WEBVTT

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From Pacifica,

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this is Democracy Now!

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Right now we’re not getting
along with Russia at all.

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We may be at an all-time low

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in terms of relationship with Russia.

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President Trump warns relations

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with Russia are deteriorating,

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as the U.S. accuses
Moscow of covering up

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the Syrian government’s alleged role

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in last week’s chemical attack

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that killed 87 people.

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Meanwhile, Russia is accusing

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the U.S. of breaking international law

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by launching airstrikes
against a Syrian air base.

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We’ll get the latest.

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Then, calls are mounting
for White House Press Secretary

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Sean Spicer to resign over
comments he made about Hitler.

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Someone as despicable as Hitler,

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who didn’t even sink to the—to
using chemical weapons.

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... He was not using the gas

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on his own people
the same way that Ashad

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[sic]
is going.

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We’ll get response

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from the Anne Frank Center
for Mutual Respect.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,

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democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

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I’m Amy Goodman.

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Secretary of State Rex Tillerson

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has wrapped up a visit to Moscow,

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where he met with Russian President

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Vladimir Putin and Russian
Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

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The meetings come at a time
of increased tension

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between Washington and Moscow.

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On Wednesday during
a press conference

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with NATO’s secretary general,

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President Trump said relations
with Russia had

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reached a new low point.

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President Donald Trump:
"It would be wonderful,

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as we were discussing
just a little while ago,

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if NATO and our country
could get along with Russia.

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Right now we’re not getting
along with Russia at all.

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We may be at an all-time low

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in terms of relationship with Russia.

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This has built
for a long period of time."

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Trump’s comments came a day

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after the White House
accused Russia of attempting

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to cover up the role
of the Syrian government

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in the recent chemical attack
in Syria that killed 87 people.

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Russia has rejected the claim,

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saying the U.S. has been too quick

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to blame Syrian President
Bashar al-Assad.

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At the United Nations,

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Russia blocked
a Security Council

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resolution Wednesday to denounce
the chemical attack

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and to call on Assad’s
government to cooperate

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with an international probe.

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Meanwhile, Russia has
accused the United States

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of violating international law

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by bombing a Syrian air
base last week.

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The rising tension with Russia

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came as President Trump
on Wednesday reversed

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his long-running criticism of NATO,

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saying in a joint
press conference

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with NATO’s secretary general

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that he no longer believes

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the military alliance
is "obsolete."

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President Donald Trump:
"The secretary general

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and I had a productive discussion

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about what more NATO can do
in the fight against terrorism.

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I complained about that
a long time ago,

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and they made a change,

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and now they do fight terrorism.

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I said it was obsolete.

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It’s no longer obsolete."

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On the campaign trail,
Trump described NATO as "obsolete"

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and vowed to reconsider
U.S. membership

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unless other NATO members

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increased their share
of military spending.

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Donald Trump’s
adult son Eric Trump

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has cited mounting tensions

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between the U.S. and Russia as evidence

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that top Trump associates
weren’t colluding with Russia

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to sway the 2016 election.

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In an interview
with The Telegraph,

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Eric Trump said,

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"If there was anything
that Syria did,

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it was to validate the fact
that there is no Russia tie."

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Eric Trump’s comment came as
the Associated Press

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reported Donald Trump’s

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former campaign manager,
Paul Manafort,

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will register retroactively

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with the Justice Department
as a foreign agent,

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for lobbying he carried out

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between 2012 and 2014 on behalf

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of a pro-Russia Ukrainian
think tank.

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The revelation came a day
after The Washington Post

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reported the FBI obtained a secret

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FISA warrant to monitor

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the communications of Trump

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adviser Carter Page last summer,

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arguing Carter was acting
as a Russian agent.

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President Trump said he ordered
last week’s Tomahawk missile

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attack over a dessert of chocolate cake

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with visiting Chinese
President Xi Jinping.

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Trump made the remarks
in an interview broadcast

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Wednesday by Fox Business.

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President Donald Trump:
"We had finished dinner.

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We’re now having dessert.

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And we had the most
beautiful piece of chocolate cake

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that you’ve ever seen,

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and President Xi was enjoying it.

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… So what happens is, I said,

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’We’ve just launched 59 missiles,
heading to Iraq.’"

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Maria Bartiromo: "Wait.
Headed to Syria."

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President Donald Trump:
"Yes, heading toward Syria.

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'And I want you to know that.'"

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President Trump’s comment came

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as he reversed his long-running campaign

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pledge to brand China

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as a currency manipulator.

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The U-turn came as Trump

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sought President Xi’s help

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in pressuring North Korea
over its nuclear program.

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U.S. intelligence officials said

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Wednesday satellite photos show

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North Korea is making preparations

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for what could be
its sixth nuclear weapons test.

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President Donald Trump signaled

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Wednesday he’s souring
on his chief strategist,

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Steve Bannon.

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In an interview
with the New York Post,

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Trump said,

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"I like Steve,
but you have to remember

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he was not involved
in my campaign until very late.

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... I’m my own strategist and it

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wasn’t like I was going
to change strategies

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because I was facing
crooked Hillary."

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Trump also confirmed a reported rift

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between Bannon
and Trump’s son-in-law

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and senior adviser, Jared Kushner.

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According to The Daily Beast,

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the conflict became so fierce

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that at one point Bannon
called Kushner a "globalist."

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Bannon is the former editor
of the website Breitbart.com,

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which frequently
publishes racist,

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sexist and white
supremacist views.

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The United Nations
warned Wednesday

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the risk of mass starvation

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is rapidly rising
in Yemen, Nigeria,

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Somalia and South Sudan.

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U.N. spokesperson Adrian
Edwards said

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a preventable humanitarian
catastrophe is

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"fast becoming an inevitability."

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Adrian Edwards:
"The risk of mass deaths

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from starvation among populations

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in the Horn of Africa,

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in Yemen and Nigeria,
is growing.

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This warning is in light

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of the drought situations
that you’ve been hearing about,

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that are also affecting many
neighboring countries,

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and a funding shortfall
that has become so severe

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that an avoidable humanitarian
crisis in the region,

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possibly worse than that,

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in case of the Horn
of Africa,

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of 2011,

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is fast becoming
an inevitability."

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Earlier this year,
the U.N. appealed

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for $4.4 billion
to prevent famine,

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but has received only about
one-fifth of those funds.

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The U.N. warning
came as a group of 55

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U.S. lawmakers wrote to Donald Trump

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warning the president
needs congressional approval

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if he seeks to expand U.S. support

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for the Saudi-led bombing campaign
and blockade of Yemen.

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White House Press Secretary

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Sean Spicer continued
an apology tour Wednesday,

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after he tried to drum up support

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for more U.S. military attacks
against the Syrian regime

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by comparing President
Bashar al-Assad to Adolf Hitler

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and falsely claiming Hitler
never used chemical weapons.

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One of Spicer’s apologies
came at a public forum

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in Washington, D.C.,

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with former Fox News—now

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MSNBC—personality
Greta Van Susteren.

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Press Secretary Sean Spicer:
"I made a mistake.

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There’s no either way—I mean,
there’s no other way to say it.

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I got into a topic
that I shouldn’t have.

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And—and I screwed up."

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Meanwhile, the office
of billionaire casino

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magnate Sheldon Adelson

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said that Spicer called Adelson

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to apologize for his comments.

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Last year, Adelson spent
tens of millions of dollars

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to support Trump
and Republican campaigns.

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There’s no indication Spicer

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called Jewish organizations

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or Jewish members
of Congress to apologize.

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There have been widespread calls
for Spicer to step down.

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Steven Goldstein,
the executive director

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of the Anne Frank Center
for Mutual Respect,

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said Spicer is guilty
of Holocaust denial

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and should be fired at once.

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We’ll have more on Sean Spicer

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with Steven Goldstein after headlines.

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In Kansas, Republican Ron Estes

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won a congressional seat
in a special election Tuesday

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in a surprisingly close vote

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for a heavily
conservative district.

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Estes beat Democratic
challenger James Thompson

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by a slim 53-46 margin,

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in a district that Donald Trump

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carried by 27 percentage
points last November.

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The narrow victory
could signal trouble for Republicans

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in another congressional
special election

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in Georgia next week—and

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could be a sign
of voter anger

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against the Republican Party

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less than 100 days
into the Trump administration.

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In Afghanistan, a suicide
bomber killed five people

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and injured 10 others Wednesday

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in an attack
near government offices

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in the capital city, Kabul.

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ISIS claimed responsibility
for the attack,

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which occurred in one
of Kabul’s safest neighborhoods

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and was timed with the end
of the working day

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for government employees.

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In Washington state,

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immigrant rights groups say
a hunger strike at an ICE

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jail grew to more
than 750 people Wednesday,

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or about half the population

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of the for-profit
detention center in Tacoma.

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The hunger strikers are demanding
better food and conditions,

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and are protesting the fact
they are paid only $1

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a day for jail
work assignments.

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This is an audio recording

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of hunger striker
Jonathan Rodriguez Guzman.

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Jonathan Rodriguez Guzman:
"We don’t have contact visits here.

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So that’s one of the things

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that we wanted
to point out to them.

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The food, to give us
better food,

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better medical care.

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Or we shouldn’t be
held indoors 23 hours.

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We should be able to get sun
more than just one hour."

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ICE policy dictates
that hunger strikers

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can face force-feeding

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after refusing meals for 72 hours.

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It’s not clear if ICE
will impose the policy today,

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when some of the protesters

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will have been on hunger strike
for three days.

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In Florida, prosecutors

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have charged
a North Miami police officer

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with attempted manslaughter

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for shooting the unarmed

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behavioral therapist
of an autistic man.

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Video of the incident

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last summer shows
Charles Kinsey

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lying on his back
with his hands up

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and telling police
not to shoot, saying,

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"All he has is a toy truck."

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Kinsey was shot by
North Miami police officer

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Jonathan Aledda in the leg,

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00:11:06.540 --> 00:11:08.920
and says he was handcuffed
and left bleeding

264
00:11:08.920 --> 00:11:11.150
for 20 minutes
without medical aid.

265
00:11:11.150 --> 00:11:12.890
At the time of the shooting,

266
00:11:12.890 --> 00:11:15.710
Kinsey was helping
to calm his patient,

267
00:11:15.710 --> 00:11:17.350
a young autistic man

268
00:11:17.350 --> 00:11:19.660
who had wandered away
from a group home.

269
00:11:20.190 --> 00:11:24.280
If convicted, Aledda faces up
to five years in prison.

270
00:11:25.110 --> 00:11:26.470
In Sacramento, California,

271
00:11:26.470 --> 00:11:28.490
police have launched
a criminal investigation

272
00:11:28.490 --> 00:11:30.150
into a white police officer

273
00:11:30.150 --> 00:11:33.020
who was caught on video
slamming a black man

274
00:11:33.020 --> 00:11:35.060
to the ground
and pummeling him,

275
00:11:35.060 --> 00:11:36.390
after stopping the man
for allegedly jaywalking.

276
00:11:36.390 --> 00:11:40.080
Cellphone footage, as well as newly
released police dash-cam video,

277
00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:44.570
shows the officer—whose name
has not been released—tackling

278
00:11:44.570 --> 00:11:49.120
and then repeatedly punching
24-year-old Nandi Cain Jr.

279
00:11:49.120 --> 00:11:50.600
in the face.
Naomi Montaie:

280
00:11:50.600 --> 00:11:52.290
"No, you’ve got
to stay right here.

281
00:11:52.290 --> 00:11:53.800
You can’t. You can’t.

282
00:11:53.800 --> 00:11:55.880
Hey! Hey!
Hey!

283
00:11:55.880 --> 00:11:57.720
Why you doing him like that?

284
00:11:57.720 --> 00:11:59.270
Wait! Wait! Wait! Hey! Hey! Hey! Hey!

285
00:11:59.270 --> 00:12:05.070
Why you beating him
like that?"

286
00:12:12.620 --> 00:12:14.830
The Sacramento Police Department
on Wednesday called

287
00:12:14.830 --> 00:12:17.710
the officer’s behavior
unprofessional and "disturbing."

288
00:12:17.710 --> 00:12:19.610
The officer has been
placed on paid leave,

289
00:12:19.610 --> 00:12:22.110
pending an investigation;
after it’s completed,

290
00:12:22.110 --> 00:12:23.930
the Sacramento County
district attorney

291
00:12:23.930 --> 00:12:27.230
will decide whether
to press criminal charges.

292
00:12:27.230 --> 00:12:29.060
In New York City,
the family of Ramarley

293
00:12:29.060 --> 00:12:30.880
Graham filed a lawsuit Wednesday

294
00:12:30.880 --> 00:12:32.510
against the NYPD

295
00:12:32.510 --> 00:12:35.250
demanding it comply
with open records laws

296
00:12:35.250 --> 00:12:36.580
and hand over documents

297
00:12:36.580 --> 00:12:39.730
related to Graham’s killing
more than five years ago.

298
00:12:39.730 --> 00:12:41.460
On February 2, 2012,

299
00:12:41.460 --> 00:12:43.870
police officer
Richard Haste shot

300
00:12:43.870 --> 00:12:46.010
the teenaged Graham inside his home,

301
00:12:46.010 --> 00:12:47.380
in front of his grandmother

302
00:12:47.380 --> 00:12:48.870
and 6-year-old brother.

303
00:12:48.870 --> 00:12:51.160
Haste was initially charged
with manslaughter,

304
00:12:51.160 --> 00:12:53.020
but a judge later
threw out the indictment

305
00:12:53.020 --> 00:12:54.580
on procedural grounds.

306
00:12:54.580 --> 00:12:57.260
A second grand jury
elected not to indict.

307
00:12:58.160 --> 00:13:01.800
Wednesday’s lawsuit seeks police
disciplinary records,

308
00:13:01.800 --> 00:13:03.990
evidence logs and other information.

309
00:13:03.990 --> 00:13:05.990
Graham’s family
is also demanding

310
00:13:05.990 --> 00:13:07.780
the New York Police Department fire

311
00:13:07.780 --> 00:13:09.670
other officers involved in the killing

312
00:13:09.670 --> 00:13:11.150
and put them on trial.

313
00:13:11.150 --> 00:13:12.560
The lawsuit was filed on

314
00:13:12.560 --> 00:13:13.760
what would have
been Ramarley

315
00:13:13.760 --> 00:13:15.920
Graham’s 24th birthday.

316
00:13:17.110 --> 00:13:20.050
United Airlines said
Wednesday it will fully refund

317
00:13:20.050 --> 00:13:22.220
the tickets of all passengers

318
00:13:22.220 --> 00:13:24.190
on board Saturday’s flight

319
00:13:24.190 --> 00:13:26.240
on which a doctor was beaten

320
00:13:26.240 --> 00:13:28.940
before being forcibly
dragged off the plane,

321
00:13:28.940 --> 00:13:29.950
after he refused to give up
his paid seat.

322
00:13:29.950 --> 00:13:32.660
Video of the incident,
which left Dr. David Dao

323
00:13:32.660 --> 00:13:35.130
bleeding and disoriented,
went viral,

324
00:13:35.130 --> 00:13:36.840
prompting a backlash against

325
00:13:36.840 --> 00:13:38.610
United that sparked boycotts

326
00:13:38.610 --> 00:13:40.840
and wiped hundreds
of millions of dollars

327
00:13:40.840 --> 00:13:42.590
from the company’s stock price.

328
00:13:42.590 --> 00:13:44.700
Chicago’s Aviation Department said

329
00:13:44.700 --> 00:13:47.090
Wednesday that two
more officers involved

330
00:13:47.090 --> 00:13:49.550
in the beating
had been placed on leave.

331
00:13:49.550 --> 00:13:51.330
Meanwhile, lawyers for Dr. Dao

332
00:13:51.330 --> 00:13:53.320
filed an emergency request

333
00:13:53.320 --> 00:13:56.120
Wednesday that would require
United to preserve

334
00:13:56.120 --> 00:13:57.840
all video of the incident

335
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.630
as they prepare a civil case
against the airline.

336
00:14:14.670 --> 00:14:18.420
In South Africa, more than
30,000 protesters marched

337
00:14:18.420 --> 00:14:20.190
in the capital Pretoria Wednesday,

338
00:14:20.190 --> 00:14:22.120
calling on President Jacob Zuma

339
00:14:22.120 --> 00:14:24.430
to resign over charges of corruption

340
00:14:24.430 --> 00:14:25.790
and mismanagement of the economy.

341
00:14:25.790 --> 00:14:28.920
This is protester
Queen Marema.

342
00:14:28.920 --> 00:14:30.140
Queen Marema:

343
00:14:30.140 --> 00:14:32.620
"We want to remove Zuma
from his presidency.

344
00:14:32.620 --> 00:14:33.990
We are tired of corruption.

345
00:14:33.990 --> 00:14:36.390
And ever since became president,
he has done nothing.

346
00:14:36.390 --> 00:14:38.790
And we are not happy
about how he does things.

347
00:14:38.790 --> 00:14:41.310
So please help us.
Zuma must fall."

348
00:14:41.310 --> 00:14:42.830
Protester 2:
"Hashtag Zuma must fall!"

349
00:14:42.830 --> 00:14:44.810
Protester 3:
"Hashtag Zuma must fall!"

350
00:14:44.810 --> 00:14:48.350
Wednesday’s protests came
on Jacob Zuma’s 75th birthday

351
00:14:48.350 --> 00:14:50.220
and less than a week before he faces

352
00:14:50.220 --> 00:14:52.680
a no-confidence vote in Parliament.

353
00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:54.650
And in New York,
the first Muslim woman

354
00:14:54.650 --> 00:14:57.540
to serve as a U.S. judge was found dead

355
00:14:57.540 --> 00:14:59.890
in the Hudson
River Wednesday.

356
00:14:59.890 --> 00:15:02.750
Police say Sheila Abdus-Salaam

357
00:15:02.750 --> 00:15:05.670
was found floating in the river
near Upper Manhattan,

358
00:15:05.670 --> 00:15:07.890
not far from her home in Harlem.

359
00:15:07.890 --> 00:15:10.980
Her body was fully clothed
and showed no signs of trauma,

360
00:15:10.980 --> 00:15:14.310
although her family said an autopsy
will determine the cause of death.

361
00:15:14.850 --> 00:15:17.560
Judge Abdus-Salaam was appointed
to the New York

362
00:15:17.560 --> 00:15:20.200
Court of Appeals
in 2013 by Gov.

363
00:15:20.200 --> 00:15:21.700
Andrew Cuomo.

364
00:15:21.700 --> 00:15:24.650
In a video for the Citizens
Committee for New York City,

365
00:15:24.650 --> 00:15:27.590
Abdus-Salaam recalled
tracing her ancestry.

366
00:15:27.590 --> 00:15:30.330
Judge Sheila Abdus-Salaam:
"Researching that history,

367
00:15:30.330 --> 00:15:34.610
I discovered that I am
the great-granddaughter of slaves.

368
00:15:36.630 --> 00:15:39.770
That’s important because
this great-granddaughter

369
00:15:39.770 --> 00:15:41.120
of slaves

370
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:43.780
is the first
African-American woman

371
00:15:43.780 --> 00:15:46.490
on the highest court
of the state of New York."

372
00:15:47.280 --> 00:15:52.130
Sheila Abdus-Salaam
was 65 years old.

373
00:15:52.960 --> 00:15:54.290
And those are some of the headlines

374
00:15:54.290 --> 00:15:56.860
this is Democracy Now,
Democracynow.org,

375
00:15:56.860 --> 00:15:58.240
the War and Peace Report.

376
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.240
I’m Amy Goodman.

377
00:16:05.290 --> 00:16:08.350
NERMEEN SHAIKH: We turn now to look
at U.S.-Russian relations.

378
00:16:08.350 --> 00:16:09.970
Secretary of State
Rex Tillerson

379
00:16:09.970 --> 00:16:11.680
has wrapped up a visit to Moscow,

380
00:16:11.680 --> 00:16:13.190
where he met with Russian President

381
00:16:13.190 --> 00:16:16.600
Vladimir Putin and Russian
Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.

382
00:16:17.150 --> 00:16:19.480
The meetings come at a time
of increased tension

383
00:16:19.480 --> 00:16:21.400
between Washington and Moscow.

384
00:16:21.400 --> 00:16:23.530
On Wednesday during
a press conference,

385
00:16:23.530 --> 00:16:26.270
President Trump said relations
with Russia had

386
00:16:26.270 --> 00:16:27.930
reached a new low point.

387
00:16:28.890 --> 00:16:30.560
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: 
It would be wonderful,

388
00:16:30.560 --> 00:16:33.070
as we were discussing
just a little while ago,

389
00:16:33.650 --> 00:16:37.270
if NATO and our country
could get along with Russia.

390
00:16:37.270 --> 00:16:39.360
Right now we’re not getting
along with Russia at all.

391
00:16:40.090 --> 00:16:41.780
We may be at an all-time low

392
00:16:41.780 --> 00:16:44.710
in terms of relationship with Russia.

393
00:16:44.710 --> 00:16:46.760
This has built
for a long period of time.

394
00:16:47.260 --> 00:16:49.190
But we’re going to see what happens.

395
00:16:49.930 --> 00:16:51.460
Putin is the leader of Russia.

396
00:16:52.020 --> 00:16:54.530
Russia is a strong country.

397
00:16:54.530 --> 00:16:56.630
We’re a very, very strong country.

398
00:16:57.490 --> 00:16:59.830
AMY GOODMAN: Trump’s comments came a day

399
00:16:59.830 --> 00:17:02.660
after the White House
accused Russia of attempting

400
00:17:02.660 --> 00:17:05.060
to cover up the role
of the Syrian government

401
00:17:05.060 --> 00:17:09.500
in the recent chemical attack
in Syria that killed 87 people.

402
00:17:09.500 --> 00:17:11.170
Russia has rejected the claim,

403
00:17:11.170 --> 00:17:13.120
saying the U.S. has been too quick

404
00:17:13.120 --> 00:17:15.160
to blame Syrian President
Bashar al-Assad.

405
00:17:15.760 --> 00:17:18.630
At the United Nations,
Russia blocked a Security Council

406
00:17:18.630 --> 00:17:21.560
resolution Wednesday to denounce
the chemical attack

407
00:17:21.560 --> 00:17:24.050
and to call on Assad’s
government to cooperate

408
00:17:24.050 --> 00:17:25.920
with an international probe.

409
00:17:25.920 --> 00:17:28.210
Meanwhile, Russia has
accused the United States

410
00:17:28.210 --> 00:17:29.890
of violating international law

411
00:17:29.890 --> 00:17:33.250
by bombing a Syrian air
base last week.

412
00:17:33.250 --> 00:17:35.470
NERMEEN SHAIKH: The rising tension
also comes at a time

413
00:17:35.470 --> 00:17:39.000
when President Trump is reversing
his criticism of NATO.

414
00:17:39.000 --> 00:17:41.150
On the campaign trail,
Trump described

415
00:17:41.150 --> 00:17:43.130
NATO as "obsolete"

416
00:17:43.130 --> 00:17:45.360
and vowed to reconsider
U.S. membership

417
00:17:45.360 --> 00:17:48.720
because it was, quote,
"costing us a fortune."

418
00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:51.650
But on Wednesday,
Trump struck a different tone.

419
00:17:52.510 --> 00:17:53.870
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: 
The secretary general

420
00:17:53.870 --> 00:17:55.600
and I had a productive discussion

421
00:17:55.600 --> 00:18:00.280
about what more NATO can do
in the fight against terrorism.

422
00:18:01.160 --> 00:18:03.190
I complained about
that a long time ago,

423
00:18:03.190 --> 00:18:04.420
and they made a change,

424
00:18:04.970 --> 00:18:06.660
and now they do fight terrorism.

425
00:18:07.160 --> 00:18:08.450
I said it was obsolete.

426
00:18:09.250 --> 00:18:10.710
It’s no longer obsolete.

427
00:18:11.510 --> 00:18:15.970
It’s my hope that NATO
will take on an increased role

428
00:18:16.540 --> 00:18:19.920
in supporting our Iraqi partners

429
00:18:19.920 --> 00:18:21.780
in their battle against ISIS.

430
00:18:22.530 --> 00:18:23.930
AMY GOODMAN: President Trump’s remark

431
00:18:23.930 --> 00:18:26.120
came one day after he signed off

432
00:18:26.120 --> 00:18:30.220
on allowing the former Yugoslav
republic Montenegro

433
00:18:30.220 --> 00:18:33.120
to join NATO, a move opposed by Russia,

434
00:18:33.120 --> 00:18:35.610
which has criticized
the expansion of NATO.

435
00:18:35.610 --> 00:18:37.950
We’re joined now
by Stephen Cohen,

436
00:18:37.950 --> 00:18:40.170
professor emeritus
of Russian studies

437
00:18:40.170 --> 00:18:42.140
and politics at New York University

438
00:18:42.140 --> 00:18:43.630
and Princeton University.

439
00:18:43.630 --> 00:18:45.940
His most recent book,
Soviet Fates

440
00:18:45.940 --> 00:18:47.610
and Lost Alternatives:

441
00:18:47.610 --> 00:18:50.030
From Stalinism to the New Cold War,

442
00:18:50.030 --> 00:18:51.430
it’s out in paperback.

443
00:18:51.430 --> 00:18:54.020
He’s a contributing editor
at The Nation magazine.

444
00:18:54.020 --> 00:18:56.270
And joining us from London,
Jonathan Steele,

445
00:18:56.270 --> 00:18:59.490
former Moscow correspondent
for The Guardian, chief reporter

446
00:18:59.490 --> 00:19:01.510
at the website Middle East Eye.

447
00:19:01.510 --> 00:19:03.440
He’s the author of Eternal Russia:

448
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:06.010
Yeltsin, Gorbachev,
and the Mirage of Democracy.

449
00:19:07.100 --> 00:19:09.100
Stephen Cohen, let’s begin with you.

450
00:19:09.100 --> 00:19:10.960
Explain what you understand

451
00:19:10.960 --> 00:19:13.130
took place in Moscow yesterday

452
00:19:13.130 --> 00:19:16.980
in this meeting between
the foreign minister,

453
00:19:16.980 --> 00:19:21.760
Lavrov, and Rex Tillerson,
the secretary of state,

454
00:19:21.760 --> 00:19:23.720
joined by the president, Putin.

455
00:19:25.870 --> 00:19:28.890
STEPHEN COHEN: The Russian leadership
knows Mr. Tillerson

456
00:19:28.890 --> 00:19:30.980
very, very well.

457
00:19:30.980 --> 00:19:32.940
For six or seven years,

458
00:19:32.940 --> 00:19:34.530
they dealt directly with him,

459
00:19:35.090 --> 00:19:36.360
including Putin,

460
00:19:36.360 --> 00:19:39.360
on one of the largest
energy deals Russia

461
00:19:39.360 --> 00:19:42.500
had ever made with
a Western energy giant,

462
00:19:42.500 --> 00:19:43.920
in this case, ExxonMobil.

463
00:19:45.510 --> 00:19:49.210
They would not have
made that deal,

464
00:19:49.210 --> 00:19:52.290
for many billions of dollars,

465
00:19:52.290 --> 00:19:54.700
if they did not think—excuse me—that

466
00:19:54.700 --> 00:19:57.580
Mr. Tillerson
was a deeply serious,

467
00:19:58.240 --> 00:20:00.330
competent and honorable man.

468
00:20:00.330 --> 00:20:01.650
Now, we can have
our own views

469
00:20:01.650 --> 00:20:05.030
about the power of global oil
companies in world affairs,

470
00:20:05.030 --> 00:20:07.130
but this is a bilateral relationship

471
00:20:07.130 --> 00:20:09.110
that was very important.

472
00:20:09.110 --> 00:20:13.730
Therefore, when Tillerson
came to Moscow yesterday

473
00:20:13.730 --> 00:20:15.070
in his new capacity,

474
00:20:16.080 --> 00:20:17.510
they knew they were talking

475
00:20:17.510 --> 00:20:20.260
with a man
of immense experience,

476
00:20:20.260 --> 00:20:23.090
because ExxonMobil has
its own State Department,

477
00:20:23.090 --> 00:20:25.310
its own intelligence services,

478
00:20:25.310 --> 00:20:28.690
and a man that they could trust
to be candid with them.

479
00:20:29.270 --> 00:20:31.400
And they had questions
for Mr. Tillerson.

480
00:20:32.100 --> 00:20:34.950
We only heard echoes of that
in the public statements.

481
00:20:35.910 --> 00:20:38.700
One question was—and,

482
00:20:38.700 --> 00:20:40.430
by the way, Lavrov,
the foreign minister,

483
00:20:40.430 --> 00:20:42.800
met first with Tillerson,
then Putin joined them.

484
00:20:42.800 --> 00:20:45.550
But altogether,
it was about five hours.

485
00:20:45.550 --> 00:20:46.750
The first was:

486
00:20:46.750 --> 00:20:48.650
What’s going on
in Washington?

487
00:20:48.650 --> 00:20:52.990
What is this all—all this
talk that Putin is our puppet?

488
00:20:52.990 --> 00:20:55.160
Are you people operating
on that assumption?

489
00:20:55.870 --> 00:20:58.050
Secondly, and this was
very important:

490
00:20:58.050 --> 00:21:00.690
Who’s making policy
toward us in Washington?

491
00:21:01.260 --> 00:21:04.550
Remember that when
President Obama

492
00:21:04.550 --> 00:21:07.300
had reached an agreement
last year with President

493
00:21:07.300 --> 00:21:09.860
Putin for joint
military cooperation

494
00:21:10.510 --> 00:21:11.940
in Syria,

495
00:21:11.940 --> 00:21:14.410
our Department of Defense sabotaged

496
00:21:14.410 --> 00:21:17.660
that policy by bombing
a Syrian troop camp.

497
00:21:18.300 --> 00:21:20.180
And Putin publicly said,

498
00:21:20.180 --> 00:21:22.240
"Who’s making policy
in Washington?"

499
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:25.130
So I think those were the
two fundamental questions

500
00:21:25.130 --> 00:21:27.480
they were going to ask.
And the third question

501
00:21:27.480 --> 00:21:30.260
was that "We had agreed,"

502
00:21:31.340 --> 00:21:33.330
said Putin to Tillerson, I assume,

503
00:21:34.140 --> 00:21:36.200
"that you now accepted
our position,

504
00:21:37.360 --> 00:21:40.640
which we have held to for years,

505
00:21:40.640 --> 00:21:42.630
but which President
Obama rejected,

506
00:21:43.340 --> 00:21:46.620
that the choice is between
President Assad in Damascus

507
00:21:47.480 --> 00:21:49.650
or the Islamic State in Damascus.

508
00:21:51.040 --> 00:21:53.330
You said you accepted that position.

509
00:21:53.330 --> 00:21:56.850
But after this chemical gas attack,

510
00:21:56.850 --> 00:21:59.100
you seem to have drifted
from that position.

511
00:21:59.100 --> 00:22:01.400
We need to know now your position,

512
00:22:01.400 --> 00:22:04.620
because we’re going to base
our military calculations in Syria

513
00:22:04.620 --> 00:22:05.950
on what you tell us today."

514
00:22:07.050 --> 00:22:11.380
I end by saying that Tillerson
and President Trump

515
00:22:11.380 --> 00:22:15.100
said something extremely important
yesterday—it’s been lost

516
00:22:15.100 --> 00:22:17.840
in all this madcap Kremlingate

517
00:22:17.840 --> 00:22:19.500
in Washington—that

518
00:22:19.500 --> 00:22:22.200
American-Russian relations,
said President Trump,

519
00:22:22.200 --> 00:22:23.830
may be at
an all-time low.

520
00:22:24.690 --> 00:22:26.130
That’s a very
important statement.

521
00:22:26.130 --> 00:22:28.130
It gets our attention back
on what’s essential.

522
00:22:28.830 --> 00:22:31.630
And Tillerson said—and
this was important—there

523
00:22:31.630 --> 00:22:33.380
is no trust between us.

524
00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:35.670
And that’s not acceptable
when we’re talking about

525
00:22:35.670 --> 00:22:37.820
the two nuclear superpowers.

526
00:22:37.820 --> 00:22:41.820
So, for all the media
blitz and riff on this,

527
00:22:41.820 --> 00:22:44.270
because the mainstream media hears
what it wants to hear

528
00:22:44.270 --> 00:22:45.940
and has its own narratives,

529
00:22:45.940 --> 00:22:47.700
I thought that was
very important.

530
00:22:47.700 --> 00:22:49.000
The news is very bad,

531
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:50.890
but that was
a piece of good news.

532
00:22:50.890 --> 00:22:53.460
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But when you say
that Russia wanted to know

533
00:22:53.460 --> 00:22:55.990
who’s making policy
in Washington,

534
00:22:55.990 --> 00:22:58.810
what do they suspect,
if it’s not Trump and Tillerson?

535
00:22:58.810 --> 00:23:01.030
Who might be making policy
in Washington?

536
00:23:01.630 --> 00:23:04.730
STEPHEN COHEN: What do you suspect?
NERMEEN SHAIKH: You tell us.

537
00:23:04.730 --> 00:23:06.110
STEPHEN COHEN: Well, we—I mean,

538
00:23:06.110 --> 00:23:07.650
I’m not a conspiracy buff,

539
00:23:07.650 --> 00:23:08.930
but we have a certain reality.

540
00:23:09.690 --> 00:23:12.380
I did not vote for President Trump,

541
00:23:12.380 --> 00:23:16.030
but I certainly supported
his campaign promise

542
00:23:16.580 --> 00:23:18.490
that cooperation
with Russia would be,

543
00:23:18.490 --> 00:23:20.370
as he put it, great.

544
00:23:20.370 --> 00:23:23.400
And if I have a minute,
let me tell you why I think it’s great.

545
00:23:25.090 --> 00:23:29.800
I think—and I’ve been
doing this for 40 years,

546
00:23:29.800 --> 00:23:31.630
studying American-Russian relations,

547
00:23:31.630 --> 00:23:33.130
as a professor,

548
00:23:33.130 --> 00:23:35.470
but I’ve also been
inside occasionally.

549
00:23:36.020 --> 00:23:38.090
I think this is
the most dangerous moment

550
00:23:38.090 --> 00:23:39.610
in American-Russian relations,

551
00:23:39.610 --> 00:23:41.720
at least since
the Cuban missile crisis.

552
00:23:41.720 --> 00:23:43.340
And arguably, it’s more dangerous,

553
00:23:43.340 --> 00:23:45.400
because it’s more complex.

554
00:23:46.050 --> 00:23:49.450
Therefore, we—and then, meanwhile,

555
00:23:49.450 --> 00:23:52.560
we have in Washington these—and,

556
00:23:52.560 --> 00:23:55.520
in my judgment,
factless accusations that Trump

557
00:23:55.520 --> 00:23:58.290
has somehow been
compromised by the Kremlin.

558
00:23:58.290 --> 00:24:02.570
So, at this worst moment
in American-Russian relations,

559
00:24:02.570 --> 00:24:04.030
we have an American president

560
00:24:04.030 --> 00:24:05.660
who’s being politically crippled

561
00:24:06.570 --> 00:24:08.940
by the worst
imaginable—it’s unprecedented.

562
00:24:08.940 --> 00:24:11.060
Let’s stop and think.
No American president

563
00:24:11.900 --> 00:24:13.100
has ever been accused,

564
00:24:13.100 --> 00:24:14.390
essentially, of treason.

565
00:24:14.390 --> 00:24:16.200
This is what we’re
talking about here,

566
00:24:16.200 --> 00:24:18.680
or that his associates
have committed treason.

567
00:24:20.060 --> 00:24:22.230
Imagine, for example,
John Kennedy

568
00:24:22.230 --> 00:24:23.600
during the Cuban missile crisis.

569
00:24:24.340 --> 00:24:26.820
And for the viewers who are not
of a certain age,

570
00:24:27.890 --> 00:24:30.830
the Kennedy administration
was presented—and the evidence,

571
00:24:30.830 --> 00:24:32.260
by the way,
was presented to us;

572
00:24:32.260 --> 00:24:34.520
they showed us
the surveillance photos.

573
00:24:34.520 --> 00:24:36.960
There was no doubt
what the Soviets had done,

574
00:24:37.550 --> 00:24:39.440
putting missile silos in Cuba.

575
00:24:40.110 --> 00:24:42.900
No evidence has been
presented today of anything.

576
00:24:42.900 --> 00:24:45.070
Imagine if Kennedy
had been accused

577
00:24:45.070 --> 00:24:48.170
of being a secret
Soviet Kremlin agent.

578
00:24:48.170 --> 00:24:49.560
He would have been crippled.

579
00:24:49.560 --> 00:24:51.030
And the only way
he could have proved

580
00:24:51.030 --> 00:24:54.260
he wasn’t was to have launched a war

581
00:24:54.260 --> 00:24:55.520
against the Soviet Union.

582
00:24:55.520 --> 00:24:58.410
And at that time,
the option was nuclear war.

583
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:01.690
So the question arises, naturally:

584
00:25:01.690 --> 00:25:05.670
Why did Trump launch
50 Tomahawk missiles

585
00:25:06.650 --> 00:25:09.130
at a Syrian Air Force base,

586
00:25:09.710 --> 00:25:12.040
when, God help us,
he did kill some people,

587
00:25:12.560 --> 00:25:14.890
but was of no
military value whatsoever?

588
00:25:14.890 --> 00:25:19.090
Was this meant to show
"I’m not a Kremlin agent"?

589
00:25:19.090 --> 00:25:22.220
Because, normally, a president
would have done the following.

590
00:25:22.220 --> 00:25:24.190
You would go to
the United Nations—though

591
00:25:24.190 --> 00:25:25.680
Putin says you should
go to The Hague,

592
00:25:25.680 --> 00:25:28.400
but they both have
investigative units—and ask

593
00:25:28.400 --> 00:25:29.950
for an investigation

594
00:25:29.950 --> 00:25:33.930
about what happened
with those chemical weapons.

595
00:25:34.600 --> 00:25:36.530
And then you would
decide what to do.

596
00:25:36.530 --> 00:25:38.800
But while having dinner
at Mar-a-Lago

597
00:25:39.620 --> 00:25:40.890
with the leader of China,

598
00:25:40.890 --> 00:25:43.110
who was deeply humiliated,

599
00:25:43.110 --> 00:25:45.370
because he’s an ally of Russia,

600
00:25:45.370 --> 00:25:48.290
they rushed off
these Tomahawk missiles. So—

601
00:25:48.290 --> 00:25:49.570
AMY GOODMAN: Over chocolate cake,

602
00:25:49.570 --> 00:25:52.290
you heard Donald
Trump himself describe.

603
00:25:52.290 --> 00:25:53.760
STEPHEN COHEN: I didn’t
take umbrage at that,

604
00:25:53.760 --> 00:25:56.040
because I often say
that about carrot cake.

605
00:25:56.040 --> 00:25:58.230
I often say, "God,
this is the best carrot cake

606
00:25:58.230 --> 00:25:59.350
I’ve ever seen in the world."

607
00:25:59.350 --> 00:26:00.860
I mean, that’s an American expression.

608
00:26:00.860 --> 00:26:03.320
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, he also
initially said Iraq, and not Syria.

609
00:26:03.320 --> 00:26:04.370
AMY GOODMAN: That they bombed Iraq.

610
00:26:04.370 --> 00:26:09.350
STEPHEN COHEN: Yeah, I’m not
in the mode of bashing Trump

611
00:26:09.350 --> 00:26:10.770
if he gets something right.

612
00:26:10.770 --> 00:26:13.180
We have to cling
to what we have.

613
00:26:13.180 --> 00:26:15.060
But—so we asked this question:

614
00:26:16.190 --> 00:26:18.100
Why did they do that?

615
00:26:18.100 --> 00:26:19.460
And why did Trump do it?

616
00:26:19.460 --> 00:26:23.670
And was he fed bad
intelligence information

617
00:26:23.670 --> 00:26:24.980
or dubious information?

618
00:26:24.980 --> 00:26:26.770
We have a long history
of that in America.

619
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:29.950
And that’s why the Russians
wanted to ask Tillerson,

620
00:26:30.910 --> 00:26:32.520
"Who’s making policy?

621
00:26:32.520 --> 00:26:37.860
Because we tell you
that your narratives aren’t true.

622
00:26:38.650 --> 00:26:40.580
But we are"—and, by the way,
let me add one thing,

623
00:26:40.580 --> 00:26:42.030
because this is—and then I’ll stop.

624
00:26:42.030 --> 00:26:44.040
This is very important.

625
00:26:44.040 --> 00:26:47.040
The number two man
in the Kremlin leadership,

626
00:26:47.040 --> 00:26:48.320
the prime minister of Russia,

627
00:26:48.320 --> 00:26:51.600
Dmitry Medvedev,
now, remember who he is.

628
00:26:51.600 --> 00:26:55.240
He’s considered to be the most
pro-Western member of the leadership.

629
00:26:55.750 --> 00:26:58.730
And he was the man
on whom President Obama

630
00:26:58.730 --> 00:27:01.170
and Secretary of State Clinton

631
00:27:01.170 --> 00:27:04.110
based their entire so-called reset.

632
00:27:04.110 --> 00:27:06.300
And if we could only—he was sitting
in the presidency

633
00:27:06.300 --> 00:27:08.310
at the moment—only keep him in power.

634
00:27:08.820 --> 00:27:12.760
So everybody liked
Prime Minister Medvedev—said,

635
00:27:12.760 --> 00:27:14.650
in the aftermath of this,

636
00:27:14.650 --> 00:27:16.310
"We are on the brink of war,

637
00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:20.900
and American-Russian relations
are utterly ruined."

638
00:27:20.900 --> 00:27:23.630
So if the pro-Western faction
in the Kremlin

639
00:27:24.340 --> 00:27:25.650
is saying that,

640
00:27:25.650 --> 00:27:27.440
need I tell you

641
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:29.640
what the so-called state patriots

642
00:27:29.640 --> 00:27:31.860
are telling Putin about
what’s going on?

643
00:27:31.860 --> 00:27:34.720
That’s why what Tillerson
said was so important.

644
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:36.820
AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to break
and then come back to this discussion.

645
00:27:36.820 --> 00:27:38.590
In addition to Stephen Cohen,

646
00:27:38.590 --> 00:27:40.520
professor emeritus of Russian studies

647
00:27:40.520 --> 00:27:43.060
at both New York University
and Princeton University,

648
00:27:43.060 --> 00:27:45.230
we’ll be joined
by Jonathan Steele,

649
00:27:45.230 --> 00:27:48.470
former correspondent
for The Guardian Moscow for years

650
00:27:48.470 --> 00:27:51.060
and now working with Middle East Eye.

651
00:27:51.060 --> 00:27:53.280
This is Democracy Now!
We’ll be back in a minute.

652
00:29:19.270 --> 00:29:21.510
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Donald Trump’s
adult son Eric Trump

653
00:29:21.510 --> 00:29:22.930
cited mounting tensions

654
00:29:22.930 --> 00:29:25.460
between the U.S. and Russia as evidence

655
00:29:25.460 --> 00:29:28.790
that top Trump associates
weren’t colluding with Russia

656
00:29:28.790 --> 00:29:30.630
to sway the 2016 election.

657
00:29:31.170 --> 00:29:34.400
In an interview with The Telegraph,
Eric Trump said, quote,

658
00:29:34.400 --> 00:29:38.570
"If there was anything that Syria did,
it was to validate the fact

659
00:29:38.570 --> 00:29:41.010
that there is no Russia tie."

660
00:29:42.780 --> 00:29:44.680
We’re joined now by two guests.

661
00:29:44.680 --> 00:29:46.500
Here in New York, Stephen Cohen,

662
00:29:46.500 --> 00:29:48.390
professor emeritus of Russian studies

663
00:29:48.390 --> 00:29:51.860
and politics at New York University
and Princeton University.

664
00:29:51.860 --> 00:29:54.260
AMY GOODMAN: And joining us from London,
Jonathan Steele,

665
00:29:54.260 --> 00:29:56.650
former Moscow correspondent
for The Guardian.

666
00:29:56.650 --> 00:29:58.870
He is chief reporter
at the website Middle

667
00:29:58.870 --> 00:30:00.490
East Eye,
author of Eternal Russia:

668
00:30:00.490 --> 00:30:02.590
Yeltsin, Gorbachev,
and the Mirage of Democracy.

669
00:30:02.590 --> 00:30:04.600
Jonathan, thanks
for joining us again.

670
00:30:04.600 --> 00:30:06.190
You spent years in Moscow.

671
00:30:06.190 --> 00:30:08.690
The significance
of what Donald Trump’s son

672
00:30:08.690 --> 00:30:11.010
said—it’s really what Professor

673
00:30:11.010 --> 00:30:14.550
Cohen was also pointing out—that

674
00:30:14.550 --> 00:30:16.640
perhaps this bombing was about,

675
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:19.550
given what’s happening
right now in Washington,

676
00:30:19.550 --> 00:30:23.260
questioning Donald Trump’s
relationship with Russia,

677
00:30:23.260 --> 00:30:26.920
that they wanted to prove
something once and for all?

678
00:30:29.520 --> 00:30:31.960
JONATHAN STEELE: Well, I think
the people who’ve benefited

679
00:30:31.960 --> 00:30:33.700
from this terrible gas

680
00:30:33.700 --> 00:30:36.740
incident in Khan Sheikhoun last week

681
00:30:36.740 --> 00:30:38.220
were certainly not Assad,

682
00:30:38.220 --> 00:30:40.040
certainly not the Russian government.

683
00:30:40.040 --> 00:30:43.690
The people who’ve benefited are,
as you suggested in the question,

684
00:30:43.690 --> 00:30:46.740
the people who were defending themselves

685
00:30:46.740 --> 00:30:48.210
against the allegation that Trump

686
00:30:48.210 --> 00:30:50.200
is somehow a puppet of Moscow.

687
00:30:50.200 --> 00:30:53.130
It was the military-industrial
complex in Washington,

688
00:30:53.130 --> 00:30:55.650
what we would now—it’s
Eisenhower’s phrase,

689
00:30:55.650 --> 00:30:58.090
but what we would now
call the deep state,

690
00:30:58.090 --> 00:30:59.610
you know, the kind of alliance

691
00:30:59.610 --> 00:31:02.220
between the top military
brass in Washington,

692
00:31:02.220 --> 00:31:03.860
the arms manufacturers

693
00:31:03.860 --> 00:31:05.710
and the intelligence agencies,

694
00:31:05.710 --> 00:31:07.530
who were really worried that Trump

695
00:31:07.530 --> 00:31:09.350
was somehow getting out of control

696
00:31:09.350 --> 00:31:11.740
and opening up
good relations with Russia,

697
00:31:11.740 --> 00:31:12.970
and they wanted to get him back

698
00:31:12.970 --> 00:31:16.290
on the traditional
track of confrontation with Russia.

699
00:31:16.290 --> 00:31:18.620
And, of course, a third group
that’s really benefited

700
00:31:18.620 --> 00:31:20.890
are the armed opposition to Assad,

701
00:31:20.890 --> 00:31:23.220
because they’ve suddenly
got a new lease of life,

702
00:31:23.220 --> 00:31:24.710
when it looked as though
they were on the verge

703
00:31:24.710 --> 00:31:27.060
of losing their last sliver

704
00:31:27.060 --> 00:31:29.920
of territory around Idlib
in northwest Syria.

705
00:31:29.920 --> 00:31:32.330
They’ve been given the option,

706
00:31:32.330 --> 00:31:34.720
the—perhaps the option
of being defended

707
00:31:34.720 --> 00:31:37.380
militarily by NATO
with airstrikes.

708
00:31:37.380 --> 00:31:40.100
They’ve had one airstrike,
and they’re obviously hoping for more.

709
00:31:40.100 --> 00:31:42.940
And they’re certainly not going
to compromise in the Geneva talks.

710
00:31:42.940 --> 00:31:47.980
So everybody who’s benefited is
on the non-Syrian, non-Russian side.

711
00:31:48.610 --> 00:31:51.080
NERMEEN SHAIKH: But there are those
who argue, Jonathan Steele,

712
00:31:51.080 --> 00:31:54.230
that the Assad regime has benefited,

713
00:31:54.230 --> 00:31:57.280
simply by warning the rebels

714
00:31:57.280 --> 00:32:00.600
not to continue their fight
against the regime.

715
00:32:03.090 --> 00:32:05.630
JONATHAN STEELE: Well, but not by
the use of chemical weapons.

716
00:32:05.630 --> 00:32:08.150
I mean, that’s why it seems
so unlikely that the Syrians

717
00:32:08.150 --> 00:32:09.620
would have used chemical weapons.

718
00:32:09.620 --> 00:32:12.140
Of course, they’re still
using conventional bombing,

719
00:32:12.140 --> 00:32:13.710
and they’re using
their ground forces

720
00:32:13.710 --> 00:32:15.950
to try and push them
out of Idlib.

721
00:32:15.950 --> 00:32:20.090
But the gas attack
was the last thing they wanted.

722
00:32:20.090 --> 00:32:21.880
But it’s important
to point out, too,

723
00:32:21.880 --> 00:32:24.380
that although the Russians
vetoed the resolution

724
00:32:24.380 --> 00:32:25.780
in the U.N. Security Council

725
00:32:25.780 --> 00:32:29.300
last night calling
for Syria to cooperate,

726
00:32:29.300 --> 00:32:33.260
the element of cooperation
which the West wanted,

727
00:32:33.260 --> 00:32:34.730
the U.S., Britain and France,

728
00:32:34.730 --> 00:32:37.360
was that they should show
their flight logbooks

729
00:32:37.360 --> 00:32:38.570
of all their aircraft.

730
00:32:38.570 --> 00:32:41.380
That’s a huge violation
or intrusion of sovereignty,

731
00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:42.840
which the Syrians
couldn’t accept.

732
00:32:42.840 --> 00:32:46.960
But as Lavrov pointed out
in his remarks with Tillerson

733
00:32:46.960 --> 00:32:48.720
when they were having
their joint press conference,

734
00:32:48.720 --> 00:32:51.730
the Syrian government
has written to the Organization

735
00:32:51.730 --> 00:32:54.150
for the Prohibition
of Chemical Weapons,

736
00:32:54.150 --> 00:32:55.760
offering an inquiry,

737
00:32:55.760 --> 00:32:57.730
offering access to the airfield

738
00:32:57.730 --> 00:32:59.850
that was hit by
the American cruise missiles,

739
00:32:59.850 --> 00:33:02.110
but also calling,
quite legitimately,

740
00:33:02.110 --> 00:33:04.960
for the rebels to give access
to the site

741
00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:07.580
where the sarin
gas was used,

742
00:33:07.580 --> 00:33:08.960
to see whether indeed it

743
00:33:08.960 --> 00:33:10.410
was caused by an airstrike

744
00:33:10.410 --> 00:33:12.290
or caused by somebody on the ground

745
00:33:12.290 --> 00:33:13.800
who was doing a dirty trick

746
00:33:13.800 --> 00:33:16.520
to try and discredit
the Syrian government.

747
00:33:16.520 --> 00:33:18.530
AMY GOODMAN: The Guardian's Kareem
Shaheen

748
00:33:18.530 --> 00:33:20.050
was the first Western reporter

749
00:33:20.050 --> 00:33:21.800
to visit the site of Khan Sheikhoun,

750
00:33:22.320 --> 00:33:24.330
the chemical weapons attack.

751
00:33:24.330 --> 00:33:25.910
In a piece headlined

752
00:33:25.910 --> 00:33:29.000
"'The dead were
wherever you looked’:

753
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:31.920
inside Syrian town after gas attack,"

754
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.210
The Guardian examined the warehouse

755
00:33:34.210 --> 00:33:38.150
and silos directly next to
where the missile had landed.

756
00:33:38.150 --> 00:33:39.580
And Shaheen says they, quote,

757
00:33:39.580 --> 00:33:43.020
"found nothing but an abandoned
space covered in dust

758
00:33:43.020 --> 00:33:44.730
and half-destroyed silos

759
00:33:44.730 --> 00:33:47.730
reeking of leftover grain
and animal manure."

760
00:33:47.730 --> 00:33:49.560
He went on to write, quote,

761
00:33:49.560 --> 00:33:51.450
"Residents said the silos

762
00:33:51.450 --> 00:33:54.330
had been damaged in air
raids six months ago,

763
00:33:54.330 --> 00:33:56.940
and had stood unused
since then."

764
00:33:56.940 --> 00:33:58.160
Your response?

765
00:34:00.870 --> 00:34:03.770
JONATHAN STEELE: Well, that’s true.
I mean, that report is accurate.

766
00:34:03.770 --> 00:34:05.680
But the crucial evidence is:

767
00:34:05.680 --> 00:34:08.010
Where did the sarin gas come from?

768
00:34:08.010 --> 00:34:11.350
And Professor Theodore Postol of MIT

769
00:34:11.350 --> 00:34:12.850
has just come out with a report

770
00:34:12.850 --> 00:34:15.290
trying to discredit the White House

771
00:34:15.290 --> 00:34:16.930
statement
of the day before,

772
00:34:16.930 --> 00:34:19.200
a four-page White
House statement.

773
00:34:19.200 --> 00:34:21.140
And Postol argues

774
00:34:21.140 --> 00:34:25.950
that the 122-millimeter
rocket tube

775
00:34:25.950 --> 00:34:28.560
that is lying on the ground,
that has been shown to reporters

776
00:34:28.560 --> 00:34:30.310
and others who’ve come to the site,

777
00:34:30.310 --> 00:34:35.460
was not broken open
by impact with the ground,

778
00:34:35.460 --> 00:34:38.400
but by something that
crashed onto it from above.

779
00:34:38.400 --> 00:34:41.590
That suggests it has to have
been broken by somebody

780
00:34:41.590 --> 00:34:42.990
standing on the ground,

781
00:34:42.990 --> 00:34:46.860
putting explosives onto it from above,

782
00:34:46.860 --> 00:34:48.930
rather than being something
that was dropped

783
00:34:48.930 --> 00:34:50.660
from an aircraft from on high.

784
00:34:51.490 --> 00:34:53.510
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, Stephen Cohen,
I’d like to ask you:

785
00:34:54.600 --> 00:34:59.370
If, in fact, as Russia
and the Assad regime claim,

786
00:34:59.370 --> 00:35:02.340
they had nothing to do
with this chemical weapons attack,

787
00:35:02.340 --> 00:35:06.220
what do they believe—who
do they believe is responsible?

788
00:35:07.630 --> 00:35:09.760
STEPHEN COHEN: Well, we come back
to where we began.

789
00:35:09.760 --> 00:35:11.670
That’s what they asked Tillerson.

790
00:35:11.670 --> 00:35:14.050
They showed him
their intelligence,

791
00:35:14.050 --> 00:35:17.110
which corresponds
to what Jonathan says.

792
00:35:17.110 --> 00:35:18.850
And, by the way,
Jonathan Steele

793
00:35:19.430 --> 00:35:22.000
is one of the preeminent journalistic

794
00:35:22.000 --> 00:35:23.280
authorities on Russia

795
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:24.940
and knows a lot
about the Middle East.

796
00:35:24.940 --> 00:35:27.320
I take very seriously
what he told you.

797
00:35:30.450 --> 00:35:33.180
Putin went on to say—maybe
he shouldn’t say it,

798
00:35:33.180 --> 00:35:34.670
but the one thing
about Putin is,

799
00:35:34.670 --> 00:35:36.530
everybody says
he dissembles.

800
00:35:36.530 --> 00:35:37.780
The fact is, he’s very candid.

801
00:35:37.780 --> 00:35:40.390
He usually says
what’s on his mind.

802
00:35:40.390 --> 00:35:43.670
And he said twice yesterday—sometimes
I get the days confused

803
00:35:43.670 --> 00:35:47.100
because of the time difference
in Moscow—it was a provocation.

804
00:35:47.630 --> 00:35:50.450
He used the Russian word
—it’s the same, provokatsiya.

805
00:35:50.450 --> 00:35:54.000
He said somebody
is trying to provoke war

806
00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:56.130
between the United States and Russia.

807
00:35:57.660 --> 00:35:59.300
He did not say who.

808
00:36:00.090 --> 00:36:02.660
But Jonathan has given us
a suggestion,

809
00:36:03.190 --> 00:36:06.670
that powerful forces
in Washington did

810
00:36:06.670 --> 00:36:10.760
not like Trump’s
stated policy of detente,

811
00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:13.330
as we used to call it,
with Russia, cooperation,

812
00:36:14.120 --> 00:36:16.580
and have done
everything they can

813
00:36:16.580 --> 00:36:18.950
to destroy that possibility.

814
00:36:18.950 --> 00:36:21.160
Now, let’s be a little bit
grown up here,

815
00:36:22.800 --> 00:36:24.200
especially on this program.

816
00:36:25.250 --> 00:36:28.200
You had a lot of people
on this program over the years

817
00:36:28.200 --> 00:36:31.430
who are deeply suspicious
of the American intelligence services

818
00:36:31.430 --> 00:36:33.610
and what they
were up to.

819
00:36:33.610 --> 00:36:35.540
But suddenly the
whole Democratic Party

820
00:36:35.540 --> 00:36:37.500
now seems to think that, quote,

821
00:36:37.500 --> 00:36:39.180
"intel reports"

822
00:36:39.180 --> 00:36:40.800
are so authoritative

823
00:36:41.390 --> 00:36:42.960
that people such as myself,

824
00:36:42.960 --> 00:36:46.300
who simply ask a question
about them, are Putin apologists.

825
00:36:47.160 --> 00:36:49.490
What we do know is that
for quite a while,

826
00:36:50.700 --> 00:36:53.920
intel has been leaking
to The Washington Post,

827
00:36:53.920 --> 00:36:57.360
The New York Times,
CNN and the rest in ways

828
00:36:57.360 --> 00:37:00.830
that are highly detrimental
not only to Trump as a president,

829
00:37:00.830 --> 00:37:03.270
but to Trump’s professed
Russia policy.

830
00:37:03.270 --> 00:37:06.190
So I don’t think
what Jonathan Steele says

831
00:37:06.820 --> 00:37:10.770
should be taken off
the board of consideration,

832
00:37:10.770 --> 00:37:14.580
that powerful forces
are out to make sure

833
00:37:14.580 --> 00:37:17.330
that there will be no improved
relationship with Russia.

834
00:37:17.330 --> 00:37:19.730
Now, let me just mention one thing
that you may not have noticed.

835
00:37:20.770 --> 00:37:25.100
The one achievement
that President Obama has,

836
00:37:25.100 --> 00:37:28.320
in my judgment, in addition
to the agreement with Iran

837
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:31.020
to freeze its nuclear
weapons capacity,

838
00:37:31.020 --> 00:37:32.430
was the agreement he reached

839
00:37:32.430 --> 00:37:35.010
with Putin in 2013

840
00:37:35.010 --> 00:37:37.910
to destroy Assad’s
chemical weapons.

841
00:37:37.910 --> 00:37:41.360
I trust all your folks remember that.

842
00:37:41.360 --> 00:37:45.120
And as we look back, that was a major
achievement by President Obama,

843
00:37:45.120 --> 00:37:46.720
because the option
was going to war.

844
00:37:47.370 --> 00:37:50.640
And it was made possible because
he and Putin joined hands.

845
00:37:50.640 --> 00:37:52.350
So it stands as a model,

846
00:37:52.350 --> 00:37:55.010
what might be possible
in American-Russian relations.

847
00:37:55.550 --> 00:37:56.510
What do we have now?

848
00:37:56.510 --> 00:38:00.800
We have a new narrative
in the American media

849
00:38:00.800 --> 00:38:02.170
that Putin lied,

850
00:38:02.170 --> 00:38:03.840
that Obama was tricked,

851
00:38:03.840 --> 00:38:06.030
when they said those weapons
had been destroyed.

852
00:38:06.030 --> 00:38:08.340
But that is a misrepresentation.

853
00:38:08.340 --> 00:38:10.480
Obama and Putin turned the issue

854
00:38:10.480 --> 00:38:13.220
of the weapons over
to the United Nations.

855
00:38:13.220 --> 00:38:16.170
The United Nations
has a special unit

856
00:38:16.720 --> 00:38:20.570
for collecting and destroying
weapons of mass destruction.

857
00:38:20.570 --> 00:38:23.040
They did that with Assad’s weapons.

858
00:38:23.040 --> 00:38:24.650
And it was the United Nations,

859
00:38:24.650 --> 00:38:26.730
not Putin,
who certified

860
00:38:26.730 --> 00:38:29.000
that the weapons
had been destroyed.

861
00:38:29.000 --> 00:38:32.260
Therefore, if anybody
lied—and I don’t think

862
00:38:32.260 --> 00:38:33.610
anybody did—when

863
00:38:33.610 --> 00:38:37.140
they said Assad no longer
had weapons, chemical weapons,

864
00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:39.380
it was the United Nations.
It wasn’t Putin.

865
00:38:39.380 --> 00:38:41.100
So, the least we can do,

866
00:38:41.100 --> 00:38:42.630
if we’re on the brink of war,

867
00:38:43.150 --> 00:38:45.340
as the number two
Russian leader says,

868
00:38:45.340 --> 00:38:46.810
is get our facts straight.

869
00:38:46.810 --> 00:38:50.200
AMY GOODMAN: So, Jonathan Steele,
who do you think should be the entity

870
00:38:50.200 --> 00:38:52.360
that investigates this attack?

871
00:38:52.360 --> 00:38:56.600
I also wanted to ask
why Russia supports

872
00:38:56.600 --> 00:39:00.800
the Assad regime—overall,

873
00:39:01.480 --> 00:39:03.230
what they gain
by this—and

874
00:39:03.230 --> 00:39:05.940
if you see any shift
taking place right now,

875
00:39:05.940 --> 00:39:08.690
if you see any hope for Syria.

876
00:39:10.750 --> 00:39:13.000
JONATHAN STEELE: No, I think there’s
not going to be any change.

877
00:39:13.000 --> 00:39:15.210
First of all, I mean,
Putin wouldn’t suddenly

878
00:39:15.210 --> 00:39:17.980
back down under pressure
from the United States

879
00:39:17.980 --> 00:39:19.880
telling him to dump Assad.

880
00:39:19.880 --> 00:39:21.660
That would just be
out of character

881
00:39:21.660 --> 00:39:23.920
for Putin to concede
under pressure.

882
00:39:23.920 --> 00:39:25.570
The question is:
Will he gradually

883
00:39:25.570 --> 00:39:28.030
or incrementally withdraw

884
00:39:28.030 --> 00:39:29.850
a little bit
of support from Assad?

885
00:39:29.850 --> 00:39:32.580
I don’t think that’s likely,
because, as the Russians say,

886
00:39:32.580 --> 00:39:34.900
you know, the question

887
00:39:34.900 --> 00:39:38.030
they would have
asked Tillerson yesterday,

888
00:39:38.030 --> 00:39:39.790
both Putin and Lavrov, is:

889
00:39:39.790 --> 00:39:43.240
What’s your game plan
for the post-Assad Syria?

890
00:39:43.240 --> 00:39:45.480
You know, what are you going to do?
Are you going to commit troops?

891
00:39:45.480 --> 00:39:47.080
Are you going to commit yourself

892
00:39:47.080 --> 00:39:49.610
to the post-Assad reconstruction?

893
00:39:49.610 --> 00:39:51.930
What are you going to do
to prevent chaos

894
00:39:51.930 --> 00:39:53.550
like in Iraq and Libya?

895
00:39:53.550 --> 00:39:56.780
I mean, it’s all very well
to get rid of an authoritarian ruler,

896
00:39:56.780 --> 00:39:58.050
but what happens next?

897
00:39:58.050 --> 00:40:02.450
You can’t just
leave it to chaos.

898
00:40:02.450 --> 00:40:04.700
And that’s the big question
that they will have asked.

899
00:40:04.700 --> 00:40:08.600
And so, I think there’s
no expectation, seriously,

900
00:40:08.600 --> 00:40:10.690
that they will dump Assad.

901
00:40:10.690 --> 00:40:13.520
The bad things,
from the Russian point of view,

902
00:40:13.520 --> 00:40:17.160
far exceed the good things
that could come out of that.

903
00:40:17.160 --> 00:40:18.970
There’s also the question
of reputation.

904
00:40:18.970 --> 00:40:22.590
I mean, as one Russian analyst
put it to me the other day,

905
00:40:22.590 --> 00:40:25.300
Andrey Kortunov of one
of the big think tanks

906
00:40:25.300 --> 00:40:27.370
in Moscow,
you know,

907
00:40:27.370 --> 00:40:28.830
"They may not like us very much

908
00:40:28.830 --> 00:40:30.570
in the Middle East,

909
00:40:30.570 --> 00:40:33.250
outside Syria and perhaps Iraq,

910
00:40:34.030 --> 00:40:37.870
but they at least recognize
that we stand by our friends,

911
00:40:37.870 --> 00:40:40.110
unlike some other countries
that dump them."

912
00:40:40.110 --> 00:40:42.570
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
what plan—if the U.S.,

913
00:40:42.570 --> 00:40:44.170
which is true,
doesn’t have a plan

914
00:40:44.170 --> 00:40:47.700
for what may happen if Assad goes,

915
00:40:47.700 --> 00:40:49.810
what kind of proposal

916
00:40:49.810 --> 00:40:52.190
is Russia putting forward
for this war,

917
00:40:52.190 --> 00:40:55.080
that, after all,
has gone on for six years

918
00:40:55.080 --> 00:40:56.830
and claimed half a million lives,

919
00:40:56.830 --> 00:41:00.700
displaced almost half
of Syria’s population,

920
00:41:00.700 --> 00:41:01.920
and, by all accounts,

921
00:41:01.920 --> 00:41:04.710
it appears that since
Russia’s involvement,

922
00:41:04.710 --> 00:41:07.750
the number of fatalities,
civilian casualties,

923
00:41:07.750 --> 00:41:08.970
has increased?

924
00:41:10.670 --> 00:41:12.640
JONATHAN STEELE: Well,
they’re trying to implement

925
00:41:12.640 --> 00:41:14.940
what was actually agreed
by the United States,

926
00:41:14.940 --> 00:41:17.630
and even the hard-line Gulf allies,

927
00:41:17.630 --> 00:41:20.160
in something called
the International Syria Support Group,

928
00:41:20.160 --> 00:41:23.310
which met in Vienna 18 months ago.

929
00:41:23.310 --> 00:41:25.000
And it came out with a blueprint

930
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:28.540
for a new constitution for Syria,

931
00:41:28.540 --> 00:41:31.330
for elections based on
the new constitution,

932
00:41:31.330 --> 00:41:33.640
for, in the meantime,
a coalition government,

933
00:41:33.640 --> 00:41:36.350
for a reduction in the powers
of the president, i.e.

934
00:41:36.350 --> 00:41:38.870
Assad, and handing
over more power

935
00:41:38.870 --> 00:41:41.060
to an executive government,

936
00:41:41.060 --> 00:41:42.770
which would be
a coalition government,

937
00:41:42.770 --> 00:41:44.740
and that it would be a united,

938
00:41:44.740 --> 00:41:47.800
secular—a very important
point—secular Syria.

939
00:41:47.800 --> 00:41:49.850
That was all agreed,
even by Saudi Arabia

940
00:41:49.850 --> 00:41:52.650
and the Gulf states.

941
00:41:52.650 --> 00:41:53.950
And Russia has been trying

942
00:41:53.950 --> 00:41:56.450
to bring that back
into the discussion.

943
00:41:56.450 --> 00:41:58.210
It’s all been
completely brushed aside

944
00:41:58.210 --> 00:41:59.420
and forgotten about.

945
00:41:59.420 --> 00:42:01.530
But it requires compromise,

946
00:42:01.530 --> 00:42:03.650
as Lavrov himself said yesterday.

947
00:42:03.650 --> 00:42:05.070
There has to be
a compromise.

948
00:42:05.070 --> 00:42:07.930
There have to be decisions
by Syrians themselves,

949
00:42:07.930 --> 00:42:10.010
based on a constructive dialogue.

950
00:42:10.010 --> 00:42:12.600
And that means, basically,
that the United States

951
00:42:12.600 --> 00:42:16.620
has to take away
the mirage from the rebels

952
00:42:16.620 --> 00:42:18.910
that they’re going to win
a military victory suddenly,

953
00:42:18.910 --> 00:42:20.480
and that they have to compromise.

954
00:42:20.480 --> 00:42:23.270
They have to sit down
with representatives of Damascus

955
00:42:23.270 --> 00:42:27.090
and work out some kind of
compromised deal with concessions.

956
00:42:27.090 --> 00:42:29.310
And similarly, Russia, for its part,

957
00:42:29.310 --> 00:42:31.070
will put pressure on Assad

958
00:42:31.070 --> 00:42:32.870
to make serious compromises

959
00:42:32.870 --> 00:42:34.630
in the same kind of dialogue.

960
00:42:34.630 --> 00:42:35.950
And that’s what
they were trying to do.

961
00:42:35.950 --> 00:42:38.870
And the Russians organized
this conference in Kazakhstan

962
00:42:38.870 --> 00:42:41.150
a few months ago, in Astana,
the capital,

963
00:42:41.150 --> 00:42:43.700
where they got some members
of the armed opposition

964
00:42:43.700 --> 00:42:47.210
to sit down with members
of the Damascus government.

965
00:42:47.210 --> 00:42:48.990
And so, that was a very first step.

966
00:42:48.990 --> 00:42:51.590
But we hope that will be
built on in Geneva.

967
00:42:51.590 --> 00:42:53.790
So there is option
for compromise,

968
00:42:53.790 --> 00:42:55.270
as long as this shouting match

969
00:42:55.270 --> 00:42:57.590
between Russia
and the United States,

970
00:42:57.590 --> 00:42:59.430
and these constant
accusations,

971
00:42:59.430 --> 00:43:02.540
mutual accusations,
are dampened down,

972
00:43:02.540 --> 00:43:04.960
and they get back
to proper diplomacy.

973
00:43:04.960 --> 00:43:06.960
AMY GOODMAN: Before you leave,
Jonathan Steele,

974
00:43:06.960 --> 00:43:09.330
I wanted to turn to recent
remarks President Trump

975
00:43:09.330 --> 00:43:11.110
has made on another
sensitive issue

976
00:43:11.110 --> 00:43:13.840
between the U.S. and Russia,
and that’s North Korea.

977
00:43:13.840 --> 00:43:15.100
This is Trump speaking

978
00:43:15.100 --> 00:43:18.070
to Fox News’s Maria Bartiromo
on Wednesday.

979
00:43:19.100 --> 00:43:21.900
MARIA BARTIROMO: What are we doing
right now in terms of North Korea?

980
00:43:22.700 --> 00:43:23.960
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: 
You never know, do you?

981
00:43:23.960 --> 00:43:27.830
You never know.
... We are sending an armada.

982
00:43:27.830 --> 00:43:31.660
Very powerful. We have submarines.

983
00:43:31.660 --> 00:43:32.990
Very powerful,

984
00:43:32.990 --> 00:43:36.100
far more powerful
than the aircraft carrier,

985
00:43:36.100 --> 00:43:37.310
that I can tell you.

986
00:43:37.310 --> 00:43:40.970
And we have the best
military people on Earth.

987
00:43:40.970 --> 00:43:43.250
And I will say this:

988
00:43:43.250 --> 00:43:46.950
He is doing the wrong thing.

989
00:43:46.950 --> 00:43:48.850
AMY GOODMAN: On Tuesday,
Trump tweeted, quote,

990
00:43:48.850 --> 00:43:50.100
"North Korea is looking for trouble.

991
00:43:50.100 --> 00:43:52.080
If China decides to help,
that would be great.

992
00:43:52.080 --> 00:43:54.520
If not, we will solve
the problem without them!

993
00:43:54.520 --> 00:43:57.380
U.S.A." Jonathan Steele,

994
00:43:57.380 --> 00:43:58.990
the connections
between Russia,

995
00:43:58.990 --> 00:44:00.290
China and North Korea?

996
00:44:02.380 --> 00:44:04.190
JONATHAN STEELE: Well, obviously,
Russia is, in some sense,

997
00:44:04.190 --> 00:44:05.310
an ally of North Korea.

998
00:44:05.310 --> 00:44:07.060
But they will be very worried

999
00:44:07.060 --> 00:44:08.670
by those comments
that you’ve just played,

1000
00:44:08.670 --> 00:44:12.130
because they show a kind
of unilateralism by the United States

1001
00:44:12.130 --> 00:44:14.020
instead of going to
the United Nations,

1002
00:44:14.020 --> 00:44:16.760
use of military force
rather than diplomacy

1003
00:44:16.760 --> 00:44:20.060
and negotiation,
and unpredictability.

1004
00:44:20.060 --> 00:44:22.480
This is—these are
all the hallmarks

1005
00:44:22.480 --> 00:44:25.100
of a regime
or government in Washington

1006
00:44:25.100 --> 00:44:27.150
which is,
from the Russian point of view,

1007
00:44:27.150 --> 00:44:29.190
extremely dangerous, provocative

1008
00:44:29.190 --> 00:44:31.700
and almost out of control.

1009
00:44:31.700 --> 00:44:34.040
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Stephen Cohen,

1010
00:44:34.760 --> 00:44:36.940
how likely do you think there

1011
00:44:36.940 --> 00:44:40.030
is right now of a direct confrontation

1012
00:44:40.030 --> 00:44:41.950
between the U.S. and Russia?

1013
00:44:45.730 --> 00:44:47.120
STEPHEN COHEN: If I knew
the answer to that,

1014
00:44:47.120 --> 00:44:49.490
I’d go to the racetrack
and redeem a lot of the money

1015
00:44:49.490 --> 00:44:51.260
I lost over the years.

1016
00:44:51.260 --> 00:44:54.350
But I would say way too close,
way too possible.

1017
00:44:55.490 --> 00:44:59.250
The other new Cold War
fronts are heating up.

1018
00:44:59.250 --> 00:45:01.580
That’s the North Baltic area,

1019
00:45:01.580 --> 00:45:03.430
the small Baltic states and Poland,

1020
00:45:03.940 --> 00:45:07.450
where NATO is building up
beyond reason, Ukraine,

1021
00:45:07.450 --> 00:45:10.790
where the American-supported
government in Kiev

1022
00:45:10.790 --> 00:45:12.180
is melting down.

1023
00:45:12.180 --> 00:45:13.430
But, of course, in Syria.

1024
00:45:14.080 --> 00:45:15.650
We have a lot of troops there.

1025
00:45:15.650 --> 00:45:18.340
We don’t know how many.
They call it special op troops.

1026
00:45:18.340 --> 00:45:21.580
But there’s probably
more than they’ve told us.

1027
00:45:21.580 --> 00:45:23.360
American airplanes are flying.

1028
00:45:24.250 --> 00:45:27.900
The battle for Raqqa,
which is the symbolic,

1029
00:45:27.900 --> 00:45:30.770
or real, Islamic State
capital in Syria,

1030
00:45:30.770 --> 00:45:32.180
is coming up.

1031
00:45:32.180 --> 00:45:36.000
Both sides want to take it
—the American coalition,

1032
00:45:36.000 --> 00:45:38.110
the Russian-Syrian-Iranian coalition.

1033
00:45:38.640 --> 00:45:42.510
Ideally, they’d cooperate
and take the city together.

1034
00:45:42.510 --> 00:45:44.220
But if they compete
to take the city,

1035
00:45:44.220 --> 00:45:48.610
you’re going to have American
and Russian aircraft flying

1036
00:45:48.610 --> 00:45:50.160
in a very close area.

1037
00:45:50.160 --> 00:45:52.460
Do we have 30 seconds
for a final word?

1038
00:45:54.070 --> 00:45:56.340
Jonathan was right
about the Russian

1039
00:45:56.340 --> 00:45:58.950
unwillingness to abandon Assad.

1040
00:45:58.950 --> 00:46:01.160
But I believe, in the Russian mind
—and I believe

1041
00:46:01.160 --> 00:46:04.790
it’s correct—it’s a broader,
more profound issue.

1042
00:46:05.460 --> 00:46:08.340
They’re not interested
in Assad as a person.

1043
00:46:08.340 --> 00:46:09.940
And they have said
repeatedly,

1044
00:46:09.940 --> 00:46:12.220
Assad can go, eventually.

1045
00:46:12.220 --> 00:46:14.290
And they say leave it
to the Syrian people.

1046
00:46:14.290 --> 00:46:18.130
And, by the way, that’s what Tillerson
said about it a week ago,

1047
00:46:18.130 --> 00:46:20.230
until he flipped—leave
it to the Syrian people.

1048
00:46:20.850 --> 00:46:25.740
For Russia—and try to think
about this—Assad

1049
00:46:25.740 --> 00:46:27.250
is the Syrian state.

1050
00:46:27.990 --> 00:46:29.920
These are highly
personalized states

1051
00:46:29.920 --> 00:46:31.290
in these regions of the world.

1052
00:46:32.400 --> 00:46:35.400
If you kill Assad—and
that’s what they’re talking

1053
00:46:35.400 --> 00:46:37.040
about—or arrest him,

1054
00:46:37.040 --> 00:46:39.150
the Syrian state will collapse,

1055
00:46:39.150 --> 00:46:42.000
just as it did in Iraq and in Libya,

1056
00:46:42.000 --> 00:46:44.800
when we basically
assassinated the leaders

1057
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:46.830
of those countries.

1058
00:46:46.830 --> 00:46:49.020
If the Syrian state collapses,

1059
00:46:49.020 --> 00:46:50.830
it means the Syrian Army,

1060
00:46:50.830 --> 00:46:53.320
which is doing most
of the fighting on the ground

1061
00:46:53.320 --> 00:46:55.670
against the Islamic State,
will collapse.

1062
00:46:55.670 --> 00:46:57.750
Many will desert
to the Syrian Army.

1063
00:46:57.750 --> 00:46:59.670
So I would ask you,

1064
00:46:59.670 --> 00:47:02.840
I would ask all these Americans
who vilify Assad,

1065
00:47:02.840 --> 00:47:05.820
I would ask all
your listeners and viewers:

1066
00:47:06.950 --> 00:47:09.070
If you destroy the Syrian state,

1067
00:47:09.730 --> 00:47:13.080
who’s going to do the fighting
against terrorists in Syria?

1068
00:47:14.390 --> 00:47:16.830
Do you ask—are you going to
ask Russia to send troops?

1069
00:47:16.830 --> 00:47:18.240
Are we going to send troops?

1070
00:47:18.240 --> 00:47:22.330
So, for Russia—and this
is the point—it’s not Assad.

1071
00:47:22.330 --> 00:47:25.630
They could give a hoot about
what happens to him and their family.

1072
00:47:25.630 --> 00:47:27.360
It’s what happens
to the Syrian state.

1073
00:47:27.360 --> 00:47:30.040
And that’s why they
will stand with Assad

1074
00:47:30.810 --> 00:47:33.960
until there is some kind
of military victory,

1075
00:47:33.960 --> 00:47:37.210
and then a so-called
political peace process begins,

1076
00:47:37.210 --> 00:47:38.480
and then Assad is on his own.

1077
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:41.830
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
one last question, Stephen Cohen.

1078
00:47:42.670 --> 00:47:45.240
As you say, if, like the Russians say,

1079
00:47:45.240 --> 00:47:47.560
that Syrians will be
able to decide,

1080
00:47:47.560 --> 00:47:49.320
or should be able to decide,

1081
00:47:49.320 --> 00:47:51.250
what happens to Assad—well,
first of all,

1082
00:47:51.250 --> 00:47:54.390
Assad has not ceded power
to his own people

1083
00:47:54.390 --> 00:47:56.640
for many, many years.
STEPHEN COHEN: Yes, right.

1084
00:47:56.640 --> 00:47:58.790
NERMEEN SHAIKH: There’s no reason
to think that his position will change.

1085
00:47:59.380 --> 00:48:01.220
And second, I mean,
it’s an argument

1086
00:48:01.220 --> 00:48:03.930
that’s commonly made
by the U.S. government

1087
00:48:03.930 --> 00:48:06.010
when supporting
dictatorial regimes,

1088
00:48:06.010 --> 00:48:07.910
that that regime is the only thing

1089
00:48:07.910 --> 00:48:12.670
standing between them
and an Islamist, terrorist,

1090
00:48:13.240 --> 00:48:14.990
extremist government.

1091
00:48:14.990 --> 00:48:16.410
STEPHEN COHEN: Well,
it’s an old American habit.

1092
00:48:17.310 --> 00:48:19.650
I’m older than you guys.
But during the Cold War,

1093
00:48:19.650 --> 00:48:22.370
we supported a lot
of very bad leaders

1094
00:48:22.370 --> 00:48:24.560
and said they stood
between us and communism.

1095
00:48:25.490 --> 00:48:29.790
I think—but we don’t get this
clarity out of Washington,

1096
00:48:29.790 --> 00:48:31.540
we didn’t get it
under Obama,

1097
00:48:31.540 --> 00:48:33.820
not getting today—that
the number one threat

1098
00:48:33.820 --> 00:48:37.460
to all of us in the world today
is international terrorism.

1099
00:48:37.460 --> 00:48:39.300
You know, couple weeks ago,

1100
00:48:39.300 --> 00:48:41.190
there was the tragedy in St. Petersburg,

1101
00:48:41.980 --> 00:48:43.680
where folks going to work,

1102
00:48:43.680 --> 00:48:45.900
kids going to school were blown up

1103
00:48:45.900 --> 00:48:49.270
and killed in a St.
Petersburg, Russian subway.

1104
00:48:49.270 --> 00:48:51.080
That could happen
here very easily.

1105
00:48:51.080 --> 00:48:52.540
You can’t protect subways.

1106
00:48:52.540 --> 00:48:54.000
You simply can’t.

1107
00:48:54.000 --> 00:48:57.490
The one thing the Russians
have is immense experience

1108
00:48:57.490 --> 00:49:00.390
in dealing with terrorism,
inside their own country and abroad.

1109
00:49:00.390 --> 00:49:02.700
They’ve had more,
outside the Middle East,

1110
00:49:02.700 --> 00:49:05.610
casualties of terrorism
than any country in the world.

1111
00:49:05.610 --> 00:49:07.420
We need an alliance with Russia.

1112
00:49:07.930 --> 00:49:10.220
That’s what this is all about.

1113
00:49:10.220 --> 00:49:11.460
Are we going to make an alliance

1114
00:49:11.460 --> 00:49:14.130
with Russia to war

1115
00:49:14.130 --> 00:49:16.500
against terrorism in Syria
and elsewhere, or not?

1116
00:49:16.500 --> 00:49:17.880
That’s the issue today.

1117
00:49:17.880 --> 00:49:19.700
AMY GOODMAN: Well, we want to thank you,
Stephen Cohen,

1118
00:49:19.700 --> 00:49:21.220
professor emeritus
of Russian studies

1119
00:49:21.220 --> 00:49:24.190
and politics at New York University
and Princeton University.

1120
00:49:24.190 --> 00:49:25.520
And thanks so much
to Jonathan Steele,

1121
00:49:25.520 --> 00:49:28.110
former Moscow correspondent
for The Guardian, chief reporter

1122
00:49:28.110 --> 00:49:29.990
at the website Middle East Eye.

1123
00:49:29.990 --> 00:49:31.970
This is Democracy Now!
When we come back,

1124
00:49:31.970 --> 00:49:35.370
Sean Spicer’s comments
comparing Assad to Hitler,

1125
00:49:35.370 --> 00:49:38.420
saying even Hitler,
despicable as he was,

1126
00:49:38.420 --> 00:49:40.260
did not use chemical weapons,

1127
00:49:40.260 --> 00:49:41.460
did not use gas.

1128
00:49:41.460 --> 00:49:43.920
Stay with us.
[break]

1129
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:44.700
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That’s Stevie Wonder

1130
00:49:44.700 --> 00:51:04.070
singing

1131
00:51:04.070 --> 00:51:05.500
"Happy Birthday,"

1132
00:51:05.500 --> 00:51:08.400
on this very special day,
Amy Goodman’s birthday.

1133
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:10.340
AMY GOODMAN: Oh, my god. OK.

1134
00:51:10.340 --> 00:51:11.590
This is Democracy Now!,

1135
00:51:11.590 --> 00:51:14.150
democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

1136
00:51:14.150 --> 00:51:16.230
I’m Amy Goodman,
with Nermeen Shaikh.

1137
00:51:16.230 --> 00:51:18.520
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Lawmakers
and Jewish organizations,

1138
00:51:18.520 --> 00:51:20.310
including the Anne Frank Center,

1139
00:51:20.310 --> 00:51:22.800
are continuing to call
for the White House spokesman,

1140
00:51:22.800 --> 00:51:24.750
Sean Spicer, to be fired,

1141
00:51:24.750 --> 00:51:27.870
after Spicer compared Syrian President

1142
00:51:27.870 --> 00:51:29.950
Bashar al-Assad
to Hitler

1143
00:51:29.950 --> 00:51:33.890
and falsely claimed Hitler
never used chemical weapons.

1144
00:51:33.890 --> 00:51:36.320
This is Spicer speaking on Tuesday,

1145
00:51:36.320 --> 00:51:39.600
the first day
of the Jewish holiday of Passover.

1146
00:51:40.480 --> 00:51:43.180
PRESS SECRETARY SEAN SPICER: You look,
we didn’t use chemical weapons

1147
00:51:43.180 --> 00:51:44.860
in World War II.

1148
00:51:44.860 --> 00:51:46.860
You know, you had a—you know,

1149
00:51:47.930 --> 00:51:49.530
someone as despicable as Hitler,

1150
00:51:49.530 --> 00:51:53.670
who didn’t even sink to the—to
using chemical weapons.

1151
00:51:54.170 --> 00:51:55.800
So you have to,

1152
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:57.890
if you’re Russia,
ask yourself:

1153
00:51:57.890 --> 00:51:59.680
Is this a country that you,
and a regime,

1154
00:51:59.680 --> 00:52:01.420
that you want
to align yourself with?

1155
00:52:01.420 --> 00:52:03.980
AMY GOODMAN: In fact, the Nazis
systematically used poison gas

1156
00:52:03.980 --> 00:52:07.520
as part of its genocide
of 6 million Jews and others.

1157
00:52:07.520 --> 00:52:09.300
The Nazis began
experimenting with gas

1158
00:52:09.300 --> 00:52:10.760
with the specific purpose of carrying

1159
00:52:10.760 --> 00:52:12.350
out mass murder
in the late ’30s.

1160
00:52:12.350 --> 00:52:14.220
After the Nazis invaded
the Soviet Union,

1161
00:52:14.220 --> 00:52:15.480
they deployed gas vans

1162
00:52:15.480 --> 00:52:18.430
to kill hundreds
of thousands of people.

1163
00:52:18.430 --> 00:52:20.390
By 1942, the Nazis had set up

1164
00:52:20.390 --> 00:52:22.090
a series of concentration camps

1165
00:52:22.090 --> 00:52:25.270
where gas chambers were the main
method of killing people.

1166
00:52:25.270 --> 00:52:29.020
At its peak, as many as
6,000 people, mostly Jews,

1167
00:52:29.020 --> 00:52:30.780
were gassed to death every day

1168
00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:33.560
at Auschwitz concentration camp alone.

1169
00:52:33.560 --> 00:52:35.680
During his comments,
Spicer also referred

1170
00:52:35.680 --> 00:52:36.970
to Nazi concentration camps

1171
00:52:36.970 --> 00:52:39.470
as "holocaust centers."

1172
00:52:39.470 --> 00:52:41.160
Hours later, Spicer apologized,

1173
00:52:41.160 --> 00:52:43.540
although he made a number of mistakes
during his apology,

1174
00:52:43.540 --> 00:52:45.310
including mispronouncing
Syrian President

1175
00:52:45.310 --> 00:52:46.540
Bashar al-Assad’s name.

1176
00:52:47.300 --> 00:52:49.650
PRESS SECRETARY SEAN SPICER: 
I mistakenly used an inappropriate

1177
00:52:49.650 --> 00:52:51.560
and insensitive reference
to the Holocaust,

1178
00:52:51.560 --> 00:52:55.120
for which, frankly, there is no—there
is no comparison.

1179
00:52:55.120 --> 00:52:56.920
And for that, I apologize.

1180
00:52:56.920 --> 00:52:58.240
It was a mistake to do that.

1181
00:52:58.240 --> 00:53:00.380
I needed to make sure
that I clarified

1182
00:53:00.380 --> 00:53:02.330
and not was
in any way,

1183
00:53:02.330 --> 00:53:03.890
shape or form any more
of a distraction

1184
00:53:03.890 --> 00:53:06.490
from the president’s
decisive action in Syria

1185
00:53:06.490 --> 00:53:09.130
and the attempts that he’s making
to destabilize the region.

1186
00:53:09.130 --> 00:53:12.700
There’s no way that I can see
a stable and peaceful Syria

1187
00:53:12.700 --> 00:53:14.830
with Bashad al-Asiya—Bashar

1188
00:53:14.830 --> 00:53:17.560
al-Saad in charge.
WOLF BLITZER: Bashar al-Assad.

1189
00:53:17.560 --> 00:53:20.330
I know you’ve mispronounced
his name a few times,

1190
00:53:20.330 --> 00:53:22.140
but it’s Bashar al-Assad.

1191
00:53:22.870 --> 00:53:26.090
NERMEEN SHAIKH: That’s Sean Spicer
speaking to Wolf Blitzer.

1192
00:53:26.090 --> 00:53:29.080
Spicer later said he meant
to say President Trump

1193
00:53:29.080 --> 00:53:31.610
was seeking to stabilize the region,

1194
00:53:31.610 --> 00:53:33.410
not to destabilize it.

1195
00:53:33.410 --> 00:53:35.970
On Wednesday,
Spicer apologized again,

1196
00:53:35.970 --> 00:53:37.960
saying he regrets that he, quote,

1197
00:53:37.960 --> 00:53:39.470
"let the president down."

1198
00:53:40.480 --> 00:53:42.560
PRESS SECRETARY SEAN SPICER: 
I made a mistake.

1199
00:53:42.560 --> 00:53:44.440
There’s no either way—I mean,
there’s no other way to say it.

1200
00:53:44.440 --> 00:53:47.320
I got into a topic
that I shouldn’t have.

1201
00:53:47.320 --> 00:53:48.860
And—and I screwed up.

1202
00:53:49.390 --> 00:53:51.460
AMY GOODMAN: On Wednesday,
the Anne Frank Center

1203
00:53:51.460 --> 00:53:54.220
for Mutual Respect
posted on Facebook, quote,

1204
00:53:54.220 --> 00:53:55.500
"That’s not an apology.

1205
00:53:55.500 --> 00:53:57.230
That’s a bungled
political strategy

1206
00:53:57.230 --> 00:53:58.980
only in response
to a public outcry.

1207
00:53:58.980 --> 00:54:00.100
Spicer needs to go."

1208
00:54:00.100 --> 00:54:02.020
Well, for more, we’re joined
by Steven Goldstein,

1209
00:54:02.020 --> 00:54:03.730
the executive director
of the Anne Frank Center

1210
00:54:03.730 --> 00:54:05.370
for Mutual Respect.

1211
00:54:05.370 --> 00:54:07.300
Steven Goldstein,
welcome to Democracy Now!

1212
00:54:07.300 --> 00:54:07.750
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: Great to be here.

1213
00:54:07.750 --> 00:54:09.400
AMY GOODMAN: Why is this
so important to you?

1214
00:54:09.400 --> 00:54:11.930
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: OK.
Coming on Passover,

1215
00:54:11.930 --> 00:54:13.290
I, like many other Jews,

1216
00:54:13.290 --> 00:54:16.200
were—was with my family
during two seders.

1217
00:54:16.730 --> 00:54:19.800
My entire family wanted
to throw up in disbelief.

1218
00:54:19.800 --> 00:54:22.650
Passover tells the story
of Jews who were oppressed,

1219
00:54:22.650 --> 00:54:24.260
and here we have
the press secretary

1220
00:54:24.260 --> 00:54:26.460
to the president
of the United States

1221
00:54:26.460 --> 00:54:28.150
denying that Adolf Hitler

1222
00:54:28.150 --> 00:54:30.450
gassed millions of Jews.

1223
00:54:30.450 --> 00:54:32.460
That means Sean Spicer has to go.

1224
00:54:32.460 --> 00:54:33.940
He has to be fired.

1225
00:54:33.940 --> 00:54:35.740
And here’s why, Amy.

1226
00:54:35.740 --> 00:54:39.270
Either Sean Spicer’s comments
were a matter of ignorance,

1227
00:54:39.270 --> 00:54:44.310
incompetence or prejudice—or all three
or any combination thereof.

1228
00:54:44.310 --> 00:54:47.130
That doesn’t make one fit
to be press secretary.

1229
00:54:47.130 --> 00:54:48.390
In fact, that doesn’t make one fit

1230
00:54:48.390 --> 00:54:50.620
to serve in government whatsoever.

1231
00:54:50.620 --> 00:54:54.040
Sean Spicer is an embarrassment
to the United States of America.

1232
00:54:54.040 --> 00:54:55.510
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
what about those who say,

1233
00:54:55.510 --> 00:54:58.840
including a former spokesman,
Ari Fleischer,

1234
00:54:58.840 --> 00:55:01.080
that such mistakes
are commonly made by people

1235
00:55:01.080 --> 00:55:02.820
who speak extemporaneously?

1236
00:55:02.820 --> 00:55:04.060
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: Oh, well,
here’s the problem.

1237
00:55:04.060 --> 00:55:06.000
That wasn’t just a mere mistake.

1238
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:07.580
That comes in the context

1239
00:55:07.580 --> 00:55:10.660
of this administration’s
grotesque insensitivity

1240
00:55:10.660 --> 00:55:14.340
to Jews through
anti-Semitic nonresponses.

1241
00:55:14.340 --> 00:55:16.390
Let’s not forget
that on International

1242
00:55:16.390 --> 00:55:20.090
Holocaust Remembrance Day in January,
this administration

1243
00:55:20.090 --> 00:55:22.860
refused to include Jews
in Holocaust remembrance.

1244
00:55:22.860 --> 00:55:25.160
And I can’t even begin to tell you

1245
00:55:25.160 --> 00:55:26.490
how many times
this president

1246
00:55:26.490 --> 00:55:27.830
has been offensive

1247
00:55:27.830 --> 00:55:29.340
to other oppressed communities,

1248
00:55:29.340 --> 00:55:31.110
including Muslims,

1249
00:55:31.110 --> 00:55:32.720
including people of color.

1250
00:55:32.720 --> 00:55:34.690
So, this is a pattern.

1251
00:55:34.690 --> 00:55:36.510
This is not a mere mistake.

1252
00:55:36.510 --> 00:55:38.880
AMY GOODMAN: So you have Sean Spicer,

1253
00:55:38.880 --> 00:55:40.620
who apparently apologized,

1254
00:55:40.620 --> 00:55:45.860
called the billionaire
Republican donor Sheldon Adelson.

1255
00:55:45.860 --> 00:55:48.650
Politico reports Adelson’s
office issued a statement,

1256
00:55:48.650 --> 00:55:50.680
confirming "Sean called
shortly after and said

1257
00:55:50.680 --> 00:55:53.250
he made a terrible mistake
and apologized

1258
00:55:53.250 --> 00:55:54.920
if he was offensive."

1259
00:55:55.520 --> 00:55:56.850
Your response to—
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: I’m laughing,

1260
00:55:56.850 --> 00:55:59.810
because it shows
you—Sheldon Adelson

1261
00:55:59.810 --> 00:56:01.450
is the recipient of an apology.

1262
00:56:01.450 --> 00:56:02.780
That says it all, doesn’t it?

1263
00:56:02.780 --> 00:56:04.110
AMY GOODMAN: Well,
explain what you mean.

1264
00:56:04.110 --> 00:56:06.040
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: You know,
Sheldon Adelson

1265
00:56:06.040 --> 00:56:09.380
is a prominent Republican donor.

1266
00:56:10.010 --> 00:56:14.000
And apologizing to a prominent
Republican donor politicizes

1267
00:56:14.000 --> 00:56:15.610
what Sean Spicer did.

1268
00:56:15.610 --> 00:56:18.280
Sean Spicer needs to apologize

1269
00:56:18.280 --> 00:56:20.510
to the entire Jewish community

1270
00:56:20.510 --> 00:56:23.970
and to, frankly, all people of goodwill.

1271
00:56:23.970 --> 00:56:27.350
And Sean Spicer really
didn’t apologize, folks.

1272
00:56:27.350 --> 00:56:30.330
As you said, Amy,
when you have to pull teeth

1273
00:56:30.330 --> 00:56:31.790
to get an apology,

1274
00:56:31.790 --> 00:56:34.660
and it takes three attempts
to pull teeth,

1275
00:56:34.660 --> 00:56:38.040
that’s what you call an apology
by committee behind the scenes.

1276
00:56:38.040 --> 00:56:39.550
You have the White House staff

1277
00:56:39.550 --> 00:56:41.780
looking at the public outcry, saying,

1278
00:56:41.780 --> 00:56:44.520
"Sean, you better really
clarify your apology."

1279
00:56:44.520 --> 00:56:46.320
Couldn’t do it once.
Couldn’t do it twice.

1280
00:56:46.320 --> 00:56:50.000
Took him three times,
pulling teeth.

1281
00:56:50.000 --> 00:56:51.370
A national embarrassment.

1282
00:56:51.370 --> 00:56:53.990
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well, what about Trump’s
constant refrain—just

1283
00:56:53.990 --> 00:56:56.930
in the last 30 seconds—that
his daughter is Jewish,

1284
00:56:56.930 --> 00:56:58.220
his son-in-law is Jewish—
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: You know what?

1285
00:56:58.220 --> 00:56:59.330
NERMEEN SHAIKH: —and therefore
he cannot be anti-Semitic?

1286
00:56:59.330 --> 00:57:01.610
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: Can I tell you
something? It’s so offensive

1287
00:57:01.610 --> 00:57:04.420
when Donald Trump trots
out his daughter

1288
00:57:04.420 --> 00:57:08.020
and his son-in-law
as mere talking points.

1289
00:57:08.020 --> 00:57:10.370
Is that what Donald Trump
does in response

1290
00:57:10.370 --> 00:57:12.420
to charges of anti-Semitism?

1291
00:57:12.420 --> 00:57:16.130
He trots out his token
relatives who are Jewish?

1292
00:57:16.130 --> 00:57:18.060
That, in itself, is anti-Semitic.

1293
00:57:18.630 --> 00:57:21.170
AMY GOODMAN: Sean Spicer’s reference
to "holocaust centers"?

1294
00:57:21.170 --> 00:57:22.560
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: Yeah,
what is a holocaust center?

1295
00:57:22.560 --> 00:57:25.700
I mean, I’ve never heard of that.
Is that a community center?

1296
00:57:25.700 --> 00:57:29.700
That makes complete light
of concentration camps.

1297
00:57:29.700 --> 00:57:32.110
And it shows Sean Spicer’s ignorance.

1298
00:57:32.110 --> 00:57:35.450
Has this man never heard
of the phrase

1299
00:57:35.450 --> 00:57:37.330
"concentration camp"?

1300
00:57:37.330 --> 00:57:40.790
If he hasn’t, he’s been through
some very bad education in his lifetime.

1301
00:57:40.790 --> 00:57:42.890
And if that’s the case,
he should have gotten educated

1302
00:57:42.890 --> 00:57:45.140
before he took his job.

1303
00:57:45.140 --> 00:57:47.880
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Well,
before we end today’s show,

1304
00:57:48.390 --> 00:57:50.880
on behalf of everyone
at Democracy Now!,

1305
00:57:50.880 --> 00:57:53.150
we’d like to wish
Amy Goodman a very,

1306
00:57:53.150 --> 00:57:57.130
very happy birthday.
STEVEN GOLDSTEIN: Happy birthday.

1307
00:57:57.130 --> 00:57:58.670
AMY GOODMAN: Thank you
very much, Nermeen.

1308
00:57:58.670 --> 00:57:59.940
Thank you, Nermeen.

1309
00:58:01.420 --> 00:58:04.140
That wasn’t part of what we were
supposed to be doing right now.

1310
00:58:04.140 --> 00:58:06.450
But I want to thank
Steven Goldstein for joining us,

1311
00:58:06.450 --> 00:58:08.820
executive director
of the Anne Frank Center

1312
00:58:08.820 --> 00:58:10.470
for Mutual Respect.

1313
00:58:10.470 --> 00:58:12.450
And we’ll link to
our previous interview

1314
00:58:20.970 --> 00:59:01.190
with you

1315
00:59:01.190 --> 00:59:02.060
at democracynow.org.