AMY GOODMAN: You’re listening to Democracy Now!, where voices of dissent are commonplace. I’m Amy Goodman. And I’m joined now by Reverend Lucius Walker of Pastors for Peace. He’s in the 85th day of a hunger strike. He’s trying to get the United States government to release hundreds of computers and allow them to be shipped to Cuba for use in hospitals and medical clinics. I have to start by asking you, Reverend Walker: How are you feeling?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Well, I’m feeling encouraged today, because our network around the country has shown unusual stamina and persistence. It’s been 85 days, and they’ve maintained pressure on the government to release the computers in spite of, until now, not having a computer released. You know, we’re not accustomed to hanging in that long with no results. And I want to dedicate this day to the thousands upon thousands of people around this country who have consistently waged a relentless campaign of calls and faxes to the Treasury Department and the White House, because they’re the ones who are the real heroes of this struggle.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, I want to take a step back, because not a lot of people know what it is that you’re doing. This is a major problem in the media now in terms of reporting on this fast. I mean, 85 days, you’re almost in the — going into the fourth month of a fast.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: That’s correct.

AMY GOODMAN: How did this all get started?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: On January 31st, 70 caravanistas were attempting to carry —

AMY GOODMAN: Caravanistas, you’re saying?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Caravanistas, were attempting to carry 395 very simple, low-level, early-generation computers that had been donated by people in various parts of the country to Cuba, to install them and to give them to churches, that was going to oversee the distribution to clinics and hospitals in many parts of the country, particularly some of the rural and mountain areas. The U.S. Customs Service, along with eight other federal agencies, spent, it has been estimated, well over a million dollars — and, of course, they’re still spending — to stop the delivery of what they have estimated to be about $200,000 worth of equipment.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, this is a part of a tradition. We should put this in a little context here. This was what? Your sixth?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Sixth.

AMY GOODMAN: Cuba caravan?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Mm-hmm.

AMY GOODMAN: In the past, you’ve brought food, you’ve brought medicine. What else?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: The first caravan was Bibles, bicycles and school supplies. And we were arrested for simply taking those things. But there was such a — 

AMY GOODMAN: Did you get them in, though?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: We got everything in. There was such an outcry from the public that the government had to back off. And we received a letter before the second caravan saying, “Well, school supplies, Bibles and bicycles can go, but you can’t take vehicles.” We had announced we would take a vehicle, because a couple of churches in Cuba had requested church buses. And one of the vehicles went through in the main body of the caravan, and the last caravan — last vehicle in the caravan was a yellow school bus, which I was driving, and that was seized. We did a 23-day hunger strike. And there was an international outcry, because this great nation, big nation, had seized a yellow school bus. The school bus was released.

The third caravan was preparing to go. We got a letter saying, “School supplies, Bibles and bicycles can go, and vehicles, but you can’t take electrical equipment,” because a group in Wisconsin had donated a truckload of electric sewing machines. Well, they stopped that truck and insisted that the driver cut the cords off. That’s how vicious and mean-spirited they are.

AMY GOODMAN: Cut the cords off the sewing machines?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Off of the sewing machines. And after cutting five or six, he just threw the knife down and said, “I can’t. You cut them off, or arrest me.” And even the customs officials couldn’t cut the cords off. So, that truck, minus six without cords, went to Cuba. So, you see, every time, what I’m saying in answer to your question, is we’ve pushed the parameters. We’ve forced them to, quote, “liberalize,” unquote, their definition of what humanitarian aid is. And this is now the sixth caravan.

AMY GOODMAN: Have you gotten computers in before?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Yes, 18 of the computers that are now a part of the system for medical information in Cuba were delivered on our last caravan. We have gotten computers over on several occasions. We have this documented on film, and therefore, we assume that, particularly since we were taking XTs and 286 computers, that many people in the U.S. use for doorstops or for decoration or just store in their closets, that these would go through with no trouble. And yet the government expended all this energy and the time and human personnel to prevent this simple act of love from taking place.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, we’re talking to Reverend Lucius Walker, who’s in the 85th day of a fast, part of Pastors for Peace. He’s striking against the U.S. embargo on Cuba. And I should say that we did invite the Treasury Department on to be a part of this conversation.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Oh, great, I hope they come.

AMY GOODMAN: We’ve talked with them over the last few days, in fact, over the last few weeks. Now, they have gracefully declined, they said. But a few of their comments on the telephone, when I asked, Are they going to let you die? — I mean, 85 days of a fast is quite serious — they responded, It’s not as if we have you tied up in the basement of the Treasury Department and are preventing you from eating. That’s your choice. Also, when we talked about you challenging the law in a previous conversation, the Treasury Department official says, “Why don’t you buy a congressman like anyone else?”

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Oh my god.

AMY GOODMAN: Why don’t we talk about Congress and what kind of support you’re getting there?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: We have brought a miracle, we think, in this post-Brothers to the Rescue climate, post the passage of Helms-Burton, and with President Clinton having totally caved in and given the Jorge Mas Canosas of this world more than they ask for.

AMY GOODMAN: Let’s go back again. When you say Helms-Burton, explain what it is, for people who are not quite up on this strengthening of the U.S. embargo.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Helms-Burton, Jesse Helms, a senator from North Carolina, Dan Burton, a congressperson from Indiana, co-sponsored legislation to further tighten the blockade against Cuba. It is draconian. It is absurd. Most of the members of the Congress who voted for it realize that it’s unenforceable. But in this climate of hostility and venom towards Cuba, it passed. And —

AMY GOODMAN: Well, it passed right after Cuba shot down the — 

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Right.

AMY GOODMAN: — the planes of the Cubans coming from Miami.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: And in that climate, we have visited over 120 congressional offices, and we have more than 70 members of Congress who have gone on record, either with phone calls or letters, publicly supporting our efforts to get the computers through to Cuba.

AMY GOODMAN: Who is leading the support in Congress?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: The major spokesperson on this is Congressperson Charles Rangel from Harlem. He has been — he’s been simply wonderful. He’s taken this on as an issue. But he would be the first to say that he has been joined by a strong coterie of members of Congress who feel incensed about this and who are willing to go on the public record to say this is a stupid policy which must be ended, and these simple computers ought to be allowed to go to Cuba.

AMY GOODMAN: One of the things the Treasury Department says is that you have not even given in a request to get these computers through.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: That’s a lie.

AMY GOODMAN: Have you signed a —

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: What have you signed?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: We have not applied for a license. That is certain. And we have said —

AMY GOODMAN: And they say you have to apply for a license.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: And we have been very clear to them that in no other instance is it necessary to have a license to take simple, nonstrategic humanitarian aid to churches in other countries.

AMY GOODMAN: They say — again, this is in conversation with the Treasury Department, and I wish that they were here to say it themselves. They say that you say these computers are for health clinics, but, in fact, anything that goes to Cuba probably ends up in a communist government office.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Well, anything that goes to Cuba for health services will end up in one of the finest healthcare systems in this hemisphere. I want to tell you a story, or tell the listeners a story. When we were in the Fast for Life in San Diego, right at the Mexican border, one morning at about 7:30, we were awakened by a visitor who said he had just returned from Mexico, where he purchased medicines, which he does monthly. But it turned out that this guy worked in one of the largest hospitals in San Diego and doesn’t have healthcare, can’t afford to buy the medicines in the hospital where he works, and has to go to Mexico to buy medicines that he can afford. That’s the healthcare system in this country. And here we were in a Fast for Life to plead with our government to allow these medical computers to go to a country that provides healthcare for its people. So, for this finest healthcare system in the hemisphere, we’re attempting to deliver simple aid. Yes, it will go to the people of this country, and it is a system which is endorsed by the government and supported by the government.

AMY GOODMAN: How can they use the computers in the clinics?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: To develop programs for inventory — right now in Cuba, inventory of supplies, equipment is done manually; to provide a database of information for medical students to study; to provide information for specialized operational procedures in various remote parts of the country, so that specialists can be in direct communication with the doctors that are in the mountains, to provide directions for specialized operations; and, finally, to provide information for many of the medical personnel in some of the rural regions to indicate the properties of the herbs that grow in that region, so they can expand their Green Medicine Program.

AMY GOODMAN: Reverend Lucius Walker, speaking of communications, are you in direct communication with Treasury Secretary Robert Rubin?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: I am not in direct communication. I would be happy to be. But I have not had the privilege of talking with him. He has been in direct communication with members of Congress. Other staff of the Treasury Department have been in direct communication with Congressman Rangel
and other members.

AMY GOODMAN: And what are they saying? What’s the Treasury Department telling you now?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: The latest development is that we have a statement, an announcement, from the Treasury Department that the Canadian computers — and I know I’ll have to explain what that means, but there are 23 computers out of the lot of 395 that were donated by Canadians. And they entered the U.S. at the Washington state border with — under a bond, $100 paid by the Canadians, with the guarantee that they would go through the U.S. and exit into Mexico. But instead of allowing them to exit, the customs officials in San Diego seized them and would not allow them to go on to Mexico. They are now, under this announcement made three days ago, to be released. However, I must hasten to add that, as of yet, they have not been released.

AMY GOODMAN: In fact, one of the four fasters — you are part of this group of four — he has gone there.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: He’s the Canadian — is that right?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Brian — 

AMY GOODMAN: — who’s gone to San Diego?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: Brian Rohatyn is now in San Diego, along with representatives of a religious coalition representing major denominations in this country, such as the Episcopal Church, the Progressive National Baptist Convention, the American Baptist Convention, the United Methodist Church and the National Council of Churches. They are in San Diego waiting for the Treasury Department to fulfill its announcement.

AMY GOODMAN: Now, recently, we just got a press release saying that there was a group of people supporting you, including 1199, the largest independent union in New York, the health and hospitals union, Dennis Rivera. What kind of support have you gotten? And from which groups?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: We have gotten support from labor unions, from church groups, from Cuban American organizations, from a number of professional organizations.

AMY GOODMAN: How about corporations? I mean, many corporations in this country are not happy with the embargo, because this means other countries and companies from there are doing the investment in Cuba they’d like to be doing.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: We have no support from corporations. We have lip service from corporations. We know that over 100 U.S. corporations have gone to Cuba illegally, violating the blockade, and they have secretly signed letters of intent with Cuba so that they’ll be first in line when the blockade ends, because they know that the blockade is wrong and that it must end. They also — U.S. corporations also know that it’s not in the interest of their business for the blockade to continue, so they’re lining up. But they won’t go public and be a force within our democratic system to force the government to end the blockade.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think that there is a more effective strategy now than fasting? I mean, you’re fasting to get computers into the country. Maybe that isn’t something that’s grabbing the heart of American people, because it’s computers. It’s not food. It’s not medicine.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: There may be, for some people, more effective strategies. And we would welcome and affirm any strategy that anyone can use. What I should say to you is that thank God we chose to fast at the time we did, because we began the fast three days before the downing of the Brothers to the Rescue planes. And were we not in the trenches on the ground in this act of civil disobedience, there would have not been a symbol, a soul, a center around which the solidarity movement in this country could have rallied when the Helms-Burton bill was passed, because when the Helms-Burton bill passed, it it struck despair in the hearts of the solidarity movement. And even until now, there has not been a gathering, unfortunately, of the solidarity community in this country to mount an aggressive counteraction against the passage of the Helms bill, so that the work that has been being done has — in solidarity, has been centered around this fast. Now, if there’s something better, let’s have it, and we’ll support it. But until that happens, I think it’s fair and right for us to call for all people of goodwill to support what we’re doing.

AMY GOODMAN: Have you gotten any coverage on the broadcasting networks in this country?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: We’ve gotten limited coverage. There’s been a very effective, I must admit, whiteout of this effort. But we have made some breakthroughs. Thank God for Pacifica around the country. Thank God for stations like KPFA. And thank God for people like Denise Manzari in Connecticut. And we forced, because of FAIR and our own network’s calling and writing to NPR, them to give coverage, which was very, very poor coverage.

AMY GOODMAN: We saw the letter they got just the day before that piece came out. What about Cuban coverage? Is Cuba taking notice of this fast?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: It is center stage. It is frontline headline news in Cuba and in other countries in the world. But in the U.S., the free press has not chosen to give this information to its people.

AMY GOODMAN: Reverend Lucius Walker, are you fasting until death?

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: I think the more important question is: How long will the U.S. government hold on to these computers? I’m fasting until the computers are released. I live with the hope that our country will not continue to prevent simple computers from going to people. And I want to add that we’re not going to buy a congressperson. That’s not the way the democratic system is supposed to work.

AMY GOODMAN: A phone number where people can get in touch with you? We have 10 seconds.

REV. LUCIUS WALKER: 202-488-5654, or in New York City at our national office, 212-926-5757. But I also, if you will allow, want to urge people to call Washington to —

AMY GOODMAN: We have to stop it there. I have to thank you very much, Reverend Lucius Walker, for joining us this morning. Reverend Lucius Walker, in the 85th day of his hunger fast protesting the U.S. embargo on Cuba. I’m Amy Goodman, for another edition of Pacifica Radio’s Democracy Now!