AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Pacifica Radio’s Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman, here with Juan González. And we’re broadcasting live from the Independent Media Center in downtown Philadelphia. Juan, one of the things I got a chance to do over the last few days is talk to a number of people. Among those people was Frank Sesno. He’s the vice president of news at CNN. And, Ed Herman, our guest, professor emeritus of the Wharton School at the University of Pennsylvania, I thought you might have some interesting things to say about his comments. This is Frank Sesno.

AMY GOODMAN: Mr. Sesno, can I ask you a question?

FRANK SESNO: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: I’m Amy Goodman from Pacific Radio. On the issue of the PSYOPs interns at CNN, how you felt about them?

FRANK SESNO: I really don’t want to [inaudible]. It’s not something I was…

AMY GOODMAN: But being vice president of news, what, were you consulted on it? Were you — you must have been — 

FRANK SESNO: [inaudible] I wasn’t [inaudible].

AMY GOODMAN: What do you feel about it, I mean, having psychological operations folks coming, working at CNN, in the newsroom?

FRANK SESNO: It’s not appropriate. We know it’s not appropriate, and that’s why it was stopped.

AMY GOODMAN: Why did it happen?

FRANK SESNO: Oversight. I don’t have the whole detail on all that. I really wasn’t part of it. But looking back and dissecting it, that’s why it was ended.

AMY GOODMAN: Is there any thought about doing some kind of reparations, having, for example, oh, people from peace groups working in the newsroom?

FRANK SESNO: Editorial, editorial independence. Shouldn’t be advocates or activists on any side, period.

AMY GOODMAN: Yet, since the PSYOPs interns already worked —

FRANK SESNO: Period.

AMY GOODMAN: It happened.

FRANK SESNO: Period. Period. Journalistic integrity is journalistic integrity. OK? Thanks.

AMY GOODMAN: “Journalistic integrity is journalistic integrity.” Frank Sesno saying, I suppose, that it was a mistake to have the PSYOPs interns in his newsroom. Again, PSYOPs being the psychological operations unit of the Army. Their motto is to win the hearts and minds of people. This is a scandal that broke a little while ago. Also, National Public Radio had PSYOPs interns in their newsroom, as well. And so, Ed Herman, I asked him if he would consider doing some reparations and having peace activists in the newsroom for a little while, representatives of peace groups, that they, too, could learn their way around the newsroom and make their contacts, so that they could, if they deliver coffee to someone next day, the next year call them up and say, “I’ve got a story for you.”

EDWARD HERMAN: What did he say to that, Amy? Did he —

AMY GOODMAN: You had a little trouble hearing the sound. He said, basically, he was concerned about journalistic integrity, when I asked him about peace activists. “Journalistic integrity, journalistic integrity.”

EDWARD HERMAN: Well, actually, it doesn’t seem that there’s much difference between taking these PSYOPs people and actually doing what CNN and the others do as a norm — in the normal course of events. I mean, if you look at — I just — I studied very closely CNN during the Kosovo War. And I was really impressed with the extent to which they would get almost exclusively officials. And they would ask these officials — never ask them any pressing questions. In fact, on balance, they would try to get them to be more violent. I mean, they were constantly asking them why we can’t have a ground war. I mean, they really joined the team. They even used the phrase “joined the team.” And, of course, you had the classic situation during that war where the chief foreign correspondent of CNN married the State Department’s chief PR officer right in the middle of the crisis. And the media didn’t consider that problematic. They didn’t raise any questions about conflict of interest. So, actually, it’s been an almost complete gearing of the government’s position and the official flow into the determination of what’s the agenda and what’s true, what’s false, what’s news. So, actually, having PSYOPs people there is really not much of a change from normality.