:08.550
was sterilized
at the Colony for Epileptics

1101
00:50:08.550 --> 00:50:10.740
and Feebleminded by the man, the doctor,

1102
00:50:10.740 --> 00:50:12.560
who was the superintendent
of the colony,

1103
00:50:12.560 --> 00:50:14.890
and it was
a terribly invasive operation.

1104
00:50:14.890 --> 00:50:17.620
She had to recover for two weeks.
They cut her open.

1105
00:50:17.620 --> 00:50:19.840
And, you know, all kinds of anesthesia

1106
00:50:19.840 --> 00:50:21.850
and medical procedures
were rather primitive then.

1107
00:50:21.850 --> 00:50:23.800
So this is what
the government was doing.

1108
00:50:23.800 --> 00:50:26.480
I mean, you think about
governmental invasion of your rights.

1109
00:50:26.480 --> 00:50:29.120
Now we’re concerned,
as we should be, about the government,

1110
00:50:29.120 --> 00:50:31.630
you know, reading our emails
and listening in to our phone calls.

1111
00:50:31.630 --> 00:50:33.840
They are operating on women and men

1112
00:50:33.840 --> 00:50:35.460
in this most barbaric way.

1113
00:50:35.460 --> 00:50:37.810
And, I mean,
it’s really shocking.

1114
00:50:37.810 --> 00:50:39.510
And as we’ve seen, the Supreme Court,

1115
00:50:39.510 --> 00:50:41.920
eight to one, said not only
that this is fine,

1116
00:50:41.920 --> 00:50:44.480
but the Supreme Court
encouraged the nation to do more.

1117
00:50:44.480 --> 00:50:48.420
It said, you know, not only is
the Virginia law constitutional,

1118
00:50:48.420 --> 00:50:50.430
not only is it OK
to sterilize Carrie Buck,

1119
00:50:50.430 --> 00:50:51.660
we need more of these operations.

1120
00:50:51.660 --> 00:50:54.650
AMY GOODMAN: So first
it’s the vilification of immigrants,

1121
00:50:55.180 --> 00:50:56.190
and then it’s this step.

1122
00:50:56.930 --> 00:50:58.830
ADAM COHEN: Yes.
You know, the eugenicists

1123
00:50:58.830 --> 00:51:00.420
were trying to protect the gene pool,

1124
00:51:00.420 --> 00:51:03.260
so they saw an external threat
and an internal threat,

1125
00:51:03.260 --> 00:51:05.410
and they were addressing them
at the same time.

1126
00:51:05.410 --> 00:51:08.920
Externally, they thought these lesser
people are coming into the country,

1127
00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:11.440
they’re going to harm
our gene pool, we have to keep them out.

1128
00:51:11.440 --> 00:51:14.510
And internally, they started looking
around the country and asking,

1129
00:51:14.510 --> 00:51:16.600
"Who are the people here
who have bad genes

1130
00:51:16.600 --> 00:51:17.930
who we need to eliminate?"

1131
00:51:17.930 --> 00:51:20.820
So, they looked at people
like Carrie Buck, who was poor,

1132
00:51:20.820 --> 00:51:23.200
who was undereducated, and they said,

1133
00:51:23.200 --> 00:51:25.610
"That’s the kind of people
we need to stop internally."

1134
00:51:25.610 --> 00:51:27.650
AMY GOODMAN: What happened
to Carrie Buck afterwards?

1135
00:51:27.650 --> 00:51:29.690
ADAM COHEN: Well, you know,
her story is so sad.

1136
00:51:29.690 --> 00:51:32.440
So, she did have a baby
that was a result of this rape

1137
00:51:32.440 --> 00:51:34.340
that ended up
putting her in the Colony

1138
00:51:34.340 --> 00:51:35.920
for Epileptics and Feebleminded.

1139
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:37.930
They had promised her
throughout the proceeding—and this is

1140
00:51:37.930 --> 00:51:40.000
in the legal briefs—that one good thing

1141
00:51:40.000 --> 00:51:41.290
about her being sterilized

1142
00:51:41.290 --> 00:51:43.240
is she would be returned
to her foster family,

1143
00:51:43.240 --> 00:51:44.640
which was actually raising her baby,

1144
00:51:44.640 --> 00:51:48.340
so at least she would be able to spend
her life raising her daughter Vivian.

1145
00:51:48.340 --> 00:51:49.670
But, in fact, as soon

1146
00:51:49.670 --> 00:51:51.090
as they get the court order

1147
00:51:51.090 --> 00:51:52.400
that she can be sterilized

1148
00:51:52.400 --> 00:51:54.840
and she’s sterilized,
they ask the Dobbs family,

1149
00:51:54.840 --> 00:51:57.440
her foster family, to take her back,
and the Dobbs family said,

1150
00:51:57.440 --> 00:51:58.920
"Well, no, actually,
we don’t want her."

1151
00:51:58.920 --> 00:52:01.350
So she doesn’t get
to live with her baby.

1152
00:52:01.350 --> 00:52:04.380
And then she gets put in a series
of household placements,

1153
00:52:04.380 --> 00:52:05.620
where she becomes a housekeeper.

1154
00:52:05.620 --> 00:52:07.230
She marries a couple of times.

1155
00:52:07.230 --> 00:52:09.160
But she always wanted babies.

1156
00:52:09.160 --> 00:52:10.670
And at the end of her life, she said

1157
00:52:10.670 --> 00:52:13.050
that she really wished
she had had a family, and she didn’t.

1158
00:52:13.050 --> 00:52:16.190
And one other sad part
of the story is that people

1159
00:52:16.190 --> 00:52:19.020
who knew her later in life said
she absolutely was not feebleminded.

1160
00:52:19.020 --> 00:52:20.320
When she was at a retirement home,

1161
00:52:20.320 --> 00:52:22.150
she loved getting
the newspaper every day,

1162
00:52:22.150 --> 00:52:23.900
and she used to work
on the crossword puzzle.

1163
00:52:23.900 --> 00:52:26.360
And one other sad—there are so many
sad parts of the story,

1164
00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:28.060
but she had a sister, Doris,

1165
00:52:28.060 --> 00:52:29.530
who was also at the colony.

1166
00:52:29.530 --> 00:52:32.220
Doris was sterilized
shortly after she was.

1167
00:52:32.840 --> 00:52:34.980
Years later,
when she was an old woman,

1168
00:52:34.980 --> 00:52:36.590
she wanted to get Social Security,

1169
00:52:36.590 --> 00:52:38.060
and she wrote to the colony to find out

1170
00:52:38.060 --> 00:52:39.860
how old she was,
because she didn’t know.

1171
00:52:39.860 --> 00:52:42.630
And the colony director
came and visited her and told her

1172
00:52:42.630 --> 00:52:44.660
that she was old enough
for Social Security.

1173
00:52:44.660 --> 00:52:46.720
He also told her
that she had been sterilized.

1174
00:52:46.720 --> 00:52:48.890
She and her husband began crying,

1175
00:52:48.890 --> 00:52:51.600
because they had been trying
their whole lives to have children.

1176
00:52:51.600 --> 00:52:54.140
No one had ever told her
that the government had sterilized her.

1177
00:52:54.140 --> 00:52:55.900
She had been told
that she had an appendectomy.

1178
00:52:55.900 --> 00:52:58.370
And when she went to the doctor,
he said, "You have this scar."

1179
00:52:58.370 --> 00:53:01.060
And she said, "Yeah, it’s
because they did an appendectomy on me."

1180
00:53:01.060 --> 00:53:04.290
They had actually sterilized her,
and her whole life, she never knew.

1181
00:53:04.290 --> 00:53:06.360
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
last your, Virginia

1182
00:53:06.360 --> 00:53:10.740
agreed to compensate victims
of state-sponsored forced sterilization.

1183
00:53:10.740 --> 00:53:13.560
The state agreed to pay
each surviving victim

1184
00:53:13.560 --> 00:53:16.070
$25,000.

1185
00:53:16.070 --> 00:53:19.660
Lewis Reynolds is among
those who received compensation.

1186
00:53:19.660 --> 00:53:21.220
At the age of 13, Reynolds

1187
00:53:21.220 --> 00:53:23.950
was incorrectly diagnosed with epilepsy,

1188
00:53:23.950 --> 00:53:26.360
resulting in his forced sterilization.

1189
00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:28.040
Reynolds wasn’t even aware

1190
00:53:28.040 --> 00:53:30.230
that the state
had conducted the operation

1191
00:53:30.230 --> 00:53:31.440
until he and his wife

1192
00:53:31.440 --> 00:53:34.700
encountered trouble
starting a family years later.

1193
00:53:34.700 --> 00:53:36.840
Reynolds spoke to RT about the pain

1194
00:53:36.840 --> 00:53:39.070
of never being able to have children.

1195
00:53:39.940 --> 00:53:41.900
LEWIS REYNOLDS: I would love
to have had a family

1196
00:53:43.470 --> 00:53:45.870
and children and grandchildren, too.

1197
00:53:45.870 --> 00:53:48.240
And I wonder sometimes

1198
00:53:48.240 --> 00:53:50.120
what would I be like,

1199
00:53:50.120 --> 00:53:53.300
a father to my children,

1200
00:53:53.300 --> 00:53:59.460
if I could have any—excuse me—and play
with them and everything,

1201
00:53:59.460 --> 00:54:01.340
just like everybody else does.

1202
00:54:02.080 --> 00:54:05.500
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That was Lewis Reynolds
speaking to RT, a victim,

1203
00:54:05.500 --> 00:54:07.700
one of the many surviving victims

1204
00:54:07.700 --> 00:54:09.510
of forced sterilization.

1205
00:54:09.510 --> 00:54:12.960
So could you talk
about Virginia’s decision

1206
00:54:12.960 --> 00:54:16.560
to compensate victims,
surviving victims?

1207
00:54:16.560 --> 00:54:21.310
And also, much like Carrie Buck,
Lewis Reynolds also wasn’t told

1208
00:54:21.310 --> 00:54:23.840
that he had been subjected
to forced sterilization.

1209
00:54:23.840 --> 00:54:26.420
So why did the government
not tell people

1210
00:54:26.420 --> 00:54:27.810
that this is what they were doing?

1211
00:54:28.710 --> 00:54:31.330
ADAM COHEN: Well, I don’t think
that they wanted opposition, right?

1212
00:54:31.330 --> 00:54:32.920
It’s much easier
to sterilize someone

1213
00:54:32.920 --> 00:54:34.590
against their will
if you don’t tell them what’s going on.

1214
00:54:34.590 --> 00:54:36.130
As with Doris Buck, they said,

1215
00:54:36.130 --> 00:54:38.360
you know, "You have a medical problem.

1216
00:54:38.360 --> 00:54:40.320
You have appendicitis.
We have to operate on you."

1217
00:54:40.320 --> 00:54:42.600
You know, if you say, "We want
to stop you from having children,"

1218
00:54:42.600 --> 00:54:43.820
maybe you get some pushback.

1219
00:54:43.820 --> 00:54:45.960
So I think it was easier
for the doctors involved.

1220
00:54:46.520 --> 00:54:47.840
And then, yeah,

1221
00:54:47.840 --> 00:54:50.360
they have begun
a process of reparations,

1222
00:54:50.360 --> 00:54:52.090
but it was so slow in coming.

1223
00:54:52.090 --> 00:54:55.760
On the 75th anniversary
of this case, in 2002,

1224
00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:57.280
the governor Virginia

1225
00:54:57.280 --> 00:55:00.440
apologized for the sterilizations
that occurred,

1226
00:55:00.440 --> 00:55:02.190
but they didn’t begin
to compensate people then.

1227
00:55:02.190 --> 00:55:03.630
They just did that this year.

1228
00:55:03.630 --> 00:55:05.910
So, as a result, I was actually
in Virginia yesterday,

1229
00:55:05.910 --> 00:55:07.660
and someone told me
that what they had heard

1230
00:55:07.660 --> 00:55:09.060
is that only eight people

1231
00:55:09.060 --> 00:55:11.910
so far have actually
applied for reparations,

1232
00:55:11.910 --> 00:55:13.540
because so many have died now.

1233
00:55:13.540 --> 00:55:14.760
If you think about
all the people

1234
00:55:14.760 --> 00:55:16.710
who were sterilized
in the 1920s

1235
00:55:16.710 --> 00:55:17.910
and 1930s,

1236
00:55:17.910 --> 00:55:19.570
they lived their whole lives

1237
00:55:19.570 --> 00:55:22.340
and died never being
in any way compensated.

1238
00:55:22.340 --> 00:55:25.230
AMY GOODMAN: What happened with the law
upheld by Buck v. Bell?

1239
00:55:25.770 --> 00:55:28.540
ADAM COHEN: So it actually remained
in place for a long time.

1240
00:55:29.200 --> 00:55:31.830
There was a lot more sterilization

1241
00:55:31.830 --> 00:55:34.080
after the Supreme Court ruling.

1242
00:55:34.080 --> 00:55:37.160
Other states began to adopt such laws.

1243
00:55:37.160 --> 00:55:40.680
Mississippi passed
a eugenic sterilization law in 1928.

1244
00:55:40.680 --> 00:55:42.670
Virginia kept its on the books

1245
00:55:42.670 --> 00:55:44.050
until the 1970s,

1246
00:55:44.050 --> 00:55:46.740
and it was actually sterilizing people
through the 1970s.

1247
00:55:46.740 --> 00:55:48.480
AMY GOODMAN: And Buck v. Bell itself?

1248
00:55:48.480 --> 00:55:49.820
ADAM COHEN: Is still the law the land.

1249
00:55:49.820 --> 00:55:51.740
In 1942, the Supreme Court

1250
00:55:51.740 --> 00:55:54.960
got another eugenic sterilization case,
out of Oklahoma.

1251
00:55:54.960 --> 00:55:57.630
They had the opportunity
to overturn Buck v. Bell.

1252
00:55:57.630 --> 00:55:59.460
You might think they would have,
because at that point

1253
00:55:59.460 --> 00:56:01.010
we were at war
with the Nazis,

1254
00:56:01.010 --> 00:56:03.880
the idea of a master race
had really been discredited.

1255
00:56:03.880 --> 00:56:06.760
But the Supreme Court, in striking
down the Oklahoma law,

1256
00:56:06.760 --> 00:56:08.090
did it very narrowly.

1257
00:56:08.090 --> 00:56:09.740
And the justice
who wrote the decision later

1258
00:56:09.740 --> 00:56:11.970
said they didn’t want
to overturn Buck v. Bell.

1259
00:56:11.970 --> 00:56:14.280
And incredibly, in 2001,

1260
00:56:14.280 --> 00:56:16.380
the U.S. Court of Appeals

1261
00:56:16.380 --> 00:56:17.590
in Missouri,

1262
00:56:17.590 --> 00:56:19.950
which is one step
below the U.S. Supreme Court,

1263
00:56:19.950 --> 00:56:21.690
cited Buck v. Bell in a case

1264
00:56:21.690 --> 00:56:24.770
involving sterilization
of a mildly mentally retarded woman.

1265
00:56:24.770 --> 00:56:27.080
It is still the law
of the land today.

1266
00:56:27.080 --> 00:56:28.820
AMY GOODMAN: The parallels today?

1267
00:56:28.820 --> 00:56:30.500
ADAM COHEN: The parallels
are very strong, right?

1268
00:56:30.500 --> 00:56:31.720
So, first of all,

1269
00:56:31.720 --> 00:56:35.700
there is some subterranean eugenic
sterilization going on right now.

1270
00:56:35.700 --> 00:56:37.680
We hear about cases in prisons

1271
00:56:37.680 --> 00:56:40.050
where women are sterilized
without their consent.

1272
00:56:40.050 --> 00:56:42.240
There was a case in Tennessee
a couple years ago

1273
00:56:42.240 --> 00:56:44.600
where a prosecutor
was fired allegedly

1274
00:56:44.600 --> 00:56:48.330
for making eugenic sterilization part
of his plea negotiations.

1275
00:56:48.330 --> 00:56:51.470
And the danger is,
as we know,

1276
00:56:51.470 --> 00:56:53.690
we’re in rather strange political times,

1277
00:56:53.690 --> 00:56:56.120
as we talked about
at the beginning of the show.

1278
00:56:56.660 --> 00:56:58.890
We don’t know if there’s going
to be another eugenics movement.

1279
00:56:58.890 --> 00:57:00.900
We don’t know if states
will start to pass these laws.

1280
00:57:00.900 --> 00:57:03.100
We don’t know if Congress
might pass these laws.

1281
00:57:03.100 --> 00:57:04.600
There’s a lot
of fear in the land.

1282
00:57:04.600 --> 00:57:05.910
Well, it would be nice to think

1283
00:57:05.910 --> 00:57:08.780
that the U.S. Supreme Court would defend
the victims of these laws,

1284
00:57:08.780 --> 00:57:11.970
but right now they’re on record
saying it is constitutional.

1285
00:57:11.970 --> 00:57:14.440
AMY GOODMAN: We talked about immigrants.
What about African Americans

1286
00:57:14.440 --> 00:57:16.150
through the ’20s
and the ’30s?

1287
00:57:16.150 --> 00:57:19.150
ADAM COHEN: Well, it’s a strange story.
So, in the 1920s,

1288
00:57:19.150 --> 00:57:22.600
the same day that Virginia passed
the eugenic sterilization law,

1289
00:57:22.600 --> 00:57:25.290
they passed their Racial Purity Act,
the exact same day.

1290
00:57:25.290 --> 00:57:26.520
The reason they did that was

1291
00:57:26.520 --> 00:57:29.550
that the eugenicists
of that time were so racist

1292
00:57:29.550 --> 00:57:32.090
that they actually didn’t
bother with eugenics for blacks.

1293
00:57:32.090 --> 00:57:34.550
They thought the black race
was beyond saving.

1294
00:57:34.550 --> 00:57:36.830
Their whole focus
was uplifting the white race.

1295
00:57:36.830 --> 00:57:38.810
So they did two things.
They built a wall

1296
00:57:38.810 --> 00:57:40.960
of separation between the white
and black races.

1297
00:57:40.960 --> 00:57:42.880
They imposed large penalties

1298
00:57:42.880 --> 00:57:45.490
for any kind of sexual unions
between blacks and whites.

1299
00:57:45.490 --> 00:57:46.900
And once they built that wall,

1300
00:57:46.900 --> 00:57:48.730
they focused on uplifting
the white race.

1301
00:57:48.730 --> 00:57:51.610
So that’s why they were focused
on white women like Carrie Buck.

1302
00:57:51.610 --> 00:57:54.930
But then, over the years,
many blacks were sterilized.

1303
00:57:54.930 --> 00:57:57.420
And in places
like North Carolina in the ’70s,

1304
00:57:57.420 --> 00:57:59.850
it was a lot of poor black people
who were sterilized.

1305
00:57:59.850 --> 00:58:01.180
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Just before we end,

1306
00:58:01.180 --> 00:58:04.470
explain when and why
the U.S. scientific community

1307
00:58:04.470 --> 00:58:06.150
gave up on eugenics.

1308
00:58:06.150 --> 00:58:07.350
ADAM COHEN: Yeah, so,
at the beginning, they

1309
00:58:07.350 --> 00:58:08.670
were among the biggest cheerleaders.

1310
00:58:08.670 --> 00:58:10.870
The medical journals
of the 1910s

1311
00:58:10.870 --> 00:58:13.200
and ’20s were enthusiastic
about eugenics.

1312
00:58:13.200 --> 00:58:16.810
Harvard geneticists were
in favor of eugenics.

1313
00:58:16.810 --> 00:58:18.450
Over time, though,
it became discredited,

1314
00:58:18.450 --> 00:58:20.830
I think, in part because of
the rise of the Nazis.

1315
00:58:20.830 --> 00:58:22.400
So this Eugenics Record Office,

1316
00:58:22.400 --> 00:58:25.020
which was
a scientific pro-eugenics operation,

1317
00:58:25.020 --> 00:58:26.800
was funded by the Carnegie Institution.

1318
00:58:26.800 --> 00:58:28.910
They lost their funding
in the late ’30s

1319
00:58:28.910 --> 00:58:30.450
because of the rise of Nazism.

1320
00:58:30.450 --> 00:58:32.900
AMY GOODMAN: Well, Adam Cohen,
it’s an astounding book.

1321
00:58:32.900 --> 00:58:34.930
The book is called Imbeciles:

1322
00:58:34.930 --> 00:58:37.320
The Supreme Court,
American Eugenics,

1323
00:58:37.320 --> 00:58:39.460
and the Sterilization of Carrie Buck.

1324
00:58:39.460 --> 00:58:42.300
Adam Cohen is journalist
and lawyer, previously member

1325
00:58:42.300 --> 00:58:44.340
of The New York Times editorial board,

1326
00:58:44.340 --> 00:58:46.260
former senior writer
for Time magazine.

1327
00:58:46.260 --> 00:58:50.360
He’s the co-editor
of TheNationalBookReview.com.

1328
00:58:50.360 --> 00:58:52.930
This is Democracy
Now!, democracynow.org.

1329
00:58:52.930 --> 00:58:54.550
Happy birthday to Ariel Boone.

1330
00:58:54.550 --> 00:58:56.680
Democracy Now! has three job openings.