AMY GOODMAN: And you’re listening to Pacifica Radio’s Democracy Now!, The Exception to the Rulers. I’m Amy Goodman, here with Juan González, and we are broadcasting from the Independent Media Center in downtown Philadelphia on the third day of the Republican National Convention. We’re joined right now by a protester and his father. That’s right. We’re joined by Steve and Rick Beltram. Steve Beltram is here in Philadelphia to protest the Republican National Convention. His father, Rick Beltram, a Republican delegate from South Carolina.

We welcome you both to Democracy Now!

RICK BETRAM: Thank you.

STEVE BELTRAM: Thanks.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, I don’t know which one of you to begin with first. Steve, let’s begin with you. What brought you up from South Carolina?

STEVE BELTRAM: I came because I think that we need to bring the message to the streets and to the people and to the Republicans that corporate control of politics is something that we’re not going to stand for anymore, and that we need to stop the death penalty, and we need to stop corporate globalization and many other issues.

AMY GOODMAN: And let me ask you, Rick: Are you proud of your son?

RICK BETRAM: I’m very proud. I’m glad he was able to come up here. The First Amendment right to have free speech is very important in my book. I think the Republican Party has demonstrated so far in our two nights that we are a big party, we’re an inclusive party, and that we do tolerate folks that have different opinions. And I think it’s — not only do you see it from the big stage, but you see it here, father and son, a microcosm of the big story.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, I’m interested in what some of the conversation was at the dinner table back home in the days before you came here, and where mom stands on the issues.

RICK BETRAM: Mom stands as a spectator on the sidelines. And then we have a younger sister at home also, and she likes to get involved in the conversations, too. But since I became chairman of the Republican Party, obviously, there have been lots of opportunities to go to debates, forums with candidates, and I’ve dragged along the family with us. And I’ve always asked them to listen carefully, understand the issues and decide what candidates you think have the right message or don’t have the right message. And Steven, listening to those and doing his own research, listening to your organization on the internet, and some school work that he’s done, has allowed him to understand the issues and make certain declarations of where he believes he is at age 17.

AMY GOODMAN: Let’s take on some of those issues and hear from both of you. Steve, you mentioned the death penalty. A lot of yesterday’s protest was around that. What are your thoughts?

STEVE BELTRAM: I think it’s time we stop the death penalty. I understand that the United States stopped it for quite a while and brought it back. And I think that was a ridiculous move, because murder is murder. And state murder is sending the wrong message to people. It’s not going to stop people from killing others, and so let’s stop trying to teach people not to kill by killing. That’s just not logical.

AMY GOODMAN: Dad? Rick Beltram?

RICK BETRAM: Well, I believe we have to separate what we learn in the Bible from what we see on Earth, in the sense meaning that a sin with the heinous crime of first-degree murder is something that is a sin against man. I firmly believe that somebody can commit that sin against man and still make it right with Christ and go to heaven, although the penalty on Earth is something that must be done. There’s a consequence of your actions. And you must remember that a first-degree murder, people live with those laws and understand ahead of time that before they premeditate that murder, they understand the consequences. So, although it’s sad to see the executions, the folks that are going through that understood the consequences well before they committed the act.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: The war on drugs, we just had a group of mothers here and children of incarcerated people who’ve fallen under this vast expansion of the war on drugs, and they told the stories of how they’re separated from their loved ones for years, one woman whose brother was sentenced to 27 years for a first offense on a drug conspiracy case. What about the war on drugs and its impact on many American families, how both you and your son feel about that?

RICK BETRAM: Well, drugs, drugs is a very big problem. It’s an evil in our society. I would like to see, before I make any declaration of this woman with a first offense, 27 years, to see exactly what the details are, because in most cases, there’s a lot more details than what’s being brought forward. And just like with my son here, it’s been very, very important that the marches that he participated in were such that they were far away from any kind of violence. He and I have been on contact with cellphones constantly, because if you’re out there looking to get into a dangerous situation, a lot of times problems will come to you. And I’ve asked him to stay away from those dangerous situations. Some people have asked me in the media, “Did you tell him not to get arrested?” I said that’s not what I told him. What I told him was stay away from trouble, because when you get near trouble, you could get hurt, or, in fact, you could end up in jail. And just listening earlier to these folks in jail, a lot of the folks here that are ending up in jail are not here for causes. They’re here as professional protesters trying to get themselves in trouble. And I think that’s a total separation from what my son is doing, who has some firm convictions on certain issues, like yesterday with the death penalty, where the Quakers had a forum. They fed him lunch. That’s a wonderful way of demonstrating your disagreement on certain things.

AMY GOODMAN: Rick? Steve?

STEVE BELTRAM: Yeah, back to the war on drugs, I think that it’s time we stop the war on drugs. I don’t use drugs. I don’t support drug use. But I do think that illegalizing it and making it a criminal problem rather than a medical problem, drug addiction, is defeating the purpose. It puts drug addicts in jail, which many times worsens the situation, not to mention the fact that, you know, because of this war on drugs, we’re deploying troops in Colombia right now. And that’s just crazy. So I think it’s time we stop, we stop destroying the inner city by supporting this black market.

AMY GOODMAN: What about that issue of professional protesters, Steve?

STEVE BELTRAM: Well, I think that most of the people that were arrested, I’m not so sure, were professional protesters. I wouldn’t say that. I think the professional protesters have a place. You know, we need leaders. We need people that have been working with the system. But I’m not sure that most of the people arrested were doing that as their job. I disagree with you on that.

AMY GOODMAN: Do you always talk so calmly about these issues, the two of you?

RICK BELTRAM: Yeah, usually.

STEVE BELTRAM: Mm-hmm.

RICK BELTRAM: I mean, we debate issues. We have a little saying between us that we’re going to disagree on issues, but not be disagreeable. And that’s how it goes. But you have to understand that the gentleman that flanks my son here is Warren Mowry, who’s the chairman of the Greenville County party, and I’m the chairman of the Spartanburg County party. And the two of us have — we’re roommates, actually, here at the convention also. And both of us have talked, and we both agree that having open conversation, just like here on the air, is very, very important to all Americans. And I think you’re really finding that the Republican Party is now bringing forth a softer rhetoric, kind of rounding out the edges, not changing our platform, but certainly being much more open to this kind of conversation, allowing whether it’s a 17-year-old or a hippie leftover from the '60s to have full access of conversation. And I really want your listeners to understand the Republican Party is really going to demonstrate openness like you've never seen before.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Well, let me bring in Warren Mowry, the Republican delegate, also from South Carolina, welcome you to the show. Reverend Jesse Jackson’s response to the inclusive message, and especially of Colin Powell, was to say that the general is making the speeches, but Trent Lott is making the policy. What’s your reaction to that? And also, could you tell us a little bit about how the Republican delegates have been reacting to — were reacting last night to the protests in the streets?

WARREN MOWRY: Let me just say first that I think Jesse Jackson has made quite a living for himself as a gadfly for the system. There’s no doubt about that. But frankly, I respect his right to make his opinions known. That is, I wanted to echo what what Rick was saying earlier. I think the Republicans are getting away from this attitude, perhaps, that we are going to be rigid on certain issues. I think that you’re seeing an influx of people who are much more open to the debate, if nothing else. But we open our ears, and we have a discussion, in many cases. And we find, when we have divergent viewpoints, that we might agree on quite a bit more than we think. This idea of that we, quite frankly, have gotten the reputation for in the Republican Party of being absolutely stiff-backed on certain debates simply has not helped the solution. And the attitude that we can take in many cases, that we will listen to you, we will — we will state our viewpoints, we will listen to yours, and maybe we can find a common ground, I think, is the attitude that is taking over. Quite frankly, Trent Lott doesn’t make the policy. It’s the people at the grassroots, like Rick and me, who make the policy.

RICK BELTRAM: That’s right. We pass resolutions at our county conventions, that go to state conventions, that come up here to the national convention. And one thing about Colin Powell, his speech was not previewed ahead of time, and he had full latitude to speak on what he wanted to. And I find it a little offensive that anyone should say that a great American hero like Colin Powell would be taking speeches from somebody else that wrote it for him.

AMY GOODMAN: Let’s talk about the racial composition of the Republican Party and the economic breakdown. The studies show, or the polls of the delegates show — we’re talking more than 2,000 delegates — more than 83% white, 4% African American, 3% Latino. Economically, I believe, one in five delegates is a millionaire. What is the problem here?

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: That’s according to The New York Times poll that they took on the delegates.

WARREN MOWRY: Well, all I can say, if you’re talking about one in five being a millionaire, they must have missed us.

RICK BELTRAM: Yeah, must have missed us, that’s right.

WARREN MOWRY: But in all candor, that is another problem. I can tell you, in South Carolina, that it’s kind of interesting to talk to Blacks individually. We do not have a great deal of participation by Blacks in South Carolina. And, obviously, we have a mushrooming Hispanic population, as well. Ten years ago, it wasn’t even on the charts, and now there’s an estimate in Greenville County, and we are the largest county in South Carolina, that about 10% of our population is Hispanic. So, this is an issue that we are going to have to face. And to be able to get the Republican voice heard, we are going to have to reach out and and make ourselves more accessible. I will tell you, though, that it’s sort of interesting. If you talk to large groups of Blacks, in many cases, they hear “Republican,” and that creates a preconceived notion that you’ve got nothing we want to hear. But if you take Republican issues, in many cases, and talk about them individually, without identification with party, in many cases, they agree with us. And this is what I’m talking about earlier, not being this — this party of insisting, for example, on abortion, “Oh, you do an abortion, you’re going to hell,” or something like that. Being able to speak rationally is usually the way to communicate best, and that’s what we’re trying to do at this point.

RICK BELTRAM: I’d like to weigh in on that just very quickly. I actually have joined the NAACP myself. And as Warren is saying, the outreach is very important. I think we’ve changed our strategy a little bit. Instead of asking Blacks and Latinos to come to us, we’re going into their venues and having conversations in their areas.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: Of course, the Confederate flag issue — 

WARREN MOWRY: Yes.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: — was a big issue in that state.

WARREN MOWRY: Sure.

JUAN GONZÁLEZ: And that sort of reopened lots of old wounds and created much polarization in your state. What impact did that have, do you think, on the party in South Carolina?

WARREN MOWRY: The irony is — and this is something that I want to bring up — people forget who the governor was in 1962 when the Confederate flag went up on top of the state House. It was Democrat Senator Fritz Hollings. At that time, he was governor. And no one has ever called him to task on exactly why he did not come out for that or removal of the flag, or what have you. Yes, it was a polarizing issue, and and it was a disturbing thing. I must tell you, I’m a native Southerner. I was born and raised in South Carolina. Most of my family is from the South. However — and this is not something I broadcast too much to some people — one of my great-grandfathers fought for the Union at Gettysburg. So, I am not an atypical Southerner. There were many families that had people fighting on each side of the battle. But I’m in an interesting position in that I can see each side of the issue. It’s unfortunate that we’ve had groups like the KKK. And I can tell you that there is a near-universal despising of the KKK in South Carolina. Unfortunately, even if you have two or three that might protest, they are the ones that are going to get the attention.

AMY GOODMAN: The traditions, though, that continue. You have, just earlier this year, a complaint filed with the Justice Department by a group of South Carolina voters saying that the South Carolina Republican Party deliberately closed polling places in Black areas —

WARREN MOWRY: No, no.

AMY GOODMAN: — during the last two presidential primaries.

WARREN MOWRY: Let me — let me tell you about that.

AMY GOODMAN: South Carolina is apparently the only state where political parties pay for and administer their primaries without supervision or oversight by the state elections board.

WARREN MOWRY: Oh, no, there is — there is oversight. And I will tell you — 

AMY GOODMAN: Warren Mowry, Republican delegate.

WARREN MOWRY: I will tell you why the — where that came from, because that was us. A large number of those precincts were consolidated. They were not closed, but they were consolidated in Greenville County. And the reason for that is because these things cost money. The state election commission or the county election commissions pay about $100 a day for poll workers to come out. We had over 600 volunteers to open the doors, to man the polls and keep them open 12 hours a day. To think that there was a conspiracy to systematically close down precincts presupposes that we had organization. And that, in all candor, was part of our problem. We were not as well organized as we should have been.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, the facts and figures in Williamsburg County, 60% Black polling places —

WARREN MOWRY: Yes.

AMY GOODMAN: — only five of 32 precincts were open.

WARREN MOWRY: Mm-hmm. This was — there was Justice Department oversight on this entire event.

RICK BELTRAM: Yeah, the lawsuit was actually settled, when they were satisfied that enough polls were open to allow access to everybody. Now, in Spartanburg County, where I’m from, we had all 87 voting locations wide open — 

WARREN MOWRY: Yeah.

RICK BELTRAM: — for the whole day.

WARREN MOWRY: Rick had — Rick was fortunate, in a way, in that Spartanburg County had a general election, or in certain areas that they had to deal with, so they were able to open polls through the county election commission. We were not.

AMY GOODMAN: I would be remiss if I didn’t raise an issue that is very close to home for us. Our technical director, Errol Maitland, is not here today because he was beaten by police in New York when he was covering the Patrick Dorismond funeral. Now, the reason I bring him up and why he’s relevant in this conversation is that a number of us here have spent time in Spartanburg, South Carolina, because Errol’s son, Douglas Fischer, was killed there by a security guard in the parking lot outside of a Best Buy. I bet you know this story.

RICK BELTRAM: Yes, I know the story, right.

AMY GOODMAN: It’s a well-known story in South Carolina. We saw another recent killing by a security guard of a Black man in Michigan, that many people came out in the streets and protested about. But this issue, both in Errol’s son’s case, Douglas Fischer, a young man in his early twenties, a college student, killed by the security guard, who was never charged — this happened just a few years ago — and, in general, this issue of police brutality with impunity. Your comments on it? And I’d also like to include Steve in this, son of Rick Beltram, a Republican delegate. Warren Mowry also here, Republican delegate.

RICK BELTRAM: OK, Warren, why don’t you fire off first?

WARREN MOWRY: Well, I’m not terribly familiar with the facts of the case, but as I understand it, it was — when you say security guard, you automatically bring to mind the idea of some fellow wearing a uniform and a gun. And that was not the case. As I understand it, it was loss prevention-type people, who were all dressed in civilian clothes, who were employed by the store. And simply, according to the media reports, as I remember them — and this is a couple years ago, I believe — 

RICK BELTRAM: Yeah, several years.

WARREN MOWRY: — chased him out of the store and tried to subdue him. And a struggle ensued, and he did die as a result of that.

AMY GOODMAN: He was put in a chokehold, and he died.

WARREN MOWRY: OK.

RICK BELTRAM: Well, I must tell you that the sheriff’s department in our county — and in South Carolina, sheriff’s department is tantamount to the police department — is a very, very professional police department. Sheriff Coffey down there is excellent. A complete investigation was done. Nothing was left uncovered. And there was no guilt at all found to even bring an indictment against the security guard.

AMY GOODMAN: This issue, though, of police or security activity that goes unpunished is one of the issues that brought many people out into the streets. And, Steve, I’d like you to address this.

STEVE BELTRAM: As far as police brutality goes, I think that we do need to work toward holding police more accountable for what they do. In fact, last night, saw some police jumping on a guy, about eight people. And I went over and tried to take pictures of it. And I asked the cop — you know, I was about to take a picture of his badge number on his shirt. The cop next to him covered up his badge number, which I’m aware is extremely illegal. They have to let us do that. So, I said, “Sir, you have to let me take a picture of your badge number. Can I please have a picture?” Then he proceeded to cover it himself. I tried to take another picture when he wasn’t looking, get around and get a quick snap. And he turned fast enough, and the cop next to him slammed me with his bicycle and pushed me back, said, “You do that again, and I’m going to arrest you.” And I said, “Sir, I’d like to see his badge number. I’m aware that it’s my right to do that. You’re breaking the law.” And they just kept threatening arrest. And finally, I got his badge number and wrote it down, and I’m going to be trying to deal with that today.

AMY GOODMAN: I also saw a police officer yesterday right at Spruce and Broad, where — one of the sites of shutting down, trying to prevent the delegates from getting in, where police first used their bicycles as weapons, pushing them into the crowd, and as they were pushing them, saying to the protesters, “Get off our bikes,” and then actually taking their batons and beating up one of the protesters.

STEVE BELTRAM: That’s —

RICK BELTRAM: And I think you’re going to find, no matter where you are, in big crowds — I mean, there’s a lot of people in this town right now — that you’re going to find some isolated problems. But I guess the moral of the story, Steven, I’ll have to get you off the street a little earlier tonight.

STEVE BELTRAM: Well, I’m leaving this afternoon.

AMY GOODMAN: Steve, will you be on the convention floor at all in these four days? You’ve been in the streets until now.

STEVE BELTRAM: Yes, I went into a reception the very first day and spoke with people about the death penalty and things, but I have not been on the convention floor now.

RICK BELTRAM: He has had full access to our delegation to be able to have opened conversations with everybody from our delegation, including a lot of the elected officials.

AMY GOODMAN: And your response to the corporate parties that are feting the delegates?

STEVE BELTRAM: Well, it’s kind of interesting. I’m aware that, you know, over 66 corporations have given over $50,000 each to the Republicans and the Democrats, so I think that’s an issue that — you know, corporate control of politics is definitely an issue. I think we need to get the money out of it.

AMY GOODMAN: Well, on that note, I want to thank you all for being with us.

RICK BELTRAM: Well, thank you.

AMY GOODMAN: Rick and Steve Beltram, father and son. Rick Beltram, Republican delegate from Spartanburg, South Carolina. Steve Beltram, one of the protesters in the streets of Philadelphia.

STEVE BELTRAM: By any chance, can I mention the organizations that I work with?

AMY GOODMAN: Yes.

STEVE BELTRAM: I work with SEAC, the Student Environmental Action Coalition. You can find them at SEAC.org. And the STARC, which is the Student Alliance to Reform Corporations. They’re at corp.org.

AMY GOODMAN: Thank you. And Warren Mowry, a Republican delegate from South Carolina and head of his district. You are listening to Pacifica Radio’s Democracy Now!, live from Philadelphia. When we come back, Spearhead. Stay with us.