AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org.

We turn now to the Pulitzer Prize-winning, two-time Grammy-winning multi-instrumentalist Rhiannon Giddens. In 2023, she won the Pulitzer Prize for Music for her opera Omar about Omar ibn Said, a Muslim scholar in Africa who was sold into slavery in the 1800s. Rhiannon has had a remarkable career with her time with The Carolina Chocolate Drops, an old-time Black string band, to her work as a musical consultant on Ryan Coogler’s landmark film Sinners. Rhiannon Giddens recently launched the Biscuits & Banjos Foundation, which celebrates the African diaspora’s role in shaping American identity and culture through music, literature, food and community. Rhiannon Giddens’ new album is out today, Hope Is the Thing with Feathers.

On Thursday, we sat down together in our studio, and Rhiannon performed her song “Wish in Vain” with Dirk Powell.

RHIANNON GIDDENS AND DIRK POWELL: [performing “Wish in Vain”]

I wish I were the evening star
I wish, I wish, I wish in vain
For then I’d guide you from afar
To join me in this sad refrain

I wish I were the evening star
I wish, I wish, I wish in vain
For then I’d guide you from afar
To join me in this sad refrain

AMY GOODMAN: After they performed, I spoke to Rhiannon Giddens.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about what inspired you to do Hope Is the Thing with Feathers?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, I was in a hotel room on tour somewhere. I’m not sure where. But I was like on my computer, and I was looking through stuff, and somehow that poem popped up, you know, as things do on the internet. And, you know, I know a little bit about Emily Dickinson. I’ve read her stuff. And I’d read that poem years ago. And, you know, Alice Randall did a song inspired by that poem, using the first line. And, you know, so, it’s in the — it was in the zeitgeist. But I kind of read it almost for the first time again, and I was really struck by it. And this melody just kind of downloaded into my brain as I sat there, and I just kind of put it into my phone, and sort of it developed into the song that it is. And I just thought this is — it just felt like the song for the moment. I don’t know. It just — it just felt right.

AMY GOODMAN: And “Wish in Vain,” that you’ve just performed in the studio, what was the inspiration for it? Can you talk about the world we’re living in now, the world refugee crisis?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Oh yeah. It’s really hard to know what to do. You know, as an artist, as a musician, I feel really grateful to be able to use the art that I was given to try to deal with these emotionally huge and complex issues that have been a part of humanity for generations, for millennia, right? The idea of having to move from one place to another under no fault of your own, whether it’s environmental disaster, whether it’s nationalism, or whether it’s, you know, all of these things that are happening all over the world.

But at the center of it are human beings, and we all miss and love the same things. You know, we all miss each other. We love each other. We love our food. We love our music. You know, we have the same loves and hates. And I think part of the job of folk music, folk music idiom, is to connect those things emotionally to each other, because, like, that’s really the only way forward, is to recognize ourselves in that other person. So, that’s just thinking about, like: If I was in that situation, what would I be thinking? You know, like, what would I — I’d be missing my family. I’d be missing my friends. I’d be missing — you know, like, will I ever see you again? You know, will I ever get to talk to you again? Will I ever hear my language again? You know, all of those things.

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about where you grew up, as you talk about the importance of place and people being forced out of their places. Talk about the importance of North Carolina.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah, I’m from North Carolina. I was born and raised there. Like, I was just on Finding Your Roots, and, like, you know, a lot of my roots are North Carolina for a long time. You know, it’s kind of amazing how many strands of the braid that makes up me are North Carolina. Heavy North Carolina.

AMY GOODMAN: What are your roots, going way, way back?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I don’t know. I mean, like, I’ve got DNA, whatever. But in terms of like paperwork, like, it kind of stops, you know, in the early 1800s, late 1700s. And, you know, for a lot of Black families, there’s always that wall, the slavery wall, you know? And I have some really interesting, you know, things that have shown a light on different strands of my family, which I feel really lucky, through that show. But I just am North Carolina to the bone and the South to the bone. If it’s not North Carolina, it’s South Carolina, or it’s Virginia, or it’s Georgia, you know.

And so, that’s kind of been something for me that because I’m a mixed person — you know, I’m Black and white mixed — and we are constantly challenged as to who we are in the world, because people want to put us in a box, because that’s the way we’ve set up our society, right? Race is a way to enforce class so that the wealth continues to flow to the top, right? So, it’s very destabilizing as a person to continually be asked, like, “What are you? What are you? What are you?” And so, I discovered, as an adult, I’m a North Carolinian. Place. You know? Place and roots and family and, you know, your experience in a place, that’s really what we’re talking about.

AMY GOODMAN: We have high schools coming through all the time, colleges, kids watching the show. How did you get involved with music way back?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I just sang with my family. You know, just I would have heard a lot of different music, and I sang with my sister, I sang with my dad. My mom brought a lot of different music into the house. And it was never a career. It was just part of the fabric of my life, my aural wallpaper, you know. And it wasn’t until I was 17 that I thought about making it perhaps into a career.

But the thing about music — and this is what I — when I talk to students, you know, talk to music students or even people who want to get into music, even adults, you know, I’m like, “You have to want to do music because you want to do music. Now, if you can parlay that into a career, great, but know that that’s going to take some — you know, that’s going to take some doing, and it’s going to take some compromise. But if you just want to do music, do music.” And I think we conflate it with the idea of, like, you shouldn’t do music unless you’re going to do it professionally, which I think is totally — I have a lot of — I have a lot of theories as to why that is, but I really stand on the do music if you want to do music.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you remember when you first picked up the banjo?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Oh, sure. I was 20, 24. I mean, I was in my twenties. So, I didn’t play anything when I was a kid. That’s why I always say it’s never too late. I just picked up the concertina in February of this year, and I’m obsessed. I love it. You know, there’s something about making new connections in your brain, you know, when you pick up a new instrument and starting over and being really crappy at something, that, like, I think is really good for us as human beings, you know?

AMY GOODMAN: Talk about collaborating with your sister with the song “Walk with Me.”

RHIANNON GIDDENS: My sister is my first — you know, kind of my first everything. She’s been there for me since I was born. She’s seven years older. And through all the ups and downs of childhood and family strife and all that stuff, we’ve been rocks for each other. And she’s the first person I sang with and has shaped how I think about even singing harmony. So, to have that so prominently highlighted on the record feels really good, you know. And it’s also sibling harmony, which is very special. And it’s also a tradition in North Carolina of sibling gospel harmony, you know, that we are also pulling from.

RHIANNON GIDDENS AND LALENJA HARRINGTON: [performing “Walk with Me”]

Walk with me, Oh Lord
Walk with me
While I’m on this tedious journey

RHIANNON GIDDENS: You know, Fannie Lou Hamer is part of the story of that song. And so, these things —

AMY GOODMAN: Tell us about Fannie Lou Hamer.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, Fannie Lou Hamer was an amazing activist, a woman who, like, lived her life, lived her convictions in her life and, you know, really didn’t get her flowers in her lifetime. You know what I mean? Like, and it just — it just makes me so distraught thinking about, like, what that woman went through, you know? But —

AMY GOODMAN: Can you tell us what she went through?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, I mean, like, just in trying to get rights for her people, just, you know, coming from such a hard background and just being just completely laser-focused on what she was trying to do, while her body is taking all of this abuse, like physical abuse but also the emotional abuse of how she had to go through, walk through life, the weight that that life, particularly when she was alive, the weight and the tear that that does on Black bodies. And just for her to have to go through all that and to not really be able to see, you know, the — well, I don’t even know where we are right now. I mean, it’s really hard to talk about the civil rights movement and to think about where we are right now, I’m going to be honest with you, you know, because — what they went through! You know, what Fannie Lou Hamer went through. Like, she was, like, beat, and her life, just so that we could vote, you know?

AMY GOODMAN: Beat by prison guards in jail.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah, absolutely. And, like, was trying to do something for her people, you know? And, like, the selflessness of that. And, like, here we are. Like, where are — like, it’s just — I can’t even really be articulate about it, because it’s just so distressing to think about what folks went through, and here we are with our voting rights being challenged and, you know, the whole system being destabilized kind of day by day by day. And it’s just like: What was it for? You know, if we don’t figure out a way to stop what’s happening, I don’t know. I don’t know. But what it does, when I think about what’s happening now, is, boy, it just puts a whole 'nother light on what those folks were doing and the strength that they had. You know? And we just have to figure out how to draw from that and find that again in this fractured landscape. It makes it hard, but, anyway, sorry, I'm just —

AMY GOODMAN: I mean, you talk about finding yourself in others. You talk about collaborating with your sister in this album, also all your collaborations, like Pura Fé with the song “Going Home.” What do these collaborations mean to you? And talk about “Going Home.”

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Collaboration, for me, is everything, you know? It really is. It’s like I’m not interested in doing stuff by myself. I am always interested in, like, what I can’t do, you can do, and what you can’t do, I can do, and so, therefore, when we put our things together, right? So, all of my projects are collaborations. That’s just how I work. And so, I love to highlight other artists and what songs they’re writing and how — you know, what they’re thinking about.

And, of course, “Going Home” is all about being in North Carolina and the threads that exist in that state. And, you know, Pura Fé is a friend of mine, and she’s a wonderful songwriter and spirit, you know. And so, it just felt great to have her. And I sing with Charly Lowry on that track, who’s from North Carolina.

So, it’s just a lot of — a lot of localness. You know, we’ve lost our regional flavor. You know, there’s so much global this and that, and all the downtowns look the same, and all this kind of stuff. You know, I’m overgeneralizing, but, you know, there’s an idea of, like, we’re from this place, and this place has this kind of sound and flavor, I mean, and this place has this kind of sound. And it’s like one’s not better than the other; they’re just different. So, I’m leaning into that. I’m leaning into, you know, I’m not American — I am, but I’m North Carolinian, and that means something.

AMY GOODMAN: Hope Is the Thing with Feathers is the name of the album. Can you talk about the album art, the six-by-six-foot patchwork quilt, and the symbolism of a patchwork quilt, and then the photograph that it’s based on of you?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah, I — again, talking about collaborations, you know, everything that’s about the album artwork is a collaboration, from the original photograph by Ebru Yildiz. And I’ve worked with her multiple times before. She’s an incredible photographer. So, that was the photograph that was picked by the artist, Uzoma Anyanwu, and we gave him like a selection of photos, and he chose that one. And then he made this incredible piece of art, you know? It’s kind of a quilt-like fabric piece that he did, you know, slowly. The video for “Hope Is the Thing with Feathers” is actually a time-lapse video of him making it, so you can see how big it is, the amount of work that went into it.

And I love the idea of patchwork quilt, because it’s really like that’s what American music is. And, like, when you look at his artwork, it’s incredible. Like, you know, seeing it through the screen doesn’t do it justice, you know. It looks really beautiful on the CD cover, but when you see the actual artwork, all of a — you kind of step — you get close to it, and you see all these different — you know, there’s like a kitten over here, there’s like stripes over here, there’s — and then you step back, and it snaps into this picture, you know? And what I love about that is that that’s American music. When you kind of get really close, you can identify this thread and this thread and this thread, and then when you just step back and listen to it, you hear this, like, cohesive, beautiful thing that is — the sum is greater than the — the whole is greater than the sum of its parts, right? It is — it becomes another thing, but it is made up of all these other — these threads, you know? So, it’s a nice metaphor. And also, I love artist to artist. Like, you know, there’s three artists involved in that, which I love.

AMY GOODMAN: What’s the Biscuits & Banjos Foundation that you’ve launched?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Biscuits & Banjos is a festival that I started a couple years ago and is the idea — and we’ve turned it into a foundation so we can keep the work going. It’s the idea that there’s this cultural excavation that’s going on in music, but it’s also going on in foodways, you know? Like, where do we find — where we’ve been erased, you know, where do we find narratives that have been told that aren’t quite right, and how do we — how do we fix that?

And so, I’ve seen — you know, I’m very into food. During the pandemic, I had to learn how to make biscuits, because I was, like, locked in Ireland, and I was like, “I can’t get a biscuit here. I got to learn how to make them myself.” And then I got obsessed with the whole process and the history of biscuits and how they’re different from scones and all that kind of stuff. And so, I started thinking about that and reading these cookbooks. And I was like, “This is kind of something I feel like we’re all doing. So, instead of just, you know, a food festival or music festival, let’s combine them, and we can draw strength from each other and, like, see the shapes of the stories are the same.” You know? Because what do we bring with us when we move from one place to another? Music, food. You know? And so, you can see the history of people in their food and in their music.

And so, it just was an opportunity to put those two together, and it was just really a beautiful festival. Hopefully, we can do it again. But until we can, this foundation is a place where if people want to be involved in the building of that community, if they want to donate money, if they want to just be a part of this, that’s the place that they can go.

AMY GOODMAN: How are scones different from biscuits?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, how long do you have? But it’s — I’ll say, very shortly, it’s in the amount — the ratio of ingredients. So, there’s usually less butter. And it’s also in the technique. So, biscuits, you fold. Scones, you just kind of pat and cut.

AMY GOODMAN: So, as we talk about narratives that are not often told, if you — you know, Dolly Parton just died. And if you talk about country music in America, I think people mainly think, or some people mainly think, white, a white world. But you’re bringing the diaspora into this. You’re redefining it all. Talk about that.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Well, me and a lot of people, right? Like, I draw from a lot of academic folks’ work who are digging in the archives and doing these things. But I think the thing to remember is that whiteness is a construct as much as Blackness is, right? Whiteness was in response to the creation of Blackness to make a permanent underclass. So, what whiteness does is it flattens the differences between all the different European immigrants who came over. And, like, not all of them were seen in the same light, right? I mean, obviously, we know about the Irish. People don’t even know. Like, it was really bad, you know, in terms of where they sat in the hierarchy. But they were always still going to be eventually above the lowest, right? But in the beginning, they weren’t. So, it’s the idea of what you trade to step into whiteness.

And so, like, for me, the history of country music is very interesting, because it is a very diverse history. But what happens is that the recording industry flattens a lot of things, as well, and it supports sort of a white supremacist narrative, all of these things happening all at the same time. But before recording industry, it is like really an interesting story of what goes into it and how much commercialism actually has shaped our perspective and what we get of country music. Commercialism is wrapped up in there. And there are all of these things that come out of folk music and come out of working-class music, and then, you know, white supremacy and commercialism turn things and then create this false narrative.

But when you get into the weeds, and you start looking at the music, and you’re like — you know, because, like, if you’re talking about Irish people, are we talking about the Scots who were planted in the top of Ireland and then moved over, but then they have a mixture of both cultures? Are you talking about Irish Catholics, who were — you know what I mean? — like, who were coming over from the famine? Are you talking about — you know, there’s so many different people that are engaged in this. And then there’s the whole Black string bands, Black fiddlers, Black musicians, who were all over the South and all over the North, as well. So, it’s a very complicated history.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about The Carolina Chocolate Drops — 

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — where you came out of?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah, Carolina Chocolate Drops was a kind of an attempt to remind people that the Black string band was a really big deal. It’s like it’s a part of all of the history up until the recording industry, you know, when we’re talking about American cultural history, going back to the Caribbean in the 1600s. Like, this is a long history of Black people playing fiddles and banjos, but, like, really being expected to be the community musicians, whether they were enslaved or whether they were not. But, like, you know, it’s not to say that non-Black people weren’t playing the fiddle and stuff — they were — but the the position they held in different communities, particularly, say, North Carolina, the Black string bands were playing all of the functions. You know, they played the plantation balls. They played the political rallies. They played the dances that went all night. They played all of these things. So, there’s a particular kind of cultural power that they held. And so, that was just very much sort of erased, you know, which is kind of incredible when you look at the history. They were everywhere.

So, The Carolina Chocolate Drops was a Black string band that I started with Dom Flemons and Justin Robinson back in 2006 as an attempt to, number one, take Joe Thompson’s music. He was like the last Black fiddler of the old tradition that we know of. You know, by the time we came along, he was it, and he was holding down the fort, last person in his family to do this music. And so, we learned his — you know, we kind of received his lineage, which is kind of incredible. So we took his music and also the history of Black string bands kind of out into the world for as long as we could.

AMY GOODMAN: You served as a consultant for Sinners —

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — Ryan Coogler’s film. You also have worked with Ken Burns on Country Music and also The American Revolution. Can you talk about your experience with these projects? We interviewed Ryan so far back, when he was doing his first film — 

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: — and to see his work today with Sinners.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah, I mean, I just — I just drop what I have. Like, I just go, “This is what I know.” And people do what they will with it, you know. And I understand that people are — you know, particularly when you’re talking about, like, mainstream movies, like, there’s a lot of moving parts. So, I just try to do what I’m hired to do, which is just to say, “Here’s all I know: blah.” You know? And then they take what works for them.

You know, working with Ken Burns on The Revolutionary — and Johnny Gandelsman did the music for that, you know, was one of the organizers of the music for that — was kind of a dream come true, because, you know, we were talking late 1700s, and it’s like, “OK, who can give me a early banjo tune from the late 1700s?” I’m like, “Pick me!” You know, like, I’ve been waiting my whole career for this moment, you know. So, it was kind of amazing to get to, like, offer up some really historically, like, connected things that I could then play, because I’m — this is the work that I do. You know, it’s not a recreation; it’s like a living tune, you know?

AMY GOODMAN: Rhiannon Giddens, you talk about having this conversation today and coming back to the United States. I mean, you go back and forth, North Carolina, Ireland, where you also live. And it makes me think about what is happening right now as we speak, you know, the Ed Sheeran musical tour through the stadiums of the United States, all these bands and his own backup band. And now he has asked Macklemore not to be a part of the act, because he says “Free Palestine.” He sings a song called “Hind’s Hall” about Rajab Hind, a 5-year-old girl, who Israeli soldiers killed in Gaza along with many members of her family. I’m wondering, you coming from Ireland — you have Ed Sheeran, not only the musical acts he’s with have quit the tour, but his own backup band, the Irish folk band Beoga, and the Irish musician Aaron Rowe dropped out, as well. And Rowe said in a social media post, “As Irish people, we know all too well about genocide, forced famine and violent occupation. I cannot stand by and allow billionaires to use their position of power to silence the rightful voices of those who speak up against Israeli genocide and who highlight the savage murder of children.” Your thoughts?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: I mean, it’s been really interesting to watch the fallout. I’ve been really thinking a lot about celebrity and a lot about, like, multimillionaire musicians. And what does it all mean? You know, because I think we have a really unhealthy relationship with who we lionize and who we put out in the world. And I just think — this is a crossroads, right? I mean, because, like, Ed Sheeran is a guitar player. You know, he writes songs, and he’s a lovely musician, and I’m sure he’s a lovely person. And he’s, like, you know, contributed a lot to charity, and I’m sure he treats his people well. None of that is at issue here.

At issue for me is that when you hire somebody like Macklemore, who’s been very pro-Palestinian in his — I mean, this is not a surprise, right? It shouldn’t be a surprise. And when you hire Irish musicians, Ireland has been one of the only steadfast, like, Palestinian-informed countries, like, that I know of. You know, and, look, I’m also just a banjo player, but from what I see — and I’m like, to hire —

AMY GOODMAN: You’re not just a banjo player; you are a “just” banjo player.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Thank you. I like that. I’m going to get a shirt made. I’ll give you credit.

But I’m still just like, we’re — like, these people are not gods. You know what I mean? And they’re fallible human beings. And it’s like he hires all these Irish people and then Macklemore, and then is like — I don’t know. It’s just like, I don’t know what he was expecting. You know? So, this is the thing that really disturbs me, is, you know, as a musician, you have to think about what you’re doing in the world. And he has every right to do whatever he wants, and people will pile on as they will.

But I just — I really think that there’s two things. One, he can do whatever he wants, right? Doesn’t mean that we don’t take him to account for that. We have the right to take him to account for that, because that’s what being in the public eye means, you know? And you the benefits and the detractions from that. But, number two, OK, like, let’s talk about that. As a musician, I’m like — I’m very interested in that, because I’m like, “You have power there. Why are you not using that power?” Right? He’s folding. And I’m just like —

AMY GOODMAN: And folding to — let’s talk about Robert Kraft, who’s the owner of the New England Patriots, also Gillette Stadium. And he said he has organized a boycott of other stadium owners, so if Ed Sheeran wants to continue through his tour, Macklemore can’t be a part of it.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Right. And so, that’s the pressure that’s on Ed Sheeran. And, like, I sympathize with him. He’s got all these people who have their jobs depending on these stadium shows.

AMY GOODMAN: Though many of them have now quit.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Right. And I understood that that was a difficult decision. But for me, it wasn’t a difficult decision. You know what I mean? Like, you’re a multimillionaire.

But anyway, look, the second thing is, is just what you said. I’m like, OK, Ed Sheeran, whatever, but if it doesn’t direct the attention to Robert Kraft and if it doesn’t direct the attention to the people who actually have the power who are doing these things, that’s — then it’s for naught. You know, so, like, we have to — we have to be informed. We have to inform ourselves and stop expecting celebrities to do it for us. Like, we have to go, “What do we stand for?” What are we putting our money towards? What are we putting our time towards?” The entertainment complex is massive. It’s too big. There’s too many people out there. Like, you know what I’m saying? Like, put me out of a job. Pick up a banjo, play some music, write your own song, not to perform for other people, but to just like process the emotions that are going on right now. People need art to do that, but they need to do it themselves. And, like, be inspired by somebody who’s a really good songwriter or whatever — I’m not saying that. There’s room for both.

AMY GOODMAN: In 2024, you led the Silkroad Ensemble in releasing Palestinian Lullabies.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Mm-hmm, yeah. It’s like, you know, one of our members is Lebanese. Like, you know, being in a group that includes somebody from the Congo — right? — that includes somebody from the Armenian diaspora — right? — that includes somebody from India, like, being in a group where people are bringing the histories with them and telling personal stories, telling what this means — you know what I mean? — puts it all in a different light. And you’re just like, “If I can’t do something like this, you know, what am I doing? What am I doing?” Like, we now do “Wein a Ramallah” in our show, you know, and I’ve interpolated — inter — whatever. I’ve put in — I’ve written verses about Tulsa, Oklahoma, and Wilmington, 1898, into.

And it’s like, if we don’t pull our struggles together, if we don’t connect the struggles together and the overall larger patterns of extraction, the larger patterns of colonialism, the larger patterns of empire, the larger patterns of massive moneymaking — if we don’t connect those dots between the struggles, we’re never going to get anywhere. So, for me, that’s what music is for. That’s what art is for. And that’s why we have to make music with people from different backgrounds, because then we have that conversation, and then it turns into a song, and then it turns into a performance. I mean, you know.

AMY GOODMAN: And then there’s AI. There’s artificial intelligence.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah, it’s hard. It’s hard being an artist these days. And I’m like privileged beyond belief. Like, I’m not complaining, 'cause, like, I'm not getting a bomb dropped on my head. So, like, I’m OK. But, like, if we want to look at what we’re doing to our society with AI, like, look, we all use AI, you know, translating your thing or whatever. Like, it doesn’t — it’s not to say it can’t be a tool that we can use for good. But generative AI used in the place of making art, that’s not making art, right? It’s like the process should be the point. And with generative AI, the process is not the point. And I think that’s — you know, that’s the wrong path to go down.

AMY GOODMAN: So, where can people hear this album that you’re releasing now, Hope Is the Thing with Feathers?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: You can find them everywhere you find music. It’s a Nonesuch record. If you don’t want to buy the physical copy, you can go to Bandcamp and purchase a digital. It’s out there, vinyl, CDs.

AMY GOODMAN: And are you going to be performing?

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah, there’s a tour in February 2027, and I’m doing a European tour shortly. And I’m always out there performing. But yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: And as you talk about what’s happening today, the final question is about President Trump saying he may well rip down the JFK Center for the Performing Arts, which many take as a metaphor for the performing arts, for the role of arts in our culture.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: Yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: Unless he gets his name inscribed in the marble in the building.

RHIANNON GIDDENS: The new normal is insane. You know what I mean? Like, just consider what we’re talking about, you know, the tantrums of a person who has unbelievable amounts of power. I don’t really know — it’s really hard to articulate, but I will say it’s also tied to generative AI, because generative AI is controllable, and artists are not. Just look at the Macklemore thing, right? Why people want generative AI to make the music is because they can make it do whatever they want. And this is tied to taking the Kennedy Center down, because, like, artists, our job — and this is — you know, there is no apolitical stances, right? Because artists’ job — now, I’m not talking about — you know, I think part of the problem is that we have a commercial music industry where music is a commodified product, you know, and artists survive in that framework, but in spite of, not because of. Right? So, you sell what you gotta sell in order to make the statement that you’re trying to make, right?

But I think that artists’ job is to push on, you know, these fissures in society, is to make people uncomfortable, is to make people think about what they’re doing, is to make people think, “Who are we morally?” Right? So, people who are in power only want the things that are going to keep them in power and that are going to not challenge them. So, artists are going to challenge them, because that’s what we do.

So, yeah, let’s take it down. Take down the Kennedy Center. Take down, you know — what, 40% of new music on Spotify is AI? Like, you see, it’s happening. It’s happening. People don’t even know that they’re listing to AI music, you know? Like, the Grammys have — like, they’re not making a stand on how much of music is AI. We have to label — it should be labeled, it should be regulated, it should be — you know, so people can choose whether they opt in to AI or not. But this idea, this myth of inevitability — “Well, it’s going to happen anyway, so we’ve got to get in front of it” — no! Nobody agreed on this. Just the people with the money and the power agreed on this. You know what I mean? So, we deserve the opportunity to say, “No.”

AMY GOODMAN: Rhiannon Giddens, Pulitzer Prize- and Grammy-winning artist. Her new album is out today, Hope Is the Thing with Feathers. This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.