WEBVTT

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From Pacifica,

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this is Democracy Now!

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The east part of Aleppo city

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has fallen in the hands
of Assad’s forces again,

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more than 70 percent
of the city destroyed.

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With the aid
of Russian airstrikes,

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the Syrian government
has retaken near full control

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of the city of Aleppo
after four years of fighting.

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Russia calls it a victory
against terrorists.

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The United States says
the Syrian government’s

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siege of Aleppo
represents a modern evil.

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We’ll look at the crisis in Syria

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and U.S.-Russian relations at a time

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when the CIA is accusing Moscow

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of helping Donald Trump
win the presidency.

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We’ll speak to professor
Stephen Cohen,

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who writes for The Nation,

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and Kenneth Roth,
head of Human Rights Watch.

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Then, Donald Trump nominates
former Texas Governor

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Rick Perry to head
the Energy Department—a department

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Perry once proposed to abolish,

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even though he couldn’t
remember the department’s name.

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It’s three agencies of government,
when I get there, that are gone:

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Commerce, Education and the—
what’s the third one there?

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Let’s see.
You can’t name the third one?

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The third agency of government I would—
Yeah.

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—I would do away with,
the Education, the—

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Commerce.
Commerce, and, let’s see—

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Oh, my.
I can’t.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,

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democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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Donald Trump has chosen
former Texas Governor

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Rick Perry to be energy secretary.

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Governor Perry famously attempted

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to propose to abolish
the Energy Department—but

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then couldn’t even
remember the agency

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during a live televised
debate in 2011,

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when Perry was running
for president.

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Gov. Rick Perry: "And I will tell you:

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It’s three agencies
of government,

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when I get there,
that are gone: Commerce,

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Education and the—what’s
the third one there?

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Let’s see."
Ron Paul: "You need five."

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Gov. Rick Perry: "Oh, five, OK.

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So, Commerce,
Education and the—ummm..."

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John Harwood: "EPA?"
Gov. Rick Perry: "EPA, there you go.

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No."
John Harwood: "Seriously?

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Is EPA the one you were
talking about, or...?"

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Gov. Rick Perry: "No sir. No, sir.

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We were talking about the,

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ummm, agencies of government.

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EPA needs to be rebuilt,
there’s no doubt about that."

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John Harwood: "But you
can’t name the third one?"

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Gov. Rick Perry: "The third agency
of government I would—"

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John Harwood: "Yes."

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Gov. Rick Perry: "—I would do away
with, the Education,

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the, uhhh,

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Commerce and,
let’s see.

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I can’t. The third one, I can’t.

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Sorry.
Oops."

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He later told reporters
that the agency he had forgotten

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was the Energy Department.

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Perry has deep ties
to the fossil fuel industry,

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including serving on
the corporate boards

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of both Energy
Transfer Partners

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and Sunoco Logistics,

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two companies behind
the Dakota Access pipeline.

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Both companies are owned
by Texas billionaire Kelcy Warren.

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Perry joined the board
of Energy Transfer Partners

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in February 2015,

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only two weeks
after he left office.

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That year, he received $365,000

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from Warren’s companies.

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We’ll have more on Perry later
in the broadcast.

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The Energy Department is defying
Donald Trump’s transition team,

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saying it will not provide
the names of people

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working on the Obama
administration’s climate policy.

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Last week, Trump’s team circulated
a 74-part questionnaire

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at the Department of Energy

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requesting the names of employees

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working on specific
climate-related projects

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and the names of employees
who have attended climate

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talks over the last five years.

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Many have denounced the move

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as the creation
of an "enemies list."

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Donald Trump has reportedly
picked Montana Congressmember

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Ryan Zinke to be interior secretary.

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Zinke has denied scientists

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have proven the human impact
on climate change.

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He’s also long
promoted mining

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and logging on
federally held lands.

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The transition team
had previously floated

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Washington Congressmember

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Cathy McMorris Rodgers

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as Trump’s top pick
for interior secretary,

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which Democracy Now!
and other news outlets reported.

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The Environmental
Protection Agency

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has released its final report
on the impacts of fracking,

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concluding after a six-year study

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that fracking does
contaminate drinking water

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"under some circumstances."

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The report found
that all stages

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of the fracking process
have the potential

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to contaminate
drinking water.

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It’s the most comprehensive study

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on fracking to date,

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and it comes after years
of residents reporting their water

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had been contaminated
by the drilling process.

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Heads of the nation’s
top technology companies,

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including Apple, Facebook and Amazon,

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are meeting with President-elect
Donald Trump today.

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An increasing number
of technology workers

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and at least one major company have said

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they will not participate
in the creation

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of a national
registry

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for people
from majority-Muslim countries—one

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of Trump’s
campaign proposals.

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Hundreds of tech workers
have signed on to a pledge

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titled "Never Again,"

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saying, "We refuse to participate
in the creation

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of databases of identifying information
for the United States

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government to target individuals

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based on race, religion,
or national origin."

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The company Twitter has also said

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it would not participate

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in the creation
of such a database,

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after being contacted
by The Intercept.

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In Syria, a tentative ceasefire

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and evacuation plan for civilians

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and anti-government rebels
in eastern Aleppo

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has reportedly
collapsed this morning,

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as Syrian government troops

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have seized near full control
over Aleppo.

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Anti-government activists
from the Aleppo Media Center

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say Syrian government

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shelling continues
in the few rebel-held areas,

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although Syrian state media
says the fire

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is coming from the rebels.

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The U.N. said at least
82 civilians,

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including women and children,

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have been shot on sight

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by Syrian government troops
in recent days.

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The Syrian government offensive

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comes after eastern Aleppo
has been besieged

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and bombarded for months
by government forces

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and Russian airstrikes.

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Anti-government activists,

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who first rose up against
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad

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in a democratic
popular uprising in 2011,

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have called the fall
of Aleppo "doomsday."

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Russia has described it as victory

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against terrorists and jihadists.

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We’ll have more on Syria
after headlines.

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U.S. has reportedly
halted the sale

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of some weapons to Saudi Arabia

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amid mounting concerns
about the U.S.-backed,

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Saudi-led bombing
campaign in Yemen.

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Since March 2015,
more than 10,000 people

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have died in the ongoing conflict

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in Yemen—the vast majority killed

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by Saudi-led airstrikes.

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The U.S. has continued
to sell warplanes

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and munitions to the Saudi-led
coalition throughout the war,

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and U.S.-made munitions
have been found

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at the scene of Saudi-led bombings

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where civilians
have been killed.

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On Tuesday, an unnamed
official told Reuters,

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"We’ve decided not to move forward

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with some foreign
military sales cases

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for air-dropped
munitions, PGMs

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[precision-guided munitions].

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That’s obviously
a direct reflection

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of the concerns that we have
about Saudi strikes

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that have resulted
in civilian casualties."

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The ongoing war has also sparked
a medical and hunger crisis.

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A new UNICEF report says

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a child dies
every 10 minutes in Yemen

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because of malnutrition, diarrhea
or respiratory-tract infection.

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The report also says Yemen’s
most heavily bombed region,

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the Saada governorate,

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now has the world’s
highest rate of stunting,

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a symptom of chronic
malnourishment in children.

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Human Rights Watch says

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satellite imagery shows
the Burmese military

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intentionally razed Rohingya villages

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in the state of Rakhine.

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The United Nations
has called on Burma

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leader Aung San Suu
Kyi to intervene

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and halt the military campaign

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against the long-persecuted
Muslim ethnic group.

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The recent military campaign
has reportedly included

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the rape and killing of civilians,

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as well as the use
of helicopter gunships

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to open fire against Rohingyas below.

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The entire area has been sealed
by a military order in order

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to keep out aid workers
and journalists.

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At least 10,000 Rohingyas
have been forced

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to flee into Bangladesh
to escape the violence,

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while others have fled
to nearby refugee camps.

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These are two refugees
speaking from a camp

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in the capital
of the state of Rakhine.

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Yawzi Rabiegun: "We have
nothing to eat here.

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Our children are dying.

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We get support once
in a month or two.

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How can we survive?"

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Noro Salam: "We do not
have good healthcare.

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We sleep in poor conditions.
It is very hot.

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And there are no good roads.
We have nothing to eat.

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All the food aid
we had is gone now.

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Most of the families here
cannot afford to cook rice now."

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In more news on Burma,
the Committee to Protect Journalists

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is demanding authorities investigate

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the murder of crime
reporter Soe Moe Tun.

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He was a journalist for
the local newspaper Daily Eleven.

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He was in the process of
investigating illegal logging and wood

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smuggling when his body
was discovered Tuesday along

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the side of the road.

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In Mexico City,
activists are protesting the eviction

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of the autonomous community
space Chanti Ollin,

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which was violently
raided last month

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by hundreds of riot police
with military equipment,

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including two helicopters and a tank.

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The space was one of
the oldest squats in Mexico City

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and was located in the rapidly
gentrifying downtown financial district.

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On Monday, activists protested
outside the Attorney General’s Office

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to demand officials
return the space to the community

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and close the cases
against the 26 people

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who were arrested during
the eviction on November 22.

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In financial news,
Wells Fargo has failed

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for the second time this year
the "living will"

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regulatory test—
a key evaluation

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established after
the 2008 financial crisis.

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The test judges whether
banks have plans in place

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to avoid crashing
the global economy

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in the event of a bank failure.

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Wells Fargo also failed
this test in April.

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Wells Fargo is already
under increasing scrutiny over

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its financing of the Dakota
Access pipeline,

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as well as the massive scandal

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over the creation
of 2 million fake accounts,

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which Wells Fargo employees opened

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in order to meet grueling
sales targets.

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At Standing Rock in North Dakota,

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water protectors fighting

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the $3.8 billion
Dakota Access pipeline

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are calling on Morton County

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to drop an arrest warrant issued

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for Brennon Nastacio,

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the Pueblo water protector

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who disarmed a Dakota Access
security contractor

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attempting to infiltrate
the resistance camps

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on October 27.

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A video shows Nastacio

256
00:11:23.110 --> 00:11:25.970
convincing pipeline
security contractor

257
00:11:25.970 --> 00:11:27.300
Kyle Thompson

258
00:11:27.300 --> 00:11:30.610
to stop pointing
his AR-15 rifle

259
00:11:30.610 --> 00:11:31.830
at the Native Americans

260
00:11:31.830 --> 00:11:34.580
and then hand over
his 30-round clip.

261
00:11:34.580 --> 00:11:36.710
Thompson was later arrested

262
00:11:36.710 --> 00:11:39.070
by Bureau of Indian
Affairs police.

263
00:11:39.070 --> 00:11:42.880
But Morton County went on
to release Thompson without charges

264
00:11:42.880 --> 00:11:45.110
and instead issued an arrest warrant

265
00:11:45.110 --> 00:11:47.740
for water protector Nastacio on charges

266
00:11:47.740 --> 00:11:49.440
of "felony terrorizing."

267
00:11:50.000 --> 00:11:51.370
Nastacio has also been placed

268
00:11:51.370 --> 00:11:53.360
on Morton County’s
most wanted list.

269
00:11:53.360 --> 00:11:55.840
This is Pueblo water
protector Brennon Nastacio.

270
00:11:56.750 --> 00:11:57.960
Brennon Nastacio: 
"To be on Morton County’s

271
00:11:57.960 --> 00:12:01.290
most wanted list sends me a message

272
00:12:01.290 --> 00:12:03.800
that Morton County doesn’t care
about the people at camp.

273
00:12:05.030 --> 00:12:07.220
They would have rather
let Kyle Thompson come in

274
00:12:07.220 --> 00:12:10.790
and shoot everybody at camp
than for me to disarm him.

275
00:12:12.360 --> 00:12:14.260
I hope that ain’t the case,
Morton County.

276
00:12:15.350 --> 00:12:18.080
And I hope they realize
that I saved lives that day,

277
00:12:19.310 --> 00:12:21.570
and drop this arrest warrant
that they have out for me.

278
00:12:22.810 --> 00:12:26.020
You know, I approached
Kyle Thompson to disarm him

279
00:12:26.020 --> 00:12:29.160
because I was concerned
about the safety of the camp."

280
00:12:29.970 --> 00:12:32.110
In Ohio, Governor John Kasich

281
00:12:32.110 --> 00:12:35.540
has vetoed a piece of
anti-abortion legislation

282
00:12:35.540 --> 00:12:37.270
that would have
banned abortion

283
00:12:37.270 --> 00:12:39.850
from the moment
a heartbeat can be detected,

284
00:12:39.850 --> 00:12:42.580
which is usually about
six weeks into pregnancy.

285
00:12:46.290 --> 00:12:48.380
But he did sign
into law Tuesday

286
00:12:48.380 --> 00:12:51.650
another extreme piece
of anti-abortion legislation

287
00:12:51.650 --> 00:12:54.690
that bans the procedure
after 20 weeks of pregnancy,

288
00:12:54.690 --> 00:12:56.980
even in the case of rape or incest.

289
00:12:56.980 --> 00:12:59.180
The ACLU has vowed
to challenge the law,

290
00:12:59.180 --> 00:13:01.520
which it says
is unconstitutional.

291
00:13:02.290 --> 00:13:03.560
Meanwhile, in Oklahoma,

292
00:13:03.560 --> 00:13:05.550
lawmakers have approved
new regulations

293
00:13:05.550 --> 00:13:08.200
that will require all facilities
with public bathrooms

294
00:13:08.200 --> 00:13:10.580
licensed by the state
Health Department to post

295
00:13:10.580 --> 00:13:12.180
anti-choice signs

296
00:13:12.180 --> 00:13:14.570
advertising pregnancy crisis centers

297
00:13:14.570 --> 00:13:17.630
and other anti-abortion websites
and information.

298
00:13:17.630 --> 00:13:19.140
Starting in 2018,

299
00:13:19.140 --> 00:13:21.420
the signs would be required
in all hospitals,

300
00:13:21.420 --> 00:13:23.280
restaurants and public schools

301
00:13:23.280 --> 00:13:26.720
under the Humanity
of the Unborn Child Act.

302
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:28.120
The regulations
were pushed by

303
00:13:28.120 --> 00:13:30.200
the anti-choice
group Oklahomans

304
00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.030
for Life
with the goal of

305
00:13:32.030 --> 00:13:34.760
"achieving an abortion-free society."

306
00:13:36.220 --> 00:13:38.100
And in Bakersfield,
California,

307
00:13:38.100 --> 00:13:40.520
more than 100 residents
and family members

308
00:13:40.520 --> 00:13:42.660
gathered for a candlelight
vigil Tuesday night

309
00:13:42.660 --> 00:13:44.270
for Francisco Serna,

310
00:13:44.270 --> 00:13:45.690
a 73-year-old man

311
00:13:45.690 --> 00:13:47.670
who was shot
seven times by police

312
00:13:47.670 --> 00:13:49.350
just after midnight on Monday

313
00:13:49.350 --> 00:13:51.550
as he was taking a walk
in his neighborhood.

314
00:13:51.550 --> 00:13:53.190
Serna’s family says
he suffered

315
00:13:53.190 --> 00:13:55.120
from the early stages of dementia,

316
00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.090
and he would take
walks at night

317
00:13:57.090 --> 00:13:59.050
when he was having
trouble sleeping.

318
00:13:59.050 --> 00:14:00.880
Police say they were
responding to a call

319
00:14:00.880 --> 00:14:03.210
about an armed man
walking around the neighborhood.

320
00:14:03.210 --> 00:14:04.960
But the police later
admitted Serna

321
00:14:04.960 --> 00:14:07.230
did not have a gun
or any weapon.

322
00:14:07.230 --> 00:14:10.470
Instead, the police said Serna
was carrying a crucifix.

323
00:14:10.470 --> 00:14:12.630
Police say all seven officers
involved in Serna’s killing

324
00:14:12.630 --> 00:14:13.930
have been put on leave.
Bakersfield is in Kern County.

325
00:14:13.930 --> 00:14:15.710
In 2015, Kern had
the highest rate

326
00:14:15.710 --> 00:14:17.330
of police killings of civilians
per capita

327
00:14:17.330 --> 00:14:20.030
of any county
in the United States.

328
00:14:20.030 --> 00:14:21.480
And those are some
of the headlines

329
00:14:21.480 --> 00:14:24.230
this is Democracy Now,
Democracynow.org,

330
00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:25.840
the War and Peace Report.

331
00:14:25.840 --> 00:14:27.520
I’m Amy Goodman.

332
00:14:27.520 --> 00:14:29.630
AMY GOODMAN: With the aid
of Russian airstrikes,

333
00:14:29.630 --> 00:14:32.130
Syria has taken near full control

334
00:14:32.130 --> 00:14:33.550
of the city of Aleppo

335
00:14:33.550 --> 00:14:35.490
in a major defeat for forces

336
00:14:35.490 --> 00:14:37.910
hoping to topple
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

337
00:14:38.520 --> 00:14:41.590
Before fighting began in 2012,

338
00:14:41.590 --> 00:14:43.970
Aleppo was Syria’s
largest city,

339
00:14:43.970 --> 00:14:46.180
with a population
of over 2 million.

340
00:14:46.680 --> 00:14:49.500
Some of the first
major peaceful protests

341
00:14:49.500 --> 00:14:53.450
against Assad’s rule broke out
in Aleppo in March 2011.

342
00:14:53.450 --> 00:14:55.500
But today the city is in shambles,

343
00:14:55.500 --> 00:14:58.770
after four years of fighting
between Syria and rebel groups.

344
00:14:59.330 --> 00:15:00.890
A turning point in the battle

345
00:15:00.890 --> 00:15:03.710
of Aleppo occurred in September 2015,

346
00:15:03.710 --> 00:15:06.150
when Russia began
carrying out airstrikes

347
00:15:06.150 --> 00:15:08.000
to aid the Syrian government.

348
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:10.530
Negotiations are now
ongoing for a truce

349
00:15:10.530 --> 00:15:12.550
to allow the evacuation of civilians

350
00:15:12.550 --> 00:15:15.690
living in the areas
once held by rebel forces.

351
00:15:15.690 --> 00:15:18.580
An initial truce
collapsed earlier today.

352
00:15:18.580 --> 00:15:22.950
Ismail Alabdullah, a volunteer
with the Syrian Civil Defense,

353
00:15:22.950 --> 00:15:25.320
or White Helmets,
said civilians

354
00:15:25.320 --> 00:15:27.550
had been executed
by government forces.

355
00:15:28.470 --> 00:15:33.040
ISMAIL ALABDULLAH: When Assad’s forces
captured al-Bustan al-Qasr neighborhood

356
00:15:33.040 --> 00:15:37.640
and al-Fardos neighborhood,
Assad’s forces,

357
00:15:37.640 --> 00:15:41.490
when they entered—when
they entered these neighborhoods,

358
00:15:42.100 --> 00:15:45.140
they executed 82 people.

359
00:15:45.810 --> 00:15:49.510
And the relatives
of the victims,

360
00:15:49.510 --> 00:15:52.640
who are now with us,
told us they were executed,

361
00:15:53.580 --> 00:15:57.520
including like 13 kids
and seven women.

362
00:15:58.930 --> 00:16:00.190
All of them were executed.

363
00:16:00.190 --> 00:16:04.250
And what we are now—and

364
00:16:04.250 --> 00:16:07.400
what we worry about, about our

365
00:16:07.400 --> 00:16:10.000
[inaudible], that maybe
the genocide—that

366
00:16:10.000 --> 00:16:11.720
genocide will happen
in the coming days,

367
00:16:11.720 --> 00:16:15.700
if nothing will stop them
in the coming hours.

368
00:16:15.700 --> 00:16:17.810
AMY GOODMAN: Russia described
the fall of Aleppo

369
00:16:17.810 --> 00:16:20.270
as a victory against
terrorists and jihadists,

370
00:16:20.270 --> 00:16:23.670
but the United States has decried
the Russian-backed offensive.

371
00:16:23.670 --> 00:16:25.610
U.S. Ambassador
to the United Nations

372
00:16:25.610 --> 00:16:27.540
Samantha Power said, quote,

373
00:16:27.540 --> 00:16:29.150
"Aleppo will join the ranks

374
00:16:29.150 --> 00:16:30.940
of those events
in world history

375
00:16:30.940 --> 00:16:32.750
that define modern evil,

376
00:16:32.750 --> 00:16:34.320
that stain our conscience

377
00:16:34.320 --> 00:16:36.160
decades later—Halabja,

378
00:16:36.160 --> 00:16:39.750
Rwanda, Srebrenica
and now Aleppo," unquote.

379
00:16:39.750 --> 00:16:41.890
The U.N. said at least
82 civilians,

380
00:16:41.890 --> 00:16:44.380
including women and children,
have been shot on sight

381
00:16:44.380 --> 00:16:46.850
by Syrian government troops
in recent days.

382
00:16:46.850 --> 00:16:48.410
To talk more about Syria,

383
00:16:48.410 --> 00:16:51.020
as well as how the fall
of Aleppo impacts

384
00:16:51.020 --> 00:16:52.530
U.S.-Russian relations,

385
00:16:52.530 --> 00:16:54.180
we’re joined by two guests.

386
00:16:54.180 --> 00:16:55.840
Kenneth Roth is with us,

387
00:16:55.840 --> 00:16:58.120
executive director
of Human Rights Watch.

388
00:16:58.120 --> 00:17:00.470
His new article for
The New York Review of Books

389
00:17:00.470 --> 00:17:03.100
is headlined "What Trump
Should Do in Syria."

390
00:17:03.100 --> 00:17:05.230
And Stephen Cohen also joins us,

391
00:17:05.230 --> 00:17:07.380
professor emeritus of Russian studies

392
00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:09.530
and politics at New York University

393
00:17:09.530 --> 00:17:11.050
and Princeton University.

394
00:17:11.050 --> 00:17:13.960
He’s a contributing editor
at The Nation magazine.

395
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:15.570
Welcome, both, to Democracy Now!

396
00:17:15.570 --> 00:17:17.590
Ken Roth, let’s begin with you.

397
00:17:17.590 --> 00:17:19.300
What’s happened in Syria?

398
00:17:19.300 --> 00:17:21.640
And talk about Russia’s role.

399
00:17:21.640 --> 00:17:23.810
KENNETH ROTH: Well, we’re all focused
on Aleppo right now.

400
00:17:23.810 --> 00:17:25.650
And I think, as you mentioned earlier,

401
00:17:25.650 --> 00:17:30.240
Aleppo has been the victim
of several months of siege,

402
00:17:30.240 --> 00:17:31.890
basically a starvation
of everybody there,

403
00:17:31.890 --> 00:17:36.410
not simply the fighters,
but up to 250,000 civilians.

404
00:17:36.410 --> 00:17:40.660
It also has been the victim
of ongoing bombardment

405
00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:42.690
by Syrian and Russian forces.

406
00:17:42.690 --> 00:17:44.610
And what’s notable about the way

407
00:17:44.610 --> 00:17:46.100
this war has been fought—and Aleppo

408
00:17:46.100 --> 00:17:47.890
is no exception to this—is

409
00:17:47.890 --> 00:17:50.200
that the Syrian-Russian combination

410
00:17:50.200 --> 00:17:53.480
have not simply aimed at fighters
on the other side,

411
00:17:53.480 --> 00:17:55.130
which is what you’re
supposed to do in war,

412
00:17:55.130 --> 00:17:57.670
but they have deliberately
targeted civilians

413
00:17:57.670 --> 00:18:01.100
and civilian institutions,
like hospitals or markets and the like.

414
00:18:01.100 --> 00:18:02.830
And the aim is to make life

415
00:18:02.830 --> 00:18:05.750
so miserable that people either flee

416
00:18:05.750 --> 00:18:08.620
or the enclave
ultimately topples.

417
00:18:08.620 --> 00:18:10.670
That’s been this tactic
in other areas,

418
00:18:10.670 --> 00:18:13.380
and now that has been
successful in Aleppo.

419
00:18:13.380 --> 00:18:16.370
This is an overt
war crime strategy,

420
00:18:16.370 --> 00:18:18.790
and it’s been Assad’s method

421
00:18:18.790 --> 00:18:20.600
of fighting the war
from the outset.

422
00:18:20.600 --> 00:18:23.520
And Russia very much joined it,
when, a little over year ago,

423
00:18:23.520 --> 00:18:25.900
in September 2015, it joined in.

424
00:18:25.900 --> 00:18:27.220
We had all hoped
at that stage that

425
00:18:27.220 --> 00:18:30.010
the greater precision
that Russian Air Force

426
00:18:30.010 --> 00:18:33.380
brought to the fighting would enable
a more targeted approach.

427
00:18:33.380 --> 00:18:35.540
In fact, they just
continued the policy

428
00:18:35.540 --> 00:18:37.010
of targeting civilians.

429
00:18:37.010 --> 00:18:39.880
Now, we had hoped,
as of last night,

430
00:18:39.880 --> 00:18:42.140
that for the remaining civilians

431
00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:44.090
in Aleppo—as well
as the fighters,

432
00:18:44.090 --> 00:18:45.850
apparently—that there
would be an evacuation.

433
00:18:45.850 --> 00:18:47.630
That had been arranged.

434
00:18:47.630 --> 00:18:50.090
But this morning,
Shia militia,

435
00:18:50.090 --> 00:18:51.450
backed by Iran,

436
00:18:51.450 --> 00:18:54.610
blocked that deal and resumed
shelling the area.

437
00:18:54.610 --> 00:18:56.600
This is of deep concern

438
00:18:56.600 --> 00:19:00.310
because, as you heard
from the White Helmet individual,

439
00:19:00.310 --> 00:19:03.310
there have been
executions in Aleppo

440
00:19:03.310 --> 00:19:05.620
when pro-government forces
have entered.

441
00:19:05.620 --> 00:19:07.790
They, in particular,
have been targeting

442
00:19:07.790 --> 00:19:09.720
the families of fighters.

443
00:19:09.720 --> 00:19:11.870
These are well known,
and they’re going door to door

444
00:19:11.870 --> 00:19:13.680
and executing women
and children,

445
00:19:13.680 --> 00:19:15.390
as well as others who are there.

446
00:19:15.390 --> 00:19:17.350
So there’s deep concern
that if the people

447
00:19:17.350 --> 00:19:18.640
who remain in eastern

448
00:19:18.640 --> 00:19:20.760
Aleppo cannot get out,

449
00:19:20.760 --> 00:19:22.350
that they, too, may face

450
00:19:22.350 --> 00:19:24.370
these kinds
of summary executions.

451
00:19:24.370 --> 00:19:26.190
AMY GOODMAN: So, are you accusing Russia

452
00:19:26.190 --> 00:19:28.380
and Syria of war crimes here?

453
00:19:28.380 --> 00:19:29.750
KENNETH ROTH: Absolutely.
In other words,

454
00:19:29.750 --> 00:19:32.350
I mean, the fighters
on the ground today

455
00:19:32.350 --> 00:19:35.610
are principally either
Syrian or—I mean,

456
00:19:35.610 --> 00:19:37.670
the other major forces
that have been backing Syria

457
00:19:37.670 --> 00:19:40.920
on the ground
have been Iran and Hezbollah.

458
00:19:40.920 --> 00:19:43.760
Russia has been playing
mainly an aerial role.

459
00:19:43.760 --> 00:19:47.290
But it—and often you can’t
tell which plane is which.

460
00:19:47.290 --> 00:19:48.670
You know, there are various efforts.

461
00:19:48.670 --> 00:19:53.070
But the combination
of the Assad-Putin air forces

462
00:19:53.070 --> 00:19:56.050
have been deliberately
bombing civilians

463
00:19:56.050 --> 00:19:58.710
and civilian institutions,
time and time again.

464
00:19:58.710 --> 00:20:00.100
You speak to people
in hospitals

465
00:20:00.100 --> 00:20:02.610
who report being targeted
over and over again,

466
00:20:02.610 --> 00:20:05.240
until ultimately the hospital
is destroyed.

467
00:20:05.240 --> 00:20:07.110
And this, you know, sadly,

468
00:20:07.110 --> 00:20:09.820
has been the strategy
that Putin and Assad

469
00:20:09.820 --> 00:20:11.310
have pursued in Syria.

470
00:20:11.310 --> 00:20:12.630
This is a blatant war crime.

471
00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:15.280
The Geneva Conventions require
that you take all feasible

472
00:20:15.280 --> 00:20:17.210
precautions to spare civilians.

473
00:20:17.210 --> 00:20:19.120
In this case,
the deliberate purpose

474
00:20:19.120 --> 00:20:20.770
has been to target civilians.

475
00:20:20.770 --> 00:20:22.290
It’s a blatant war crime.

476
00:20:22.290 --> 00:20:24.290
AMY GOODMAN: Professor Stephen Cohen?

477
00:20:25.150 --> 00:20:26.880
STEPHEN COHEN: Is anybody
here old enough

478
00:20:26.880 --> 00:20:29.440
to remember the expression
"fog of war"?

479
00:20:30.850 --> 00:20:32.800
I think it may have originated
in World War I.

480
00:20:32.800 --> 00:20:35.260
I’m not sure.
But then, when you get a war,

481
00:20:36.480 --> 00:20:38.950
you have a very difficult time

482
00:20:39.590 --> 00:20:42.660
getting reliable information
about what’s going on.

483
00:20:43.300 --> 00:20:46.320
There are several narratives
about the Syrian

484
00:20:46.320 --> 00:20:48.630
civil proxy war—and

485
00:20:48.630 --> 00:20:51.640
that’s what it is,
a lot of great powers,

486
00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.030
or would-be great powers,
involved in Syria.

487
00:20:54.760 --> 00:20:58.900
The United States and Russia
are involved in a proxy war there.

488
00:20:58.900 --> 00:21:00.900
It’s a civil war.

489
00:21:01.490 --> 00:21:07.480
The account Mr. Roth just
gave is only one of two

490
00:21:07.480 --> 00:21:09.490
or three competing narratives.

491
00:21:11.040 --> 00:21:15.160
One narrative is—and in war,
innocents die.

492
00:21:15.160 --> 00:21:16.660
That’s why we’re all antiwar.

493
00:21:17.390 --> 00:21:20.120
He says that the Russians
joined with the Syrians

494
00:21:20.120 --> 00:21:21.780
in deliberate war crimes.

495
00:21:22.540 --> 00:21:25.050
This is based on
very selective reports

496
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:28.250
that come from sources
that cannot be verified.

497
00:21:28.250 --> 00:21:30.490
For example, the White Helmet man,

498
00:21:31.060 --> 00:21:32.940
that you had testify to this,

499
00:21:33.550 --> 00:21:35.990
didn’t tell us how he knew that,

500
00:21:35.990 --> 00:21:37.620
how he observed it,

501
00:21:37.620 --> 00:21:40.150
how he escaped
with his own life.

502
00:21:40.150 --> 00:21:42.980
Moreover, there are people
who doubt the reports

503
00:21:42.980 --> 00:21:44.370
that come from the White Helmets,

504
00:21:44.370 --> 00:21:46.060
that they have an agenda.

505
00:21:46.060 --> 00:21:47.850
So the rest of us are left here

506
00:21:47.850 --> 00:21:50.750
trying to weigh
the different narratives.

507
00:21:50.750 --> 00:21:55.030
Mr. Roth’s is a very
extreme set of accusations.

508
00:21:55.580 --> 00:21:58.460
What Samantha Power has said
at the United Nations,

509
00:21:58.460 --> 00:22:00.070
over a long period of time,

510
00:22:00.820 --> 00:22:02.710
can’t be taken at face value,

511
00:22:02.710 --> 00:22:05.480
because she has performed
there not as an ambassador,

512
00:22:05.480 --> 00:22:07.960
but as a propagandist
for a certain point of view.

513
00:22:08.900 --> 00:22:10.500
The problem here is,

514
00:22:10.500 --> 00:22:12.920
is that what’s the alternative

515
00:22:12.920 --> 00:22:16.820
to ending the siege of Aleppo?

516
00:22:16.820 --> 00:22:21.570
Now, you, Amy, Mr. Roth
and The New York

517
00:22:21.570 --> 00:22:24.980
Times have dropped
the word "jihadist"

518
00:22:24.980 --> 00:22:26.970
and "terrorist"
from your narrative.

519
00:22:26.970 --> 00:22:28.640
I don’t know if you’re aware
you’ve done that.

520
00:22:29.360 --> 00:22:32.410
You may have done this
because The New York Times,

521
00:22:32.410 --> 00:22:35.970
until September—why
was September important?

522
00:22:37.060 --> 00:22:40.690
Because President Obama
had proposed to join

523
00:22:40.690 --> 00:22:42.850
with President Putin

524
00:22:42.850 --> 00:22:46.470
in what Mr. Roth now
calls war crimes—that

525
00:22:46.470 --> 00:22:48.670
is, a military alliance

526
00:22:48.670 --> 00:22:51.670
against the people
who are holding Aleppo captive.

527
00:22:51.670 --> 00:22:53.260
And they called them terrorists.

528
00:22:53.930 --> 00:22:57.940
When our Department
of Defense sabotaged

529
00:22:57.940 --> 00:23:04.270
that potential Russian-American
alliance in Aleppo,

530
00:23:04.270 --> 00:23:07.310
in Syria, suddenly the narrative—and

531
00:23:07.310 --> 00:23:09.780
we’re back to the fog
of war—changed.

532
00:23:09.780 --> 00:23:12.340
The New York Times,
for example,

533
00:23:12.340 --> 00:23:14.720
and many of us
who depend on the Times

534
00:23:14.720 --> 00:23:16.640
or The Washington Post
for our information,

535
00:23:17.680 --> 00:23:19.030
suddenly changed
their narrative.

536
00:23:19.030 --> 00:23:21.370
There were no longer
any terrorists in Aleppo,

537
00:23:21.370 --> 00:23:23.240
no longer any jihadists,

538
00:23:23.240 --> 00:23:24.940
but people called rebels.

539
00:23:25.740 --> 00:23:28.720
And since our nation
began in rebellion

540
00:23:28.720 --> 00:23:30.250
against Great Britain,

541
00:23:30.250 --> 00:23:34.220
rebels have a rather
positive connotation.

542
00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:35.940
The reality is,

543
00:23:35.940 --> 00:23:37.610
I think—at least
this is

544
00:23:37.610 --> 00:23:39.290
what the United States
government told us

545
00:23:39.290 --> 00:23:41.940
until September—that terrorists

546
00:23:41.940 --> 00:23:44.170
were holding large parts
of eastern Aleppo.

547
00:23:44.730 --> 00:23:49.480
They were not letting
innocent civilians use

548
00:23:49.480 --> 00:23:53.200
the multiple corridors
out of the city

549
00:23:53.840 --> 00:23:55.580
that the Russians—yes,

550
00:23:55.580 --> 00:23:56.780
there’s plenty of testimony

551
00:23:56.780 --> 00:23:59.360
to this—had opened up
and guaranteed,

552
00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:01.610
that people could
not escape the city

553
00:24:02.130 --> 00:24:04.100
because of these terrorists.

554
00:24:04.100 --> 00:24:08.050
Then, suddenly, when
the American-Russian—Obama’s plan

555
00:24:08.050 --> 00:24:10.290
to cooperate with
Putin there disappeared,

556
00:24:10.290 --> 00:24:11.970
apparently all the jihadists

557
00:24:11.970 --> 00:24:14.170
and the terrorists disappeared.

558
00:24:14.170 --> 00:24:17.320
So we’re left today
in a fog of war.

559
00:24:18.340 --> 00:24:21.080
Perhaps Mr. Roth is correct,

560
00:24:21.080 --> 00:24:22.730
but I don’t think
he’s fully correct.

561
00:24:22.730 --> 00:24:24.490
And we have two narratives.

562
00:24:24.490 --> 00:24:27.640
Either we have witnessed
the liberation of Aleppo,

563
00:24:28.630 --> 00:24:30.760
and then we would say
this is a good thing,

564
00:24:30.760 --> 00:24:33.240
or we’re witnessing war crimes

565
00:24:33.240 --> 00:24:35.410
by the Russians
and the Syrians in Aleppo,

566
00:24:35.410 --> 00:24:36.850
which is a bad thing.

567
00:24:36.850 --> 00:24:39.010
So, I would ask Mr. Roth:

568
00:24:40.040 --> 00:24:44.200
If the Russians hadn’t done
what he alleged they would do,

569
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:47.860
what was the alternative

570
00:24:47.860 --> 00:24:49.780
to setting the people
of Aleppo free?

571
00:24:51.070 --> 00:24:52.520
AMY GOODMAN: Ken Roth?

572
00:24:52.520 --> 00:24:55.700
KENNETH ROTH: Let me begin
with this fog of war argument,

573
00:24:55.700 --> 00:24:57.810
because, you know,
when there’s nothing to say,

574
00:24:57.810 --> 00:25:00.710
when there’s nothing to defend,
let’s resort to the fog of war.

575
00:25:00.710 --> 00:25:03.400
I mean, I’ve heard this argument
many, many times.

576
00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:05.930
This is not fog of war.
We know exactly what is going on.

577
00:25:05.930 --> 00:25:09.110
Human Rights Watch has teams
on the ground,

578
00:25:09.110 --> 00:25:11.880
based in Beirut,
occasionally going into Syria,

579
00:25:11.880 --> 00:25:13.720
in regular communication

580
00:25:13.720 --> 00:25:15.850
with people in Aleppo,
in other places.

581
00:25:15.850 --> 00:25:18.440
We don’t publish until we know
exactly what is going on,

582
00:25:18.440 --> 00:25:20.420
until we corroborate
and we’re certain.

583
00:25:20.420 --> 00:25:21.940
So this is not a matter of just,
you know,

584
00:25:21.940 --> 00:25:25.470
taking some jihadist propagandist
and repeating it.

585
00:25:25.470 --> 00:25:27.290
We know exactly
what is happening.

586
00:25:27.290 --> 00:25:31.420
And there is no question
that the bombardment

587
00:25:31.420 --> 00:25:34.010
has been targeting civilians
and civilian institutions.

588
00:25:34.010 --> 00:25:35.380
There is no question

589
00:25:35.380 --> 00:25:38.420
that the siege
was starving everybody,

590
00:25:38.420 --> 00:25:40.420
including a quarter
of a million civilians.

591
00:25:40.420 --> 00:25:43.900
So, you know, fog of war?
Please. You know, this is the reality.

592
00:25:43.900 --> 00:25:46.270
Now, what—you know,
what could have been done?

593
00:25:48.160 --> 00:25:49.560
We speak about terrorists,

594
00:25:49.560 --> 00:25:51.410
and so let’s get specific here.

595
00:25:52.500 --> 00:25:55.950
When people use that term,
they generally refer to two groups.

596
00:25:55.950 --> 00:25:58.250
One is the Islamic State, or ISIS.

597
00:25:58.250 --> 00:26:00.870
ISIS is actually not
in Aleppo at all.

598
00:26:00.870 --> 00:26:03.230
The U.S., working
with its Kurdish allies,

599
00:26:03.230 --> 00:26:06.360
is fighting ISIS, you know,
in Iraq around Mosul

600
00:26:06.360 --> 00:26:08.580
and in Syria around Raqqa.

601
00:26:09.310 --> 00:26:11.080
And Russia, for the most part,

602
00:26:11.080 --> 00:26:14.010
and Assad have largely
been ignoring that fight.

603
00:26:14.010 --> 00:26:15.790
They’ve been focusing on Aleppo.

604
00:26:15.790 --> 00:26:18.140
Now, in Aleppo,
there are what are known

605
00:26:18.140 --> 00:26:20.080
as sort of the moderate rebels,

606
00:26:20.080 --> 00:26:22.750
and then there’s a group
that the United States agrees

607
00:26:22.750 --> 00:26:24.010
is a terrorist,
is an al-Qaeda

608
00:26:24.010 --> 00:26:25.700
affiliate—until
very recently,

609
00:26:25.700 --> 00:26:26.990
when it supposedly
distanced itself

610
00:26:26.990 --> 00:26:28.660
from al-Qaeda—traditionally known

611
00:26:28.660 --> 00:26:30.000
as Jabhat al-Nusra.

612
00:26:30.000 --> 00:26:31.360
The Jabhat al-Nusra forces

613
00:26:31.360 --> 00:26:35.120
are a relatively small component
of the people in Aleppo,

614
00:26:35.120 --> 00:26:36.900
but the U.S. has agreed with Russia

615
00:26:36.900 --> 00:26:39.440
that it would like to see
those people defeated.

616
00:26:40.250 --> 00:26:42.110
Now, you know,
however you feel about that,

617
00:26:42.110 --> 00:26:43.990
however you feel about the other rebels,

618
00:26:43.990 --> 00:26:47.570
the issue is—here, is not who wins.

619
00:26:47.570 --> 00:26:50.070
The issue is the method of warfare.

620
00:26:50.070 --> 00:26:52.540
And the right way to proceed

621
00:26:52.540 --> 00:26:55.300
is you shoot at the combatants
on the other side.

622
00:26:55.300 --> 00:26:57.160
That’s what the laws of war
are all about.

623
00:26:57.820 --> 00:27:00.390
Unfortunately, Putin and Assad

624
00:27:00.390 --> 00:27:03.200
have chosen to target the civilians
who also live there.

625
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.040
It’s a very
deliberate strategy:

626
00:27:05.040 --> 00:27:07.670
make life so miserable
that ultimately the city

627
00:27:07.670 --> 00:27:10.140
has no choice but to capitulate.

628
00:27:10.140 --> 00:27:12.530
Now, you know,
there is tremendous fear

629
00:27:12.530 --> 00:27:14.250
on the part of civilians

630
00:27:14.250 --> 00:27:16.110
in all of these enclaves
who are targeted,

631
00:27:16.110 --> 00:27:18.030
and they—on the one hand,
they fear staying there,

632
00:27:18.030 --> 00:27:19.980
because they’re facing
the bombardment

633
00:27:19.980 --> 00:27:21.870
by the Russian
and the Syrian troops;

634
00:27:21.870 --> 00:27:25.180
on the other hand, they fear
going over into Syrian hands,

635
00:27:25.180 --> 00:27:28.320
because, you know, we know
what happens in Syrian prisons.

636
00:27:28.320 --> 00:27:31.340
We’ve seen extensive torture
and execution.

637
00:27:31.340 --> 00:27:33.450
We have photos of, you know,
thousands of people

638
00:27:33.450 --> 00:27:35.050
who have died
in those prisons.

639
00:27:35.050 --> 00:27:37.440
And so, if you’re a young man,
for example,

640
00:27:37.440 --> 00:27:38.880
you basically
are facing a choice:

641
00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:41.660
You know, do you either
risk your life

642
00:27:41.660 --> 00:27:44.230
in Assad’s detention facilities,
or—you know,

643
00:27:44.230 --> 00:27:45.910
what they’re increasingly
doing is forcing you

644
00:27:45.910 --> 00:27:47.820
to just get into
the Syrian military

645
00:27:47.820 --> 00:27:49.740
and go to the front line—you know,

646
00:27:49.740 --> 00:27:51.770
essentially a suicide
mission there.

647
00:27:51.770 --> 00:27:54.690
So, it is, you know,
a very poor possibility.

648
00:27:54.690 --> 00:27:56.210
Now, many families
are staying

649
00:27:56.210 --> 00:27:58.270
with their relatives
who are fighters,

650
00:27:58.270 --> 00:28:01.030
and these are the people
who are being first targeted

651
00:28:01.030 --> 00:28:03.930
by the pro-government forces
that are coming in.

652
00:28:03.930 --> 00:28:06.130
So, we are—you know,
this is not about

653
00:28:06.130 --> 00:28:08.500
how do you defeat terrorists.

654
00:28:08.500 --> 00:28:10.970
This is about slaughter
of civilians.

655
00:28:10.970 --> 00:28:12.530
And we should keep that focus.

656
00:28:12.530 --> 00:28:14.100
AMY GOODMAN: Slaughter of civilians.

657
00:28:14.100 --> 00:28:17.690
The United Nations calls it
a meltdown of humanity.

658
00:28:17.690 --> 00:28:18.870
Stephen Cohen?

659
00:28:18.870 --> 00:28:22.120
STEPHEN COHEN: Well, the United Nations
has issued conflicting reports.

660
00:28:22.120 --> 00:28:24.290
There’s a bit of a struggle
at the United Nations

661
00:28:24.290 --> 00:28:26.850
about what to say
about all this.

662
00:28:26.850 --> 00:28:32.510
Look, Mr. Roth’s organization
does God’s work.

663
00:28:32.510 --> 00:28:34.290
No question about it.

664
00:28:34.290 --> 00:28:35.960
But for millennia,

665
00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:38.570
we’ve argued exactly
what God’s work is.

666
00:28:39.470 --> 00:28:42.790
One can support what
Human Rights Watch does,

667
00:28:42.790 --> 00:28:45.170
with great enthusiasm,
make a donation,

668
00:28:46.150 --> 00:28:47.640
urge Mr. Roth on,

669
00:28:47.640 --> 00:28:50.060
and still question
his narrative.

670
00:28:50.060 --> 00:28:53.370
He has, he asserts,

671
00:28:53.370 --> 00:28:55.350
absolutely verifiable sources.

672
00:28:56.050 --> 00:28:57.690
The reality is, he doesn’t.

673
00:28:57.690 --> 00:29:00.970
He criticizes me
for saying fog of war,

674
00:29:00.970 --> 00:29:02.370
but there are other reports

675
00:29:02.370 --> 00:29:04.050
that have to be
taken into account.

676
00:29:04.580 --> 00:29:06.390
The charge that Russia

677
00:29:06.950 --> 00:29:11.110
deliberately targets
civilian facilities

678
00:29:11.110 --> 00:29:12.690
and centers is, of course,

679
00:29:12.690 --> 00:29:16.430
a part of the growing
anti-Russian line

680
00:29:16.430 --> 00:29:17.980
that’s captured our politics

681
00:29:17.980 --> 00:29:22.210
and has led to this scandal
in Washington.

682
00:29:22.210 --> 00:29:24.510
I think we need to step
back for a minute.

683
00:29:25.350 --> 00:29:28.440
And I won’t speak of
my own involvement

684
00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:30.630
in human rights
or civil liberties,

685
00:29:30.630 --> 00:29:32.490
because I’m older
than both of you,

686
00:29:32.490 --> 00:29:34.020
and I would have you
at a disadvantage,

687
00:29:34.020 --> 00:29:36.110
because I’m not sure
you even remember

688
00:29:36.110 --> 00:29:37.460
these struggles—you do,

689
00:29:37.460 --> 00:29:39.840
but I’m not talking
about only in the South,

690
00:29:39.840 --> 00:29:41.060
but in Russia and elsewhere.

691
00:29:43.990 --> 00:29:48.780
Putin said, prior to sending
his Air Force

692
00:29:48.780 --> 00:29:50.770
to Syria,

693
00:29:50.770 --> 00:29:53.150
just over a year ago,
in September 2015,

694
00:29:53.150 --> 00:29:56.330
I think—said it
at the United Nations.

695
00:29:56.330 --> 00:29:58.310
He said it to President Obama.

696
00:29:58.310 --> 00:30:00.790
He said it at every press conference.

697
00:30:03.060 --> 00:30:05.130
During the period,
three-year period,

698
00:30:05.130 --> 00:30:07.130
prior to that, the United States

699
00:30:07.130 --> 00:30:09.520
claimed it was fighting
the Islamic State—and,

700
00:30:09.520 --> 00:30:11.240
of course, Mr. Roth is right:

701
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:14.330
There are different terrorist
groups fighting in Syria,

702
00:30:14.330 --> 00:30:16.980
some in Palmyra, some in Aleppo.

703
00:30:18.750 --> 00:30:20.650
During the three years
the United States

704
00:30:20.650 --> 00:30:25.230
claimed to have been
fighting the Islamic State,

705
00:30:25.230 --> 00:30:27.910
the Islamic State gained more and more

706
00:30:27.910 --> 00:30:29.720
and more territory,

707
00:30:29.720 --> 00:30:33.940
after the fall of Libya,
or after we overthrew Gaddafi.

708
00:30:33.940 --> 00:30:35.880
It gained more territory in Iraq,

709
00:30:35.880 --> 00:30:38.740
and it gained an enormous
territory in Syria.

710
00:30:38.740 --> 00:30:40.570
And something new emerged
in the world:

711
00:30:41.580 --> 00:30:43.590
a terrorist organization

712
00:30:43.590 --> 00:30:46.370
that had actually turned itself
into a real state.

713
00:30:46.370 --> 00:30:48.700
I mean, it was governing
these territories,

714
00:30:48.700 --> 00:30:53.330
running municipal facilities,
collecting taxes.

715
00:30:53.330 --> 00:30:56.500
This was something new
and exceedingly dangerous.

716
00:30:56.500 --> 00:30:58.880
So Putin said we have a choice:

717
00:30:59.640 --> 00:31:01.820
Who do we want in Damascus,

718
00:31:01.820 --> 00:31:03.580
the capital of Syria?

719
00:31:03.580 --> 00:31:06.740
Do we want Assad,
the president of Syria,

720
00:31:06.740 --> 00:31:09.830
or do we want
the Islamic State in Damascus?

721
00:31:09.830 --> 00:31:11.730
This was the key policy difference

722
00:31:11.730 --> 00:31:13.370
between the United States and Russia.

723
00:31:13.900 --> 00:31:16.930
The Obama had—administration
had pursued,

724
00:31:16.930 --> 00:31:20.490
in fact, a policy of
overthrowing Assad.

725
00:31:21.310 --> 00:31:23.500
Dealing with terrorists in Syria,

726
00:31:23.500 --> 00:31:25.090
some of whom we’ve funded,

727
00:31:25.090 --> 00:31:26.870
as Mr. Roth well knows,

728
00:31:28.930 --> 00:31:31.230
because they claimed
to be anti-Assad,

729
00:31:31.230 --> 00:31:32.980
meant that, in fact,

730
00:31:32.980 --> 00:31:35.460
as we pursued the war
against Assad,

731
00:31:35.460 --> 00:31:38.580
the Islamic State turned—took more
and more territory.

732
00:31:38.580 --> 00:31:41.070
And Russia decided
it had had enough,

733
00:31:41.070 --> 00:31:45.860
because it believed Syria was vital
to its national security,

734
00:31:45.860 --> 00:31:47.060
and it intervened,

735
00:31:47.060 --> 00:31:49.270
and the war has been
turned around.

736
00:31:50.610 --> 00:31:53.000
The United States has been
on the wrong side of history

737
00:31:53.710 --> 00:31:55.310
from the beginning of this.

738
00:31:55.310 --> 00:31:58.060
The United States
has made its contribution,

739
00:31:58.650 --> 00:31:59.950
since Vietnam, at least,

740
00:31:59.950 --> 00:32:01.670
to the destruction of hospitals

741
00:32:01.670 --> 00:32:03.330
and civilian facilities,

742
00:32:03.330 --> 00:32:05.340
most recently in Afghanistan.

743
00:32:05.340 --> 00:32:06.870
Was it deliberate?

744
00:32:06.870 --> 00:32:09.100
I don’t know.
It was probably an accident.

745
00:32:09.940 --> 00:32:12.130
In Mr. Roth’s absolutist view,

746
00:32:12.130 --> 00:32:14.520
everything is certain,
everything is deliberate.

747
00:32:14.520 --> 00:32:16.000
I’m more problematic.

748
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:17.870
But look what’s
happening in Syria today.

749
00:32:17.870 --> 00:32:19.140
It’s extremely interesting.

750
00:32:20.060 --> 00:32:22.110
The Russians and the Syrians,

751
00:32:22.110 --> 00:32:24.830
some months ago,
took back Palmyra,

752
00:32:24.830 --> 00:32:26.490
this historic city,

753
00:32:26.490 --> 00:32:30.110
where the Islamic State had been
chopping off heads in public,

754
00:32:30.110 --> 00:32:34.500
where it had lined up its victims
and had young children—

755
00:32:34.500 --> 00:32:37.250
looked to be about 10,
11, 12—execute them.

756
00:32:37.250 --> 00:32:39.170
I’m sure Human Rights
Watch reported

757
00:32:39.170 --> 00:32:41.020
that and protested it.

758
00:32:41.020 --> 00:32:42.460
And then the Russians
and the Syrians

759
00:32:42.460 --> 00:32:44.030
liberated the city.

760
00:32:44.030 --> 00:32:46.960
Now Palmyra is under siege again.

761
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:50.030
The Islamic State
may take control of the city.

762
00:32:50.030 --> 00:32:51.940
What is the United States
doing about it?

763
00:32:51.940 --> 00:32:53.210
This is what we should be asking.

764
00:32:53.210 --> 00:32:54.960
This is our country now,
not Russia.

765
00:32:54.960 --> 00:32:56.550
AMY GOODMAN: Ken Roth, your response?
KENNETH ROTH: Well, I’m glad—

766
00:32:56.550 --> 00:32:57.920
STEPHEN COHEN: Well, let—wait,
let me finish my point.

767
00:32:57.920 --> 00:32:59.940
You filibustered.
Let me just make my last point.

768
00:33:01.860 --> 00:33:04.000
He hasn’t mentioned Mosul,
by the way,

769
00:33:04.000 --> 00:33:06.360
and whether the same thing
is happening in Mosul.

770
00:33:06.360 --> 00:33:07.090
The American-led—

771
00:33:07.090 --> 00:33:07.730
KENNETH ROTH: I just
mentioned that, yeah.

772
00:33:07.730 --> 00:33:08.980
STEPHEN COHEN: One second, please.

773
00:33:09.730 --> 00:33:13.270
There are verifiable reports

774
00:33:13.270 --> 00:33:16.070
that jihadists in Mosul are fleeing,

775
00:33:16.900 --> 00:33:18.720
because of the Iraqi-American
war there.

776
00:33:18.720 --> 00:33:19.950
Where are they going?

777
00:33:20.500 --> 00:33:21.890
They’re going to Syria.

778
00:33:21.890 --> 00:33:24.440
The United States
has bombers in that area.

779
00:33:24.440 --> 00:33:26.740
They could stop these people
from going to Syria.

780
00:33:26.740 --> 00:33:29.090
They’re headed, I would guess,
toward Palmyra.

781
00:33:29.090 --> 00:33:31.730
Why is the United States
allowing these jihadists,

782
00:33:31.730 --> 00:33:33.660
these terrorists,
to go to Syria?

783
00:33:34.250 --> 00:33:36.190
Because, possibly,

784
00:33:36.190 --> 00:33:38.640
they want them to take back Palmyra

785
00:33:38.640 --> 00:33:40.230
from the Russians and the Syrians.

786
00:33:40.230 --> 00:33:41.680
Now, we don’t know if that’s true,

787
00:33:42.240 --> 00:33:45.230
but the American role
is highly suspect.

788
00:33:45.230 --> 00:33:47.100
And rather than sit here
and say the Russians

789
00:33:47.100 --> 00:33:48.660
are committing war crimes—because,

790
00:33:48.660 --> 00:33:51.120
look, one person’s war crime

791
00:33:51.120 --> 00:33:52.670
is another person’s liberation.

792
00:33:52.670 --> 00:33:55.440
On the front page of The New York
Times this very morning,

793
00:33:56.030 --> 00:33:58.390
there is a story by Anne
Barnard—by the way,

794
00:33:58.390 --> 00:34:00.380
Americans are not filing
from Syrian that;

795
00:34:00.380 --> 00:34:02.190
they’re filing from Beirut,

796
00:34:02.190 --> 00:34:04.850
so they’re depending
on different sources.

797
00:34:04.850 --> 00:34:06.470
But she makes an interesting point.

798
00:34:07.520 --> 00:34:10.000
She repeats what Mr. Roth says,

799
00:34:10.000 --> 00:34:12.890
that—about people being executed
by the Syrian Army.

800
00:34:12.890 --> 00:34:15.530
But she goes on to say
these can’t be verified.

801
00:34:15.530 --> 00:34:17.830
And then, two or three paragraphs later,

802
00:34:17.830 --> 00:34:22.150
she reports that people
trapped in Aleppo

803
00:34:22.150 --> 00:34:26.350
are welcoming the Syrian Army
with jubilation, she reports.

804
00:34:26.350 --> 00:34:28.240
So, even in The New York Times,

805
00:34:28.240 --> 00:34:30.320
which has not been very helpful
in these narratives,

806
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:32.030
you see the two narratives.

807
00:34:32.030 --> 00:34:34.410
And undoubtedly, part of what

808
00:34:34.410 --> 00:34:36.910
Mr. Roth said is absolutely true.

809
00:34:37.590 --> 00:34:39.660
Part of it is part of the position

810
00:34:39.660 --> 00:34:42.950
that he has taken more
generally about Russia

811
00:34:42.950 --> 00:34:44.900
being mainly responsible

812
00:34:44.900 --> 00:34:48.030
for virtually everything bad
that’s happening in the world.

813
00:34:48.030 --> 00:34:49.790
And I’ll just end by saying that,

814
00:34:49.790 --> 00:34:51.620
in my judgment,
the real threat

815
00:34:51.620 --> 00:34:54.230
to our national security
at this moment,

816
00:34:54.230 --> 00:34:57.400
number one, is not unfolding in Syria,

817
00:34:57.400 --> 00:35:00.300
but in Washington, D.C.
AMY GOODMAN: Ken Roth?

818
00:35:00.300 --> 00:35:01.670
KENNETH ROTH: Let’s get back
to reality here.

819
00:35:02.570 --> 00:35:07.500
The U.S. has been bombing ISIS
in both Mosul and in Raqqa.

820
00:35:08.410 --> 00:35:11.610
You know, Professor Cohen says
jihadists are fleeing Mosul.

821
00:35:11.610 --> 00:35:13.980
That was several weeks ago.
You know, since then,

822
00:35:13.980 --> 00:35:15.610
it’s actually been encircled,

823
00:35:15.610 --> 00:35:17.190
and so they’re not fleeing.

824
00:35:17.190 --> 00:35:20.780
But there’s no question that the U.S.
is actively bombing in Iraq.

825
00:35:20.780 --> 00:35:23.220
It’s backed by, you know,
government forces

826
00:35:23.220 --> 00:35:24.760
and Kurdish forces on the ground.

827
00:35:24.760 --> 00:35:28.060
And in Syria, it’s backed
by predominantly Kurdish forces

828
00:35:28.060 --> 00:35:29.770
with a Syrian component to it.

829
00:35:30.950 --> 00:35:33.590
You know, that war seems
to be progressing slowly.

830
00:35:34.180 --> 00:35:37.770
If you look at what the Russian role
in this has been, yes,

831
00:35:37.770 --> 00:35:42.310
you know, a year ago
Russia retook Palmyra from ISIS.

832
00:35:42.310 --> 00:35:45.060
These days, it’s been
focusing entirely on Aleppo,

833
00:35:45.060 --> 00:35:46.340
where there is no ISIS.

834
00:35:46.340 --> 00:35:48.020
If you look at—there’s a group

835
00:35:48.020 --> 00:35:49.590
called the Institute
for the Study of War,

836
00:35:49.590 --> 00:35:51.850
which puts out very interesting maps,

837
00:35:51.850 --> 00:35:54.370
basically once a month,
to show where the bombardment is.

838
00:35:54.370 --> 00:35:56.540
And so, they show
the Russian bombardment.

839
00:35:56.540 --> 00:35:58.940
And you can see all these
little explosives around Aleppo,

840
00:35:58.940 --> 00:36:02.300
and, you know, one or two
around Raqqa or Palmyra.

841
00:36:02.300 --> 00:36:03.890
I have tweeted that
on my Twitter account,

842
00:36:03.890 --> 00:36:05.260
if people want to find it.

843
00:36:05.260 --> 00:36:06.830
So, I mean, there’s no question

844
00:36:06.830 --> 00:36:10.910
that the focus of Russia
and Assad today has not been ISIS.

845
00:36:10.910 --> 00:36:12.700
They use the terrorist rhetoric,

846
00:36:12.700 --> 00:36:15.560
but they’ve been going after
the opponents of the Assad regime.

847
00:36:15.560 --> 00:36:17.830
Now, you know, that’s their choice.

848
00:36:17.830 --> 00:36:20.450
For me, the issue
is how they fight the war.

849
00:36:20.450 --> 00:36:21.970
Now, Professor Cohen says, oh, you know,

850
00:36:21.970 --> 00:36:24.880
I’m just making this up
that they’re targeting civilians.

851
00:36:24.880 --> 00:36:27.760
You know, look at the hospitals.
They’re a very good illustration.

852
00:36:27.760 --> 00:36:29.640
Until September 2015, you know,

853
00:36:29.640 --> 00:36:32.460
at a point where it was just
the Syrian Air Force in the skies,

854
00:36:32.460 --> 00:36:34.270
they were using these
so-called barrel bombs,

855
00:36:34.270 --> 00:36:36.110
which are very imprecise weapons.

856
00:36:36.110 --> 00:36:38.570
They’re essentially canisters
filled with explosives

857
00:36:38.570 --> 00:36:41.320
and shrapnel, which would tumble
to earth—very difficult to target.

858
00:36:41.910 --> 00:36:44.240
Since the Russians entered the war,

859
00:36:44.240 --> 00:36:45.720
they’ve got precision weapons.

860
00:36:45.720 --> 00:36:48.680
And so, you talk to the doctors
—and which I’ve done

861
00:36:48.680 --> 00:36:53.240
repeatedly—and they describe much
more precise hits on the hospital.

862
00:36:53.240 --> 00:36:54.630
And this is not a mistake.

863
00:36:54.630 --> 00:36:57.920
This is over and over and over
until the hospital is destroyed.

864
00:36:57.920 --> 00:36:59.250
There is no question

865
00:36:59.250 --> 00:37:01.380
that these hospitals
are being deliberately targeted.

866
00:37:01.380 --> 00:37:04.300
You can say, "Oh, fog of war,"
but last time I checked,

867
00:37:04.300 --> 00:37:05.740
the only people in the sky

868
00:37:05.740 --> 00:37:07.480
over Aleppo are the Russians

869
00:37:07.480 --> 00:37:08.870
and the Syrians.
There’s no one else.

870
00:37:08.870 --> 00:37:09.530
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going
to have to break,

871
00:37:09.530 --> 00:37:11.140
and then we’re going to come back
to this discussion

872
00:37:11.140 --> 00:37:12.920
and go to this issue that Professor

873
00:37:12.920 --> 00:37:14.210
Cohen has raised:

874
00:37:14.210 --> 00:37:17.220
Washington,
the Russia-U.S. relationship.

875
00:37:17.220 --> 00:37:20.040
We’re speaking with Professor
Stephen Cohen,

876
00:37:20.040 --> 00:37:22.210
has taught Russian studies

877
00:37:22.210 --> 00:37:24.900
at both New York University
and Princeton,

878
00:37:24.900 --> 00:37:27.050
now writes for The Nation,
and Kenneth Roth,

879
00:37:27.050 --> 00:37:28.920
who’s executive director
of Human Rights Watch.

880
00:37:28.920 --> 00:37:30.920
Stay with us.

881
00:37:32.360 --> 00:37:32.800
AMY GOODMAN: We turn now

882
00:37:32.800 --> 00:38:43.790
to

883
00:38:43.790 --> 00:38:45.100
take

884
00:38:45.100 --> 00:38:47.330
a broader look at U.S.-Russian relations

885
00:38:47.330 --> 00:38:49.440
in the wake of Donald Trump’s election.

886
00:38:49.440 --> 00:38:53.100
On Tuesday, Trump officially
nominated Rex Tillerson,

887
00:38:53.100 --> 00:38:55.830
chair and CEO of ExxonMobil,
to be secretary of state.

888
00:38:55.830 --> 00:38:58.670
Tillerson is known to have close ties
to Russian President Vladimir Putin,

889
00:38:58.670 --> 00:39:02.660
who awarded Tillerson the country’s
Order of Friendship decoration in 2013.

890
00:39:02.660 --> 00:39:04.800
One of the focuses
of the Senate confirmation

891
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:06.270
hearings will be Exxon’s

892
00:39:06.270 --> 00:39:09.220
$500 billion oil
exploration partnership

893
00:39:09.220 --> 00:39:10.740
with the Russian
government’s oil company,

894
00:39:10.740 --> 00:39:14.520
Rosneft, considered the largest
oil deal in history.

895
00:39:14.520 --> 00:39:16.330
The partnership can only go through

896
00:39:16.330 --> 00:39:19.050
if the U.S. lifts sanctions
against Russia,

897
00:39:19.050 --> 00:39:20.490
which the Obama administration

898
00:39:20.490 --> 00:39:23.900
imposed over Russia’s
intervention in Ukraine.

899
00:39:23.900 --> 00:39:26.050
The news of Tillerson’s nomination

900
00:39:26.050 --> 00:39:27.760
came just days after the CIA

901
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:29.210
accused Russia of meddling

902
00:39:29.210 --> 00:39:31.710
in the U.S. election
to help Donald Trump win.

903
00:39:31.710 --> 00:39:34.130
Trump has rejected
the CIA’s conclusion,

904
00:39:34.130 --> 00:39:35.760
decrying it as "ridiculous."

905
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:37.630
But President Obama
ordered a review

906
00:39:37.630 --> 00:39:39.190
of Russia’s role in influencing

907
00:39:39.190 --> 00:39:40.880
the presidential election.

908
00:39:40.880 --> 00:39:42.790
Still with us, Kenneth Roth,

909
00:39:42.790 --> 00:39:44.750
who is executive director
of Human Rights Watch,

910
00:39:44.750 --> 00:39:47.570
and Stephen Cohen, professor emeritus
of Russian studies

911
00:39:47.570 --> 00:39:50.530
and politics at New York University
and Princeton University.

912
00:39:51.130 --> 00:39:54.680
Stephen Cohen, start
with the elections.

913
00:39:54.680 --> 00:39:56.250
STEPHEN COHEN: Be more precise.

914
00:39:56.250 --> 00:39:57.600
AMY GOODMAN: What we understand,

915
00:39:57.600 --> 00:39:58.960
what the U.S. allegations

916
00:39:58.960 --> 00:40:03.480
are around Russian intervention
in the elections.

917
00:40:03.480 --> 00:40:06.550
The New York Times today
has a major top story.

918
00:40:06.550 --> 00:40:07.670
STEPHEN COHEN: Yeah.
AMY GOODMAN: "Hacking the Democrats:

919
00:40:07.670 --> 00:40:10.310
How the Russia Honed
Its Cyberpower and Trained

920
00:40:10.310 --> 00:40:11.570
It on an American Election."

921
00:40:12.510 --> 00:40:13.890
STEPHEN COHEN: I don’t know
where to begin.

922
00:40:13.890 --> 00:40:15.320
Let me context it,

923
00:40:15.320 --> 00:40:17.030
because when we first—when

924
00:40:17.030 --> 00:40:20.090
you first had me on,
February 2014,

925
00:40:20.690 --> 00:40:23.180
I said we were headed
for a new Cold War with Russia,

926
00:40:23.180 --> 00:40:25.450
and it would be more dangerous
than the last one.

927
00:40:25.450 --> 00:40:27.110
That has happened.

928
00:40:27.110 --> 00:40:31.230
We now have three Cold War fronts
that are fraught with hot war,

929
00:40:31.230 --> 00:40:34.080
the possibility of hot war
—the Baltic area,

930
00:40:34.080 --> 00:40:38.060
Ukraine and Syria—between
two nuclear powers.

931
00:40:38.060 --> 00:40:39.530
Things are very,
very dangerous.

932
00:40:40.160 --> 00:40:42.170
We desperately need
in this country

933
00:40:42.170 --> 00:40:45.210
a discussion of American policy
toward Russia.

934
00:40:45.210 --> 00:40:47.460
We can’t keep saying an untruth,

935
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:50.890
that this new Cold War
is solely the fault of Putin.

936
00:40:50.890 --> 00:40:53.020
We need to rethink our policy,

937
00:40:53.020 --> 00:40:54.250
at least over 20 years,

938
00:40:54.250 --> 00:40:57.140
but over the last five
or six years, toward Russia.

939
00:40:57.140 --> 00:40:59.990
That has been made
even more impossible now

940
00:41:00.640 --> 00:41:02.800
with this slurring of anybody

941
00:41:02.800 --> 00:41:05.220
who disagrees from the official
American position

942
00:41:05.220 --> 00:41:07.740
of how the Cold War arose.

943
00:41:08.270 --> 00:41:10.850
The slurring began
against people

944
00:41:10.850 --> 00:41:12.880
such as myself two
or three years ago.

945
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:14.560
We were called Putin apologists,

946
00:41:14.560 --> 00:41:17.210
Kremlin toadies, Kremlin clients.

947
00:41:17.210 --> 00:41:20.490
It moved on to even accuse
Henry Kissinger of that.

948
00:41:20.490 --> 00:41:22.460
And then, of course,
when Trump come along,

949
00:41:22.460 --> 00:41:25.310
this was a great
blessing to these people,

950
00:41:25.310 --> 00:41:27.220
who are essentially
neo-McCarthyites.

951
00:41:27.220 --> 00:41:29.430
It’s spread to The New York Times.

952
00:41:29.430 --> 00:41:32.200
So we have his allegation
that the Russians

953
00:41:32.200 --> 00:41:36.290
deliberately—word
Mr. Roth likes;

954
00:41:36.290 --> 00:41:39.540
I think there’s more accident
and miscalculation in history

955
00:41:39.540 --> 00:41:42.020
than he seems to think—deliberately,

956
00:41:42.020 --> 00:41:43.290
on the orders of Putin,

957
00:41:43.800 --> 00:41:46.090
hacked into the Democratic
National Committee,

958
00:41:46.090 --> 00:41:47.310
and not only,

959
00:41:47.310 --> 00:41:49.730
in order to—and here
the narrative

960
00:41:49.730 --> 00:41:50.940
gets a little puzzling.

961
00:41:50.940 --> 00:41:52.400
The original intention

962
00:41:52.400 --> 00:41:55.610
was simply to throw
American democracy into chaos,

963
00:41:58.140 --> 00:42:00.850
cast disrepute on
the American political system,

964
00:42:00.850 --> 00:42:02.480
but then they realized
that they could actually

965
00:42:02.480 --> 00:42:04.380
throw the election to Trump.

966
00:42:05.450 --> 00:42:07.020
Now we have The New York Times,

967
00:42:07.020 --> 00:42:09.100
what used to be a newspaper

968
00:42:09.100 --> 00:42:11.830
we thought would protect us
from these kinds of allegations,

969
00:42:11.830 --> 00:42:13.690
saying in an editorial

970
00:42:13.690 --> 00:42:15.710
that they did this,
the Russians did this,

971
00:42:15.710 --> 00:42:19.080
because Trump is surrounded
by Kremlin lackeys.

972
00:42:19.650 --> 00:42:23.240
This is an extremely serious
and reckless allegation,

973
00:42:23.240 --> 00:42:25.550
that he’s—our new president

974
00:42:25.550 --> 00:42:27.680
is surrounded by Kremlin lackeys.

975
00:42:27.680 --> 00:42:31.100
They don’t name names, but we know
how they mean—what they mean.

976
00:42:31.100 --> 00:42:32.930
And both the editorial page
of the Times

977
00:42:32.930 --> 00:42:34.710
and Paul Krugman,

978
00:42:34.710 --> 00:42:36.890
who, after all,
won a Nobel Prize

979
00:42:36.890 --> 00:42:39.820
and once was my colleague
at Princeton as an economist

980
00:42:39.820 --> 00:42:42.730
—it’s really astonishing
to see what he now writes—says

981
00:42:42.730 --> 00:42:45.950
that Trump won only because
of what the Russians did.

982
00:42:46.520 --> 00:42:48.490
What we have from the CIA,

983
00:42:49.020 --> 00:42:50.900
which itself is divided—we know

984
00:42:50.900 --> 00:42:54.040
that there are different opinions
in the CIA—we

985
00:42:54.040 --> 00:42:56.430
have yet to be presented
with a single fact.

986
00:42:56.430 --> 00:42:59.780
In this New York Times story,
which rehearses, basically,

987
00:42:59.780 --> 00:43:02.170
New York Times’ miscoverage
of this whole episode,

988
00:43:02.170 --> 00:43:03.760
they do the same thing.

989
00:43:03.760 --> 00:43:06.600
They are assessments,
which is judgment.

990
00:43:07.150 --> 00:43:08.720
They are allegations.

991
00:43:08.720 --> 00:43:12.650
But no one has produced
how they know this with facts.

992
00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:15.490
Did they tap into Russian cellphones?

993
00:43:15.490 --> 00:43:19.410
Do they have a mole
in Putin’s inner circle

994
00:43:19.410 --> 00:43:20.650
who’s telling them?

995
00:43:20.650 --> 00:43:22.780
Do they have satellite surveillance?

996
00:43:22.780 --> 00:43:24.840
We don’t know.

997
00:43:24.840 --> 00:43:27.350
Let me bring to your attention
something that’s not been reported.

998
00:43:27.350 --> 00:43:29.770
There’s a group
of very serious former

999
00:43:29.770 --> 00:43:33.210
American intelligence officers
called, I think,

1000
00:43:33.210 --> 00:43:35.530
Veteran Intelligence Officers
for Sanity.

1001
00:43:35.530 --> 00:43:37.140
I’m not sure.
AMY GOODMAN: VIPS

1002
00:43:37.140 --> 00:43:37.170
[Veteran Intelligence Professionals for 
Sanity].

1003
00:43:37.170 --> 00:43:40.870
STEPHEN COHEN: You know them.
And they issued a report yesterday.

1004
00:43:40.870 --> 00:43:44.090
I can’t judge it. I’m not
an intelligence person in that sense.

1005
00:43:44.090 --> 00:43:46.660
But they believe this
wasn’t hacking at all,

1006
00:43:46.660 --> 00:43:48.370
but leaking,

1007
00:43:48.370 --> 00:43:49.820
that somebody
leaked this stuff

1008
00:43:49.820 --> 00:43:52.770
from the Democratic—in other words,
somebody in the United States.

1009
00:43:52.770 --> 00:43:59.090
So, here we have no facts
presented by the CIA.

1010
00:43:59.090 --> 00:44:01.770
The FBI itself will not go along,

1011
00:44:01.770 --> 00:44:04.020
because it’s a fact organization.

1012
00:44:04.020 --> 00:44:08.350
It’s got to have evidence
that’s presentable in a court.

1013
00:44:08.350 --> 00:44:12.820
We have the possibility—I don’t know,
but it’s offered by credible people—that

1014
00:44:12.820 --> 00:44:15.280
this wasn’t hacking,
but leaking.

1015
00:44:15.280 --> 00:44:19.200
And the result is,
we’re having the new president

1016
00:44:19.200 --> 00:44:21.760
called essentially
a Kremlin lackey.

1017
00:44:22.260 --> 00:44:24.160
Senator McCain has said,

1018
00:44:24.160 --> 00:44:26.070
to his eternal discredit,

1019
00:44:26.070 --> 00:44:28.850
that Putin is a bully, a liar,

1020
00:44:28.850 --> 00:44:32.280
an invader of countries,

1021
00:44:32.280 --> 00:44:34.470
a man who’s determined to destroy

1022
00:44:34.470 --> 00:44:35.940
the American way of life,

1023
00:44:35.940 --> 00:44:39.240
and adds, if anybody doesn’t
agree with Senator McCain,

1024
00:44:39.240 --> 00:44:41.010
he’s a liar. So—

1025
00:44:41.010 --> 00:44:43.040
AMY GOODMAN: He also calls
Putin a killer. Do you agree?

1026
00:44:43.040 --> 00:44:44.410
STEPHEN COHEN: A killer, a murderer.
No, I do not.

1027
00:44:44.410 --> 00:44:47.080
Well, I mean, killer,
in warfare, yes.

1028
00:44:47.080 --> 00:44:50.780
He didn’t—oh, well, McCain
went on to say

1029
00:44:50.780 --> 00:44:54.420
that Putin had personally ordered
the killing of Boris Nemtsov,

1030
00:44:54.420 --> 00:44:57.570
a Russian opposition
who was shot down on a bridge.

1031
00:44:58.640 --> 00:45:00.670
No one in Moscow
takes that seriously,

1032
00:45:00.670 --> 00:45:02.020
not even Nemtsov’s family.

1033
00:45:02.020 --> 00:45:04.300
But the point we have here,
Amy—and this is

1034
00:45:04.300 --> 00:45:06.250
exceedingly dangerous—is

1035
00:45:06.250 --> 00:45:10.330
that we have a new
accepted practice of labeling

1036
00:45:10.330 --> 00:45:13.580
anyone who dissents
from American policy

1037
00:45:13.580 --> 00:45:16.290
toward Russia as a Kremlin apologist.

1038
00:45:16.290 --> 00:45:18.750
And I know very serious people

1039
00:45:18.750 --> 00:45:21.210
who have become afraid
to speak out now,

1040
00:45:21.210 --> 00:45:22.530
because they don’t
want to be labeled.

1041
00:45:22.530 --> 00:45:24.160
AMY GOODMAN: So, let’s get
Kenneth Roth’s response

1042
00:45:24.160 --> 00:45:26.640
and also to the Senate
Majority Leader Mitch McConnell,

1043
00:45:26.640 --> 00:45:29.260
House Speaker Paul Ryan—of course,

1044
00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:30.790
both Republicans—announcing

1045
00:45:30.790 --> 00:45:32.130
their support for an investigation

1046
00:45:32.130 --> 00:45:34.410
into whether Russia did
hack the elections.

1047
00:45:34.410 --> 00:45:36.220
KENNETH ROTH: Well, by all means,
there should be an investigation.

1048
00:45:36.220 --> 00:45:37.660
I mean, why not?
STEPHEN COHEN: Sure.

1049
00:45:37.660 --> 00:45:39.500
KENNETH ROTH: You’ve got
to be very careful,

1050
00:45:39.500 --> 00:45:41.170
though, when—you know,

1051
00:45:41.170 --> 00:45:43.100
when there are accusations
against Russia,

1052
00:45:43.100 --> 00:45:45.760
and the response
is "new Cold War,"

1053
00:45:45.760 --> 00:45:47.710
as if "Let’s not look into this.
Might be a new Cold War."

1054
00:45:48.400 --> 00:45:49.820
You know, let’s look
at the reality here.

1055
00:45:49.820 --> 00:45:52.490
In Syria—we’ve just
discussed this—there

1056
00:45:52.490 --> 00:45:53.920
has been Putin’s involvement

1057
00:45:53.920 --> 00:45:56.190
in the deliberate
targeting of civilians.

1058
00:45:56.190 --> 00:45:57.960
Ukraine, I mean, Amy,
you had made a major faux

1059
00:45:57.960 --> 00:46:00.650
pas by saying
that Russia invaded Ukraine.

1060
00:46:00.650 --> 00:46:03.760
You know, that was utterly denied
by the Kremlin for a long time.

1061
00:46:03.760 --> 00:46:05.400
It was the "little green men"
in Crimea,

1062
00:46:05.400 --> 00:46:07.170
until suddenly it was Russian forces.

1063
00:46:07.170 --> 00:46:10.210
It was, you know, just a spontaneous
uprising in eastern Ukraine,

1064
00:46:10.210 --> 00:46:12.450
until suddenly there were
Russian forces behind all that.

1065
00:46:12.450 --> 00:46:16.050
So, you know, the truth
is malleable when it’s useful.

1066
00:46:16.050 --> 00:46:18.670
And I think it’s—we should be
focusing on the reality.

1067
00:46:18.670 --> 00:46:20.320
Now, I have no special insight

1068
00:46:20.320 --> 00:46:22.650
into the hacking allegations.

1069
00:46:22.650 --> 00:46:24.710
By all means, there should
be an investigation.

1070
00:46:24.710 --> 00:46:28.890
And I do—I am concerned
about Trump’s nominee

1071
00:46:28.890 --> 00:46:30.490
for secretary of state,
because, you know,

1072
00:46:30.490 --> 00:46:31.970
here is a guy,
Rex Tillerson,

1073
00:46:31.970 --> 00:46:33.730
who has had a career

1074
00:46:34.270 --> 00:46:36.460
in cozying up to autocrats
around the world,

1075
00:46:36.460 --> 00:46:38.150
you know, in the name of Big Oil.

1076
00:46:38.150 --> 00:46:41.610
And he has developed
very good relations with Angola,

1077
00:46:41.610 --> 00:46:43.720
with Equatorial Guinea and with Putin.

1078
00:46:44.510 --> 00:46:47.230
And I worry about
whether a man like that,

1079
00:46:47.230 --> 00:46:49.670
who has put the interests
of Big Oil ahead

1080
00:46:49.670 --> 00:46:50.900
of everything else,

1081
00:46:50.900 --> 00:46:54.320
is going to be able
to pursue a foreign policy

1082
00:46:54.320 --> 00:46:55.620
where, in theory,

1083
00:46:55.620 --> 00:46:57.850
the promotion of human rights
was a major part of it.

1084
00:46:57.850 --> 00:46:59.850
One thing these autocrats
all have in common

1085
00:46:59.850 --> 00:47:01.760
is a general disregard
for human rights.

1086
00:47:01.760 --> 00:47:03.450
And is this the person
we want in charge

1087
00:47:03.450 --> 00:47:04.980
of our foreign policy?

1088
00:47:04.980 --> 00:47:07.120
AMY GOODMAN: And this issue of,

1089
00:47:07.120 --> 00:47:10.700
if he is chosen,

1090
00:47:10.700 --> 00:47:12.540
and Exxon’s desire

1091
00:47:12.540 --> 00:47:15.410
to have these sanctions lifted,

1092
00:47:15.410 --> 00:47:18.780
the largest oil deal in not just U.S.,

1093
00:47:18.780 --> 00:47:20.510
but in world, history,

1094
00:47:20.510 --> 00:47:21.910
if these sanctions are lifted,

1095
00:47:21.910 --> 00:47:23.490
would benefit his company.

1096
00:47:23.490 --> 00:47:26.390
KENNETH ROTH: Well, now, clearly,
ExxonMobil didn’t like the sanctions

1097
00:47:26.390 --> 00:47:27.680
that were imposed on Russia

1098
00:47:27.680 --> 00:47:30.790
because of the adventurism
of these "little green men"

1099
00:47:30.790 --> 00:47:33.630
that have nothing to do
with the Kremlin in eastern Ukraine.

1100
00:47:33.630 --> 00:47:35.870
And ExxonMobil fought that.

1101
00:47:35.870 --> 00:47:37.800
Now, this is, you know,
not a human rights issue.

1102
00:47:37.800 --> 00:47:40.010
It’s not something that Human Rights
Watch has taken a position on.

1103
00:47:40.010 --> 00:47:42.630
But it does raise questions about,

1104
00:47:42.630 --> 00:47:45.300
you know, what is the primary
concern of Rex Tillerson.

1105
00:47:45.300 --> 00:47:46.760
And can he really,
after having spent

1106
00:47:46.760 --> 00:47:49.830
his entire career at Big Oil,

1107
00:47:49.830 --> 00:47:52.710
his entire career,
professional life, at ExxonMobil,

1108
00:47:52.710 --> 00:47:55.550
suddenly switch hats
and pursue other values

1109
00:47:55.550 --> 00:47:56.790
as the head of the State Department?

1110
00:47:56.790 --> 00:47:58.570
AMY GOODMAN: Then this issue
that Professor

1111
00:47:58.570 --> 00:48:00.820
Cohen raises of a new McCarthyism?

1112
00:48:01.350 --> 00:48:02.590
KENNETH ROTH: Well,
that’s another way of saying,

1113
00:48:02.590 --> 00:48:04.110
you know, a new Cold War.

1114
00:48:04.110 --> 00:48:06.000
You know, just because
you start accusing people

1115
00:48:06.000 --> 00:48:08.700
who say bad things
about Putin of McCarthyism

1116
00:48:08.700 --> 00:48:09.890
doesn’t mean it’s not true.

1117
00:48:09.890 --> 00:48:12.120
I mean, you know,
these big labels don’t help.

1118
00:48:12.120 --> 00:48:13.440
Let’s look at the facts.

1119
00:48:13.440 --> 00:48:15.740
You know, who actually
did act in Ukraine?

1120
00:48:15.740 --> 00:48:18.060
You know, was it really
just a spontaneous uprising,

1121
00:48:18.060 --> 00:48:19.650
or was there
a Russian role in this?

1122
00:48:19.650 --> 00:48:23.390
You know, who is providing
the precision weapons in Syria

1123
00:48:23.390 --> 00:48:24.800
that have been targeting civilians

1124
00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:26.450
and civilian institutions?

1125
00:48:26.450 --> 00:48:28.670
Nobody else has an air force
like that other than Russia.

1126
00:48:28.670 --> 00:48:30.700
Nobody even pretends
that there are planes

1127
00:48:30.700 --> 00:48:31.950
up there above Aleppo

1128
00:48:31.950 --> 00:48:34.150
other than Russia,
with their Syrian allies.

1129
00:48:34.150 --> 00:48:36.170
So, you know, you’ve got to get
down to the reality here.

1130
00:48:36.170 --> 00:48:38.100
And I don’t think throwing around

1131
00:48:38.100 --> 00:48:39.700
these names
of "new Cold War"

1132
00:48:39.700 --> 00:48:42.710
or accusing people
of McCarthyite tactics

1133
00:48:42.710 --> 00:48:44.770
has anything to do with this.
Let’s get to the facts.

1134
00:48:44.770 --> 00:48:46.070
And the facts are pretty
ugly right now.

1135
00:48:46.600 --> 00:48:48.480
AMY GOODMAN: Very quickly, I presume,

1136
00:48:48.480 --> 00:48:50.130
Professor Cohen,

1137
00:48:50.130 --> 00:48:52.630
that you have some concerns
about Donald Trump.

1138
00:48:52.630 --> 00:48:56.950
Are any of them around
his relationship

1139
00:48:56.950 --> 00:49:00.740
with or the—the relationship

1140
00:49:00.740 --> 00:49:06.210
with or his professed
admiration for Putin?

1141
00:49:06.840 --> 00:49:09.980
STEPHEN COHEN: Well, I’m kind
of startled by a number things

1142
00:49:09.980 --> 00:49:11.290
that Mr. Roth said.

1143
00:49:11.290 --> 00:49:14.790
And I don’t like the way
he dismisses everything I say

1144
00:49:14.790 --> 00:49:18.450
as kind of a way of avoiding it

1145
00:49:18.450 --> 00:49:20.930
by referring to a new Cold War

1146
00:49:20.930 --> 00:49:22.550
and what happened in Ukraine.

1147
00:49:22.550 --> 00:49:25.050
I don’t think he really knows
what happened in Ukraine,

1148
00:49:25.050 --> 00:49:28.380
but that could be a separate
discussion between us.

1149
00:49:28.380 --> 00:49:30.360
And then he goes back to Syria.

1150
00:49:30.360 --> 00:49:32.060
But what surprises me is,

1151
00:49:32.060 --> 00:49:35.200
is that a man
who represents human rights,

1152
00:49:35.840 --> 00:49:38.120
one of which is freedom of speech,

1153
00:49:39.270 --> 00:49:42.140
or, as Roosevelt would say,
freedom of fear of speech,

1154
00:49:42.140 --> 00:49:43.830
of being afraid to speak out,

1155
00:49:43.830 --> 00:49:46.140
isn’t worried about
this new neo-McCarthyism

1156
00:49:46.830 --> 00:49:49.050
and isn’t on my side on this,

1157
00:49:49.050 --> 00:49:50.680
that we should stop this.

1158
00:49:50.680 --> 00:49:52.410
And he’s kind of—and let me finish.

1159
00:49:52.410 --> 00:49:54.110
He’s kind of mangled it.

1160
00:49:54.110 --> 00:49:59.220
I didn’t say that anybody
who says something bad about Putin

1161
00:49:59.220 --> 00:50:02.830
is the target of this neo-McCarthyism.

1162
00:50:02.830 --> 00:50:04.070
What I said was,

1163
00:50:04.070 --> 00:50:07.970
anybody who dissents
from the orthodox account

1164
00:50:07.970 --> 00:50:10.790
of how we ended up
in this new Cold War—and

1165
00:50:10.790 --> 00:50:13.520
if Mr. Roth thinks
it’s not a new Cold War,

1166
00:50:13.520 --> 00:50:14.870
he’s welcome to that thought,

1167
00:50:14.870 --> 00:50:17.650
though he’ll miss
all the attendant dangers.

1168
00:50:17.650 --> 00:50:19.600
It’s the people who speak out

1169
00:50:19.600 --> 00:50:22.470
who are being
called apologists for Putin,

1170
00:50:22.470 --> 00:50:24.420
and it’s chilling debate here.

1171
00:50:24.420 --> 00:50:26.300
So let me make the point
I began at the beginning.

1172
00:50:26.300 --> 00:50:27.100
AMY GOODMAN: We have 30 seconds.

1173
00:50:27.100 --> 00:50:28.570
STEPHEN COHEN: Only, and I can
say it in 10.

1174
00:50:28.570 --> 00:50:31.650
We’re in the most dangerous
confrontation with Russia

1175
00:50:31.650 --> 00:50:33.490
since the Cuban missile crisis.

1176
00:50:33.490 --> 00:50:35.170
It needs to be discussed.

1177
00:50:35.170 --> 00:50:37.440
And at the moment, it can’t be discussed

1178
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:41.100
because of these charges
that everybody is a client of Putin

1179
00:50:41.100 --> 00:50:43.890
who disagrees
with the mainstream opinion.

1180
00:50:43.890 --> 00:50:47.020
And it’s coming from the Senate.
It’s coming from The New York Times.

1181
00:50:47.020 --> 00:50:51.580
It’s coming from—and I wish we had
a second to say what the motives are.

1182
00:50:51.580 --> 00:50:55.780
But one motive is to keep Trump
from going to the White House.

1183
00:50:55.780 --> 00:50:59.260
Another is to delegitimize him
before he gets there.

1184
00:50:59.260 --> 00:51:02.990
But the main motive—and you can hear it
clearly—is Trump

1185
00:51:02.990 --> 00:51:05.570
has said he wants
cooperation with Russia,

1186
00:51:05.570 --> 00:51:09.550
and the war party here that’s against
that is determined to stop it.

1187
00:51:09.550 --> 00:51:11.910
And the way you do it is level against

1188
00:51:11.910 --> 00:51:14.570
Putin the kinds of accusations

1189
00:51:15.090 --> 00:51:18.280
that Mr. Roth uncritically levels,
so the rest of us will say

1190
00:51:18.280 --> 00:51:20.580
we can’t have
any cooperations with Putin

1191
00:51:20.580 --> 00:51:23.290
because he’s a war criminal.
AMY GOODMAN: Twenty seconds, Ken Roth.

1192
00:51:23.290 --> 00:51:24.960
KENNETH ROTH: Well, I’m all for talking

1193
00:51:24.960 --> 00:51:26.660
with Putin,
trying to cooperate with him.

1194
00:51:26.660 --> 00:51:29.050
In fact, my New York Review piece argues

1195
00:51:29.050 --> 00:51:32.540
that the key to Syria is for Trump
to put pressure on Putin,

1196
00:51:32.540 --> 00:51:35.500
because Assad wouldn’t be able
to commit these atrocities

1197
00:51:35.500 --> 00:51:36.960
without Putin’s active support.
So, I’m—

1198
00:51:36.960 --> 00:51:37.780
STEPHEN COHEN: That’s not
talking with Putin;

1199
00:51:37.780 --> 00:51:39.070
that’s putting pressure on Putin.

1200
00:51:39.070 --> 00:51:40.160
KENNETH ROTH: And talk to him, too.

1201
00:51:40.160 --> 00:51:42.680
And we never objected
to the ongoing debate,

1202
00:51:42.680 --> 00:51:44.100
the ongoing conversation,

1203
00:51:44.100 --> 00:51:46.480
but it shouldn’t be in lieu
of the kind of pressure,

1204
00:51:46.480 --> 00:51:48.180
which is all that
Putin listens to these days.

1205
00:51:48.180 --> 00:51:50.240
STEPHEN COHEN: Oh, for God’s sake.
That’s all he listens to.

1206
00:51:50.240 --> 00:51:51.910
And you base that on what?

1207
00:51:51.910 --> 00:51:53.340
Your careful study—
KENNETH ROTH: I’m watching—I’ve watched—

1208
00:51:53.340 --> 00:51:54.890
STEPHEN COHEN: Your careful study
of Putin?

1209
00:51:54.890 --> 00:51:56.730
Your following of Russian politics?
KENNETH ROTH: I’ve watched two—yeah,

1210
00:51:56.730 --> 00:51:57.640
I’ve watched—let me answer.
Let me answer.

1211
00:51:57.640 --> 00:51:59.000
STEPHEN COHEN: Look, at some point,
let’s be fact-based, OK?

1212
00:51:59.000 --> 00:52:00.620
KENNETH ROTH: I’ve watched him
for two years—

1213
00:52:00.620 --> 00:52:01.420
STEPHEN COHEN: You simply don’t
know what you’re—oh.

1214
00:52:01.420 --> 00:52:03.000
KENNETH ROTH: —talk and talk
and talk with Kerry and Lavrov.

1215
00:52:03.000 --> 00:52:03.380
STEPHEN COHEN: Oh, oh.

1216
00:52:03.380 --> 00:52:05.320
KENNETH ROTH: And he just
continued with the atrocities.

1217
00:52:05.320 --> 00:52:06.860
STEPHEN COHEN: You watched it,
or you listened to what he said?

1218
00:52:06.860 --> 00:52:07.420
Or you listened—you read it?

1219
00:52:07.420 --> 00:52:09.120
KENNETH ROTH: The only way to ratchet up
—the only way he has made any—

1220
00:52:09.120 --> 00:52:09.600
STEPHEN COHEN: Oh, for God’s sake.

1221
00:52:09.600 --> 00:52:11.430
KENNETH ROTH: —change in Syria
is when the pressure mounts.

1222
00:52:11.430 --> 00:52:11.930
STEPHEN COHEN: We’re back to Syria now.

1223
00:52:11.930 --> 00:52:13.420
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to
have to leave it there.

1224
00:52:13.420 --> 00:52:15.460
We’re going to have to leave it there,
but I want to thank you both

1225
00:52:15.460 --> 00:52:17.380
for being a part of this discussion.

1226
00:52:17.380 --> 00:52:21.630
Stephen Cohen is professor
emeritus of Russian studies

1227
00:52:21.630 --> 00:52:24.060
and politics at Princeton
and New York University.

1228
00:52:24.060 --> 00:52:25.880
And Kenneth
Roth is executive director

1229
00:52:25.880 --> 00:52:27.850
of Human Rights Watch.
This is Democracy Now!

1230
00:52:27.850 --> 00:52:29.830
When we come back,
we look at Trump’s

1231
00:52:29.830 --> 00:52:32.980
pick to be the secretary
of energy, Rick Perry.

1232
00:52:32.980 --> 00:52:34.980
Stay with us.

1233
00:53:40.780 --> 00:53:44.620
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!,

1234
00:53:44.620 --> 00:53:47.260
democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

1235
00:53:47.260 --> 00:53:49.550
I’m Amy Goodman.

1236
00:53:49.550 --> 00:53:51.770
Donald Trump has chosen
former Texas Governor

1237
00:53:51.770 --> 00:53:53.360
Rick Perry to be energy secretary.

1238
00:53:53.360 --> 00:53:54.920
Governor Perry famously attempted

1239
00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:58.490
to propose to abolish
the Energy Department—but

1240
00:53:58.490 --> 00:54:01.290
then couldn’t remember
the name of the agency

1241
00:54:01.290 --> 00:54:04.930
during a live televised
presidential debate in 2011.

1242
00:54:06.610 --> 00:54:08.240
GOV. RICK PERRY: It’s three agencies
of government,

1243
00:54:08.240 --> 00:54:10.860
when I get there,
that are gone: Commerce,

1244
00:54:10.860 --> 00:54:14.590
Education and the—what’s
the third one there?

1245
00:54:14.590 --> 00:54:15.660
Let’s see.

1246
00:54:15.660 --> 00:54:17.030
JOHN HARWOOD: But you can’t
name the third one?

1247
00:54:17.770 --> 00:54:19.490
GOV. RICK PERRY: The third agency
of government I would—

1248
00:54:19.490 --> 00:54:20.640
JOHN HARWOOD: Yes.
GOV. RICK PERRY: —I would do away with,

1249
00:54:20.640 --> 00:54:22.580
the Education,

1250
00:54:22.580 --> 00:54:24.170
the, uhhh,

1251
00:54:24.950 --> 00:54:27.840
Commerce and,
let’s see.

1252
00:54:28.690 --> 00:54:30.110
I can’t.

1253
00:54:30.110 --> 00:54:32.210
AMY GOODMAN: That was Rick Perry
during the televised

1254
00:54:32.210 --> 00:54:33.820
presidential debate in 2011.

1255
00:54:33.820 --> 00:54:35.910
He later told reporters
the agency he had forgotten

1256
00:54:35.910 --> 00:54:37.570
was the Energy Department.

1257
00:54:37.570 --> 00:54:40.420
Well, Governor Perry has deep ties
to the fossil fuel industry,

1258
00:54:40.420 --> 00:54:42.040
including serving on
the corporate boards

1259
00:54:42.040 --> 00:54:44.710
of both Energy Transfer Partners
and Sunoco Logistics,

1260
00:54:44.710 --> 00:54:47.040
two companies behind
the Dakota Access pipeline.

1261
00:54:47.040 --> 00:54:50.450
Both companies are owned
by Texas billionaire Kelcy Warren.

1262
00:54:50.450 --> 00:54:52.790
Perry joined the board
of Energy Transfer Partners

1263
00:54:52.790 --> 00:54:54.400
in February 2015,

1264
00:54:54.400 --> 00:54:56.840
two weeks after he left office.

1265
00:54:56.840 --> 00:54:59.680
That year,
he received $365,000

1266
00:54:59.680 --> 00:55:01.110
from Warren’s companies.

1267
00:55:01.110 --> 00:55:03.640
In 2015, Kelcy Warren also served

1268
00:55:03.640 --> 00:55:05.940
as Rick Perry’s campaign finance chair

1269
00:55:05.940 --> 00:55:07.660
during Perry’s presidential bid

1270
00:55:07.660 --> 00:55:11.300
and donated $6 million
to pro-Perry super PACs.

1271
00:55:11.300 --> 00:55:13.810
For more, we’re going to Austin, Texas.
We’re joined by two guests.

1272
00:55:13.810 --> 00:55:16.520
Forrest Wilder is editor-in-chief
of The Texas Observer.

1273
00:55:16.520 --> 00:55:18.630
And Kiah Collier is
the energy and environment

1274
00:55:18.630 --> 00:55:20.790
reporter for The Texas Tribune.

1275
00:55:20.790 --> 00:55:22.770
Her recent article is headlined

1276
00:55:22.770 --> 00:55:25.930
"Rick Perry’s energy legacy
is more complicated than you think."

1277
00:55:25.930 --> 00:55:27.620
We welcome you both
to Democracy Now!

1278
00:55:27.620 --> 00:55:29.270
Let’s start with Forrest Wilder.

1279
00:55:29.840 --> 00:55:34.040
Your assessment of Rick Perry,

1280
00:55:34.040 --> 00:55:36.320
the former governor of Texas,

1281
00:55:36.320 --> 00:55:39.050
to be the head of—wait,
what was the name of the

1282
00:55:39.050 --> 00:55:40.890
department?—the
Energy Department.

1283
00:55:40.890 --> 00:55:42.290
Well, that’s what
he couldn’t remember

1284
00:55:42.290 --> 00:55:44.890
when he said he wanted
to abolish it in 2011.

1285
00:55:44.890 --> 00:55:48.740
Your thoughts
on this pick, Forrest?

1286
00:55:49.720 --> 00:55:53.240
FORREST WILDER: Well, I think
a lot of us were astonished.

1287
00:55:53.240 --> 00:55:55.570
There’s been a lot
of remarkable

1288
00:55:55.570 --> 00:55:58.710
political news
in the Trump transition,

1289
00:55:58.710 --> 00:56:03.050
but picking the guy
who forgot the department

1290
00:56:03.050 --> 00:56:07.250
that he wanted to abolish
is pretty incredible.

1291
00:56:08.190 --> 00:56:11.330
I assume that Perry
doesn’t now want

1292
00:56:11.330 --> 00:56:14.590
to abolish
the Energy Department

1293
00:56:14.590 --> 00:56:16.970
that he’s now probably
going to head.

1294
00:56:18.450 --> 00:56:20.460
I’m sort of scratching my head,

1295
00:56:20.460 --> 00:56:25.150
I think, a little bit about
what Trump sees in Rick Perry.

1296
00:56:26.320 --> 00:56:29.930
As you noted, he has served
on these corporate boards

1297
00:56:29.930 --> 00:56:31.500
after his governorship,

1298
00:56:31.500 --> 00:56:33.670
although—you know, it’s Texas,

1299
00:56:33.670 --> 00:56:35.740
and the oil and gas
business is huge here,

1300
00:56:35.740 --> 00:56:38.580
and politicians often cash out

1301
00:56:38.580 --> 00:56:40.000
when they leave office.

1302
00:56:40.860 --> 00:56:43.290
He was governor of Texas,
of course, for 14 years,

1303
00:56:43.290 --> 00:56:47.190
the longest-serving
governor in Texas history.

1304
00:56:48.320 --> 00:56:49.840
But, you know, Rick Perry

1305
00:56:49.840 --> 00:56:51.840
is not exactly
a details guy.

1306
00:56:51.840 --> 00:56:54.080
He’s not a policy guy.

1307
00:56:54.920 --> 00:56:57.030
Though he was in office
for a really long time,

1308
00:56:57.030 --> 00:56:59.430
actually, his record
of accomplishment,

1309
00:56:59.430 --> 00:57:01.180
in terms of really
big initiatives

1310
00:57:01.180 --> 00:57:03.370
that he was responsible for,

1311
00:57:03.370 --> 00:57:06.230
that you can certainly say
that Rick Perry’s imprimatur was

1312
00:57:06.230 --> 00:57:08.610
on this program or this policy,

1313
00:57:08.610 --> 00:57:10.480
is actually really quite short.

1314
00:57:10.480 --> 00:57:12.300
In fact, I was thinking back

1315
00:57:12.300 --> 00:57:15.480
about what were his major proposals,

1316
00:57:15.480 --> 00:57:18.190
and most of what
I thought of were

1317
00:57:18.190 --> 00:57:21.530
basically kind of
pretty big failures.

1318
00:57:21.530 --> 00:57:23.670
Some of them won’t be known
outside of Texas,

1319
00:57:23.670 --> 00:57:25.250
but here they were very big deals.

1320
00:57:25.250 --> 00:57:27.240
For example,
the Trans-Texas Corridor

1321
00:57:27.240 --> 00:57:29.910
was this proposal
to build this very expensive

1322
00:57:31.300 --> 00:57:33.020
network
of toll roads

1323
00:57:33.020 --> 00:57:36.120
and highways that involved
public-private partnerships.

1324
00:57:36.120 --> 00:57:37.440
It was basically
to help facilitate trade.

1325
00:57:37.440 --> 00:57:39.010
AMY GOODMAN: Forrest, I’m going
to interrupt, because I want to give

1326
00:57:39.010 --> 00:57:40.200
Kiah a chance to respond.
FORREST WILDER: Sure.

1327
00:57:40.200 --> 00:57:41.930
AMY GOODMAN: And then we’re going
to continue this discussion

1328
00:57:41.930 --> 00:57:43.580
and post it online.
Kiah Collier,

1329
00:57:44.420 --> 00:57:47.710
if you could talk
about Rick Perry’s

1330
00:57:47.710 --> 00:57:49.650
close ties to Kelcy Warren,

1331
00:57:49.650 --> 00:57:53.120
certainly the center of a massive
national controversy

1332
00:57:53.120 --> 00:57:55.270
around the Dakota
Access pipeline?

1333
00:57:56.560 --> 00:57:58.010
KIAH COLLIER: Right.
Perry, I think,

1334
00:57:58.010 --> 00:58:00.330
has been pretty close
to Warren both

1335
00:58:00.330 --> 00:58:03.110
personally and professionally
for a long time.

1336
00:58:03.110 --> 00:58:05.790
Kelcy Warren has given him
a ton of money,

1337
00:58:05.790 --> 00:58:06.990
a ton of political support.

1338
00:58:06.990 --> 00:58:11.180
And when he stepped down
as Texas governor in 2015,

1339
00:58:11.180 --> 00:58:13.630
he was shortly thereafter
appointed to the board

1340
00:58:13.630 --> 00:58:15.880
of Energy Transfer Partners.

1341
00:58:15.880 --> 00:58:17.360
So, you know,

1342
00:58:17.360 --> 00:58:21.340
we explored those kind
of conflicts of interest,

1343
00:58:21.340 --> 00:58:23.180
I guess, in our piece.

1344
00:58:23.180 --> 00:58:25.150
And experts told us, you know,

1345
00:58:25.150 --> 00:58:26.890
he’s probably going
to have to step down

1346
00:58:26.890 --> 00:58:28.260
from his board position

1347
00:58:28.260 --> 00:58:31.110
on Energy Transfer Partners

1348
00:58:31.110 --> 00:58:34.640
if he is confirmed to head
the Energy Department.

1349
00:58:34.640 --> 00:58:35.760
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re going
to leave it there

1350
00:58:35.760 --> 00:58:37.440
and then do Part
2 of this discussion

1351
00:58:37.440 --> 00:58:39.290
and post it at democracynow.org.

1352
00:58:39.290 --> 00:58:41.100
Kiah Collier of The Texas Tribune

1353
00:58:41.100 --> 00:58:43.610
and Forrest Wilder
of The Texas Observer,

1354
00:58:43.610 --> 00:58:45.800
thank you so much for joining us.