AMY GOODMAN: This is Democracy Now!, democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González.

As the Trump administration slashes spending on healthcare and scientific research, we end today’s show looking at the long-term impacts of Trump’s anti-science agenda as scientists look to take their research overseas.

For more, we’re joined by Robert Hunziker, environmental journalist whose new piece for Dissident Voice is headlined “America’s Great Brain Drain.”

Explain what exactly what this is, Robert. Thanks for being with us.

ROBERT HUNZIKER: Well, it’s just what it says it is. That’s that the Trump administration is chasing our scientists out of the country across the board. Whether it’s in the entire apparatus of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services or if it’s in the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, it doesn’t matter. They’re firing people. They’re moving them to lesser positions. They’re moving them from, say, Baltimore to a remote location in Idaho so that they won’t appreciate their job any longer. And we’re having a massive drain of, really, the smartest, brightest people that we need to confront health problems in this country.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And, Robert Hunziker — 

ROBERT HUNZIKER: And they’re going to Europe. Yeah.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Robert, in your article, you mentioned that at the same time that the federal government is cutting funding for science, the European Union, Canada, Australia are increasing the amount of money that they’re devoting to scientific research to actually lure American scientists to those countries. Can you talk about that, as well?

ROBERT HUNZIKER: Yeah, absolutely. President Ursula von der Leyen of the EU has dedicated another half-billion dollars to their research agencies to bring specifically U.S. scientists, educators and academics to the EU. President Macron of France has done the same thing, specifically to bring U.S. scientists to France. And now Germany is doing it, and now Spain has jumped on the bandwagon. And now China is doing the same thing. And they’re saying, for any Chinese-born or Chinese American scientist, “We’re opening up an avenue for you, and we’re going to provide grants and pay for you to come.”

So, we’re draining our scientific talent, and it’s on the way out. You know, Nature, which is the leading journal for science in this country, did just a random poll of 1,600 respondents, and 75% of them said, “We’re looking to go overseas now.” So, we’re draining one of the most valuable assets we’ve got in the country.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And what’s a long-term impact of this brain drain? What will it be for the United States?

ROBERT HUNZIKER: Well, it’s going to be very, very serious when it comes to the healthcare area. If you look, for example, at the — well, let me give you an example of a massive misallocation of resources. And I think this is a point I really want to make. If you look at the HHS, which is the Health and Human Services Department, run by Kennedy, $1.8 trillion budget, within that, you’ve got Medicare, Medicaid, those kind of things, and there’s some other agencies, as well, that are crucial to the health of this country — for example, the FDA, the Center for Disease Control and the NIH, National Institutes of Health.

Those agencies, essentially, are the Department of Defense for the interior of this country. They really are. They prevent epidemics or stop them once they come. They are the Department of Defense for the interior of the country, much as the Pentagon is the Department of Defense to protect enemies from raiding our country. While we haven’t had an invasion since Pearl Harbor, they’re getting $850 billion for the Pentagon, and they want to add $100 billion, Trump does, to that.

Meanwhile, let’s go over and look on the interior side of defense. And what’s happened here is you had 103 million people that were infected five years ago with COVID, and 1.2 million of those people died. But guess what. There’s a miracle that happened. A miracle that happened. And that’s this. The NIH — and their budget is being cut 40% by Trump, by the way — the NIH brought a vaccine within one year. That had never happened before. The fastest vaccine that had ever been brought to this country previously was in the 1960s for mumps, and it took four years.

So, you want to cut the agency that saved literally millions of lives by bringing this vaccine within a record time of one year — you want to cut them by 40%. And you’re thinking about maybe adding another $100 billion to an $850 billion budget, where we haven’t had one enemy attack to this country since Pearl Harbor. I think that, you know, this is like going down the rabbit hole and having lunch with the Mad Hatter. That’s how insane this has become.

AMY GOODMAN: Let me ask you, Robert. The Trump administration charged the highly skilled Harvard scientist Kseniia Petrova with criminal felony smuggling charges for failing to declare frog samples when she returned to the U.S. in February, usually seen as a minor infraction. She has been detained in an ICE jail in Louisiana and says she faces political persecution if deported to Russia over her protest against the invasion of Ukraine. Her work could lead to major advances in early cancer detection. If you can talk about what message is being sent by Kseniia’s detention, the message to scientists, the students that are being detained around the country, the message to international students coming here that they might not only be deported, but imprisoned?

ROBERT HUNZIKER: Yeah, well, it’s a pretty horrible message, isn’t it? I mean, that’s the only way to look at it. And it’s really — I guess you’ve just got to say we’re at the point where this is kind of the epitome of fascism. You know, you look at Huxley’s Brave New World, and I’ll just read a quick, little quickie sentence: “But truth’s a menace, science is a public danger.” “Science is a public danger.” Science is a public danger because it seeks the truth. And here’s an administration that can’t handle seeking the truth. And the circumstance you just talked about is all about that, isn’t it?

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And your sense — your advice to scientists who are now facing the recruitment efforts of Europe and Canada and Australia, and versus the cuts of the Trump administration?

ROBERT HUNZIKER: Well, I don’t think they have any choice. They’ve got to take these grants. You know, their current positions are being demolished, when you take a 40% haircut for the National Institutes of Health, which is the crown jewel of biomedical research in the United States. It’s the crown jewel. The crown jewel. Ninety-nine percent of the drugs that are approved by the FDA come directly as a result of the National Institutes of Health. And we have fired thousands of scientists there already, demoted the key people. They’re going to head out and go to Europe. You know, if we had a pandemic tomorrow, think of the issue we’d be in. And there’s some of the — some of the fired employees, who remain anonymous, have said, “If we have another pandemic, we’re screwed.”

AMY GOODMAN: And not to mention Russia, China. I think Australia talked about the great America brain drain as the great America brain gain for other countries.

ROBERT HUNZIKER: And that’s exactly what it is. It’s a brain gain for China, for Spain, for France, for Germany, on a — and Canada, too, and, by the way, also Australia. So, they’re all jumping on the bandwagon. And I guess we’ll just have a dumbed-down society. That’s where we’re headed. And I’m not so sure, but with — certain segments of it are already right there already.

AMY GOODMAN: I want to thank you so much —

ROBERT HUNZIKER: It’s Kennedy.

AMY GOODMAN: — for being with us, Robert Hunziker. We are going to link to your piece for Dissident Voice, “America’s Great Brain Drain,” as well as your other articles around the issue of the climate catastrophe.

That does it for our broadcast. A happy birthday to Tey-Marie Astudillo! Democracy Now! is currently accepting applications for a director of technology, as well as a director of audience. You can learn more and apply at democracynow.org.

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If you want to sign up for our daily digest, our newsletter, go to democracynow.org. I’m Amy Goodman, with Juan González. Thanks so much for joining us.