WEBVTT

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From New York,
this is Democracy Now!

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The West needs to go
clearly above —

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I’d say more than double —

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the commitments
that were already made

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in relation to climate finance
by the present administration.

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Climate justice is on the agenda
as world leaders

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gathered in the U.K.

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for the first-time in-person G7
summit in two years.

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We’ll speak to Asad Rehman
with War on Want,

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spokesperson for the COP26
Climate Coalition,

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calling for more
immediate action.

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Then, the Biden administration
continues to call

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for the extradition of

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WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange
from Britain

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to the United States,

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where he faces up
to 175 years in prison.

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We’ll speak with Assange’s
father and half-brother,

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who are on a tour
of the United States

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to advocate for his release.

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Julian is being — has been
prosecuted for work

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that stops wars,
you know,

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work that has won him journalism
awards all over the planet,

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you know, the Iraq
and Afghanistan war logs,

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Guantánamo Bay
detainee records,

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work that exposes
horrific war crimes

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and systematic abuse of power.

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And we look at how
another G7 country, Germany,

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recently apologized for its role

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in the first genocide
of the 20th century

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in its former colony known
as German South West Africa,

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now the country of Namibia.
Descendants of those killed

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say Germany’s offer
of development aid

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is a pittance and are calling
on the government to reject it.

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Since this reparations amount
was made public,

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concerns have been raised
that this amount is not enough

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and that it is unacceptable
to the affected communities

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and the Namibian people.

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All that and more, coming up.

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Welcome to Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

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The Quarantine Report.
I’m Amy Goodman.

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President Biden and other
leaders of the G7 nations

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are pledging to donate a billion
doses of COVID vaccines

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to poorer countries
as part of an effort

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to end the pandemic
by the end of 2022.

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The World Health Organization
estimates 11 billion doses

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are needed in order to vaccinate
70% of the world’s population.

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The Group of 7 is holding
its first in-person meeting

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in two years
in Cornwall, England.

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On Thursday, President Biden
formally announced

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the United States
would do its part

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by buying half a billion doses
from Pfizer to send abroad.

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President Joe Biden:

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"Our vaccine donations
don’t include pressure

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for favors
or potential concessions.

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We’re doing this to save lives,
to end this pandemic.

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That’s it, period."

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While Biden said there are
no strings

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attached to
the vaccine donations,

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none of the doses
will be going to Venezuela,

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which is under
U.S. sanctions.

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Venezuela’s foreign minister,
Jorge Arreaza,

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said the decision
demonstrates Washington’s

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"continued hatred towards
the Venezuelan people."

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On Thursday, the Venezuelan
government revealed it

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has been unable
to receive vaccines

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through the COVAX program

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because some of its financial
payments have been blocked

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due to the U.S. sanctions.

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The New York Times is reporting
the Trump administration

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secretly subpoenaed and seized
data of two prominent Democrats

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on the House
Intelligence Committee —

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Adam Schiff
and Eric Swalwell —

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as well as their staff
aides and family members,

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including a minor.

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Schiff described the move
as a "terrible abuse of power."

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The Justice Department forced
Apple to hand over the records

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and then placed a gag
order on the company

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preventing it from informing
the lawmakers until last month.

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The Trump administration also
seized records from reporters

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at The Washington Post,
New York Times and CNN

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as part of a sweeping probe
into government leaks.

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On Capitol Hill, a bipartisan
group of 10 senators

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said Thursday
they have reached a deal

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on a $1.2 trillion
infrastructure package,

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but many Democrats have
criticized the proposal

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for not doing enough
to address the climate crisis.

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Senator Ed Markey
of Massachusetts

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appeared on MSNBC
Thursday night.

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Sen. Ed Markey:

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"It sounds like, to me,
that they have a package,

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which is climate denial
masquerading as bipartisanship.

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We can’t have
an infrastructure bill in 2021

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that doesn’t have climate
at its center."

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The United Nations
and international aid groups

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warn that Ethiopians
in the war-ravaged Tigray region

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are facing the world’s
worst famine in a decade,

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with 350,000 people
facing catastrophic conditions

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and millions more suffering
from acute food shortages.

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The United Nations is
urging the Ethiopian government

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to allow more humanitarian
aid into Tigray,

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which the Ethiopian
military invaded last year

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with support from Eritrea.

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In Peru, Pedro Castillo
is closing in

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on becoming Peru’s
next president.

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With almost all votes counted,
the socialist teacher

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has a 71,000-vote
lead over Keiko Fujimori,

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the daughter of Peru’s
imprisoned former dictator.

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But Fujimori is seeking
the annulment of 500,000 votes

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despite offering no evidence
of voter fraud.

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This comes as Fujimori
is fighting to stay out of jail.

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A state prosecutor
has urged a judge

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to send her back
to prison in connection

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with an ongoing corruption case.
On Thursday, Pedro Castillo,

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the presidential front-runner,
spoke to supporters in Lima.

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Pedro Castillo:
"Just as the people are with me,

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I must always be
with the people.

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I will never take advantage
of a democratic space

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to clean my debts,
to clean my crimes.

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We cannot do that.
We cannot play with democracy.

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Above all, there is
the dignity of a people,

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and there are
the generations to come.

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There is the dignity
of these people

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who have long clamored
for their rights."

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In the occupied West Bank,

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Israeli forces killed
three Palestinians

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during a predawn
undercover raid on Wednesday.

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The Israelis were dressed
to look like Palestinians.

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The dead included two
military intelligence officers

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with the
Palestinian Authority.

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Palestinian President
Mahmoud Abbas

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condemned what he called a
"dangerous Israeli escalation."

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Israeli forces also raided
the headquarters

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of the Palestinian Union

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of Health Workers Committee
on Wednesday

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and ordered
the group’s Ramallah office

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to remain closed
for six months.

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Amnesty International
warned Israel’s action

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could have
"catastrophic consequences"

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for Palestinians
needing healthcare.

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The Israeli newspaper
Haaretz has published

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shocking video of Israeli
prison guards brutally kicking,

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punching and beating shackled

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Palestinians inside a prison
in the Negev Desert in 2019.

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The video shows guards
throwing dozens of men

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into a large pile
on a concrete floor;

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15 were later hospitalized.
The Israeli human rights group

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B’Tselem said today,
"The case proves, yet again,

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that Palestinian victims
of violence by Israeli

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security forces
cannot achieve justice

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via Israeli systems
and can hope to do

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so only in
an international court."

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No Israeli guards
faced charges over the assault.

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The warden on duty
was later promoted.

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Amnesty International
has accused

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China of committing crimes
against humanity

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for its mass imprisonment
and torture of Uyghurs

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and other Muslims
in Xinjiang province.

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Amnesty International Secretary
General Agnès Callamard said,

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"The Chinese authorities
have created

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a dystopian hellscape
on a staggering scale."

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China has long defended
its policies in Xinjiang,

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saying they are needed
to combat extremism.

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Lawmakers in Oregon
have voted to expel

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Republican state
Representative Mike Nearman

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after video surfaced showing him
literally opening the door

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to let armed
right-wing protesters

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enter the state
Capitol in December

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at a time when the building
was closed to the public.

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Days before the incident,
Nearmen spoke on a live stream

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where he gave out
his phone number

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and explained how he could
help them get inside.

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Rep. Mike Nearman:

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"If you say,
’I’m at the west entrance,’

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during the session and text
to that number there,

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that somebody might exit
that door

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while you’re standing there."

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The breach of the Oregon Capitol
occurred about two weeks

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before the January
6 insurrection

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at the U.S. Capitol.

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Meanwhile, six California men,
including a former police chief,

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have been indicted
on federal conspiracy charges

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for their role in the January
6 insurrection in Washington.

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Several of the men
are connected

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to the far-right
Three Percenters movement.

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In North Carolina, a state
autopsy confirms

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Andrew Brown Jr.,

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a Black man who was shot
by sheriff’s deputies in April,

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died of a gunshot wound
to the back of his head.

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The report lists Brown’s cause
of death as "homicide"

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and matches the results of
an earlier independent autopsy

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and what Brown’s family says
they witnessed in bodycam video.

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A North Carolina prosecutor
concluded last month

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the shooting
was "justified"

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and said officers
will not be charged,

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prompting renewed protests
demanding justice for Brown.

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The district attorney
in Westchester, New York,

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has ordered
an independent review

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of two separate fatal
police shootings

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of Black men
over a decade ago:

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Danroy "DJ" Henry
and Kenneth Chamberlain Sr.,

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a 68-year-old former marine.

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Chamberlain was killed
in his own apartment

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in White Plains,
New York,

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in 2011
during a police confrontation

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after he accidentally triggered

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his LifeAid medical
alert pendant.

00:10:26.250 --> 00:10:30.430
Within two hours, officers
broke down his apartment door

00:10:32.790 --> 00:10:34.450
and shot him dead.

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Click here to see
our full coverage of his story.

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In Bexar County, Texas,

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a sheriff’s deputy has been
placed on administrative

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leave after video
surfaced of him

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tasering a 16-year-old
Honduran asylum seeker

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at the Southwest Key
Casa Blanca

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shelter in San Antonio
last year.

00:10:56.260 --> 00:10:58.360
Patrick Divers
was placed on leave

00:10:58.360 --> 00:11:01.810
after Reveal from The Center
for Investigative Reporting

00:11:01.810 --> 00:11:04.070
published video
of the tasering.

00:11:04.870 --> 00:11:07.440
Congressmember Joaquin Castro
is calling

00:11:07.440 --> 00:11:10.260
for a federal investigation
into what happened.

00:11:10.260 --> 00:11:14.520
Click here to see our interview
with Aura Bogado,

00:11:15.490 --> 00:11:17.190
who broke the story.

00:11:17.710 --> 00:11:20.360
Much of Puerto Rico lost power
on Thursday

00:11:20.360 --> 00:11:23.280
after a fire
at an electrical substation.

00:11:23.280 --> 00:11:25.340
The massive blackout
comes just days

00:11:25.340 --> 00:11:27.660
after the private U.S.
and Canadian company

00:11:27.660 --> 00:11:30.020
LUMA Energy formally
took over management

00:11:30.020 --> 00:11:31.420
of the island’s
electric grid

00:11:31.420 --> 00:11:33.690
from the Puerto Rico
Electric Power Authority,

00:11:33.690 --> 00:11:36.870
or PREPA, which was devastated
by Hurricane Maria.

00:11:37.820 --> 00:11:40.080
And those are some of the
headlines this is Democracy

00:11:40.080 --> 00:11:43.360
Now, Democracynow.org,
the War and Peace Report.

00:11:43.360 --> 00:11:45.260
I’m Amy Goodman.

00:11:45.260 --> 00:11:48.680
AMY GOODMAN: World leaders are
gathered in Cornwall in the U.K.

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for the first in-person G7
summit in two years.

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Talks are set to focus heavily

00:11:53.930 --> 00:11:57.030
on ending the pandemic
and the climate crisis.

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President Biden announced
the U.S.

00:11:58.650 --> 00:12:01.760
would donate an additional
half-billion COVID

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vaccine doses, quote,
"with no strings attached."

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PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
America will be

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the arsenal of vaccines
in our fight against COVID-19,

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just as America was
the arsenal of democracy

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during World War II. ...

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This U.S. contribution
is the foundation

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for additional
coordinated efforts

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to help vaccine the world —
vaccinate the world.

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AMY GOODMAN:
While Biden announced there

00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:29.920
will be no strings attached,

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the vaccine doses
will not go to Venezuela,

00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:34.890
which is under
U.S. sanction.

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Leaders of the G7 nations
are collectively pledging

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to donate a billion vaccine
doses to poorer countries.

00:12:41.710 --> 00:12:44.850
Advocacy groups are continuing
to apply pressure on governments

00:12:44.850 --> 00:12:47.540
to do more to end
the global vaccine apartheid,

00:12:47.540 --> 00:12:50.840
including waiving intellectual
property protections

00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:52.300
on vaccines.

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Protests are planned
throughout the summit

00:12:54.090 --> 00:12:56.110
amidst a heavy
police presence.

00:12:56.110 --> 00:12:57.400
Climate activists and groups

00:12:57.400 --> 00:13:00.650
including Greenpeace
and Extinction Rebellion

00:13:00.650 --> 00:13:02.840
are staging actions
to urge more forceful

00:13:02.840 --> 00:13:05.590
and immediate action
from G7 nations.

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Ahead of the summit, U.N.

00:13:06.900 --> 00:13:08.900
Secretary-General
António Guterres

00:13:08.900 --> 00:13:12.410
told NBC News
the climate crisis is urgent.

00:13:13.600 --> 00:13:15.690
SECRETARY-GENERAL ANTÓNIO 
GUTERRES: When you are at

00:13:15.690 --> 00:13:17.050
the verge of the abyss,

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you must be very careful
about your next step,

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because if the next step
is in the wrong direction,

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you will fall.

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ANNE THOMPSON:
How much time is left to act?

00:13:23.470 --> 00:13:24.720
SECRETARY-GENERAL ANTÓNIO 
GUTERRES: I think this year

00:13:24.720 --> 00:13:26.180
is the make-it-or-break-it year.

00:13:26.180 --> 00:13:30.240
If we fail in Glasgow, we’ll be
in a very difficult situation.

00:13:30.240 --> 00:13:32.270
As I said,
on the verge of the abyss,

00:13:32.270 --> 00:13:35.720
you must make sure that the next
step is in the right direction.

00:13:35.720 --> 00:13:37.600
AMY GOODMAN: G7 members
are expected today

00:13:37.600 --> 00:13:40.710
to endorse a minimum
global tax rate of 15%.

00:13:41.800 --> 00:13:44.150
For more, we’re joined in London
by Asad Rehman,

00:13:44.150 --> 00:13:45.720
executive director of War
on Want,

00:13:45.720 --> 00:13:49.070
spokesperson for the COP26
Climate Coalition.

00:13:49.070 --> 00:13:51.540
So, it’s all happening
in Cornwall,

00:13:51.540 --> 00:13:54.520
the first in-person meeting
of the G7, Asad.

00:13:54.520 --> 00:13:57.820
What are climate activists
around the world demanding?

00:13:57.820 --> 00:13:59.820
And what are the plans
for this weekend?

00:14:01.040 --> 00:14:03.390
ASAD REHMAN:
Well, as your intro said,

00:14:03.390 --> 00:14:06.020
the G7, the richest and the most
powerful economies in the world,

00:14:06.020 --> 00:14:07.240
are meeting.

00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:09.960
But the people who are not
around the table are, of course,

00:14:09.960 --> 00:14:12.550
those who are going to pay
the price for their decisions:

00:14:12.550 --> 00:14:14.380
the poorer majority
of the world.

00:14:14.380 --> 00:14:16.470
And the G7 meet
at a critical moment,

00:14:16.470 --> 00:14:18.450
because it’s not
just one crisis,

00:14:18.450 --> 00:14:20.950
but we face multiple
and companion crises,

00:14:20.950 --> 00:14:23.000
so extreme that we’re not
just at the crossroads

00:14:23.000 --> 00:14:24.230
in human history,

00:14:24.230 --> 00:14:26.650
we’re, of course, heading
towards a point of no return.

00:14:26.650 --> 00:14:29.460
And unfortunately,
from the pronouncements

00:14:29.460 --> 00:14:32.420
that we’ve already seen
and from what we understand

00:14:32.420 --> 00:14:34.890
will come out of the G7
in terms of the summit,

00:14:34.890 --> 00:14:37.030
they can see that our house
is on fire,

00:14:37.030 --> 00:14:39.270
yet, frankly,
they’re still discussing

00:14:39.270 --> 00:14:40.750
what color to paint the door.

00:14:40.750 --> 00:14:44.070
So, let’s just take the
climate crisis for example.

00:14:44.070 --> 00:14:46.960
Despite all the promises
to act on the climate emergency

00:14:46.960 --> 00:14:50.310
and recognizing
whilst no threshold is safe,

00:14:50.310 --> 00:14:52.410
and as we can see
from the devastating impacts

00:14:52.410 --> 00:14:55.430
for millions of lives
as we breach 1 degree,

00:14:55.430 --> 00:14:58.060
that we have to prevent
temperatures breaching 1.5,

00:14:58.660 --> 00:15:01.130
what we’re seeing is
carbon emissions in 2021

00:15:01.130 --> 00:15:02.970
at the highest
in a decade.

00:15:02.970 --> 00:15:04.560
Temperature levels
are heading towards

00:15:04.560 --> 00:15:07.240
at least two-and-a-half degrees,
if not more.

00:15:07.240 --> 00:15:10.970
The G7 is still pouring
close to 189 billion

00:15:10.970 --> 00:15:12.650
to fossil fuel extraction.

00:15:12.650 --> 00:15:15.770
They’re not making the pledges
that are needed to make sure

00:15:15.770 --> 00:15:17.380
that they’re doing
their fair share.

00:15:17.380 --> 00:15:18.740
And they’re still
not even meeting

00:15:18.740 --> 00:15:21.070
the broken promise
of a decade ago

00:15:21.070 --> 00:15:24.910
of realizing 100 billion
in much-needed climate finance,

00:15:24.910 --> 00:15:26.170
when every estimate

00:15:26.170 --> 00:15:28.890
says at least the minimum
that is now needed

00:15:28.890 --> 00:15:30.840
is at least close
to a trillion a year,

00:15:31.510 --> 00:15:34.230
for each and every year
for the coming decade.

00:15:34.230 --> 00:15:36.470
This is no longer about
climate denialism.

00:15:36.470 --> 00:15:39.220
What we’re seeing is,
is mitigation denialism.

00:15:39.220 --> 00:15:42.740
It’s the hope that somehow —
and John Kerry famously said

00:15:42.740 --> 00:15:46.100
this at the G7 finance
ministers’ meeting —

00:15:46.100 --> 00:15:49.260
that our quality of life
is not up for negotiation,

00:15:49.830 --> 00:15:51.770
but we’re going to rely
on technologies

00:15:51.770 --> 00:15:53.730
that don’t exist currently

00:15:53.730 --> 00:15:55.480
and that,
somewhere in the future,

00:15:55.480 --> 00:15:58.490
is going to suck out hundreds —
and I say hundreds —

00:15:58.490 --> 00:16:01.010
of billions of tons of carbon
from the atmosphere.

00:16:01.010 --> 00:16:03.980
I mean, that is just
unprecedented, public policy

00:16:03.980 --> 00:16:07.130
being made on the hope
of fingers being crossed

00:16:07.130 --> 00:16:09.910
and that something
will rescue us in the future.

00:16:09.910 --> 00:16:11.320
And the poorest
will pay the price.

00:16:11.320 --> 00:16:12.970
AMY GOODMAN: I want to turn
to another clip

00:16:12.970 --> 00:16:15.410
of U.N. Secretary-General
António Guterres

00:16:15.410 --> 00:16:17.810
in an interview that
originally appeared on NBC News

00:16:17.810 --> 00:16:20.420
and is broadcast here
as part of Covering Climate

00:16:20.420 --> 00:16:23.360
Now, a global consortium
of news outlets

00:16:23.360 --> 00:16:25.800
strengthening coverage
of the climate story.

00:16:25.800 --> 00:16:28.050
He was interviewed
by reporter Anne Thompson.

00:16:28.990 --> 00:16:30.280
ANNE THOMPSON:
Can the world

00:16:30.280 --> 00:16:32.580
combat the worst
of climate change

00:16:32.580 --> 00:16:34.720
without helping poor countries?
SECRETARY-GENERAL ANTÓNIO 

00:16:34.720 --> 00:16:35.930
GUTERRES:
It’s impossible. ...

00:16:35.930 --> 00:16:38.030
You need to create
the conditions for a transition

00:16:38.030 --> 00:16:40.130
from coal
to renewable energy.

00:16:40.130 --> 00:16:42.470
And that, of course,
requires financial investment,

00:16:42.470 --> 00:16:44.740
financial support
and technological support

00:16:44.740 --> 00:16:47.290
to developing countries
that still rely on coal

00:16:47.290 --> 00:16:49.040
for their own energy
needs. ...

00:16:49.040 --> 00:16:50.550
More and more countries
are committing

00:16:50.550 --> 00:16:52.830
not to finance
coal plants even abroad.

00:16:52.830 --> 00:16:54.220
Korea has done it.

00:16:54.220 --> 00:16:56.019
I hope the G7
will be able to do it.

00:16:56.700 --> 00:16:57.960
AMY GOODMAN:
And so, Asad Rehman,

00:16:57.960 --> 00:17:01.180
talk more about this moment,
where climate —

00:17:01.180 --> 00:17:05.150
it’s the first time ever
it’s on the agenda of G7.

00:17:05.150 --> 00:17:07.440
And also,
if you can talk specifically

00:17:07.440 --> 00:17:09.890
about Britain’s role
on climate?

00:17:09.890 --> 00:17:13.210
The U.K. recently called
for a climate Marshall Plan.

00:17:13.210 --> 00:17:16.130
And your assessment
of President Biden’s plans?

00:17:17.450 --> 00:17:22.160
ASAD REHMAN: Well, the U.K.
government takes the world stage

00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:24.810
and claims that it’s
a climate leader and says,

00:17:24.810 --> 00:17:26.700
"We’ve cut our emissions
by 50%."

00:17:27.530 --> 00:17:29.630
But, actually,
if you take out the —

00:17:30.300 --> 00:17:33.430
because none of those emissions
include aviation or shipping

00:17:33.430 --> 00:17:36.130
or all the embedded emissions
of the issues that —

00:17:36.660 --> 00:17:38.580
of the products
that the U.K. consumes,

00:17:38.580 --> 00:17:41.500
we’re actually only talking
about 15% emission reductions.

00:17:41.500 --> 00:17:44.490
That’s about half a percent
of emission reduction.

00:17:44.490 --> 00:17:47.580
We’re nowhere near the scale
of emission reductions.

00:17:47.580 --> 00:17:51.690
Rich countries are still talking
about net-zero goals in 2050,

00:17:51.690 --> 00:17:55.180
when they should be talking
about decarbonizing by 2030.

00:17:55.180 --> 00:18:00.000
And the COVID pandemic gives us
a really good example

00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:03.670
of how these rich countries
are, of course, responding,

00:18:03.670 --> 00:18:07.060
both to the COVID pandemic,
but also to the climate crisis.

00:18:07.060 --> 00:18:08.610
We’ve all heard the words,

00:18:08.610 --> 00:18:10.760
"No one is safe
until everyone is safe."

00:18:10.760 --> 00:18:13.230
We can all see that millions
of people are dying around

00:18:13.230 --> 00:18:14.630
in every corner of the world.

00:18:14.630 --> 00:18:17.280
And yet rich countries
not just hoarded the vaccines,

00:18:18.060 --> 00:18:21.180
meaning that at the current rate
it will be 57 years

00:18:21.180 --> 00:18:23.580
before everyone in the world
is vaccinated,

00:18:23.580 --> 00:18:25.590
but they’re actively
backing Big Pharma

00:18:25.590 --> 00:18:27.180
and protecting their profits.

00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:32.050
Now, if they won’t lift
the intellectual property rights

00:18:32.050 --> 00:18:33.860
on COVID vaccines,

00:18:33.860 --> 00:18:36.370
what hope is there
for poorer countries

00:18:36.370 --> 00:18:38.520
that they’re going to lift
the intellectual property rights

00:18:38.520 --> 00:18:40.980
and provide the technology
and the finance for them

00:18:40.980 --> 00:18:42.960
to be able to deal
with the climate impacts,

00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:44.340
to be able to grow cleanly,

00:18:44.340 --> 00:18:49.110
to be able to transition away
from the fossil fuel economy?

00:18:49.110 --> 00:18:51.700
And this is, of course,
at the very same time

00:18:51.700 --> 00:18:54.060
as this incredible crisis
of inequality,

00:18:54.060 --> 00:18:56.330
where 80% of the world
faces poverty,

00:18:56.920 --> 00:19:00.270
half of it is still struggling
on the equivalent of $5 a day,

00:19:00.270 --> 00:19:04.520
and not just facing that,
but is rapidly getting worse.

00:19:04.520 --> 00:19:08.140
We’ve heard over the last year
500 million jobs have been lost.

00:19:08.140 --> 00:19:09.500
Hundreds of millions of people

00:19:09.500 --> 00:19:11.350
have been pushed
into extreme poverty.

00:19:11.350 --> 00:19:13.210
The very tools
that rich countries use

00:19:13.210 --> 00:19:14.640
to protect their economies

00:19:14.640 --> 00:19:17.010
are being denied to those
in poorer countries.

00:19:17.010 --> 00:19:21.090
And what we’ve seen
is simply rich countries

00:19:21.090 --> 00:19:23.100
doing too little too late

00:19:23.100 --> 00:19:25.050
and not taking up
their responsibility,

00:19:25.050 --> 00:19:28.470
and unfortunately this G7
has not changed that at all.

00:19:28.470 --> 00:19:30.640
AMY GOODMAN:
And finally, your organization,

00:19:30.640 --> 00:19:34.000
War on Want, a global
anti-poverty organization,

00:19:34.000 --> 00:19:37.690
does more than focus on climate,
so if you can make the link,

00:19:37.690 --> 00:19:43.460
and what you demand of the G7,
not only around climate,

00:19:43.460 --> 00:19:46.170
but also in the midst
of this pandemic?

00:19:46.920 --> 00:19:48.360
You have climate apartheid,

00:19:48.360 --> 00:19:50.220
what countries
get hit the hardest,

00:19:50.900 --> 00:19:53.310
and also, of course,
vaccine apartheid.

00:19:53.310 --> 00:19:54.630
ASAD REHMAN: Absolutely.

00:19:54.630 --> 00:19:56.690
We see these forms
of apartheid being played out.

00:19:56.690 --> 00:19:59.090
As you rightly said,
we see a COVID apartheid,

00:19:59.730 --> 00:20:02.060
we see climate apartheid,
we see economic apartheid.

00:20:02.060 --> 00:20:05.130
We see inequality and injustice
all around the world.

00:20:05.130 --> 00:20:07.020
Really, what the G7
should be announcing

00:20:07.020 --> 00:20:08.340
is a global Green New Deal.

00:20:08.340 --> 00:20:09.850
They should be announcing
and saying,

00:20:09.850 --> 00:20:11.510
"We’re committed
to making sure

00:20:11.510 --> 00:20:13.870
that everybody has the right
to a living wage,

00:20:13.870 --> 00:20:16.720
to universal public services,
health, education, housing."

00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:18.750
We all have seen
how critical they are,

00:20:18.750 --> 00:20:20.560
not only to dealing
with the pandemic,

00:20:20.560 --> 00:20:23.440
but are critical in terms of
dealing with the climate crisis.

00:20:23.440 --> 00:20:26.060
We need to make food
and energy a public good,

00:20:26.060 --> 00:20:28.430
so that we can
share them equitably.

00:20:29.010 --> 00:20:31.300
We have enough in the world,
but, of course,

00:20:31.300 --> 00:20:35.000
much of it is concentrated
in the hands of a small elite.

00:20:35.000 --> 00:20:38.660
Just the top 1%, their emissions
currently are double

00:20:38.660 --> 00:20:41.340
those of the bottom
three-and-a-half billion people.

00:20:41.340 --> 00:20:43.740
If they were just reducing
their emissions,

00:20:43.740 --> 00:20:46.380
we’d begin to see
a major step forward.

00:20:46.380 --> 00:20:49.170
We need a radical transformation
of our broken economy.

00:20:49.170 --> 00:20:52.330
We need to fix our unjust
fair trade — unjust trade rules.

00:20:52.330 --> 00:20:54.820
We need to cap
the power of corporations.

00:20:54.820 --> 00:20:58.950
And even the announcement about
taxation of multinationals,

00:20:58.950 --> 00:21:01.100
it’s, yes, a small step forward
on the 15%,

00:21:01.870 --> 00:21:04.900
but we already can see
that they are actively saying

00:21:04.900 --> 00:21:06.890
that that won’t apply
to finance,

00:21:06.890 --> 00:21:09.580
that won’t apply
to the big banks,

00:21:09.580 --> 00:21:12.460
that already there are going
to be so many loopholes.

00:21:12.460 --> 00:21:15.200
What we really need is about
25% corporation tax

00:21:15.200 --> 00:21:16.410
around the world.

00:21:16.410 --> 00:21:18.860
We need to make sure that
we’re not just canceling debt

00:21:18.860 --> 00:21:20.150
for the poorer countries,

00:21:20.150 --> 00:21:22.290
but actually we have
a plan of reparations,

00:21:22.290 --> 00:21:25.180
of finance going from the Global
North to the Global South.

00:21:25.180 --> 00:21:26.750
It’s no good talking
about charity.

00:21:26.750 --> 00:21:29.250
And all of these countries
talk about, you know,

00:21:29.250 --> 00:21:31.470
that their response
has been greatly charitable.

00:21:31.470 --> 00:21:34.800
For every $1 that is going
from the North to the South,

00:21:34.800 --> 00:21:36.880
$24 flows the other way

00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:39.130
and enriches
our big multinationals

00:21:39.840 --> 00:21:42.380
and countries
in the Global North.

00:21:42.380 --> 00:21:46.020
We can no longer tinker
around the edges.

00:21:46.020 --> 00:21:47.830
We need
a fundamental transition.

00:21:47.830 --> 00:21:49.510
And these coming years
will determine,

00:21:49.510 --> 00:21:51.100
literally,
the shape of the world.

00:21:51.100 --> 00:21:53.030
It will determine who dies,
who lives,

00:21:53.030 --> 00:21:55.740
and what kind of economy
that we’re going to have.

00:21:55.740 --> 00:21:58.530
There is incredible demands
coming up from the bottom —

00:21:58.530 --> 00:22:00.490
you see it in every corner
of the world —

00:22:00.490 --> 00:22:03.530
basically saying, "Our economy
is no longer fit for purpose.

00:22:03.530 --> 00:22:04.780
It’s failing people.

00:22:04.780 --> 00:22:07.670
It doesn’t give people the
quality of life that they need.

00:22:07.670 --> 00:22:10.780
It doesn’t give them dignity.
We need a transformation."

00:22:10.780 --> 00:22:12.860
AMY GOODMAN: Asad Rehman, I want
to thank you for being with us,

00:22:12.860 --> 00:22:14.260
executive director
of War on Want,

00:22:14.260 --> 00:22:15.820
global anti-poverty group,

00:22:15.820 --> 00:22:19.410
and the spokesperson
for the COP26 Climate Coalition,

00:22:19.410 --> 00:22:21.470
speaking to us from London.

00:22:21.470 --> 00:22:23.540
Next up, the Biden
administration

00:22:23.540 --> 00:22:25.910
continues to seek
the extradition of

00:22:25.910 --> 00:22:28.240
WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange
from Britain

00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:29.620
to the United States,

00:22:29.620 --> 00:22:33.870
where he faces up
to 175 years in prison.

00:22:33.870 --> 00:22:36.710
We’ll speak to Julian’s father
and half-brother.

00:22:36.710 --> 00:22:39.640
They’re touring
the United States to advocate

00:22:39.640 --> 00:22:43.470
for his release from a
high-security prison in Britain.

00:22:43.470 --> 00:22:45.170
Stay with us.

00:23:58.000 --> 00:23:59.340
AMY GOODMAN:
This is Democracy Now!,

00:23:59.340 --> 00:24:02.490
democracynow.org,
The Quarantine Report.

00:24:02.490 --> 00:24:04.660
I’m Amy Goodman.

00:24:04.660 --> 00:24:08.110
By the way, you can sign up
for our daily news digest email

00:24:08.110 --> 00:24:10.460
by texting the word
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00:24:15.090 --> 00:24:19.190
That’s "democracynow" —
one word — to 66866.

00:24:19.770 --> 00:24:22.470
The U.S. State Department
has pushed to extradite

00:24:22.470 --> 00:24:25.190
WikiLeaks founder
Julian Assange from Britain,

00:24:25.190 --> 00:24:28.090
where he has been locked up
for over two years

00:24:28.090 --> 00:24:31.910
after being dragged out of the
Ecuadorian Embassy in London,

00:24:31.910 --> 00:24:33.670
where he was taking refuge.

00:24:33.670 --> 00:24:36.570
President Joe Biden is now
meeting with world leaders

00:24:36.570 --> 00:24:39.380
in the U.K.
during the G7 summit.

00:24:39.380 --> 00:24:43.270
A U.K. judge blocked Assange’s
extradition in January,

00:24:43.270 --> 00:24:46.010
citing serious
mental health concerns.

00:24:46.010 --> 00:24:48.130
Assange was indicted
for violations

00:24:48.130 --> 00:24:50.770
of the U.S. Espionage Act

00:24:50.770 --> 00:24:53.700
related to the publication
of classified documents

00:24:53.700 --> 00:24:56.040
exposing U.S. war crimes.

00:24:56.040 --> 00:24:59.240
He faces up to 175 years
in prison,

00:24:59.240 --> 00:25:01.220
if brought to the U.S.

00:25:01.220 --> 00:25:02.780
On Thursday,
the British Parliament

00:25:02.780 --> 00:25:04.850
held a debate
on the safety of journalists,

00:25:04.850 --> 00:25:09.010
where Labour lawmaker Richard
Burgon addressed Assange’s case.

00:25:10.400 --> 00:25:13.350
MP RICHARD BURGON:
I appeal to President Joe Biden,

00:25:13.350 --> 00:25:16.520
now in the country for the G7,

00:25:16.520 --> 00:25:20.710
to drop the charges so that
the extradition is called off.

00:25:21.940 --> 00:25:24.240
AMY GOODMAN:
This comes as Julian Assange’s

00:25:24.240 --> 00:25:26.150
father and brother

00:25:26.150 --> 00:25:29.600
are on a nationwide tour
of the United States

00:25:29.600 --> 00:25:33.620
to advocate for the founder
of WikiLeaks’ release.

00:25:33.620 --> 00:25:36.230
They’re joining us
now here in New York.

00:25:36.230 --> 00:25:38.610
John Shipton is Julian’s father.

00:25:38.610 --> 00:25:42.550
Gabriel Shipton is a filmmaker
and Julian’s brother.

00:25:42.550 --> 00:25:44.280
We welcome you both
to Democracy Now!

00:25:44.280 --> 00:25:48.910
Thanks so much for joining us.
Gabriel, let’s begin with you.

00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:51.020
First of all,
did it surprise you

00:25:51.020 --> 00:25:55.360
to hear Julian’s case brought up
in the British Parliament?

00:25:55.360 --> 00:25:58.270
And talk about
where the case stands.

00:25:58.270 --> 00:26:01.320
The extradition was denied
by a judge in January,

00:26:01.320 --> 00:26:02.580
yet he’s still

00:26:02.580 --> 00:26:04.810
in the maximum-security
Belmarsh Prison.

00:26:07.150 --> 00:26:08.770
GABRIEL SHIPTON:
I think I wasn’t surprised

00:26:08.770 --> 00:26:10.320
to hear it brought up
in the Parliament.

00:26:10.320 --> 00:26:12.090
There’s quite
a large support group

00:26:12.090 --> 00:26:14.640
for Julian
in the U.K. Parliament.

00:26:14.640 --> 00:26:16.830
I think it’s got
almost 30 members.

00:26:17.600 --> 00:26:23.050
So, that group is advocating
for the charges to be dropped

00:26:23.050 --> 00:26:26.110
and the extradition
to be stopped.

00:26:27.380 --> 00:26:30.210
So, where Julian’s case is at,
at the moment,

00:26:30.210 --> 00:26:31.440
you know, as you said,

00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:34.610
his extradition was rejected
on the 4th of January,

00:26:36.260 --> 00:26:38.650
and his bail was refused
on the 6th of January.

00:26:38.650 --> 00:26:43.410
So, the U.S. has appealed
the extradition rejection,

00:26:43.410 --> 00:26:45.560
and it’s been six months
now since Julian —

00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:47.720
since that
extradition rejection,

00:26:47.720 --> 00:26:52.480
and we still don’t know when
there will be an appeal date.

00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:54.860
So Julian has just been sitting
in Belmarsh Prison

00:26:54.860 --> 00:26:56.250
for six months,

00:26:56.250 --> 00:26:59.070
not knowing when there
will be an appeal heard.

00:27:00.040 --> 00:27:01.470
So, really, what I think
we’re seeing

00:27:01.470 --> 00:27:04.620
is an abuse of process
to keep Julian imprisoned.

00:27:05.640 --> 00:27:09.020
And, you know, he hasn’t had
any visits since October.

00:27:10.780 --> 00:27:12.350
The prison
is in a COVID lockdown.

00:27:12.350 --> 00:27:15.740
So, the situation
there is really dire,

00:27:15.740 --> 00:27:18.930
and Julian is suffering
inside that prison,

00:27:18.930 --> 00:27:22.400
for basically just —
he’s on remand.

00:27:22.400 --> 00:27:26.590
He has no sentence.
So, why is he in that prison?

00:27:26.590 --> 00:27:28.450
I just don’t understand.

00:27:28.450 --> 00:27:31.450
AMY GOODMAN: John Shipton,
you’re Julian Assange’s father.

00:27:31.450 --> 00:27:33.549
When was the last time
you got to see him?

00:27:35.190 --> 00:27:36.930
JOHN SHIPTON:
Good morning, Amy.

00:27:36.930 --> 00:27:41.380
Sometime ago now,
March last year, I had visited.

00:27:41.380 --> 00:27:43.600
Since then,
it’s not been possible.

00:27:43.600 --> 00:27:48.510
There was one visit of Julian’s
children to the prison,

00:27:48.510 --> 00:27:50.870
and Stella, his partner.

00:27:50.870 --> 00:27:55.840
But they had to be separated
during the visit by two meters —

00:27:56.500 --> 00:28:03.150
or two yards, in your money.
And Julian had to wear full PPE.

00:28:03.150 --> 00:28:06.680
Now, Julian is in his cell
23 hours a day.

00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:08.650
The guard said to Julian,

00:28:08.650 --> 00:28:14.060
"If your children embrace you
or Stella embraces you,

00:28:14.060 --> 00:28:18.290
you will have to spend
the next two weeks in lockdown,

00:28:18.290 --> 00:28:19.950
23 hours a day in your cell."

00:28:19.950 --> 00:28:25.130
You can see that there’s comic
ironies and difficulties

00:28:25.130 --> 00:28:27.410
all the time
in the treatment of Julian.

00:28:27.410 --> 00:28:29.580
But that was the last visit.

00:28:29.580 --> 00:28:34.230
Gabriel visited
in October last year.

00:28:34.230 --> 00:28:38.820
So, it’s a very
uncomfortable situation.

00:28:40.170 --> 00:28:42.350
AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to go
to Nils Melzer,

00:28:42.350 --> 00:28:45.570
the United Nations
special rapporteur on torture,

00:28:45.570 --> 00:28:48.700
who visited Julian Assange
in London’s Belmarsh

00:28:48.700 --> 00:28:50.550
Prison
several years ago.

00:28:51.930 --> 00:28:53.810
NILS MELZER:
I spoke with him for an hour

00:28:53.810 --> 00:28:55.720
just to get a good
first impression.

00:28:55.720 --> 00:28:57.620
Then we had
a physical examination

00:28:57.620 --> 00:29:00.220
for an hour
by our forensic expert,

00:29:00.220 --> 00:29:04.600
and then we had the two-hour
psychiatric examination.

00:29:04.600 --> 00:29:07.960
And all three of us
had the same impression —

00:29:07.960 --> 00:29:09.470
and, well, I had certainly
an impression,

00:29:09.470 --> 00:29:12.170
and the medical doctors
had a diagnosis,

00:29:12.700 --> 00:29:14.210
that they — we all came
to the conclusion

00:29:14.210 --> 00:29:17.500
that he showed all the symptoms
that are typical for a person

00:29:17.500 --> 00:29:20.060
that has been exposed
to psychological torture

00:29:20.060 --> 00:29:21.760
over an extended
period of time.

00:29:22.510 --> 00:29:23.920
AMY GOODMAN:
So, that’s Nils Melzer,

00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:26.360
the United Nations special
rapporteur on torture

00:29:26.360 --> 00:29:29.870
and other cruel, inhuman
or degrading treatment

00:29:29.870 --> 00:29:31.750
or punishment,

00:29:31.750 --> 00:29:35.030
often shortened to the U.N.
special rapporteur on torture.

00:29:36.890 --> 00:29:41.310
John, explain what your son
is going through,

00:29:41.310 --> 00:29:43.910
the kind of isolation
he’s faced.

00:29:43.910 --> 00:29:47.100
He’s been at Belmarsh
for several years,

00:29:47.100 --> 00:29:49.950
but, before that,
also in a sense,

00:29:49.950 --> 00:29:51.920
to say the least,
very isolated,

00:29:51.920 --> 00:29:54.960
though could see more people —
we at Democracy Now!,

00:29:54.960 --> 00:29:57.910
I went to see him a number
of times to interview him,

00:29:57.910 --> 00:30:00.610
and before, when he
was under house arrest —

00:30:00.610 --> 00:30:05.720
all this because the U.S.
wants him in the United States

00:30:06.510 --> 00:30:11.030
to try him under
the U.S. treason act.

00:30:13.510 --> 00:30:18.450
Can you talk about
his mental state of mind now

00:30:18.450 --> 00:30:22.280
and why he does the work
he does as a publisher of

00:30:22.280 --> 00:30:24.080
WikiLeaks, and what he faces?

00:30:25.390 --> 00:30:29.290
JOHN SHIPTON: Well, Amy,
the circumstances are,

00:30:29.290 --> 00:30:33.840
of course, described by
Nils Melzer very accurately.

00:30:33.840 --> 00:30:35.950
The mobbing, the smearing,

00:30:35.950 --> 00:30:38.900
the constantly not knowing
where he’s staying —

00:30:38.900 --> 00:30:40.740
there’s no end to it,

00:30:40.740 --> 00:30:46.220
so you can’t count on one day
being able to see your children

00:30:48.210 --> 00:30:54.700
— over the number of years,
has accumulated to a situation

00:30:54.700 --> 00:30:58.380
where Nils Melzer accurately

00:30:58.380 --> 00:31:01.830
describes it
as psychological torture.

00:31:01.830 --> 00:31:07.290
This circumstance is —
well, it’s easily fixed.

00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:12.990
The G7 meeting
is based upon values,

00:31:12.990 --> 00:31:17.360
and yet they have, just a few
kilometers down the road,

00:31:18.030 --> 00:31:21.260
a foremost journalist in jail.

00:31:21.260 --> 00:31:27.200
And so, they can be genuine
about basing the new world

00:31:27.200 --> 00:31:32.240
order on values
and release Julian.

00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:33.940
That would be something sincere.

00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:37.480
As to Julian,
what motivates him,

00:31:37.990 --> 00:31:43.100
always Julian rejects,

00:31:43.100 --> 00:31:50.040
and has a sort of a natural
leaning towards, injustice,

00:31:50.040 --> 00:31:52.530
so wherever
there’s an injustice.

00:31:52.530 --> 00:31:57.800
Also to right injustices
requires speaking truthfully.

00:31:58.570 --> 00:32:01.760
The third thing is that freedom

00:32:02.270 --> 00:32:05.030
only comes about
through knowledge.

00:32:05.030 --> 00:32:08.450
So, once
you accumulate knowledge

00:32:08.450 --> 00:32:10.150
and talk to your friends,

00:32:10.770 --> 00:32:14.790
you are able then to make
proper decisions and understand

00:32:14.790 --> 00:32:19.160
the circumstances that you’re in
or your community is in.

00:32:19.160 --> 00:32:22.670
So, those three elements
seem to be,

00:32:22.670 --> 00:32:25.760
to me,
the prime motivating forces

00:32:25.760 --> 00:32:30.340
in the manifestation
of Julian in the world.

00:32:35.210 --> 00:32:37.820
AMY GOODMAN:
Julian applied for bail.

00:32:37.820 --> 00:32:41.310
I mean, the judge ruled
he was a suicide risk.

00:32:41.310 --> 00:32:44.930
She would not extradite him
to the United States, Gabriel.

00:32:47.220 --> 00:32:50.280
And yet he
has been denied bail.

00:32:50.280 --> 00:32:52.750
Can you talk about
the significance of this?

00:32:52.750 --> 00:32:56.090
Why is he being held
in London right now?

00:32:56.090 --> 00:33:00.840
And are you concerned
that Joe Biden,

00:33:00.840 --> 00:33:04.670
now president
of the United States, said —

00:33:04.670 --> 00:33:06.580
when he was vice president,

00:33:06.580 --> 00:33:10.710
he likened Julian
to a "high-tech terrorist"?

00:33:10.710 --> 00:33:14.710
That was the strongest criticism
of the Obama administration.

00:33:14.710 --> 00:33:16.240
Have you had any dealings

00:33:16.240 --> 00:33:19.100
with the Biden administration
at this point?

00:33:20.780 --> 00:33:22.150
GABRIEL SHIPTON:
I think, you know,

00:33:22.150 --> 00:33:23.950
why Julian is still in prison,

00:33:23.950 --> 00:33:30.160
he’s being punished like this
as an example to everyone else,

00:33:30.160 --> 00:33:34.560
everyone else who might think
about speaking truth to power,

00:33:35.410 --> 00:33:37.260
that this is what
will happen to you.

00:33:38.140 --> 00:33:41.460
You know, this is the extent
that you will be pursued.

00:33:41.980 --> 00:33:45.420
So, if you think
about publishing truth

00:33:45.420 --> 00:33:47.120
or truthful information,

00:33:48.280 --> 00:33:52.470
this is an — you know, Julian is
the example of what will happen.

00:33:52.470 --> 00:33:57.290
So, this chilling effect
is already in place

00:33:57.290 --> 00:33:59.520
by what we’re seeing,
you know, what we’ve seen happen

00:33:59.520 --> 00:34:05.370
to Julian over the last
12 years of his detainment.

00:34:07.270 --> 00:34:10.650
We were here in January
this year

00:34:11.300 --> 00:34:13.740
trying to see
the Biden administration.

00:34:13.740 --> 00:34:16.190
We did have some contact
through an intermediary,

00:34:16.730 --> 00:34:19.910
with the human rights people
in the administration,

00:34:20.930 --> 00:34:24.260
who — you know,
we got a letter in to them,

00:34:24.260 --> 00:34:28.570
and they said, "Let’s meet
after the 20th of January."

00:34:28.570 --> 00:34:31.440
But, obviously,
a lot’s happened since then,

00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:36.060
and the Biden administration
has a lot to deal

00:34:36.060 --> 00:34:37.760
with at the moment.

00:34:38.430 --> 00:34:41.720
But really, I think this has to
come from the DOJ,

00:34:41.720 --> 00:34:46.180
you know, Merrick Garland.
This is a Trump-era prosecution.

00:34:46.180 --> 00:34:50.210
And, you know, under —
an independent DOJ, under Obama,

00:34:50.210 --> 00:34:54.230
found that this prosecution,
they couldn’t prosecute Julian

00:34:54.230 --> 00:34:56.850
because of what they called
The New York Times problem,

00:34:56.850 --> 00:34:58.270
and so they didn’t
pursue the case.

00:34:58.270 --> 00:34:59.480
And at the end of —

00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:00.710
AMY GOODMAN: What’s The New York
Times problem?

00:35:00.710 --> 00:35:01.930
GABRIEL SHIPTON:
— Obama’s term, you know,

00:35:01.930 --> 00:35:03.220
Obama-Biden’s term,

00:35:03.220 --> 00:35:05.950
Obama commuted Chelsea
Manning’s sentence.

00:35:05.950 --> 00:35:10.650
Chelsea Manning is the leaker
that Julian is charged —

00:35:10.650 --> 00:35:13.710
that the Espionage Act charges
are relating to, to Julian.

00:35:14.760 --> 00:35:19.090
So, that was a clear signal
from the Biden-Obama presidency

00:35:19.810 --> 00:35:25.190
that this prosecution
wasn’t going to go forward.

00:35:25.190 --> 00:35:26.630
And it was only under Trump —

00:35:26.630 --> 00:35:28.870
and it was the Trump DOJ,
Jeff Sessions

00:35:28.870 --> 00:35:33.790
and then William Barr,
who opened up this prosecution.

00:35:34.370 --> 00:35:37.870
And so, you know, we’re just
asking Biden and Merrick Garland

00:35:38.380 --> 00:35:41.310
to just revert
to the independent DOJ

00:35:41.310 --> 00:35:44.730
under Obama’s position
that this prosecution

00:35:44.730 --> 00:35:47.840
was detrimental
to a free press

00:35:48.980 --> 00:35:52.110
and First Amendment
and the Constitution,

00:35:52.110 --> 00:35:54.860
which is — you know,
I think we find it quite ironic

00:35:54.860 --> 00:35:57.180
that two Australians
are traveling the country,

00:35:57.180 --> 00:35:59.240
traveling the U.S.,

00:35:59.240 --> 00:36:02.100
talking about a free press
and the First Amendment.

00:36:03.210 --> 00:36:05.870
AMY GOODMAN:
John, if you can talk about

00:36:05.870 --> 00:36:09.640
what Julian released,
the kind of information,

00:36:09.640 --> 00:36:12.470
the, ultimately,
millions of documents,

00:36:12.470 --> 00:36:15.320
on the Afghan War,
on the Iraq War,

00:36:15.320 --> 00:36:18.110
the State Department cables?

00:36:18.940 --> 00:36:21.760
And if you could start
by talking about a video

00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:23.800
we have shown
a number of times,

00:36:23.800 --> 00:36:27.270
because WikiLeaks made
this available?

00:36:27.270 --> 00:36:31.830
It was a video that Reuters
had requested for years.

00:36:31.830 --> 00:36:34.710
It’s about what happened
to their two employees.

00:36:34.710 --> 00:36:37.770
Namir Noor-Eldeen,
their 22-year-old up-and-coming

00:36:37.770 --> 00:36:39.070
videographer,

00:36:39.070 --> 00:36:43.880
and his driver, Saeed Chmagh,
father of four, 40 years old,

00:36:44.510 --> 00:36:47.900
were in this area of Baghdad
called New Baghdad,

00:36:47.900 --> 00:36:49.870
and they were being
taken around by the community

00:36:49.870 --> 00:36:51.800
to show what had happened
in their community

00:36:51.800 --> 00:36:53.760
the day before,
a bombing.

00:36:53.760 --> 00:36:56.580
And a U.S. Apache helicopter
comes overhead

00:36:57.140 --> 00:37:02.380
and opens fire
on this group of men below,

00:37:02.930 --> 00:37:05.310
killing both Reuters staffers,

00:37:05.310 --> 00:37:07.420
as well as
the community members.

00:37:08.500 --> 00:37:11.230
Can you talk about
the significance of this video

00:37:11.230 --> 00:37:12.590
coming out,

00:37:12.590 --> 00:37:16.120
that Chelsea Manning had
made available to WikiLeaks,

00:37:16.120 --> 00:37:18.020
and other examples?

00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.070
JOHN SHIPTON:
Well, yes.

00:37:22.070 --> 00:37:27.650
That video is sort of
like fundamental to a change

00:37:27.650 --> 00:37:30.580
in understanding
of the United States

00:37:30.580 --> 00:37:33.170
and its allies in Iraq

00:37:33.170 --> 00:37:35.400
and their destruction
of that country.

00:37:36.090 --> 00:37:41.380
So, that is a pivotal point.
So we understand, from that,

00:37:41.380 --> 00:37:47.280
that the occupation
of Iraq was a tragedy,

00:37:48.260 --> 00:37:52.740
and that the ongoingness
of that tragedy

00:37:52.740 --> 00:37:55.220
is in the Iraq War files.

00:37:56.300 --> 00:37:59.410
So, the Iraq War files revealed

00:37:59.410 --> 00:38:04.370
that 15,000 civilian deaths
had happened

00:38:04.370 --> 00:38:10.350
and that were unreported
in the current literature,

00:38:10.350 --> 00:38:12.790
but they were
in the Iraq War files.

00:38:12.790 --> 00:38:17.170
One of the really important
revelations

00:38:17.170 --> 00:38:21.210
in the diplomatic cables
was that there is an attack

00:38:21.980 --> 00:38:25.960
by a group of soldiers
on a house outside Baghdad

00:38:25.960 --> 00:38:31.200
wherein the entire family
was destroyed and killed.

00:38:32.160 --> 00:38:37.280
Contemplating this crime, the
soldiers called in an airstrike

00:38:37.280 --> 00:38:41.500
and obliterated all evidence
of those murders

00:38:42.110 --> 00:38:44.460
and destroyed the house.

00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:48.310
When this cable was seen,
after the release by

00:38:48.310 --> 00:38:52.610
WikiLeaks, when it was seen
by the Iraqi parliament,

00:38:52.610 --> 00:38:56.420
the Iraqi parliament gathered
together the courage

00:38:56.420 --> 00:39:03.160
to refuse the status of forces
agreement that the United States

00:39:03.160 --> 00:39:05.450
and its allies
had put before them.

00:39:05.450 --> 00:39:07.660
As a consequence
of that refusal,

00:39:08.250 --> 00:39:14.150
the United States and its allies
withdrew their troops from Iraq.

00:39:14.860 --> 00:39:17.690
So, in this circumstance,
as we can see,

00:39:18.230 --> 00:39:21.010
a profound thing about the leaks

00:39:21.010 --> 00:39:23.770
and the publication
of those leaks,

00:39:23.770 --> 00:39:28.090
that it brought about peace,
and it ended a war.

00:39:28.090 --> 00:39:32.600
There are several more examples
of that.

00:39:32.600 --> 00:39:37.530
So, there’s an — an American
lawyer, Clive Stafford Smith,

00:39:37.530 --> 00:39:41.460
set up an organization
named Reprieve.

00:39:41.980 --> 00:39:45.370
And using the Guantánamo
Bay files,

00:39:46.610 --> 00:39:49.680
Clive was able to go
to Guantánamo Bay

00:39:49.680 --> 00:39:52.930
and secure the release
of prisoners

00:39:52.930 --> 00:39:57.570
who were there
under circumstances

00:39:57.570 --> 00:39:59.470
that they’re innocent
of any crime

00:39:59.470 --> 00:40:05.580
and had been sold
to the United States Army

00:40:05.580 --> 00:40:07.460
and moved to Guantánamo Bay.

00:40:07.460 --> 00:40:12.220
Twenty-two of those prisoners
were children at the time.

00:40:13.060 --> 00:40:15.120
So, that’s another circumstance.

00:40:15.120 --> 00:40:17.480
A third one,
if I could illustrate,

00:40:19.680 --> 00:40:23.980
this time concerns
the United Kingdom’s

00:40:23.980 --> 00:40:28.320
removal of the entire population
of the Chagos Islands

00:40:28.320 --> 00:40:31.100
in order to provide
the United States

00:40:31.100 --> 00:40:36.320
with an air base
called Diego Garcia.

00:40:37.150 --> 00:40:41.330
Using the revelations
in the cables,

00:40:41.330 --> 00:40:46.360
the people of the Chagos Islands
and their lawyers

00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:48.300
were able to take a case

00:40:48.300 --> 00:40:52.210
to the International Court
of Justice and win.

00:40:52.730 --> 00:40:55.880
Despite
the United Kingdom’s appeal,

00:40:55.880 --> 00:40:59.170
they continued to prevail.

00:40:59.170 --> 00:41:05.550
So, there’s three examples
of what a leak can bring about

00:41:05.550 --> 00:41:12.050
and the importance
of these revelations.

00:41:12.050 --> 00:41:16.220
And finally,
that those documents

00:41:16.220 --> 00:41:20.420
are in a searchable library,
so that, ongoing,

00:41:21.770 --> 00:41:27.280
they can be used to further
people’s desire for justice

00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:31.140
and to deepen
the understanding of the people

00:41:31.140 --> 00:41:38.420
of the United States of the
involvement of their Pentagon

00:41:38.420 --> 00:41:41.740
and their foreign policy,
their involvement,

00:41:41.740 --> 00:41:44.760
and the exercise
of that foreign policy

00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:49.460
and the disaster that it’s
brought to parts of the world.

00:41:49.460 --> 00:41:52.040
AMY GOODMAN: John Shipton
and Gabriel Shipton,

00:41:52.040 --> 00:41:54.440
I’d like to thank you
so much for being with us.

00:41:54.980 --> 00:41:57.640
You are on this tour
across the United States,

00:41:57.640 --> 00:41:59.750
brought here
by the Courage Foundation,

00:41:59.750 --> 00:42:04.450
arrived in Miami,
doing events here in New York,

00:42:04.450 --> 00:42:06.160
in Philadelphia, D.C.,
Boston,

00:42:06.160 --> 00:42:09.630
Columbus, Chicago, Milwaukee,
as you travel the country.

00:42:10.230 --> 00:42:11.850
Next up, Philly today.

00:42:11.850 --> 00:42:15.130
Thanks so much for spending
this time with us.

00:42:15.130 --> 00:42:18.280
John Shipton is the father
of Julian Assange;

00:42:18.280 --> 00:42:21.470
Gabriel Shipton, a filmmaker
and Julian’s brother.

00:42:22.080 --> 00:42:25.480
This is Democracy Now!,
democracynow.org,

00:42:25.480 --> 00:42:27.230
The Quarantine Report.

00:42:27.230 --> 00:42:31.900
When we come back, we talk
about Germany apologizing

00:42:31.900 --> 00:42:35.680
for its role in the first
genocide of the 20th century

00:42:35.680 --> 00:42:38.670
in its former colony
now known as Namibia.

00:42:38.670 --> 00:42:40.700
But descendants are saying

00:42:40.700 --> 00:42:43.190
that Germany’s offer
of development aid

00:42:43.190 --> 00:42:46.790
is a pittance and are calling on
the Namibian government

00:42:46.790 --> 00:42:48.490
to reject it.
Stay with

00:43:16.570 --> 00:43:18.270
us.

00:43:24.210 --> 00:43:25.520
AMY GOODMAN:
This is Democracy Now!

00:43:25.520 --> 00:43:27.790
I’m Amy Goodman, as we turn
to look at developments

00:43:27.790 --> 00:43:30.680
with another G7 country,
Germany,

00:43:31.200 --> 00:43:33.470
which recently apologized
for its role

00:43:33.470 --> 00:43:36.170
in the first genocide
of the 20th century,

00:43:36.170 --> 00:43:38.150
which took place
in its former colony

00:43:38.150 --> 00:43:40.810
known as German
South West Africa,

00:43:40.810 --> 00:43:45.370
now the country of Namibia.
Between 1904 and 1908,

00:43:45.370 --> 00:43:50.150
German colonizers killed
tens of thousands of Ovaherero

00:43:50.150 --> 00:43:52.590
and Nama people in Namibia.

00:43:52.590 --> 00:43:56.700
Last month, for the first time,
German Foreign Minister Heiko

00:43:56.700 --> 00:44:01.610
Maas officially described
the massacre as genocide

00:44:01.610 --> 00:44:05.830
and outlined an offer of more
than $1.34 billion

00:44:05.830 --> 00:44:08.590
in development aid
to Namibia.

00:44:08.590 --> 00:44:12.140
HEIKO MAAS: [translated]

00:44:12.140 --> 00:44:13.990
Today we officially refer
to these events

00:44:13.990 --> 00:44:15.730
as what they were:
a genocide.

00:44:16.460 --> 00:44:19.720
We are therefore acknowledging
our historical responsibility.

00:44:19.720 --> 00:44:21.460
In the light
of Germany’s historical

00:44:21.460 --> 00:44:23.190
and moral responsibility,

00:44:23.190 --> 00:44:25.100
we will ask Namibia
and the descendants

00:44:25.100 --> 00:44:27.240
of the victims
for forgiveness.

00:44:27.240 --> 00:44:29.480
And as a gesture of recognition
of the immeasurable

00:44:29.480 --> 00:44:31.790
suffering that was inflicted
on the victims,

00:44:31.790 --> 00:44:33.390
we want to support Namibia

00:44:33.390 --> 00:44:34.810
and the descendants
of the victims

00:44:34.810 --> 00:44:38.290
with a substantial program
worth 1.1 billion euros

00:44:38.290 --> 00:44:40.290
aimed at reconstruction
and development.

00:44:41.020 --> 00:44:44.020
AMY GOODMAN:
The Namibian Parliament is set

00:44:44.020 --> 00:44:46.180
to vote soon
on Germany’s offer,

00:44:46.180 --> 00:44:50.060
which was not negotiated
with survivors of the genocide,

00:44:50.060 --> 00:44:53.030
and critics have described
as a pittance.

00:44:53.030 --> 00:44:55.330
This week,
Namibia’s prime minister,

00:44:55.330 --> 00:45:00.780
Saara Kuugongelwa-Amadhila,
opened a contentious session

00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:02.810
of Parliament
addressing the agreement.

00:45:02.810 --> 00:45:04.510
She spoke Tuesday.
PRIME MINISTER SAARA 

00:45:05.250 --> 00:45:06.750
KUUGONGELWA-AMADHILA:
Since this reparations amount

00:45:06.750 --> 00:45:08.000
was made public,

00:45:08.000 --> 00:45:11.300
concerns have been raised
that this amount is not enough

00:45:12.060 --> 00:45:15.880
and that it is unacceptable
to the affected communities

00:45:15.880 --> 00:45:17.580
and the Namibian people.

00:45:18.280 --> 00:45:20.080
AMY GOODMAN: Opposition
lawmakers spent

00:45:20.080 --> 00:45:23.270
the parliamentary session
denouncing the deal.

00:45:23.270 --> 00:45:25.840
This is Utaara Mootu
of the opposition

00:45:25.840 --> 00:45:28.000
Landless People’s
Movement Namibia.

00:45:29.260 --> 00:45:30.960
UTAARA MOOTU:
Honorable Prime Minister,

00:45:32.220 --> 00:45:35.650
never in my existence
as a millennial would I say

00:45:35.650 --> 00:45:37.530
that I’ll be looking
at a colonizer

00:45:37.530 --> 00:45:39.380
the way I’m looking
at you right now.

00:45:40.150 --> 00:45:42.780
You have betrayed us.
You have betrayed —

00:45:44.240 --> 00:45:45.960
SPEAKER:
Order. Order. Order.

00:45:46.550 --> 00:45:47.890
UTAARA MOOTU:
— the Namibian people.

00:45:47.890 --> 00:45:49.860
SPEAKER:
Order. Order. Order. Order.

00:45:49.860 --> 00:45:54.210
UTAARA MOOTU:
You have betrayed our country.

00:45:54.840 --> 00:45:58.470
You have betrayed our identity.
You have betrayed us!

00:45:58.470 --> 00:45:59.790
AMY GOODMAN:
In a minute,

00:45:59.790 --> 00:46:01.920
we’ll get response
from two Namibians.

00:46:01.920 --> 00:46:04.730
But first, this is part
of a BBC documentary

00:46:04.730 --> 00:46:09.340
about the genocide by historian
David Adetayo Olusoga.

00:46:09.930 --> 00:46:13.110
It’s titled Namibia:
Genocide and the Second Reich.

00:46:14.520 --> 00:46:16.160
SAMUEL WEST:
For a hundred years,

00:46:16.160 --> 00:46:18.880
what happened in Germany’s
long-lost African empire

00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:22.410
has been hidden.
It’s the story of a genocide

00:46:22.410 --> 00:46:25.700
that implicates the highest
level of the German government,

00:46:25.700 --> 00:46:29.070
the Army, and even some
of Germany’s biggest companies.

00:46:31.780 --> 00:46:34.730
But the ghosts of the Namibian
genocide have been reawoken.

00:46:36.310 --> 00:46:38.040
They’ve returned
to haunt modern,

00:46:38.040 --> 00:46:39.740
liberal, postwar Germany.

00:46:41.740 --> 00:46:43.320
And in doing so,
they’ve forced Germany

00:46:43.320 --> 00:46:45.320
to wake up
to a very uncomfortable fact:

00:46:46.570 --> 00:46:49.740
that the dark racial theories
that helped inspire the Nazis

00:46:50.370 --> 00:46:53.450
run much deeper into German
and European history

00:46:54.040 --> 00:46:55.890
than most people
want to acknowledge.

00:46:57.270 --> 00:46:59.550
BEN MADLEY: Soldiers received
specific orders

00:46:59.550 --> 00:47:01.830
which allowed them
to kill anyone.

00:47:01.830 --> 00:47:03.670
It was an overall strategy

00:47:03.670 --> 00:47:07.280
aimed at ethnically
cleansing the countryside

00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:09.530
to create Lebensraum
for German settlers.

00:47:12.130 --> 00:47:13.880
KATUUTIRE KAURA:
The whole process was genocidal,

00:47:13.880 --> 00:47:15.979
of the deliberate extermination
of Herero,

00:47:16.660 --> 00:47:19.480
the vernichtungsbefehl,
the destruction order.

00:47:20.510 --> 00:47:23.280
Many of members
of my own family died.

00:47:24.270 --> 00:47:25.520
AMY GOODMAN: That’s an excerpt

00:47:25.520 --> 00:47:27.600
from the BBC
documentary Namibia:

00:47:27.600 --> 00:47:29.290
Genocide and the Second Reich.

00:47:29.290 --> 00:47:31.270
For more, we’re joined
by two guests.

00:47:31.270 --> 00:47:32.910
Emsie Erastus is with us.

00:47:32.910 --> 00:47:35.750
She’s in Windhoek,
the capital of Namibia,

00:47:35.750 --> 00:47:39.000
which was the site of Germany’s
first mass concentration camp,

00:47:39.000 --> 00:47:41.500
where thousands of people
were beaten, worked

00:47:41.500 --> 00:47:46.500
and starved to death by the Army
of the Second Reich of Germany.

00:47:46.500 --> 00:47:53.220
Also with us is Nyoko Muvangua.
She is born of Ovaherero people

00:47:53.220 --> 00:47:55.550
and grew up in a village
in Namibia.

00:47:55.550 --> 00:47:57.240
Now a lawyer in South Africa,

00:47:57.240 --> 00:48:00.040
she’s joining us
from Johannesburg.

00:48:00.040 --> 00:48:02.180
I want to begin
with Nyoko Muvangua.

00:48:02.970 --> 00:48:08.490
Can you respond
to what Germany is offering

00:48:08.490 --> 00:48:11.350
and who they negotiated
this deal with?

00:48:14.890 --> 00:48:16.690
NYOKO MUVANGUA:
Good morning, afternoon,

00:48:16.690 --> 00:48:18.739
depending on where
you’re listening from.

00:48:20.470 --> 00:48:24.800
What Germany is offering is —
there are two answers to that.

00:48:24.800 --> 00:48:30.100
The first is over
a billion euros.

00:48:30.760 --> 00:48:33.070
And it is not reparations;
it is grants.

00:48:34.250 --> 00:48:39.730
And the amount was negotiated
with the Namibian government

00:48:39.730 --> 00:48:44.410
to the exclusion of both the
Ovaherero and the Nama people.

00:48:45.950 --> 00:48:47.940
We were just excluded
from all of this.

00:48:49.690 --> 00:48:52.140
So, that’s the immediate
answer to your question.

00:48:53.490 --> 00:48:55.400
AMY GOODMAN:
And what is your response

00:48:55.400 --> 00:48:59.970
to what they are offering?
And what are you demanding?

00:48:59.970 --> 00:49:04.390
You’re a descendant of those
who died in this genocide

00:49:04.390 --> 00:49:06.590
at the turn
of the 20th century,

00:49:06.590 --> 00:49:09.460
the first genocide
of the 20th century.

00:49:09.460 --> 00:49:13.330
And if you can tell us further?
Because I think, I daresay,

00:49:13.330 --> 00:49:15.110
certainly people
in the United States,

00:49:15.110 --> 00:49:18.270
most people,
have never heard of what place.

00:49:19.260 --> 00:49:20.550
NYOKO MUVANGUA: Sure.

00:49:20.550 --> 00:49:23.610
If I may, I wonder
whether I should commence,

00:49:23.610 --> 00:49:25.310
perhaps,
your question elsewhere.

00:49:26.800 --> 00:49:28.660
What I would like to start with

00:49:28.660 --> 00:49:33.510
is what happened
between 1904 and 1908,

00:49:34.190 --> 00:49:37.260
which would better inform
my response to your question.

00:49:38.450 --> 00:49:45.460
Between 1904 in 1908, Germany,
as a colonizer of Namibia,

00:49:45.460 --> 00:49:50.600
wanted land, Namibian land.
And the Ovaherero and Nama

00:49:50.600 --> 00:49:53.450
people at the time
were land and cattle owners.

00:49:54.170 --> 00:49:56.840
So Germany wanted them
to give up their land.

00:49:56.840 --> 00:50:01.040
When they resisted, the German
government, through a general,

00:50:01.040 --> 00:50:03.080
an Army general
called von Trotha,

00:50:03.080 --> 00:50:06.930
issued an extermination order,
which was specific.

00:50:06.930 --> 00:50:09.450
It said all the Ovaherero

00:50:09.450 --> 00:50:11.960
and all the Nama peoples
must be killed.

00:50:12.470 --> 00:50:14.150
There were
two extermination orders:

00:50:14.150 --> 00:50:16.280
one pertaining
to the Ovaherero

00:50:16.280 --> 00:50:18.660
and the other pertaining
to the Nama people.

00:50:18.660 --> 00:50:20.960
But what both
extermination orders said

00:50:20.960 --> 00:50:22.620
was both must be killed,

00:50:22.620 --> 00:50:26.330
spare no woman,
spare no child and spare no man.

00:50:27.120 --> 00:50:28.680
Either drive them
out of the country —

00:50:28.680 --> 00:50:31.290
they could go to Botswana,
Angola or southern Africa,

00:50:31.290 --> 00:50:33.820
but they must either die
or get out of Namibia.

00:50:34.950 --> 00:50:37.080
And that’s exactly
what happened.

00:50:37.080 --> 00:50:39.620
Our land got taken.
Our cattle got taken.

00:50:40.210 --> 00:50:42.810
Our people got killed.
Those that survived

00:50:42.810 --> 00:50:46.150
were forced out
of the country into Botswana,

00:50:46.150 --> 00:50:48.870
Angola, southern Africa
and elsewhere, as well.

00:50:49.480 --> 00:50:53.510
And those that were not able to
leave the country were enslaved.

00:50:53.510 --> 00:50:55.210
They were
in concentration camps.

00:50:55.210 --> 00:50:56.910
They were poisoned.

00:50:58.650 --> 00:51:01.910
So, that’s the background
of this.

00:51:01.910 --> 00:51:05.800
And I’m not sure about
the number of the Nama people

00:51:05.800 --> 00:51:08.500
who got killed,
but history tells me

00:51:08.500 --> 00:51:11.830
that 80% of the Ovaherero people
got killed during the genocide.

00:51:13.390 --> 00:51:18.100
Fast-forward to 2004.

00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:24.040
The then-German ambassador,
I believe, in Namibia said —

00:51:24.040 --> 00:51:26.940
this was in response to people,
to the Ovaherero and Nama

00:51:26.940 --> 00:51:29.850
people themselves
taking hold of their agency

00:51:29.850 --> 00:51:31.560
and saying what happened to us

00:51:31.560 --> 00:51:34.770
at the turn of the 20th century
was a genocide,

00:51:35.480 --> 00:51:38.460
we are entitled to reparations,
but, at the very least,

00:51:38.460 --> 00:51:40.660
from a human
being point of view,

00:51:40.660 --> 00:51:43.790
we are entitled
to an apology from Germany.

00:51:44.790 --> 00:51:47.860
The then-German official
stood up at a gathering

00:51:48.920 --> 00:51:53.270
in Namibia, in rural Namibia,
and purported to apologize.

00:51:53.270 --> 00:51:57.010
However, that got recanted
by the government,

00:51:57.010 --> 00:51:58.840
the German government,

00:51:58.840 --> 00:52:02.060
by saying that she had
no mandate to do that;

00:52:02.060 --> 00:52:04.380
the German government
was not apologizing.

00:52:05.520 --> 00:52:07.570
Reverse and fast-forward
a little bit.

00:52:08.320 --> 00:52:10.380
Concurrently,
there were proceedings

00:52:10.380 --> 00:52:15.110
instituted by the Ovaherero
and the Nama people in New York

00:52:15.660 --> 00:52:19.120
seeking the German government
to do two things.

00:52:19.120 --> 00:52:22.680
The one is to apologize
for the genocide,

00:52:22.680 --> 00:52:26.530
and the other, to repay,
to pay reparations.

00:52:27.390 --> 00:52:31.160
In court papers, the German
government took the attitude

00:52:31.870 --> 00:52:35.520
that whatever was committed
in Namibia

00:52:35.520 --> 00:52:39.200
between 1904 and 1908 was no —

00:52:39.200 --> 00:52:41.880
there was no crime
called a genocide,

00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:43.590
so whatever was committed
at the time

00:52:43.590 --> 00:52:44.960
could not have been a crime,

00:52:44.960 --> 00:52:49.190
because the crime of genocide
did not exist at the time.

00:52:49.190 --> 00:52:52.410
So, this has always
been Germany’s stance.

00:52:52.410 --> 00:52:54.790
So, it is, to me,
very interesting,

00:52:55.390 --> 00:53:03.260
the turn suddenly to call what
happened in 1904 a genocide.

00:53:03.260 --> 00:53:05.960
And I don’t understand
German myself,

00:53:06.680 --> 00:53:10.360
but when one listens carefully
to the translations

00:53:10.360 --> 00:53:11.790
of what Mr. Maas said,

00:53:11.790 --> 00:53:16.150
he seems to be saying
that what happened

00:53:16.150 --> 00:53:19.350
then should be called
what it would be today:

00:53:20.050 --> 00:53:22.520
a genocide.
There is a nuance there.

00:53:22.520 --> 00:53:25.110
But for present purposes,
it is sufficient to accept

00:53:25.110 --> 00:53:27.580
and take that Germany has called

00:53:27.580 --> 00:53:29.330
what it did in Namibia
at the time —

00:53:29.330 --> 00:53:30.770
is calling what it did
in Namibia

00:53:30.770 --> 00:53:35.400
at the time to the Ovaherero
and the Nama people a genocide.

00:53:36.550 --> 00:53:40.390
So, what then happens
when you accept wrongdoing?

00:53:41.210 --> 00:53:44.800
When you accept wrongdoing,
you do two things:

00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:49.960
You apologize,
and you repay, you atone.

00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:51.920
And that’s in
the form of reparations.

00:53:53.090 --> 00:53:58.080
Germany — sorry, in Namibia,
what happened in 2006 is,

00:53:58.080 --> 00:53:59.540
in Parliament,

00:53:59.540 --> 00:54:03.110
the then-paramount chief
of the Ovaherero people

00:54:03.110 --> 00:54:04.730
tabled a motion,

00:54:04.730 --> 00:54:07.290
which was unanimously
adopted in Parliament,

00:54:08.120 --> 00:54:12.200
that the Ovaherero and Nama
people would directly negotiate

00:54:12.200 --> 00:54:16.360
with Germany for reparations
and that the Namibian government

00:54:16.360 --> 00:54:19.770
would serve the role
of a mediator.

00:54:20.650 --> 00:54:22.350
It was more of
a supporting role.

00:54:23.740 --> 00:54:27.200
But then the Namibian
government turned away

00:54:27.200 --> 00:54:29.120
from that
resolution altogether,

00:54:29.770 --> 00:54:33.090
excluded the Ovaherero
and the Nama people,

00:54:33.090 --> 00:54:35.110
negotiated directly
with Germany.

00:54:35.740 --> 00:54:39.070
And that’s the result of what
you were asking me

00:54:39.070 --> 00:54:42.080
about earlier,
the grant or aid money

00:54:42.850 --> 00:54:46.970
and the very loose statement
by Mr. Maas

00:54:48.210 --> 00:54:49.970
in newspapers of the world.

00:54:49.970 --> 00:54:52.430
He has still —
Germany has still not approached

00:54:52.430 --> 00:54:53.950
the people directly,
by the way.

00:54:53.950 --> 00:54:56.170
This is something
that no one is talking about.

00:54:56.170 --> 00:54:59.850
We are hearing from newspapers,
from yourselves,

00:54:59.850 --> 00:55:02.460
that Germany is calling
this a genocide,

00:55:02.460 --> 00:55:03.820
Germany is apologizing.

00:55:03.820 --> 00:55:05.870
Germany has not come
to the Ovaherero people

00:55:05.870 --> 00:55:09.260
or the Nama people to apologize
at all for what happened.

00:55:09.260 --> 00:55:11.800
In fact, the minister
was supposed to come,

00:55:11.800 --> 00:55:13.870
and the president — or, yeah,
the minister was supposed to

00:55:13.870 --> 00:55:15.940
come to Namibia
a week or so ago,

00:55:16.510 --> 00:55:21.800
and canceled the trip because
of the uprising of the —

00:55:21.800 --> 00:55:24.480
not physically,
but the rejection of the offer

00:55:24.480 --> 00:55:27.620
by the Ovaherero
and the Nama people.

00:55:28.480 --> 00:55:31.190
So, you want to know
what my comment is on that.

00:55:31.190 --> 00:55:34.700
My comment is that what was
offered is an absolute insult.

00:55:35.330 --> 00:55:39.380
It’s an insult because
it had nothing to do with us.

00:55:39.890 --> 00:55:43.110
Our names are being used
in circumstances

00:55:43.110 --> 00:55:45.520
where what is really going
on between the German

00:55:45.520 --> 00:55:48.220
and the Namibian government
has nothing to do with us.

00:55:48.760 --> 00:55:53.210
And one wonders whether
the Namibian government

00:55:53.210 --> 00:55:55.960
and the German government
are negotiating as equals.

00:55:56.660 --> 00:55:58.260
I shudder to think not.

00:55:58.260 --> 00:56:00.170
They are not negotiating
as equals.

00:56:00.900 --> 00:56:06.610
And it was also interesting that
when the announcement was made,

00:56:07.150 --> 00:56:09.850
the Namibian government
was caught off guard.

00:56:09.850 --> 00:56:12.730
It didn’t realize that Germany
was going to announce

00:56:12.730 --> 00:56:16.110
to the world that it had
offered this grant money

00:56:16.800 --> 00:56:19.070
and purported to apologize
to the Ovaherero —

00:56:19.070 --> 00:56:22.480
or, to the Namibians, I suppose,
to use Germany’s language.

00:56:22.480 --> 00:56:23.860
AMY GOODMAN:
Nyoko, I wanted to bring

00:56:23.860 --> 00:56:25.900
Emsie Erastus
into this conversation,

00:56:25.900 --> 00:56:28.160
who’s in the capital
of Namibia right now,

00:56:28.160 --> 00:56:29.570
who’s in Windhoek,

00:56:29.570 --> 00:56:33.310
a researcher on
decolonization and technology.

00:56:34.090 --> 00:56:37.220
Emsie, you wrote a piece
for the BBC headlined

00:56:37.220 --> 00:56:41.180
"Why Germany’s Namibia
genocide apology is not enough."

00:56:41.990 --> 00:56:44.960
In it, you say Germany
"needs to come to terms

00:56:44.960 --> 00:56:47.680
with the origins of a racialised
view of the world,

00:56:47.680 --> 00:56:49.910
placing Western authorities
at the top

00:56:49.910 --> 00:56:51.740
and Africans at the bottom."

00:56:51.740 --> 00:56:54.320
Can you give your reaction
to what has been offered

00:56:54.320 --> 00:56:56.970
and what you see needs
to be done at this point?

00:56:56.970 --> 00:56:58.670
We have just about a minute.

00:57:01.160 --> 00:57:04.430
EMSIE ERASTUS: Well, I wanted
to start off with what advocate

00:57:04.430 --> 00:57:07.270
was saying and a clip
that you played,

00:57:07.900 --> 00:57:12.960
and sort of tied in with what
the German foreign minister,

00:57:14.080 --> 00:57:16.970
Maas, said in his apology.

00:57:18.170 --> 00:57:22.730
What advocate Nyoko said
is that she questioned

00:57:22.730 --> 00:57:25.880
the relationship
between Namibia and Germany,

00:57:25.880 --> 00:57:28.730
and questions
if it’s that of equals.

00:57:29.400 --> 00:57:31.250
And what we are seeing
in reparations,

00:57:31.250 --> 00:57:34.020
especially with the Ovaherero
and Nama genocide,

00:57:34.020 --> 00:57:36.550
is that, first of all,
when Namibia —

00:57:36.550 --> 00:57:40.550
when Germany came to Namibia,
or South West Africa,

00:57:40.550 --> 00:57:43.220
whatever they deemed
to call it at that time,

00:57:43.220 --> 00:57:47.300
they did not come to have
a friendship or a relationship.

00:57:47.300 --> 00:57:49.990
The mission was clear
at the Berlin Conference.

00:57:49.990 --> 00:57:52.490
It was to —
the scramble for Africa —

00:57:52.490 --> 00:57:54.660
and some scholars call it
the "rape of Africa/" —

00:57:54.660 --> 00:57:57.820
it was to come and take
the resources of Africa.

00:57:57.820 --> 00:58:00.300
So, at the very —
from the very beginning,

00:58:00.300 --> 00:58:02.060
Germany needs to acknowledge

00:58:02.060 --> 00:58:06.450
the relationship that did exist
during the genocide,

00:58:06.450 --> 00:58:09.300
when the genocide took place.
It was not a friendly —

00:58:10.270 --> 00:58:12.310
it was not
a friendly relationship.

00:58:12.310 --> 00:58:14.010
It was not one of equals.

00:58:14.750 --> 00:58:16.490
When we look
at what history tells us,

00:58:16.490 --> 00:58:20.150
it’s that people who were
in the land at that time,

00:58:20.150 --> 00:58:24.990
they were deemed to be savages,
barbaric tribes.

00:58:24.990 --> 00:58:27.990
Still to this day, the narrative
is still going on in the media

00:58:27.990 --> 00:58:31.820
where we call the Ovaherero
and Nama communities as tribes,

00:58:31.820 --> 00:58:37.040
and we call the German settlers
former colonial powers

00:58:37.040 --> 00:58:38.710
or something like that.
You know?

00:58:38.710 --> 00:58:41.050
So, already,
when we are just speaking —

00:58:41.050 --> 00:58:42.330
AMY GOODMAN:
We have five seconds.

00:58:42.330 --> 00:58:43.580
EMSIE ERASTUS: Yeah.
When we are just speaking,

00:58:43.580 --> 00:58:46.050
there is no equality in that.

00:58:46.050 --> 00:58:48.610
And that, already, we should
start to question that,

00:58:48.610 --> 00:58:50.530
before we even go to any —

00:58:50.530 --> 00:58:53.400
discuss anything when it comes
to Germany’s apology.

00:58:53.400 --> 00:58:55.110
AMY GOODMAN: And we will
come back to this issue.

00:58:55.110 --> 00:58:58.820
I want to thank you, Emsie
Erastus and Nyoko Muvangua.

00:58:58.820 --> 00:59:01.380
Thank you. I’m Amy Goodman.
Thanks for joining us.