AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman. We’re broadcasting from the U.N. climate summit, COP30, from the Brazilian city of Belém, the gateway to the Amazon.

Among the most controversial topics here is artificial intelligence, AI. Climate groups are warning of the increasing environmental impacts of AI data centers. Meanwhile, AI advocates say artificial intelligence could help the world address the climate crisis.

For more, we’re joined by Jean Su, Energy Justice director at the Center for Biological Diversity, the co-author of a report the center published ahead of COP30 titled “Data Crunch: How the AI Boom Threatens to Entrench Fossil Fuels and Compromise Climate Goals.”

Jean, welcome to Democracy Now!

JEAN SU: Thanks for having me.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain.

JEAN SU: AI right now is being touted as some type of solution to the climate emergency. Even here at the COP, there have been over two dozen panels talking about how wonderful it is and how it will help with balancing the electricity grid, which is totally valid. But what is one concern, deep concern, about AI is its severe climate consequences, and no one in the official negotiations are talking about that right now.

AMY GOODMAN: So, you come from the United States.

JEAN SU: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: The U.S. is the biggest emitter of carbon emissions from AI, making up 45% of the world’s emissions. Some people might be saying right now, “What does AI have to do with carbon emissions?”

JEAN SU: Oh, wow. So, AI is an incredible computing power. It is going to consume — and it has consumed — far more electricity than current Google searches or current algorithms. What’s happening in the U.S. in particular is that we are ground zero for data center development. Around 90% of all computing goes through the United States. The scary thing about AI is that it is being primarily powered by fracked gas, and increasingly coal, right now in the U.S. The Trump administration has issued a ton of executive orders asking permitting reform and allowing kind of rubber stamping of data centers to get them connected to as much dirty energy as possible to fuel it.

AMY GOODMAN: So, I was just talking to Casey Camp-Horinek. She is a representative of the Ponca Nation in Oklahoma. And they’ve been fighting a Google data center in Stillwater — 

JEAN SU: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — Oklahoma, talking to folks in Memphis, Tennessee — 

JEAN SU: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — taking on data centers.

JEAN SU: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: Explain, though, how it works. I mean, some need what? They’re talking about smart nukes, a nuclear power plant to fuel just a data center?

JEAN SU: Yes. So, there are nuclear power plants that are being erected for data centers. New fossil gas plants are being built out for data centers. And these are such energy-guzzling entities that it can actually take up as much electricity as 100,000 homes in the United States. So, this is a whole new set of electricity need in the U.S. that we need to address immediately.

The really scary part about what’s happening in the U.S. is that communities are just being so surprised, and they’re being completely caught flat-footed about data centers. They’re using everything they have to convince their town leaders to say no, no to the incredible energy costs, but also no to the incredible water, as well.

AMY GOODMAN: Can renewables be used to power data centers?

JEAN SU: Renewables can be used to power data centers, and that is one thing we are advocating for, even in the UNFCCC process. But I think what’s really important is that that is not what is happening on the ground. Utilities make money off of building out more expensive energy, so that means they are inclined to build out fossil gas plants, because that is what helps their bottom line.

AMY GOODMAN: A recent study by the UNFCCC Technology Mechanism found AI can also be a powerful tool for developing countries that are most vulnerable to the climate crisis through developing more effective early warning systems, which is so important. Of course, people will say, “Jean, what are you talking about? Medicine has advanced so far with AI.” So, what do you see? What is your vision of the future? Do you see it including AI? And how?

JEAN SU: I think the future can include the AI that actually benefits the public interest. However, that is a foil and a red herring for the vast majority of AI right now, which is actually being used on defense and militarization, things that do not necessarily benefit the public interest. What we need to do is empower communities and countries, especially in the Global South, to ask what is the public benefit that they are supposed to get from AI, and weigh it very carefully against the severe cost to their climate, to their electricity prices and to their water.

AMY GOODMAN: Does the COP30 text address AI?

JEAN SU: Not yet. And our goal here is to actually make that happen. So, this year, we have connected with global civil society organizations around the world to actually come together and, from the ground up, build a map of what AI and the fossil fuel industry is seeing from the top down in terms of their strategy. We are working on coordinated efforts on the ground and to come back to COP next year with an ask, a clear ask, of countries must discuss and disclose their data center emissions and commit to building them with renewable energy that is sustainable, and not with false solutions like CCS.

AMY GOODMAN: A question I’ve been putting to a lot of our guests is the significance of President Trump deciding — this is for the first time a U.S. delegation, high-level delegation, would not attend COP. What is the significance of it and him calling climate change a hoax, a green hoax, a scam?

JEAN SU: Yeah, the significance of it is that President Trump is in the world to peddle his wares. He is peddling natural gas, fracked gas, his coal. That is his vision of his future, and it’s entirely about profiteering.

What’s so important about this COP is that people should celebrate the fact that that obstruction is not here, and pass as fast as possible mechanisms like a fossil fuel phaseout roadmap, where the U.S. is not here, but they could be bound by it later, when they join. And that’s the importance of this COP. We actually need a game plan to phase out fossil fuels in a funded manner. And if we can pass that here, the U.S., as the number one historic emitter and as one of the wealthiest countries in the world, will have to abide by it when it comes back.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you so much for being with us. Jean Su is the Energy Justice director at the Center for Biological Diversity. We’ll link to their new report, “Data Crunch: How the AI Boom Threatens to Entrench Fossil Fuels and Compromise Climate Goals.”

Democracy Now! is produced with Mike Burke, Renée Feltz, Deena Guzder, Messiah Rhodes. I want to thank Nermeen Shaikh, María Taracena, Denis Moynihan, Sam Alcoff, Charina Nadura, who are our Belém team on the ground, and also Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Safwat Nazzal. Our executive director is Julie Crosby. Thank you also to Becca Staley and to our whole team on the ground in New York, Jon Randolph and Paul Powell and Miguel Nogueira. I’m Amy Goodman, from Belém, Brazil.