AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman.

In Colorado, hundreds of protesters gathered in Boulder Saturday to condemn the Trump administration’s plan to dismantle the National Center for Atmospheric Research, NCAR, a federally funded climate and weather research institute based in Boulder. Last week, White House budget director Russell Vought called NCAR “one of the largest sources of climate alarmism in the country,” unquote.

Democratic lawmakers have suggested Trump targeted the climate facility in retaliation for Colorado’s refusal to release Tina Peters, a former county clerk convicted of tampering with voting machines during the 2020 presidential election. She was sentenced to nine years. Trump recently pardoned her, but he doesn’t have the legal authority to overturn a state court conviction.

We’re joined now by climate scientist Michael Mann, professor at the University of Pennsylvania. His new book with Dr. Peter Hotez is titled Science Under Siege. He has a new piece out today in The Guardian on Trump’s shuttering of the National Center for Atmospheric Research.

Can you talk about the significance, Michael, Professor Mann, of the closing? Are they closing this facility? What it means, I mean, even right now, as Colorado is under a wildfire alert because there has been so little rain and the winds are so intense?

MICHAEL MANN: Yeah. It’s good to be with you, Amy.

Unfortunately, this does sort of underscore just how absurd this latest action by the Trump administration is. We’re literally seeing the devastating consequences of climate change play out in this state. You’re not supposed to get wildfires in the middle of the winter in Colorado, but that’s the world we live in now because of the warming of the planet and the more extreme weather that we’re seeing as a result.

And, you know, I think there are a lot of things that Donald Trump could have tried to do to hurt the state of Colorado. I think the reason that he chose NCAR is that it is the crown jewel of climate science. For more than a half-century, it has been a leader when it comes to American advancement in the science of climate modeling. And he is executing the playbook of Project 2025, the Heritage Foundation, of course, playing a major part in this dismantling of climate infrastructure, the infrastructure for doing climate science, the infrastructure for doing something about the climate crisis. So, it isn’t a coincidence that he’s going after this, you know, iconic climate institution.

AMY GOODMAN: So, talk about, overall, the Trump administration now when it comes to climate change. And what does it mean to take NCAR basically offline? And what happens to this facility in Boulder right now?

MICHAEL MANN: Yeah, it’s unclear at this point. And this will play out in the courts, almost certainly, so we don’t know the full consequences of this yet. But the models that NCAR creates are used around the world. They’re among the leading models of Earth’s climate system. I have benefited tremendously in my own research from the work that NCAR does when it comes to climate modeling, when it comes to observational climate data sets that allow us to document the changes that are taking place. So this will hurt climate science, certainly, writ large.

But it will also ensure that the United States fall to the back of the line, essentially. We used to lead in all areas of science, and certainly in climate science. And now what we’re — you know, these sorts of actions are going to mean that the rest of the world moves ahead of us. Scientists are going to leave the United States for opportunities in other countries. And we are going to, essentially, fall behind in terms of our scientific leadership and our scientific stature in the world.

But the actual practical consequences are that we will not have the sorts of observational data and climate models that we need to inform climate policy, to, you know, help us understand what sorts of adaptive measures will need to be changed to protect people from the devastating consequences of climate change as it continues on.

AMY GOODMAN: The Trump administration recently denied Colorado Governor Jared Polis’s disaster declaration request for major wildfires and flooding across Colorado. The Boulder area experienced hurricane-force winds of nearly 100 miles per hour over the weekend and increased fire danger, prompting NCAR to close for safety reasons. The significance of this?

MICHAEL MANN: Yeah, I mean, it’s ironic, isn’t it? Not only are they trying, is Trump and, you know, the Koch brothers and the other sort of plutocrats behind these actions — not only are they trying to dismantle climate science, they’re trying to dismantle our ability to protect people from the devastating consequences of climate change. So, it’s cruel. It is — you know, it’s going to cost lives. I mean, these actions are — you know, it may be a little bit more subtle than the lives cost because of their anti-science actions when it comes to vaccines and COVID-19 and protecting — you know, protecting public health in that arena, but millions of people ultimately will die from the consequences of extreme weather events, coastal inundation, all of these impacts that are made worse by the, you know, warming of the planet, that’s due to the burning of fossil fuels, the burning of fossil fuels by the very companies and plutocrats and petrostates that are behind the policies of this administration.

AMY GOODMAN: [You] said, “Not since the ransacking of the Library of Alexandria have we witnessed such a wanton, intentional assault on scientific knowledge.” We have 30 seconds, Professor Mann.

MICHAEL MANN: Yeah, it’s a line from my commentary. And, you know, there’s some question as to the veracity of that story, but I think it captures sort of the insanity of what we’re doing. We’re literally destroying knowledge. And we have to look back to ancient times to see eras similar, you know, when barbarians tried to destroy knowledge. That’s what this administration is doing. They’re trying to destroy knowledge.

AMY GOODMAN: Michael Mann, professor at the University of Pennsylvania, co-author of the book Science Under Siege with Dr. Peter Hotez. We will link to your new piece, out today in The Guardian.

That does it for our show. Democracy Now! is currently accepting applications for our video news production and digital fellowship programs. You can learn more and apply at democracynow.org.

Democracy Now! is produced with Mike Burke, Renée Feltz, Deena Guzder, Messiah Rhodes, Nermeen Shaikh, María Taracena, Nicole Salazar, Sara Nasser, Charina Nadura, Sam Alcoff, Tey-Marie Astudillo, John Hamilton, Robby Karran, Hany Massoud, Safwat Nazzal. Our executive director, Julie Crosby. Special thanks to Becca Staley. I’m Amy Goodman.