AMY GOODMAN: “The World Is a Masquerade,” Earth, Wind & Fire, here on Democracy Now! in Exile’s War and Peace Report, broadcasting just blocks from where the towers of the World Trade Center once stood. Yesterday, thousands of people gathered at ground zero to remember those who have died at that massive burial ground, more than 5,000 people believed dead underneath the rubble. I’m Amy Goodman.

With U.S. warplanes directly supporting Afghanistan’s rebel Northern Alliance, many Afghans are pleading for a viable plan for the installation of a new government in Kabul. According to U.S. officials, the current strikes against Afghanistan are part of an effort not only to topple the Taliban, but to install a new government in Afghanistan. Last week’s capture and execution of veteran mujahideen leader Abdul Haq, who many saw as a key figure to forge a broad alliance around the exiled King Zahir Shah if the Taliban is defeated, was widely seen as a major setback in this effort.

Most plans call for a broad-based new government, giving representation to all of Afghanistan’s ethnic group and major political parties, including the Taliban. But at the level of those who are talking about organizing a new government, no one has called for the participation of women, even though women almost certainly make up the majority of the adult Afghan population after many years of war. No one is, that is, except for members of the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan, who have been fighting for the rights of women there since before the Soviet invasion in 1979. According to RAWA, the restriction of Afghan women is a terrorist act.

On Friday, we spoke with Nasrine Gross, an Afghani human rights advocate who founded the group Negar. Today, we turn to Tahmeena Faryal. She is a spokesperson for the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan. We are broadcasting on the radio and on public access television. And for those who are watching, you will not see Tahmeena Faryal’s face. She travels and works in secret, has spent much of her time outside of Afghanistan, in Pakistan, and is here in the United States to talk about the situation in her country.

Welcome to The War and Peace Report.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us. Let’s start off by talking about what is being discussed right now if the U.S. succeeds in toppling the Taliban government.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Well, unfortunately, there are talks that the Northern Alliance will be in the future government of Afghanistan, even if that’s a coalition with the former king of Afghanistan. The people of Afghanistan are already terrified that if the Northern Alliance, the groups in the Northern Alliance, take power, they will repeat what they did in the past from ’92 to ’96, that were — that they committed horrible crimes against humanity and especially towards women.

AMY GOODMAN: And you’re talking about now that group that is being hailed by the U.S. press, the Northern Alliance.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Yes, it is the Northern Alliance that are now a bit favored to some of the countries to be the part of the future government in Afghanistan, forgetting their atrocities and crimes recorded by Human Rights Watch, by Amnesty International, by State Department itself, in organizations such as RAWA. And they would never be forgiven, and their atrocities would never be forgotten by the people of Afghanistan. And they do not want them to be on the future government again.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you talk about the history, for people to understand, the Taliban, the mujahideen, the Northern Alliance, all fighting together on the same side for a period against the Soviets, is that right?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: Although the Taliban was established only years ago, still the people within it.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: At the time of the Soviet invasion, we did not have the Taliban as a force or movement, although they were in Pakistani religious schools called madrassas. At that time, there were seven parties in Pakistan and eight parties in Iran, that we call all of them fundamentalist. And when we say fundamentalist, we mean those who are anti-civilization, anti-democracy, misogynist, dependent on foreign countries and terrorist in their nature. And that’s what these fundamentalists from the very beginning had, that that was the main reason that RAWA, from that beginning, in early ’80s, had warned the countries giving support to these different groups, that if one day they take the power in Afghanistan, they would commit the crimes that they did, and they would not only affect the people in Afghanistan, but also people in the region, especially Pakistan, the country which has been always their main — one of the main supporters, as well as affecting the world.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to play for you a comment of Nasrine Gross, the Afghani human rights activist who came in on Friday, recently having returned from a trip to northern Afghanistan, and this is what she had to say about the Northern Alliance,

NASINRE GROSS: The United Front, and also known as Northern Alliance, what we saw there, we saw probably 35 — 35 institutions of women. We saw women’s volunteer organizations. We saw women’s political organizations. We saw, of course, many, many girls’ high schools. We saw the TV station with the — with women working in it. We saw the orphanages where women were working. We saw the university where women are teaching and studying. We saw the hospitals where women are directors and doctors and nurses. What I saw was that none of the inalienable rights of women are canceled in the United Front. Women are totally free as to what to do.

There is some conservatism there, because they have been in a state of war for six years. You cannot imagine what this does to people, both good and bad. They they are constantly — even the children have to worry about when the next Taliban bomb will fall, when the next front will be opened, or when next their brothers or fathers are returning from the front, so that they could wash their clothes or find some food for them and prepare them so that the fighter would take it back with him as food in the front.

AMY GOODMAN: Nasrine Gross, how do you feel about the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan?

NASINRE GROSS: I totally support the U.S. actions. The Afghan people have been fighting this evil all alone for the last six-and-a-half years. Every day that the Taliban and Osama bin Laden continue to be in Afghanistan, thousands and really millions of Afghans suffer from not having food, not having shelter, not having any of their rights, any freedom, and their land gets being invaded by non-Afghans, since Taliban and Osama bin Laden are not Afghans. And so, there is a very drastic action needed. I wish we had reached a stage in human development that war would not be — military war would not be necessary. But I totally support this action. It is, to me, the first step in a long process. It’s a critical moment both for Afghanistan. It’s a very courageous moment for America. In the next steps, we have to be very careful. We have to choose and select very wisely. But there is no other way, the same way that fighting Hitler had required a military war.

AMY GOODMAN: Nasrine Gross, human rights activist, back from Afghanistan, speaking to us on Friday. Tahmeena Faryal, spokesperson for RAWA, your response?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Well, I simply, first of all, want to ask Nasrine Gross or anyone else supporting the Northern Alliance that: Why did they simply shy away from the period of '92 to ’96? Whenever they talk to the world, they mislead the world by saying that the tragedies in Afghanistan begin with Taliban in 1996. They don't mention anything about the period between '92 to ’96, that we had some horrible crises than what had happened and still are happening under the Taliban. The different groups that are now, some of them, in the Northern Alliance had worse cases of rape, forced marriages, women's abduction. They even raped a 70-years-old mother and a 4-years-old girl. They destroyed the country. The 70 to 80% of the capital city Kabul is totally destroyed. They looted the Museum of Afghanistan, the hospitals and the schools.

AMY GOODMAN: You’re talking about this period after the Soviets left and before the Taliban took over, that basically the Northern Alliance was in power.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Yes, yes, many groups in the Northern Alliance. And I also want to ask her that: If Afghanistan, the way that she describes or the parts that are under the control of the Northern Alliance is so favorable that there are hospitals, that there are schools, that there are political and social organizations of women, why she lives here in the United States? Why she has been living in this country for decades? I don’t think that, first of all, she can represent the people, the population and women in Afghanistan, because she has been living in this country, leading a very luxurious and comfortable life, without knowing anything about the real tragedies and the plight of Afghan women. When she travels to those parts in Afghanistan, which of course she supports them — she is their voice in this country — she can be regarded as — she can be treated as a guest. And that never means that she can justify what is happening right now in Afghanistan. And I want to ask her to name at least some of those political organizations of women, as well as social organizations of women.

AMY GOODMAN: In Afghanistan.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: In Afghanistan.

AMY GOODMAN: How did RAWA get started?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: RAWA was established in 1977. That was before the Soviet invasion and the fundamentalist occupation, fundamentalists taking power in Afghanistan. At that time, the only purpose of RAWA’s establishment was struggling for the equality of women and men in our society, as Afghanistan was a very much male-dominated society, and women, especially in the rural areas, did not enjoy most of their rights. But later, after the Soviet invasion, and even after they left the country and these fundamentalistic took power, RAWA believed that, first of all, we have to be a political organization, believing in our national emancipation first, and then having women’s emancipation. So, RAWA is an organization for freedom, democracy, women’s rights and participation in the country.

AMY GOODMAN: And who founded RAWA? Who is the woman?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: RAWA was founded by Meena, who was executed 10 years later, in 1987.

AMY GOODMAN: By whom?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: She was executed by KGB agents with the help of one of the fundamentalist groups in Pakistan. And obviously, they thought that they would execute Meena, they would kill Meena, in order to kill the voice of women in Afghanistan and stop RAWA. But, obviously, they were wrong.

AMY GOODMAN: We have to break for stations to identify themselves. When we come back, I want to ask — I have seen you on CNN, though in darkness. Your face is always covered, though not by a veil. But I haven’t heard you — them talking to you about, for example, the Northern Alliance. It’s much more to talk about how bad the Taliban is, which serves as a justification for bombing. And I wanted to ask what you think about that. After we’re finished with Tahmeena Faryal, we’re going to talk about the World Trade Center towers and how they originally came into being in the 1960s, and then a look at the legislation that passed on Friday that increases the federal authority’s ability to wiretap and deport and detain people. You’re listening to The War and Peace Report. Back in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: And the music you’ve just listened to by Laura Light, Debbie Hunter, Estela Knott at a peace rally in Lee Park, Charlottesville, Virginia, this past weekend, another rally against war that doesn’t get much coverage in the mainstream media in this country. This is The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.

And we’re joined in our firehouse studio by Tahmeena Faryal, not her real name. Her face is not being shown, and her real name is not given, to protect her as she travels in secret and works in secret. She’s a spokesperson for the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan. She has spent much of her life in Pakistan, is now visiting in the United States.

What about that issue of what you’re asked in the mainstream media? Because RAWA has gotten some attention. Are you asked about your views on the Northern Alliance?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Well, in fact, in one of the shows, Larry King show on CNN, I was in a panel with the representative of the Northern Alliance from Afghanistan, although the discussion was not directly about the Northern Alliance. It was about Islam and terrorism and how Islam is misused in order to implement their terrorist objectives in Afghanistan or in other countries. But still, obviously, being with the representative of the Northern Alliance, you could not, you know, simply shy away of that fact, especially when they also condemn the Taliban, saying that they misuse Islam. In fact, they, those groups, from ’92 to ’96, did the same. They also misused Islam.

AMY GOODMAN: And did you raise this in the program?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: I’m sorry?

AMY GOODMAN: Were you able to raise this in the program?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Yes, yes. I mean, this was the question that directly I asked him, that what the Northern Alliance did in Afghanistan under the name of Islam in that period. But usually, this is the question that we are being asked, because RAWA is, unfortunately, one of the few organizations that has always had a position, a very firm position, against the Northern Alliance.

AMY GOODMAN: And what about your position on the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: We don’t think that the bombing can do anything to help this situation. Even it would not fulfill the mission of the U.S. to get rid of Osama bin Laden or, well, to have this combat against terrorism. We believe that maybe through this bombing, we would destroy some terrorist camps. They would maybe kill some Taliban or Osama bin Laden. But that does not mean that the campaign against terrorism was done. And so far, as you mentioned, we are witness that there have already been hundreds of civilian casualties, that we condemn any single civilian casualty as a result of this attack. We know that the people of Afghanistan are fed up with Taliban and other fundamentalists, as we’ve heard from many of them that, on one hand, they’re terrified by the bombing, but, on the other hand, they say that if this gets rid of the Taliban and roots them out in Afghanistan. Taliban and also other groups, they think that that could be the positive side. But as we are witness so far, we don’t know how much successful they were in rooting out those terrorist camps, as well as the efforts to bring the Northern Alliance to power, which we do not think that they’re any different.

AMY GOODMAN: You have been living, Tahmeena, in Pakistan. Pakistan has fully supported the Taliban and also contributed to the Northern Alliance. How have you been able to function there? Why can you do your work any better outside of Afghanistan?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: It’s usually a question that how RAWA can function in Pakistan, considering the fact that Pakistan has been always a country supportive towards the different groups, fundamentalist groups in Afghanistan, and right now the Taliban. And that is the main reason that RAWA has to operate totally in secret, even in Pakistan. We’re the oldest women organization in Afghanistan, but we do not have any office in Pakistan. And most of our activities are totally in secret. Once in a while, we have some open activities, such as demonstrations or functions or selling our magazine in Pakistani markets, but usually they have been attacked by the Pakistani and Afghan fundamentalists. And the police of Pakistan also has not been supportive towards our activities.

AMY GOODMAN: What about the United States? Have you been meeting with the State Department? Is there any discussion of RAWA being included in a new post-Taliban government? There’s a lot of discussion of the Taliban being included in a post-Taliban government, going as high up as the foreign minister, who’s in Pakistan, meeting secretly with a Central Intelligence Agency there, and now being sort of talked about as possibly a moderate, a so-called moderate Taliban.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Well, first of all, we do not know what do they mean when they say “moderate Taliban.” Do they mean the foreign minister of the Taliban? Because he — we heard that he was separated from Taliban. And he is the one believing that the country should support Taliban to make another sport — another stadium for the public execution and amputations. So, do they mean a moderate Talib by him, even if he’s not with the Taliban anymore?

But, yes, in any official meetings or meetings with United Nations, we’ve definitely talked about having women’s voice and participation, active participation, in the future government of Afghanistan. And RAWA, as an organization being always inside the country in Pakistan among women, can be the real representative of the women. But sometimes there are discussions that Afghanistan has been a very conservative society and very much male-dominated, and in this situation, it might be difficult to have women in the government. And there are many other issues that should be solved before that. But we don’t think that that’s true. We need to have women’s voice and participation from the very beginning.

AMY GOODMAN: And have you been meeting with the U.S. State Department?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: With the Afghanistan desk, yes.

AMY GOODMAN: But that’s much lower-level. I mean, in this discussion that they’re having with congressmembers, State Department officials, CIA, with the king, the former king of Afghanistan, they’re clearly organizing for a new government. Are you a part? Is your organization represented as a part of those talks, or any women?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Not part of that, that talk. And what I heard, that there there was just one woman, that I think she’s quite unknown and have not — has not been living in Afghanistan for years. Just as a symbolic figure, she was involved in that.

AMY GOODMAN: So, what are you calling for right now?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: We think that the former king of Afghanistan is an alternative at this point. Comparing him to any other forces right now in Afghanistan, he is acceptable to the people. But it is also very much possible. And I think that already he has lost some of his credibility among the people when there are talks that he would be with the Northern Alliance. So, we think that the king, along with some other moderate elements, those who are anti-fundamentalist or at least non-fundamentalist elements and technocrats, can form a transitional government. And we believe that we should have an election in our country, and that that election is possible only when the different armed groups, the Taliban and the Northern Alliance, are disarmed. We believe that that mission should be taken by United Nations peacekeeping force. And then we can claim for a more democratic government, where women definitely should and can have their voice.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you have any expectation soon of being in Afghanistan?

TAHMEENA FARYAL: I think that this is an expectation from most of the Afghans in exile. We’ve had it for years. We really don’t know how long this situation is going to last. But obviously, we are very much hopeful that very soon Afghanistan can get rid of the fundamentalists, and we have our peaceful and stable country where people at least could breathe freedom and democracy.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I want to thank you very much for being with us. Tahmeena Faryal has been our guest, a spokesperson for RAWA, the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan. The website, for more information, is RAWA.org. That’s RAWA.org. Thank you very much.

TAHMEENA FARYAL: Thank you.