We speak with moral philosopher Susan Neiman, author of the new book Call It Evil: Understanding the Trump Era. Neiman argues that evil — far from being an outdated religious concept — is a vital way to understand how injustice works in the world. The Trump administration’s abusive policies have been aided by a general reluctance to call them out as evil, part of how people are “brainwashed … by the idea that morality is for losers, suckers, fools,” she says.

“People worry that it’s polarizing, that it’s demonizing, and by that worry, we leave the strongest weapons we have in the language in the hands of people who are least responsible in using them,” says Neiman.