AMY GOODMAN: You are listening to Democracy Now! I’m Amy Goodman. Earlier in the show, you heard from two women who have taken on Dow Chemical in Dow’s home state of Michigan. We now turn to the most well-known group of dioxin victims: Vietnam veterans. They’ve taken on the corporate giant, as well as their government, that bought tons of Dow’s Agent Orange, spraying it all over Vietnam, its people, plants and animals, as well as thousands of American soldiers. Two of those soldiers join us now. Hank Erb is a Vietnam veteran, as is George Claxton, national chair of the Agent Orange/Dioxin Committee of Vietnam Veterans of America. Last week, a major study was released linking Agent Orange-exposed soldiers to spina bifida in their children. George Claxton, what’s the significance of this study?

GEORGE CLAXTON: It was out of the National Academy of Sciences, which is not a governmental agency. It actually was a review of scientific literature, not a study. The review did find suggestive evidence of an association between birth defects and the children of Vietnam veterans exposed to Agent Orange.

Now, the significance of this goes far beyond any scientific study on Agent Orange that has ever been produced, and there’s a reason for it. The chemical industry and paper industry have said for years that you can never prove that dioxin or Agent Orange causes birth defects in veterans’ children, simply because of the fact that the female wasn’t exposed. Well, this study proves, to a certain degree, that they’re wrong, because, number one, the birth defects that they’re talking about here are paternally mediated birth defects. Ninety-nine-point-nine times out of 100, it was the male Vietnam veteran that was exposed in Vietnam. That veteran came back and impregnated his wife or girlfriend, and the result was a child with spina bifida.

That being the case, then one would have to say that for the first time, the government is admitting — or, an agency hired by the government is admitting that, in fact, in fact, children with spina bifida can be associated with father’s exposure to Agent Orange. That, in itself, is more significant than any study on dioxin ever produced. And I’m sure that industry, particularly the chemistry and just chemical industry, will do everything they can to try to negate the results of that. But the animal studies are conclusive on it, and the suggestive evidence, I’d say, is quite strong. So, it’s really — it’s really a door that’s been opened, a very large door.

AMY GOODMAN: Were you exposed to Agent Orange?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Well, yes, I was, my first year. My second year in Vietnam, I may not have been exposed. It’s possible. My first year, I was clearly exposed.

AMY GOODMAN: Have you felt any adverse health effects from that?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Oh yeah. Well, they thought I had colon cancer. It almost was, in fact, colon cancer and ended up as a colitis. And, of course, I’ve had a number of neurological problems, including some memory problems.

AMY GOODMAN: And has the Veterans Administration dealt with you fairly on it, would you say?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Oh no. You see, you’ve got to be careful when you talk about the VA. The VA can only compensate for illnesses if the hierarchy, the high structure of the VA, decides to make rules for compensation on Agent Orange-related diseases. And they’ve only made rules for 10 diseases so far. And colitis is not, or neuro — well, neurological problems are, in fact, one now. They just — or they will be. The National Academy of Sciences did admit that a certain sort of transient peripheral neuropathy is associated with Agent Orange exposure, so it’s possible they may compensate for that now. We’ll have to wait and see.

AMY GOODMAN: And George Claxton is national chair of the Agent Orange/Dioxin Committee of Vietnam Veterans of America. As I said, we’re also joined by Hank Erb. Hank, you, too, were exposed to Agent Orange in Vietnam.

HANK ERB: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: Where do you live now?

HANK ERB: In Colorado.

AMY GOODMAN: Has the U.S. government acknowledged that you are an Agent Orange victim?

HANK ERB: Not at all, no. It goes back. Some of the documentation on this goes back on me 15 and 20 years, and it’s been a constant denial by the DA — or, VA. There was a study by the Texas Department of Health and the University of Texas in the early ’80s which determined, from my immune system damage and some of the other damage they found and the spraying records, the herbs tapes by the Army, the record of their spraying, that I was one of the 13 worst-exposed veterans in the state of Texas.

AMY GOODMAN: What has that meant? What kind of compensation have you received?

HANK ERB: Absolutely none. The entire time, I’ve had to pay my own doctor bills and have — the VA has not recognized that, because it’s not on their list that their rules recognize.

AMY GOODMAN: So, when you hear politicians, when you hear, for example, the presidential candidates going around the country, talking about how proud they are of soldiers, what do you think?

HANK ERB: I think they’re proud to send them, but they’re not too proud when we come back, to take care of them.

AMY GOODMAN: So, what do you say to these candidates, Republican or Democrat?

HANK ERB: Well, it’s obvious that something has to be done. There has to be a reasonable doubt or something that will help people, because this has been going on not only with the Agent Orange vets, but the atomic veterans. My father died from radiation exposure in Nagasaki, and there was no recognition of that. We have the Gulf War syndrome veterans. Nothing is apparently moving on that. So it seems to be a pattern of denial and no help.

AMY GOODMAN: George Claxton, has the Vietnam Veterans of America made any demands of — well, for example, how has President Clinton responded to the whole Agent Orange situation?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Well, I’m not sure how President Clinton has responded. My bylaws and charter refrain me from commenting about certain — about politicians. But I think the administration has taken — on the whole, has taken a worthwhile view towards it. But the problem isn’t politicians. The problem is misinformation. The chemical industry and paper industry, particularly, are good at giving the government and giving politicians misinformation. For instance, when the Agent Orange payment program closed down last year, the next thing that happened was politicians were being told that the Agent Orange issue was over. Well, all you have to do is look at the National Academy of Sciences review a couple days ago, and you know it’s not over at all. It’s just begun. But this is the type of misinformation the Congress receives. And when Congress receives it, we literally have to let the world know that that type of information is wrong, that the real information on dioxin and Agent Orange is that we have to move forward on it.

AMY GOODMAN: Have any politicians championed your cause, any congressmembers, senators?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Yes, yes, there were some.

AMY GOODMAN: Who?

GEORGE CLAXTON: In fact, a lot of them — a lot of them had, once they had the facts in front of them. I’m not going to — you know, obviously, there’s been some. I know Senator Daschle was one of them. A lot more. But as I say, it depends whether they see it as a priority, whether they have the information in front of them. If they don’t, you can’t expect them to do anything.

AMY GOODMAN: Even when they do have the information in front of them, when they’re dealing with such powerful corporations as Dow, and we know how money works in the political system and who gets their issues voted on in the way they want, would you really say it’s an issue of misinformation?

GEORGE CLAXTON: I think misinformation has a big part in it. As for political influence, well, you know, I mean, the industry has lobbyists. There’s no question about that. I’m not — I’m not going to get caught in a situation of saying that, you know, politicians are influenced in a wrong way to vote against something. I think it has a lot more to do with misinformation. But it’s clear there are — the big industry has lobbyists out there, and they have a lot of money. There’s no question about it. They, if for no other reason, have the ability to produce misinformation in a vast amount. I think that’s — that really is a lot more to it. I don’t think — I don’t think it’s just that politicians are — I don’t think politicians are told that, “Hey, we know this is wrong, but do it anyways.” I don’t think that’s it. I think it has a lot to do with misinformation, a lot to do with it.

AMY GOODMAN: Hank Erb, how do you feel when you see a Dow commercial on TV? They’re usually those kind of feel-good commercials about a father and son, or about how Dow has improved life in America today.

HANK ERB: They upset me quite a bit. I was involved with the lawsuit, the veterans’ lawsuit, with the chemical companies, so I know what the outcome of that was. It was a $180 million settlement. And I think the public thinks that, well, we’re all rich now. But, in fact, I was part of the largest settlement group in that lawsuit, and what that amounted to was a little over $800 a year for five or six years. And that was it.

AMY GOODMAN: Eight hundred dollars a year for five or six years?

HANK ERB: That’s right. And I see this pattern in other people, too, like the breast implant people recently had Dow Chemical funding studies that were released before the court decision on them, and then a branch of Dow Chemical, Dow Corning, going bankrupt in order to not pay the people. So, this has gone on for decades, and they still seem to be able to get away with this manipulation, as far as I’m concerned.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you expect things to change? Do you think political — I mean, do you think Republican or Democratic administrations make a difference on this issue?

HANK ERB: Not really. It seems to stay the same, no matter what the administration’s party is. Hopefully, there will be a change. Hopefully, this is a new day for this issue, that things are beginning to change. Maybe people are becoming more aware of the real dangers of dioxin in their environment, not just veterans, but everybody. And hopefully, things will change, and something will happen.

AMY GOODMAN: Speaking of dioxin, I mean, George Claxton, your committee is called the Agent Orange/Dioxin Committee, and you’re dealing with the issue of dioxin. When you’re exposed to dioxin, a Vietnam vet that’s already been exposed to Agent Orange, are you more vulnerable?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Yes, it’s led to probably a dozen different things happening with me. The immune system damage has led to autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, which is a lymphatic cancer. I have infections, external, internal, conditions arising from a mix of these conditions.

AMY GOODMAN: This is all from the Agent Orange exposure.

GEORGE CLAXTON: Yes, it’s — basically, all that can be traced to the immune system damage. And the EPA basically says the immune system damage is caused by dioxin. So, we have one government agency saying it is, we have other government agencies saying it isn’t. They can’t seem to get together on this.

AMY GOODMAN: What does Dow admit at this point?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Nothing that I can tell. I have seen some chemical foundations or organizations that are funded by the chemical companies who are making some very outrageous statements. One I recently saw said that the only effects of dioxin was a transitory rash. You know, in this day and age, with all the study that’s been done, with even the EPA and other organizations acknowledging these studies, that’s an incredible statement.

AMY GOODMAN: This, your committee, the Agent Orange/Dioxin Committee of Vietnam Veterans of America, does this mean that you’re going beyond Agent Orange now, calling it dioxin/Agent Orange? Or do you call it dioxin/Agent Orange because it’s the dioxin that has hurt you?

GEORGE CLAXTON: You have to understand a couple of things. I think the chemical companies knew right from the start — they certainly knew in the '50s — that 2,4,5-T had a byproduct. And it was chlorinated. It was very, very toxic. And, of course, it was dioxin. Dioxin has always been the issue. Keep in mind that the — also, that you're talking about more than one dioxin, but you’re usually talking about the 2,3,7,8 isomer, which is by far the most toxic. There are, in fact, 74 other dioxins and 134 difurans, just to start off with. So, the magnitude of the problem goes far, far beyond what most people realize.

Sure, we’re dealing with more than just Agent Orange. We need support. We need to get at the truth of what dioxin has done. And we’re not going to be able to get at the truth alone. And we can’t — we can’t win compensation and win the truth simply by staying alone. We have an obligation to others. We have an obligation to other soldiers. We have an obligation to humanity to get at the truth of this situation. That goes far beyond the Agent Orange issue, no question about that. I’m not afraid to admit it.

AMY GOODMAN: So, what are you calling for now?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Well, of course, number one, we’re calling for research in certain areas where there hasn’t been research, including research in Vietnam. We’re calling for compensation on at least 25 different illnesses, including birth defects. And, of course, we’re calling on the truth and getting at the complete truth in what dioxin does, particularly with its hormonal effects. It goes very, very far. It includes many illnesses and includes reproductive problems. And I think the studies in Japan and Taiwan show that, too, where people were exposed to PCBs. And they even show it in Michigan a little bit, from the farmers that were exposed to polybrominated biphenyls, too, although Michigan doesn’t want to admit that.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you think dioxin should be eradicated, an end to incineration, an end to chlorine-based chemicals?

GEORGE CLAXTON: Well, incineration is your biggest producer of dioxin, particularly medical incinerators. There has to be a better method for disposing of chlorine waste, particularly dioxins and difurans. And there are better ways. There’s no perfect way. The perfect way is to not produce it in the first place. And until industry is convinced that there are better, more practical and even more economic methods, they’re going to do it. And we’re the only ones that are going to stop them.

AMY GOODMAN: George Claxton is chair of the Agent Orange/Dioxin Committee of Vietnam Veterans of America. Hank Erb is also a Vietnam vet. Both were poisoned by Agent Orange during the war. For more information on dioxin and other toxins, you can call the Citizens’ Clearinghouse for Hazardous Waste at 703-237-2249. Democracy Now! is produced by Julie Drizin, engineered by Ken Mason. Thanks to Peter Bochan and Errol Maitland for getting us the music on the show. It’s called “Agent Orange” by Depeche Mode. We’d like to welcome KVMR in Nevada City. For a taped copy of the show, call 1-800-735-0230. I’m Amy Goodman for Democracy Now!