WEBVTT

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From New York,

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this is Democracy Now!

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I did not commit an impeachable offense.

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There’s no reasoning
for an impeachment process.

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I don’t have offshore accounts.

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I never received kickbacks.

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I never condoned corruption.

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This is a delicate process
and is legally flimsy,

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an unjust process unleashed
on an honest and innocent person.

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In Brazil,
the Senate

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removes Dilma Rousseff as president,

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as Vice President Temer takes power.

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We’ll go to Rio de Janeiro
for the latest.

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Unlike Rousseff, Temer

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faces corruption charges

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and has just appointed
an all-male, all-white Cabinet

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for the first time since 1979.

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Then to Syria.

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The members
of the Security Council

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expressed outrage

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at all recent attacks in Syria

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directed against civilians
and civilian objects,

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including medical facilities,

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as well as all indiscriminate attacks,

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and stressed that these actions
may amount to war crimes.

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As the death toll

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in Syria’s five-year conflict

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reportedly reaches
half a million people,

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we’ll look at another story
that receives far less attention,

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that of Syrians
working at the local level

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to survive and organize amidst war

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and to keep the revolutionary spirit

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of the 2011 Syrian uprising alive.

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We’ll speak with Yasser Munif,

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a Syrian scholar

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who specializes
in grassroots movements in Syria.

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He’s co-founder of the Campaign

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for Global Solidarity
with the Syrian Revolution.

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Then, bird feeding.

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That’s the charge prisoners
are leveling against guards

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who are cutting back
on their food

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in order to force them back
to work—in some cases,

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with no pay
at all—after a 10-day work strike

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over labor and prison conditions.

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They will now be forced
to deal with the human rights issues

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of the men on the inside.

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So we see the strike
as a [inaudible]

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and a staging ground for future efforts

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in order to obtain the full effects

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of the freedom, justice
and equality and humanity

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that everyone is entitled to.

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We’ll get an update
from Pastor Kenneth Glasgow

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of The Ordinary People Society,

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who’s helping the prisoners in Alabama.

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And we’ll try to go
behind the bars

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and speak with a prisoner
in solitary confinement.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy
Now!, democracynow.org,

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The War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.
In Brazil,

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former Vice President
Michel Temer

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has taken power as interim president,

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after the Senate removed
President Dilma Rousseff

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and begins impeachment proceedings

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over accusations
she tampered with accounts

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in order to hide a budget shortfall.

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Rousseff has called the move a coup

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and vowed to fight it.

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On Thursday, she said
the impeachment trial

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is a threat to Brazil’s sovereignty

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and its Constitution.

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President Dilma Rousseff: "This
condition,

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the condition
of a president

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who was elected by 54 million people,

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to whom I say now, right now,

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at this divisive moment

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for Brazilian democracy
and for our future as a nation:

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What is in play
in the impeachment process

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isn’t just
my mandate;

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what is in play
is the respect of the polls,

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the sovereign will
of the Brazilian people

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and the Constitution."

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The attempt to oust President Rousseff

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has sparked massive protests
across Brazil.

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On Thursday, dozens of women
chained themselves to the gates

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of Brasília’s Planalto Palace
in support of Rousseff.

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Protester Fatima spoke out.

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Fatima: "The coup leaders in Brazil
are trying to get President Dilma out

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and are usurping our democracy.

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They will only get us
out of here by force,

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because we are defending
democracy and the elected mandate

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for more than half of Brazilians."

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We’ll go to Rio de Janeiro

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to speak with The Intercept reporter
Andrew Fishman after headlines.

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The Obama administration
is sending out letters

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to school districts
across the country

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saying students have the right
under federal law

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to use the bathroom that corresponds
to their gender identity.

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The directive
is not legally enforceable,

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although it does suggest
school districts

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could face lawsuits
or loss of funding

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if they fail to protect
transgender students

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from discrimination
and unequal access to facilities.

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This comes only days after
the Justice Department

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sued North Carolina

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over its anti-transgender law, HB 2,

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which bars transgender people

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from using the bathroom

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that corresponds
to their gender identity.

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It also invalidates local ordinances
aimed at protecting LGBT people

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from discrimination.

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Pope Francis
says he’ll establish a commission

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to study whether women could serve
as deacons in the Roman Catholic Church.

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Research suggests women widely
served as deacons

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in the church’s early history.

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In response to the pope,
the Women’s Ordination Conference

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said, "Opening
a commission

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to study the diaconate for women

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would be a great step
for the Vatican

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in recognizing its own history."

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In Washington, D.C.,

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House Speaker Paul Ryan’s opposition

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to presumptive Republican
presidential nominee

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Donald Trump appears to be fading,

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after the two met on
Capitol Hill Thursday.

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The two issued a joint statement saying,

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"While we were honest
about our few differences,

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we recognize that there are
also many important areas

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of common ground."

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This comes as an increasing number
of Republican Party leaders

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are choosing to back Donald Trump,

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despite the candidate’s
controversial proposals,

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which include deporting
11 million undocumented immigrants

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and building a wall
across the entire length

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of the U.S.-Mexico border,

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which experts have said is not feasible.

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Meanwhile,
the Secret Service

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says it will investigate
Donald Trump’s former butler

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over a Facebook post

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in which he referred to President Obama

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as a "Kenyan fraud"

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and called for him to be hanged.

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Anthony Senecal worked for Donald Trump

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for nearly 30 years.

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Trump’s campaign has said
it disavows Senecal’s statements.

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In Iraq,
ISIS militants have killed

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at least 20 Iraqi soldiers

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and tribal fighters
in suicide attacks near Ramadi.

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Meanwhile, gunmen
and suicide bombers killed 13 people

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when they stormed a coffee shop

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in a town north of Baghdad.

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No one has claimed
responsibility for this attack.

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It comes on the heels of a wave
of suicide attacks in the capital

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that killed at least
93 people on Wednesday.

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Meanwhile, in Syria,
fighting

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has broken out in a suburb
north of Aleppo,

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where a temporary ceasefire

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between the Assad regime
and opposition groups has expired.

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Before the ceasefire took effect Monday,

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Aleppo had been the site
of intense fighting this month,

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including an airstrike

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on an MSF-supported hospital

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that killed at least 14 patients

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and three doctors, including one
of the city’s last pediatricians.

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On Thursday, Aleppo resident
and mother Mayada Nazrian

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spoke out about finally
deciding to leave the city.

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Mayada Nazrian: "I have been in Aleppo

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since I was a little girl.

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I got married and had my kids here.

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We’ve suffered through this war
for five years.

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We’ve been patient for a year,

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two years, three years.

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We’ve lost a lot.

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We lost a martyr.
We lost our work.

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We lost everything we own
because of this war."

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We’ll have more on the ongoing conflict

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and how Syrians are organizing
in the midst of the war

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with scholar Yasser Munif
later in the broadcast.

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In Somalia,
a U.S. airstrike

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killed five people on Thursday.

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The Pentagon says the five
were militants

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with the extremist group al-Shabab.

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It’s the most recent
U.S. airstrike inside Somalia,

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including a series
of April drone strikes

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that killed at least eight people,

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and another in March
that killed 150 people.

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Meanwhile,
the Pentagon has admitted

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at least 25 U.S. soldiers

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have been stationed inside Libya
at two separate outposts

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since late 2015.

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It’s the latest sign
of U.S. military escalations in Libya.

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A former member
of the 9/11 Commission

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is calling on the Obama administration

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to declassify 28 pages

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of the congressional report

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on Saudi ties

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to the 2001 terrorist attack.

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John Lehman, the Navy secretary
in the Reagan administration,

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says he believes there’s evidence
some Saudi government officials

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offered support
to the 9/11 hijackers.

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Saudi Arabia was home to 15
of the 19 hijackers

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on 9/11.

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A federal judge
has ruled against a section

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of President Obama’s healthcare law,

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finding the administration
overstepped its authority

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in subsidizing deductibles, co-pays

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and other "cost-sharing" measures.

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The suit was brought
by House Republicans,

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who have unsuccessfully sought
to repeal Obama’s healthcare law.

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The suit argues the subsidies
were unconstitutional

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because Congress had already
rejected a request

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for this funding in 2014.

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The Obama administration
is expected to appeal.

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In Alabama, the execution
of death row prisoner

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Vernon Madison has been halted

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after his attorneys
argued dementia has left

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Madison unable

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to understand his death sentence.

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He was convicted of killing
a police officer in 1985.

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In a 4-4 decision,

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the U.S. Supreme Court
stayed the execution Thursday night,

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only hours before Madison was scheduled
to die by lethal injection

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at the Holman Correctional
Facility in Atmore.

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Later in the broadcast, we’ll go
to the Holman Correctional Facility

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to cover another issue there:

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a 10-day work strike by prisoners

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protesting severe overcrowding,
poor living conditions

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and the use of unpaid prison labor.

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We will go behind bars

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to speak with Kinetik Justice,

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a prisoner in solitary confinement

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who helped lead the strikes.

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Meanwhile,
Alabama Governor Robert Bentley

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has signed into law a measure
banning abortion clinics

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from operating within 2,000 feet

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of a K-8 public school.

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It’s the same rule applied
to sex offenders in Alabama.

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The law will force
at least two clinics

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in Alabama to close.

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The Immigration and Customs
Enforcement agency, known as ICE,

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is reportedly preparing to launch
a month-long campaign of raids

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specifically aimed at rounding up

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and deporting undocumented
Central American mothers and children.

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The effort contradicts
the Obama administration’s 2014 pledge

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to focus deportations
on "felons, not families."

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On Thursday, New York City Mayor
Bill de Blasio wrote,

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"I am outraged to read reports

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of future ICE raids

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planned for May and June targeting
Central American mothers and children.

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Many of these families have fled
violence in their home countries

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and seek safety here,

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in the city of immigrants."

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Google has announced

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it will ban advertising
by payday lenders from its site.

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It’s the company’s first global ban

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on a whole category
of financial products.

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Advocates argue that payday lending
is an exploitative industry

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that traps low-income people
in cycles of debt.

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In France, more than 50,000 people
took to the streets on Thursday,

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blockading roads
and barricading schools,

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as the French government
narrowly survived a vote

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00:11:48.840 --> 00:11:51.530
of no-confidence
in the National Assembly

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over President François Hollande’s
controversial labor reforms.

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Opponents of the bill
were about 40 votes

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00:11:58.500 --> 00:12:02.270
shy of the 288 necessary
to defeat the reforms.

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The controversial labor reforms
were forced through two days

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ago using a little-used power.

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The proposals have
sparked massive protests

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by students and unions across France.

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The movement has been dubbed

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"Nuit debout," or "Rise
up at night."

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On Thursday, Philippe Martinez,

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00:12:18.540 --> 00:12:22.480
general secretary
of the CGT union, spoke out.

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Philippe Martinez: "The most
important thing

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00:12:26.370 --> 00:12:28.040
is what the people are feeling.

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There hasn’t been any dialogue
with the unions,

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because the bill was imposed on us,

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and democracy has once again been
brushed aside at the National Assembly.

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I think that for a government
that talks a lot about dialogue,

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about debate, well,

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00:12:42.930 --> 00:12:45.850
they’re showing us
what their idea of dialogue is:

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Let’s move by force,

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let’s try and scare workers
and the young, the people.

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They should look at the polls,

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because over 70 percent of the people
in this country are against this bill."

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And those are some of the headlines

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this is Democracy Now,

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00:12:59.350 --> 00:13:02.070
Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: We begin today’s show
with the political turmoil

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engulfing Brazil.

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On Thursday, the country’s
former vice president, Michel Temer,

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assumed power as interim president

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00:13:19.180 --> 00:13:22.820
after the Senate voted
to suspend President Dilma Rousseff

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and begin impeachment proceedings.

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She is accused
of tampering with accounts

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in order to hide a budget shortfall.

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00:13:29.880 --> 00:13:31.770
The 55-to-22 vote

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followed more than 20 hours of debate.

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00:13:34.490 --> 00:13:37.070
One politician described it as, quote,

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"the saddest day
for Brazil’s young democracy."

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00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.100
Rousseff called it a coup.

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00:13:42.100 --> 00:13:43.460
She gave a defiant speech

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00:13:43.460 --> 00:13:45.560
before leaving the presidential palace,

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00:13:45.560 --> 00:13:46.970
where she was greeted and hugged

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00:13:46.970 --> 00:13:50.450
by former President Luiz
Inácio Lula da Silva.

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She vowed to fight the impeachment.

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00:13:52.920 --> 00:13:59.260
PRESIDENT DILMA ROUSSEFF: [translated]

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00:13:59.260 --> 00:14:01.780
It isn’t an impeachment; it’s a coup.

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00:14:01.780 --> 00:14:04.230
I did not commit high crimes
and misdemeanors.

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00:14:04.230 --> 00:14:07.230
There is no justification
for an impeachment charge.

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00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:09.300
I don’t have bank accounts abroad.

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00:14:09.300 --> 00:14:11.210
I never received bribes.

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00:14:11.210 --> 00:14:12.800
I never condoned corruption.

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00:14:19.950 --> 00:14:25.160
The trial against me is fragile,
legally inconsistent, unjust,

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00:14:25.160 --> 00:14:27.750
unleashed against an honest
and innocent person.

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00:14:32.870 --> 00:14:36.300
The greatest brutality that can be
committed against any person

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00:14:36.300 --> 00:14:38.810
is to punish them
for a crime they did not commit.

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00:14:38.810 --> 00:14:42.570
No injustice is more devastating
than condemning an innocent.

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00:14:50.240 --> 00:14:52.990
What is at stake is respect
for the ballot box,

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00:14:52.990 --> 00:14:54.330
the sovereign desires

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00:14:54.330 --> 00:14:56.750
of the Brazilian people
and the Constitution.

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00:14:56.750 --> 00:15:00.890
What is at stake are the achievements
of the last 13 years.

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00:15:00.890 --> 00:15:02.190
NERMEEN SHAIKH: President Dilma Rousseff

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00:15:02.190 --> 00:15:05.390
has been suspended
for up to 180 days

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00:15:05.390 --> 00:15:08.370
or until her Senate trial is concluded.

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00:15:08.370 --> 00:15:10.940
Attorney General José Eduardo Cardozo

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00:15:10.940 --> 00:15:14.550
called the Senate vote
a, quote, "historic injustice."

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00:15:14.550 --> 00:15:16.110
JOSÉ EDUARDO CARDOZO: [translated]

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00:15:16.110 --> 00:15:19.850
An honest and innocent woman
is, right at this moment,

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00:15:19.850 --> 00:15:21.150
being condemned.

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00:15:21.150 --> 00:15:25.410
A judicial pretense is being used
to oust a legitimately elected president

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00:15:25.410 --> 00:15:28.530
over acts which have been practiced
by all previous governments.

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00:15:28.530 --> 00:15:31.090
A historic injustice is being committed;

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00:15:31.090 --> 00:15:33.110
an innocent person is being condemned.

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00:15:33.110 --> 00:15:34.740
NERMEEN SHAIKH: The new
interim president

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00:15:34.740 --> 00:15:37.330
is not part
of Rousseff’s Workers’ Party,

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00:15:37.330 --> 00:15:40.540
but a member
of the opposition PMDB party.

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00:15:40.540 --> 00:15:44.530
Temer has been implicated
in Brazil’s massive corruption scandal

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00:15:44.530 --> 00:15:47.700
involving state-owned oil
company Petrobras.

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00:15:47.700 --> 00:15:51.200
Several of his top advisers
are also under investigation,

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00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:53.800
and just last week he was ordered
to pay a fine

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00:15:53.800 --> 00:15:56.460
for violating campaign finance limits.

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00:15:56.460 --> 00:15:58.950
After Thursday’s vote,
he vowed to, quote,

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00:15:58.950 --> 00:16:01.590
"restore respect"
to Brazil’s government.

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00:16:01.590 --> 00:16:11.570
INTERIM PRESIDENT MICHEL TEMER: 
[translated]

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00:16:11.570 --> 00:16:15.780
My first word to the Brazilian people
is the word "trust"—trust in the values

348
00:16:15.780 --> 00:16:17.720
that form the character of our people,

349
00:16:18.630 --> 00:16:21.590
the vitality of our democracy; trust

350
00:16:21.590 --> 00:16:23.780
in the recuperation
of our country’s economy,

351
00:16:23.780 --> 00:16:26.060
our country’s potential and its social

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00:16:26.060 --> 00:16:28.480
and political institutions.

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00:16:28.480 --> 00:16:31.100
AMY GOODMAN: Michel Temer
was sworn in Thursday

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00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:32.620
along with a new Cabinet

355
00:16:32.620 --> 00:16:35.130
that is all white
and all male,

356
00:16:35.130 --> 00:16:36.740
making this the first time

357
00:16:36.740 --> 00:16:41.140
since 1979 no women
have been in the Cabinet.

358
00:16:41.140 --> 00:16:43.100
The New York Times reports Temer

359
00:16:43.100 --> 00:16:44.830
attempted
to appoint a woman

360
00:16:44.830 --> 00:16:46.660
to oversee human rights policies,

361
00:16:46.660 --> 00:16:49.520
but faced blowback after it became clear

362
00:16:49.520 --> 00:16:52.990
she had voted in favor of legislation
to make it difficult for women

363
00:16:52.990 --> 00:16:55.090
who are raped to get abortions.

364
00:16:55.090 --> 00:16:57.650
Temer also offered the Science Ministry

365
00:16:57.650 --> 00:16:59.540
to an evangelical pastor

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00:16:59.540 --> 00:17:01.490
who does not believe in evolution,

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00:17:01.490 --> 00:17:05.260
and, when he faced opposition,
made him trade minister instead.

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00:17:05.260 --> 00:17:07.820
On Thursday, dozens of women
chained themselves to the gates

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00:17:07.820 --> 00:17:10.920
of Brasília’s Planalto
presidential palace

370
00:17:10.920 --> 00:17:14.450
to support suspended
Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff.

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00:17:14.450 --> 00:17:17.430
FATIMA: [translated]
The coup leaders in Brazil

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00:17:17.430 --> 00:17:19.480
are trying to get President Dilma out

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00:17:19.480 --> 00:17:21.110
and are usurping our democracy.

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00:17:21.110 --> 00:17:23.220
They will only get us
out of here by force,

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00:17:23.220 --> 00:17:26.170
because we are defending
democracy and the elected mandate

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00:17:26.170 --> 00:17:28.190
for more than half of Brazilians.

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00:17:28.190 --> 00:17:30.140
AMY GOODMAN: All of this comes
as Brazil is set

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00:17:30.140 --> 00:17:34.090
to host the 2016 Summer Olympics
in Rio de Janeiro in early August,

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00:17:34.090 --> 00:17:37.070
and parts of the country
are facing a Zika outbreak.

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00:17:37.070 --> 00:17:39.990
For more, we go directly
to Rio de Janeiro, Brazil,

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00:17:39.990 --> 00:17:41.530
where we’re joined
by Andrew Fishman,

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00:17:41.530 --> 00:17:43.560
a researcher and reporter
for The Intercept,

383
00:17:43.560 --> 00:17:45.790
where he’s covered Brazil extensively

384
00:17:45.790 --> 00:17:49.550
along with his co-authors
Glenn Greenwald and David Miranda.

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00:17:49.550 --> 00:17:51.590
Andrew Fishman,
welcome back to Democracy Now!

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00:17:51.590 --> 00:17:53.590
Talk about what’s happened.
ANDREW FISHMAN: Thank you.

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00:17:53.590 --> 00:17:56.250
AMY GOODMAN: The president,
or I should say at this point

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00:17:56.250 --> 00:17:58.530
the suspended president, Dilma Rousseff,

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00:17:58.530 --> 00:18:01.510
has called what’s
happening in Brazil a coup.

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00:18:04.180 --> 00:18:06.780
ANDREW FISHMAN: Yes,
there’s been a concerted action

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00:18:06.780 --> 00:18:08.490
to remove her from office

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00:18:08.490 --> 00:18:11.830
by the leaders
of the opposition in Congress

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00:18:11.830 --> 00:18:14.310
and also by the media.

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00:18:15.380 --> 00:18:17.510
The current interim president,

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00:18:17.510 --> 00:18:20.450
Michel Temer, was, before,
her vice president.

396
00:18:20.450 --> 00:18:22.050
They ran together twice.

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00:18:22.050 --> 00:18:24.930
And he was,
until very recently, her ally.

398
00:18:24.930 --> 00:18:28.180
And so, she’s had
very strong words against him

399
00:18:28.180 --> 00:18:30.060
for being one of the leaders

400
00:18:30.880 --> 00:18:33.020
to remove her from power.

401
00:18:33.020 --> 00:18:35.090
The Workers’ Party
was—has been in power.

402
00:18:35.090 --> 00:18:36.890
They’ve won four straight elections.

403
00:18:36.890 --> 00:18:39.780
They had—they have
great popular support,

404
00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:41.590
or they had, at least until recently,

405
00:18:41.590 --> 00:18:43.600
once the economy started going sour.

406
00:18:43.600 --> 00:18:45.600
And as is the case
in basically any country,

407
00:18:45.600 --> 00:18:47.910
once the economy goes south,

408
00:18:47.910 --> 00:18:49.800
so does the approval rating
of the president.

409
00:18:49.800 --> 00:18:51.750
The opposition,
seeing a chance

410
00:18:51.750 --> 00:18:54.150
to finally take advantage of this moment

411
00:18:54.150 --> 00:18:56.750
and get into—get
into a position of power,

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00:18:56.750 --> 00:18:58.780
decided that this is the moment,

413
00:18:58.780 --> 00:19:01.820
and they started pushing this case
for impeachment, which,

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00:19:02.390 --> 00:19:03.840
even though a lot
of the coverage

415
00:19:03.840 --> 00:19:06.330
that you’ve seen,
and especially down here in Brazil,

416
00:19:06.330 --> 00:19:08.220
has been based on corruption,
corruption, corruption,

417
00:19:08.220 --> 00:19:10.410
and the corruption case

418
00:19:10.410 --> 00:19:12.960
in Petrobras,

419
00:19:12.960 --> 00:19:15.740
the state oil company, this has nothing

420
00:19:15.740 --> 00:19:19.070
to do with her corruption—with
her impeachment proceedings.

421
00:19:19.590 --> 00:19:22.690
She’s being impeached on a technicality

422
00:19:22.690 --> 00:19:27.680
of some financial accounting measures,

423
00:19:27.680 --> 00:19:32.490
where she used
some state-sponsored banks

424
00:19:32.490 --> 00:19:34.590
to cover some short-term deficits,

425
00:19:34.590 --> 00:19:36.180
which were all paid back in the end.

426
00:19:37.340 --> 00:19:39.340
Basically, any jurist

427
00:19:39.340 --> 00:19:40.930
says that this is not—does not rise

428
00:19:40.930 --> 00:19:42.840
to the level of an impeachable offense,

429
00:19:42.840 --> 00:19:44.810
although the opposition has run with it.

430
00:19:45.430 --> 00:19:49.170
But in the discussion
that they’ve had going forward,

431
00:19:49.170 --> 00:19:52.330
they’ve always focused
on the impeachment angle—or,

432
00:19:52.330 --> 00:19:55.350
the corruption angle,
because it’s much more powerful.

433
00:19:55.350 --> 00:19:58.420
And the Brazilian people
are really fed up with corruption.

434
00:19:58.420 --> 00:20:00.820
One thing
that’s really noteworthy

435
00:20:00.820 --> 00:20:03.660
is that while the majority

436
00:20:03.660 --> 00:20:05.810
of the Brazilian population

437
00:20:06.360 --> 00:20:09.100
does support President Rousseff’s—or,

438
00:20:09.100 --> 00:20:12.150
former President Rousseff’s
removal from office,

439
00:20:12.150 --> 00:20:13.410
the majority all support,

440
00:20:13.410 --> 00:20:17.620
in similar margin—want
President Temer impeached,

441
00:20:17.620 --> 00:20:21.080
because they think that he’s also—that
he is involved in corruption,

442
00:20:21.080 --> 00:20:23.500
unlike Dilma, where there’s no proof
that she is.

443
00:20:23.500 --> 00:20:24.910
It’s very possible
that she is involved

444
00:20:24.910 --> 00:20:26.460
and she knew about the schemes,

445
00:20:26.460 --> 00:20:28.060
but there’s no evidence to that nature,

446
00:20:28.060 --> 00:20:30.360
whereas there is much greater evidence

447
00:20:30.360 --> 00:20:34.060
that Temer and his allies
are involved actively

448
00:20:34.060 --> 00:20:35.820
in corruption and illicit enrichment.

449
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:40.710
Only 8 percent of the population

450
00:20:40.710 --> 00:20:44.090
wants Temer as president,
which is shocking.

451
00:20:44.710 --> 00:20:46.230
In a most—in a recent poll,

452
00:20:46.230 --> 00:20:48.710
2 percent of the population
said that they would vote for him.

453
00:20:49.420 --> 00:20:51.990
If it weren’t for this impeachment,

454
00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:53.330
which they call a coup,

455
00:20:54.370 --> 00:20:57.140
it would have been impossible
for someone like Michel Temer

456
00:20:57.140 --> 00:20:59.120
to become the president of Brazil.

457
00:21:00.110 --> 00:21:01.720
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Andrew Fishman,
you mentioned

458
00:21:01.720 --> 00:21:05.610
that what Dilma Rousseff
is charged with

459
00:21:05.610 --> 00:21:08.980
is not in fact an impeachable offense,

460
00:21:08.980 --> 00:21:10.850
and many jurists agree on that.

461
00:21:10.850 --> 00:21:16.210
So how is it that she’s been impeached?
ANDREW FISHMAN: Yeah,

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00:21:16.210 --> 00:21:19.170
and, of course, I mean,
there are people—there are jurists

463
00:21:19.170 --> 00:21:21.530
aligned with the opposition
that say that it certainly is,

464
00:21:21.530 --> 00:21:22.860
it certainly does rise to the level.

465
00:21:22.860 --> 00:21:24.240
But, you know,

466
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.180
international observers far and wide,

467
00:21:26.180 --> 00:21:27.980
from international organizations

468
00:21:27.980 --> 00:21:30.410
to the press,
to diplomats,

469
00:21:30.410 --> 00:21:33.130
to a Nobel Peace Prize winner
in Argentina

470
00:21:33.130 --> 00:21:35.410
who fought
against the military dictatorship there,

471
00:21:35.410 --> 00:21:38.520
have all agreed
that this is not an impeachable offense,

472
00:21:38.520 --> 00:21:40.880
and therefore some call it a coup.

473
00:21:40.880 --> 00:21:42.790
Others say, at the very least,

474
00:21:42.790 --> 00:21:45.880
it is certainly an antidemocratic,
undemocratic action

475
00:21:45.880 --> 00:21:47.700
to remove her from power.

476
00:21:47.700 --> 00:21:50.240
AMY GOODMAN: On Thursday, Marcelo Ninio,

477
00:21:50.240 --> 00:21:53.740
from the Brazilian newspaper
Folha de São Paulo,

478
00:21:53.740 --> 00:21:56.250
questioned U.S. State
Department spokeswoman

479
00:21:56.250 --> 00:21:59.050
Elizabeth Trudeau
about the situation in Brazil.

480
00:21:59.930 --> 00:22:01.570
MARCELO NINIO: I wanted
to ask about Brazil first.

481
00:22:02.370 --> 00:22:05.030
It’s—what the State Department
and the U.S. government

482
00:22:05.030 --> 00:22:09.090
expect about the relationship
with the interim government?

483
00:22:09.090 --> 00:22:11.860
And has there been any communication yet

484
00:22:12.380 --> 00:22:14.330
with the new government?

485
00:22:14.330 --> 00:22:17.710
ELIZABETH TRUDEAU: Well, I can’t speak
to our embassy communication there.

486
00:22:17.710 --> 00:22:21.220
You know, as you know, we maintain
a strong bilateral relationship

487
00:22:21.220 --> 00:22:22.790
between our two countries.

488
00:22:22.790 --> 00:22:25.660
As the two largest democracies
in the hemisphere, Brazil

489
00:22:25.660 --> 00:22:28.270
and the United States
are committed partners.

490
00:22:28.270 --> 00:22:31.940
You know, we cooperate with Brazil
on a number of issues—you know,

491
00:22:31.940 --> 00:22:33.950
trade, security, environment.

492
00:22:33.950 --> 00:22:35.130
We expect that’ll continue.

493
00:22:35.690 --> 00:22:38.240
AMY GOODMAN: So that’s the U.S.
State Department, Andrew Fishman.

494
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:42.720
And Pravda, an article in Pravda,

495
00:22:42.720 --> 00:22:46.100
explained that over the last few years

496
00:22:46.100 --> 00:22:47.770
the BRICS nations—you know,

497
00:22:47.770 --> 00:22:50.360
that’s Brazil, Russia,
India, China

498
00:22:50.360 --> 00:22:54.320
and South Africa—have become
a significant geopolitical threat

499
00:22:54.320 --> 00:22:56.350
to the interests
of the United States.

500
00:22:56.350 --> 00:22:59.270
And again, this is Pravda,
the Russian paper,

501
00:22:59.270 --> 00:23:02.450
said it’s quite possible
the CIA is involved in the plan

502
00:23:02.450 --> 00:23:05.070
to stage riots
in Brazil nationwide,

503
00:23:05.070 --> 00:23:08.170
that U.S. intelligence agencies
are involved with this coup.

504
00:23:08.170 --> 00:23:10.030
Is there any evidence of this?

505
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:13.430
ANDREW FISHMAN: I mean,
there has been

506
00:23:13.430 --> 00:23:15.530
plenty of speculation about this.

507
00:23:16.170 --> 00:23:18.870
Obviously, the CIA operates in secrecy,

508
00:23:18.870 --> 00:23:21.710
so it’s difficult to say
one way or another.

509
00:23:21.710 --> 00:23:24.020
Dilma herself has said
that there’s absolutely

510
00:23:24.020 --> 00:23:25.320
no proof to that nature.

511
00:23:25.320 --> 00:23:28.850
I have not seen anything
that convinces me

512
00:23:28.850 --> 00:23:30.390
that that’s the case.

513
00:23:31.240 --> 00:23:35.200
Again, who knows
what the actual situation is?

514
00:23:35.810 --> 00:23:37.170
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Andrew Fishman,
even though—

515
00:23:37.170 --> 00:23:39.760
ANDREW FISHMAN: But also,
the State Department spokesman

516
00:23:40.900 --> 00:23:43.850
also said that she’s not sure
if the—if anyone

517
00:23:43.850 --> 00:23:47.410
from the United States has reached out
to President Temer to congratulate him.

518
00:23:47.410 --> 00:23:50.140
They referred to the White House.

519
00:23:50.140 --> 00:23:53.700
Josh Earnest, the spokesperson
for the White House,

520
00:23:53.700 --> 00:23:55.940
then said, "You should speak
to the State Department."

521
00:23:55.940 --> 00:23:59.480
So it’s not clear that
even any foreign leaders have gone out

522
00:23:59.480 --> 00:24:01.980
to congratulate President Temer,

523
00:24:01.980 --> 00:24:04.990
although the statement
that the State Department spokesman

524
00:24:04.990 --> 00:24:06.990
made, saying
that they believe

525
00:24:06.990 --> 00:24:11.870
that Brazil will continue
to function within democratic means

526
00:24:11.870 --> 00:24:14.020
and the democratic systems
and will be strengthened,

527
00:24:14.020 --> 00:24:16.430
it’s a tacit show
of support.

528
00:24:16.430 --> 00:24:19.340
I mean, they haven’t come out
strongly one way

529
00:24:19.340 --> 00:24:22.680
or another in public saying
that they’re for or against impeachment,

530
00:24:22.680 --> 00:24:26.170
because really that’s—the implication

531
00:24:26.170 --> 00:24:27.640
of that would be so strong.

532
00:24:27.640 --> 00:24:29.420
It would be—if it were in fact

533
00:24:29.420 --> 00:24:31.950
that the United States wanted this,

534
00:24:31.950 --> 00:24:34.470
wanted the Temer administration above

535
00:24:34.470 --> 00:24:37.010
Dilma’s administration—and I believe
that is the case,

536
00:24:37.010 --> 00:24:38.300
that they much prefer,

537
00:24:38.300 --> 00:24:40.310
as the foreign investors

538
00:24:40.310 --> 00:24:42.910
much prefer, having Temer—at least
that’s what they’ve shown,

539
00:24:42.910 --> 00:24:44.390
based on his statements.

540
00:24:46.920 --> 00:24:51.030
Just making that statement
that—reaffirming the democratic nature

541
00:24:51.030 --> 00:24:52.370
of this movement,

542
00:24:52.370 --> 00:24:54.450
which is clearly antidemocratic,

543
00:24:54.450 --> 00:24:55.840
that says a lot,

544
00:24:55.840 --> 00:24:59.290
even though it’s done quite
in diplomatic terms.

545
00:24:59.940 --> 00:25:03.440
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Dilma Rousseff’s
suspension is temporary,

546
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:06.870
but some are saying
that it seems all but certain

547
00:25:06.870 --> 00:25:09.650
that she’ll be permanently
removed from office.

548
00:25:09.650 --> 00:25:13.440
Is that correct?
ANDREW FISHMAN: Yeah.

549
00:25:14.020 --> 00:25:16.620
It would take some sort of miracle

550
00:25:16.620 --> 00:25:19.810
or massive change

551
00:25:19.810 --> 00:25:21.770
in the political landscape for her

552
00:25:21.770 --> 00:25:24.550
not to be—for the vote
to not go through.

553
00:25:25.200 --> 00:25:27.400
You need a two-thirds vote in the Senate

554
00:25:27.400 --> 00:25:30.050
for her to be impeached
after the trial.

555
00:25:30.050 --> 00:25:33.200
They already had that number,
and then a few more,

556
00:25:33.200 --> 00:25:36.490
voting for the—this initial vote
the other day.

557
00:25:36.490 --> 00:25:37.720
So, I mean,

558
00:25:37.720 --> 00:25:39.190
unless something massive were to change,

559
00:25:39.190 --> 00:25:40.670
it seems quite clear.

560
00:25:40.670 --> 00:25:42.400
And the—I mean,
the only people

561
00:25:42.400 --> 00:25:45.620
that could really intervene right now
would be the Supreme Court.

562
00:25:45.620 --> 00:25:49.890
They’ve shown that they also
prefer the Temer presidency.

563
00:25:49.890 --> 00:25:51.840
They want this.
They think that Temer

564
00:25:52.530 --> 00:25:53.910
is the quickest path

565
00:25:53.910 --> 00:25:55.590
to resolve the political crisis

566
00:25:56.220 --> 00:25:58.420
and to move forward
from the chaos

567
00:25:58.420 --> 00:25:59.870
that’s currently going on.

568
00:25:59.870 --> 00:26:04.330
And they’ve said—they said
so quite explicitly in some statements

569
00:26:04.330 --> 00:26:05.960
that they’ve given to the press,

570
00:26:05.960 --> 00:26:07.220
which, as an American

571
00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:09.430
coming from the U.S. context,
where at least the Supreme

572
00:26:09.430 --> 00:26:13.480
Court in the United States
tries to maintain the appearance of

573
00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:15.940
impartiality
in maintaining pure

574
00:26:15.940 --> 00:26:19.350
judicial decisions,
in this case they’ve made statements

575
00:26:19.350 --> 00:26:22.540
that show that they’re making
very political calculations

576
00:26:22.540 --> 00:26:25.150
in their decisions,
as has the prosecutor general.

577
00:26:25.830 --> 00:26:27.080
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to ask you,

578
00:26:27.080 --> 00:26:28.630
Andrew, about an article

579
00:26:28.630 --> 00:26:30.670
by Greg Grandin about who’s profiting

580
00:26:30.670 --> 00:26:32.490
from this coup,

581
00:26:32.490 --> 00:26:35.640
as Dilma Rousseff has called it.

582
00:26:35.640 --> 00:26:37.510
Grandin wrote
in The Nation,

583
00:26:38.190 --> 00:26:42.620
a piece that was headlined,
"A Slavers’ Coup in Brazil?:

584
00:26:42.620 --> 00:26:46.440
Among the many groups pushing
for the impeachment of Dilma Rousseff,

585
00:26:46.440 --> 00:26:47.850
one is seldom discussed:

586
00:26:47.850 --> 00:26:49.820
companies that profit from slavery."

587
00:26:49.820 --> 00:26:52.680
In the article, Grandin
notes Rousseff’s Workers’ Party

588
00:26:52.680 --> 00:26:55.140
creates a—created a "dirty list"

589
00:26:55.140 --> 00:26:57.430
of "hundreds of companies
and individual employers

590
00:26:57.430 --> 00:26:59.230
who were investigated
by labor prosecutors

591
00:26:59.230 --> 00:27:00.930
and found to be using slaves."

592
00:27:00.930 --> 00:27:04.370
Grandin goes on to write that one
of the members of the opposition

593
00:27:04.370 --> 00:27:07.310
that’s pushed
for Rousseff’s impeachment directly

594
00:27:07.310 --> 00:27:09.550
profits from slave labor.

595
00:27:09.550 --> 00:27:10.870
According to Grandin,

596
00:27:10.870 --> 00:27:13.340
Congressman Beto Mansur is, quote,

597
00:27:13.340 --> 00:27:14.970
"charged with keeping 46 workers

598
00:27:14.970 --> 00:27:17.440
at his soybean farms in Goiás State

599
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:19.050
in conditions
so deplorable

600
00:27:19.050 --> 00:27:22.500
that investigators say the laborers
were treated like modern-day slaves."

601
00:27:22.500 --> 00:27:24.580
Andrew Fishman, what business interests

602
00:27:24.580 --> 00:27:26.740
have aligned themselves
against Dilma Rousseff?

603
00:27:26.740 --> 00:27:28.360
And what about this congressman?

604
00:27:30.400 --> 00:27:33.280
ANDREW FISHMAN: Yeah,
and going one step further even, I mean,

605
00:27:34.190 --> 00:27:36.150
Greg’s article was
about a week ago,

606
00:27:37.050 --> 00:27:40.450
and just yesterday, President Temer

607
00:27:40.450 --> 00:27:43.450
installed his Cabinet, his ministers.

608
00:27:43.450 --> 00:27:47.060
The agricultural minister
is a massive soybean farmer

609
00:27:47.060 --> 00:27:49.420
who has huge tracts of land,

610
00:27:49.420 --> 00:27:52.030
they’ve—responsible
for massive deforestation,

611
00:27:52.030 --> 00:27:55.310
and he’s been personally
linked to slavery.

612
00:27:55.310 --> 00:27:58.330
His time in Congress,
he actually introduced a bill

613
00:27:58.330 --> 00:28:02.130
to try and limit the definition
of what slavery actually is,

614
00:28:02.130 --> 00:28:05.200
to try and help himself
and his partners

615
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:06.700
and his business interests.

616
00:28:06.700 --> 00:28:09.570
Slavery is a massive problem in Brazil.

617
00:28:09.570 --> 00:28:11.480
Brazil has plenty of social problems.

618
00:28:11.480 --> 00:28:12.740
This, slavery, is obviously one

619
00:28:12.740 --> 00:28:16.080
that should not exist
in the modern world;

620
00:28:16.080 --> 00:28:18.520
however, it clearly does here
and around the world.

621
00:28:19.070 --> 00:28:21.790
If you go out into the interior
of the country,

622
00:28:21.790 --> 00:28:25.010
which is massive tracts of wilderness,

623
00:28:25.010 --> 00:28:26.770
it’s basically wild,
wild West out there.

624
00:28:27.310 --> 00:28:28.700
There’s very little law.

625
00:28:28.700 --> 00:28:31.650
Journalists, activists, anyone
who tries to push back

626
00:28:31.650 --> 00:28:33.910
against these massive
corporate interests,

627
00:28:33.910 --> 00:28:37.680
who have benefited greatly
under the PT government time

628
00:28:37.680 --> 00:28:39.150
in the last 10, 12 years,

629
00:28:40.200 --> 00:28:43.520
they are all—they’re all able
to use this sort of slavery,

630
00:28:43.520 --> 00:28:46.860
because they have no—there’s basically
no rule of law

631
00:28:46.860 --> 00:28:49.020
to stop them from doing so.

632
00:28:49.020 --> 00:28:51.160
So, yeah,
the massive agribusiness

633
00:28:51.160 --> 00:28:54.030
has aligned themselves against Dilma

634
00:28:54.030 --> 00:28:58.250
and have actually said that
they want—wanted her to be impeached,

635
00:28:58.250 --> 00:29:00.740
as has big industrialist groups

636
00:29:01.680 --> 00:29:05.020
and as has the media, which is also
a huge industry here, obviously.

637
00:29:05.020 --> 00:29:08.360
But all these groups benefited greatly

638
00:29:08.360 --> 00:29:13.030
under President Rousseff
and President Lula da Silva.

639
00:29:14.390 --> 00:29:17.940
Just last year, they’ve had hundreds
of millions of reais,

640
00:29:17.940 --> 00:29:21.710
you know, over the time—hundreds
and billions of dollars

641
00:29:21.710 --> 00:29:25.340
in subsidies that have gone
to these groups and these industries,

642
00:29:25.340 --> 00:29:28.000
and they’ve gotten really rich
off of it, much more money

643
00:29:28.000 --> 00:29:30.050
than has gone
to the social distribution programs,

644
00:29:30.050 --> 00:29:31.360
which President Temer has now indicated

645
00:29:31.360 --> 00:29:34.500
that he probably will be
cutting or reducing.

646
00:29:35.830 --> 00:29:37.610
So, it’s an interesting moment.

647
00:29:37.610 --> 00:29:42.840
I think that they never really
were entirely aligned with the PT,

648
00:29:42.840 --> 00:29:46.690
but it was a pact
of political convenience:

649
00:29:46.690 --> 00:29:48.310
They saw a way
to get a deal, a way

650
00:29:48.310 --> 00:29:50.640
to get their interests met.

651
00:29:50.640 --> 00:29:52.260
Now that the economy
has gone down slightly

652
00:29:52.260 --> 00:29:54.100
and her popularity
has gone down dramatically,

653
00:29:54.740 --> 00:29:56.790
it seemed like a good opportunity
for them to push back

654
00:29:56.790 --> 00:29:58.440
with their more conventional allies,

655
00:29:58.440 --> 00:30:00.510
which are the PSDB and the PMDB.

656
00:30:00.510 --> 00:30:02.660
AMY GOODMAN: Andrew Fishman,
thanks for joining us, researcher,

657
00:30:02.660 --> 00:30:05.400
reporter for The Intercept,
has covered Brazil extensively,

658
00:30:05.400 --> 00:30:07.570
along with Glenn Greenwald
and David Miranda,

659
00:30:07.570 --> 00:30:09.760
speaking to us
from Rio de Janeiro, Brazil.

660
00:30:09.760 --> 00:30:12.830
This is Democracy Now!
When we come back, we look at Syria.

661
00:30:44.680 --> 00:30:46.750
Stay

662
00:30:53.310 --> 00:30:54.860
with

663
00:31:14.020 --> 00:31:15.630
us.

664
00:31:24.700 --> 00:31:26.010
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now to Syria,

665
00:31:26.010 --> 00:31:29.700
where renewed violence has erupted
around the embattled city of Aleppo

666
00:31:29.700 --> 00:31:30.950
after a ceasefire

667
00:31:30.950 --> 00:31:34.190
between the Syrian regime
and the opposition expired.

668
00:31:34.190 --> 00:31:37.370
A surge in fighting between rebels
and the Syrian regime

669
00:31:37.370 --> 00:31:40.990
has killed about 300 people there
over the past two weeks.

670
00:31:41.530 --> 00:31:43.480
At least three people
were killed last week

671
00:31:43.480 --> 00:31:45.230
when a maternity hospital

672
00:31:45.230 --> 00:31:48.560
in a government-controlled section
of the city was hit by rocket fire.

673
00:31:49.070 --> 00:31:51.390
Secretary of State John Kerry
said the rockets

674
00:31:51.390 --> 00:31:53.610
appear to have come
from a rebel area.

675
00:31:54.210 --> 00:31:57.440
The hospital attack came
days after the Syrian regime

676
00:31:57.440 --> 00:32:00.190
destroyed a Doctors
Without Borders-backed hospital,

677
00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:03.000
killing at least 14 patients

678
00:32:03.000 --> 00:32:04.610
and three doctors,

679
00:32:04.610 --> 00:32:07.010
including one of the last pediatricians

680
00:32:07.010 --> 00:32:08.930
in rebel-held East Aleppo.

681
00:32:09.560 --> 00:32:11.550
Meanwhile outside Damascus,

682
00:32:11.550 --> 00:32:15.060
Syrian government officials
turned back an aid convoy

683
00:32:15.060 --> 00:32:17.210
carrying the first humanitarian supplies

684
00:32:17.210 --> 00:32:19.410
to the rebel-held town of Darayya

685
00:32:19.410 --> 00:32:21.610
in more than three years.

686
00:32:21.610 --> 00:32:23.730
The Damascus suburb has been under siege

687
00:32:23.730 --> 00:32:26.600
by the Syrian regime since 2012.

688
00:32:27.190 --> 00:32:29.350
Residents who had gathered
to await the aid

689
00:32:29.350 --> 00:32:32.620
faced a shelling attack
blamed on the Syrian government.

690
00:32:32.620 --> 00:32:34.140
Two civilians were killed:

691
00:32:34.140 --> 00:32:35.510
a father and son.

692
00:32:36.150 --> 00:32:38.500
Opening up besieged areas
to aid delivery

693
00:32:38.500 --> 00:32:40.490
has been a key demand
of the opposition

694
00:32:40.490 --> 00:32:42.780
during the latest round of peace talks,

695
00:32:42.780 --> 00:32:46.420
as well as a key demand
of international aid organizations.

696
00:32:46.420 --> 00:32:49.850
Earlier this week, Secretary of State
John Kerry said the United States

697
00:32:49.850 --> 00:32:52.520
and Russia have agreed
to push for the revival

698
00:32:52.520 --> 00:32:55.030
of a nationwide ceasefire in Syria,

699
00:32:55.030 --> 00:32:57.900
amid hopes of restarting
stalled peace talks.

700
00:32:58.410 --> 00:33:01.290
On Thursday, the United Nations
Security Council

701
00:33:01.290 --> 00:33:04.460
expressed outrage
over the ongoing violence,

702
00:33:04.460 --> 00:33:06.670
including recent attacks on hospitals.

703
00:33:07.180 --> 00:33:10.550
Egyptian Representative Amr
Abdellatif Aboulatta,

704
00:33:10.550 --> 00:33:12.550
the council’s president
for this month,

705
00:33:12.550 --> 00:33:13.980
issued the condemnation.

706
00:33:14.970 --> 00:33:16.580
AMR ABDELLATIF ABOULATTA: The members
of the Security Council

707
00:33:16.580 --> 00:33:18.080
expressed outrage

708
00:33:18.080 --> 00:33:20.270
at all recent attacks in Syria

709
00:33:20.840 --> 00:33:24.110
directed against civilians
and civilian objects,

710
00:33:24.110 --> 00:33:26.140
including medical facilities,

711
00:33:26.990 --> 00:33:30.100
as well as all indiscriminate attacks,

712
00:33:30.100 --> 00:33:33.860
and stressed that these actions
may amount to war crimes.

713
00:33:35.250 --> 00:33:37.940
They expressed their deep concern

714
00:33:37.940 --> 00:33:39.950
at violations of the cessation

715
00:33:39.950 --> 00:33:41.520
of hostilities endorsed

716
00:33:41.520 --> 00:33:45.570
by Security Council Resolution 2268.

717
00:33:45.570 --> 00:33:46.830
AMY GOODMAN: According
to a recent report

718
00:33:46.830 --> 00:33:48.830
by the Syrian Center
for Policy Research,

719
00:33:48.830 --> 00:33:51.320
the death toll in
the five-year conflict has reached

720
00:33:51.320 --> 00:33:54.440
close to half a million people,
nearly twice the number

721
00:33:54.440 --> 00:33:56.770
counted by the United Nations
a year and a half

722
00:33:56.770 --> 00:33:58.770
ago, when it stopped keeping track
of the numbers

723
00:33:58.770 --> 00:34:01.020
killed because of
the data’s unreliability.

724
00:34:01.020 --> 00:34:05.170
The ongoing conflict has displaced
about half the prewar population,

725
00:34:05.170 --> 00:34:09.380
with more than 6 million Syrians
displaced inside Syria

726
00:34:09.380 --> 00:34:11.640
and nearly 5 million Syrian refugees

727
00:34:11.640 --> 00:34:13.450
outside Syria’s borders.

728
00:34:13.450 --> 00:34:15.770
But beyond the plight
of refugees and the violence,

729
00:34:15.770 --> 00:34:19.000
there’s another story in Syria
that receives far less attention,

730
00:34:19.000 --> 00:34:21.140
that of Syrians working
at the local level

731
00:34:21.140 --> 00:34:23.940
to survive and organize
in the midst of war

732
00:34:23.940 --> 00:34:25.830
and to keep the revolutionary spirit

733
00:34:25.830 --> 00:34:28.710
of the 2011 Syrian uprising alive.

734
00:34:28.710 --> 00:34:31.460
To talk more about these efforts,
we’re joined by Yasser Munif,

735
00:34:31.460 --> 00:34:35.270
a Syrian scholar who specializes
in grassroots movements in Syria.

736
00:34:35.270 --> 00:34:38.120
He’s made several trips
to Syria in recent years,

737
00:34:38.120 --> 00:34:40.460
most recently in 2015,

738
00:34:40.460 --> 00:34:42.750
when he visited
the Syrian-Turkish border.

739
00:34:42.750 --> 00:34:45.910
He’s a sociology professor
at Emerson College in Boston

740
00:34:45.910 --> 00:34:48.010
and a co-founder
of the Campaign

741
00:34:48.010 --> 00:34:51.080
for Global Solidarity
with the Syrian Revolution.

742
00:34:51.080 --> 00:34:54.290
Professor Yasser Munif,
welcome to Democracy Now!

743
00:34:54.290 --> 00:34:57.520
Can you talk about
what’s happening right now in Syria?

744
00:34:59.070 --> 00:35:03.250
YASSER MUNIF: So, there are a number
of different things happening,

745
00:35:03.250 --> 00:35:04.900
and there is—the spirit
of the revolution

746
00:35:04.900 --> 00:35:07.300
is still there in Syria.

747
00:35:07.300 --> 00:35:09.240
Most recently,
with the ceasefire

748
00:35:09.240 --> 00:35:12.230
that happened last month

749
00:35:12.230 --> 00:35:14.080
between the Russian and the U.S.,

750
00:35:14.080 --> 00:35:15.740
and imposed on the Syrian regime

751
00:35:15.740 --> 00:35:16.940
and the opposition,

752
00:35:16.940 --> 00:35:20.980
there were massive protests
in the liberated areas,

753
00:35:20.980 --> 00:35:22.840
in the Idlib and Aleppo areas,

754
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:25.970
and they were demanding the fall
of the Syrian regime,

755
00:35:25.970 --> 00:35:28.290
and they were chanting
for the revolution

756
00:35:28.290 --> 00:35:29.980
of dignity and freedom

757
00:35:29.980 --> 00:35:33.060
and for democracy and so on.

758
00:35:33.060 --> 00:35:35.030
And what’s interesting during, you know,

759
00:35:35.030 --> 00:35:38.990
those protests was that they were also
protesting against al-Nusra.

760
00:35:38.990 --> 00:35:44.230
In those regions, there is
a powerful presence of al-Nusra.

761
00:35:44.230 --> 00:35:47.560
And they were demanding
the release of the prisoners

762
00:35:47.560 --> 00:35:50.390
that were held in al-Nusra prisons.

763
00:35:50.390 --> 00:35:53.670
And al-Nusra was trying
to crush those protests.

764
00:35:53.670 --> 00:35:56.400
And they were happening
for days and days,

765
00:35:56.400 --> 00:35:57.810
almost a month.

766
00:35:57.810 --> 00:35:59.500
And what happened in the end

767
00:35:59.500 --> 00:36:02.940
was that the Syrian regime
bombed those cities.

768
00:36:04.190 --> 00:36:07.120
For example, Kafr Nabl
and another city,

769
00:36:07.120 --> 00:36:08.810
it bombed the market there,

770
00:36:08.810 --> 00:36:12.510
and it killed 40 in one city
and 10 in another city.

771
00:36:12.510 --> 00:36:14.020
And the message
was very clear:

772
00:36:14.020 --> 00:36:17.420
The Syrian regime
fears very much

773
00:36:17.420 --> 00:36:21.150
that type of peaceful protest,
revolutionary spirit,

774
00:36:21.150 --> 00:36:23.020
and it wanted to crush it,

775
00:36:23.020 --> 00:36:26.240
despite its opposition
to both sides, the Syrian regime

776
00:36:26.240 --> 00:36:28.140
and the jihadists in al-Nusra.

777
00:36:28.840 --> 00:36:31.370
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Yasser Munif,
you’ve spent several months

778
00:36:31.370 --> 00:36:33.490
in Syria since 2011.

779
00:36:33.490 --> 00:36:36.600
So could you tell us
where you were in Syria,

780
00:36:36.600 --> 00:36:39.330
and also talk about some
of the local groups

781
00:36:39.330 --> 00:36:41.820
you met there and how they’re organizing

782
00:36:41.820 --> 00:36:43.680
in the midst of this brutal war?

783
00:36:45.500 --> 00:36:48.180
YASSER MUNIF: I’ve been several times
to Syria since 2011.

784
00:36:48.180 --> 00:36:50.830
I’ve been to the suburbs of Damascus,

785
00:36:50.830 --> 00:36:53.490
but also to the liberated areas

786
00:36:53.490 --> 00:36:55.320
in northern Syria,

787
00:36:55.320 --> 00:36:57.590
in Aleppo, Raqqa
and mostly Manbij,

788
00:36:57.590 --> 00:37:01.110
which is in the suburbs of Aleppo.

789
00:37:02.160 --> 00:37:06.000
And I spent several months there
in 2013 and 2014,

790
00:37:06.000 --> 00:37:07.510
trying to see
what’s happening

791
00:37:07.510 --> 00:37:09.040
and what people are doing.

792
00:37:09.040 --> 00:37:13.140
And what I’ve seen
was really impressive,

793
00:37:13.140 --> 00:37:14.600
the kind
of politics

794
00:37:14.600 --> 00:37:18.000
that people were reinventing
and the kind of democracy

795
00:37:18.000 --> 00:37:21.180
that they were trying
to build from the ground up

796
00:37:21.180 --> 00:37:23.020
and the institutions

797
00:37:23.020 --> 00:37:26.670
that they were trying to create
to make their cities

798
00:37:26.670 --> 00:37:28.650
and their villages livable.

799
00:37:28.650 --> 00:37:30.260
And all that was taking place

800
00:37:30.260 --> 00:37:33.260
in a very challenging environment,

801
00:37:33.260 --> 00:37:36.310
with the violence
of the Syrian regime

802
00:37:36.310 --> 00:37:39.130
and the incremental
and gradual presence

803
00:37:39.130 --> 00:37:42.390
of the jihadists back
then in 2013 and 2014.

804
00:37:43.020 --> 00:37:46.740
And yet, people were experimenting
with new ideas,

805
00:37:46.740 --> 00:37:49.240
trying to create a new culture

806
00:37:49.240 --> 00:37:51.350
of resistance and dignity,

807
00:37:51.350 --> 00:37:56.040
and tried to also
provide the basic needs

808
00:37:56.040 --> 00:37:57.370
for the population,

809
00:37:57.370 --> 00:37:58.740
without any kind of funding,

810
00:37:58.740 --> 00:38:00.990
without any kind of support and so on.

811
00:38:00.990 --> 00:38:04.130
And that’s the dimension
of the Syrian conflict

812
00:38:04.130 --> 00:38:08.690
that is basically invisible
or hidden for most

813
00:38:08.690 --> 00:38:10.460
in the West and beyond.

814
00:38:10.460 --> 00:38:12.450
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about,
Yasser Munif,

815
00:38:12.450 --> 00:38:15.350
where ISIS fits into this story?

816
00:38:16.880 --> 00:38:21.090
YASSER MUNIF: So, ISIS, obviously,
has different histories and genealogies.

817
00:38:21.720 --> 00:38:24.960
Obviously, we can’t understand
the emergence of ISIS in Syria

818
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:28.370
without going back
to the history of the U.S.

819
00:38:28.370 --> 00:38:30.400
and Saudi Arabia in Afghanistan,

820
00:38:30.400 --> 00:38:32.660
and more recently in Iraq,

821
00:38:32.660 --> 00:38:38.060
and the push for that kind
of radicalization.

822
00:38:38.060 --> 00:38:40.430
We should also understand
that the Syrian regime

823
00:38:40.430 --> 00:38:43.700
fears very much
the grassroots, civilian,

824
00:38:43.700 --> 00:38:45.260
peaceful resistance

825
00:38:45.260 --> 00:38:47.610
that was happening back in 2011.

826
00:38:47.610 --> 00:38:49.680
And what it did was the release

827
00:38:49.680 --> 00:38:51.620
of many jihadists

828
00:38:51.620 --> 00:38:54.950
in 2011 and 2012,
thousands of them,

829
00:38:54.950 --> 00:38:59.040
many of whom became leaders
in the main military jihadist groups,

830
00:38:59.040 --> 00:39:05.140
including Ahrar ash-Sham,
Jaysh al-Islam, al-Nusra and ISIS.

831
00:39:05.140 --> 00:39:08.630
And also, the chemical attacks, the way

832
00:39:08.630 --> 00:39:11.480
that the entire world responded
to the chemical attacks

833
00:39:11.480 --> 00:39:14.070
and what people
saw with the chemical attacks

834
00:39:14.070 --> 00:39:16.130
radicalized part of the population.

835
00:39:16.130 --> 00:39:21.880
And some people basically went
and started fighting with ISIS.

836
00:39:21.880 --> 00:39:24.150
Combined to a culture

837
00:39:24.150 --> 00:39:26.040
of racism in Europe,

838
00:39:26.040 --> 00:39:29.300
which is also pushing part
of the Muslim population,

839
00:39:29.300 --> 00:39:33.390
and also non-Muslim population—there are
some Jews and some Christians

840
00:39:33.390 --> 00:39:37.040
who convert to Islam
and go fight in Iraq and Syria.

841
00:39:37.040 --> 00:39:39.880
And so, it’s a combination
of all these forces,

842
00:39:39.880 --> 00:39:42.130
including Saudi Arabia and Turkey,

843
00:39:42.130 --> 00:39:46.260
who are also funding and backing ISIS

844
00:39:46.260 --> 00:39:48.290
for very narrow interests

845
00:39:48.290 --> 00:39:51.140
that are basically
against the Syrian revolution.

846
00:39:51.140 --> 00:39:54.960
So I think it’s important
to understand the emergence

847
00:39:54.960 --> 00:39:56.330
and the hegemony

848
00:39:56.330 --> 00:39:59.830
of ISIS in those different dimensions.

849
00:39:59.830 --> 00:40:03.510
It’s not simply a creation
by the jihadists

850
00:40:03.510 --> 00:40:06.950
and the Salafi currents

851
00:40:06.950 --> 00:40:08.740
or discourses in Syria.

852
00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:13.310
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Yasser Munif,
you’ve just spoken of the xenophobia

853
00:40:13.310 --> 00:40:14.510
in Europe

854
00:40:14.510 --> 00:40:18.130
that has also led people
from there to join ISIS.

855
00:40:18.130 --> 00:40:21.990
And I want to go to what presumptive
Republican presidential nominee

856
00:40:21.990 --> 00:40:24.020
here in the U.S., Donald Trump,

857
00:40:24.020 --> 00:40:27.110
said about Syrian refugees
coming to the U.S.

858
00:40:27.110 --> 00:40:29.690
He was speaking Saturday
in Washington state.

859
00:40:30.340 --> 00:40:34.130
DONALD TRUMP: We should build
safe zones for Syrians.

860
00:40:34.130 --> 00:40:36.650
But we can’t bring them
to Washington state.

861
00:40:36.650 --> 00:40:38.720
And you don’t even know
where they’re going.

862
00:40:38.720 --> 00:40:40.610
You know, you saw
what happened in Paris.

863
00:40:40.610 --> 00:40:42.870
You saw what happened
at the World Trade Center.

864
00:40:42.870 --> 00:40:45.860
You saw what happened in California
with the 14 people

865
00:40:45.860 --> 00:40:47.530
that they worked with—shot, killed,

866
00:40:47.530 --> 00:40:49.000
many people in the hospital,

867
00:40:49.000 --> 00:40:50.880
right now, many, many people
in the hospital.

868
00:40:51.410 --> 00:40:54.150
These are people
that nobody knows who they are,

869
00:40:55.100 --> 00:40:56.760
and they’re going
to be in your community.

870
00:40:57.410 --> 00:40:58.910
You can’t do it.

871
00:40:58.910 --> 00:41:02.280
AMY GOODMAN: That was
Donald Trump speaking on Saturday.

872
00:41:02.280 --> 00:41:04.680
Yasser Munif, your response
to what he said?

873
00:41:06.080 --> 00:41:09.170
YASSER MUNIF: So, again, we can’t really
understand the Syrian revolution

874
00:41:09.170 --> 00:41:10.530
or the Syrian conflict

875
00:41:10.530 --> 00:41:13.430
without understanding it
in a more global

876
00:41:13.430 --> 00:41:14.710
and regional context.

877
00:41:14.710 --> 00:41:17.810
And that global context is one

878
00:41:17.810 --> 00:41:20.470
where there is a major economic crisis,

879
00:41:20.470 --> 00:41:23.860
high unemployment rates
in Europe and beyond,

880
00:41:23.860 --> 00:41:25.490
creating resentments

881
00:41:25.490 --> 00:41:27.720
among white working classes

882
00:41:27.720 --> 00:41:31.160
and the marginalization, demonization,

883
00:41:31.160 --> 00:41:33.310
vilification of Muslims in Europe

884
00:41:33.310 --> 00:41:35.020
and beyond.

885
00:41:35.020 --> 00:41:38.460
And that’s also creating alienation
among the Muslim population,

886
00:41:38.460 --> 00:41:40.090
that is reacting,

887
00:41:40.090 --> 00:41:43.020
part of it—we have to also point

888
00:41:43.020 --> 00:41:45.990
that this is really a small segment
of the Muslim population,

889
00:41:45.990 --> 00:41:47.440
which is marginalized,

890
00:41:47.440 --> 00:41:50.250
and part of it think that going to Syria

891
00:41:50.250 --> 00:41:53.430
and fighting in Syria
is a form of salvation,

892
00:41:53.430 --> 00:41:55.160
that Syria is heaven

893
00:41:55.160 --> 00:42:00.130
and that they could build
what is referred to as the caliphate.

894
00:42:00.130 --> 00:42:01.940
And so, there is an environment

895
00:42:01.940 --> 00:42:06.400
of xenophobia that is very
much—has a representation in Syria.

896
00:42:06.400 --> 00:42:09.840
For example, the far right
also backs the Syrian regime.

897
00:42:09.840 --> 00:42:13.120
For example, David Duke
and Alex Jones here

898
00:42:13.120 --> 00:42:15.590
in the U.S.
or the BNP in the U.K.

899
00:42:15.590 --> 00:42:18.070
or the Le Pen National Front

900
00:42:18.070 --> 00:42:22.330
in France or even the white supremacists

901
00:42:22.330 --> 00:42:24.350
in Greece have backed the Syrian regime.

902
00:42:24.350 --> 00:42:29.150
And for some of them, they sent people
to fight along with the Syrian troops,

903
00:42:29.150 --> 00:42:31.230
thinking that this is
a war against Muslims

904
00:42:31.230 --> 00:42:32.900
and against jihadists and so on.

905
00:42:32.900 --> 00:42:36.630
So, the Syrian
conflict has many dimensions.

906
00:42:36.630 --> 00:42:37.980
And this is one of them.

907
00:42:38.570 --> 00:42:41.060
It’s also referred to
as a civil war.

908
00:42:41.060 --> 00:42:44.190
It’s referred to
as a sectarian conflict,

909
00:42:44.190 --> 00:42:46.510
as a proxy war, foreign intervention.

910
00:42:46.510 --> 00:42:47.890
But in all these narratives,

911
00:42:47.890 --> 00:42:50.360
what is really missing
is the Syrian revolution.

912
00:42:50.360 --> 00:42:53.710
And for the most part,
it’s been absent in any kind

913
00:42:53.710 --> 00:42:54.950
of discussion or talk

914
00:42:54.950 --> 00:42:59.430
about the Syrian revolution
or the Syrian conflict.

915
00:42:59.430 --> 00:43:02.850
And I think the left,
the global left,

916
00:43:02.850 --> 00:43:05.700
has played a major role in that
by dismissing

917
00:43:05.700 --> 00:43:07.390
what the Syrian people are doing,

918
00:43:07.390 --> 00:43:10.220
for a number
of different reasons, in part

919
00:43:10.220 --> 00:43:14.040
because the Syrian regime
imposed a media blackout

920
00:43:14.040 --> 00:43:15.680
and prevented journalists
from going there.

921
00:43:15.680 --> 00:43:17.970
So there is very little reports

922
00:43:17.970 --> 00:43:19.540
from the ground
that are in English

923
00:43:19.540 --> 00:43:22.010
and that people
in the left

924
00:43:22.010 --> 00:43:24.330
and the progressive circles in the West

925
00:43:24.330 --> 00:43:26.030
and beyond understand.

926
00:43:26.030 --> 00:43:27.410
And for some people,

927
00:43:27.410 --> 00:43:31.430
they think that the Syrian regime
is anti-imperialist, pro-Palestine,

928
00:43:31.430 --> 00:43:35.380
it’s allied to Iran and so on,

929
00:43:35.380 --> 00:43:38.700
and they have to side
with the lesser evil,

930
00:43:38.700 --> 00:43:41.150
the lesser evil being
the Syrian regime.

931
00:43:41.150 --> 00:43:44.300
For example, the—Seymour Hersh,

932
00:43:44.300 --> 00:43:45.600
as one example,

933
00:43:45.600 --> 00:43:47.770
has written four or five
different narratives

934
00:43:47.770 --> 00:43:49.550
about the chemical attacks

935
00:43:49.550 --> 00:43:54.300
without ever
really interviewing journalists

936
00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:56.060
or activists
on the ground.

937
00:43:56.060 --> 00:43:58.640
And those narratives
are really conflicting.

938
00:43:58.640 --> 00:44:02.100
For example, Robert Fisk,
another journalist,

939
00:44:02.100 --> 00:44:05.300
who was very much
against embedded journalism in Iraq,

940
00:44:05.300 --> 00:44:07.840
does only embedded journalism in Syria

941
00:44:07.840 --> 00:44:10.290
and has interviewed prisoners

942
00:44:10.290 --> 00:44:13.020
in torture chambers in Syria.

943
00:44:13.020 --> 00:44:15.650
Tariq Ali suggested
that the only way

944
00:44:15.650 --> 00:44:18.850
to defeat ISIS is to side
and back the Syrian regime.

945
00:44:18.850 --> 00:44:21.690
Some antiwar activists
here in the U.S.

946
00:44:21.690 --> 00:44:23.170
and in Europe

947
00:44:23.170 --> 00:44:26.580
brought pictures of Assad
in their demonstrations

948
00:44:26.580 --> 00:44:28.510
against foreign intervention.

949
00:44:29.210 --> 00:44:31.440
In many cases,
leftists and progressives

950
00:44:31.440 --> 00:44:35.100
have organized conferences
and panels about Syria,

951
00:44:35.100 --> 00:44:38.390
and oftentimes
the Syrian voice was missing.

952
00:44:38.390 --> 00:44:41.440
And so, this has made the understanding

953
00:44:41.440 --> 00:44:44.160
of the Syrian revolution
very much difficult,

954
00:44:44.160 --> 00:44:47.680
and marginalized and alienated part
of the Syrian population,

955
00:44:47.680 --> 00:44:50.830
who think that leftists
are against the revolution,

956
00:44:50.830 --> 00:44:53.250
that people don’t understand
what is happening,

957
00:44:53.250 --> 00:44:56.940
that they are only perceived
as Muslims and jihadists.

958
00:44:56.940 --> 00:44:58.850
And this revolutionary dimension

959
00:44:58.850 --> 00:45:01.990
is completely dismissed
in those discourses.

960
00:45:01.990 --> 00:45:03.460
AMY GOODMAN: I want to go
to one of the journalists

961
00:45:03.460 --> 00:45:05.100
you just talked about, Seymour Hersh.

962
00:45:05.100 --> 00:45:06.850
Last month, I interviewed him,

963
00:45:06.850 --> 00:45:09.090
and he talked
about Russia’s role in Syria.

964
00:45:09.670 --> 00:45:13.750
SEYMOUR HERSH: Russian special forces
are in the fight against ISIS

965
00:45:13.750 --> 00:45:15.720
with the Syrian army, with Hezbollah,

966
00:45:15.720 --> 00:45:17.690
with the Iranian army,

967
00:45:17.690 --> 00:45:18.710
the Quds Force.

968
00:45:19.460 --> 00:45:22.160
And the Russians have done an awful lot
to improve the Syrian army

969
00:45:22.160 --> 00:45:26.110
in the past year—retrained them,
reoutfitted them, etc., etc., etc.

970
00:45:26.110 --> 00:45:28.860
It’s a much better army
since the Russians came in.

971
00:45:28.860 --> 00:45:31.390
AMY GOODMAN: Yasser Munif,
your response to Seymour Hersh?

972
00:45:31.970 --> 00:45:35.610
YASSER MUNIF: So, Russia is a force
of occupation in Syria.

973
00:45:35.610 --> 00:45:39.510
Like many others who are intervening
in Syria—the U.S., Turkey,

974
00:45:39.510 --> 00:45:40.770
Saudi Arabia,

975
00:45:40.770 --> 00:45:44.870
Iran—the Russians are playing
a very detrimental role.

976
00:45:44.870 --> 00:45:46.320
So, for example,

977
00:45:46.320 --> 00:45:49.010
in the recent intervention
and the airstrikes

978
00:45:49.010 --> 00:45:53.410
that they have been conducting
since a number of months

979
00:45:53.410 --> 00:45:57.430
now, more than 50 percent of the people
who were killed are civilian.

980
00:45:57.430 --> 00:46:03.460
The Russian airplanes
have also bombed bakeries.

981
00:46:03.460 --> 00:46:05.540
And that’s a strategies—one

982
00:46:05.540 --> 00:46:07.470
of the strategies
of the Syrian regime,

983
00:46:07.470 --> 00:46:10.240
basically propagating

984
00:46:10.240 --> 00:46:13.620
and imposing their politics
of despair on the Syrians

985
00:46:13.620 --> 00:46:15.500
who live in those liberated areas

986
00:46:15.500 --> 00:46:17.170
or besieged areas.

987
00:46:17.170 --> 00:46:20.870
And most people
despise and really reject

988
00:46:20.870 --> 00:46:24.210
that Russian presence or colonization

989
00:46:24.210 --> 00:46:29.620
that has—that the Syrian regime
has imposed on them.

990
00:46:29.620 --> 00:46:34.310
Most recently, the Russians have also
organized trips for journalists.

991
00:46:34.310 --> 00:46:36.180
And more than a hundred journalists

992
00:46:36.180 --> 00:46:38.660
visited military camps

993
00:46:38.660 --> 00:46:40.220
and military bases,

994
00:46:40.220 --> 00:46:42.430
Russian bases in Syria,

995
00:46:43.000 --> 00:46:46.090
and celebrating the Russian presence,

996
00:46:46.090 --> 00:46:49.340
which is very detrimental
for the Syrian.

997
00:46:49.340 --> 00:46:52.300
And it’s basically
making the continuation

998
00:46:52.300 --> 00:46:53.710
of the conflict possible.

999
00:46:53.710 --> 00:46:55.480
It’s backing the Syrian regime

1000
00:46:55.480 --> 00:46:57.000
and its violence

1001
00:46:57.000 --> 00:46:58.850
and its vicious war.

1002
00:46:58.850 --> 00:47:02.600
So I very much oppose what Seymour Hersh

1003
00:47:02.600 --> 00:47:04.600
is trying to do and represents.

1004
00:47:05.150 --> 00:47:07.220
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Yasser Munif,
just before we conclude,

1005
00:47:07.220 --> 00:47:10.590
I think one of the issues
that we have here is a lot

1006
00:47:10.590 --> 00:47:15.030
of confusion about who constitutes
the Syrian opposition today.

1007
00:47:15.030 --> 00:47:18.960
There seems to be a conflation
of the opposition now

1008
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:23.310
with groups like al-Nusra,
al-Qaeda, ISIS, etc.

1009
00:47:23.310 --> 00:47:27.440
So could you tell us how you would
characterize the opposition now?

1010
00:47:28.950 --> 00:47:32.920
YASSER MUNIF: So we have to understand
that the al-Nusra and ISIS

1011
00:47:32.920 --> 00:47:36.850
and other jihadist groups are part
of a counterrevolution.

1012
00:47:36.850 --> 00:47:40.610
There are a number
of different—or the counterrevolution

1013
00:47:40.610 --> 00:47:44.320
have different dimensions, one
of which is those jihadist groups.

1014
00:47:44.830 --> 00:47:47.340
Obviously, there is
the foreign intervention

1015
00:47:47.340 --> 00:47:50.340
in its different dimensions,

1016
00:47:50.340 --> 00:47:52.880
whether it’s Russian, Iranian

1017
00:47:52.880 --> 00:47:54.900
or American
and European

1018
00:47:54.900 --> 00:47:56.810
and so on, or Saudi and Turkish.

1019
00:47:57.530 --> 00:47:59.300
And there is also, obviously,

1020
00:47:59.300 --> 00:48:01.280
the Syrian regime.

1021
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:04.090
But for the most part,
most of the people

1022
00:48:04.090 --> 00:48:06.340
who look at the Syrian revolt

1023
00:48:06.340 --> 00:48:09.670
or the Syrian conflict
think that the Syrian opposition,

1024
00:48:09.670 --> 00:48:11.260
the official Syrian opposition,

1025
00:48:11.260 --> 00:48:14.470
represent the entire
revolutionary aspect

1026
00:48:14.470 --> 00:48:17.220
or the Syrian opposition to Assad,

1027
00:48:17.220 --> 00:48:19.040
which is far from truth.

1028
00:48:19.040 --> 00:48:22.590
The official opposition
represent a minority.

1029
00:48:22.590 --> 00:48:25.340
Most people despise
that Syrian opposition.

1030
00:48:25.340 --> 00:48:28.250
And many of the activists,
many of the revolutionaries

1031
00:48:28.250 --> 00:48:30.450
who are on the ground,
who continue the revolution,

1032
00:48:30.450 --> 00:48:32.490
who are creating that

1033
00:48:32.490 --> 00:48:36.990
and continuing that politics
of dignity and freedom,

1034
00:48:37.700 --> 00:48:41.960
don’t recognize themselves
as part of that opposition.

1035
00:48:41.960 --> 00:48:45.080
They are, for the most part,
unaffiliated.

1036
00:48:45.080 --> 00:48:48.250
But the type of work
that they are doing is tremendous.

1037
00:48:48.250 --> 00:48:50.290
They are media activists,
they are journalists,

1038
00:48:50.290 --> 00:48:52.490
they are the medical crews,

1039
00:48:52.490 --> 00:48:56.090
and they are the rescue workers.

1040
00:48:56.090 --> 00:48:58.210
And they don’t perceive
the kind of work

1041
00:48:58.210 --> 00:49:01.170
they’re doing as part
of humanitarian or relief work.

1042
00:49:02.120 --> 00:49:04.930
They perceive it as, you know,
the backbone of the revolution.

1043
00:49:04.930 --> 00:49:07.090
And that’s, again,
part of the confusion.

1044
00:49:07.090 --> 00:49:10.290
And this is why I think
that the revolution is still alive.

1045
00:49:10.290 --> 00:49:11.920
It may be marginal,

1046
00:49:11.920 --> 00:49:13.920
but if there is a ceasefire,

1047
00:49:13.920 --> 00:49:17.240
as we have seen in the past month,
it can come back.

1048
00:49:17.240 --> 00:49:20.020
And it’s still present very much,

1049
00:49:20.020 --> 00:49:23.080
but very much invisible and,

1050
00:49:23.080 --> 00:49:25.210
for some, unthinkable.

1051
00:49:25.870 --> 00:49:27.860
AMY GOODMAN: Yasser Munif,
I want to thank you for being with us,

1052
00:49:27.860 --> 00:49:31.690
Syrian scholar who specializes
in grassroots movements in Syria.

1053
00:49:32.570 --> 00:49:34.510
Thank you so much
for being with us.

1054
00:49:34.510 --> 00:49:37.440
Yasser Munif teaches at Emerson College

1055
00:49:37.440 --> 00:49:38.990
in Boston.
This is Democracy Now!

1056
00:49:38.990 --> 00:49:42.480
When we come back, we go inside a prison
where there’s been a work strike

1057
00:49:42.480 --> 00:49:45.030
for the last 10 days.
We go to Alabama.

1058
00:49:45.030 --> 00:49:46.280
Stay with

1059
00:49:47.270 --> 00:50:34.240
us.

1060
00:50:45.930 --> 00:50:47.840
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We end today’s show
in Alabama,

1061
00:50:47.840 --> 00:50:51.490
where men at several prisons
have ended a 10-day strike

1062
00:50:51.490 --> 00:50:54.800
over unpaid labor
and poor prison conditions.

1063
00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:57.730
Their coordinated strike
kicked off on May 1st,

1064
00:50:57.730 --> 00:50:59.310
International Workers’ Day,

1065
00:50:59.310 --> 00:51:02.830
when prisoners at the Holman
and Elmore Correctional Facilities

1066
00:51:02.830 --> 00:51:06.730
refused to report
to their prison jobs—and later expanded

1067
00:51:06.730 --> 00:51:08.320
to three other prisons.

1068
00:51:08.320 --> 00:51:10.820
The strike focused on
severe overcrowding,

1069
00:51:10.820 --> 00:51:12.660
poor living conditions

1070
00:51:12.660 --> 00:51:15.570
and the 13th Amendment
of the U.S. Constitution,

1071
00:51:15.570 --> 00:51:18.340
which bans slavery
and servitude, quote,

1072
00:51:18.340 --> 00:51:23.230
"except as a punishment for crime," thus
sanctioning the legality of forced,

1073
00:51:23.230 --> 00:51:24.660
unpaid prison labor.

1074
00:51:25.220 --> 00:51:29.000
Alabama operates the country’s
most crowded prison system,

1075
00:51:29.000 --> 00:51:31.440
holding nearly twice as many people

1076
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:33.060
as it’s designed to contain.

1077
00:51:35.310 --> 00:51:37.580
AMY GOODMAN: Organizers
with the Free Alabama Movement

1078
00:51:37.580 --> 00:51:39.990
say—a network
of prison activists—officials

1079
00:51:39.990 --> 00:51:41.960
retaliated against prisoners

1080
00:51:41.960 --> 00:51:44.150
who participated
in the work stoppage

1081
00:51:44.150 --> 00:51:45.720
by leaving dorms
in filth,

1082
00:51:45.720 --> 00:51:47.620
not taking out trash, leaving showers

1083
00:51:47.620 --> 00:51:49.240
and soiled laundry unclean.

1084
00:51:49.240 --> 00:51:53.610
Organizers also say officials
punished them by serving meals

1085
00:51:53.610 --> 00:51:56.860
that are significantly smaller
than usual, a practice

1086
00:51:56.860 --> 00:51:58.950
they’ve referred to as "bird feeding."

1087
00:51:59.540 --> 00:52:03.290
Prison officials also responded
by putting the facilities on lockdown,

1088
00:52:03.290 --> 00:52:07.220
partially to allow guards to perform
jobs normally carried out by prisoners.

1089
00:52:07.220 --> 00:52:12.570
For more, we go directly inside the bars
to Kinetik Justice.

1090
00:52:12.570 --> 00:52:14.280
He joins us by phone

1091
00:52:14.280 --> 00:52:17.930
from solitary confinement
in Holman Correctional Facility,

1092
00:52:17.930 --> 00:52:19.630
co-founder of the Free Alabama Movement,

1093
00:52:19.630 --> 00:52:21.070
one of the organizers of the strike,

1094
00:52:21.070 --> 00:52:23.980
currently serving his 28th
month in solitary

1095
00:52:23.980 --> 00:52:26.990
for organizing a similar action in 2014.

1096
00:52:26.990 --> 00:52:29.000
Welcome to Democracy Now!, Kinetik.

1097
00:52:29.710 --> 00:52:32.080
You are in solitary confinement.

1098
00:52:32.960 --> 00:52:34.740
Can you talk about this strike

1099
00:52:34.740 --> 00:52:38.000
that you helped organize, from May 1st,

1100
00:52:38.000 --> 00:52:39.850
and why you engaged in it,

1101
00:52:39.850 --> 00:52:41.640
and what’s happened as a result?

1102
00:52:41.640 --> 00:52:42.890
KINETIC JUSTICE: Yes.

1103
00:52:43.440 --> 00:52:44.690
Good morning, good morning.

1104
00:52:46.080 --> 00:52:50.980
These strikes are our method
for challenging mass incarceration.

1105
00:52:51.660 --> 00:52:53.830
As we understand it,
the prison system

1106
00:52:53.830 --> 00:52:57.090
is a continuation
of the slave system,

1107
00:52:57.090 --> 00:53:00.090
and which in all entities
is an economical system.

1108
00:53:00.780 --> 00:53:03.190
Therefore, for the reform and changes

1109
00:53:03.190 --> 00:53:05.680
that we’ve been fighting for in Alabama,

1110
00:53:05.680 --> 00:53:07.890
we’ve tried petitioning
through the courts.

1111
00:53:07.890 --> 00:53:10.950
We’ve tried to get in touch

1112
00:53:10.950 --> 00:53:13.210
with our legislators and so forth.

1113
00:53:13.210 --> 00:53:15.260
And we haven’t had any recourse.

1114
00:53:15.840 --> 00:53:19.740
Therefore, we understood
that our incarceration was pretty much

1115
00:53:19.740 --> 00:53:21.370
about our labor and the money

1116
00:53:21.370 --> 00:53:23.940
that was being generated
through the prison system,

1117
00:53:23.940 --> 00:53:27.360
therefore we began organizing
around our labor

1118
00:53:27.360 --> 00:53:28.960
and used it as a means

1119
00:53:28.960 --> 00:53:31.130
and a method in order
to bring about reform

1120
00:53:31.130 --> 00:53:33.870
in the Alabama prison system.

1121
00:53:33.870 --> 00:53:36.960
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Kinetik Justice,
could you talk about the new legislation

1122
00:53:36.960 --> 00:53:39.630
that went into effect
in Alabama in February,

1123
00:53:39.630 --> 00:53:42.140
Senate Bill 67?

1124
00:53:42.140 --> 00:53:45.730
What is that supposed
to do for the conditions

1125
00:53:45.730 --> 00:53:47.300
in these prisons in Alabama?

1126
00:53:48.950 --> 00:53:52.290
KINETIC JUSTICE: Actually,
Senate Bill 67 is a means

1127
00:53:52.290 --> 00:53:56.570
to try to address overcrowding
in a piecemeal fashion.

1128
00:53:56.570 --> 00:53:58.670
They did a lot of legislation

1129
00:53:58.670 --> 00:54:00.830
that helps on
the front end

1130
00:54:00.830 --> 00:54:03.480
of those coming
into the prison system now,

1131
00:54:03.480 --> 00:54:04.870
but does nothing for those

1132
00:54:04.870 --> 00:54:07.630
who have been backlogged
in the prison system for decades.

1133
00:54:09.460 --> 00:54:12.540
AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk
about how it is, Kinetik Justice,

1134
00:54:12.540 --> 00:54:14.850
that you are speaking to us

1135
00:54:14.850 --> 00:54:19.330
from inside solitary confinement, sort

1136
00:54:19.330 --> 00:54:21.920
of redefining "cellphone"?

1137
00:54:25.350 --> 00:54:26.800
KINETIC JUSTICE: Actually,
we are engaged

1138
00:54:26.800 --> 00:54:28.490
in a struggle
for our life,

1139
00:54:28.490 --> 00:54:29.730
a freedom struggle,

1140
00:54:29.730 --> 00:54:31.880
with the conditions and so forth.

1141
00:54:31.880 --> 00:54:34.560
And in all means,
a war, you know, warfare,

1142
00:54:34.560 --> 00:54:37.060
you use what tools are available to you.

1143
00:54:37.060 --> 00:54:39.550
And in this struggle for freedom,
justice and equality,

1144
00:54:39.550 --> 00:54:40.940
we’re doing just that.

1145
00:54:40.940 --> 00:54:43.920
We’re using every tool available to us

1146
00:54:43.920 --> 00:54:45.620
to get the maximized effect.

1147
00:54:46.590 --> 00:54:50.060
AMY GOODMAN: And can you explain
what bird feeding is

1148
00:54:50.060 --> 00:54:52.710
and the retaliation you feel

1149
00:54:52.710 --> 00:54:56.360
that the prisoners face
for engaging in this mass protest?

1150
00:54:56.980 --> 00:55:00.010
KINETIC JUSTICE: Yes, well,
nutrition-wise,

1151
00:55:00.010 --> 00:55:01.870
by the dietary requirements,

1152
00:55:02.430 --> 00:55:05.110
each meal is supposed
to be in regards

1153
00:55:05.110 --> 00:55:07.760
to 1,800 to 2,200 calories.

1154
00:55:07.760 --> 00:55:09.620
For the last 10 days,

1155
00:55:09.620 --> 00:55:13.900
we have been receiving
well below a thousand calories per meal.

1156
00:55:15.530 --> 00:55:17.770
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Kinetik Justice,

1157
00:55:17.770 --> 00:55:20.210
you have talked about—we’ve talked
a little bit

1158
00:55:20.210 --> 00:55:21.830
about the prisoners’ demands,

1159
00:55:21.830 --> 00:55:23.930
but you have some of your own.

1160
00:55:23.930 --> 00:55:25.940
What do you want to happen?

1161
00:55:28.050 --> 00:55:31.130
KINETIC JUSTICE: Basically,
I want an overhaul

1162
00:55:31.130 --> 00:55:34.930
of the Alabama prison system—well,
not even just the prison system,

1163
00:55:34.930 --> 00:55:36.630
the criminal justice system,

1164
00:55:36.630 --> 00:55:41.660
as there have been several exonerations
lately in the state of Alabama

1165
00:55:41.660 --> 00:55:43.880
which have prompted legislators

1166
00:55:43.880 --> 00:55:47.640
to create an inquiry—an Innocence
Inquiry Commission.

1167
00:55:47.640 --> 00:55:50.770
So we’re pushing for
transparency in the courts

1168
00:55:50.770 --> 00:55:53.310
and humanity in the prison system,

1169
00:55:53.310 --> 00:55:56.360
where we will actually have
educational rehabilitation

1170
00:55:56.360 --> 00:55:58.160
and re-entry preparedness,

1171
00:55:58.160 --> 00:56:01.220
as well as we need an overhaul
of the parole board,

1172
00:56:01.220 --> 00:56:04.770
as our parole board is
an arbitrary group of three men

1173
00:56:04.770 --> 00:56:08.060
who make decisions based on paperwork.

1174
00:56:08.060 --> 00:56:10.340
Actually, they never
actually talk to the person

1175
00:56:10.340 --> 00:56:12.670
who’s up for parole.

1176
00:56:12.670 --> 00:56:16.330
So we just need an overhaul completely,
from the courts, transparency

1177
00:56:16.330 --> 00:56:18.330
in the courts, humanity

1178
00:56:18.330 --> 00:56:20.870
and educational rehabilitation
in the prison system,

1179
00:56:21.430 --> 00:56:24.410
as well as a parole board
that sets the criteria

1180
00:56:24.410 --> 00:56:26.700
that lets a person
know what’s required of him

1181
00:56:26.700 --> 00:56:28.370
in order to make parole,

1182
00:56:28.370 --> 00:56:32.340
rather than being set up three
and five years based on the feelings

1183
00:56:32.340 --> 00:56:35.110
of a parole board
that never, ever sees you.

1184
00:56:36.190 --> 00:56:37.390
AMY GOODMAN: I want to make very clear:

1185
00:56:37.390 --> 00:56:39.820
We are speaking to Kinetik Justice

1186
00:56:39.820 --> 00:56:41.640
in solitary confinement

1187
00:56:41.640 --> 00:56:43.480
at Holman in Alabama,

1188
00:56:43.480 --> 00:56:46.610
one of the most overcrowded prisons
in the country.

1189
00:56:46.610 --> 00:56:49.450
How did you wind up
in solitary confinement, Kinetik?

1190
00:56:50.450 --> 00:56:53.490
KINETIC JUSTICE: Well, in January 2014,

1191
00:56:53.490 --> 00:56:56.580
in response to inhumane treatment

1192
00:56:56.580 --> 00:56:58.700
and unsanitary living conditions,

1193
00:56:58.700 --> 00:57:01.740
as well as the lack
of educational rehabilitation,

1194
00:57:01.740 --> 00:57:03.860
me and a couple
of my comrades

1195
00:57:03.860 --> 00:57:05.630
came together and put together

1196
00:57:05.630 --> 00:57:07.840
what is called
the Free Alabama Movement,

1197
00:57:07.840 --> 00:57:09.280
which is a movement
for the freedom,

1198
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:10.790
justice and equality
of the over

1199
00:57:10.790 --> 00:57:14.150
30,000 people incarcerated
in the state of Alabama.

1200
00:57:14.950 --> 00:57:18.420
On January of 2014 at Holman,

1201
00:57:18.420 --> 00:57:21.000
we began a coordinated work strike

1202
00:57:21.000 --> 00:57:24.360
that spread to three other institutions.

1203
00:57:24.360 --> 00:57:26.690
And as a result of that,

1204
00:57:26.690 --> 00:57:28.490
I was just labeled
as the leader

1205
00:57:28.490 --> 00:57:31.650
and targeted as the leader
of the Free Alabama Movement

1206
00:57:31.650 --> 00:57:35.620
and declared a threat to the security
of the Alabama Department of Corrections

1207
00:57:35.620 --> 00:57:38.240
and placed in solitary confinement
indefinitely.

1208
00:57:39.170 --> 00:57:41.780
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going
to have to break to end the show,

1209
00:57:41.780 --> 00:57:42.980
but we’re going to continue with you,

1210
00:57:42.980 --> 00:57:46.340
as well as Pastor Kenneth Glasgow,
founder and national president

1211
00:57:46.340 --> 00:57:48.580
of The Ordinary People’s Society,

1212
00:57:48.580 --> 00:57:50.160
a faith-based organization.

1213
00:57:50.160 --> 00:57:51.680
We’re going to speak
to him in Montgomery,

1214
00:57:51.680 --> 00:57:53.100
outside of the bars.

1215
00:57:53.100 --> 00:57:56.760
So we’ll post that online
at democracynow.org.

1216
00:57:56.760 --> 00:57:58.940
I want to thank you so much
for being with us.

1217
00:57:58.940 --> 00:58:01.960
Kinetik Justice, please stay
on the line if you can.

1218
00:58:01.960 --> 00:58:04.800
Kinetik Justice is co-founder
of Free Alabama Movement,

1219
00:58:04.800 --> 00:58:09.760
currently serving his 28th month—more
than two years—in solitary confinement

1220
00:58:09.760 --> 00:58:13.260
at William C. Holman Correctional
Facility in Alabama,

1221
00:58:13.260 --> 00:58:16.820
speaking to us
from solitary confinement in prison.

1222
00:58:16.820 --> 00:58:18.380
That does it for our broadcast.

1223
00:58:18.380 --> 00:58:19.940
We have job openings

1224
00:58:19.940 --> 00:58:23.460
in our video news production fellowship
and our internship program.

1225
00:58:23.460 --> 00:58:25.100
Go to democracynow.org.

1226
00:58:25.100 --> 00:58:26.520
I’m headed to Washington, D.C.,

1227
00:58:26.520 --> 00:58:28.660
part of our 100-city tour.

1228
00:58:28.660 --> 00:58:31.450
I’ll be at
the Plymouth Congregational Church

1229
00:58:31.970 --> 00:58:34.730
in Washington, D.C.,
tonight at 6:30.

1230
00:58:34.730 --> 00:58:37.700
Then, Saturday, it’s on
to Portland, Maine,

1231
00:58:37.700 --> 00:58:40.560
then in the evening
in Bangor on Saturday.

1232
00:58:40.560 --> 00:58:43.550
On Sunday, I’ll be at College
of the Atlantic in Bar Harbor

1233
00:58:43.550 --> 00:58:45.600
at 11:00 in the morning.

1234
00:58:45.600 --> 00:58:49.180
And then we’re on to Chicago
on Monday and Tuesday,

1235
00:58:49.180 --> 00:58:50.740
and Toronto at the end of the week.

1236
00:58:50.740 --> 00:58:53.160
Check democracynow.org for details.