AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. We’re broadcasting at the U.N. climate summit — that’s COP30 — here in the Brazilian city of Belém, the gateway to the Amazon. I’m Amy Goodman, with Nermeen Shaikh.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: Today is the last scheduled day of COP30. As we go to air, the final text agreement has not yet been reached. Decisions are made by consensus at COPs, requiring agreement among 192 countries.

The biggest fight is over the exclusion of a roadmap to transition away from fossil fuels. Reportedly, Saudi Arabia, China, Russia and India are among those that rejected the roadmap, but more than 80 countries have joined a call to demand a roadmap be included.

AMY GOODMAN: To discuss all of this and more, we’re joined by Harjeet Singh, strategic adviser to the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty, founding director of Satat Sampada Climate Foundation, a social justice group. He’s also the global convener of the Fill the Loss and Damage Fund campaign, usually in New Delhi, India, joining us here from Belém.

In fact, yesterday, while people might not have realized, you were also a guest on the show, because you were right behind us with many other people protesting about loss and damage. If you can start off, in these last hours of the COP — and it’s our last broadcast directly from here in Brazil — what’s happened so far?

HARJEET SINGH: Well, we came to this COP to get a very concrete decision on just transitioning away from fossil fuels, to get a mechanism so that we can do it in a much more cooperative manner. We also wanted a very strong decision in the form of a roadmap to move away from fossil fuels.

And I want to remind everybody that two years ago in Dubai at COP28, we got a decision, for the first time after three decades, that the world has to transition away from fossil fuels — not that strong, didn’t mention phaseout of fossil fuels, but strong enough.

But for the last two years, nothing has happened. So, this COP, we wanted very strong language and a clear roadmap to move away from fossil fuels. And, of course, finance remains a massive issue. If we do not provide finance, the implementation will not happen.

AMY GOODMAN: What do you mean by finance? Why should richer countries give money to poorer countries?

HARJEET SINGH: When we talk about the climate crisis or the world that we are living in, which is 1.5 degrees Celsius warmer, and all the disasters and climate impacts that we see because of that, it’s developed countries who are responsible for putting disproportionate amount of greenhouse gases into the atmosphere. That’s the primary cause. And I’m talking about fossil fuels, coal, oil and gas. And that’s why it is such an important issue. So, the cumulative accumulation that we have seen of these greenhouse gases from fossil fuels are primarily from developed countries, so they are the ones responsible for the crisis, of course. Now most emissions come from developing countries, who need finance and technology, so that they don’t have the same fossil fuel-based development that the Western countries had over the last 200 years.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Harjeet, if you could talk about the fact — you’re from India. At the moment, nine out of 10 of the most polluted cities in the world are in South Asia, between India, Pakistan and Bangladesh. So, if you could talk about the, I mean, literally, lethal effects of this? In India, for example, now lung disease is the second leading cause of death, whereas just decades ago it was the eighth, number one. Number two, the fact that previously the most polluted cities in the world were not in South Asia, but in China. So, how did this happen in South Asia? And what did China do to alter its position?

HARJEET SINGH: Nermeen, there’s no doubt that the epicenter of pollution has shifted from East Asia to South Asia. China declared a war on pollution. And I would say it has largely won because of its top-down enforcement.

And when we look at South Asia, we are dealing with the same so-called developmental problems — very weak waste management, unregulated construction. We find a huge dependence on fossil fuels, coal, oil and gas. And because of lack of governance and resources, we are stuck with that model. And I must also mention that 83 out of 100 most polluted cities in the world happen to be in India. So we are dealing with a massive problem. It’s not just a Delhi problem or a Dhaka problem. All other so-called second-tier cities have similar issues.

So, we must declare a war on pollution, like China did. And for that, what we require is, of course, dealing with the waste management issues, moving away from fossil fuels, massive investment in public transport. And that has to be a revolution now, which we have not seen in India and in South Asia yet. We also need to promote electric mobility. Yes, we are making some strides, but a lot more is required to make that happen. And we are really lagging behind on waste management issues. So, what we need is a revolution that comes from the citizens, who need to also recognize that they have a role to play, but, more importantly, holding the politicians to account. The fact is, in India, its air pollution is still not a election issue. It’s still very caste-based and based on jobs and economy. Air pollution must become the most important election issue. Until that happens, we will not be able to make that shift.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Harjeet, if you could talk about — this is COP30. There have been 30 climate summits. Many people say now there’s no agreement reached. People are dissatisfied with whatever agreement will be reached. But what is the utility of these summits, especially for the countries most vulnerable to climate change?

HARJEET SINGH: Nermeen, this is the only place where we can get justice, however ineffective it has been, however slow it has been. Can we really rely on G7s and G20s, those large group of economies who are only focused on GDP and trade, but not really protecting environment and people? That’s why you need a space where we, as 200 nations who are almost equal — Bangladesh can challenge the European Union, and Malawi can challenge the U.S.

So, but the only difficulty — or, the main difficulty that we face here is everything happens on consensus. We have allowed polluters to take over this process and make it ineffective. I’m sure you have talked a lot about 1,600 fossil fuel lobbyists who are moving around, who have made this space ineffective. That’s what we have to challenge. We cannot discard the space, but what —

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think the fossil fuel lobbyists should be banned?

HARJEET SINGH: Absolutely, like we did in our fight against tobacco. WHO did not allow the tobacco industry to have a seat at the table. Why are we allowing the fossil fuel lobbyists to negotiate? It’s like inviting arsonists to tell us how to put out the fire.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, speaking of fires, yes, this place is just recovering from a fire yesterday, where everyone was evacuated. We’ll be broadcasting from New York on Monday, leaving Belém, Brazil, where we are today. Harjeet Singh, I want to thank you for being with us, strategic adviser to the Fossil Fuel Non-Proliferation Treaty.

That does it for our show. Special thanks to our local AP crew here at COP30 in Belém.

LUKE MAILANDER: Hi. My name is Luke, and I’m the technical director.

CARLOS VARGAS: Carlos Vargas, AP producer.

JULES GUÉPRATTE: Hello. I’m Jules, and I’m cameraman on this fantastic show.

DIEGO: I am Diego, AP camera.

PABLO: Hey. My name is Pablo, and I’m doing sound and technical support.

AMY GOODMAN: And special thanks also to Thayse Merces Oliveira Fernandes and to our Democracy Now! Belém team — Charina Nadura, Nermeen Shaikh, María Inés Taracena, Sam Alcoff and Denis Moynihan — and to our New York team — Mike Burke, Renée Feltz, Deena Guzder, Messiah Rhodes, Nicole Salazar, Sara Nasser, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Safwat Nazzal, our executive director Julie Crosby. I’m Amy Goodman. Special thanks to Nermeen Shaikh.