NERMEEN SHAIKH: The U.S. has struck Iran for a second day in a row, and President Trump is threatening more strikes as hopes for an immediate peace deal are fading. In retaliation, Iran has claimed it launched missiles at the U.S. Fifth Fleet in Bahrain, as well as at air bases in Kuwait and Jordan. Iran has also declared the complete closure of the Strait of Hormuz, despite claims by the U.S. that it now effectively controls the strait. Iran’s Foreign Ministry says the U.S. strikes have rendered the ceasefire, quote, “practically meaningless.” On Wednesday, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth threatened more strikes.

DEFENSE SECRETARY PETE HEGSETH: President Trump, he’s willing to go back and fight as necessary, but has given Iran an open hand to make this deal. It’s right there. They have that chance. They’re choosing to play games. They’re choosing to tap. If they want to tap, then — then the president will turn to the War Department. If we need to negotiate with bombs, we’ll negotiate with bombs. And we’re very good at it.

AMY GOODMAN: To talk about this and more, we go to Cambridge, Massachusetts, where we’re joined by Rami Khouri, Palestinian American journalist, distinguished public policy fellow at the American University of Beirut. He’s also a nonresident senior fellow with the Arab Center Washington DC.

Rami, welcome back to Democracy Now! So, you have Hegseth saying, “[If] we need to negotiate with bombs, we will negotiate with bombs. And we are very good at it.” Can you talk about the significance of what has happened? Can you really say negotiations have broken down? President Trump has said dozens of times that we’re very near a deal.

RAMI KHOURI: Thank you for having me, Amy.

The negotiations have not broken down. They’ve been going on almost nonstop several months now. The Qataris are getting more involved, and the Pakistanis and others.

The Americans have focused, as Hegseth said, have focused on the military side of things. And the military side of things is a huge stalemate, and the U.S. finds itself a bit in a corner. It can attack ferociously, as the Israelis can, in Lebanon and throughout the region, but the military power of Israel and the U.S. has not achieved any of their serious political objectives. And this is a big disappointment to them and embarrassment to them, but they don’t know what to do. They’re not negotiating seriously, and they just keep up the bravado of the attacks and the bombs and all that.

I think the historic reality before us is that Iran and Hezbollah have checked the U.S. and Israel in so many dimensions on the military side, and forced them to come back to the negotiating table at some point and do serious negotiations to address the underlying issues.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: And, Professor Khouri, I mean, if we could talk a little bit more about the negotiations? Trump, of course, had said that it would have to pay the price — Iran would have to pay the price for taking too long to negotiate a deal, saying Iran was, quote, “playing us for suckers.” The last time that Iran and the U.S. spoke directly, I believe, was in April, but talks have been continuing through intermediaries. If you could say what it is we know about the status of the talks at the moment and whether there is any expectation that Iran and the U.S. will resume the talks they had in Islamabad in April?

RAMI KHOURI: Well, I don’t think it makes a huge amount of difference if they’re sitting in the same room or if they’re negotiating through Pakistan, Qatar and others. The important point is they’re narrowing down the differences between them, and they’re narrowing down the points that they can agree on. And they seemed to — they almost had an agreement a couple weeks ago to have a ceasefire, a full ceasefire, for 60 days, and then negotiate the trickiest part, which is the nuclear issue, and maybe some of the money that the U.S. is withholding, and sanctions. There are issues that still have to be negotiated, but they both want to stop the war, for sure. Netanyahu doesn’t want to stop the war; they want to expand it. And they’re doing that in Lebanon.

So, I think we’re going to see this situation continue, where the U.S. talks to the various negotiators, maybe sits with the Iranians again, which would be a good thing, but at the same time, the really big dynamic, the big issue now, is the relationship between Israel and the United States. Israel has made it clear that it’s not going to do what the U.S. tells it. Trump says he’s in charge. The fact is, we don’t know who’s in charge. And if Israel is allowed to get away with continuing to attack Lebanon as it’s doing, along with all the other stuff it’s doing in Palestine, then this is a very bad sign for the whole Middle East.

But these are all big issues, and none of them are clear. This is what’s perplexing about the situation. And there’s multiple, multiple war fronts, political, economic sanctions, trade, aid, all kinds of different levels, different issues, with different partners. And each of the actors — the Americans and Netanyahu and the Iranians — they’re all playing to different audiences at the same time. It’s extremely multilayered, multidimensional, and this is one of the things that makes it so hard. And nobody’s in charge. Trump wants to give the impression that he’s in charge, but clearly he’s not. He doesn’t know what to do. They don’t know how to get out of this. And they don’t know how to bring the — rein in the Israelis.

So, I expect we’re going to see a continuation of these tit-for-tat military strikes. It’s fascinating that they each have hit each other — Israel, Hezbollah, Iran and the U.S. They attack each other, do an attack, and then say, “OK, we did it, and that’s it.” So, they’re not — these are not serious military assaults. What is serious is the total blockade on the Straits of Hormuz now, which is in place, and the Iranian announcement that they’ve created what they call a regional resistance belt, with Yemen and Hezbollah and others all together, working much more closely together. And remember that Iran attacked Israel because Israel attacked Beirut about a week ago. So, that makes it even more complicated. And this is again the situation where the U.S. and the Israelis are not clear about how to resolve this. They don’t — they’ve never faced an adversary like Iran, or a group of adversaries like Iran and its allies on the resistance belt.

AMY GOODMAN: You know, in a moment, Rami, we’re going to be talking about the World Cup, opening today. It’s the first time a host country is at war with a participating country, right? The United States versus Iran. But before we go, I did want to ask you about those three Indian sailors who were killed when the U.S. struck a tanker in the Strait of Hormuz, and, as you mentioned, Iranian news agency is saying Iran is going to shut it down tight, the Strait of Hormuz, and what this effect will have. But first, the sailors.

RAMI KHOURI: Well, the World Cup being hosted by the U.S., Mexico and Canada — the U.S. is getting most of the limelight — is a continuation of the kind of racist, militaristic, imperial attitude that the United States has adopted in the Middle East with the confrontation with Iran, with the Israeli, Lebanese, Palestinian confrontations. And they’re showing the same thing with the World Cup, banning a very highly respected Somali referee, not allowing some of the coaches to come in, or some of the players. This is typical imperial, racist, colonial behavior, taken to a new stage. And most of the world is pretty much disgusted by this, but they just have to play along with it. They can’t stop it.

And then, in terms of what’s going on in the Middle East, the ban on the — the closure of Hormuz, as the Iranians say they’ve done, will probably be reacted to. The U.S. will react to this. And they have their blockade of ships, and they’re attacking. So, they’re attacking ships, as you mentioned, the three Indians who died. And this is a continuation again of the American attitude that we have a huge military, we can hit anybody anywhere in the world anytime we want. And they can. They have this incredible power. But they can’t use that power yet. They haven’t learned how to use their military power for constructive diplomatic purposes. And this is being proven once more in Iran. And the Iranians are replying not on military terms, because they can’t match the U.S. or Israel, but they’re replying more on economic terms and spreading the pain to other countries in the region and hitting the U.S. wherever it has assets in the region.

NERMEEN SHAIKH: We’re going to have to leave it there, Rami Khouri, Palestinian American journalist and distinguished public policy fellow at the American University of Beirut. He’s also a nonresident senior fellow at the Arab Center Washington DC.

Coming up, we look at the start of the World Cup. Stay with us.

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NERMEEN SHAIKH: “Barrio Tropical” by José Miguel Ortegón Tovar.