And longtime civil rights activist Roger Wilkins has died at the age of 85. Born in Kansas City, Missouri, in 1932, Wilkins went on to serve as an official in both the Kennedy and Johnson administrations, including serving as an assistant United States attorney general. He was also a journalist, writing for both The New York Times and The Washington Post, and a professor of history at George Mason University for nearly 20 years. His uncle, Roy Wilkins, led the NAACP for more than two decades, from 1955 to 1977. This is Roger Wilkins speaking about the civil rights movement with fellow activist Julian Bond as part of the oral history project “Explorations in Black Leadership.”

Roger Wilkins: “Every fall, there was at least one violent, hideous outbreak in this evolving morality tale. And I remember, with Clinton, Tennessee, and a guy named Kasper blowing up stuff.”

Julian Bond: “Yes, yes, John Kasper.”

Roger Wilkins: “Right. There was, of course, Little Rock. There was Plaquemines Parish in—right outside New Orleans.”

Julian Bond: “A little town in Texas, a year before.”

Roger Wilkins: “Right. So, all of a sudden you’re energized, because there really was good and evil. And, of course, in there, in that period, you also had the Montgomery bus boycott and the emergence of Martin King. So, all of a sudden, instead of getting depressed, what you’re seeing is a morality tale in which black people are becoming energized.”

That was Roger Wilkins, speaking with fellow civil rights activist Julian Bond, who died in 2015. Wilkins died on Sunday in Kensington, Maryland, at the age of 85.