AMY GOODMAN: And you’re listening to Democracy Now! The United States has provided millions of dollars to the Colombian military, they have said, to fight the drug war. But human rights groups say that U.S. aid has actually supported paramilitary units that have engaged in a dirty war against dissidents. These right-wing death squads have used murder, torture and disappearances to terrorize Colombian citizens suspected of being sympathetic to rebels. Human rights groups are calling on the United States to suspend hundreds of millions of dollars’ worth of Black Hawk helicopters, machine guns and ammunition to the Colombian military.

We’re joined right now by two people, by Joost Hiltermann, who is director of the Human Rights Watch Arms Project, and Carlos Salinas, government program officer for Latin America and the Caribbean at Amnesty International.

Why don’t we start with Joost Hiltermann? Your report came out yesterday, has been condemned by the Colombian government. Tell us what you found.

JOOST HILTERMANN: Well, we found two important things. One, that an important reorganization of the military intelligence network took place in 1991, whereby the Colombian military went into an alliance with paramilitary groups, which, as we all know, have been engaged in killings and disappearances in Colombia for years. And secondly, this reorganization was in part recommended by the United States government, which had sent a team of the Department of Defense and the CIA to Colombia to propose certain changes in the military intelligence structure. So, we know that the United States government is implicated in this new arrangement, which led to the creation of a number of killer networks in Colombia, which have led since then to a number of — to a number of murders.

AMY GOODMAN: And, Carlos Salinas of Amnesty International, we’re not just talking about paramilitary groups — right? — but paramilitary groups connected with the Colombian military.

CARLOS SALINAS: Absolutely. The Colombian military has a long track record of gross human rights violations, and as equally as long has been the U.S. involvement with funding, with training, with assisting the Colombian military. So, I think what human rights groups right now are trying to ensure is that the United States government ensure that it inform everyone of who is getting the assistance, so that we can monitor that assistance, and also making sure that it does not continue to be complicit in all these murders.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think the U.S. government is well aware of what is going on and how the money and weapons and training are being used?

CARLOS SALINAS: I think so. Back in 1994, Amnesty International called on the U.S. government to provide further details on its assistance program to Colombia. As a result of that, the United States did provide a list, or produce a list, of different battalions and units that had been identified by Amnesty as being implicated in gross violations, and detailed the amount of lethal aid these units had gotten. Now, it would be interesting to see the other list — that is, the list of all the units in Colombia that had received U.S. assistance — to do a cross-check and a cross-reference with all of the violations that they may be implicated in.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, we’re going to have to break, and then, when we come back, I want to find out about some of the specific cases that the paramilitary and Colombian military are implicated in in Colombia, as we talk about the so-called drug war that the U.S. is waging around the world. We’re then going to go to Peter Dale Scott, an interview Larry Bensky does with him, to talk about cocaine politics here at home. You’re listening to Democracy Now! We’ll be back in 60 seconds.

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AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman. Let’s hear what the State Department had to say about the Human Rights Watch report that came out yesterday on the Colombia killer networks and their relationship to the United States.

REPORTER: It says the State Department officials now acknowledge they could not track the aid send to Colombia.

NICHOLAS BURNS: No, I don’t think that’s the case at all. I think we have a program in place, and we follow up vigorously. Whether it’s possible to, you know, follow up on how every particular item is used on any given day, I mean, that probably gets us a bit beyond our capabilities. But if any — if a helicopter, for instance, is used in a counterinsurgency manner as opposed to a counternarcotics manner, and that is a pattern, we pick that up. We take action. Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: And that is Nick Burns, the State Department spokesperson. Joost Hiltermann, director of the Human Rights Watch Arms Project, what’s your response to his comment?

JOOST HILTERMANN: Well, I think the United States government is quite well aware of what is happening with the military aid that goes to Colombia. First of all, all the counternarcotics operations are carried out by the police, or the vast majority of them. And the aid going to those units, we have no problems with. But a lot of military-use military aid is going to Colombian military units, which clearly have been linked to paramilitary groups and which themselves have also committed abuses. Now, U.S. and use-monitoring reports acknowledge that military aid has gone to 24 military units, which it is — have widely reported to have used torture and death threats and have killed people. So, it is rather incredible for the State Department now to declare that they have no knowledge of these matters.

AMY GOODMAN: I noticed that at the beginning of your report, before your summary and recommendations, you talk about a human rights activist that helped you with putting together this report and documenting the U.S. relationship with the Colombian military. His name was Wilson Jose Caceres. What happened to him? And who was he?

JOOST HILTERMANN: Well, he disappeared. This was in 1995. He was a local activist. He had also — he was involved in political activities, and he was also involved in human rights activities. And he was on his bicycle one day, and he was — at one point, he just disappeared. He was no longer seen. But a paramilitary group was known to have been in that area at that time, and we have no further news about him. But he was there, in part — on that day, he was arranging meetings for our researchers.

AMY GOODMAN: Carlos Salinas of Amnesty International, a typical story?

CARLOS SALINAS: Well, a typical story could be back in 1993, when the Artillery Battalion of the 13th Brigade entered the home of a leftist activist, went in, killed him, killed his children, killed an infant, and then later tried to pass it off as a clash with guerrillas.

But I’d also like to get back to the point about Mr. Burns. One, if they can’t track the assistance, and we all know what record the Colombian military has, maybe they shouldn’t be giving this assistance, because they’re obviously not being very responsible about how they’re using taxpayer money. I don’t think people in the United States, people anywhere, want to see their money being used to murder innocent people, such as this human rights activist, such as this family that I just mentioned.

Second point, Mr. Burns, better get with the program, because the Congress just passed a law that prohibits counternarcotics assistance going to any unit implicated in violations. If he can’t track it, then he’s probably risking breaking the law. And I don’t think that would be a great position for the spokesperson in the State Department to be in.

AMY GOODMAN: In the reports that have come out, both by Amnesty and Human Rights Watch, in the last weeks, it’s pointed out that the Colombian military, that works with these paramilitaries, the people there are not only not disciplined, but they are promoted.

CARLOS SALINAS: Correct. And, in fact, just last week, we have two reports of this collaboration with the military and the paramilitary. One is a case of a meeting on the 15th of November where a paramilitary group is drawing up a death list with a unit of the Colombian military called the 40 heroes of the Korean War. And then, just on the 18th of November, there’s an arrival of a paramilitary group to a place where they go around and kill people. In the meantime, it turns out that their arrival had been announced by Counterguerrilla Battalion No. 4, the so-called Granaderos Battalion. So, here, just last week alone, you have two very specific cases of this collusion and very tight collaboration between specific military units with their paramilitary allies. But you have to remember, while the paramilitaries are doing a lot of the killings, so are the Colombian military.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re talking about Colombia’s killer networks and their relationship to the United States. And then we’re going to be speaking with Peter Dale Scott. Larry Bensky will be talking to him about cocaine politics here at home. Last week on Democracy Now!, we talked with a Special Forces master sergeant, and it’s rare that you get these people to speak in public about what they do. But he talked about the clear political agenda that the Special Forces were carrying out on behalf of the State Department and the U.S. government. Joost Hiltermann, in your report that you’ve put out, that Human Rights Watch has put out, you talk about the U.S. military and those Special Forces groups that have gone down to Colombia. What are they doing there? How many are there?

JOOST HILTERMANN: Well, ostensibly, they are there for junior leadership training of Colombian commissioned and noncommissioned army officers. In 1996, there were two deployments of 52 U.S. Army Special Forces officers. And in 1997, further deployments are expected of even larger number of officers. What exactly they are involved in, we do not know, but we do note that a lot of the training that takes place takes place in towns that are known to be paramilitary centers, so at army bases at those centers, and also army bases where Colombian army units are based that are not at all involved in the counternarcotic struggle. So, we have very grave suspicions about what the activities of these special advisers, in fact, are.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me end on this question. If the United States knows well what is going on, what is being done with the money, the training, the weapons that they pour into Colombia, what is the U.S.'s agenda there? We'll begin with Joost.

JOOST HILTERMANN: Well, I think you ought to pose that question to the State Department. But I think that there — well, let’s say that there is one excuse, which is that, in fact, the guerrillas are also involved in drug trafficking, and therefore, U.S. military aid is, in fact, going to the fight against drugs because of that.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s right. In fact, the Colombian government, in response to your report yesterday, said that you should instead be focusing on this unholy alliance between narcotraffickers and rebels.

JOOST HILTERMANN: Right. But that ignores the fact, of course, that a lot of the top paramilitary leaders themselves are also heavily involved in the drugs trade, and at a much higher level of production and trade than the guerrillas, which are just growing poppies out in the fields. But it’s the paramilitary leaders who are, in fact, involved in the trade to the United States. So, what the real U.S. interest is, again, you have to ask the U.S. government, but I suspect that it has something to do with supporting the Colombian government against insurgencies.

AMY GOODMAN: Carlos Salinas, do you share that view?

CARLOS SALINAS: Pretty much. I don’t think it’s any coincidence that the same year that the Berlin Wall crashed is the same year that the drug trafficker is declared the new public enemy number one. And what you have is sort of the same military system and military-to-military relationships continuing, but now shifting. Now it’s not anti-communism; now it’s anti-drug traffickers. So, I think that’s an element we need to keep in mind.

AMY GOODMAN: And is it really anti-drug traffickers?

CARLOS SALINAS: Well, that’s, I think, a big question, because I think the State Department is being disingenuous when they are saying the guerrillas equals the drug traffickers. I think if you’re going to talk about narcoguerrillas, you have to talk about narcoparamilitaries, narcomilitaries, narco-fill-in-your-name-here, because, as we all know, drug traffickers make alliances with anyone they can.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I’m sure people would like to get a copy of your reports, so why don’t we get some phone numbers. Well, let’s begin with Joost Hiltermann of Human Rights Watch.

JOOST HILTERMANN: To get a copy of our reports, please call 212-972-8400 in New York. Our publications department would be more than willing to send you a copy.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s 212-972-8400 for Human Rights Watch. Amnesty International?

CARLOS SALINAS: Our phone number is 202-544-0200, and ask for extension 235.

AMY GOODMAN: That’s 202-544-0200 extension 235. Carlos Salinas and Joost Hiltermann, thank you very much for being with us.

CARLOS SALINAS: Thank you.

JOOST HILTERMANN: Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: From Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.