WEBVTT 00:00:15.360 --> 00:00:18.390 From New York, this is Democracy Now! 00:00:19.360 --> 00:00:23.560 The communities that was hardest hit by this water crisis 00:00:23.560 --> 00:00:25.430 are in South and West Jackson, 00:00:25.430 --> 00:00:28.260 which, again, are the predominantly or majority 00:00:28.260 --> 00:00:30.470 Black and Brown communities in the city. 00:00:30.470 --> 00:00:34.010 The capital of Mississippi is beginning its fifth week 00:00:34.010 --> 00:00:36.030 without safe drinking water. 00:00:36.030 --> 00:00:39.370 Most of Jackson, which is 80% Black, 00:00:39.370 --> 00:00:41.610 remains under an order to boil water. 00:00:42.190 --> 00:00:45.760 Some don’t have any running water at all, 00:00:45.760 --> 00:00:47.540 this in the midst of a pandemic 00:00:47.540 --> 00:00:50.390 where washing hands can be a matter of life and death. 00:00:51.000 --> 00:00:54.810 We’ll speak to Jackson Mayor Chokwe Antar Lumumba 00:00:54.810 --> 00:00:56.660 about the roots of the crisis, 00:00:56.660 --> 00:00:59.990 from climate change to white supremacy. 00:00:59.990 --> 00:01:03.720 Then, Deb Haaland is being sworn in as secretary of the interior, 00:01:03.720 --> 00:01:06.010 becoming the first Native American to serve 00:01:06.010 --> 00:01:07.710 in a U.S. presidential cabinet. 00:01:08.280 --> 00:01:11.750 We look at one major issue confronting her: 00:01:11.750 --> 00:01:15.780 the toxic legacy of thousands of closed uranium mines, 00:01:15.780 --> 00:01:17.480 many on Native land. 00:01:18.460 --> 00:01:21.110 Uranium mining harms the health of our population, 00:01:21.110 --> 00:01:23.290 the environment, and has hurt our economy. 00:01:23.930 --> 00:01:26.150 The U.S. government has refused to clean up 00:01:26.150 --> 00:01:28.180 the mess they’ve made in New Mexico. 00:01:28.180 --> 00:01:31.320 Then, we look at a remarkable new podcast 00:01:31.320 --> 00:01:34.330 about a man sentenced to life in prison as a juvenile 00:01:34.330 --> 00:01:37.660 and a journalist who befriended him and chronicled his story, 00:01:37.660 --> 00:01:40.250 all the way to unexpected freedom. 00:01:42.750 --> 00:01:46.760 I’ve got a date to go home. 00:01:46.760 --> 00:01:50.510 I’ve got a date to go home, y’all: November 20th. 00:01:50.510 --> 00:01:52.560 Oh my god, Suave! 00:01:52.560 --> 00:01:55.300 We’ll speak to journalist Maria Hinojosa 00:01:55.300 --> 00:01:59.050 and David Luis Gonzalez, who is known as Suave. 00:01:59.050 --> 00:02:00.860 All that and more, coming up. 00:02:05.100 --> 00:02:08.310 Welcome to Democracy Now!, democracynow.org, 00:02:08.310 --> 00:02:11.100 The Quarantine Report. I’m Amy Goodman. 00:02:11.100 --> 00:02:14.420 In Atlanta, a gunman shot dead eight people 00:02:14.420 --> 00:02:16.880 at three massage parlors Tuesday evening. 00:02:16.880 --> 00:02:19.660 Six of the victims were of Asian descent; 00:02:19.660 --> 00:02:21.400 all but one were women. 00:02:21.400 --> 00:02:24.300 A 21-year-old white male suspect, Robert Aaron 00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:26.270 Long, has been taken into custody. 00:02:26.270 --> 00:02:28.590 Anti-Asian hate crimes have surged 00:02:28.590 --> 00:02:32.360 since the start of the pandemic. The group Stop AAPI 00:02:32.360 --> 00:02:36.020 Hate says nearly 4,000 anti-Asian crimes 00:02:36.020 --> 00:02:38.480 have been reported over the past year. 00:02:38.480 --> 00:02:40.610 Several cities, including New York, 00:02:40.610 --> 00:02:43.290 have said they would deploy more police officers 00:02:43.290 --> 00:02:46.150 to Asian neighborhoods in the wake of the attack, 00:02:46.150 --> 00:02:48.830 despite many in Asian American communities 00:02:48.830 --> 00:02:51.580 saying more policing does nothing to fix 00:02:51.580 --> 00:02:53.050 the underlying issues 00:02:53.050 --> 00:02:56.130 but contributes to systemic, structural racism. 00:02:56.900 --> 00:02:58.580 A new report by Public Citizen 00:02:58.580 --> 00:03:01.500 finds about one-third of COVID-19 deaths 00:03:01.500 --> 00:03:04.770 in the U.S. were tied to a lack of insurance. 00:03:04.770 --> 00:03:08.340 Nearly 537,000 deaths have been reported 00:03:08.340 --> 00:03:10.200 since the start of the pandemic. 00:03:10.200 --> 00:03:12.660 Millions of infections would likely have been 00:03:12.660 --> 00:03:16.550 prevented under a Medicare for All system, says Public Citizen. 00:03:16.550 --> 00:03:19.870 This comes as Democratic Congressmembers Pramila Jayapal 00:03:19.870 --> 00:03:21.080 and Debbie Dingell 00:03:21.080 --> 00:03:25.210 are introducing the Medicare for All Act of 2021 today 00:03:25.210 --> 00:03:28.640 — one year after the first COVID-19 cases were confirmed 00:03:28.640 --> 00:03:31.530 in all 50 states and the District of Columbia. 00:03:31.530 --> 00:03:34.270 The bill has over 100 co-sponsors. 00:03:34.270 --> 00:03:36.490 President Biden has rejected Medicare for 00:03:36.490 --> 00:03:39.510 All, even though the majority of Americans support it. 00:03:40.950 --> 00:03:42.470 CNN is reporting the White House 00:03:42.470 --> 00:03:44.460 is planning to send additional vaccines 00:03:44.460 --> 00:03:46.450 to emerging coronavirus hot spots 00:03:46.450 --> 00:03:48.060 in an effort to stem new surges, 00:03:48.060 --> 00:03:49.750 including those linked to variants 00:03:49.750 --> 00:03:51.450 believed to be more contagious. 00:03:52.010 --> 00:03:55.190 Although overall cases have sharply declined 00:03:55.190 --> 00:03:57.630 since this winter’s surge, 00:03:57.630 --> 00:04:00.640 over a dozen states have reported a rise in new cases. 00:04:00.640 --> 00:04:02.010 In Oklahoma, 00:04:02.010 --> 00:04:04.580 the Chickasaw Nation and other tribal territories 00:04:04.580 --> 00:04:06.830 have started offering vaccine appointments 00:04:06.830 --> 00:04:09.840 to all Oklahoma residents. 00:04:09.840 --> 00:04:11.740 Native Americans have been disproportionately hit 00:04:11.740 --> 00:04:13.010 by the pandemic, 00:04:13.010 --> 00:04:16.390 but tribal health providers have outpaced many states 00:04:16.390 --> 00:04:18.700 and counties in getting out the vaccine. 00:04:19.710 --> 00:04:23.320 Moderna is starting human trials on its vaccine in children 00:04:23.320 --> 00:04:26.340 and babies starting as young as 6 months old. 00:04:26.340 --> 00:04:29.380 In Washington, D.C., the Senate confirmed Isabel Guzman 00:04:29.380 --> 00:04:32.390 to lead the Small Business Administration, 00:04:32.390 --> 00:04:34.170 where she will oversee the implementation 00:04:34.170 --> 00:04:36.220 of the Paycheck Protection Program, 00:04:36.220 --> 00:04:38.980 a key part of the recently passed coronavirus 00:04:38.980 --> 00:04:40.680 stimulus package. 00:04:41.280 --> 00:04:44.670 The World Health Organization urged caution for countries 00:04:44.670 --> 00:04:47.440 considering vaccination certifications, 00:04:47.440 --> 00:04:50.370 including the potential use of "vaccine passports." 00:04:50.370 --> 00:04:51.610 Dr. Michael Ryan: 00:04:51.610 --> 00:04:54.020 "We have to be exceptionally careful, 00:04:54.540 --> 00:04:55.830 because right now we’re dealing 00:04:55.830 --> 00:04:59.040 with a tremendously iniquitous situation in the world, 00:04:59.040 --> 00:05:00.510 where the likelihood of you being offered 00:05:00.510 --> 00:05:05.130 or getting a vaccine is very much to do with the country 00:05:05.130 --> 00:05:08.830 you live in, very much to do with the level of wealth, 00:05:08.830 --> 00:05:11.560 the level of influence that you or your government 00:05:11.560 --> 00:05:13.300 has on global markets." 00:05:13.300 --> 00:05:16.360 In Yemen, Human Rights Watch published a report Tuesday 00:05:16.360 --> 00:05:18.710 on the devastating fire that killed 00:05:18.710 --> 00:05:21.350 at least 60 refugees, most of them from Ethiopia, 00:05:21.350 --> 00:05:23.050 at an immigrant jail in the capital 00:05:23.050 --> 00:05:25.080 Sana’a earlier this month. 00:05:25.080 --> 00:05:27.090 The blaze was reportedly triggered after 00:05:27.090 --> 00:05:30.830 Houthi security forces launched projectiles into the jail, 00:05:30.830 --> 00:05:33.670 where refugees had been protesting their conditions. 00:05:33.670 --> 00:05:35.719 This is one of the survivors of the fire. 00:05:36.380 --> 00:05:39.800 Ibrahim Mohamed: "The smoke went through my nose, 00:05:39.800 --> 00:05:42.080 and I was suffocated and passed out. 00:05:42.080 --> 00:05:45.450 I covered myself with a blanket and jumped through the window. 00:05:45.450 --> 00:05:47.010 I saw my friends burning to death." 00:05:47.010 --> 00:05:49.390 In other news from Yemen, dozens of protesters 00:05:49.390 --> 00:05:51.030 stormed the presidential palace 00:05:51.030 --> 00:05:52.950 in the port city of Aden Tuesday, 00:05:52.950 --> 00:05:54.980 demanding payment of delayed wages 00:05:54.980 --> 00:05:56.180 and better living conditions. 00:05:56.180 --> 00:05:58.440 The protesters, who were public-sector workers, 00:05:58.440 --> 00:06:01.140 left peacefully after they delivered their demands. 00:06:01.140 --> 00:06:02.800 The U.S.-backed, Saudi-led war 00:06:02.800 --> 00:06:04.970 and blockade have crippled Yemen’s economy 00:06:04.970 --> 00:06:07.830 and created the world’s worst humanitarian disaster. 00:06:12.670 --> 00:06:15.860 The Colombian journalist Jineth Bedoya 00:06:15.860 --> 00:06:17.210 has accused state-backed, 00:06:17.210 --> 00:06:19.500 right-wing paramilitaries of abducting, 00:06:19.500 --> 00:06:21.590 torturing and raping her in 2000. 00:06:21.590 --> 00:06:23.890 Bedoya told the Inter-American Court of Human Rights 00:06:23.890 --> 00:06:26.380 that she was abducted outside a prison in Bogotá 00:06:26.380 --> 00:06:28.910 while on a reporting trip. She was then drugged, beaten 00:06:28.910 --> 00:06:31.460 and repeatedly raped by several attackers. 00:06:31.460 --> 00:06:33.880 At the time, Bedoya was investigating U.S.-backed, 00:06:33.880 --> 00:06:36.760 right-wing paramilitary death squads in Colombia. 00:06:36.760 --> 00:06:39.280 Bedoya said she has since faced decades 00:06:39.280 --> 00:06:43.020 of "persecution, intimidation and constant threats." 00:06:43.020 --> 00:06:44.400 Colombia is attempting to block 00:06:44.400 --> 00:06:46.520 the Inter-American Court of Human Rights 00:06:46.520 --> 00:06:47.820 from moving ahead with the case 00:06:47.820 --> 00:06:51.080 by seeking the recusal of five of the six judges. 00:06:51.080 --> 00:06:53.540 Bedoya spoke about the impact of her case in a video 00:06:53.540 --> 00:06:55.830 posted on social media earlier this month. 00:06:57.480 --> 00:06:59.380 Jineth Bedoya: 00:06:59.380 --> 00:07:01.910 "To bring my case before an international court 00:07:01.910 --> 00:07:04.610 is not only to vindicate what has happened to me 00:07:04.610 --> 00:07:06.400 as a woman and as a journalist, 00:07:07.080 --> 00:07:10.680 but to open a window of hope for thousands of women and girls 00:07:10.680 --> 00:07:13.290 who, like me, had to face sexual violence 00:07:13.290 --> 00:07:16.380 in the midst of the Colombian armed conflict." 00:07:16.380 --> 00:07:19.690 British Prime Minister Boris Johnson announced his government 00:07:19.690 --> 00:07:22.400 is lifting the cap on its nuclear stockpile, 00:07:22.400 --> 00:07:25.499 increasing the number of Trident nuclear warheads by over 40%. 00:07:26.350 --> 00:07:29.670 The move ends three decades of gradual nuclear disarmament. 00:07:29.670 --> 00:07:30.920 Meanwhile, in the U.S., 00:07:30.920 --> 00:07:33.620 a new report by the Federation of American Scientists 00:07:33.620 --> 00:07:38.150 says plans to build a new $100 billion nuclear missile 00:07:38.150 --> 00:07:43.030 are being driven by industry lobbying and politicians 00:07:43.030 --> 00:07:46.150 whose states will economically benefit from the project, 00:07:46.150 --> 00:07:49.490 despite objections from military and civilian leaders 00:07:49.490 --> 00:07:51.900 around the cost and lack of security relevance 00:07:51.900 --> 00:07:54.020 for the "Cold War-era weapon." 00:07:54.020 --> 00:07:55.790 The cost of building and maintaining 00:07:55.790 --> 00:07:58.230 the Ground-Based Strategic Deterrent, 00:07:58.230 --> 00:08:01.750 or GBSD, which would be built by Northrop Grumman 00:08:03.450 --> 00:08:05.800 with help from Lockheed Martin and others, 00:08:05.800 --> 00:08:10.680 would swell to $264 billion over the coming decades. 00:08:11.820 --> 00:08:13.180 The debate over the Senate 00:08:13.180 --> 00:08:15.450 filibuster continues in Washington, D.C. 00:08:15.450 --> 00:08:18.130 On Tuesday, President Biden said he supports a return 00:08:18.130 --> 00:08:19.690 to the "talking filibuster," 00:08:19.690 --> 00:08:21.790 which requires senators to delay a bill 00:08:21.790 --> 00:08:24.570 by talking on the Senate floor. Earlier in the day, 00:08:24.570 --> 00:08:26.450 Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell 00:08:26.450 --> 00:08:28.390 threatened he would go "scorched earth" 00:08:28.390 --> 00:08:31.150 if Democrats move to eliminate the filibuster, 00:08:31.150 --> 00:08:34.770 turning the Senate into "a hundred-car pile-up," 00:08:34.770 --> 00:08:38.240 and warned Republicans would retaliate with conservative laws 00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:40.130 if and when they retake the Senate. 00:08:40.130 --> 00:08:42.950 On Monday, Senate Majority Whip Dick Durbin 00:08:42.950 --> 00:08:44.920 took to the floor to call for an end 00:08:44.920 --> 00:08:47.470 to what he called "legislative rock bottom." 00:08:47.470 --> 00:08:49.320 Sen. Dick Durbin: 00:08:49.320 --> 00:08:52.790 "Today, nearly 65 years after Strom Thurmond’s marathon 00:08:52.790 --> 00:08:54.820 defense of Jim Crow, 00:08:54.820 --> 00:08:58.520 the filibuster is still making a mockery of American democracy. 00:08:59.660 --> 00:09:01.860 The filibuster is still being misused 00:09:01.860 --> 00:09:05.550 by some senators to block legislation urgently needed 00:09:05.550 --> 00:09:07.410 and supported by a strong majority 00:09:07.410 --> 00:09:08.730 of the American people." 00:09:08.730 --> 00:09:10.650 At least two Democratic senators, 00:09:10.650 --> 00:09:12.960 Joe Manchin and Kyrsten Sinema, 00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:15.520 have objected to doing away with the filibuster, 00:09:15.520 --> 00:09:17.260 though Manchin recently indicated 00:09:17.260 --> 00:09:19.760 he may be open to reforming it. 00:09:20.340 --> 00:09:22.140 Democratic Senator Sheldon Whitehouse 00:09:22.140 --> 00:09:23.630 is calling on the Justice Department 00:09:23.630 --> 00:09:26.710 to probe the FBI’s 2018 background check 00:09:26.710 --> 00:09:29.110 of Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh, 00:09:29.110 --> 00:09:31.080 which Senator Whitehouse says was 00:09:31.080 --> 00:09:34.100 "politically constrained and perhaps fake." 00:09:34.640 --> 00:09:38.590 Justice Kavanaugh was accused by Christine Blasey Ford 00:09:38.590 --> 00:09:42.120 of sexually assaulting her when they were both teenagers, 00:09:42.120 --> 00:09:43.890 as well as several other allegations 00:09:43.890 --> 00:09:45.210 of sexual misconduct. 00:09:45.210 --> 00:09:48.560 But the FBI failed to interview Blasey Ford and others 00:09:48.560 --> 00:09:50.760 who came forward during their investigation. 00:09:51.290 --> 00:09:53.520 Whitehouse is also raising questions 00:09:53.520 --> 00:09:56.850 about Kavanaugh’s history of substantial personal debts, 00:09:56.850 --> 00:09:59.660 which seemingly vanished shortly before Donald Trump 00:09:59.660 --> 00:10:02.170 nominated him to the Supreme Court. 00:10:03.300 --> 00:10:06.720 As investigations continue into the deadly January 6 U.S. 00:10:06.720 --> 00:10:09.370 Capitol insurrection, a 16-year-old 00:10:09.940 --> 00:10:12.800 testified in a court hearing against her father, 00:10:12.800 --> 00:10:15.200 a Texas Three Percenter 00:10:15.200 --> 00:10:19.440 who allegedly set up a security company to circumvent gun laws. 00:10:19.440 --> 00:10:21.490 After the riot, Guy Reffitt threatened 00:10:21.490 --> 00:10:24.650 to kill his two teenage children if they reported him, 00:10:24.650 --> 00:10:27.050 saying, "Traitors get shot." 00:10:29.860 --> 00:10:32.660 Here in New York, over 3,000 research 00:10:32.660 --> 00:10:35.080 and teaching assistants at Columbia University 00:10:35.080 --> 00:10:36.420 have gone on strike 00:10:36.420 --> 00:10:39.070 after two years of unsuccessful negotiations 00:10:39.070 --> 00:10:40.500 with the prestigious college 00:10:40.500 --> 00:10:42.550 over their union’s first contract. 00:10:42.550 --> 00:10:44.630 Graduate workers are seeking fair wages, 00:10:44.630 --> 00:10:46.880 improvements to healthcare and childcare provisions, 00:10:46.880 --> 00:10:49.470 as well as protections against discrimination 00:10:49.470 --> 00:10:51.240 and sexual harassment at work. 00:10:51.240 --> 00:10:53.350 Workers say Columbia has threatened to withhold pay 00:10:53.350 --> 00:10:54.760 for those on strike 00:10:54.760 --> 00:10:57.630 and is spreading anti-union messaging to students. 00:11:00.130 --> 00:11:03.610 In more labor news from New York, 00:11:03.610 --> 00:11:06.200 taxi drivers have led daily protests 00:11:06.200 --> 00:11:09.330 for over a week against Mayor Bill de Blasio’s plan 00:11:09.330 --> 00:11:10.800 he claims will offer relief 00:11:10.800 --> 00:11:13.480 to heavily indebted taxi medallion owners, 00:11:13.480 --> 00:11:15.570 who have suffered even more economic loss 00:11:15.570 --> 00:11:17.270 during the pandemic. 00:11:21.850 --> 00:11:24.000 Taxi drivers: 00:11:25.080 --> 00:11:28.120 "No more suicide! No more bankruptcy! 00:11:28.120 --> 00:11:29.990 No more bankruptcy! No more suicide!" 00:11:29.990 --> 00:11:32.390 De Blasio’s plan does not provide any debt relief, 00:11:32.390 --> 00:11:35.090 and instead offers modest loans to taxi drivers 00:11:35.090 --> 00:11:36.980 to pay off their debt, accrued largely 00:11:36.980 --> 00:11:38.740 because of the artificially inflated 00:11:38.740 --> 00:11:41.170 cost of taxi medallions. 00:11:41.170 --> 00:11:44.830 Bhairavi Desai of the New York Taxi Workers Alliance said, 00:11:44.830 --> 00:11:48.880 "It’s a cash bailout for lenders while drivers are left to drown 00:11:48.880 --> 00:11:51.510 in debt, foreclosure, and bankruptcy. … 00:11:51.510 --> 00:11:54.080 The mayor’s plan is a disgraceful betrayal 00:11:54.080 --> 00:11:57.050 from a city that already has blood on its hands." 00:11:58.170 --> 00:12:00.460 And those are some of the headlines this is Democracy 00:12:00.460 --> 00:12:03.350 Now, Democracynow.org, the War and Peace Report. 00:12:03.350 --> 00:12:05.050 I’m Amy Goodman. 00:12:14.830 --> 00:12:18.340 AMY GOODMAN: We begin today’s show in Jackson, Mississippi, 00:12:18.340 --> 00:12:21.700 where residents are facing two public health crises: 00:12:21.700 --> 00:12:25.930 the COVID pandemic and almost no clean drinking water 00:12:25.930 --> 00:12:29.710 for more than a month. On the pandemic front, 00:12:29.710 --> 00:12:32.500 Mississippi has become the second state in the nation 00:12:32.500 --> 00:12:37.150 to open up vaccine eligibility to all residents over age 16. 00:12:37.700 --> 00:12:40.410 Twenty percent of adults in Mississippi 00:12:40.410 --> 00:12:43.820 has received at least one dose of a vaccine. 00:12:43.820 --> 00:12:47.760 Public health experts are urging residents to keep wearing masks, 00:12:47.760 --> 00:12:49.670 even though the state’s Republican governor 00:12:49.670 --> 00:12:52.720 has lifted the statewide mask mandate, 00:12:52.720 --> 00:12:55.100 and to regularly wash their hands — 00:12:55.100 --> 00:12:58.330 something that’s been hard to do for the past month 00:12:58.330 --> 00:13:00.560 in Jackson, the state’s capital, 00:13:00.560 --> 00:13:03.670 which has gone five weeks without safe drinking water. 00:13:04.210 --> 00:13:06.550 The deadly February winter storm 00:13:06.550 --> 00:13:09.050 that left most of Texas without power for days 00:13:09.050 --> 00:13:12.410 also devastated other Southern states. 00:13:12.410 --> 00:13:14.870 In Jackson, the freezing temperatures 00:13:14.870 --> 00:13:18.440 burst pipes and water mains, leaving most of Jackson 00:13:18.440 --> 00:13:20.980 without reliable access to running water. 00:13:20.980 --> 00:13:24.010 While water delivery has largely been restored, 00:13:24.010 --> 00:13:28.280 "boil water" orders remain in effect for most residents. 00:13:28.280 --> 00:13:30.640 The crisis highlights how climate change 00:13:30.640 --> 00:13:34.310 threatens much of the nation’s aging infrastructure. 00:13:34.310 --> 00:13:36.280 For Jackson, there are no easy solutions. 00:13:36.280 --> 00:13:38.580 The city estimates it could cost $2 billion 00:13:39.110 --> 00:13:42.560 to fix the city’s water system, but Jackson is a poor city 00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:45.390 in the poorest state in the country. 00:13:45.390 --> 00:13:47.240 The city is 82% 00:13:47.240 --> 00:13:50.310 Black, while the state Legislature is majority white. 00:13:50.970 --> 00:13:53.370 White politicians have openly suggested 00:13:53.370 --> 00:13:56.400 Jackson’s problems are because of its Black leadership. 00:13:56.400 --> 00:13:59.270 Mississippi’s Lieutenant Governor Delbert Hosemann 00:13:59.270 --> 00:14:02.690 criticized Jackson’s handling of the crisis by saying, quote, 00:14:02.690 --> 00:14:07.000 "You remember during Kane Ditto’s administration, 00:14:07.000 --> 00:14:11.370 he did repair work on water and sewer. 00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:13.500 So what happened since then?” 00:14:13.500 --> 00:14:16.200 Kane Ditto was Jackson’s last white mayor. 00:14:16.750 --> 00:14:19.910 Donna Ladd of the Jackson Free Press recently wrote, quote, 00:14:19.910 --> 00:14:22.140 "Make no mistake, the fact that low-income 00:14:22.140 --> 00:14:25.970 Jacksonians are living amid the stench of toilets 00:14:25.970 --> 00:14:28.310 that won’t flush is a direct legacy 00:14:28.310 --> 00:14:31.050 of white-supremacist thinking at the state level, 00:14:31.050 --> 00:14:34.280 not the failure of a few bill collectors in the city 00:14:34.280 --> 00:14:37.330 to collect on enough delinquent customers." 00:14:37.330 --> 00:14:39.150 We go now to Jackson, Mississippi, 00:14:39.150 --> 00:14:42.520 where we’re joined by Mayor Chokwe Antar Lumumba. 00:14:42.520 --> 00:14:45.600 He has served as mayor since 2017. 00:14:45.600 --> 00:14:47.230 His father, Chokwe Lumumba, 00:14:47.230 --> 00:14:50.440 also briefly served as mayor before dying unexpectedly 00:14:50.440 --> 00:14:53.710 in 2014 eight months into his first term. 00:14:54.690 --> 00:14:57.920 Mayor, it’s great to have you back on Democracy Now! 00:14:57.920 --> 00:15:01.930 Your city is facing a massive crisis — two. 00:15:02.530 --> 00:15:04.950 Of course, you’re dealing, like the whole country, 00:15:04.950 --> 00:15:09.820 with the coronavirus pandemic. And at the same time, 00:15:09.820 --> 00:15:13.340 you haven’t had clean drinking water for a month. 00:15:13.340 --> 00:15:16.290 Can you explain what’s happening and what needs to be done? 00:15:16.840 --> 00:15:18.210 MAYOR CHOKWE ANTAR LUMUMBA: Yes. 00:15:18.210 --> 00:15:20.330 First, Amy, thank you for having me again, 00:15:20.330 --> 00:15:22.330 and thank you for lifting up this issue. 00:15:23.060 --> 00:15:28.450 What we suffered after the two winter storms — 00:15:28.450 --> 00:15:30.799 and I need to make certain that I clarify that, 00:15:31.440 --> 00:15:34.340 that we had two consecutive storms that took place, 00:15:35.080 --> 00:15:38.910 leaving us in prolonged low temperatures in the city 00:15:38.910 --> 00:15:40.120 of Jackson, 00:15:40.120 --> 00:15:43.310 historically low temperatures in the city of Jackson. 00:15:43.310 --> 00:15:46.230 And what it did was it created complications 00:15:46.230 --> 00:15:48.329 getting water into our treatment facility. 00:15:48.980 --> 00:15:51.700 The raw water screens are at the inception 00:15:51.700 --> 00:15:56.060 point of the water treatment facility, in which they froze. 00:15:56.060 --> 00:15:58.480 And because we couldn’t get water in, 00:15:59.380 --> 00:16:01.350 it complicated or made it impossible 00:16:01.350 --> 00:16:04.090 for us to clean water and get water out, 00:16:04.870 --> 00:16:08.340 leaving our distribution system compromised. 00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:10.210 And as consumption was high, 00:16:10.780 --> 00:16:12.760 it drained many of the tanks across the city. 00:16:12.760 --> 00:16:14.040 And our PSI — 00:16:14.040 --> 00:16:17.510 our water treatment facility operates off of hydraulics. 00:16:17.510 --> 00:16:21.880 The PSI went down to 37. We need our PSI at about 90 00:16:21.880 --> 00:16:24.530 in order to distribute water throughout the system. 00:16:24.530 --> 00:16:26.330 This is on account of an aged, 00:16:27.030 --> 00:16:30.180 aging infrastructure of a legacy city, 00:16:30.700 --> 00:16:33.100 money which has not been contributed over time, 00:16:33.670 --> 00:16:35.530 while the city of Jackson contributes 00:16:35.530 --> 00:16:37.770 millions of dollars each and every year, 00:16:37.770 --> 00:16:41.870 and has done so since Kane Ditto, 00:16:41.870 --> 00:16:44.430 before Kane Ditto, and continues to do so. 00:16:44.940 --> 00:16:48.220 What we have not is had a state leadership 00:16:48.220 --> 00:16:52.350 that identifies this as not just a city of Jackson problem, 00:16:53.110 --> 00:16:57.140 but a ongoing and shared problem of not only the city, 00:16:57.140 --> 00:16:58.360 but the state. 00:16:58.360 --> 00:17:00.380 And I’d like to just emphasize that in a few ways, 00:17:00.380 --> 00:17:01.660 if I could, Amy. 00:17:01.660 --> 00:17:03.520 One, the city of Jackson is the largest city 00:17:03.520 --> 00:17:04.910 by a factor of three, 00:17:04.910 --> 00:17:07.740 the highest contributor to revenue to the state. 00:17:07.740 --> 00:17:09.280 We are the state capital, 00:17:09.280 --> 00:17:11.980 which means that many of our properties are untaxable. 00:17:11.980 --> 00:17:14.310 We do not get payment in lieu of taxes. 00:17:14.310 --> 00:17:17.190 Furthermore, we provide water to state facilities 00:17:17.190 --> 00:17:19.900 at no cost to the state of Mississippi. 00:17:19.900 --> 00:17:21.910 So, if they just paid their water bill, 00:17:21.910 --> 00:17:24.610 the city of Jackson would be in a lot better position. 00:17:26.220 --> 00:17:27.920 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, Mayor, I wanted to ask you — 00:17:28.540 --> 00:17:31.110 for the brief time that your father was in office, 00:17:31.110 --> 00:17:32.940 one of the things that he was praised 00:17:32.940 --> 00:17:36.670 for was attempting to address the infrastructure problem. 00:17:36.670 --> 00:17:39.970 As I recall, he tried to institute a new tax 00:17:39.970 --> 00:17:43.290 to provide better infrastructure services. 00:17:43.290 --> 00:17:47.910 What’s been the problem between the — you mentioned one aspect, 00:17:47.910 --> 00:17:49.510 the state not paying its water bill — 00:17:49.510 --> 00:17:51.890 but in terms of being able to implement 00:17:52.900 --> 00:17:54.800 upgrades of the system? 00:17:54.800 --> 00:17:56.010 MAYOR CHOKWE ANTAR LUMUMBA: Well, 00:17:56.010 --> 00:17:57.710 I think that you would have to understand 00:17:57.710 --> 00:18:01.840 the comprehensive infrastructure problem in the city of Jackson. 00:18:01.840 --> 00:18:05.930 The 1% sales tax generates about $13 million annually. 00:18:06.600 --> 00:18:07.980 And when I said $2 billion, 00:18:07.980 --> 00:18:10.830 I didn’t say $2 billion for the water system; 00:18:10.830 --> 00:18:12.390 I said comprehensively. 00:18:12.390 --> 00:18:15.820 The way we know that is that the EPA has estimated 00:18:15.820 --> 00:18:19.520 that our wastewater problem is about a billion dollars, 00:18:19.520 --> 00:18:21.840 where sewage is coming up in people’s yards 00:18:21.840 --> 00:18:23.610 and in their backyards 00:18:23.610 --> 00:18:26.090 and in ditches, and those issues. 00:18:26.090 --> 00:18:29.290 So, that’s one. That’s before we get to the drinking water, 00:18:29.290 --> 00:18:32.650 which we see the crisis that we have on our hands 00:18:32.650 --> 00:18:34.440 after the February storms. 00:18:35.340 --> 00:18:37.450 That doesn’t get to the drainage. 00:18:37.450 --> 00:18:40.100 We suffered a 30-year flood just recently, 00:18:40.660 --> 00:18:42.360 this past — in 2020. 00:18:43.410 --> 00:18:46.260 So, that doesn’t get to the issue of how drainage is — 00:18:46.900 --> 00:18:48.270 how people address that. 00:18:48.270 --> 00:18:50.290 And that doesn’t get to roads and bridges 00:18:50.290 --> 00:18:51.630 and all of these things, 00:18:51.630 --> 00:18:53.440 all these parts of our infrastructure 00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:55.050 that our residents rely on. 00:18:55.050 --> 00:18:58.860 So, $13 million is just insufficient to meet the need. 00:18:58.860 --> 00:19:01.570 The city of Jackson was not ill-prepared 00:19:01.570 --> 00:19:04.020 based on the winter storms; we were ill-equipped. 00:19:04.550 --> 00:19:07.820 And so, this is because resources are often stripped 00:19:07.820 --> 00:19:09.040 from the city of Jackson. 00:19:09.040 --> 00:19:12.710 Not only are we not met with a consistent plan 00:19:12.710 --> 00:19:15.210 in order to support the city 00:19:15.210 --> 00:19:17.410 that supports the state of Mississippi; 00:19:17.410 --> 00:19:20.210 we don’t enjoy the commensurate support 00:19:20.760 --> 00:19:22.460 that the city provides the state. 00:19:23.060 --> 00:19:25.960 But also, we’ve had resources stripped away from us. 00:19:26.650 --> 00:19:29.690 You referenced the conversation, or you referenced the statements 00:19:29.690 --> 00:19:32.130 of Lieutenant Governor Delbert Hosemann. 00:19:32.130 --> 00:19:34.580 As we have lifted up these issues year after year 00:19:34.580 --> 00:19:36.100 in our legislative agenda, 00:19:36.100 --> 00:19:38.110 understanding that it’s not a matter of 00:19:38.110 --> 00:19:43.130 if these infrastructure systems will fail, 00:19:43.130 --> 00:19:46.510 but when, he redirected the conversation 00:19:46.510 --> 00:19:48.620 to talk about the state’s effort 00:19:48.620 --> 00:19:51.070 to take over the city of Jackson’s airport, 00:19:51.070 --> 00:19:52.690 which is a profitable institution 00:19:52.690 --> 00:19:54.740 that we rely on year after year. 00:19:56.090 --> 00:19:57.640 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And how difficult has it been 00:19:57.640 --> 00:20:01.840 for the residents of your city to deal with the water situation 00:20:01.840 --> 00:20:05.100 while at the same time contending with the issues 00:20:05.840 --> 00:20:07.930 around the COVID pandemic? 00:20:09.590 --> 00:20:11.300 MAYOR CHOKWE ANTAR LUMUMBA: Well, as you can imagine, 00:20:11.300 --> 00:20:13.310 our residents have made every endeavor 00:20:13.310 --> 00:20:17.230 to be as patient as they could. But the frustrations are high. 00:20:17.910 --> 00:20:22.390 You know, as you can imagine, when people want to drink water, 00:20:22.390 --> 00:20:26.190 cook with water, not only bathe but get rid of waste, 00:20:26.860 --> 00:20:28.500 people being concerned about 00:20:28.500 --> 00:20:33.320 not only the safety precautions of the pandemic 00:20:33.320 --> 00:20:36.260 but also taking medications, simple things like that, 00:20:36.260 --> 00:20:40.390 that they anticipate that water will help serve 00:20:40.390 --> 00:20:44.260 the need to do those things, it has been extremely difficult. 00:20:45.110 --> 00:20:47.850 And so, you know, I do want to lift up the many people 00:20:47.850 --> 00:20:50.250 across the city, individuals, businesses, 00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:54.260 people from around the country, who have stood in the gap, 00:20:54.260 --> 00:20:57.340 rallied around the city of Jackson to distribute water. 00:20:57.340 --> 00:20:59.910 Each one of us have spent countless hours 00:20:59.910 --> 00:21:02.380 out making certain that we got water to the elderly, 00:21:02.380 --> 00:21:04.760 to the immobile, to the disabled. 00:21:05.320 --> 00:21:06.600 And so, 00:21:06.600 --> 00:21:09.760 while there has been great frustration around these issues, 00:21:09.760 --> 00:21:11.610 these are issues that the residents of Jackson 00:21:11.610 --> 00:21:13.610 have dealt with for quite some time, 00:21:13.610 --> 00:21:16.600 and so they’re very familiar, they’re intimately familiar, 00:21:16.600 --> 00:21:18.790 with the history of divestment, 00:21:18.790 --> 00:21:22.020 the history of a lack of investment from the state, 00:21:22.020 --> 00:21:23.320 very familiar 00:21:23.320 --> 00:21:26.340 with the woes and troubles of our water infrastructure 00:21:26.920 --> 00:21:29.670 and our infrastructure in a comprehensive way, as well. 00:21:30.370 --> 00:21:32.250 AMY GOODMAN: I want to go to Calandra Davis, 00:21:32.250 --> 00:21:35.680 a policy analyst at Hope Policy Institute. 00:21:35.680 --> 00:21:38.410 She has been delivering bottled water and food 00:21:38.410 --> 00:21:40.260 to those without water supply. 00:21:41.580 --> 00:21:43.970 CALANDRA DAVIS: The communities that was hardest hit 00:21:43.970 --> 00:21:47.740 by this water crisis are in South and West Jackson, 00:21:47.740 --> 00:21:50.570 which, again, are the predominantly or majority 00:21:50.570 --> 00:21:52.630 Black and Brown communities in the city. 00:21:53.390 --> 00:21:56.680 So, again, it just shows that it wasn’t just 00:21:57.310 --> 00:21:59.360 another bad weather day for us, 00:21:59.360 --> 00:22:05.410 that this has been, again, years of neglect to the majority 00:22:05.410 --> 00:22:07.110 Black and Brown parts of the city, 00:22:07.780 --> 00:22:11.950 also just another example of how structural racism works. 00:22:13.010 --> 00:22:16.120 AMY GOODMAN: So, can you explain how people are getting water? 00:22:16.120 --> 00:22:20.440 I mean, if people can’t afford to buy water, 00:22:20.440 --> 00:22:23.300 how do they get to places where water is, 00:22:23.300 --> 00:22:25.900 or have to go to pick it up? 00:22:25.900 --> 00:22:29.750 One older woman described the only thing she could get 00:22:29.750 --> 00:22:31.460 was little bottled water. 00:22:31.460 --> 00:22:33.080 This is to keep themselves clean. 00:22:33.080 --> 00:22:34.780 It’s not just for drinking. 00:22:36.280 --> 00:22:37.480 MAYOR CHOKWE ANTAR LUMUMBA: Well, you know, 00:22:37.480 --> 00:22:42.490 along with the complication of a water treatment facility 00:22:43.040 --> 00:22:45.380 essentially crashing during the storm, 00:22:45.380 --> 00:22:47.760 we also had the challenge for several days 00:22:47.760 --> 00:22:49.660 because roads were iced over 00:22:51.400 --> 00:22:55.660 and the transportation or distribution system 00:22:55.660 --> 00:23:00.140 was interrupted on our highways. And so, it became complicated 00:23:00.140 --> 00:23:02.900 because the local stores didn’t have water anymore. 00:23:02.900 --> 00:23:06.820 It became complicated because — it was increasingly challenging 00:23:07.480 --> 00:23:10.810 because trucks could not come and deliver water. 00:23:11.450 --> 00:23:13.960 But we were able to manage through that 00:23:13.960 --> 00:23:16.850 and set up distribution sites across the city. 00:23:17.930 --> 00:23:22.550 The state National Guard did set up tanks around the city 00:23:22.550 --> 00:23:24.580 for non-potable water, 00:23:24.580 --> 00:23:28.050 for people to come with containers and utilize. 00:23:28.050 --> 00:23:32.290 As I mentioned, you had several businesses, several individuals, 00:23:32.290 --> 00:23:35.810 that stood in the gap in order to support people in that way. 00:23:35.810 --> 00:23:39.970 I do want to lift up the issue that Ms. Davis spoke to: 00:23:40.840 --> 00:23:42.880 the equity issues. 00:23:43.760 --> 00:23:47.900 You know, it is not a system where you turn on water 00:23:47.900 --> 00:23:50.610 from one area of town or another area of town. 00:23:50.610 --> 00:23:53.050 The system distributes water through the lines 00:23:53.050 --> 00:23:56.550 that were laid, actually, more than a hundred years ago. 00:23:56.550 --> 00:23:58.990 The problem is an issue of equity. 00:23:58.990 --> 00:24:01.810 We just have to understand when the take took place. 00:24:01.810 --> 00:24:06.820 The take happened, or the issues of people who are in poverty 00:24:06.820 --> 00:24:10.720 or don’t have the resources not being able to get the water, 00:24:10.720 --> 00:24:15.130 is because they live in areas that were not valued as high 00:24:15.130 --> 00:24:20.790 or as more desirable by those who had money. 00:24:20.790 --> 00:24:24.460 Those who had money built homes near — closest to the resources, 00:24:24.460 --> 00:24:26.430 closer to the water treatment facilities. 00:24:26.430 --> 00:24:28.940 Therefore, when water is redistributed 00:24:29.880 --> 00:24:32.780 through the distribution system, through the lines, 00:24:32.780 --> 00:24:34.830 they are the ones who get water sooner. 00:24:35.390 --> 00:24:37.590 When you get to South and West Jackson, 00:24:37.590 --> 00:24:40.030 those are the areas furthest away from the plant. 00:24:40.030 --> 00:24:42.710 Those are the areas at higher elevations across the city, 00:24:42.710 --> 00:24:45.410 which means that the water not only has to travel far, 00:24:45.410 --> 00:24:46.630 but it has to travel high. 00:24:46.630 --> 00:24:49.870 It has to go up those high elevation points. 00:24:49.870 --> 00:24:52.320 And so, you know, we must lift up 00:24:52.320 --> 00:24:55.840 not only how we build sustainable infrastructure, 00:24:55.840 --> 00:24:57.690 but how we do it in an equitable way, 00:24:58.250 --> 00:25:01.380 looking at these issues and looking at how we address 00:25:01.380 --> 00:25:04.170 those areas through city planning. 00:25:04.170 --> 00:25:06.550 And city planning is never neutral. 00:25:06.550 --> 00:25:08.340 City planning is not by mistake. 00:25:09.030 --> 00:25:13.090 We have to be able to make sure that we do this in a way 00:25:13.090 --> 00:25:15.840 that creates dignity for all residents across our city. 00:25:17.770 --> 00:25:20.740 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Mayor, on this issue of equitable 00:25:20.740 --> 00:25:24.400 distribution of resources and services, 00:25:25.580 --> 00:25:30.750 years ago, your father pioneered the Jackson-Kush Plan, 00:25:30.750 --> 00:25:34.100 an attempt to empower African Americans 00:25:34.100 --> 00:25:39.610 in the majority area, geographical areas of the South. 00:25:39.610 --> 00:25:42.380 How do you assess the progress that’s been made, 00:25:44.230 --> 00:25:45.720 beginning with his administration, 00:25:45.720 --> 00:25:49.500 but then going through yours, in terms of spreading this idea 00:25:49.500 --> 00:25:52.770 of the equitable distribution of resources? 00:25:52.770 --> 00:25:53.970 MAYOR CHOKWE ANTAR LUMUMBA: Well, 00:25:53.970 --> 00:25:57.320 that is a movement that is ongoing. 00:25:57.320 --> 00:26:01.470 And we have many successes to point to in that regard. 00:26:01.470 --> 00:26:04.320 What our goal is, is to democratize power, 00:26:04.320 --> 00:26:07.300 understanding that issues of infrastructure, 00:26:07.880 --> 00:26:09.250 that we need to be able to connect, 00:26:09.250 --> 00:26:11.690 pothole to pothole, in community to community, 00:26:11.690 --> 00:26:13.220 so people in Jackson, Mississippi, 00:26:13.220 --> 00:26:14.910 understand why there’s a community 00:26:14.910 --> 00:26:16.950 that looks just like theirs in Jamaica, Queens, 00:26:16.950 --> 00:26:20.090 New York, in Gary, Indiana, or Detroit, Michigan. 00:26:20.610 --> 00:26:22.850 In that process of fixing that pothole, 00:26:22.850 --> 00:26:25.730 in that process of how we repair our infrastructure 00:26:25.730 --> 00:26:28.410 in terms of water, what we ultimately learn 00:26:28.410 --> 00:26:31.180 is that the pothole was never your problem in the first place. 00:26:31.180 --> 00:26:32.550 Your problem is that you don’t control 00:26:32.550 --> 00:26:33.790 the decision-making process 00:26:33.790 --> 00:26:35.800 that leads to the pothole being fixed. 00:26:35.800 --> 00:26:38.480 And so, we do that by having people’s assemblies 00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:40.730 where we engage community. 00:26:40.730 --> 00:26:42.870 We do that by participatory budgeting, 00:26:42.870 --> 00:26:46.240 understanding that the budget of the city is a moral document, 00:26:46.240 --> 00:26:48.200 and if we don’t listen to the community, 00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:50.190 listen to what the community needs and scratch 00:26:50.190 --> 00:26:51.880 where they may be itching, 00:26:51.880 --> 00:26:55.070 then it reflects what our values are as a community. 00:26:55.070 --> 00:27:00.950 We’ve done that through making sure that we extend a model 00:27:01.460 --> 00:27:04.220 which is just and transparent 00:27:04.220 --> 00:27:07.010 as we look at the issues of public safety and policing, 00:27:07.710 --> 00:27:11.650 not only making sure that we have a police ID task force 00:27:11.650 --> 00:27:13.400 populated by the community, 00:27:13.400 --> 00:27:16.980 so that they can work alongside the police department 00:27:16.980 --> 00:27:19.630 and understand how public safety must look. 00:27:19.630 --> 00:27:21.520 And so, we’ve done that in a number of ways. 00:27:21.520 --> 00:27:24.230 We’re are looking at that in terms of economic mobility 00:27:24.230 --> 00:27:26.210 and economic development in the community, 00:27:26.210 --> 00:27:28.780 understanding that we want to be a business-friendly city, 00:27:28.780 --> 00:27:30.010 but we also understand 00:27:30.010 --> 00:27:32.260 that it has to be a reciprocal relationship. 00:27:32.260 --> 00:27:34.430 And so, we lift up cooperative business models, 00:27:34.430 --> 00:27:37.510 as well, so that we can learn how we can fill the gaps. 00:27:37.510 --> 00:27:40.160 Even as we have this conversation about water 00:27:40.980 --> 00:27:44.790 and the issue of water over the last month or so, 00:27:44.790 --> 00:27:47.150 the reality is that every effort in order 00:27:47.150 --> 00:27:49.750 to support the infrastructure of the city of Jackson 00:27:49.750 --> 00:27:51.910 has been undertaken by the residents, 00:27:51.910 --> 00:27:54.150 by the people, more than the state itself. 00:27:54.890 --> 00:27:58.640 The decision to tax themselves more in order to help 00:27:58.640 --> 00:28:02.810 the infrastructure was supported over 90% by the residents. 00:28:02.810 --> 00:28:05.300 The state isn’t filling in the gap or standing in the gap 00:28:05.300 --> 00:28:07.630 when people decide to tax themselves more. 00:28:07.630 --> 00:28:10.300 Those are people taking the issue in their own hands, 00:28:10.300 --> 00:28:13.060 realizing that we are who we’ve been waiting on. 00:28:13.740 --> 00:28:15.090 And so, we should be met in that way. 00:28:15.090 --> 00:28:16.340 AMY GOODMAN: Mayor, very quickly, 00:28:16.340 --> 00:28:18.410 Mississippi has become the second state 00:28:18.410 --> 00:28:22.500 in the nation to offer vaccines to everyone above 16. 00:28:23.480 --> 00:28:27.830 At the same time, the mask mandate has been lifted. 00:28:27.830 --> 00:28:30.930 The significance of this for your city, for Jackson? 00:28:30.930 --> 00:28:32.150 MAYOR CHOKWE ANTAR LUMUMBA: Well, 00:28:32.150 --> 00:28:33.890 it’s a contradictory message, 00:28:33.890 --> 00:28:35.890 and I believe that it is dangerous. 00:28:35.890 --> 00:28:39.910 While we are happy that we can expand the opportunity 00:28:39.910 --> 00:28:41.610 for people to be vaccinated, 00:28:42.810 --> 00:28:46.040 every health professional that I have listened to, 00:28:46.690 --> 00:28:49.370 all the health professionals we listen to nationally, 00:28:49.930 --> 00:28:52.130 have indicated that it is just too soon 00:28:52.750 --> 00:28:54.860 in order to lift the mask mandate. 00:28:54.860 --> 00:28:58.190 The city of Jackson, we execute our COVID policy 00:28:58.190 --> 00:29:00.360 based on science, not politics. 00:29:01.050 --> 00:29:04.420 And so, we will maintain our mask mandate 00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:05.920 in the city of Jackson. 00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.000 However, the state’s decision to do otherwise 00:29:09.000 --> 00:29:11.530 still puts us in a compromised position, 00:29:11.530 --> 00:29:13.040 because we’re not only the capital city, 00:29:13.040 --> 00:29:14.560 we’re the capital of healthcare. 00:29:14.560 --> 00:29:17.380 What that means is, is as surrounding cities 00:29:17.380 --> 00:29:21.080 may not issue the mask mandate, when their residents, 00:29:21.080 --> 00:29:23.910 unfortunately, fall victim to the virus, 00:29:23.910 --> 00:29:26.230 they will overburden our hospitals 00:29:26.230 --> 00:29:27.600 in the city of Jackson, 00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:32.080 leaving not only our residents in greater danger, 00:29:32.080 --> 00:29:35.040 but those individuals who seek hospitalization 00:29:35.040 --> 00:29:38.570 or seek medical attention for a myriad of other issues, 00:29:39.130 --> 00:29:40.690 even outside of COVID. 00:29:40.690 --> 00:29:43.130 And so, I think that it is contradictory. 00:29:43.130 --> 00:29:44.830 I think that it is confusing. 00:29:45.630 --> 00:29:47.490 And I think that it is ill-timed. 00:29:47.490 --> 00:29:48.740 AMY GOODMAN: Chokwe Antar Lumumba, 00:29:48.740 --> 00:29:50.370 we thank you so much for being with us, 00:29:50.370 --> 00:29:53.840 mayor of Jackson, Mississippi, longtime activist. 00:29:53.840 --> 00:29:56.580 Next up, Deb Haaland is being sworn in 00:29:56.580 --> 00:29:58.040 as secretary of the interior, 00:29:58.040 --> 00:29:59.720 becoming the first Native American 00:29:59.720 --> 00:30:02.400 to serve in a U.S. presidential cabinet. 00:30:02.400 --> 00:30:04.160 We’ll look at what she faces 00:30:04.160 --> 00:30:07.990 when it comes to the legacy of uranium mines. 00:30:07.990 --> 00:30:09.690 Stay with us. 00:31:22.900 --> 00:31:24.820 AMY GOODMAN: Deb Haaland is being sworn in today 00:31:24.820 --> 00:31:26.800 as secretary of the interior. 00:31:26.800 --> 00:31:30.280 She is a tribal citizen of the Laguna Pueblo. 00:31:30.280 --> 00:31:32.440 She becomes the first Native American 00:31:32.440 --> 00:31:35.650 ever to serve in a U.S. presidential cabinet. 00:31:35.650 --> 00:31:38.400 The two-term congresswoman from New Mexico 00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:40.170 was confirmed by the Senate Monday 00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:42.370 after four Republicans joined Democrats 00:31:42.370 --> 00:31:45.270 in voting to confirm her: Susan Collins of Maine, 00:31:45.270 --> 00:31:47.130 Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, 00:31:47.130 --> 00:31:50.520 Lisa Murkowski of Alaska and Dan Sullivan of Alaska. 00:31:50.520 --> 00:31:51.860 As interior secretary, 00:31:51.860 --> 00:31:54.480 Haaland will manage 500 million acres 00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.310 of federal and tribal land. 00:31:56.310 --> 00:31:58.690 She’ll also oversee government relations 00:31:58.690 --> 00:32:02.630 with 574 federally recognized tribal nations. 00:32:02.630 --> 00:32:03.910 During her confirmation hearing, 00:32:03.910 --> 00:32:06.110 Haaland vowed to work for everyone. 00:32:07.110 --> 00:32:09.110 REP. DEB HAALAND: If confirmed, I will work my heart out 00:32:09.110 --> 00:32:12.240 for everyone — the families of fossil fuel workers 00:32:12.240 --> 00:32:15.080 who helped build our country, ranchers and farmers 00:32:15.080 --> 00:32:17.190 who care deeply for their lands, 00:32:17.190 --> 00:32:20.640 communities with legacies of toxic pollution, 00:32:20.640 --> 00:32:24.120 people of color whose stories deserve to be heard, 00:32:24.120 --> 00:32:27.060 and those who want jobs of the future. 00:32:27.060 --> 00:32:29.340 AMY GOODMAN: One major issue facing Deb Haaland 00:32:29.340 --> 00:32:32.080 as interior secretary will be addressing the legacy 00:32:32.080 --> 00:32:35.440 of uranium mining on Native land and other areas. 00:32:35.440 --> 00:32:38.620 Thousands of inactive and toxic uranium mines 00:32:38.620 --> 00:32:41.140 have poisoned Native land and water for decades, 00:32:41.140 --> 00:32:44.060 many of the mines used to extract uranium 00:32:44.060 --> 00:32:47.270 for the U.S. massive nuclear arms arsenal. 00:32:47.270 --> 00:32:50.680 In 2019, a University of New Mexico study 00:32:50.680 --> 00:32:53.090 found that about a quarter of Navajo women 00:32:53.090 --> 00:32:56.290 and some infants had high levels of the radioactive metal 00:32:56.290 --> 00:32:57.570 in their bodies, 00:32:57.570 --> 00:33:02.060 even though nearby uranium mining had ended decades ago. 00:33:02.060 --> 00:33:04.960 Last year, Congressmember Haaland was recognized 00:33:04.960 --> 00:33:08.440 with a Nuclear-Free Future Award for her efforts to address 00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:11.310 the impacts of uranium mining in the Southwest. 00:33:13.160 --> 00:33:15.180 REP. DEB HAALAND: We’ve seen it firsthand in my home state 00:33:15.180 --> 00:33:16.620 of New Mexico. 00:33:16.620 --> 00:33:19.260 Uranium mining harms the health of our population, 00:33:19.260 --> 00:33:21.450 the environment, and has hurt our economy. 00:33:22.080 --> 00:33:24.280 The U.S. government has refused to clean up 00:33:24.280 --> 00:33:26.080 the mess they’ve made in New Mexico. 00:33:26.750 --> 00:33:28.560 In 2018, when I was elected, 00:33:28.560 --> 00:33:31.540 I knew this would be an issue that I would fight for. 00:33:32.070 --> 00:33:33.530 I’ve called on the U.S. government 00:33:33.530 --> 00:33:37.080 to clean up mining sites, compensate uranium workers 00:33:37.080 --> 00:33:38.910 and rectify the wrong 00:33:38.910 --> 00:33:41.640 that has been done to Indigenous communities. 00:33:41.640 --> 00:33:43.550 And I’m not going to let up. 00:33:43.550 --> 00:33:46.510 I’m committed to fighting for a nuclear-free future. 00:33:46.510 --> 00:33:48.150 AMY GOODMAN: To talk more about Deb Haaland, 00:33:48.150 --> 00:33:50.830 the Interior Department and the legacy of uranium mining, 00:33:50.830 --> 00:33:54.000 we’re joined by Leona Morgan in Albuquerque, New Mexico, 00:33:54.000 --> 00:33:56.540 Diné/Navajo anti-nuclear activist 00:33:56.540 --> 00:33:57.740 and community organizer, 00:33:57.740 --> 00:34:00.260 coordinator with the Nuclear Issues Study Group 00:34:00.260 --> 00:34:03.290 and organizer with Haul No! 00:34:03.830 --> 00:34:06.210 We are here on Democracy Now! 00:34:06.210 --> 00:34:07.740 It’s great to have you back, Leona. 00:34:07.740 --> 00:34:09.740 We did a broadcast with you 00:34:10.430 --> 00:34:14.600 when we were visiting Los Alamos several years ago. 00:34:15.610 --> 00:34:17.330 Thanks so much for being with us. 00:34:17.330 --> 00:34:21.000 Can you start off by responding to the history 00:34:21.000 --> 00:34:23.550 that Deb Haaland is making today, 00:34:23.550 --> 00:34:26.410 and then talk about the legacy of uranium mines 00:34:26.410 --> 00:34:28.790 and what you feel she needs to do? 00:34:30.850 --> 00:34:33.550 LEONA MORGAN: Thank you, Amy. It’s so nice to be here. 00:34:33.550 --> 00:34:35.480 I appreciate the invitation. 00:34:35.480 --> 00:34:38.590 And yeah, Secretary Haaland 00:34:38.590 --> 00:34:43.180 has done a lot of good things in our state, 00:34:43.180 --> 00:34:45.600 and I think a lot of folks are satisfied 00:34:45.600 --> 00:34:48.310 with her performance as a congresswoman. 00:34:48.310 --> 00:34:50.820 However, you know, you can’t please everyone. 00:34:51.520 --> 00:34:55.440 There are some situations where we do need 00:34:55.440 --> 00:34:57.670 more attention from Secretary Haaland. 00:34:57.670 --> 00:34:59.660 She’s been excellent at dealing with 00:34:59.660 --> 00:35:01.010 some of the resource extraction, 00:35:01.010 --> 00:35:05.720 especially around Chaco Canyon, and also, like you mentioned, 00:35:05.720 --> 00:35:08.580 highlighting uranium as a core issue. 00:35:08.580 --> 00:35:10.860 And so, we are very happy. 00:35:11.400 --> 00:35:18.440 I, as an Indigenous woman, I am confident that she will do 00:35:18.440 --> 00:35:20.710 what she can as an Indigenous woman 00:35:20.710 --> 00:35:22.290 to protect our Mother Earth, 00:35:22.290 --> 00:35:25.300 but it’s impossible to expect one person 00:35:25.300 --> 00:35:31.480 to correct the centuries of racism and policy 00:35:31.480 --> 00:35:33.690 that have really devastated our people 00:35:34.270 --> 00:35:37.450 since the beginning of the Department of the Interior, 00:35:37.450 --> 00:35:40.560 including genocide and relocation. 00:35:41.090 --> 00:35:46.500 So, we do hope that she can make some historic changes, 00:35:46.500 --> 00:35:49.420 and I think lot of people are depending on her. 00:35:49.420 --> 00:35:51.540 And she will be held accountable. 00:35:53.000 --> 00:35:54.260 As for the uranium mines — 00:35:54.260 --> 00:35:55.480 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Leona Morgan, for — 00:35:55.480 --> 00:35:56.720 LEONA MORGAN: Oh, thank you. 00:35:56.720 --> 00:35:59.000 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Leona, for those listeners 00:35:59.000 --> 00:36:03.030 who are not aware of the history of this issue, 00:36:03.560 --> 00:36:07.380 could you talk somewhat — this is going back to the 1940s 00:36:07.380 --> 00:36:10.120 that the Navajo Nation was used by the United States 00:36:10.120 --> 00:36:13.770 for uranium mining for nuclear weapons development. 00:36:13.770 --> 00:36:15.340 Could you talk about that history 00:36:15.340 --> 00:36:19.650 and the impact on the Native peoples of your state? 00:36:20.700 --> 00:36:21.960 LEONA MORGAN: Yes. 00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:26.530 So, there are actually 15,000 abandoned uranium mines 00:36:26.530 --> 00:36:28.020 across the country. 00:36:28.020 --> 00:36:31.630 And the Navajo Nation is working with the federal government 00:36:31.630 --> 00:36:38.370 to address at least 523 distinct mines on Navajo Nation. 00:36:39.230 --> 00:36:42.780 The most abandoned mines are in Colorado. 00:36:42.780 --> 00:36:44.120 And so, this is an issue 00:36:44.120 --> 00:36:46.760 that doesn’t just affect Indigenous peoples, 00:36:46.760 --> 00:36:50.460 but everyone; however, uranium mining and production 00:36:50.460 --> 00:36:53.620 does impact Indigenous peoples and communities of color 00:36:53.620 --> 00:36:55.440 the most around the world. 00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:00.270 On Navajo, we have had many health issues 00:37:00.270 --> 00:37:02.920 resulting from the impacts of uranium mining, 00:37:02.920 --> 00:37:05.310 which, like you mentioned, started in the '40s. 00:37:05.310 --> 00:37:08.840 A lot of the mines on Navajo shut down in the early ’80s. 00:37:08.840 --> 00:37:11.950 There is still mining in the country; however, 00:37:11.950 --> 00:37:14.020 there's no mining in New Mexico currently. 00:37:14.020 --> 00:37:17.090 And the Navajo Nation has a law against uranium mining 00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:19.650 and the transport of radioactive materials; 00:37:19.650 --> 00:37:22.930 however, those laws are always challenged, 00:37:22.930 --> 00:37:27.420 because there are privately owned lands within the nation 00:37:27.420 --> 00:37:29.220 and adjacent to the nation. 00:37:29.220 --> 00:37:31.640 And so, it’s very difficult to stop uranium mining 00:37:31.640 --> 00:37:32.980 and the impacts, 00:37:32.980 --> 00:37:36.590 as the wind and the water carry contamination 00:37:37.730 --> 00:37:39.220 across the country without — 00:37:39.220 --> 00:37:42.940 you know, uranium does not discriminate, 00:37:42.940 --> 00:37:46.210 and, as people say, radiation does not discriminate. 00:37:46.210 --> 00:37:49.530 However, it does impact women and children the most. 00:37:49.530 --> 00:37:53.150 And with the mines shutting down in the early '80s, 00:37:53.150 --> 00:37:58.730 the cleanup that has begun in the early 2000s — 00:37:58.730 --> 00:38:02.200 let's say, 2008 was when the Navajo Nation 00:38:02.200 --> 00:38:04.980 started the first five-year cleanup plan 00:38:04.980 --> 00:38:08.150 with the U.S. agencies, working together. 00:38:08.150 --> 00:38:11.620 However, this cleanup is poorly funded, 00:38:11.620 --> 00:38:14.090 and it is not up to standards 00:38:14.090 --> 00:38:16.760 that would be acceptable in white communities. 00:38:16.760 --> 00:38:20.030 Today, we’re dealing with, like I said, 00:38:20.030 --> 00:38:24.180 523 abandoned mine sites, but a lot of the issues 00:38:24.180 --> 00:38:28.110 are the contamination to our water resources, 00:38:28.620 --> 00:38:32.020 which had implications, of course, with COVID-19. 00:38:32.020 --> 00:38:34.870 And right now this is one of the major issues, 00:38:34.870 --> 00:38:38.420 is the lack of water, the contamination of water. 00:38:38.420 --> 00:38:42.670 So, water quality and water quantity are big issues, 00:38:42.670 --> 00:38:46.100 because uranium mining was just one industry that impacted us. 00:38:46.100 --> 00:38:48.390 There was also a lot of impacts from the coal 00:38:48.390 --> 00:38:49.720 mining that occurred. 00:38:49.720 --> 00:38:52.140 And so, for the federal government 00:38:52.140 --> 00:38:53.940 to be depending on settlements 00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:57.490 from companies is just not enough. 00:38:57.490 --> 00:39:00.270 The federal government is the responsible party 00:39:00.270 --> 00:39:02.490 and needs to foot the bill for the mess 00:39:02.490 --> 00:39:05.340 that it made for its defense purposes 00:39:05.340 --> 00:39:07.760 and, you know, imperialism around the world. 00:39:08.330 --> 00:39:12.900 I work specifically on issues of nuclear colonialism, 00:39:12.900 --> 00:39:15.610 and right now we are also being targeted 00:39:16.330 --> 00:39:19.290 because of this idea that nuclear power 00:39:19.290 --> 00:39:23.360 is going to be a so-called solution to climate change. 00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:27.330 And people like Bill Gates are talking about new 00:39:27.960 --> 00:39:31.740 so-called small nuclear modular reactors, 00:39:31.740 --> 00:39:35.150 which still use uranium and still produce waste, 00:39:35.150 --> 00:39:38.180 which has — which there is no place to go. 00:39:38.950 --> 00:39:41.299 I’m sorry, the waste from nuclear power plants, 00:39:42.010 --> 00:39:45.310 there is no storage or disposal for this waste. 00:39:45.310 --> 00:39:47.370 And so, right now in New Mexico, 00:39:47.370 --> 00:39:49.220 we are being targeted with the world’s 00:39:49.220 --> 00:39:53.170 largest nuclear waste storage for waste from power plants. 00:39:53.170 --> 00:39:56.020 This is all of the power plants in the United States. 00:39:56.020 --> 00:39:58.410 And New Mexico doesn’t even have a power plant. 00:39:59.150 --> 00:40:02.250 They’re saying, you know, to bring it here temporarily, 00:40:02.250 --> 00:40:04.470 which could be more than a hundred years. 00:40:04.470 --> 00:40:07.130 And this is not a viable solution 00:40:09.420 --> 00:40:12.360 for dealing with our national nuclear waste problem. 00:40:12.360 --> 00:40:15.120 So we need to stop making new nuclear waste. 00:40:15.120 --> 00:40:18.190 We don’t need to continue mining uranium. 00:40:18.190 --> 00:40:21.620 And we need to stop using nuclear power. 00:40:21.620 --> 00:40:23.220 And so, Bill Gates is someone 00:40:23.220 --> 00:40:25.410 that’s been talking about this a lot recently, 00:40:25.410 --> 00:40:28.210 and he does not live near an abandoned uranium mine. 00:40:28.210 --> 00:40:29.960 He doesn’t live near a waste site. 00:40:29.960 --> 00:40:31.200 And so, these are issues 00:40:31.200 --> 00:40:33.370 that our people are still dealing with, 00:40:33.370 --> 00:40:36.660 over four decades after the uranium mining has stopped. 00:40:36.660 --> 00:40:38.510 We’re finally getting attention, 00:40:38.510 --> 00:40:40.960 but the cleanup that’s being proposed, 00:40:41.500 --> 00:40:43.700 like I said, it’s poor quality. 00:40:43.700 --> 00:40:46.590 One example is in Church Rock, New Mexico, 00:40:46.590 --> 00:40:49.180 the site of the world’s largest uranium spill. 00:40:49.180 --> 00:40:50.930 The proposal for cleanup there, 00:40:51.560 --> 00:40:54.200 it’s actually in an open comment period right now. 00:40:54.710 --> 00:41:00.050 There’s this idea that the company wants to scrape up mine 00:41:00.050 --> 00:41:04.090 waste at the Northeast Church Rock Mine and move it. 00:41:05.510 --> 00:41:08.640 A million cubic yards of mine waste, 00:41:08.640 --> 00:41:11.420 they want to pile on top of the mill waste, 00:41:11.420 --> 00:41:15.810 where the site — where the spill from 1979 originated. 00:41:15.810 --> 00:41:19.630 And the community is concerned because this is in a floodplain. 00:41:19.630 --> 00:41:23.150 And in the public meetings that were held in 2019, 00:41:23.150 --> 00:41:25.820 several community members expressed concern 00:41:25.820 --> 00:41:29.030 that this could result in a second Church Rock spill. 00:41:29.030 --> 00:41:32.950 But this is what they’re proposing as cleanup, 00:41:32.950 --> 00:41:34.320 which is not cleanup. 00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:38.800 It is basically making 523 permanent waste sites 00:41:38.800 --> 00:41:40.500 on Navajo Nation. 00:41:41.690 --> 00:41:43.400 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And in the context of that, 00:41:44.100 --> 00:41:45.920 your expectations in terms 00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:49.920 of what Secretary Haaland will be able to accomplish, 00:41:49.920 --> 00:41:52.660 given the fact that she is in charge of interior, 00:41:52.660 --> 00:41:57.250 but the cleanup is largely a responsibility of the EPA, 00:41:57.250 --> 00:41:58.950 isn’t it? 00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:03.900 LEONA MORGAN: Well, on Navajo, it’s five federal agencies 00:42:03.900 --> 00:42:05.880 working with Navajo Nation, 00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:09.470 and it is largely EPA Region 9 out of San Francisco. 00:42:10.360 --> 00:42:17.370 However, the EPA is putting out media 00:42:17.370 --> 00:42:20.180 that it’s — you know, recently there was an article 00:42:20.180 --> 00:42:24.090 saying they had received over $200 million for cleanup. 00:42:24.090 --> 00:42:27.290 And some of the information that’s being put out there 00:42:27.290 --> 00:42:30.740 is a little bit misleading — or a lot misleading, 00:42:30.740 --> 00:42:33.200 as according to Navajo Nation 00:42:33.200 --> 00:42:35.450 EPA Superfund director Dariel Yazzie. 00:42:37.110 --> 00:42:38.680 I had a long conversation with him 00:42:38.680 --> 00:42:41.370 about some of the cleanup and the proposals. 00:42:41.370 --> 00:42:45.540 And what he’s saying is that Navajo has a very limited seat 00:42:45.540 --> 00:42:48.490 at the table when it comes to making decisions 00:42:48.490 --> 00:42:51.630 and enforcing our Navajo policy, 00:42:51.630 --> 00:42:54.620 as well as stronger cleanup standards. 00:42:54.620 --> 00:42:57.570 And so, we need Secretary Haaland 00:42:57.570 --> 00:43:02.380 to help to curb the startup of new mines 00:43:02.380 --> 00:43:06.620 and then also to work with the agencies. 00:43:06.620 --> 00:43:08.400 There’s five federal agencies 00:43:08.400 --> 00:43:11.070 and the Navajo Nation doing this cleanup. 00:43:11.070 --> 00:43:15.350 But, like I said, that’s only 523 abandoned mine sites, 00:43:15.350 --> 00:43:18.900 whereas there’s over 15,000 in the whole country. 00:43:18.900 --> 00:43:21.880 And so, we really need federal dollars 00:43:21.880 --> 00:43:23.970 and better cleanup standards. 00:43:23.970 --> 00:43:27.650 Right now there’s a 10-year plan that’s being proposed, 00:43:27.650 --> 00:43:30.420 and some of the standards 00:43:30.420 --> 00:43:33.100 for the allowable levels of radiation 00:43:33.100 --> 00:43:35.850 are much higher than would be acceptable in, 00:43:35.850 --> 00:43:39.220 let’s say, an urban environment or in a white community. 00:43:39.220 --> 00:43:43.300 And this is really going to impact our people, 00:43:43.300 --> 00:43:47.900 you know, as uranium and radiation cause health impacts. 00:43:48.640 --> 00:43:51.660 It takes a long time for these health impacts to show up. 00:43:51.660 --> 00:43:54.540 And so, right now we are experiencing 00:43:54.540 --> 00:43:56.900 a lot of the residual effects. 00:43:57.830 --> 00:44:01.300 One health study, called the Navajo Birth Cohort Study, 00:44:01.300 --> 00:44:07.110 has found high levels of uranium in newborn babies. 00:44:07.110 --> 00:44:09.910 And these are babies that are born across the reservation, 00:44:09.910 --> 00:44:12.390 not just near abandoned uranium sites. 00:44:12.390 --> 00:44:14.380 And so, we do need Secretary Haaland 00:44:14.380 --> 00:44:17.180 to push for comprehensive cleanup, 00:44:17.180 --> 00:44:19.710 as well as comprehensive health studies. 00:44:19.710 --> 00:44:23.080 And this is, specifically, I’m talking about Navajo Nation, 00:44:23.080 --> 00:44:24.730 but across the country, 00:44:24.730 --> 00:44:27.740 as well as protections for our sacred places, 00:44:27.740 --> 00:44:30.690 because a lot of our sacred places have been mined 00:44:30.690 --> 00:44:32.770 and are targeted for new mining. 00:44:32.770 --> 00:44:34.870 AMY GOODMAN: Leona Morgan, we’re going to continue to cover 00:44:34.870 --> 00:44:37.690 these issues in the months to come. 00:44:37.690 --> 00:44:41.250 Leona Morgan is a Diné/Navajo anti-nuclear activist 00:44:41.250 --> 00:44:42.890 and community organizer, 00:44:42.890 --> 00:44:45.400 coordinator with the Nuclear Issues Study Group 00:44:45.400 --> 00:44:47.470 and an organizer with Haul No! 00:44:48.010 --> 00:44:51.100 When we come back, a remarkable new podcast called 00:44:51.100 --> 00:44:55.700 Suave about a man sentenced to life in prison as a juvenile, 00:44:55.700 --> 00:44:57.980 and a journalist, Maria Hinojosa, 00:44:57.980 --> 00:45:00.330 who befriended him and chronicled his story, 00:45:00.330 --> 00:45:02.320 all the way to unexpected freedom. 00:45:02.320 --> 00:45:04.020 Back in 30 seconds. 00:45:39.870 --> 00:45:41.200 AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now! 00:45:41.200 --> 00:45:42.710 I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. 00:45:42.710 --> 00:45:44.270 We end today’s show with two people 00:45:44.270 --> 00:45:47.010 who met almost 30 years ago. 00:45:47.010 --> 00:45:51.480 It was 1993 when the acclaimed journalist Maria Hinojosa 00:45:51.480 --> 00:45:56.020 met David Luis "Suave" Gonzalez while she was giving a talk 00:45:56.020 --> 00:45:58.500 at the Graterford State Correctional Institution 00:45:58.500 --> 00:45:59.700 in Pennsylvania. 00:45:59.700 --> 00:46:03.430 Suave was there serving a life sentence without parole, 00:46:03.430 --> 00:46:06.320 after he was convicted of first-degree homicide 00:46:06.320 --> 00:46:08.120 when he was 17 years old. 00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:11.540 At the prison, he was part of the largest population 00:46:11.540 --> 00:46:15.580 of so-called juvenile lifers in the United States. 00:46:15.580 --> 00:46:19.770 Suave and Hinojosa stayed in touch through letters and visits 00:46:19.770 --> 00:46:22.050 and phone calls that she recorded. 00:46:22.050 --> 00:46:25.520 Those calls are now part of a new seven-part podcast series 00:46:25.520 --> 00:46:28.040 called Suave, that chronicles his story 00:46:28.040 --> 00:46:29.830 all the way to unexpected freedom. 00:46:29.830 --> 00:46:34.100 It includes dramatic exchanges like this one from 2016, 00:46:34.100 --> 00:46:37.420 when the Supreme Court ruled it’s unconstitutional 00:46:37.420 --> 00:46:39.680 to impose mandatory sentences of life 00:46:39.680 --> 00:46:41.470 without parole on juveniles. 00:46:41.470 --> 00:46:44.600 The ruling was retroactive and gave thousands of people, 00:46:44.600 --> 00:46:47.070 including Suave, a chance at freedom. 00:46:47.070 --> 00:46:49.210 This is a clip of the call, 00:46:49.210 --> 00:46:51.440 his call to announce the good news to Maria. 00:46:52.640 --> 00:46:54.800 RECORDING: Thank you for using Securus. 00:46:54.800 --> 00:46:56.710 You may start the conversation now. 00:46:56.710 --> 00:46:57.920 MARIA HINOJOSA: Hello? Hello? 00:46:57.920 --> 00:46:59.200 DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ: Hello, Maria. 00:46:59.200 --> 00:47:00.400 How are you doing this morning? 00:47:00.400 --> 00:47:02.380 MARIA HINOJOSA: Suave, it is Friday, June 9th, 00:47:02.380 --> 00:47:04.080 at 10:44 in the morning. 00:47:04.910 --> 00:47:07.040 What’s going on? I thought we were talking at 2:00. 00:47:07.040 --> 00:47:08.370 What happened? 00:47:08.370 --> 00:47:09.610 DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ: I wanted to let you know 00:47:09.610 --> 00:47:11.290 that the judge told the lawyer 00:47:11.290 --> 00:47:13.540 this morning we don’t have to wait no longer. 00:47:14.950 --> 00:47:19.110 June 26, 17 days from today, we bring it in to court, 00:47:19.950 --> 00:47:21.700 so he could go seek parole in July. 00:47:23.960 --> 00:47:25.660 MARIA HINOJOSA: What? 00:47:26.720 --> 00:47:30.330 So, it’s like — it’s like totally not a normal day 00:47:30.330 --> 00:47:33.480 for you in prison after 30 years. Today is — 00:47:33.480 --> 00:47:34.710 DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ: No. 00:47:34.710 --> 00:47:39.660 And last night — you wouldn’t even imagine — 00:47:39.660 --> 00:47:42.650 I had a dream, like, that I was eating Chinese food. 00:47:43.290 --> 00:47:45.030 MARIA HINOJOSA: What? What were you eating? 00:47:45.030 --> 00:47:46.330 DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ: Eggrolls 00:47:46.330 --> 00:47:48.030 and some pork fried rice. 00:47:48.750 --> 00:47:52.010 And then I woke up, and I went to the head. 00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.190 AMY GOODMAN: That’s a clip from the podcast Suave. 00:47:55.190 --> 00:47:58.100 Episode three just came out Tuesday, continues to follow 00:47:58.100 --> 00:48:00.340 Suave’s journey as he eventually 00:48:00.340 --> 00:48:02.690 was given the opportunity to experience life 00:48:02.690 --> 00:48:05.270 on the outside as an adult for the first time. 00:48:05.270 --> 00:48:08.620 Suave is now in his fifties, living in the free world 00:48:08.620 --> 00:48:10.570 as an artist and activist, 00:48:10.570 --> 00:48:13.640 joining us now, for more, along with Maria Hinojosa, 00:48:13.640 --> 00:48:16.520 president and founder of the Futuro Media Group 00:48:16.520 --> 00:48:18.250 and the anchor and executive producer of the 00:48:18.250 --> 00:48:20.980 Peabody Award-winning show Latino USA. 00:48:20.980 --> 00:48:23.279 She’s executive producer of the podcast Suave. 00:48:23.860 --> 00:48:25.420 We welcome you both to Democracy Now! 00:48:25.420 --> 00:48:27.550 Suave, if you could briefly — 00:48:28.230 --> 00:48:30.480 I mean, your story is an unbelievable one. 00:48:30.480 --> 00:48:33.730 But the significance of going to prison in the '80s? 00:48:33.730 --> 00:48:36.390 You lived in the Bronx, moved to Philadelphia. 00:48:36.390 --> 00:48:37.710 You were convicted, 00:48:37.710 --> 00:48:40.600 thought you'd be life in prison without parole. 00:48:40.600 --> 00:48:42.699 Then the Supreme Court made this decision. 00:48:46.030 --> 00:48:47.690 DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ: Yes. 00:48:47.690 --> 00:48:49.070 Thank you for having me on. 00:48:49.070 --> 00:48:52.680 And it was an experience that I will never forget 00:48:52.680 --> 00:48:56.750 and don’t wish on no juvenile in the United States. 00:48:56.750 --> 00:49:00.320 It was an experience that left me traumatized to this day. 00:49:01.220 --> 00:49:06.940 And I’m just grateful that I was able to meet Maria in 1993 00:49:07.720 --> 00:49:10.350 and was able to make that transformation from prison 00:49:10.860 --> 00:49:15.430 into a decent human being, because at the time, in 1993, 00:49:15.430 --> 00:49:17.870 I was on a suicide mission. I wanted to die. 00:49:18.450 --> 00:49:20.550 I didn’t know how I was going to get out of jail. 00:49:20.550 --> 00:49:23.130 All I knew is that I was sentenced to life 00:49:23.130 --> 00:49:24.750 in the state of Pennsylvania, 00:49:24.750 --> 00:49:28.390 which housed more juvenile lifers than any other state 00:49:29.030 --> 00:49:31.450 in the country. And I was stuck. 00:49:31.960 --> 00:49:34.860 And here comes a stranger telling me 00:49:34.860 --> 00:49:37.060 that I could be the voice for the voiceless. 00:49:39.770 --> 00:49:41.180 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Suave, could you talk about 00:49:41.180 --> 00:49:44.660 that first time you met Maria Hinojosa 00:49:44.660 --> 00:49:48.060 and the relationship as it developed over the years, 00:49:48.060 --> 00:49:49.530 from your perspective? 00:49:49.530 --> 00:49:50.770 DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ: Yes, 00:49:50.770 --> 00:49:52.920 I met Maria Hinojosa in 1993. 00:49:53.910 --> 00:49:56.260 I was just coming out of solitary confinement, 00:49:56.920 --> 00:50:01.680 and a older gentleman gave me a radio that had three stations. 00:50:02.530 --> 00:50:04.490 And one of the stations, Maria was on. 00:50:04.490 --> 00:50:07.520 So I heard it, and I was impressed just to hear 00:50:07.520 --> 00:50:11.410 a Latina voice on the radio. So, I just told everybody, 00:50:11.410 --> 00:50:14.550 "We’ve got to get her up here to the prison to speak to the guys. 00:50:14.550 --> 00:50:16.040 We’ve got to get her up here." 00:50:16.040 --> 00:50:19.410 So, one of my friends was the institutional tutor, 00:50:19.410 --> 00:50:23.260 and he graduated at Yale, like 27 guys with GED. 00:50:23.260 --> 00:50:26.760 So, he was given the opportunity to bring a guest speaker. 00:50:26.760 --> 00:50:28.990 And I begged him, "Bring Maria up here. 00:50:28.990 --> 00:50:30.380 Bring Maria." 00:50:30.380 --> 00:50:32.790 And somehow they got Maria up there. 00:50:32.790 --> 00:50:35.450 And they told me I couldn’t get into the graduation, 00:50:35.450 --> 00:50:38.410 because I wasn’t graduating. So, I was fine with that, 00:50:38.410 --> 00:50:40.780 because I was doing time in a corrupt jail. 00:50:40.780 --> 00:50:44.580 There was no way I was not going to get into that graduation 00:50:44.580 --> 00:50:45.870 and meet Maria. 00:50:45.870 --> 00:50:49.360 So, I got in, and Maria spoke. And when she took the podium, 00:50:49.360 --> 00:50:51.730 I just felt that every word that she was — 00:50:52.750 --> 00:50:54.300 every word that was coming out her mouth, 00:50:54.300 --> 00:50:56.740 I felt like she was talking directly to me. 00:50:56.740 --> 00:50:58.620 And even though it was an auditorium filled 00:50:58.620 --> 00:51:00.020 with people graduating, 00:51:00.020 --> 00:51:02.670 I just felt like her message was for me. 00:51:02.670 --> 00:51:04.370 So, when she was done speaking, 00:51:05.510 --> 00:51:07.460 I went up to her, and I told her, 00:51:07.460 --> 00:51:09.900 "I’m serving life. What can I do?" 00:51:10.650 --> 00:51:14.070 And Maria just looked at me and said, 00:51:14.070 --> 00:51:15.460 "You could be my source. 00:51:15.460 --> 00:51:17.559 You could be the voice for the voiceless." 00:51:18.100 --> 00:51:20.330 And those simple words changed my life: 00:51:21.230 --> 00:51:22.520 "the voice for the voiceless." 00:51:22.520 --> 00:51:25.280 And at the moment, I didn’t understand what it meant, 00:51:26.010 --> 00:51:28.660 but then it dawned on me, like, all my life 00:51:28.660 --> 00:51:30.570 I’ve been told I was mentally retarded, 00:51:30.570 --> 00:51:34.560 I had an IQ of 56, that I would never amount to nothing. 00:51:34.560 --> 00:51:38.330 And here is a stranger telling me, a lifer, 00:51:38.880 --> 00:51:41.090 that I could be the voice for the voiceless. 00:51:41.090 --> 00:51:45.590 I was lit. I was like excited just to have somebody tell me 00:51:45.590 --> 00:51:48.190 that I could be something, that I could be somebody. 00:51:49.480 --> 00:51:51.180 And that’s what changed my life. 00:51:53.940 --> 00:51:56.410 AMY GOODMAN: Maria, if you could talk about your experience 00:51:56.410 --> 00:51:57.720 of first meeting 00:51:57.720 --> 00:52:01.560 Suave and the relationship that you and 00:52:01.560 --> 00:52:04.360 Suave had over not the months, 00:52:04.360 --> 00:52:07.520 not the years, the decades, and what it meant to you 00:52:07.520 --> 00:52:11.280 when you got that call that this young man, 00:52:11.280 --> 00:52:14.480 who you expected to live for the rest of his life in prison, 00:52:14.480 --> 00:52:18.330 who was your source, was now going to be free? 00:52:18.330 --> 00:52:19.680 MARIA HINOJOSA: All right, well, listen, 00:52:19.680 --> 00:52:22.340 I just got to put some credit where credit is due. 00:52:22.340 --> 00:52:23.980 I learned from the best. 00:52:23.980 --> 00:52:26.990 I was watching people like Juan González. 00:52:27.530 --> 00:52:29.640 I was reading Juan. 00:52:29.640 --> 00:52:31.940 I was watching and listening to you, Amy. 00:52:32.540 --> 00:52:34.450 You were my boss, remember, way back when, 00:52:34.450 --> 00:52:38.090 when I was a budding journalist at WBAI. 00:52:39.070 --> 00:52:41.960 And one of the things that I learned from you 00:52:41.960 --> 00:52:44.660 and the great journalists in our tradition — 00:52:44.660 --> 00:52:47.970 Frederick Douglass, Ida B. Wells, Rubén Salazar — 00:52:47.970 --> 00:52:50.720 is that you also can lead with your heart. 00:52:50.720 --> 00:52:53.330 You can be the most critical journalist possible, 00:52:54.260 --> 00:52:56.240 but you can also lead with your heart. 00:52:56.790 --> 00:52:58.890 So, Suave likes to give me a lot of credit 00:52:58.890 --> 00:53:00.110 for the words that I said. 00:53:00.110 --> 00:53:02.420 You know, "Hey, you’re going to be inside here. 00:53:02.420 --> 00:53:03.800 Just tell me what’s happening 00:53:03.800 --> 00:53:05.800 inside a maximum-security men’s prison." 00:53:06.830 --> 00:53:10.100 But the point is, is that he was the one who walked up to me. 00:53:10.610 --> 00:53:13.600 He was the one who asked the question, "What can I do?" 00:53:13.600 --> 00:53:15.140 He didn’t say to me, "Do something for me. 00:53:15.140 --> 00:53:16.410 Get me out of here. 00:53:16.410 --> 00:53:18.570 Here’s my case. Let’s talk about it," 00:53:18.570 --> 00:53:20.320 which a lot of the other guys did. 00:53:20.320 --> 00:53:22.380 Suave said, "What can I do?" 00:53:22.380 --> 00:53:24.720 And, you know, I didn’t know Suave. 00:53:24.720 --> 00:53:26.360 I didn’t know that he was illiterate. 00:53:26.360 --> 00:53:29.409 I didn’t know that he had been accused of committing a murder 00:53:29.930 --> 00:53:32.490 against another juvenile. I didn’t know that. 00:53:32.490 --> 00:53:35.760 I saw that there was something in him that had a question. 00:53:35.760 --> 00:53:38.800 And as a journalist, if you are aware 00:53:38.800 --> 00:53:40.070 and you are sensitive 00:53:40.070 --> 00:53:42.240 and you are working with your five senses, 00:53:42.240 --> 00:53:45.190 and sometimes your sixth, you have to pick up on that. 00:53:45.770 --> 00:53:49.230 Now, look, I’m a Christmas card lady. 00:53:49.760 --> 00:53:51.860 I should be sending you and Juan Christmas cards, 00:53:51.860 --> 00:53:53.340 but I just never got your addresses. 00:53:53.340 --> 00:53:56.910 But I knew where Suave was going to be for the rest of his life, 00:53:56.910 --> 00:53:58.920 and I started sending him Christmas cards, 00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:03.360 because I wanted — I don’t know, that’s a human thing to do. 00:54:04.030 --> 00:54:06.620 And from there, we just — I mean, I never imagined 00:54:06.620 --> 00:54:07.950 that it would end up being a podcast 00:54:07.950 --> 00:54:10.570 that is getting this amount of attention and so much love 00:54:10.570 --> 00:54:14.020 and raising critical issues around justice 00:54:14.740 --> 00:54:18.330 for young people in our country. And so, I’m so thankful, Amy. 00:54:18.330 --> 00:54:21.020 And I know that this is a dream come true for Suave 00:54:21.020 --> 00:54:23.060 to be with you and Juan right now. 00:54:23.060 --> 00:54:26.109 And so, you’re helping to make his dreams come true, as well. 00:54:27.380 --> 00:54:31.310 JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Maria, the thought process that made 00:54:31.310 --> 00:54:36.100 you decide to do a podcast once he was out, 00:54:36.100 --> 00:54:42.920 in terms of what the importance of this kind of journalism is, 00:54:42.920 --> 00:54:45.580 in terms especially with the national debate 00:54:45.580 --> 00:54:49.650 going on continually now about criminal justice reform? 00:54:49.650 --> 00:54:50.870 MARIA HINOJOSA: Right. 00:54:50.870 --> 00:54:52.970 So, look, you know, people talk about numbers, 00:54:52.970 --> 00:54:54.350 and they talk about institutions. 00:54:54.350 --> 00:54:56.010 But until you actually meet someone 00:54:56.010 --> 00:54:57.230 who has been in this — I mean, 00:54:57.230 --> 00:54:59.410 Suave was in solitary confinement 00:54:59.410 --> 00:55:02.400 not for days or weeks or months, but for years. 00:55:02.400 --> 00:55:04.150 What does that do to a human being? 00:55:04.860 --> 00:55:07.790 Look, I just had a little recorder, Juan. 00:55:07.790 --> 00:55:10.580 And when I realized that the Supreme Court 00:55:10.580 --> 00:55:13.600 was going to be addressing the question 00:55:13.600 --> 00:55:18.400 of whether or not it was inhuman to sentence a juvenile 00:55:18.400 --> 00:55:20.100 to life without parole, 00:55:20.820 --> 00:55:23.950 I just started recording every single call that 00:55:23.950 --> 00:55:26.000 Suave made. I went back, and I reported. 00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:27.799 I had visited him a couple of times. 00:55:28.690 --> 00:55:30.840 But I just said, "Something can happen here." 00:55:30.840 --> 00:55:33.810 And, look, this is a message to fellow journalists out there. 00:55:33.810 --> 00:55:36.300 You need to hold onto your stories. 00:55:36.300 --> 00:55:40.220 You need to learn from the Juans and the Amys 00:55:40.220 --> 00:55:42.600 and, in this case, the Marias of the world, 00:55:42.600 --> 00:55:44.980 who are journalists of conscience 00:55:44.980 --> 00:55:46.210 in the United States. 00:55:46.210 --> 00:55:50.290 And we understand that there is not just a human story, 00:55:50.290 --> 00:55:51.730 but there is a story that we can, 00:55:51.730 --> 00:55:53.510 with one human story, 00:55:53.510 --> 00:55:56.310 really uncover all of this injustice. 00:55:56.310 --> 00:55:58.820 And so, I never imagined, Juan, 00:55:58.820 --> 00:56:01.100 that it would be a podcast like this. 00:56:01.100 --> 00:56:06.240 But you start recording, and that’s where you capture 00:56:06.240 --> 00:56:08.120 the most dramatic moments, because, you know, 00:56:08.120 --> 00:56:11.220 Suave and I were just very real with each other over decades. 00:56:11.220 --> 00:56:14.560 AMY GOODMAN: Suave, can you talk about the most 00:56:14.560 --> 00:56:18.970 difficult obstacles you face coming out of prison, 00:56:20.010 --> 00:56:22.640 and also the high points for you? 00:56:23.450 --> 00:56:24.680 DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ: I mean, 00:56:24.680 --> 00:56:27.860 the most difficult things facing when you come out of prison 00:56:27.860 --> 00:56:31.560 is dealing with housing, employment. 00:56:32.300 --> 00:56:35.660 You know, even though I came out of prison with an education, 00:56:35.660 --> 00:56:38.690 with a BA from Villanova University, 00:56:39.400 --> 00:56:44.430 it’s still hard, to this day, to find sustainable employment, 00:56:44.430 --> 00:56:47.110 because I’m in a city, in Philadelphia, 00:56:47.110 --> 00:56:49.130 where they got Ban the Box, 00:56:49.130 --> 00:56:51.470 but when you get to the next level of that interview 00:56:51.470 --> 00:56:53.120 and employment, it’s always, 00:56:53.120 --> 00:56:56.200 "Well, you had a record from 34 or 35 years ago." 00:56:56.840 --> 00:56:58.639 So, that’s the most difficult thing. 00:56:59.140 --> 00:57:03.820 And being on lifetime parole is difficult, 00:57:03.820 --> 00:57:06.830 because, on one hand, you know, 00:57:06.830 --> 00:57:11.860 yes, I’m out in the community, but I’m still tied to the DOC. 00:57:11.860 --> 00:57:14.220 I’m still tied to the Department of Corrections, 00:57:14.220 --> 00:57:15.700 where they monitor all of my moves. 00:57:15.700 --> 00:57:18.580 I have to ask permission to cross city lines. 00:57:18.580 --> 00:57:21.450 I have to ask permission to be on your show. 00:57:21.450 --> 00:57:24.830 I have to ask permission to do certain things. 00:57:24.830 --> 00:57:28.130 You know, so, the question is: Is I’m really free? 00:57:28.130 --> 00:57:30.290 The United States Supreme Court ruled 00:57:30.290 --> 00:57:34.120 that it was unconstitutional to sentence a juvenile 00:57:34.120 --> 00:57:37.450 to a mandatory life sentence. Shouldn’t it be unconstitutional 00:57:37.450 --> 00:57:39.749 to have that same juvenile on lifetime parole? 00:57:40.810 --> 00:57:44.230 You know, I think those issues still need to be addressed, 00:57:44.230 --> 00:57:46.570 and they’re not being addressed in the United States. 00:57:46.570 --> 00:57:51.390 We still have tons of juveniles in the penal system 00:57:51.390 --> 00:57:54.830 that needs to have the same opportunities that I’m having. 00:57:54.830 --> 00:57:59.170 And the high point for me is that I’m able to tell my story 00:57:59.740 --> 00:58:02.540 and share the stories of other juvenile lifers 00:58:03.220 --> 00:58:05.450 that were left behind, because I still feel, 00:58:05.450 --> 00:58:07.880 when I left in 2017, 00:58:07.880 --> 00:58:09.700 that I was leaving the only family 00:58:09.700 --> 00:58:11.930 that I knew for 30-something years. 00:58:12.600 --> 00:58:14.480 You know, and it gets lonely out here. 00:58:14.480 --> 00:58:17.340 It gets real lonely. It gets depressing. 00:58:18.410 --> 00:58:21.080 And if we don’t have that support team 00:58:21.730 --> 00:58:23.790 to help us get through that day, 00:58:24.460 --> 00:58:28.490 you know, that’s when we see the recidivism rate go up, 00:58:28.490 --> 00:58:31.320 because, I’m telling you from personal experience, 00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:34.390 there’s been days when I wish I was back. 00:58:36.730 --> 00:58:39.000 AMY GOODMAN: Well, we need to a Part 2, leaving it there. 00:58:39.000 --> 00:58:40.850 Luis David "Suave" Gonzalez, 00:58:41.630 --> 00:58:43.060 thanks so much for being with us, 00:58:43.060 --> 00:58:47.700 subject of the new podcast Suave by Futuro Media and PRX. 00:58:47.700 --> 00:58:50.140 And thanks so much, Maria, Maria Hinojosa, 00:58:50.140 --> 00:58:51.570 executive producer of Suave 00:58:51.570 --> 00:58:52.930 and anchor and executive producer 00:58:52.930 --> 00:58:56.600 of the Peabody Award-winning show Latino USA. 00:58:56.600 --> 00:58:58.710 That does it for our show. Happy Birthday, Julia Thomas! 00:58:58.710 --> 00:59:00.509 I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.