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“Fascism or Genocide” Author Ross Barkan on NYC Mayoral Race, Mamdani’s Rise, Socialism & More

StoryOctober 23, 2025
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New York mayoral candidates held their final debate Wednesday before the November 4 election, with early voting beginning Saturday. Democratic nominee and front-runner Zohran Mamdani faced off against Republican Curtis Sliwa and former New York Governor Andrew Cuomo, running as an independent after losing the primary to Mamdani. While the debate itself is unlikely to have much impact, the fact that a pro-Palestine democratic socialist is leading the race is very significant, says writer Ross Barkan. Assuming he wins, “Zohran Mamdani is going to run one of the great and massive and important cities in the world. And all eyes are going to be on him,” Barkan says. His latest book is Fascism or Genocide: How a Decade of Political Disorder Broke American Politics.

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This is a rush transcript. Copy may not be in its final form.

AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: The final debate of New York City’s closely watched mayoral race took place Wednesday night. Democratic socialist state Assemblyman Zohran Mamdani is the Democratic nominee. If he wins, he would become the city’s first Muslim mayor. He faced off with Republican candidate Curtis Sliwa and independent candidate and former Governor Andrew Cuomo, who resigned in disgrace in 2021. This is part of one exchange, starting with Sliwa.

CURTIS SLIWA: My adversaries have decided to bump chests with President Trump to prove who’s more macho. You can’t beat Trump. He holds most of the cards. He’s already cut federal funding for Medicaid, for the SNAP program, and is threatening to cut funds for NYCHA. So, if you’re all of a sudden going to get adversarial, you’re going to lose. And who gets hurt? The people of New York City. With Trump, it’s always the art of the deal.

ERROL LOUIS: And Mr. Cuomo?

ANDREW CUOMO: Yeah, the difference on this question is I’ve actually lived it, and I’ve done it with President Trump over many years, through the most difficult situation that this country has gone through: COVID plus. You’re wrong. You’re going to have to confront President Trump. He is hyperaggressive, and he is going to overstep his bounds, and you are going to have to confront him. And you can beat him. I confronted him, and I have beaten him. He was going to quarantine New York during COVID, and I stopped him. He was going to cut aid to federal programs, and I stopped him.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: We first just heard from the Republican candidate for mayor, and then we heard from Donald Trump’s puppet himself, Andrew Cuomo. You could turn on TV any day of the week, and you will hear Donald Trump share that his pick for mayor is Andrew Cuomo. And he wants Andrew Cuomo to be the mayor, not because it will be good for New Yorkers, but because it will be good for him.

Look, Donald Trump ran on three promises: He ran on creating the single largest deportation force in American history, he ran on going after his political enemies, and he ran on lowering the cost of living. If he wants to talk to me about the third piece of that agenda, I will always be ready and willing. But if he wants to talk about how to pursue the first and second piece of that agenda at the expense of New Yorkers, I will fight him every single step of the way.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: That was Zohran Mamdani, Andrew Cuomo and Curtis Sliwa at last night’s mayoral debate. Later in the debate, Mamdani confronted Cuomo about his record.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: Mr. Cuomo, in 2021, 13 different women who worked in your administration credibly accused you of sexual harassment. Since then, you have spent more than $20 million in taxpayer funds to defend yourself, all while describing these allegations as entirely political. You have even gone so far as to legally go after these women. One of those women, Charlotte Bennett, is here in the audience this evening. You sought to access her private gynecological records. She cannot speak up for herself because you lodged a defamation case against her. I, however, can speak. What do you say to the 13 women that you sexually harassed?

ANDREW CUOMO: If you — if you want to be in government, then you have to be serious and mature. There were allegations of sexual harassment. They were then — went to five district attorneys, fully litigated for four years. The cases were dropped, right? You know that is a fact. So, everything you just stated, you just said, was a misstatement, which we’re accustomed to from — 

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: Everything that I stated was a misstatement?

ANDREW CUOMO: Yes, because the cases — the cases were dropped. That’s what happened.

AMY GOODMAN: So, that’s Andrew Cuomo answering Zohran Mamdani. This is another excerpt from the debate. This begins with former Governor Cuomo.

ANDREW CUOMO: There is a tension between the city and the state. The city is arguing for its budgets. The state is saying no. And the city has been getting screwed by the state. And that has to change, and the city has to be doing better.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: We just had a former governor say in his own words that the city has been getting screwed by the state. Who was leading the state? It was you.

ANDREW CUOMO: Governor Hochul.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: You were leading the state for 10 years —

ANDREW CUOMO: Governor Hochul.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: — screwing the city.

ANDREW CUOMO: No.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: You cut homelessness funding.

ANDREW CUOMO: You, as a legislator —

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: You cut funding for the MTA.

ANDREW CUOMO: You, as a legislator —

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: You did all of these things, my friend.

ERROL LOUIS: Guys, guys, guys, all right.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: That’s you.

ANDREW CUOMO: That’s the past four years.

ERROL LOUIS: Guys, guys, stop, stop, stop.

ANDREW CUOMO: It’s the past four years.

AMY GOODMAN: All of this comes as early voting is set to begin Saturday, ahead of the November 4th mayoral election.

In the final weeks, there’s been growing pressure for Republican Curtis Sliwa to drop out. On Wednesday, Sliwa abruptly quit his job at WABC Radio during a live interview on the station, complaining that billionaire owner John Catsimatidis was backing Cuomo, along with other billionaires who have claimed they would leave New York if taxed too highly under Mamdani. Catsimatidis owns Gristedes and D’Agostino’s, the grocery chains.

For more, we’re joined by journalist Ross Barkan, who is following all of this very closely. He’s a columnist for New York Magazine, wrote a book on Cuomo titled The Prince: Andrew Cuomo, Coronavirus and the Fall of New York. His most recent book, Fascism or Genocide: How a Decade of Political Disorder Broke American Politics.

Ross, welcome back to Democracy Now! Talk about the significance of this last debate, and also, you know, the significance of this race for the country, with a democratic socialist in the lead.

ROSS BARKAN: I’d say that the race is more significant than the debate. The debate was very interesting, but I don’t think it will change all that much. I mean, time is running out for the race dynamics to shift. Zohran Mamdani holds a significant lead. Andrew Cuomo is in second. Curtis Sliwa, the Republican, is in third. He’s not dropping out. Early voting is coming up very soon.

I expect Mamdani to win. It’s not guaranteed. Nothing is guaranteed in life, but he’s got a great shot. And for the country and for New York City, it’s quite significant. I mean, this is the first time an unabashedly left-wing socialist politician will get to hold a major executive office. Bernie Sanders was the mayor of Burlington, Vermont. Burlington, Vermont, is the size of a few neighborhoods in Brooklyn. Zohran Mamdani is going to run one of the great and massive and important cities in the world, and all eyes are going to be on him. He’s going to be controlling the largest police department in America, the largest education department. And he will be a leader. Whether he chooses to be a national figure or not, he is one. And so, much will be riding on next year and beyond, assuming he wins in a few weeks.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Ross, you mentioned that, of course, New York City has the largest police department in the U.S. And yesterday, during the debate, Zohran confirmed that he’s asked Eric Adams appointee Jessica Tisch to stay on as the New York Police Department’s commissioner. If you could talk about the importance of him having done that?

ROSS BARKAN: Well, it’s a fascinating choice. It has — brings great promise and peril, as well. So, Jessica Tisch is popular with the city’s business and finance elite. She’s popular with lot of media members and editorial boards. She’s someone who’s had success in battling corruption in the police department. She was appointed last year after Eric Adams was indicted. And she is someone who has never walked the beat. She’s Harvard-educated. She’s a billionaire. And she’s politically a moderate. She does not share Zohran Mamdani’s politics.

But for him, having a commissioner like that can ease some of the fears among the many voters and donors who are wary of a 34-year-old socialist running the city, and it might allow him to maneuver on the rest of his agenda. He ran on an affordability agenda. He wants to deliver on a rent freeze, on free buses, on a massive child care expansion. And having Tisch there, though she’s handling police, could be a way for him to maneuver with those other policy aims, because she will have at least placated momentarily some of his opponents.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Ross, you mentioned, of course, he has run entirely on an agenda of affordability, which includes a rent freeze. But this issue came up last night, too: the Rent Guidelines Board. How does that work? Who appoints its members? And how could it make it absolutely impossible for Zohran to go ahead with any kind of rent freeze?

ROSS BARKAN: So, the Rent Guidelines Board determines the rent increases, or lack thereof, of the city’s rent-stabilized units, of which there are a lot. There’s roughly a million or so, at least a million tenants in rent-stabilized units. And the mayor appoints the members of the board. They do serve terms. There’s talk of Eric Adams trying to stack the board as he leaves, to make it harder for Mamdani in his first year to fill vacancies.

But ultimately, it’s a bit like the Supreme Court, where you get the appointments. And you don’t need the confirmation of any Senate or any body like that, and it’s very easy for a mayor to shape a board. Bill de Blasio got three rent freezes out of his Rent Guidelines Board. Eric Adams has hiked the rent on rent-stabilized apartments every single year as mayor. Michael Bloomberg hiked the rent quite dramatically. So, a mayor has a lot of power to do this. Of all of his campaign promises, this is one that, in four years, is quite deliverable.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to go back to last night’s debate. This is Zohran Mamdani.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: You will hear from Andrew Cuomo about his experience, as if the issue is that we don’t know about it. The issue is that we have all experienced your experience. The issue is that we experienced you taking a $5 million book deal while you sent seniors to their deaths in nursing homes. The issue — 

ERROL LOUIS: OK, all right, all right, all right —

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: — is that we experienced you cutting funding for the MTA

ERROL LOUIS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ANDREW CUOMO: Yeah.

ERROL LOUIS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: — to send money to upstate ski resorts.

ERROL LOUIS: Yeah, yeah.

ANDREW CUOMO: Yeah.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: The issue is that we saw — 

ANDREW CUOMO: Whatever experience —

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: — you give $959 million in tax breaks to Elon Musk.

ERROL LOUIS: We’re going to — we’re going to — 

ANDREW CUOMO: The only — 

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: The issue is your experience.

ANDREW CUOMO: No, the only thing — the issue is — the issue is you have no experience.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI: That’s what I [inaudible] about you.

ANDREW CUOMO: You’ve accomplished nothing. You haven’t proposed a bill on anything. And you still haven’t said if you’ll close Rikers in 2027.

ERROL LOUIS: Candidate — candidate, stop, stop, stop, stop.

AMY GOODMAN: So, that was Cuomo and Zohran Mamdani. Comment on that, Ross Barkan. But also, your latest book is called Fascism or Genocide: How a Decade of Political Disorder Broke American Politics. You’re not addressing directly the Mamdani candidacy, but what does his ascendancy say about the fracture within the Democratic Party nationally?

ROSS BARKAN: It is the sort of campaign that a few years ago would have been considered quite far-fetched, because Mamdani is pro-Palestine, and openly pro-Palestine, and that was taboo in the Democratic Party until, you know, maybe a year ago, maybe even less. And you saw — I write a lot about the “uncommitted” movement last year that challenged Joe Biden, and the unrest, the DNC. And Mamdani is a continuation of that, and he is an apotheosis, in some ways. You have a movement that was quite small and marginalized and had very few supporters at all, and now you have the possible future mayor of New York City who’s not afraid to say “Free Palestine” or support BDS or criticize Netanyahu, and has even called for Netanyahu’s arrest. So, that is significant.

Andrew Cuomo is an Israel hawk. He’s always been one. So, Mamdani and Cuomo are completely on opposite sides on this issue. And Mamdani won a dramatic primary victory. He won by a lot. And if the polls are to be believed, and I think they are — if anything, it might be undercounting Mamdani’s vote, especially his youth supporters — he’s going to win again. So, that’s a very big deal for the pro-Palestine side in this fight.

AMY GOODMAN: And it’s been remarkable that the two leading Democratic national figures, Hakeem Jeffries — right? — represents the Democrats in the House of Representatives — and Chuck Schumer, have not endorsed Mamdani. Of course, he’s gotten a lot of national endorsements, from senators and congressmembers, as well. But Hakeem Jeffries has not yet?

ROSS BARKAN: No, they have not. Even the governor of New York, Kathy Hochul, who’s a centrist and very pro-Israel and has openly said she disagrees with Mamdani, has endorsed him. So, it’s not clear at this point what the calculus truly is, other than maybe they feel by endorsing Mamdani, they could hurt Democrats in swing districts. It seems like they’re overthinking it a bit. They’re certainly both very pro-Israel. You know, Schumer and Jeffries both, one would character as Israel hawks. So, Mamdani’s politics make them uncomfortable. They’re both from New York City, from Brooklyn, so they are ground zero for all this. But I think there are a lot of rank-and-file Democrats who are wondering why the leaders of the party can’t endorse the Democratic nominee. Certainly if Mamdani wins by a significant margin, they do look weak.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: We want to go to another topic now, Ross. You have a new article for New York Magazine headlined “Trump Is Courting Catastrophe in Venezuela.” And we want to ask you about this latest news we had in headlines. The Pentagon confirmed Wednesday that the U.S. launched strikes against two vessels in the Pacific off the coast of Colombia, killing five people, and claimed without evidence that the boats were carrying drugs. This follows seven strikes on alleged drug boats in the Caribbean before. So, if you could comment on that?

ROSS BARKAN: It’s quite dangerous and quite disturbing, and it runs counter to the image that Trump now is trying to propagate as being a peace president for working towards a ceasefire, achieving one, a tentative one at least, a peace agreement in the Middle East between Hamas and Israel, which I actually think Trump deserves some praise for. I have said that.

But Venezuela here, you have a situation where the United States seems fairly committed to attempting regime change. And whatever — you know, however horrific Maduro is — and I do believe he’s a dictator who has really immiserated his people — the idea that you can go into Venezuela, take out the government and peacefully initiate any kind of regime change is an absolute fantasy. I mean, this would be like Iraq or Afghanistan or Libya, but in some ways a lot worse. I mean, you have organized militaries and paramilitaries, and the country’s politics are quite complex.

And you have Trump and Rubio and a lot of these, you know, MAGA types just playing with fire in a very real way. And it is dangerous. And we are, I fear, sleepwalking towards catastrophe. I hope Trump pulls back like with Iran — he did not push it further. But you don’t know. And that’s the concerning thing now. You’re killing people extrajudiciously, and you’re talking about throwing out a leader of a country. We did that in Libya. We did it in Iraq. It did not end well. And this will not end well.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re going to have to leave it there. And, of course, he’s also attacking Colombian boats and killing Colombians, as well. Ross Barkan, journalist, author and columnist for New York Magazine. His latest book, Fascism or Genocide: How a Decade of Political Disorder Broke American Politics. That does it for our show. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh, for Democracy Now!

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