WEBVTT

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From New York City,

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the epicenter
of the coronavirus epidemic,

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this is Democracy Now!

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Now, at this point, we —
our cases in New York City

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constitute about 54%,

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54% of the total
in the state of New York,

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and about 32%, almost a third,
of the cases

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in the United States of America.

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As New York hospitals see
a surge in coronavirus cases,

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medical workers report growing
shortages of protective gear.

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A nurse who tested positive
after treating patients

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with the highly
contagious disease has died.

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We’ll get an update
from a New York City

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emergency room doctor,

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Craig Spencer,
who’s also a survivor of Ebola,

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which he contracted while
fighting its outbreak in Africa.

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Then, senator,
presidential candidate

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Bernie Sanders successfully
fought to strengthen assistance

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to laid-off workers
in the $2 trillion

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emergency relief bill
passed by the Senate,

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even as he warned about the
bill’s corporate bailout fund.

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I am very, very, very concerned
about a $500 billion

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that will go out
to the corporate world without —

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let me underline, without —

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the accountability
and transparency that is needed.

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And as the coronavirus pandemic
continues to spread

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around the world,
we’ll look at India,

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which is not under the largest
lockdown in human history

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with 1.3 billion people ordered
to shelter in place.

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We’ll speak with Amitav Ghosh,
author of The Great Derangement:

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Climate Change
and the Unthinkable.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

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The War and Peace Report.
I’m Amy Goodman.

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The United States Senate has
voted unanimously to approve

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a record-shattering $2.2
trillion emergency relief

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package to battle
the unprecedented economic shock

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of the coronavirus pandemic.
The House of Representatives

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is set to vote on
the legislation on Friday,

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and President Trump
has promised to sign it

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as soon as it reaches his desk.

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The bailout package

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would massively expand
unemployment benefits,

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providing laid-off workers
up to 100% of their salary

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and health insurance benefits
for four months.

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Freelancers and gig
economy workers

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would be eligible
for unemployment benefits

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for the first time ever.

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Over $300 billion would go
toward direct cash payments

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to most Americans,

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with one-time checks of $1,200
for adults and $500 per child.

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States and municipalities
would receive $150 billion

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in direct aid;

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companies would receive
$221 billion in tax benefits;

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$117 billion
would fund hospitals

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and veterans’ healthcare;
and a half-trillion-dollar fund

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would provide loans and loan
guarantees for corporations.

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Vermont senator and presidential
candidate Bernie Sanders,

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who successfully fought to
strengthen the bill’s assistance

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to laid-off workers,
voted "yes" even as he warned

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about the bill’s corporate
bailout fund.

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Sen. Bernie Sanders:

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"We do not need,
at this moment in history,

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to provide a massive amount
of corporate welfare

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to large profitable
corporations.

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I think as many of you
are aware,

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you have industries like
the airlines industry,

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among others, that have
provided for stock buybacks,

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billions and billions of dollars
for stock buybacks.

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They spent all their cash
rewarding themselves

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and their stockholders.

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And lo and behold, today
they need a major bailout."

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The Senate’s historic vote
just before midnight

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Wednesday was 96 to 0,
with four senators absent.

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Just minutes
before the roll call,

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Republican Senator John Thune
announced he was feeling ill

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and would return to his home
in South Dakota.

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Three other senators were also
absent due to the coronavirus:

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Rand Paul of Kentucky,
who has tested positive,

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and Utah Senators Mike Lee
and Mitt Romney,

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who are in self-quarantine.

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Here in New York, the epicenter
of the coronavirus outbreak

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in the United States,

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hospitals are seeing
the same surge in cases

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that overwhelmed
healthcare systems in China,

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Italy and Spain.

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Refrigerated trucks and tents

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have been stationed
outside some hospitals

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to hold the bodies of the dead
as morgues fill up.

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In just 24 hours on Tuesday,
13 people reportedly died

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at Elmhurst Hospital Center
in Queens.

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New York City
is reporting 366 deaths

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and over 33,000
confirmed cases —

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though the number
is likely far higher

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due to a critical
lack of tests.

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More than 4,000
coronavirus patients

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have been hospitalized
in New York,

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where a leaked
FEMA briefing shows

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all 1,800 intensive
care beds in the city

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are expected
to be full by Friday.

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We’ll have more on
the healthcare crisis

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here in New York
after headlines,

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when we’ll speak
with Dr. Craig Spencer,

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director of global health
in emergency medicine

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at Columbia University
Medical Center.

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Across the United States,
new coronavirus infections

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continued to increase
exponentially,

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with 13,000 newly confirmed
cases reported Wednesday,

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pushing the nationwide
total above 68,000.

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Over a thousand people
have died.

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Louisiana, with one of
the fastest infection rates

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in the world,

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marked its largest
one-day increase,

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bringing its toll to 65 dead
and nearly 2,000 infected.

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In neighboring Mississippi,
Republican Governor Tate Reeves

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defied calls for an emergency
stay-at-home order,

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declaring, "Mississippi is never
going to be China."

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The Washington Post
reports 140 U.S.

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nursing homes have recorded
at least one coronavirus case.

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The Pentagon has ordered
a 60-day freeze

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on troop movements overseas,

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with at least 415 Department
of Defense

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employees testing positive
for coronavirus.

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Attorney General William Barr
has directed federal prosecutors

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to charge
anyone deliberately spreading,

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or threatening to spread,
coronavirus with terrorism.

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Amazon says it will keep
its massive fulfillment centers

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open amid a surge
of online orders,

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after workers in at least
eight Amazon warehouses

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around the U.S. tested positive
for COVID-19.

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In Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania,
hundreds of sanitation workers

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held a wildcat strike Wednesday

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demanding more protection
from the virus.

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This is one of the workers,
Sheldon White.

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Sheldon White:

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"We want better equipment,
protective gear.

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We have no mask.
We want hazard pay.

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Hazard pay is very important.
Why?

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Because we have high copayments
for any type of bill.

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We risk our life. Every time
we grab a garbage bag,

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there could be a needle
or something in there."

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Tony Award-winning
playwright Terrence McNally

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has died in Florida
of complications from COVID-19.

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McNally’s career
spanned six decades

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and included
celebrated productions like

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"Kiss of the Spider Woman"

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and "Love!
Valour! Compassion!"

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McNally was
an openly gay writer

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whose plays tackled issues
of love, homophobia

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and the HIV/AIDS crisis.
He was 81 years old.

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Celebrated chef Floyd Cardoz

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has died
from a coronavirus infection.

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Cardoz was the first chef born
and raised in India

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to head a major kitchen
in New York City, Tabla.

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In the Dominican Republic,

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acclaimed fashion designer
Jenny Polanco

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has died from complications
of COVID-19.

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Polanco’s career
spanned four decades,

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and she was a regular fixture
at Miami Fashion Week.

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In Geneva, the director-general

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of the World
Health Organization on Wednesday

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urged world leaders
to take strong actions

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to end the scourge of
coronavirus sweeping the globe,

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as global confirmed cases
approached a half a million.

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Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus:

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"We have overcome many pandemics
and crises before.

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We will overcome
this one, too.

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The question is how large
a price we will pay.

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Already we have lost
more than 16,000 lives.

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We know we will lose more.

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How many more will be determined
by the decisions we make

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and the actions we take now."

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In Italy, the nation
hardest hit by the pandemic,

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the death toll has topped 7,500.
But for the fourth straight day,

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the pace of new coronavirus
cases fell Wednesday,

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raising hopes
that a nationwide lockdown

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is beginning to flatten
the curve of infections.

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Spain announced 738
coronavirus new deaths

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Wednesday, surpassing
China’s death toll

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with over 3,600 fatalities.

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In China, authorities have
lifted restrictions

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on millions of residents
of Hubei province

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— the original epicenter
of the pandemic —

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although the provincial capital
Wuhan remains on lockdown.

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Chinese officials say
new cases of COVID-19

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have all but stopped in Hubei,

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but some observers question
that assessment

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and fear a potential
second wave of cases.

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In cities across India,

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police are using violence
to crack down

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on curfew violators,
beating and whipping anyone

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flouting a nationwide lockdown
for 1.3 billion people.

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Viral videos showed

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Indian police forcing groups
of men to do squats

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and pushups as punishment.

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India’s bus and train services
have been canceled,

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creating a crisis for thousands
of migrant workers

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trapped in big cities.

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There are widespread
reports of hoarding,

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raising fears of shortages
of food, medicine and supplies.

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We’ll have more on
India’s coronavirus crisis

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later in the broadcast.

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In Kosovo, lawmakers ousted
Prime Minister Albin

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Kurti in a no-confidence vote
Wednesday over his refusal

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to declare a state
of emergency over coronavirus.

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In Chile, with over 1,000
confirmed cases,

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large parts of the capital
Santiago

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will go into lockdown to slow
the spread of the coronavirus.

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Earlier this month,
fears over the pandemic

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ended five months
of large-scale protests

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demanding the resignation
of President Sebastián Piñera.

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In Stockholm, Sweden,
17-year-old climate activist

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Greta Thunberg said
she "very likely" had COVID-19

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and has since recovered.

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Thunberg said she experienced
a very mild illness,

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while her father

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Svante experienced
much more intense symptoms.

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In New Zealand, Prime
Minister Jacinda

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Ardern asked her nation’s
5 million residents to behave

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as though they were contagious,
as a sweeping nationwide

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"remain at home" policy

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came into effect
at midnight Thursday.

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Prime Minister Jacinda
Ardern:

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"If you have any questions
about what you can or can’t do

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and you’re looking for answers,
apply a simple principle:

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Act like you have COVID-19.

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Every move you make could be
a risk to someone else."

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Ardern’s
plea came on the same day

00:11:41.770 --> 00:11:43.650
that the white
supremacist terrorist

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who massacred Muslim worshipers
in two New Zealand mosques last

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March pleaded guilty
to the murder of 51 people.

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His sentencing trial will be
delayed until New Zealand’s

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COVID-19 epidemic
is under control

00:11:55.640 --> 00:11:57.200
and family members
of the victims

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have a chance to attend.

00:11:59.350 --> 00:12:00.950
Senator Bernie Sanders
has challenged former

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Vice President Joe

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Biden to a 12th
and final debate next month,

00:12:04.610 --> 00:12:06.330
signaling he will continue
to compete

00:12:06.330 --> 00:12:09.090
for the Democratic
Party’s presidential nomination.

00:12:09.090 --> 00:12:10.570
The Democratic
National Committee

00:12:10.570 --> 00:12:12.240
has yet to schedule a date

00:12:12.240 --> 00:12:15.040
or a broadcast partner
for an April debate,

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and on Wednesday Biden
dismissed the idea.

00:12:17.480 --> 00:12:18.740
Joe Biden:

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"My focus is just dealing
with this crisis right now.

00:12:21.540 --> 00:12:23.170
I haven’t thought about
any more debates.

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I think we’ve had
enough debates.

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I think we should
get on with this."

00:12:27.730 --> 00:12:29.300
The Intercept is reporting

00:12:29.300 --> 00:12:31.420
that the Time’s Up
Legal Defense Fund,

00:12:31.420 --> 00:12:34.480
set up to help survivors
of rape and sexual assault,

00:12:34.480 --> 00:12:35.740
refused to fund

00:12:35.740 --> 00:12:40.470
a #MeToo investigation into
allegations against Joe Biden.

00:12:40.470 --> 00:12:42.970
The charges were
brought by Tara Reade,

00:12:42.970 --> 00:12:45.440
who worked as a staff
assistant for then-Senator

00:12:45.440 --> 00:12:49.050
Biden in 1993, when she
was in her mid-twenties.

00:12:49.050 --> 00:12:50.380
Reade told journalist

00:12:50.380 --> 00:12:52.390
Katie Halper
in an interview published

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Tuesday that Biden
repeatedly touched her

00:12:54.800 --> 00:12:57.460
without her consent
and sexually assaulted her.

00:12:57.460 --> 00:12:59.210
A warning to listeners
and viewers:

00:12:59.210 --> 00:13:00.590
Her account is graphic.

00:13:00.590 --> 00:13:01.870
Tara Reade:

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"And then his hands were on me
and underneath my clothes.

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And yeah, and then he went —
he went down my skirt

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but then up inside it,

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and he penetrated me
with his fingers."

00:13:19.030 --> 00:13:21.250
Reade approached the Time’s Up
Legal Defense

00:13:21.250 --> 00:13:23.140
Fund in January
looking for assistance,

00:13:23.140 --> 00:13:25.430
but was reportedly told
the fund could not help her

00:13:25.430 --> 00:13:28.040
because Biden is a candidate
for federal office,

00:13:28.040 --> 00:13:29.820
and pursuing a case
could jeopardize

00:13:29.820 --> 00:13:31.790
the fund’s nonprofit status.

00:13:31.790 --> 00:13:34.380
The Intercept reports
the public relations firm

00:13:34.380 --> 00:13:36.290
representing
Time’s Up Legal Defense

00:13:36.290 --> 00:13:39.510
Fund is SKDKnickerbocker,
whose managing director,

00:13:39.510 --> 00:13:43.190
Anita Dunn, is top adviser to
Biden’s presidential campaign.

00:13:43.890 --> 00:13:46.090
At the White House,
President Donald Trump Wednesday

00:13:46.090 --> 00:13:48.230
repeated his call
for the United States

00:13:48.230 --> 00:13:51.610
to reopen for business
on April 12, Easter Sunday

00:13:51.610 --> 00:13:53.750
— around the time
the coronavirus crisis

00:13:53.750 --> 00:13:56.110
is expected to peak
in New York City.

00:13:56.110 --> 00:13:58.040
Trump’s call for
"packed churches"

00:13:58.040 --> 00:14:01.520
across the U.S. in mid-April
came as Pope Francis

00:14:01.520 --> 00:14:04.970
ordered bishops around the world
to instruct Catholics

00:14:04.970 --> 00:14:08.090
to celebrate
Easter in their homes.

00:14:08.090 --> 00:14:12.020
Trump’s plan also defies the
entire medical establishment,

00:14:12.020 --> 00:14:15.160
which is pleading with Americans
to remain at home to prevent new

00:14:15.160 --> 00:14:16.570
COVID-19 patients

00:14:16.570 --> 00:14:18.920
from overwhelming
the healthcare system.

00:14:18.920 --> 00:14:21.740
Researchers at the Imperial
College of London estimate

00:14:21.740 --> 00:14:23.850
that without measures
like lockdowns

00:14:23.850 --> 00:14:27.030
and social distancing,
2.2 million people

00:14:27.030 --> 00:14:30.100
in the United States
will die of COVID-19.

00:14:31.370 --> 00:14:33.340
In a major victory
for environmentalists

00:14:33.340 --> 00:14:36.570
and indigenous water protectors,
a federal judge ruled Wednesday

00:14:36.570 --> 00:14:38.270
that the U.S. Army
Corps of Engineers

00:14:38.270 --> 00:14:40.960
violated the National
Environmental Policy Act

00:14:40.960 --> 00:14:44.480
when it permitted construction
of the Dakota Access pipeline.

00:14:44.480 --> 00:14:47.930
The court ruled the corps
failed to resolve concerns

00:14:47.930 --> 00:14:49.410
by the Standing Rock Sioux

00:14:49.410 --> 00:14:52.080
about the potential impacts
of oil spills,

00:14:52.080 --> 00:14:53.630
and ordered
the Trump administration

00:14:53.630 --> 00:14:55.800
to prepare a full
environmental impact statement

00:14:55.800 --> 00:14:57.030
on the pipeline.

00:14:57.030 --> 00:14:59.300
Standing Rock Sioux Tribal
Chair Mike Faith

00:14:59.300 --> 00:15:01.070
celebrated the ruling, writing,

00:15:01.070 --> 00:15:04.180
"It’s humbling to see how
actions we took four years ago

00:15:04.180 --> 00:15:06.340
to defend
our ancestral homeland

00:15:06.340 --> 00:15:08.830
continue to inspire
national conversations

00:15:08.830 --> 00:15:11.970
about how our choices
ultimately affect this planet.

00:15:11.970 --> 00:15:13.440
Perhaps in the wake
of this court

00:15:13.440 --> 00:15:16.950
ruling the federal government
will begin to catch on, too."

00:15:17.990 --> 00:15:20.250
And those are some of
the headlines this is Democracy

00:15:20.250 --> 00:15:23.820
Now, Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

00:15:23.820 --> 00:15:25.520
I’m Amy Goodman.

00:15:40.980 --> 00:15:42.680
AMY GOODMAN: We’re

00:16:47.280 --> 00:17:03.590
going to begin
right here in New York City,

00:17:03.590 --> 00:17:07.380
the epicenter of the coronavirus
outbreak in the United States,

00:17:07.380 --> 00:17:10.480
hospitals seeing the same surge
in coronavirus cases

00:17:10.480 --> 00:17:12.830
that overwhelmed
healthcare systems in China,

00:17:12.830 --> 00:17:14.260
Italy and Spain.

00:17:14.260 --> 00:17:16.750
Refrigerated trucks and tents
have been stationed

00:17:16.750 --> 00:17:18.620
outside of some hospitals

00:17:18.620 --> 00:17:21.140
to hold the bodies of the dead
as morgues fill up.

00:17:21.140 --> 00:17:23.360
In 24 hours on Tuesday,

00:17:23.360 --> 00:17:28.320
13 people reportedly died
at Elmhurst Hospital Center,

00:17:28.320 --> 00:17:32.900
a 545-bed public hospital
in the borough of Queens.

00:17:32.900 --> 00:17:34.600
The New York Times reports,
quote,

00:17:35.380 --> 00:17:38.940
"In several hours on Tuesday,
Dr. Ashley Bray

00:17:38.940 --> 00:17:41.760
performed chest compressions
at Elmhurst Hospital Center

00:17:41.760 --> 00:17:44.040
on a woman in her 80s,
a man in his 60s

00:17:44.040 --> 00:17:47.540
and a 38-year-old who reminded
the doctor of her fiancé.

00:17:48.100 --> 00:17:50.580
All had tested positive
for the coronavirus

00:17:50.580 --> 00:17:52.340
and had gone
into cardiac arrest.

00:17:52.340 --> 00:17:54.350
All eventually died."

00:17:54.350 --> 00:17:57.220
Dr. Bray called the situation
"apocalyptic."

00:17:57.730 --> 00:18:01.230
New York City is reporting
366 deaths

00:18:01.230 --> 00:18:04.010
and more than 33,000
confirmed cases —

00:18:04.010 --> 00:18:06.980
almost half of all the cases
in the United States,

00:18:06.980 --> 00:18:10.810
though the number is expected
to be so much higher

00:18:10.810 --> 00:18:12.470
due to the lack of tests.

00:18:12.470 --> 00:18:15.040
More than
4,000 coronavirus patients

00:18:15.040 --> 00:18:17.390
have been hospitalized
in New York City.

00:18:17.390 --> 00:18:19.140
A leaked FEMA briefing shows

00:18:19.140 --> 00:18:21.870
all the more than 1,800
intensive care beds

00:18:21.870 --> 00:18:24.890
in the city are expected
to be full by Friday,

00:18:24.890 --> 00:18:27.300
and the state has called
for tens of thousands

00:18:27.300 --> 00:18:30.850
more ventilators, hospital beds
and intensive care beds.

00:18:31.700 --> 00:18:34.160
This comes as workers
at New York City hospitals

00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.100
report shortages of
personal protective equipment

00:18:37.100 --> 00:18:38.700
as they work amidst patients

00:18:38.700 --> 00:18:40.550
with the highly
contagious disease.

00:18:40.550 --> 00:18:43.410
Workers for the massive
Mount Sinai Health System

00:18:43.410 --> 00:18:45.250
shared photos online
of themselves

00:18:45.250 --> 00:18:47.390
wearing trash bags
for protection.

00:18:48.000 --> 00:18:50.800
A New York City nurse who was
treating coronavirus patients

00:18:50.800 --> 00:18:53.810
has died after testing positive
about two weeks ago.

00:18:53.810 --> 00:18:57.220
Mount Sinai West nursing manager
Kious Jordan Kelly

00:18:57.220 --> 00:18:58.440
was in his forties,

00:18:58.440 --> 00:19:01.680
and his co-workers
described him as compassionate,

00:19:01.680 --> 00:19:03.420
devoted to his patients.

00:19:03.990 --> 00:19:06.420
For more, we’re joined
by Dr. Craig Spencer.

00:19:06.420 --> 00:19:09.210
He is director of global health
in emergency medicine

00:19:09.210 --> 00:19:11.550
at Columbia University
Medical Center.

00:19:11.550 --> 00:19:13.810
Dr. Spencer contracted Ebola

00:19:13.810 --> 00:19:15.810
while fighting its outbreak
in Africa

00:19:15.810 --> 00:19:17.610
and survived the disease.

00:19:17.610 --> 00:19:20.160
He’s now an emergency room
doctor in New York City,

00:19:20.890 --> 00:19:23.090
where he’s treating
coronavirus patients.

00:19:23.090 --> 00:19:26.060
He’s also on the board
of Doctors Without Borders.

00:19:26.060 --> 00:19:28.400
And again, with us,
our co-host Nermeen Shaikh.

00:19:28.400 --> 00:19:30.740
We welcome you both
to Democracy Now!

00:19:30.740 --> 00:19:32.440
Dr. Craig Spencer,

00:19:32.440 --> 00:19:35.620
describe a day
in the New York City hospitals.

00:19:35.620 --> 00:19:40.390
We just laid out this graphic
picture of shortage.

00:19:40.390 --> 00:19:43.900
And the question is:
How unnecessary was this,

00:19:43.900 --> 00:19:45.880
the idea that in this country,

00:19:45.880 --> 00:19:49.940
the richest in the world,
doctors, people like you,

00:19:49.940 --> 00:19:52.580
and nurses and the staff
of the hospitals,

00:19:52.580 --> 00:19:55.480
going to those who even
clean the hospitals,

00:19:55.480 --> 00:19:58.810
do not have access
to the necessary protection

00:19:58.810 --> 00:20:02.480
to treat the patients that are
surging into these hospitals?

00:20:03.780 --> 00:20:05.140
DR. CRAIG SPENCER: Thanks
for having me on,

00:20:05.140 --> 00:20:09.230
and let me share the story.
Look, it’s pretty dire inside

00:20:09.230 --> 00:20:10.700
New York City hospitals
right now,

00:20:10.700 --> 00:20:12.580
and we’re all concerned about
how that’s going to spread

00:20:12.580 --> 00:20:14.050
throughout the rest
of the country,

00:20:14.050 --> 00:20:16.050
or, more frankly,
the rest of the world.

00:20:16.930 --> 00:20:19.290
It’s no surprise that
the greatest number of cases

00:20:19.290 --> 00:20:22.520
are being reported in the places
with the strongest

00:20:22.520 --> 00:20:26.090
or the best healthcare systems.

00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.410
We know that cases are spreading
all over the world.

00:20:29.410 --> 00:20:30.910
We’re just picking them up
more here,

00:20:30.910 --> 00:20:33.610
and we’re seeing a lot more
of the complications

00:20:33.610 --> 00:20:36.630
inside of our
emergency departments.

00:20:36.630 --> 00:20:37.980
As has already been reported,

00:20:37.980 --> 00:20:39.710
we have a growing number
of patients

00:20:39.710 --> 00:20:41.930
coming in every day
with coronavirus.

00:20:41.930 --> 00:20:44.440
We have people young and old,

00:20:44.440 --> 00:20:47.100
with complications,
without complications,

00:20:47.100 --> 00:20:49.710
who get put on
mechanical ventilators,

00:20:49.710 --> 00:20:52.309
who get put on life support
to help their breathing,

00:20:53.070 --> 00:20:55.980
who have cardiac arrest.
It’s a daily reality

00:20:55.980 --> 00:20:57.520
for many of my colleagues
on the frontline,

00:20:57.520 --> 00:20:59.220
especially here
in New York City.

00:21:01.670 --> 00:21:02.960
AMY GOODMAN: Nermeen?

00:21:02.960 --> 00:21:04.770
NERMEEN SHAIKH: I’d like to
ask you, Dr. Spencer —

00:21:04.770 --> 00:21:07.290
I mean, one of the things,
as Amy mentioned,

00:21:07.290 --> 00:21:10.490
that’s very striking
is that the U.S. is,

00:21:10.490 --> 00:21:12.620
of course,
extremely wealthy,

00:21:12.620 --> 00:21:14.419
the wealthiest country
in the world,

00:21:15.100 --> 00:21:19.270
but it also has — according to
the Global Health Security

00:21:19.270 --> 00:21:25.040
Index, in 2019, the U.S.
was the highest-ranked country

00:21:25.040 --> 00:21:28.450
in terms of
pandemic preparedness.

00:21:29.270 --> 00:21:31.090
The U.S. was
the best prepared.

00:21:31.090 --> 00:21:36.460
So, if American hospitals are
being overwhelmed in this way,

00:21:36.460 --> 00:21:38.530
what about all of
the other countries

00:21:39.730 --> 00:21:42.570
that don’t have the resources
that the U.S. does?

00:21:43.770 --> 00:21:45.680
DR. CRAIG SPENCER: Yeah.

00:21:45.680 --> 00:21:47.960
I think if you asked anyone
over the past couple years

00:21:47.960 --> 00:21:50.190
whether — anyone
that does this for a living,

00:21:50.190 --> 00:21:52.720
whether or not the U.S.
was prepared for a pandemic,

00:21:52.720 --> 00:21:53.970
we all would have said no.

00:21:53.970 --> 00:21:55.360
I think all of us
have written articles

00:21:55.360 --> 00:21:58.040
in the past couple years
lamenting the fact that the U.S.

00:21:58.040 --> 00:22:03.270
has torn apart the preparedness
architecture here in the U.S.

00:22:03.270 --> 00:22:04.760
by underfunding the CDC,

00:22:04.760 --> 00:22:07.860
by underfunding state
and local departments of health.

00:22:08.510 --> 00:22:11.930
It’s not surprising to anyone
that’s been looking at this

00:22:11.930 --> 00:22:14.340
or been worrying about this
over the past couple years

00:22:14.340 --> 00:22:17.270
that this pandemic is wreaking
such havoc here in the U.S.

00:22:18.540 --> 00:22:20.590
We’ve also
drastically underfunded

00:22:20.590 --> 00:22:21.790
the World Health Organization,

00:22:21.790 --> 00:22:24.090
despite the lessons
we learned in West Africa

00:22:24.090 --> 00:22:28.170
in 2014 to 2016
with the Ebola crisis there.

00:22:28.170 --> 00:22:30.420
We learned
that having preparedness

00:22:30.420 --> 00:22:33.100
was much more important
than a reactive response.

00:22:33.100 --> 00:22:34.970
We learned that putting
the right amount of funding

00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:36.490
into the organizations

00:22:36.490 --> 00:22:40.360
who are capable of picking up
these disease threats

00:22:40.360 --> 00:22:42.310
and responding to them
all over the world

00:22:42.310 --> 00:22:45.110
is the only way
to protect people everywhere.

00:22:45.110 --> 00:22:46.780
It is so much cheaper.

00:22:46.780 --> 00:22:49.890
It is so much cheaper
to invest in preparedness

00:22:49.890 --> 00:22:52.200
than it is to scramble
for response.

00:22:52.920 --> 00:22:55.310
We’re putting together
trillions of dollars

00:22:55.310 --> 00:22:58.550
to try and respond to this
just here in the United States.

00:22:58.550 --> 00:23:00.470
And that amount of money
would have provided

00:23:00.470 --> 00:23:04.250
for global preparedness
for over a decade.

00:23:04.250 --> 00:23:06.110
And so, we need to really think
about our priorities.

00:23:06.110 --> 00:23:09.160
And I hope when we come out
on the other side of this,

00:23:09.160 --> 00:23:12.000
we think about where
the smart investment is.

00:23:12.000 --> 00:23:14.790
The smart investment is not
just trying to build a wall

00:23:14.790 --> 00:23:17.450
around this country
with the hope that we’re going

00:23:17.450 --> 00:23:20.180
to keep microbes
and bacteria out.

00:23:20.180 --> 00:23:21.900
The reality of our world
right now

00:23:21.900 --> 00:23:24.490
is that wherever
a disease starts —

00:23:24.490 --> 00:23:26.940
and it’s more likely
to be in China

00:23:26.940 --> 00:23:28.940
than it is to be in Columbia,
Missouri —

00:23:29.560 --> 00:23:33.330
it can be anywhere in the world
within 24 to 48 hours.

00:23:33.330 --> 00:23:36.680
And we are all at risk, unless
we have strong health systems

00:23:36.680 --> 00:23:39.330
in the places where the most
vulnerable patients are.

00:23:42.060 --> 00:23:43.300
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Dr.
Spencer,

00:23:43.300 --> 00:23:46.720
can you explain,
for people who don’t know,

00:23:46.720 --> 00:23:49.010
the people — I mean,
in the U.S.,

00:23:49.010 --> 00:23:52.770
most healthcare is privatized.

00:23:52.770 --> 00:23:56.080
So, why is it that
in private hospitals

00:23:56.820 --> 00:23:58.400
there is not sufficient —

00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:01.660
there isn’t sufficient personal
protective equipment?

00:24:01.660 --> 00:24:03.970
Because not funding the CDC

00:24:03.970 --> 00:24:06.590
or cutting funding
to the CDC, etc.,

00:24:06.590 --> 00:24:09.150
shouldn’t impact the decisions
that private hospitals

00:24:09.150 --> 00:24:12.520
make about the equipment,
the beds, etc.,

00:24:12.520 --> 00:24:14.220
that they acquire.

00:24:14.850 --> 00:24:16.260
DR. CRAIG SPENCER: Yeah.
You know, it’s funny,

00:24:16.260 --> 00:24:18.500
because we talk
about these N95 masks.

00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:21.000
Those are those thicker variants

00:24:21.000 --> 00:24:23.920
that filter particles
like the coronavirus.

00:24:24.870 --> 00:24:29.290
And generally, we’re fit-tested
in the hospital every year —

00:24:29.290 --> 00:24:30.950
it’s a requirement —
to make sure

00:24:30.950 --> 00:24:33.740
that they fit right,
that nothing can get through.

00:24:33.740 --> 00:24:36.470
We almost never use them,
because in the U.S.

00:24:36.470 --> 00:24:39.710
we don’t have relatively
many tuberculosis patients.

00:24:39.710 --> 00:24:41.340
We don’t have a lot of people

00:24:41.340 --> 00:24:43.630
where we have to use
this type of protection.

00:24:44.730 --> 00:24:47.560
That’s not the reality in many
of the places that I work —

00:24:47.560 --> 00:24:50.560
West Africa, East Africa,
Southeast Asia, etc.

00:24:52.060 --> 00:24:54.220
There, they are just more used

00:24:54.220 --> 00:24:55.540
for a lot of
the communicable diseases

00:24:55.540 --> 00:24:58.640
that we have stopped seeing as
much here in the United States.

00:24:58.640 --> 00:25:00.689
The result is that a lot
of my colleagues

00:25:02.250 --> 00:25:04.000
don’t have the same amount
of experience

00:25:04.000 --> 00:25:06.520
of working with the personal
protective equipment

00:25:06.520 --> 00:25:08.000
that we need right now.

00:25:08.000 --> 00:25:11.410
I see a lot of people who are,
you know, touching the mask

00:25:11.410 --> 00:25:14.030
or putting it on
or taking it off incorrectly.

00:25:14.030 --> 00:25:15.940
Personal protective equipment
like gloves

00:25:15.940 --> 00:25:18.820
and masks do not protect you
if they’re used incorrectly.

00:25:19.370 --> 00:25:21.250
One of the greatest risks
when you’re using them

00:25:21.250 --> 00:25:22.580
is taking them off wrong,

00:25:22.580 --> 00:25:25.330
touching your face, touching
the mask and infecting yourself.

00:25:25.330 --> 00:25:29.860
So, it’s not surprising that
we don’t have a huge supply

00:25:29.860 --> 00:25:31.120
of these things.

00:25:31.120 --> 00:25:33.420
We didn’t prepare
for this scenario.

00:25:33.420 --> 00:25:35.769
And I think this is
the most important message.

00:25:36.330 --> 00:25:38.330
So many people knew
that this was coming.

00:25:38.330 --> 00:25:40.610
So many people knew
that this was coming.

00:25:40.610 --> 00:25:42.360
You can look back,
and you can see headlines

00:25:42.360 --> 00:25:44.950
from three month ago,
three years ago.

00:25:45.550 --> 00:25:47.660
Everything that we learned
in West Africa

00:25:47.660 --> 00:25:51.050
seemed to have been torn apart
in decisions that, you know,

00:25:51.050 --> 00:25:53.150
seemingly undermine
our willingness

00:25:53.150 --> 00:25:55.880
and our ability
to respond to pandemics,

00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:57.700
not only here
in the United States,

00:25:57.700 --> 00:25:58.990
but throughout the world.

00:25:58.990 --> 00:26:01.070
AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Spencer,
if you would take us

00:26:01.070 --> 00:26:03.820
on your personal journey,
what happened to you

00:26:03.820 --> 00:26:06.590
when you were dealing
with Ebola in Africa,

00:26:07.860 --> 00:26:11.320
about contracting it, and then
the lessons we can learn?

00:26:11.320 --> 00:26:13.480
And I want to particularly
go to the issue

00:26:13.480 --> 00:26:17.020
of the egregious lack of tests

00:26:17.020 --> 00:26:20.630
and how that is a major public
healthcare measure,

00:26:20.630 --> 00:26:22.630
just for people to understand,

00:26:22.630 --> 00:26:26.100
the lack of tests,
the lag in getting them,

00:26:26.100 --> 00:26:29.720
and then even now the amount
of time it takes for people —

00:26:29.720 --> 00:26:32.840
it can be four, five,
10 days to find out, in fact,

00:26:32.840 --> 00:26:36.190
even if they get the test —
in New York, very difficult —

00:26:36.190 --> 00:26:38.690
and what that means
in terms of contagion.

00:26:38.690 --> 00:26:41.410
But start with yourself
contracting Ebola.

00:26:42.430 --> 00:26:43.640
DR. CRAIG SPENCER: Yeah.

00:26:43.640 --> 00:26:47.300
So, I worked in West Africa,
in Guinea, in 2014.

00:26:47.300 --> 00:26:48.900
I was in Guéckédou,

00:26:48.900 --> 00:26:50.830
another epicenter
of an outbreak,

00:26:51.510 --> 00:26:54.410
providing direct clinical care
on a daily basis,

00:26:54.410 --> 00:26:56.060
in full protective
personal equipment,

00:26:56.060 --> 00:26:57.890
with Doctors Without Borders.

00:26:57.890 --> 00:27:00.830
And I followed rigorous
protocols every single day.

00:27:01.410 --> 00:27:05.120
My organization had been
doing this for decades

00:27:05.120 --> 00:27:07.050
and had really done a great job

00:27:07.050 --> 00:27:09.270
in minimizing the risk
to the providers

00:27:09.270 --> 00:27:10.770
and increasing
the quality of care

00:27:10.770 --> 00:27:12.720
we could provide
to our patients.

00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:14.860
That being said, personal
protective equipment

00:27:14.860 --> 00:27:16.910
is not flawless,
it’s not perfect,

00:27:16.910 --> 00:27:20.660
even if used perfectly.
At one point I was infected.

00:27:20.660 --> 00:27:24.210
When I came back to the U.S.,
I was, thankfully, treated here

00:27:24.210 --> 00:27:26.110
and received
incredible quality care

00:27:26.110 --> 00:27:27.810
and was lucky enough to survive,

00:27:28.330 --> 00:27:31.960
largely because I was treated
in a really great health system.

00:27:31.960 --> 00:27:33.480
I was also really young

00:27:33.480 --> 00:27:35.150
and didn’t have
any other medical issues.

00:27:35.150 --> 00:27:36.480
But the whole time,
the only thing

00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:37.880
I could think about
were my colleagues

00:27:37.880 --> 00:27:39.260
and my friends back
in West Africa

00:27:39.260 --> 00:27:41.859
that didn’t have access
to the same quality of care.

00:27:42.460 --> 00:27:45.070
One thing I say
is that in West Africa

00:27:45.070 --> 00:27:48.580
I took care of about
30 patients myself at any time,

00:27:48.580 --> 00:27:51.090
and here in the U.S. I probably
had 30 providers on call

00:27:51.090 --> 00:27:52.790
to take care of me
at any time.

00:27:54.010 --> 00:27:56.250
Some of the stunning
similarities and differences

00:27:56.250 --> 00:27:58.940
between West Africa
and coronavirus

00:27:58.940 --> 00:28:01.050
is that, yeah,
they’re both viruses.

00:28:01.050 --> 00:28:03.330
The coronavirus seems
to infect more people

00:28:03.330 --> 00:28:06.550
and kill a relatively
smaller percent versus Ebola.

00:28:07.590 --> 00:28:09.330
But the difference
in terms of the fight

00:28:09.330 --> 00:28:10.780
was that in West Africa,

00:28:10.780 --> 00:28:12.320
I at least never
really had to worry

00:28:12.320 --> 00:28:14.560
about my personal
protective equipment.

00:28:14.560 --> 00:28:16.680
A lot of my colleagues
here in New York City

00:28:16.680 --> 00:28:19.790
are worried about the number
of N95 respirators we have,

00:28:19.790 --> 00:28:23.250
how limited our supply chain is.
And if it’s bad here,

00:28:23.250 --> 00:28:25.950
what is it going to look like
in the rest of the country?

00:28:25.950 --> 00:28:27.870
And you bring up another
really important point

00:28:27.870 --> 00:28:29.840
that we haven’t talked about,
I think, enough,

00:28:29.840 --> 00:28:31.920
and that is
this issue of testing.

00:28:31.920 --> 00:28:35.820
Right now we’re talking about
only testing certain people,

00:28:35.820 --> 00:28:37.540
so only testing
some healthcare workers,

00:28:37.540 --> 00:28:39.710
only testing people
that are hospitalized.

00:28:39.710 --> 00:28:42.050
It’s not because
that’s the best thing to do.

00:28:42.690 --> 00:28:45.970
It’s because that’s really the
only thing we can do right now.

00:28:45.970 --> 00:28:48.520
Testing capacity
has increased dramatically

00:28:48.520 --> 00:28:51.630
in the past couple weeks,
but we are months delayed.

00:28:52.530 --> 00:28:56.980
We should have had a testing
strategy like South Korea.

00:28:56.980 --> 00:28:59.480
We need to understand
where this disease is,

00:28:59.480 --> 00:29:01.140
is passing,
where it’s transmitting.

00:29:01.140 --> 00:29:04.410
And the only way to do that
is to test, test, test and test.

00:29:04.410 --> 00:29:05.850
We haven’t been doing that.

00:29:05.850 --> 00:29:07.650
We’ve all been limited
in our hospitals

00:29:07.650 --> 00:29:10.690
and in our communities.
People are walking around now

00:29:10.690 --> 00:29:12.800
not knowing whether or not
they’ve had coronavirus,

00:29:12.800 --> 00:29:14.740
whether they may have
some type of immunity,

00:29:14.740 --> 00:29:16.430
whether they could be out
in our communities

00:29:16.430 --> 00:29:19.000
helping other people,
if they have antibodies,

00:29:19.000 --> 00:29:21.480
by delivering groceries
to the elderly or helping

00:29:21.480 --> 00:29:22.980
in other institutions.

00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:26.270
So, our testing strategy
right now is such

00:29:26.270 --> 00:29:29.380
because we failed
to be prepared.

00:29:29.380 --> 00:29:33.270
There were critical missteps
in the testing capacity,

00:29:33.270 --> 00:29:35.190
in the testing kits
that were sent out.

00:29:35.190 --> 00:29:37.680
There were a lot of promises
about our ability

00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:40.610
to do billions of —

00:29:40.610 --> 00:29:43.250
millions of beautiful tests
for anyone that wanted one.

00:29:43.250 --> 00:29:45.200
That was never the reality
on the frontline,

00:29:45.200 --> 00:29:48.050
and that’s completely changed
in the past couple weeks.

00:29:50.300 --> 00:29:52.130
AMY GOODMAN: So,
Dr. Craig Spencer,

00:29:52.980 --> 00:29:57.860
if you could talk about
the use of it

00:29:57.860 --> 00:30:00.750
as a public health measure,
that you understand,

00:30:00.750 --> 00:30:04.550
and now, as a result,
everyone must treat themselves

00:30:04.550 --> 00:30:07.380
as if they are contagious,
as if they’re infected,

00:30:07.380 --> 00:30:09.490
to protect others
in the community,

00:30:09.490 --> 00:30:11.670
and yet you have
President Trump —

00:30:11.670 --> 00:30:14.210
if you can respond
to what he is saying,

00:30:14.740 --> 00:30:16.520
that by Easter — right?

00:30:16.520 --> 00:30:20.710
— in just a few weeks,
he wants to see packed churches,

00:30:20.710 --> 00:30:22.890
while the pope at the Vatican

00:30:22.890 --> 00:30:24.960
is telling people
to wash their hands

00:30:24.960 --> 00:30:29.560
but not wash the feet
of the worshipers,

00:30:29.560 --> 00:30:32.470
while he is saying
pray at home?

00:30:32.470 --> 00:30:35.170
Of course, he’s in Italy,
which is so hard hit.

00:30:35.170 --> 00:30:36.780
And many are deeply concerned

00:30:36.780 --> 00:30:39.140
that the U.S.
could go that route.

00:30:40.090 --> 00:30:42.740
What would stop us
from going that route?

00:30:42.740 --> 00:30:46.950
And talk about the danger
of President Trump’s message.

00:30:48.990 --> 00:30:50.500
DR. CRAIG SPENCER: Yeah.

00:30:50.500 --> 00:30:52.460
I think, in a week,
we will be Italy.

00:30:52.460 --> 00:30:55.180
At least here in New York City,
we’re already seeing that.

00:30:55.180 --> 00:30:57.340
This is something I’ve been
warning about for weeks.

00:30:57.340 --> 00:31:00.300
This is something Italy has been
warning us about for weeks.

00:31:00.300 --> 00:31:02.000
In terms of what can stop this,

00:31:03.300 --> 00:31:04.790
I don’t want to incite
any panic;

00:31:04.790 --> 00:31:06.140
I want to incite
some kind of preparation,

00:31:06.140 --> 00:31:09.910
because we still have a huge
country outside of New York City

00:31:09.910 --> 00:31:13.540
and the other epicenters
right now, that will be impacted

00:31:13.540 --> 00:31:14.900
by this virus
in the coming weeks

00:31:14.900 --> 00:31:16.260
and the coming months.

00:31:16.260 --> 00:31:17.850
Look, to respond to that,
let me just say

00:31:17.850 --> 00:31:21.810
that the first case of
coronavirus was diagnosed here

00:31:21.810 --> 00:31:25.200
in New York City in early March,
so just over three weeks ago.

00:31:26.170 --> 00:31:28.490
Easter is, you know,
just a couple weeks away,

00:31:28.490 --> 00:31:30.660
two to three weeks away.

00:31:30.660 --> 00:31:35.020
The idea that we can have
this dramatic spike in cases —

00:31:35.020 --> 00:31:36.870
which is still going up,
by the way —

00:31:37.540 --> 00:31:39.080
and that we’re somehow
going to level off

00:31:39.080 --> 00:31:41.480
and be at a place where,

00:31:41.480 --> 00:31:44.329
by Easter, we’re going to have
people back together again

00:31:45.440 --> 00:31:47.230
is dangerous
and magical thinking.

00:31:47.760 --> 00:31:50.400
It defies all of the modeling
that we’ve seen.

00:31:50.400 --> 00:31:53.530
It defies any of the reality
any of my colleagues

00:31:53.530 --> 00:31:55.400
are seeing
in the emergency department.

00:31:55.400 --> 00:31:59.370
And quite frankly,
going into work

00:31:59.370 --> 00:32:00.680
and seeing coronavirus patients

00:32:00.680 --> 00:32:02.450
and seeing them crash
and decompensating,

00:32:02.450 --> 00:32:04.460
get really sick
really quickly, is scary.

00:32:04.460 --> 00:32:09.310
But this idea of millions and
millions of my fellow Americans

00:32:09.310 --> 00:32:11.880
all being in church
or being in concert halls

00:32:11.880 --> 00:32:14.720
or being together
in just a couple weeks

00:32:14.720 --> 00:32:16.540
gives me such pause,

00:32:16.540 --> 00:32:20.670
knowing that this is the only
way the virus can infect you.

00:32:20.670 --> 00:32:22.850
It cannot infect you
if it cannot meet you.

00:32:23.420 --> 00:32:25.730
And by bringing people
back together,

00:32:25.730 --> 00:32:28.090
this is the greatest possible
risk

00:32:28.090 --> 00:32:31.160
we have to continuing
and worsening this pandemic,

00:32:31.160 --> 00:32:33.530
fueling the flame
across the United States.

00:32:33.530 --> 00:32:36.610
The most important message
everyone needs to know right now

00:32:36.610 --> 00:32:39.570
is the only way that you can
be safe is by staying home.

00:32:39.570 --> 00:32:42.400
The virus cannot infect you
if it does not meet you.

00:32:42.400 --> 00:32:44.550
The streets may look empty,
I know,

00:32:44.550 --> 00:32:47.040
but I assure you what’s
happening within the walls

00:32:47.040 --> 00:32:49.220
of the emergency departments
here in New York City,

00:32:49.220 --> 00:32:50.990
and maybe next week in Newark

00:32:50.990 --> 00:32:53.040
and a week after that
in New Mexico,

00:32:53.610 --> 00:32:57.760
it is anything
but the quietness

00:32:57.760 --> 00:33:00.730
and the calm you see
on those empty city streets.

00:33:00.730 --> 00:33:02.110
AMY GOODMAN: Finally, Dr.
Craig Spencer,

00:33:02.110 --> 00:33:04.200
what keeps you going?

00:33:04.200 --> 00:33:08.260
I mean, you, your colleagues,
all of the health staff

00:33:08.260 --> 00:33:10.340
of all of the hospitals
in this country

00:33:10.340 --> 00:33:13.800
and around the world
are so incredibly brave.

00:33:13.800 --> 00:33:15.700
You are the hardest hit.

00:33:15.700 --> 00:33:18.630
What gets you
to that hospital every day?

00:33:20.570 --> 00:33:22.810
DR. CRAIG SPENCER: I just think
it’s what we do.

00:33:22.810 --> 00:33:24.070
It’s our moral obligation.

00:33:24.070 --> 00:33:25.710
Yeah, we want to do it
with the right equipment.

00:33:25.710 --> 00:33:27.230
Yeah, we want to do it
with the right tools.

00:33:27.230 --> 00:33:30.890
But I think all of us have
the sense of personal drive

00:33:30.890 --> 00:33:34.310
to be able to provide care.
This is what I feel.

00:33:34.310 --> 00:33:35.920
This is what all of
my colleagues have felt,

00:33:35.920 --> 00:33:40.900
all the national staff I worked
with in Guinea in 2014 and 2015.

00:33:40.900 --> 00:33:44.280
I remember just being so moved
by their willingness and ability

00:33:44.280 --> 00:33:46.460
to come to work
every single day

00:33:46.460 --> 00:33:49.750
despite their communities
being destroyed by a virus.

00:33:49.750 --> 00:33:51.810
And I’ve learned
so much from them,

00:33:51.810 --> 00:33:53.690
so much that’s prepared me
for this outbreak,

00:33:53.690 --> 00:33:56.190
so much that I’ve tried to share
with my colleagues now.

00:33:56.190 --> 00:33:59.330
And I think we really need to be
thinking about the fact that,

00:33:59.330 --> 00:34:01.060
yes,
the U.S. is really hard hit,

00:34:01.060 --> 00:34:03.430
and it’s going to get worse
in the next couple weeks.

00:34:03.430 --> 00:34:05.620
But let us not forget
that there is a world

00:34:05.620 --> 00:34:09.410
outside of these borders.
I have worked in a lot of places

00:34:09.410 --> 00:34:14.550
where not just the critical care
doctors are in short supply,

00:34:14.550 --> 00:34:16.890
but there may be
no critical care beds,

00:34:16.890 --> 00:34:20.520
there may be no ventilators,
there may be no ICUs or ability

00:34:20.520 --> 00:34:22.590
to provide
the higher-quality care

00:34:22.590 --> 00:34:24.890
that we’re talking about
right here in the United States.

00:34:24.890 --> 00:34:26.550
So, it’s just
a good reminder

00:34:26.550 --> 00:34:28.870
that the media
is focused so much

00:34:28.870 --> 00:34:30.400
on what’s happening
in New York City,

00:34:30.400 --> 00:34:31.860
but I assure you
that this is an issue

00:34:31.860 --> 00:34:34.960
and will be a greater issue
everywhere else in the world.

00:34:34.960 --> 00:34:40.980
And just make sure we all keep
everybody else in our thoughts.

00:34:40.980 --> 00:34:43.000
AMY GOODMAN: Dr. Craig Spencer,
I want to thank you so much

00:34:43.000 --> 00:34:44.730
for being with us,
director of global health —

00:34:44.730 --> 00:34:45.970
DR. CRAIG SPENCER: Thank you.

00:34:45.970 --> 00:34:47.210
AMY GOODMAN: —
in emergency medicine

00:34:47.210 --> 00:34:49.010
at Columbia University
Medical Center,

00:34:49.010 --> 00:34:53.300
speaking to us from his home,
where he also —

00:34:54.760 --> 00:35:02.460
remarkable in his work
with Doctors Without Borders

00:35:02.460 --> 00:35:04.100
and many other groups,

00:35:04.100 --> 00:35:06.950
as he spends his time
having been in Africa

00:35:06.950 --> 00:35:08.730
and now in New York City.

00:35:08.730 --> 00:35:11.050
When we come back,
we’ll hear the words of senator

00:35:11.050 --> 00:35:13.170
and presidential candidate
Bernie Sanders

00:35:13.170 --> 00:35:17.670
on the record-shattering $2.2
trillion emergency relief bill

00:35:17.670 --> 00:35:20.520
passed by the Senate last night.
Stay with us.

00:35:20.520 --> 00:36:22.700
[break]

00:36:22.700 --> 00:36:25.130
AMY GOODMAN: "Coronavirus Alert"
by Ugandan

00:36:25.130 --> 00:36:27.240
pop star Bobi Wine
and Nubian Li.

00:36:27.240 --> 00:36:28.560
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy
Now!,

00:36:28.560 --> 00:36:31.370
democracynow.org,
The War and Peace Report.

00:36:31.370 --> 00:36:34.120
In a historic vote
just before midnight,

00:36:34.120 --> 00:36:35.630
the Senate unanimously approved

00:36:35.630 --> 00:36:39.800
a record-shattering $2.2
trillion emergency relief bill

00:36:39.800 --> 00:36:42.810
to battle the unprecedented
economic shock

00:36:42.810 --> 00:36:44.570
of the coronavirus pandemic.

00:36:44.570 --> 00:36:47.910
The House is set to vote
on the bill on Friday.

00:36:47.910 --> 00:36:50.930
President Trump promises
to sign it immediately.

00:36:50.930 --> 00:36:53.750
In a live-streamed legislative
update Wednesday night,

00:36:53.750 --> 00:36:56.260
Vermont senator, presidential
candidate Bernie Sanders

00:36:56.260 --> 00:36:58.070
spoke about
who the bill will help.

00:36:59.410 --> 00:37:00.780
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: 
This package provides

00:37:00.780 --> 00:37:02.270
the largest expansion

00:37:02.270 --> 00:37:05.350
of unemployment benefits
in American history,

00:37:06.390 --> 00:37:09.530
an increase
of over $250 billion.

00:37:11.030 --> 00:37:13.190
Under this bill,

00:37:13.190 --> 00:37:16.160
average Americans
who have been furloughed

00:37:17.270 --> 00:37:23.050
will be able to receive up
to 100% of their salary

00:37:23.050 --> 00:37:27.250
and their health insurance
for four months,

00:37:28.480 --> 00:37:30.190
for four months.

00:37:30.190 --> 00:37:34.800
Weekly unemployment benefits
will increase by $600.

00:37:36.140 --> 00:37:37.840
So, if you were laid off,

00:37:38.560 --> 00:37:43.700
your unemployment benefit
will increase by $600 above

00:37:44.390 --> 00:37:46.580
what it otherwise
would have been.

00:37:46.580 --> 00:37:49.640
And right now
the average benefit

00:37:49.640 --> 00:37:54.450
is about $364 for workers.

00:37:54.450 --> 00:37:57.720
Now, also, very importantly,

00:37:58.780 --> 00:38:05.220
this expansion of unemployment
will include part-time workers.

00:38:05.740 --> 00:38:10.480
It will include gig workers,
like those who drive Uber cars.

00:38:11.060 --> 00:38:15.040
It will include tip workers
and the self-employed,

00:38:16.040 --> 00:38:19.480
who would otherwise
not be covered

00:38:20.020 --> 00:38:21.400
by unemployment insurance.

00:38:21.400 --> 00:38:23.860
So, in other words,
what we’re doing now is,

00:38:23.860 --> 00:38:27.570
at a time when fewer than
half of the American people

00:38:27.570 --> 00:38:29.830
would normally be covered
by unemployment,

00:38:30.550 --> 00:38:33.900
what this legislation
does is it expands it

00:38:33.900 --> 00:38:35.880
to the overall workforce

00:38:36.700 --> 00:38:39.730
and, on top of that,
for many workers,

00:38:39.730 --> 00:38:43.230
would provide $600 a week

00:38:43.230 --> 00:38:46.250
more than they otherwise
would have gotten.

00:38:46.250 --> 00:38:48.650
And that is one of the more
important provisions

00:38:49.280 --> 00:38:50.800
in the bill.

00:38:50.800 --> 00:38:57.550
In addition, this bill provides
$250 billion to go out

00:38:57.550 --> 00:39:03.690
in one-time checks of $1,200
for adults and $500 for kids.

00:39:03.690 --> 00:39:04.900
Now, let me be very honest.

00:39:04.900 --> 00:39:07.510
As some of you may know,
I wanted much more.

00:39:08.120 --> 00:39:13.140
I wanted every American family
to be able to receive $2,000

00:39:13.680 --> 00:39:15.350
every single month

00:39:15.350 --> 00:39:18.030
that we continue to exist
within the crisis.

00:39:18.030 --> 00:39:19.940
So this does not do that.

00:39:19.940 --> 00:39:22.160
And this is clearly
not enough to me,

00:39:22.160 --> 00:39:24.350
but that is what it is.

00:39:24.350 --> 00:39:26.820
AMY GOODMAN: That’s Vermont
Senator Bernie Sanders

00:39:26.820 --> 00:39:30.120
speaking Wednesday night
about the unprecedented $2.2

00:39:30.120 --> 00:39:32.490
trillion emergency relief bill.

00:39:32.490 --> 00:39:35.450
The legislation would also
provide $150 billion

00:39:35.450 --> 00:39:37.610
in direct aid
to states and municipalities,

00:39:37.610 --> 00:39:41.050
more than $220 billion
in tax benefits to companies,

00:39:41.050 --> 00:39:43.720
almost $120 billion
in aid to hospitals

00:39:43.720 --> 00:39:45.490
and for veterans’ healthcare,

00:39:45.490 --> 00:39:48.580
and a half-a-trillion-dollar
fund to provide loans

00:39:48.580 --> 00:39:50.780
and loan guarantees
for corporations.

00:39:50.780 --> 00:39:52.780
Senator Sanders
and other progressive critics

00:39:52.780 --> 00:39:55.580
are sounding the alarm over
the corporate bailout portion

00:39:55.580 --> 00:39:58.390
of the bill and its limited
oversight measures.

00:39:59.350 --> 00:40:01.860
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS: I am very,
very, very concerned

00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:04.520
about a $500 billion

00:40:05.500 --> 00:40:08.930
that will go out
to the corporate world without —

00:40:08.930 --> 00:40:10.670
let me underline, without —

00:40:10.670 --> 00:40:15.770
the accountability
and transparency that is needed.

00:40:17.150 --> 00:40:21.200
We do not need,
at this moment in history,

00:40:21.200 --> 00:40:24.530
to provide a massive amount
of corporate welfare

00:40:25.240 --> 00:40:27.080
to large profitable
corporations.

00:40:27.080 --> 00:40:29.930
I think as many of you
are aware,

00:40:31.190 --> 00:40:32.760
you have industry like the —

00:40:32.760 --> 00:40:35.150
industries like the airlines
industry,

00:40:35.150 --> 00:40:39.960
among others, that have provided
for stock buybacks,

00:40:39.960 --> 00:40:42.380
billions and billions of dollars
for stock buybacks.

00:40:42.380 --> 00:40:45.570
They spent all their cash
rewarding themselves

00:40:45.570 --> 00:40:46.860
and their stockholders.

00:40:46.860 --> 00:40:50.320
And lo and behold,
today they need a major bailout.

00:40:51.020 --> 00:40:53.150
So, the concern here is:

00:40:53.150 --> 00:40:55.820
A, do we trust
the Trump administration

00:40:56.650 --> 00:40:58.780
to effectively decide

00:40:58.780 --> 00:41:01.690
which company will get
the loans or the grants?

00:41:01.690 --> 00:41:03.390
The answer is, no, I do not.

00:41:03.930 --> 00:41:07.590
Do we think that these loans and
grants during a political season

00:41:08.200 --> 00:41:12.510
will be used to benefit the
president’s election prospects?

00:41:12.510 --> 00:41:14.180
Absolutely, I do.

00:41:14.180 --> 00:41:15.550
AMY GOODMAN: That’s presidential
candidate,

00:41:15.550 --> 00:41:16.950
Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders

00:41:16.950 --> 00:41:19.230
speaking Wednesday night
in Washington, D.C.

00:41:19.230 --> 00:41:20.600
And this breaking news:

00:41:20.600 --> 00:41:25.440
U.S. unemployment claims
have soared to 3.3 million

00:41:25.440 --> 00:41:29.480
claims last week, quadrupling
the record from 1982.

00:41:29.480 --> 00:41:30.870
When we come back,
we turn to India,

00:41:30.870 --> 00:41:34.600
which is now under the largest
lockdown in human history.

00:41:34.600 --> 00:41:35.900
Stay with us.

00:41:35.900 --> 00:42:48.200
[break]

00:42:48.200 --> 00:42:51.030
AMY GOODMAN: That was
Sophia Blum and Jess Regelson

00:42:51.030 --> 00:42:52.370
from Providence,
Rhode Island,

00:42:52.370 --> 00:42:53.840
singing their rendition
of "Tinny"

00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:55.700
by Rani Arbo
and Daisy Mayhem,

00:42:55.700 --> 00:42:59.140
which they dedicated to
their nephew and grandchildren,

00:42:59.140 --> 00:43:02.250
who they haven’t seen
because of self-isolation

00:43:02.250 --> 00:43:04.400
in the midst of
this pandemic.

00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:07.390
AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy
Now!, democracynow.org.

00:43:07.390 --> 00:43:09.260
I’m Amy Goodman
in the studio,

00:43:09.260 --> 00:43:12.650
with Nermeen Shaikh in
self-isolation in New York City.

00:43:12.650 --> 00:43:14.480
We’re turning to India now,

00:43:14.480 --> 00:43:16.170
where Prime Minister
Narendra Modi

00:43:16.170 --> 00:43:18.470
ordered the largest
lockdown in human history

00:43:18.470 --> 00:43:20.480
starting Wednesday,
telling the country’s

00:43:20.480 --> 00:43:23.830
1.3 billion people
to shelter in place.

00:43:23.830 --> 00:43:28.450
With 693 confirmed
coronavirus cases and 13 dead,

00:43:28.450 --> 00:43:30.030
India’s three-week lockdown

00:43:30.030 --> 00:43:33.090
is an attempt to stave off
the skyrocketing death tolls

00:43:33.090 --> 00:43:36.200
and overwhelmed health systems
already seen in China,

00:43:36.200 --> 00:43:38.390
Italy, Spain
and now the United States.

00:43:38.390 --> 00:43:40.460
But as the country’s economy
and daily life

00:43:40.460 --> 00:43:43.810
comes to an abrupt halt,
hundreds of millions of Indians

00:43:43.810 --> 00:43:45.410
who live hand to mouth
have been left

00:43:45.410 --> 00:43:47.540
without the means
to support their families.

00:43:47.540 --> 00:43:50.290
More than 80% of India’s
workforce is informal,

00:43:50.290 --> 00:43:54.470
with most living off daily wages
often less than $2 or $3 a day,

00:43:54.470 --> 00:43:57.530
wages they cannot earn
under the present curfew.

00:43:57.530 --> 00:44:00.560
Some states, including
Uttar Pradesh and Kerala,

00:44:00.560 --> 00:44:02.800
have announced economic relief
packages for workers

00:44:02.800 --> 00:44:04.030
and the poor,

00:44:04.030 --> 00:44:05.650
and Modi’s government
is expected

00:44:05.650 --> 00:44:07.600
to do the same
in the coming days.

00:44:07.600 --> 00:44:11.020
But critics say Modi’s response
to the coronavirus crisis

00:44:11.020 --> 00:44:13.180
has left India’s poor
to fend for themselves,

00:44:13.180 --> 00:44:16.610
with migrant workers left
stranded at now-closed train

00:44:16.610 --> 00:44:18.990
and bus stations
with no way to get home,

00:44:18.990 --> 00:44:21.240
and millions wondering
how they’ll survive weeks

00:44:21.240 --> 00:44:23.080
and potentially months
without work.

00:44:23.080 --> 00:44:27.020
Meanwhile, India’s testing lags
far behind other nations,

00:44:27.020 --> 00:44:30.570
leading to fears the actual
number of COVID-19 infections

00:44:30.570 --> 00:44:33.330
is far,
far higher than reported.

00:44:33.330 --> 00:44:36.850
As of Tuesday, India had
conducted only 15,000 tests —

00:44:36.850 --> 00:44:40.000
15,000 in a nation
of 1.3 billion.

00:44:40.000 --> 00:44:41.300
Well, for more, we’re joined

00:44:41.300 --> 00:44:44.120
by the award-winning
Indian writer Amitav Ghosh,

00:44:44.120 --> 00:44:46.300
joining us from his home
in Brooklyn, New York,

00:44:46.300 --> 00:44:48.260
where he is
sheltering in place.

00:44:48.260 --> 00:44:51.170
His books include Gun Island
and The Great Derangement:

00:44:51.170 --> 00:44:53.550
Climate Change
and the Unthinkable.

00:44:53.550 --> 00:44:55.250
Thanks so much
for being with us.

00:44:56.620 --> 00:44:59.790
Let’s start with
what’s happening in India.

00:44:59.790 --> 00:45:04.450
Let’s talk about this largest
lockdown in human history.

00:45:05.060 --> 00:45:07.210
What do you understand
is going on, Amitav?

00:45:08.620 --> 00:45:11.700
AMITAV GHOSH: Well, it seems
to be a very chaotic situation.

00:45:12.540 --> 00:45:13.910
You know, let me say,
first of all,

00:45:13.910 --> 00:45:17.170
that one of the terrible things
about this lockdown

00:45:17.170 --> 00:45:19.860
is that it should have
happened a lot earlier.

00:45:19.860 --> 00:45:22.580
I mean, I’ve been self-isolating
here in Brooklyn

00:45:22.580 --> 00:45:24.280
for almost three weeks now.

00:45:24.840 --> 00:45:29.820
And I talk to my friends and my
family every day back in India.

00:45:30.540 --> 00:45:31.980
And really, for three weeks,

00:45:31.980 --> 00:45:35.820
they were just not taking
this seriously at all.

00:45:35.820 --> 00:45:38.700
And those signals have to come
from the government.

00:45:38.700 --> 00:45:40.400
For example, Floyd Cardoz,

00:45:40.400 --> 00:45:43.700
I’m told — you know,
he was a friend of mine.

00:45:43.700 --> 00:45:46.140
I’m really devastated to hear
about his passing.

00:45:46.870 --> 00:45:52.620
But I’m told he had a huge party
in Bombay earlier this month.

00:45:53.610 --> 00:45:56.100
And, you know,
if they had shut down

00:45:56.100 --> 00:45:57.640
these sort of big gatherings

00:45:57.640 --> 00:46:01.320
and so on two
to three weeks ago,

00:46:02.140 --> 00:46:05.040
it would have served an enormous
purpose, but they didn’t.

00:46:05.780 --> 00:46:09.050
And so, this lockdown has come
as a huge surprise.

00:46:09.050 --> 00:46:14.610
My family back in Calcutta,
they’re completely panicked

00:46:14.610 --> 00:46:16.830
because they didn’t have time
to go out

00:46:16.830 --> 00:46:18.950
and buy food or anything.

00:46:20.560 --> 00:46:24.320
And, you know, I’m just
talking about my family.

00:46:24.320 --> 00:46:29.540
As for the 80%
of India’s employment

00:46:29.540 --> 00:46:31.670
is in the informal sector,

00:46:31.670 --> 00:46:34.070
and those people are just
completely devastated.

00:46:34.580 --> 00:46:37.600
You saw the picture of people
being beaten by the police.

00:46:38.470 --> 00:46:41.710
A lot of informal workers
are now out on the streets.

00:46:41.710 --> 00:46:43.500
They lived
on the streets anyway.

00:46:43.500 --> 00:46:45.790
They have no way
to get back to their homes,

00:46:45.790 --> 00:46:48.600
which are maybe
hundreds of miles away.

00:46:49.160 --> 00:46:50.560
They’re just stuck
on the street.

00:46:50.560 --> 00:46:52.570
Yesterday I saw
a horrifying video

00:46:52.570 --> 00:46:54.870
of a young boy
being beaten by the police.

00:46:55.390 --> 00:46:57.090
And he was just out
on the street

00:46:57.770 --> 00:47:00.640
because there was nowhere —
he had nowhere to go.

00:47:00.640 --> 00:47:03.330
You see
these pictures of workers

00:47:03.330 --> 00:47:05.280
carrying their children
on their heads,

00:47:06.100 --> 00:47:10.810
trying to walk back hundreds
of miles to their families.

00:47:12.830 --> 00:47:14.850
It’s just a shocking situation.

00:47:16.120 --> 00:47:17.400
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Amitav
Ghosh,

00:47:17.400 --> 00:47:19.670
what do you expect
will happen now?

00:47:19.670 --> 00:47:21.370
What are you learning
from your family?

00:47:21.370 --> 00:47:22.580
Because at the moment,

00:47:22.580 --> 00:47:26.630
this lockdown is supposed
to last for three weeks.

00:47:26.630 --> 00:47:27.890
What are you hearing, though,

00:47:27.890 --> 00:47:31.850
about how long it’s likely
to continue beyond that?

00:47:31.850 --> 00:47:35.050
And also, what provisions
the Modi government

00:47:35.050 --> 00:47:39.100
has put in place,
if any, for people under curfew

00:47:39.100 --> 00:47:42.530
to get access
to even basic goods —

00:47:42.530 --> 00:47:44.650
food, drinking water, etc.?

00:47:46.040 --> 00:47:49.630
AMITAV GHOSH: Well,
the government has announced

00:47:49.630 --> 00:47:51.600
some sorts of relief measures,

00:47:51.600 --> 00:47:54.870
and it varies from state
to state in India.

00:47:54.870 --> 00:47:57.540
So, Kerala has actually
been very proactive,

00:47:57.540 --> 00:48:01.820
and they’ve acted very early
amongst Indian states.

00:48:03.310 --> 00:48:05.890
How effective these measures
will be, I just don’t know.

00:48:05.890 --> 00:48:09.770
You know, even delivery workers
are being beaten by the police.

00:48:10.770 --> 00:48:13.030
It just makes
absolutely no sense.

00:48:13.030 --> 00:48:14.680
Journalists trying
to get to work

00:48:14.680 --> 00:48:16.350
are being beaten by the police.

00:48:16.350 --> 00:48:18.490
Healthcare workers
are being beaten.

00:48:18.490 --> 00:48:21.480
So, you know,
as far as I can see,

00:48:21.480 --> 00:48:24.110
it’s kind of this strange
situation of chaos

00:48:24.110 --> 00:48:26.150
and panic
building upon each other.

00:48:27.040 --> 00:48:31.310
So, you know, middle-class
families like mine

00:48:31.310 --> 00:48:35.530
are able to stockpile a certain
amount of food at home.

00:48:36.300 --> 00:48:40.040
But you think of the people
who are stuck in tiny shanties,

00:48:41.870 --> 00:48:45.880
who have really not the ability
to even stockpile any food.

00:48:46.590 --> 00:48:49.060
And the weather is
turning hotter and hotter.

00:48:49.060 --> 00:48:50.760
They’re stuck inside.

00:48:51.320 --> 00:48:55.320
It’s just going to be
appalling for them.

00:48:55.320 --> 00:49:00.140
And let me say straightaway
that the reported numbers,

00:49:00.140 --> 00:49:01.890
we just cannot trust at all.

00:49:01.890 --> 00:49:04.660
We know now that really
the numbers reported

00:49:04.660 --> 00:49:07.870
are a function of the testing.
And as Amy said earlier,

00:49:07.870 --> 00:49:09.880
very few Indians
have been tested.

00:49:09.880 --> 00:49:13.060
What? It’s like 15,000
in a huge country?

00:49:13.850 --> 00:49:16.880
So, I mean, again,

00:49:16.880 --> 00:49:22.570
another statistic
that is not at all trustworthy

00:49:22.570 --> 00:49:25.480
is the number of people
who are dying,

00:49:25.480 --> 00:49:28.130
because a very large number
of deaths in India

00:49:28.130 --> 00:49:30.220
are not actually reported,

00:49:30.220 --> 00:49:32.420
or they’re not certified
by doctors.

00:49:32.930 --> 00:49:35.110
So we really have no idea

00:49:35.110 --> 00:49:37.290
at all of what’s going on
on the ground.

00:49:37.960 --> 00:49:39.250
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Amitav,

00:49:39.250 --> 00:49:41.320
could you elaborate
a little bit more?

00:49:41.320 --> 00:49:45.620
You’ve suggested here
the extraordinary inequality

00:49:45.620 --> 00:49:49.980
in the effects
and spread of this virus —

00:49:49.980 --> 00:49:51.480
of course,
here in the United States,

00:49:51.480 --> 00:49:54.320
but perhaps with different
orders of magnitude

00:49:54.320 --> 00:49:56.410
in countries like India

00:49:56.410 --> 00:50:01.070
with such a large population
that is poor —

00:50:02.150 --> 00:50:08.370
who this virus is likely
to impact the most,

00:50:09.450 --> 00:50:13.330
and the relationship
between these decades of —

00:50:13.330 --> 00:50:17.190
which you’ve pointed out —
decades of neoliberalism

00:50:17.790 --> 00:50:20.830
and the populations
that are going to be

00:50:20.830 --> 00:50:23.470
the most affected by this,
in India as well as here.

00:50:24.850 --> 00:50:28.200
AMITAV GHOSH: Well, you know,
the sort of neoliberal sorts

00:50:28.200 --> 00:50:30.140
of policies
that we’ve seen around the world

00:50:30.140 --> 00:50:34.510
have had the effect of greatly
increasing inequality, you know?

00:50:35.160 --> 00:50:37.890
So, you see this terrible
sort of cycle.

00:50:37.890 --> 00:50:40.960
I mean, a lot of the informal
workers in Delhi

00:50:40.960 --> 00:50:45.790
are actually farmers from areas

00:50:45.790 --> 00:50:48.440
that have been very badly hit
by climate change.

00:50:48.440 --> 00:50:49.990
In 2016, for example,

00:50:49.990 --> 00:50:52.289
there was a terrible
drought in central India.

00:50:53.520 --> 00:50:56.050
Hundreds of thousands of people
were leaving their villages

00:50:56.050 --> 00:50:58.950
every single day and flocking
into cities like Delhi,

00:50:58.950 --> 00:51:00.650
where they lived under flyovers.

00:51:01.400 --> 00:51:04.350
So, what are those people going
to do in this circumstance?

00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:06.860
How can they even return?

00:51:06.860 --> 00:51:10.870
Again, you know, obviously,
I mean, people live

00:51:10.870 --> 00:51:15.230
in very close contact
in slums, in shantytowns.

00:51:15.230 --> 00:51:17.790
It’s going to spread very,
very fast over there.

00:51:17.790 --> 00:51:20.520
Those people are not going to be
able to get themselves tested.

00:51:20.520 --> 00:51:22.820
They’re not going to be able
to go to hospitals.

00:51:22.820 --> 00:51:24.650
In any case,
at this point in time,

00:51:24.650 --> 00:51:27.940
I suspect hospitals
are going to be the prime center

00:51:27.940 --> 00:51:30.020
for the transmission
of this disease.

00:51:30.020 --> 00:51:31.990
You know, we are seeing
that around the world.

00:51:31.990 --> 00:51:33.230
There’s no reason to believe

00:51:33.230 --> 00:51:35.250
that
that won’t be the case in India.

00:51:35.250 --> 00:51:38.230
So, yes, you know,
just take one example.

00:51:38.230 --> 00:51:42.000
I mean, during this last week,

00:51:42.000 --> 00:51:44.299
as the panic was beginning
to spread in India,

00:51:45.620 --> 00:51:50.150
migrant workers started piling
into trains in thousands.

00:51:50.150 --> 00:51:54.020
You can imagine
in a small train compartment

00:51:54.020 --> 00:51:55.720
how quickly this will spread.

00:51:57.520 --> 00:52:00.560
AMY GOODMAN: If you could
comment, Amitav Ghosh,

00:52:00.560 --> 00:52:02.730
on President Trump
going to India

00:52:02.730 --> 00:52:05.340
right at the time
that people were saying

00:52:05.340 --> 00:52:08.170
he had to be speaking
about coronavirus,

00:52:08.170 --> 00:52:10.350
not only there,
but dealing

00:52:10.350 --> 00:52:13.380
with what’s happening
in the United States, as well,

00:52:13.380 --> 00:52:16.660
but instead he was there
at a stadium being celebrated,

00:52:16.660 --> 00:52:18.730
not saying any word,

00:52:18.730 --> 00:52:21.370
when it could have made
such an enormous difference?

00:52:21.370 --> 00:52:24.030
And also talk more about —
I mean,

00:52:24.030 --> 00:52:26.360
your book is titled
The Great Derangement:

00:52:26.360 --> 00:52:29.340
Climate Change
and the Unthinkable,

00:52:30.780 --> 00:52:34.070
very appropriate
for what’s happening right now.

00:52:34.070 --> 00:52:37.540
But if you could talk more
deeply about the connection

00:52:37.540 --> 00:52:42.030
between climate change
and the growth of these viruses,

00:52:42.030 --> 00:52:43.750
the spread of these viruses,

00:52:43.750 --> 00:52:46.780
and what we haven’t taken
seriously until this point?

00:52:48.620 --> 00:52:50.070
AMITAV GHOSH: Well, yes,
you’re right.

00:52:50.070 --> 00:52:53.580
I mean, just a few weeks ago,
President Trump was in India

00:52:54.420 --> 00:52:57.280
with the prime minister,
Narendra Modi.

00:52:57.280 --> 00:52:59.160
They were in a huge stadium

00:52:59.160 --> 00:53:01.470
with tens
of thousands of people.

00:53:01.470 --> 00:53:03.819
I think it was hundreds
of thousands, actually.

00:53:04.670 --> 00:53:07.580
And, you know,
you can just sense

00:53:07.580 --> 00:53:10.230
that this is a huge
incubator of the disease.

00:53:10.230 --> 00:53:13.200
You know,
even a couple weeks ago,

00:53:13.200 --> 00:53:16.620
there were massive cricket
matches going on across India.

00:53:16.620 --> 00:53:18.980
It was just a spectacle
of derangement.

00:53:18.980 --> 00:53:21.060
You know, my book is called
The Great Derangement,

00:53:21.060 --> 00:53:22.280
and every single day

00:53:22.280 --> 00:53:25.080
I see more and more signs
of this kind of derangement.

00:53:25.850 --> 00:53:29.310
So, you know, the relationship
with climate change,

00:53:29.310 --> 00:53:31.480
well, as far as I can tell,
obviously,

00:53:32.640 --> 00:53:34.860
one direct relationship

00:53:34.860 --> 00:53:36.680
is rising
temperatures will create —

00:53:38.220 --> 00:53:41.270
will make the transmission
of certain kinds of diseases

00:53:42.400 --> 00:53:47.030
easier in certain places.
But I think we can’t think of it

00:53:47.030 --> 00:53:49.460
only in terms
of a causal relationship.

00:53:50.570 --> 00:53:52.830
I think these things —
this pandemic,

00:53:53.380 --> 00:53:58.260
the global migration crisis,
so many other things

00:53:58.260 --> 00:54:04.610
— are actually all effects
of this great acceleration

00:54:04.610 --> 00:54:07.250
that we’ve been seeing
for the last 30 years,

00:54:08.510 --> 00:54:12.650
starting in about 1990,
since we’ve had this sort of

00:54:13.760 --> 00:54:15.770
neoliberal regime,
economic regime,

00:54:15.770 --> 00:54:17.470
put in place across the world.

00:54:17.980 --> 00:54:20.890
Half of all of the greenhouse
gas emissions

00:54:20.890 --> 00:54:25.850
that are in the skies
right now come since 1990.

00:54:26.790 --> 00:54:29.990
So, it’s exactly in this period
that we’ve witnessed

00:54:29.990 --> 00:54:34.070
this incredible acceleration
in travel, in mobility,

00:54:34.070 --> 00:54:35.960
all the things that
make it possible

00:54:35.960 --> 00:54:38.850
for a pandemic like this
to instantly,

00:54:38.850 --> 00:54:41.220
as it were,
spread itself around the world.

00:54:42.810 --> 00:54:45.360
NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Amitav,
can you speak specifically,

00:54:45.360 --> 00:54:48.170
on the question
of this great acceleration,

00:54:49.310 --> 00:54:53.240
to the Modi government’s
policies specifically?

00:54:53.240 --> 00:54:55.700
I mean, a lot of people
have criticized

00:54:55.700 --> 00:54:59.010
the Modi government for the way
in which it imposed this curfew,

00:54:59.780 --> 00:55:04.640
and compared it to his decision
to demonetize the currency

00:55:05.410 --> 00:55:07.000
a couple of years ago.

00:55:07.000 --> 00:55:09.720
So, could you talk about
the impact

00:55:09.720 --> 00:55:11.740
of the Modi
government’s policies

00:55:11.740 --> 00:55:14.680
both on the question
of inequality

00:55:14.680 --> 00:55:18.170
and the impact
on the climate crisis

00:55:18.170 --> 00:55:21.219
of some of the policies that
the Modi government has pursued?

00:55:21.990 --> 00:55:25.410
AMITAV GHOSH: See, the lockdown
announcement

00:55:25.410 --> 00:55:30.510
was made at 8 p.m. at night,
and the demonetization

00:55:30.510 --> 00:55:33.120
announcement was also made
in a similar way.

00:55:33.120 --> 00:55:35.090
And the demonetization
announcement created

00:55:35.090 --> 00:55:36.360
absolute panic

00:55:36.360 --> 00:55:40.390
that lasted for a long time,
disrupted lives

00:55:40.390 --> 00:55:45.210
and really rendered the informal
sector very, very vulnerable.

00:55:45.210 --> 00:55:47.600
They still have not recovered
from that.

00:55:47.600 --> 00:55:50.610
So, when this —
when it was announced

00:55:50.610 --> 00:55:51.860
that the prime minister

00:55:51.860 --> 00:55:53.940
is going to make another
sort of major announcement,

00:55:53.940 --> 00:55:57.220
already that created
a kind of incredible panic.

00:55:58.590 --> 00:56:02.570
And apart from that, you know,
the last few months in India

00:56:02.570 --> 00:56:07.110
have been incredibly difficult.

00:56:07.110 --> 00:56:09.750
I mean, the government
also announced

00:56:09.750 --> 00:56:12.240
a set of changes
in citizenship laws,

00:56:12.240 --> 00:56:14.710
which has completely
divided the country

00:56:14.710 --> 00:56:17.910
and created upheavals
across the country.

00:56:17.910 --> 00:56:20.640
This couldn’t in fact
have happened at a worse moment.

00:56:21.930 --> 00:56:27.180
So, you know, it’s going to
create a lot of uncertainty,

00:56:27.180 --> 00:56:29.060
a lot of panic going ahead.

00:56:29.060 --> 00:56:32.230
I don’t think anyone
can really foresee

00:56:32.230 --> 00:56:33.930
what lies ahead
in the next few weeks,

00:56:33.930 --> 00:56:38.900
because I feel absolutely sure
that three weeks is not enough.

00:56:38.900 --> 00:56:40.900
It’s going to be
much more than that.

00:56:40.900 --> 00:56:43.600
You know, we are just seeing
the beginnings

00:56:43.600 --> 00:56:45.590
of this pandemic in India.

00:56:46.260 --> 00:56:50.080
So, the Modi government’s
policies from the start

00:56:50.080 --> 00:56:53.000
have been
very anti-environmental.

00:56:53.810 --> 00:56:56.340
They’ve diluted
the Forest Rights Act,

00:56:56.340 --> 00:56:57.820
which protected the rights

00:56:57.820 --> 00:57:01.840
of many forest-dwelling
indigenous peoples.

00:57:02.440 --> 00:57:04.950
They’ve even diluted things
like — you know,

00:57:05.790 --> 00:57:08.820
in India,
we had strict regulations

00:57:08.820 --> 00:57:11.980
about building close to the sea,
to the coast.

00:57:11.980 --> 00:57:13.580
You know, there were
strict regulations

00:57:13.580 --> 00:57:16.420
about leaving a certain
amount of land

00:57:16.420 --> 00:57:18.340
that you couldn’t build on.

00:57:18.340 --> 00:57:21.760
So, obviously, hotels, resorts,
all those sorts of lobbies,

00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:23.640
they wanted that changed,

00:57:23.640 --> 00:57:26.240
and they were able
to push through a change.

00:57:26.240 --> 00:57:30.420
You just think about this moment
in time with sea level rise,

00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:34.790
and you’re suddenly allowed
to build closer

00:57:34.790 --> 00:57:37.089
and closer to the sea.
It’s a kind of madness.

00:57:38.470 --> 00:57:40.660
And, you know,
especially the devastation

00:57:40.660 --> 00:57:42.690
that is happening
in India’s forests,

00:57:42.690 --> 00:57:46.040
forests being opened up to
mining interests across India,

00:57:46.890 --> 00:57:49.570
all of this is going
to create absolute disaster,

00:57:49.570 --> 00:57:51.650
because we can see that

00:57:51.650 --> 00:57:54.480
it’s that kind of
ecological destruction,

00:57:56.240 --> 00:57:58.710
it’s deforestation,
that creates the conditions

00:57:58.710 --> 00:58:02.620
for these animal-to-human
transmissions of viruses.

00:58:02.620 --> 00:58:03.900
AMY GOODMAN: Amitav Ghosh,

00:58:03.900 --> 00:58:05.210
we’re going to have
to leave it there.

00:58:05.210 --> 00:58:06.610
I want to thank you
for being with us,

00:58:06.610 --> 00:58:09.530
India writer based in Brooklyn,
where he’s self-isolating,

00:58:09.530 --> 00:58:11.000
author of The Great Derangement:

00:58:11.000 --> 00:58:13.050
Climate Change
and the Unthinkable.

00:58:13.700 --> 00:58:15.230
And that does it for the show.

00:58:15.230 --> 00:58:19.910
We cannot end this broadcast
without a moment of joy.

00:58:19.910 --> 00:58:22.210
And that joy is that
it’s Nermeen Shaikh’s birthday.

00:58:22.210 --> 00:58:23.430
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Oh gosh.

00:58:23.430 --> 00:58:26.750
AMY GOODMAN: Nermeen, a very,
very Happy Birthday!

00:58:26.750 --> 00:58:29.200
I wish you were
right here at my side

00:58:29.200 --> 00:58:31.110
so you could blow out
this candle with me.

00:58:31.110 --> 00:58:32.340
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Oh, thank you.

00:58:32.340 --> 00:58:35.020
AMY GOODMAN: But you are
so important in this broadcast

00:58:35.020 --> 00:58:37.450
and represent such
an important ray of hope,

00:58:37.450 --> 00:58:40.500
as do all our colleagues
here at Democracy Now!,

00:58:40.500 --> 00:58:42.800
both at the studio
and self-isolating

00:58:42.800 --> 00:58:44.730
but working so hard at home.
Happy Birthday, Nermeen!

00:58:44.730 --> 00:58:46.000
NERMEEN SHAIKH: Thank you, Amy.
Thank you.

00:58:46.000 --> 00:58:47.440
AMY GOODMAN: Happy,
Happy Birthday,

00:58:47.440 --> 00:58:49.720
dear Nermeen!
Democracy Now!

00:58:50.760 --> 00:58:54.810
is brought to you by
a remarkably dedicated group

00:58:54.810 --> 00:58:58.040
of passionate producers,
videographers.

00:58:58.040 --> 00:59:00.020
I’m Amy Goodman,
from New York City.

00:59:00.020 --> 00:59:02.050
Thanks so much.