AMY GOODMAN: Well, the new Mother Jones magazine has come out, and there’s a piece in it, “Homeroom or War Room? Junior ROTC Invades the Public Schools.” This is how it begins:

“Several hundred teenagers dressed in patent leather shoes and crisp green U.S. Army uniforms are greeting and backslapping each other in the crowded school hallway. Suddenly, a drum corps thunders to life, and the students hustle into a cavernous hall, where they snap to attention. Chests out, butts in, chins up, and right hands that smack their foreheads in simultaneous salute. Stone-faced student 'commanders' walk along the formation, writing demerits for missing ties, untied shoes, and other infractions. A girl behind me drops to the floor and sweats through a set of push-ups. 'I forgot my name tag,' she explains breathlessly.

“Is this West Point? The Citadel? Boot camp? Try again: It’s a typical morning at the Chicago Military Academy, a public high school in the most militarized school system in America. More than 9,000 of the city’s students, some as young as 11, are enrolled in school programs run by the U.S. military. Chicago is in the vanguard of a growing national movement that is responding to the problems of struggling inner-city schools by sending in the Marines — and the Army, Navy, and Air Force.”

David Goodman wrote that piece, and he joins us on the line, as well as a number of other people, to discuss and debate the issue of Junior ROTC.

Welcome to The War and Peace Report.

DAVID GOODMAN: Thanks, Amy.

AMY GOODMAN: You have spent the last weeks traveling around the country looking at Junior ROTC. What have you found?

DAVID GOODMAN: Well, the program — it’s interesting that many people, when I would tell them the breadth of the program, which is that it is now in 3,000 high schools across the country, with about a half a million students enrolled — many people were shocked, because it’s simply off the radar screen of many communities if there doesn’t happen to be a Junior ROTC program in their school. And yet, this is a growing program. The program doubled in size in the last 10 years. It was a relatively modest educational effort. It has grown to become the largest youth program run by the Department of Defense.

General Colin Powell, the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, was responsible for jump-starting this 10 years ago, and he did it in response to the L.A. riots. And he decided what inner-city schools needed was what the military had to offer, which was discipline and, you know, basically a no-nonsense, no-excuses attitude, as well as the kind of military drilling and that kind of thing. So, what we have now is, around the country, we have entire high schools now being converted to all Junior ROTC programs, so that every student is a cadet. There are two such high schools in Chicago, with plans for a third, and there are other similar high schools in other cities.

What I found in looking at a variety of these programs, from Massachusetts to Chicago, was that many of the students and the parents of those students who are in the program will say that they do like the discipline of the program. They feel that it helps with character building. Other students tell me that they felt pressed, coerced by their parents, that if they didn’t go into this, they were going to be either kicked out of school or they were going to wind up with the police. But there certainly is some positive things said about it by the people involved.

But the missing piece that parents, students and school and military people will not talk much about is the fact that, nationally, the Department of Defense says that about 40% of all students who go through Junior ROTC wind up in the military. So, we have here a program where nearly half of all kids who come in come out as soldiers, and that may very well wind them up in the position of going to places like Afghanistan, when all they were really going in to do was to maybe boost their grade point average a little, or so their parents thought. When asked, now, the military denies vigorously that this is a recruitment program, but Defense Secretary Cohen, last year, when he was the defense secretary under Clinton, told a House Armed Services Committee panel quite enthusiastically that Junior ROTC is the best recruitment program that the military has. So, we have here, you know, the image of a program where schools and communities are being told one thing, that it’s here to help build character, and the military is cheerleading it on the other end, saying this is a pipeline to the frontline. So, the question really has to be raised, when the military comes into communities, is: Which voice do you believe?

AMY GOODMAN: Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills is also on the line with us. He’s director of Junior ROTC with the Chicago Public Schools. Welcome to The War and Peace Report.

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: Good morning.

AMY GOODMAN: It’s good to have you with us. Well, you have a very different view, I’m sure, of the purpose of Junior ROTC. Can you lay out what the plans are and what the intent of this program is?

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: Well, from my perspective as the director, the intent of the program is to share with our children in the public school system here in Chicago a program that teaches values, leadership, character and citizenship. And we do that, obviously, through JROTC programs in our high schools. I know statistically that about 38 to 40% of our students nationally choose some type of a career in the military or military service or so forth. But there is no agenda here in the Chicago public school system to [inaudible] that as a career path, [inaudible] any means.

AMY GOODMAN: David Goodman?

DAVID GOODMAN: It certainly — as General Mills has indicated, it isn’t overtly stated the intent of the program, and I don’t think that it is the intent of many of the instructors who I met. And, you know, there are many good and sincere people who work in this program and who are helping kids who, otherwise, perhaps, no one would be paying attention to them. And that’s really not in dispute. The question is: What happens? In Chicago, you have programs that are run by the military, extending all the way down to kids who are 11 years old, down to the middle school grades. These are not sanctioned by the U.S. military, because official Junior ROTC only applies to — is only for high school students. But in Chicago and in other cities, they are now extending what they call leadership programs to middle school students. So, here we have the picture of a kid starting at age 11 in a program run by the military and continuing right on through age 18. And it becomes a lot more clear at that point why a student having that kind of influence might end up going into the military. Now, we’re not saying that going into the military is a bad thing. But we are saying that: Is there truth in advertising here? Do parents understand that there is a very high likelihood that their child may end up fighting in a war? And is that what they want?

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: Can I answer that, respond to that? First of all, all of our programs are sanctioned by local school councils. And so, you have the voices of the parents in the community who make the decisions basically as to whether or not they want to have that program in their local school. So, and second of all, our middle school program is basically to teach leadership, character and values, and it’s focused solely at that. I don’t see a negative to exposing our kids to those kinds of attributes at that age.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re also joined on the line by Rick Jahnkow, who is program coordinator of Project YANO, speaking to us from California. Where are you now, Rick Jahnkow?

RICK JAHNKOW: Well, I’m in San Diego County.

AMY GOODMAN: Can you respond to what Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills just said?

RICK JAHNKOW: Yeah. In fact, I’ve got a couple of points to make. I think that recruiting is one aspect of the Junior ROTC program, and it’s very clear that that’s part of the function of it. The Army regulations, which govern the Army program in particular, actually state that Junior ROTC is to create favorable attitudes and impressions towards the services and toward careers in the armed forces. And they have actually built in incentives for Junior ROTC cadets to enlist. For instance, they’re offered a higher pay grade if they join JROTC and then enlist. And they’re also promised the opportunity to compete for ROTC scholarships and Military Academy appointments if they join the ROTC — Junior ROTC program.

But a lot more concretely, there was a memorandum that was issued by the commander of the Cadet Command, which oversees Junior ROTC, dated March 1999, which orders Junior ROTC staff to cooperate with local recruiters. One section of the memorandum says that they are to provide leads and prospect referrals to their U.S. Recruiting Command counterparts. It also says that they’re to facilitate recruiter access to cadets in the Junior ROTC program and to the entire student body. So, I don’t think this can be disputed. It’s very clear.

But I think the other thing to bear in mind is that this is not just a recruiting program, and perhaps that is a more disturbing facet of this. At least it is more disturbing to me. I think that in addition to facilitating recruiting programs like Junior ROTC and the middle school programs and a variety of other military programs in public schools are pretty much designed to influence the way young people think, to help shape their worldview and their values system, and in doing so, these programs are also trying to influence the future political climate in our country. And you can see this when you begin to look at the actual curriculum and the content of the textbooks and the design of these programs.

AMY GOODMAN: Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills?

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: Well, I would like to quote, if I may, Colin Powell’s book, My American Journey. There’s a paragraph in there that says this: “Yet, ironically, while we had a flock of programs in states with large rural areas” — and we’re talking JROTC programs — “like Texas, we continued to meet resistance in certain urban areas. Liberal school administrators and teachers claimed that we were trying to 'militarize' education. Yes, I’ll admit, the armed forces might get a youngster more inclined to enlist as a result of Junor ROTC [program]. But society got a far greater payoff. Inner-city kids, many from broken homes, found stability and role models in Junior ROTC. They got a taste of discipline, the work ethic, and they experienced pride of membership in something healthier than a gang. Until 1993, there were still no Junior ROTC programs in any public school in New York City,” and only one private school offered the program. And it goes on to later: “The junior program can provide a fresh start in life for thousands of endangered kids, particularly those from minorities living in crime-plagued ghettos. Junior ROTC is a social bargain.”

AMY GOODMAN: Well, on that note, we’re going to break for stations to identify themselves. Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills is with us in the Chicago Public Schools, director of Junior ROTC. On the line with us, Rick Jahnkow, who is program coordinator of Youth and Nonmilitary Opportunities in San Diego. That’s Project YANO. Also with us on the line, David Goodman, who is author of the piece in Mother Jones magazine called “Homeroom or War Room? Junior ROTC Invades the Public Schools.” When we come back, we’ll be joined by a few of the cadets in Junior ROTC, as well as people who have resisted joining the military. You’re listening to The War and Peace Report. Back in a minute.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: “Killing in the Name,” Rage Against the Machine, here on The War and Peace Report. This is Resistance Radio. I’m Amy Goodman. And we’re talking about Junior ROTC in this country. Right now thousands of public high schools have signed up nearly half a million students for Junior ROTC. And we’re having a discussion and debate. We’ve been listening to Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills, director of Junior ROTC; David Goodman, who is a journalist who’s written a piece on the whole program in the country; on the line with us from San Diego, Rick Jahnkow, program director of Project YANO, Youth and Nonmilitary Opportunities. Now we’re going to talk with some young people, some who are in Junior ROTC and others who have resisted going into it. We’re joined on the telephone right now by Josefa Infante, who is with Patton Academy at Farragut High School in Chicago. Welcome to The War and Peace Report, Josefa. Josefa, are you there? Josefa? Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills, are you there?

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: Yes, I am.

AMY GOODMAN: Is Yosef with you?

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: Yes, she is.

AMY GOODMAN: Hi. Can you hear me, Josefa?

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: She’s getting on the line now.

AMY GOODMAN: OK. We’re talking about Junior ROTC.

LT. GEN. RICK MILLS: She’s on the line now.

AMY GOODMAN: Josefa, are you there?

JOSEFA INFANTE: Yes, I am.

AMY GOODMAN: Hi.

JOSEFA INFANTE: Hi.

AMY GOODMAN: What year are you in school?

JOSEFA INFANTE: A junior.

AMY GOODMAN: A junior at?

JOSEFA INFANTE: Farragut Academy.

AMY GOODMAN: And can you talk about why you joined Junior ROTC?

JOSEFA INFANTE: The reason I joined JROTC was to have another challenge and not just be depending on just basic needs. Like, JROTC helps you to form friendships, and it shows you leadership skills. So, that’s basically why I joined it.

AMY GOODMAN: Had you always wanted to be in the military?

JOSEFA INFANTE: Actually, I’ve always been interested, to say the truth. Only, I never was around anybody to talk about it. And now being in JROTC, it does help you and guide you to what you really want to do.

AMY GOODMAN: Zach London is on the line with us, as well. He’s a student at Albany High School. And he has organized against Junior ROTC in his school. Did you succeed, Zach?

ZACH LONDON: Oh, yeah, we did.

AMY GOODMAN: And why are you organizing against it?

ZACH LONDON: Well, in this country, more and more money is put into the military, and then there’s more and more poverty. And then JROTC comes into our schools and says that — in schools that are plagued by this poverty, says that discipline is going to help this and that teaching these kids discipline is going to make their lives better. I don’t see how submission to a military officer, if it’s recruiting or even if it’s in the workplace, teaching them just submission to bosses, how that’s going to solve any poverty or any of their problems.

AMY GOODMAN: We’re also joined on the telephone by cadet Tammi Jordan, who is a junior at the Chicago Military Academy. Welcome to The War and Peace Report, Tammy.

TAMMI JORDAN: Hello?

AMY GOODMAN: Hi, Tammi.

TAMMI JORDAN: Hello.

AMY GOODMAN: Hi. What year are you in school?

TAMMI JORDAN: This is my third year. I’m a junior.

AMY GOODMAN: And why did you choose to go into Junior ROTC?

TAMMY JORDAN: I know that JROTC is like a very positive environment. It develops your character, and it helps you with your leadership skills. It also influences you to be a good citizenship.

AMY GOODMAN: And what do you do? What’s a day like for you in Junior ROTC?

TAMMI JORDAN: A regular day in ROTC?

AMY GOODMAN: Yes.

TAMMI JORDAN: Oh, every day in ROTC class, we do talk about building your character. It teaches you about your integrity, duty and leadership and discipline. It also teaches you about good morals that you need to keep throughout your life, like staying drug-free and things.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you plan to join the military after?

TAMMI JORDAN: No, I do not.

AMY GOODMAN: Right now with the U.S. bombing of Afghanistan, are you having discussions in class about that?

TAMMI JORDAN: Yes, we discussed that a few times in the class.

AMY GOODMAN: And what kind of discussion takes place? Do you talk? Do you have discussions, debates on whether, you know, the war should be happening?

TAMMI JORDAN: Yes, we talked about it a few times, like as whether, you know, should we join the military, like, after we graduate and things. But they’re not really influencing us to join the military afterwards.

AMY GOODMAN: Derrick Francis is also with us in our firehouse studio. He is a young person who has gotten involved with the whole issue of the military in the schools, and he also produced for Paper Tiger TV —

DERRICK FRANCIS: And the War Resisters League.

AMY GOODMAN: And the War Resisters League, Military Myths: I Want You! Welcome to The War and Peace Report.

DERRICK FRANCIS: Thanks for having me.

AMY GOODMAN: How did you get involved with the whole issue of Junior ROTC and, overall, the military in the schools?

DERRICK FRANCIS: I would have to say that I, initially, when I began working at the War Resisters League as their Freeman intern, we worked on the De-Militarized Zine, which was a small publication we put together to, you know, face issues of police brutality, militarism being expressed through the media, naturally all of this geared toward youth. And I started working with them when I was 15, and continue working with them now. And now I’m 20, so…

AMY GOODMAN: And what were your conclusions as you started to look at the military in the schools?

DERRICK FRANCIS: Well, as far as the military’s involvement in schools, I saw it as nothing more but a deeper penetration of, you know, like, getting their message out to those youth that they wanted to influence, you know, to enlist in the lowest ranks in the military, which is why you see a lot of ROTC programs springing up in lower-income communities. My conclusion came pretty much, like, on the spur of the moment. Like, I saw — you know, like, I transferred into Thomas Jefferson High School, and I saw the amount of youth participating in the ROTC program. And I was like, “Wow. You know, it’s insane how many kids are doing this now,” because of the fact that it seemed they lacked leadership or direction, and therefore they went to the ROTC, because they got that discipline from — you know, from having, like, this military entity within our school.

AMY GOODMAN: I wanted to play for a little while part of the documentary you did, and then I’d like to get the young cadets, Tammi Jordan and Josefa Infante’s response, also Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills. When did you do this documentary, and how did you put it together?

DERRICK FRANCIS: We began working on this video approximately almost a year ago, towards like late January, early February. We began the planning. And we just recently had our first screening approximately two weeks ago. So, it’s been almost a year coming. And, you know, we actually had the idea initially because of the fact that the War Resisters League had a It’s Not Just a Job video, which was produced, I think, a little over 10 years ago. And we wanted to use the video, you know, as a vehicle of letting youth know there are other alternatives than — you know, rather than the military, alternatives to the military. And we wanted to use the video, but the thing was that it was, you know, extremely outdated. You know what I mean? Like, it was kids with flat tops and, like, you know, the strangest haircuts from back in the day, like, all in the video. And, like, you know, if you were take it into a classroom now and show it, like, who’s going to be able to make the connection? It’s like, all right, that’s a totally different time. You know what I mean? Like, the military has launched their own, like, “Army of one” ads, with all their sleek advertising. So, therefore, you know, we got to combat that with new versions of what we’ve already done. You know, refresh it and make it new.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, let’s take a look. And I warn the cadets, it’s very critical, but very interested in hearing what you have to say afterwards. This is the documentary produced by Derrick Francis and the War Resisters League, Military Myths: I Want You!

STUDENT: It’s a matter of, like, when I was in high school, that’s the first thing I wanted to do. I wanted to join the military. It was an easy — it was an easy approach to the answers of life. You know, you got — you got your Big Brother watching over you, giving you, you know, a bed to sleep in. You got a warm place. You know, you don’t have to worry about rent or anything like that for a moment. And, like, that’s the first thing — I mean, as a youth, that was the first thing I — that was one of my options. I was like, “I’m going to go to the military.” And then, luckily, I had support, where it was like, “No, go away to college. You know, you need that space.” And that’s the most important thing for a young person, is remove yourself from your space, so that way you can objectify it, so you can see it from like outside the box, you know, because it’s so hard when you’re inside the box. You have all these different forces pulling you in different ways.

MARIO HARDY: If you look at a lot of these recruiting as —

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is the voice of Mario Hardy. He worked with the Central Committee of Conscientious Objectors.

MARIO HARDY: — that we see on the television, you know, you have a guy who’s a knight in shining armor, and he slays a dragon, and then some lightning strikes his sword, and he turns into a U.S. Marine. Well, that’s not — it’s not too realistic.

HAROLD JORDAN: But with things like the “Army of one,” there’s a serious disconnect between what’s displayed in TV and the print ads, and especially the massive presence on the web, and what actually goes on in the military. I know that it is something that has caused many veterans, including pro-military veterans, some concern.

KERMIT MIDDLETON: Eighteen years old, I went to recruiting office, and I was registering for the Selective Service at the time. I was supposed to be. And next thing you know, I had a recruiter harass me for about three months straight, you know?

SHAHID COOK: Told me, “Oh, you can make a lot of money in the military. It’s good for you. You’ll serve your country. There’s a lot of benefits. You can travel all over the world, first-class respect,” things like that. You know, all those lies.

INTERVIEWER: What are some of the benefits you would make known to a person who’s thinking about enlisting in the Army?

FERDINAND ARROYO: Well, some of the benefits, I can say, is that we have 212 job skills that they can qualify for.

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Officer Arroyo. He’s a military recruiter.

FERDINAND ARROYO: Also, we offer $50,000 towards tuition, plus $20,000 cash [inaudible] bonus, or whichever they qualify when they take the ASVAB test.

MARIO HARDY: What the ASVAB does is it immediately, basically, like, when you put the test in to be graded, it puts you in a job, in a military job category. It spits out, you know, what category or what type of work you would be best suited for in the military. Now, once the recruiter has that information in his hand, he now knows how to come at you.

JOE CHRIS: He told me that — one, he told me I would never see war in my job. [inaudible]

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Joe Chris. He is a Gulf Army veteran.

JOE CHRIS: And, of course, that’s why I took that job. You know what I’m saying? Because I was like, “Yes, no combat.” No, it’s not true.

MARIO HARDY: The Junior ROTC units are in financially strapped communities. They’re not stressing for anybody to go to college. They’re stressing for people to enlist in the lowest ranks of the military.

DEAD PREZ: You know, the military want to exploit our fighters for their own interests, for the interests of oppression. Know what I mean? So they recruit, where in the hoods, where Latino people, where African people —

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Dead Prez, an AWOL artist.

DEAD PREZ: — know what I mean? — where we have no chances to build for ourselves and self-determination. Know what I mean? So they come and say, “I’ll give you a job, I’ll pay for your college, if you help us oppress, you know, the world through the military forces.

KEVIN RAMIREZ: The way the military is shopped around right now, it’s like, oh, it’s like some kind of fun thing to do —

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Kevin Ramirez. He works with the Military Out of Schools program.

KEVIN RAMIREZ: — like join the Army of one. But really, what the military is about is to fight and win wars, and you could be killed.

INTERVIEWER: A lot of — a lot of kids enlist in the Army to raise money for college. What percentage receives financial support?

FERDINAND ARROYO: All of them.

DERRICK FRANCIS: Only 16% of enlistees who complete one year of college education.

SHAHID COOK: The reason why it’s hard to take advantage of the money for education that [inaudible] —

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is the voice of Shahid Cook, a Navy veteran.

SHAHID COOK: Sometimes while you’re in, you’re going to be working 18-hour days, 16-hour days, and it’s impossible to go to school when you’re working like that. And when you get out, they give you a time span, 10 years. If you don’t use that, that money, within 10 years, you’ll lose it.

JOE CHRIS: My military experience was going to be $30,000, GI Bill, college. That’s what I thought my military experience was going to be. You know what I’m saying? Because that’s the sweet shit they show you in the commercials. They show you all the GI Bill and the college this and and that. In my MOS, you didn’t have time to go to school.

KERMIT MIDDLETON: I get to every unit I go to say, they say, “Hey, you know, the unit is more important. You can’t leave the unit. You can’t do this. You can’t do that.” I was confined to doing what I — you know, the job that they signed me up for. I couldn’t get any time off or nothing. Just pretty much a prisoner.

NILSA SANCHEZ: Well, I didn’t have enough time, because everything with basic training and [inaudible] —

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is the voice of Nilsa Sanchez, another Gulf War veteran.

NILSA SANCHEZ: — and airborne school, nd then just settling down and trying to get adjusted to the new life, you know. And then, the next thing you know, the Gulf War started, so that, you know. And that was pretty fast also. And then, coming back, I only had less than a year, and I just wanted to do my time and get out.

ALEADA MINTON: If you don’t complete all of your time, which I didn’t complete all of my enlisted time —

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Aleada Minton, a Coast Guard veteran.

ALEADA MINTON: — so even though they took out $200 out of my measly paychecks, it was money I just basically never saw again.

JAMES T. ”JOKER” DAVIS: [played by Matthew Modine] I wanted to see exotic Vietnam, the jewel of Southeast Asia. I wanted to meet interesting and stimulating people of an ancient culture — and kill them.

KEVIN RAMIREZ: We’ve seen a lot of movies about the military in Hollywood, like Pearl Harbor is a recent example, where they spend, like,
millions of dollars on this stuff to just, you know, get people looking at the military as something positive, something as being patriotic, as being protective, as being essential of, you know, their so-called freedoms within the United States.

CHAD PIECHOCKI: For myself, I was definitely influenced by the media growing up.

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Chad Piechocki, West Point Academy, Army.

CHAD PIECHOCKI: I was all for being the war hero. You know, Wyatt Earp and the Tombstone movies, I saw. That was great. You know, he goes out and fights for justice.

DERRICK FRANCIS: On television, you know, you see the use of guns, on television shows, in movies. You know, you hear a lot of praise for guns in, like, lyrics, song lyrics. And it’s not doing anything except perpetuating ideas of violence, ideas of hatred, of releasing aggression from yourself out into the world.

WALIDAH IMARISHA: And this is the same kind of mentality that I saw growing up on the bases.

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Walidah Imarisha. She was — lived and grew up on military bases.

WALIDAH IMARISHA: This just web of propaganda, pro-military propaganda, that does nothing but set up an us and them. You know, it’s not even — it’s not even we’re proud to be us. It’s we’re proud to be us because we can obliterate them.

MARINA INOUE: From childhood, war toys are bought and played with. If you teach a child to play with these kinds of — these kinds of toys that represent such a destructive thing, what are they going to think when they get older?

L.T. SMASH: That’s it. Protect the country.

GREG PAYTON: When you see film, they use subliminal subduction. They do whatever they can —

DERRICK FRANCIS: This is Greg Payton, a Vietnam Army veteran.

GREG PAYTON: — because they can’t take the chance of you having a weapon and not shooting the enemy.

LISA SIMPSON: Wait. What was that? Uncle Sam? Let me play this backwards.

RECRUITMENT VIDEO: Join the Navy. Join the Navy!

LISA SIMPSON: Huh! They’re recruiting people with subliminal messages!

MARINA INOUE: Mass media is infamous for engaging a pro-military influence on their audience. Images in movies, TV, magazines and news programs glorify the tactics waged in war, promoting soldiers as heroes, although one must question: What is it that makes government-sanctioned murder heroic and civilian murder criminal?

AMY GOODMAN: And you’ve been listening to an excerpt of the War Resisters League, Military Myths: I Want You! It is produced by Derrick Francis, who joins us in the studio. When we come back from our break, I’m sure we’ll have an interesting discussion as we are rejoined by Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills, director of Junior ROTC in Chicago Public Schools, and some Junior ROTC cadets. Stay with us.

[break]

AMY GOODMAN: “Stepping Razor,” the best of Peter Tosh, here on The War and Peace Report, the Exception to the Rulers. I’m Amy Goodman, as we talk about ROTC on campus. That’s Junior ROTC in high schools around the country. About a half a million kids are enrolled. We’re joined on the telephone from Chicago Public Schools director of Junior ROTC, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills, with cadets Tammi Jordan at Chicago Military Academy and Josefa Infante, who is with Farragut Academy there in Chicago. First, Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills, this is clearly — a video we just listened to called Military Myths: I Want You! — very critical of the militarization of the schools in the United States. What is your response?

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: I agree. I think it’s extremely critical. There is definitely an absence of those who are very positive on their service that they’ve — either in active duty now or have served in active duty in the past. So, I would ask him why we didn’t address that in [inaudible] —

AMY GOODMAN: It’s a little hard — it’s a little hard to understand you, because there’s so much background noise. Is that on your phone?

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: Yes, we have construction from ongoing in the site here.

AMY GOODMAN: It also sounds like a TV or something is on back there.

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: No, we don’t have TV on.

AMY GOODMAN: OK. So, repeat what you were saying.

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: What I was saying is, is that it is a very critical piece, and that, you know, why is it that those who are very positive on their military service, either past or present, haven’t been interviewed and asked for their opinion on it? I served for almost 25 years. I enjoyed my career thoroughly. I wouldn’t trade it away for anything. And I’m sure there are a lot of people out there who feel the same way. And I don’t understand why they weren’t given the opportunity to present their viewpoint and opinion.

AMY GOODMAN: Derrick Francis, the producer of Military Myths: I Want You!

DERRICK FRANCIS: Well, with this, with the large amount of military advertising and, you know, 212 ways to have a positive career in the military, we felt that, you know, it was a little bombarding as far as all the positive things you can do in the military, which is, you know, basically an organization designed to wage war and win. So, we decided to make this video to give youth alternatives and the other — like, the flip side of the coin, if I may, you know, to all of those positive aspects of the military, not just completely focusing on the negative, but just to give them more of a rounded view of, you know, what military life could be like.

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: That was rounded? I don’t think so.

DERRICK FRANCIS: You’re entitled to your opinion.

AMY GOODMAN: Cadet Tammi Jordan, can you tell us your response to hearing that video? Tammi, are you there?

TAMMI JORDAN: Yes, I’m here.

AMY GOODMAN: Could you hear the video? And what was your response?

TAMMI JORDAN: I was thinking that the way that the — the video’s perspective, I think it was an easy way to look out of the situation, because just because you join the military doesn’t mean that everything that you have in life will come free. I mean, you have to put everything into it, because you have to work hard also in order to get things out of life. That’s what I believe.

AMY GOODMAN: Josefa Infante, the theme, I think, of this video, that’s very much against recruiting in high schools, is that Junior ROTC exploits the desperation of inner-city schools, that there’s nothing else there, and when the military comes in and says they’re going to pour money into the schools and offer people who are not being offered any other future something, that that’s how they, you know, sort of are able to get entrenched in the schools. What is your thought on that?

JOSEFA INFANTE: Well, first of all, they’re not exploiting anybody. They’re just showing young people to be aware of what’s going around you, and they show you how to think for the future. JROTC is not all about just wanting to recruit new people to go into military. It’s also showing you to go into college, be aware of what benefits there are for people that are not able to pay for any loans, financial aid or, let alone, college. That is what JROTC is about. It’s not just on trying to recruit people to go into military and showing you the downfalls of everything. It’s also showing you, like, respect, how to help others and not just think about yourself.

AMY GOODMAN: Derrick Francis?

DERRICK FRANCIS: It’s funny you mention that. You know, I’m quite curious as to — you say, like, the military is also very interested in, you know, not just in enlisting youth straight out of high school, but in also getting them to go to college, you know, that they’re offering an avenue, you know, a way for youth to get themselves into college. Well, it’s funny, because they — you know, especially in recruiting, they use — you know, they tell you that they have a certain amount of money, like, say, like, $65,000,
available for, you know, a college tuition. And, quite frankly, like, you know, that’s an approximation. I don’t have my direct facts in front of me, but approximately only 35% of new enlistees in the military get any type of funding. And out of that, you know, an even smaller amount of approximately, like, 14% graduate with a four-year degree. So, I mean, it really depends on how much they’re telling you. You know, like, they can say, “All right, you know, JROTC is good. You know, like, these are going to be the things you need to help you, like, gain leadership.” Leadership is definitely something that’s — you know, that should be prevalent in all youth coming out of high school, because that’s something that builds confidence in the self, and that’s what you need — you know what I’m saying — in order to, like, guide yourself into where you want to go in life. But there are other — there are other ways to get to that point.

AMY GOODMAN: What are the alternatives?

DERRICK FRANCIS: I myself was — I had the fortune enough to find out about this one organization called Global Kids when I was in 10th grade. I was attending Thomas Jefferson High School out in East New York, Brooklyn, where I lived at the time. And it was very interesting because of the fact that, you know, like, there was the ROTC program, so there were always, you know, like, students walking around in their dressed blues, and it always seemed like something that they were very proud of. But, you know, like, I always had my issues with the military. And to be honest, I’m quite a pacifist. You know, I don’t like violence at all. But at the same time, you know, I knew that wasn’t something I needed to get involved in. And I had a — I had a pretty nice average, so, you know, I wound up joining up with Global Kids, and that is an organization that’s based around getting youth more aware of their power in politics, that they do have more of a voice, a collective voice, as well as an individual one. And they do leadership workshops, workshops breaking down stereotypes amongst different constituents who live in this city. They also work abroad in other lands. I myself had the chance to travel twice to Europe, to go and do workshops over there with youth from around the world. So, you know, it really all depends on, you know, what you’re being exposed to in your environment, what programs are being allowed into the schools, therefore these youth are privy to these — you know, to such cool things. Like, I was able to do all that, and, you know, I’ve never once thought about joining the military or, you know, seen that as one way I can get into school.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills, as director of Junior ROTC: Do you find when there are, you know, movies that show the military in a very good light — now you have this relationship that is further developing between Hollywood and the Bush administration, for example, you have Black Hawk Down that’s about to be released tomorrow night — that that increases recruitment possibilities in high schools?

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: I haven’t seen any statistical data that would say otherwise. I know that since September 11th, there’s been an increased interest in the military, but no increase in overall recruitment as a result of that significant event that occurred. You know, if we’re going to talk about Hollywood, let’s look at all the other movies out there and what their themes and what they’re promoting, and I don’t think it’s going to make one difference or the other as far as if it’s a military movie or otherwise.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think —

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: But I would like to address the issue — there was a statement made about pouring out money, and I don’t necessarily agree with that. I mean, if you do some research, it indicates that out of all the federal agencies, the DOD spends probably less on this program for at-risk kids than other DOD agencies — I’m sorry, other agencies within the government.

AMY GOODMAN: Is Rick Jahnkow still there?

RICK JAHNKOW: Oh, yeah.

AMY GOODMAN: Your response to that, with Project YANO, Youth and Nonmilitary Opportunities?

RICK JAHNKOW: Well, I’m not sure about the budget figures, but I don’t consider Junior ROTC as an effective outreach or at-risk program. The military’s purpose is not to help at-risk kids. Its purpose is to fight wars and to train people to fight those wars.

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: I disagree with that.

RICK JAHNKOW: So, I mean, that’s — that’s the whole underlying purpose of having a Department of Defense. They didn’t create that to go out and help inner-city kids go to college. What I think happened is that the Department of Defense wanted to get deeper, have a deeper presence in schools and in young people’s lives, and so they came up with window dressing to make it more acceptable to be involved to a greater extent. So, they use phrases and terms like “leadership training” and “character building” and “citizenship” as a way to do that. The fact is that there’s been no evidence, no valid evidence, that Junior ROTC, for example, has done anything to improve the dropout rate. And the reason that that’s the case is that whenever they come up with statistics, the Junior ROTC program does not include the students who have dropped out of Junior ROTC after they were in it for a while. They focus on the students who are in the program when they become seniors and graduate. And they also leave out the fact that Junior ROTC screens cadets and rejects students who, in their mind, would be risky academically. I mean, it’s right in their materials that they’re supposed to do that. So, to call it an at-risk program, I think, is really stretching things. I think it’s a cover. And let’s face it, what it really is there to do is to indoctrinate. There’s no — there’s no explanation for why the military feels it can go in and teach history and civics and English and speech and health, when there are other programs doing those things in our schools, when there are teachers who have credentials to do those things. To bring in ROTC or Junior ROTC to do those things is just — it doesn’t fit. There’s no logic in it, unless it is, in fact, just to give the Pentagon more involvement in young people’s lives so it can influence the way they think.

AMY GOODMAN: Lieutenant Colonel Mills?

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: Well, I would like to address that by citing what was in David’s article. He referenced a 1999 study from the Center of Strategic International Studies in that. Is David still on the line?

AMY GOODMAN: No, he isn’t.

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: OK. Well, he cited that in the article, and it kind of led to a negative conclusion to the readers, but yet that study was extremely positive and favorable to JROTC. And I would like to read a conclusion. It’s published in that study as a result of their findings. “Our overall findings is that JROTC indeed is beneficial to communities. It strengthens our youth, our communities and our nation. The program should steadily expand and provide the requisite resources. For the armed forces, JROTC’s importance lies not in its effect on recruitment, but in its role as a bridge between military and civil society in an era when these two elements tend to diverge. This does not mean that JROTC promotes some sort of militaristic anti-individualism. On the contrary, JROTC seeks to nurture individualism in the service of a common cause.”

AMY GOODMAN: Well —

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: And that was out of a study that David Goodman quoted in his article in such a way that led you to believe that it was not a positive program or did not produce positive results. And also in that study, it summarizes some of the statistical data that was gathered in Chicago in the JROTC program, and it summarizes with this: “In sum, within a population that can be classified as having significantly higher number of at-risk students than the normal nationality — than the normal nationally, sustained membership in the JROTC program over several years pays off. Classroom performance and other objective measures of behavior at school reach to or beyond the average in individual schools.” So, their conclusions were that the statistics that they found over a four-year period here was that the JROTC program in Chicago Public Schools was not only favorable, but produced scholarly-like achievements and results.

AMY GOODMAN: Derrick Francis, you’re itching to respond.

DERRICK FRANCIS: Yeah. You said that the JROTC improves, you know, leadership in the individual, and it has been proven to show improvements in the community. Now, what —

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: I’m only reading a quote from a study that was done.

DERRICK FRANCIS: I understand that. Now, but you’re saying you stand firmly behind that at the same time. I’m taking the adverse position and saying that, no, like, I don’t see any JROTC students going into, like, the community that I used to live in in East New York and building any more schools or rectifying any gardens or renovating any of those, like, old lots that are just all over the place that the children play in. What’s up with that? You know what I mean? Like, when it really comes down to it, the military is nothing more than — I believe you even denied the fact that they were — the military is here to fight and win wars.

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: No, I denied the fact that JROTC was about that.

DERRICK FRANCIS: All right, but what’s JROTC for? JROTC is to do nothing more than recruit the — recruit high school students straight out of high school into the military. I mean, like, yeah, what — all right, if they don’t — if they say, “No, I’m not interested in the military. I just want to join JROTC for these few credits that you’re going to give me in high school,” I’m sure, you know, like, you’ll probably still take them into the program. But then, at the same time — you know what I mean? — it’s like they’re — I’m sure, like, you’re not looking at them as, like, “OK, you know, let me take this cat, because he’s interested. He’s got fire in his belly. He wants to go fight and kill people.” You know what I mean? When it comes down to it, the military wants to enlist children and youth in rural communities to enlist in the lowest ranks in the military, you know. And this, like, is just — it’s kind of ill, like, for me to sit here and listen to you, you know, quote from this book and, like, you know, I mean — 

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: I’m just using a book that was quoted by David Goodman in his article.

AMY GOODMAN: We’ve only got 15 seconds.

DERRICK FRANCIS: OK, well.

AMY GOODMAN: Rick Jahnkow?

LT. COL. RICK MILLS: He used it to substantiate his thoughts.

AMY GOODMAN: Let’s end with Rick Jahnkow in California.

RICK JAHNKOW: Well, again, there’s no time for it, but I think people have to look at the content of the curriculum to really understand the nature of this program and how it goes even beyond recruiting. I think the consequences that we all need to consider is that this kind of indoctrination has long-term effects on society, on the political climate, and it goes — it goes well beyond even just the issue of war and peace. And this is something that progressive-minded people need to consider and look into.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, on that note, I want to thank everyone for having joined us, Cadet Tammi Jordan; Lieutenant Colonel Rick Mills, director of Junior ROTC; Zach London, student at Albany High School; Rick Jahnkow; Derrick Francis in the studio with us, producer of the War Resisters League film that’s called Military Myths: I Want You!; as well as Josefa Infante of Farragut Academy.

That does it for the program. Democracy Now! in Exile is produced by Lizzy Ratner, Kris Abrams, Miranda Kennedy and Brad Simpson. Anthony Sloan is our music maestro and engineer. We’re broadcasting from Downtown Community Television. Thanks to Manhattan Neighborhood Network, as well as KPFA, Aimée Pomerleau and KFCF and all the Pacifica affiliates. We are Pacifica. From the embattled studios — or, in exile from the embattled studios of BAI, I’m Amy Goodman. Thanks for listening.

[End of Hour 1]

AMY GOODMAN: From Ground Zero Radio, this is Democracy Now! in Exile.

MICHAEL PARENTI: We should not or the U.S. leaders should not try to be owning and controlling the planet. That’s why we’re so hated. I mean, you could have a country that has a foreign policy that pushes for international agreements, for cooperation. Why don’t we — why don’t we respect a nuclear freeze? Why don’t we sign on to the landmines bill?

AMY GOODMAN: Today, a speech by Michael Parenti. All that and more, coming up.

Welcome to The War and Peace Report. I’m Amy Goodman.

According to U.S. officials, Taliban and al-Qaeda prisoners will be held at the U.S. naval base at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, as the Pentagon considers whether to use military tribunals to try them. Although President Bush has authorized military tribunals to try so-called terrorist suspects from other countries, War Secretary Donald Rumsfeld claims the military has made no plans yet to hold such tribunals at Guantánamo. The U.S. is currently holding 45 prisoners in and near Afghanistan, interrogating them about Osama bin Laden’s whereabouts and trying to determine which ones should be brought to trial. Guantánamo was used by the U.S. military in the early 1990s to house HIV-positive Haitian refugees seeking asylum in the United States. Ultimately, it was closed down on humanitarian grounds.

Meanwhile, Afghanistan is demanding the U.S. halt its bombing, possibly within days, since almost all remaining hideouts of Taliban and Osama bin Laden have been destroyed. The demand comes as U.S. warplanes killed as many as 40 civilians yesterday in a village that the U.S. military claimed was home to members of al-Qaeda.

And the Financial Times is reporting the U.S. military is offering allied Afghan troops a wide range of incentives, including cash payments and cold weather clothing, in a new effort to get the local forces to comb through Tora Bora caves for clues to the whereabouts of bin Laden. General Richard Myers, chair of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff, said that while the search in Tora Bora is currently being carried out by local Afghans and U.S. Special Forces, he has not ruled out the use of hundreds of U.S. Marines to assist in the hunt. Rumsfeld denied reports that the use of local forces in the region was due to U.S. fears the cave complexes are too dangerous for a planned contingent of 500 Marines.

As Washington assessed the latest video from Osama bin Laden, Afghan officials claimed yesterday the world’s number one fugitive had fled their country and taken refuge in Pakistan. The claim came amid signs of mounting trouble for the U.S. hunt for bin Laden. An Afghan Defense Ministry spokesperson in Kabul insisted bin Laden, who has a $25 million price on his head, is now under the protection of supporters of a radical Islamist leader in Pakistan who helped create the Taliban regime. The report was quickly dismissed by the leader in question, Maulana Fazal-ur-Rehman, head of the Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam party. Donald Rumsfeld also dismissed the claim, the latest in a string of reports on where the elusive al-Qaeda leader might be hiding. According to the Afghan Islamic Press, bin Laden stayed in the Tora Bora area of eastern Afghanistan until about a month ago, before fleeing to an unknown destination. A senior Afghanistan intelligence officer has said bin Laden was spotted in a remote border village inside Pakistan. Some recent Pakistani press reports, however, have said bin Laden died two weeks ago from a serious lung ailment.

The Israeli Defense Minister Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, whose uncompromising stance towards the Palestinian uprising has earned him a reputation as a hard-liner, yesterday took over the leadership of a divided and weakened Labor Party. Yossi Beilin, former Labor justice minister and architect of the Oslo Peace Accords, said of Ben-Eliezer, quote, “The man is fighting against the left and is overtaking Sharon from the right.” He hoped his leadership would be temporary. The outcome was, however, positive for the Israeli prime minister, who would have faced a likely Labor withdrawal had Ben-Eliezer’s rival, Avraham Burg, the Knesset speaker, won the party election.

And Zambians defied expectations of a low turnout and queued in thousands to cast their vote in yesterday’s presidential and parliamentary elections, the most fiercely contested in the country’s history. The vote will bring to an end 10 years of rule by President Frederick Chiluba, whose choice of an election day during the rainy season and the Christmas holidays was criticized by many as a deliberate attempt to convert voter apathy into a low turnout at the polls. The strongest challenges to the ruling party are posed by Christon Tembo, a former general who heads the newly formed Forum for Democracy and Development, and Anderson Mazoka of the United Party for National Development, a millionaire businessman who vows to turn Zambia’s economy around. Tilyenji Kaunda of the United National Independence Party is also running. He’s the son of Kenneth Kaunda, who ruled the country for 27 years before being ousted by Chiluba.